How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks
How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks, breaks down an actor's journey, one topic at a time. Join award-winning actor, writer and host Robert Peterpaul alongside industry talent and experts as they discuss how to build a successful career as a performer and beyond in the entertainment industry. From inspirational casting stories to practical advice on the craft of acting, tune in to expand your skill set and book that role.
Get cast today at castingnetworks.com.
How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks
Tony Goldwyn (Scandal): Why Actors Should Embrace Discomfort & More
Tony Goldwyn (Ghost, Scandal, and Oppenheimer) joins How We Role to share his journey from struggling with anxiety to finding authentic presence in his work. The actor, producer and director offers multi-perspectives on an actor's journey, giving insights into the benefits of embracing uncertainty and how digging deeper can set you free.
Goldwyn is an actor, director and producer. His latest feature directing project, Ezra, with Bobby Cannavale and Robert DeNiro, was released by Bleecker Street Films. Goldwyn made his feature directorial debut with A Walk on the Moon. The film premiered at Sundance and received a National Board of Review Award for Excellence in Independent Filmmaking. Other feature directing credits: Conviction, starring Hilary Swank and Sam Rockwell which was awarded the Freedom of Expression honor from the National Board of Review; The Last Kiss and Someone Like You. His many acting credits include Oscar-winning Oppenheimer, ABC's Scandal and the cult-classic Ghost.
Goldwyn’s New York theater credits include Tony and Olivier Award-winner The Inheritance, directed by Stephen Daldry; Ivo van Hove’s Network with Bryan Cranston; the Broadway revival of Promises, Promises; Holiday at Circle in the Square; The Water’s Edge and Spike Heels at Second Stage Theater; The Dying Gaul at the Vineyard Theater; The Sum of Us at the Cherry Lane Theatre, for which he won an Obie Award and Digby at Manhattan Theatre Club.
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Follow Host, Actor and Producer Robert Peterpaul (Amazon's Sitting in Bars with Cake, The Art of Kindness podcast) on Instagram @robpeterpaul and learn more at robertpeterpaul.com.
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Hi, I'm Tony Goldwyn and I am six foot one inch, and you're listening to how we Roll.
Robert Peterpaul:When it comes to working in entertainment, there's a lot of hows, and they all boil down to how we navigate this wild industry. While how we follow our dreams is uncertain, how we roll along the way is in our hands. Welcome to how we Roll, a podcast for actors by Casting Networks. Hi friend, thank you for tuning in. This conversation is one where I really sit back and listen. I hope you find it as inspiring as I did. Dare I say it was quite scandalous. Today's guest is Tony Goldwyn.
Robert Peterpaul:Tony Goldwyn is an actor, director and producer who cut his teeth in the theater. His acting credits include cult classics like Ghost I'm making pottery right now Oscar-winning pictures like Christopher Nolan's, oppenheimer and, of course, the binge-worthy ABC series Scandal. He is currently starring on a mainstay show that is a bucket list gig for most of us actors Law Order Bum bum. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Although he may be known for lighting up the screen, goldwyn's first love appears to be theater. With projects like the Tony and Olivier winner, the Inheritance Network with Bryan Cranston, the Broadway revival of Promises, promises and many more, goldwyn eventually pivoted into directing, debuting with A Walk on the Moon starring Diane Lane. The film premiered at Sundance and received a National Board of Review Award for Excellence in Independent Filmmaking. Other feature directing credits are Conviction, starring Hilary Swank and Sam Rockwell, the Last Kiss with Zach Braff and Rachel Bilson, and Someone Like you with Ashley Judd and Hugh Jackman. The latest project Tony sat at the helm of was Ezra, where he directed Bobby Cannavale and the one and only Robert De Niro.
Robert Peterpaul:Tony and I dive deep into a conversation about embracing your fears and staying present as an actor two very tough things to do. He also touches on his iconic career, which I forgot to mention, includes Hacks love, that TV show and being the voice of Tarzan. Tony also kindly answers some listener questions. Yes, that's right, you can submit yours via our social media channels or the link here in the show notes. This is how we roll with actor Tony Goldwyn Right off the bat here. I truly admire not only this gigantic career you've carved out for yourself, but the way you just seem to lead with kindness in this industry.
Robert Peterpaul:I really appreciate that, and you know I interviewed you on the red carpet once and at the Thanksgiving play on Broadway and you were so kind to everybody and, yeah, I was a little Muppet in the corner and you stopped to talk to fans, and so I just want to thank you for that, because I think that's really important in this industry. Oh, good, well, I agree, I do too. Thank you for mentioning that, of course. So, generally, we have a topic on here that we try and break down for actors. But, again, since you're kind of this treasure trove of knowledge, we're going to try and cover a lot of ground here today, from acting to directing, and we're going to have fun, all with the intention, of course, of getting sort of like tangible tidbits for our acting friends. Great, so get ready.
Robert Peterpaul:I think we'll call them Goldwyn Nuggets of Wisdom, golden Nuggets of Wisdom. Okay, that's intimidating to me, but okay, you're going to be great Going down, I guess, back for a bit down the road. Just to start, you have this legendary family in Hollywood that I loved learning more about. Of course, I knew the name, but you decided to start in the theater. So I'm just wondering what was the first valuable lesson you feel like you learned as an actor from those early days?
Tony Goldwyn:Well, professionally the first important lesson, I would say I learned that it took me many years to understand what the lesson was. I got my first job at the Williamstown Theater Festival, which, as people may remember, is a summer theater festival in the Berkshires in Massachusetts, and for many years, and particularly when I started out, was like the sort of the place to be if you wanted to. You know, as an older actor who sort of mentored me. When you know, when I've really decided I wanted to pursue this, he's he. I was in college and he was giving me. He said well, if you want to, if you want to be an actor, the first place you go is go to Williamstown. So I tried to audition and I managed to get in. And you know, I was in the non-equity company at Williamstown and my my first. It was my first summer there because it's where I ended up getting my equity card.
Tony Goldwyn:My first summer there I was, I think, I was helping with rehearsal on a play that I was not in. I remember Frank Langella was starring in this play I literally can't even remember which, what play but one of the other actors hadn't shown up yet for rehearsal, so I was standing in learning their blocking and stuff, as, which is something that, as, non-equity, people were supposed to do. And, um, I was reading the lines and doing it and this wonderful actor who just it was a dear friend who recently died, named George Morphogan, was also in the cast. I think it might've been Sherlock Holmes or something they were doing. And George took me outside and he said Tony, I want you to know something. He said you're, you're actually quite gifted. He said, but you're, you're making a terrible mistake. And I said what? I was literally just reading, trying to help out, but I was obviously trying to act. And he said you're leaving yourself out of the room. And I said oh, okay. He said no, you need to think about this. When you work, you leave yourself out of the room and honestly, to be honest with you, I had no idea what he was talking about. I just knew I was doing something very wrong, but I've realized it was such an important lesson he was trying to teach me about learning to bring yourself into the work and not think, oh, I'm supposed to be something other than myself.
Tony Goldwyn:Now I'm playing a character, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing this now, and now I need to. You know what? What's going on with me is not really relevant. I need to now do something else on top of me. Yeah, it's a hard lesson to learn. You know, in some actors, I suppose just have it naturally were able to do that, but it took me a minute to to start and it's been an evolution. You know, I'm still reminding myself of that lesson, but I felt like that was key lesson number one working in the professional theater.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, I think that's cool. The key to life, I think well, what do I know, but is trying to stay curious and learning. And if you're not learning, you know you might be six feet underground. I don't know, but you're very open about something that I think, as we talk about bringing ourselves to the role, makes it a little bit tricky, which is that anxiety you felt early on. You know the pressure that you felt on yourself you've talked about and that's very relatable. Honestly, how do you feel like you stopped that from stopping you?
Tony Goldwyn:Well, part of it. These are complicated questions. Uh, because it's an evolution, I got a lot of them. It never stops.
Tony Goldwyn:But yeah, I remember that horrible thing that people say to you when you're young is like just be yourself. I remember literally thinking who the fuck am I? I don't know who I am. What does that mean? I, I don't know who I am. What does that mean? Be myself? I don't know what that means. So it was God. It was very stressful. I hated that phrase. In a way I preferred George's. It was a bit more esoteric I suppose, but you know you're leaving yourself out At least. I didn't know what that meant, but it made more sense to me when I came to understand that Because we're particularly, I think, through our at least me I can only speak to myself, particularly through my 20s. You know, I was trying, I was discovering kind of what that meant, like who I was, who I, uh I literally it's very difficult to put into words because it's a feeling that you have where you're like oh.
Tony Goldwyn:I can be present. You know other teachers would say they remind us that we're enough, like just be. I mean it's, it's a lifelong thing. I'm sorry I'm repeating myself, but it's a very tricky, elusive thing that some people have as small children. They just never let go of it and they're like gifted in some way, but for a lot of us it's a very elusive thing to understand. Oh, I can just be present.
Robert Peterpaul:And uh, god, yeah, no, I think it's always interesting, especially if you watch back yourself tapes, which is a unique torture, and I'm glad you probably don't have to deal with that anymore.
Tony Goldwyn:I have those when I started out, so yeah, it's wild.
Robert Peterpaul:You're like the director, the lighting designer, all this stuff and you watch them back and sometimes it's almost more interesting to watch yourself as you're like about to start the scene and it feels like some of us struggle with maybe like putting something on the second we go, versus just coming from that natural place of of being. And I think that's what you're touching on and what I've appreciated you saying too, is now, as a director, it's what you look for. I think in actors, you look for their perspective versus them trying to give you what you want, like what they think you want Absolutely.
Tony Goldwyn:I mean, the key to it, if it's of any use to anyone to me is like when I work now I still have that same feeling when I start to work on something, that I don't know what the hell I'm doing and what is this, and I don't know what this is, and it feels stiff and forced and I don't know what to do with it. And how do I find myself in this? You know, you still have all of those feelings and the thing of like I'm not really right for this, someone else should play this part, and I and I've come to make peace with that as just the beginning of the process. So so, perhaps when I was younger, because of that anxiety maybe I've never articulated this before, but because of that anxiety that we all feel when handed a role that is unfamiliar, perhaps when I was younger, I leapt immediately to thinking I needed I had an answer, like. In other words, I was like, oh, I don't know what this is.
Tony Goldwyn:So I have an idea in my head of what it's supposed to be. So I'm going to do that, I'm going to try and perform this thing, because I think I kind of know what this is. I have an idea of what this is, so then I perform it, but I haven't really done any of the work to ask the questions of what is this? And be okay with not knowing what this is. So I went immediately from step A to step Z, and so step Z was a manufactured cerebral intellectual thing and I robbed myself of allowing myself into the piece. So the answer is to be okay with not knowing first of all.
Robert Peterpaul:And to just ask the question like what is this?
Tony Goldwyn:I don't know what this is. So, like, let's start with what am I saying. Do I understand what I'm saying? Do I understand who I'm talking to? Like, who is this person? Like, where am I, where's this place?
Tony Goldwyn:And to start asking those questions of the given circumstances, but don't insist on an answer that that's huge. Like, don't hire an answer, just be okay, like not knowing. And that's how you begin to be present as an actor, as being like, hmm, I don't know what the hell this is. Yeah, so you know. And as you get a bit more experience, you work, you start to be maybe a little quicker and being okay. Those questions are like well, maybe it's this or maybe it's that, or maybe I'm this, but maybe you know.
Tony Goldwyn:But mainly to be okay, not knowing. And then, even whether you're working on stage or you know in front of the camera, particularly when you work in front of the camera, you generally don't have much rehearsal, so you have to do all that work by yourself before you even start. And then, when the camera's rolling, you need to forget everything you decided and be very present and be like well, I know I made all those decisions and I was getting the thought maybe I'd do it this way, but I don't know. Let's kind of see what happens. That's what we're getting into other. Oh, we can go wherever that's really cool.
Robert Peterpaul:No, I think I addressed what you said at all you did. I think you might not realize it, but I really do think that's going to be so helpful to people because these things are hard to articulate. But we're trying to do that on this little podcast because I feel like they're important to talk about. You know it's it's living in that discomfort I mean, first of all, being on stage. There's a lot of that. You don't know if someone's about to cough in the audience. You don't know if you're doing the show network and you're outside someone's going to scream something at you. In to one of your first jobs, I think was with Denzel Washington, and a lot of our listeners are trying to break into that co-star circuit, maybe on Law Order, get that badge Fully. Kind of realizing now that you are a top-notch creative that actors could be nervous to work with themselves. Do you have any advice on sort of not getting in your own head when you're working with people that you admire?
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, it happens to me all the time. I mean, again, it's that same thing with being comfortable, being uncomfortable. It's fun. I mean I like I the last movie I directed it was, you know, robert De Niro was in it, and when I first was working with Robert De Niro I was like holy shit.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah Ezra on Paramount Plus. I believe De yeah Ezra on.
Tony Goldwyn:Paramount Plus, I believe, I don't know, it's on Amazon. It's called Ezra. You can get it now, but it was in the theaters on Memorial Day. But you know it still happens to me every time. So, and you know I work with my idols or you work with some very famous person and you're like it happens every job I do.
Tony Goldwyn:So it's like being the new kid in school, kind of, is the same sort of feeling and you just have to have a sense of humor about it and be like, okay, my fear brain is clicking in and freaking me out and you learn to just stop listening to that. It's like, okay, that's happening. Here's what it is. There's like our fear brain whatever that is, our amygdala, whatever it is creates a scenario, tells us a story that we should be afraid that someone's going to judge us, that we're not going to be doing a good enough job, all things are going to go wrong, it's going to be a disaster, whatever that is that we have. And you learn that that's not the brain you should be listening to. There's another voice that is a calmer voice. That is your real self. It's totally got this and there's not even need to worry about anything.
Tony Goldwyn:It's like social anxiety, it's all the same thing, and so what I've learned to do is, when that happens, I just go oh yeah, okay, that's happening. I know that's bullshit, I know that's not how this is. No, it's like noise. So I'm like okay, the noise is there. Stop with the noise. How about I know that if I just let the noise happen, I'll be just fine? And why don't I just focus on the task at hand, which is, um, if I'm working with Denzel or whoever, whoever it is with De Niro, it's like there's a job to do here. Bob needs my help here and I have a job to do so.
Tony Goldwyn:Let me just do my job and I'll just hopefully that noise will go away, and it always does. It always does. It's like when you go to a party and you're dreading going there. You're like I don't know anybody. People are going to me there, what am I gonna do? You walk in and then you engage in a conversation. You're like what was I worried about? It was fine, like that was a nice person, I was talking.
Tony Goldwyn:You know, you always those anxieties are ever present and you just have to learn to not listen to them. There's a different voice and then that other voice becomes dominant and um, that's your true self, and so, uh, that's a um, a constant problem that never goes away for an actor. Every time I go on stage, practically my knees buckle, and I have these moments sometimes before I make an entrance, where I'm like, okay, I'm going to walk out there, my legs are not going to support me, I'm going to fall down, I'm not going to remember anything I'm supposed to do, I'm not going to be able to breathe, and I have a panic attack. And so now I go yeah right, whatever, just breathe and shut up Power through?
Robert Peterpaul:No, that's relatable Like let it be there.
Tony Goldwyn:Don't, don't be like, oh my God, that's. You just know that voice is is not a valid it's, it's, it's, um, it's not real. It is's what I said those voices are it's not real, it's a self-created thing. That is just a part of our evolution. That it's not real. What's real is what's happening right now in front of you.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, not it's all fear-based I think that that's the fear-based end. So it's like choosing the love for what you do, maybe over the fear of not doing it correctly.
Tony Goldwyn:Which, what even, is correct yeah, don't even get in the freaking argument with it, don't even engage. It's like if we're going for an audition. How many times we've been like, oh my god, what are you? That person in there's really good, and then I don't know were you watching me yesterday?
Robert Peterpaul:yeah, no, seriously, like well yeah.
Tony Goldwyn:Seriously, the trick is to not engage with it. It's like, yeah, whatever, okay, my heart's beating really fast or I'm sweating, okay. So what I do is I breathe, I just try and do the antidotes and I'm like all right, I'm just going to let that be there, I'm not going to fight it. Okay, wow, weird, I'm having this physical reaction. The cool thing is oh wow, I'm just going to let that be there, I'm not going to fight it. Okay, wow, weird, I'm having this physical reaction. The cool thing is oh wow, I'm having a physical reaction. That's happening. Oh, what is that? That's interesting.
Robert Peterpaul:Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you're not giving it power, you're just acknowledging it.
Tony Goldwyn:You can't imbue it with meaning. It's happening. You're having like a fight or flight reflex, like even if you get interested in that, like wow, that's interesting, that's actually. That is actually happening to me physically. Yeah, my brain spinning about what it means is is not real. That's not actually happening, that's a creation of moment that's taking me out of the present moment. But I had it yesterday. I was working and, uh, I was shooting where I was doing Law and Order and you know it happens all the time.
Tony Goldwyn:So we started to roll and I started to have that kind of slight like whatever anxiety or something, and I just went oh, what's actually happening, right, this second to me, I'm feeling a little agita, or whatever it was. So I was like, oh, that's real. So I didn't fight it and I allowed it to. Maybe that's interesting, maybe that's something to explore, maybe that's something that is useful in this scene, like maybe that's a part of let's just let that be there and see if it's useful to me. And A all of a sudden it diminished. I welcomed it. And B there was this aspect of that that helped me raise the stakes for the scene that I was doing and it was quite useful and it was fresh because it was a little different than what I hadn't thought about that.
Robert Peterpaul:Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. You're not blowing up that balloon.
Tony Goldwyn:Either. We've spent so much time going. Oh god, I'm nervous.
Robert Peterpaul:Oh shit, of course you are yeah, but let it be maybe excitement and I also think we're wrong ourselves about so many things in a day mentally, all these thoughts. So why would we be right about these negative things about ourselves? Sometimes that helps me to course correct is like. I know I'm wrong about so much, so why am I listening to this?
Tony Goldwyn:you know you generally are it's like anything I know it sort of gets back to that thing.
Tony Goldwyn:It's related to the thing of, uh, when you look at a scene, you I know what this wants to be, I know how to do this. It says I think that I'm like, wait a minute, hold on, whoa, I don't know. Maybe there's a possibility it might go in that direction, but I don't know. So getting back to the actually approaching material, one thing that I find useful again, we're jumping around, but it's not unrelated to this is when I look at a new piece of material, young actors particularly go right to how they think it should be done I know how this is done and I'm going to do that and then they skip over all the discovery. It's sort of general, because it's it's sort of performed, because I know how to do this. I'm mad, or whatever it is. You know, we just have an instinct. It doesn't mean instincts are wrong or invalid. They may be great. But if you're more, I now go, oh, I have a feeling like maybe that's the direction it goes. But before I go even to that, what am I saying? Do I understand the words that I'm saying? Do I understand what I'm actually telling you? Just on a literal level, do I understand what I'm saying? Often I'm like I don't actually know what that word means, or I don't know what that is referring to. Exactly that. What am I talking? What's he talking? Why is he talking about that? What does that place that he's referring to? What's that thing that I'm referring to? I don't actually know this. I better think about that. So I just go with, like, what am I saying? Yeah, and what is that person saying to me? Do I understand that? And when I get to that level that's a lot, man, that's that's something useful.
Tony Goldwyn:Then I can immediately start. If I'm interacting with you, reading with you, I can just communicate what I'm saying. I don't need to perform anything. I can at least just start with that and that's active automatically. And then what is going to happen in our interaction? I'm going to have a whole experience of reading the scene with you, just based on understanding what I'm saying to you and what you're saying to me literally, what does it mean?
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, and then I'll get another layer of like oh well, I felt like we're in this kind of a place. Maybe this is what our relationship is, or everything like huh, and instead of we as actors, we go to like the emotion immediately. How do I feel about this? How do I feel Like I don't know? Let that be fluid, let that there might be 200 possibilities of how you feel and you can try a different. You know, don't play the result. Don't get so fixated on how and the result. That's how you do that. Just slow down, start with what I'm saying. I find that very useful and it helps me be present in what I'm doing in the early stages.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, that's so interesting. I've talked to some television actors that will say I mean some of them honestly, it seems write out emotions to track all the scenes they're doing that day or the scenes for one episode. Is there anything you do like that? Do you have like a cheat sheet of what am I doing? What am I doing, or is it like on set you just kind of have that same process you just described.
Tony Goldwyn:No, I don't. Part of it is. You know, I'm a pretty experienced now, yeah, so a lot of the homework that I used to do, writing it down and making notes about stuff. Intuitively I ask all those questions without writing them down, because I kind of know what questions I want to ask in my preparation. For me, the trap is of writing a lot of things down and creating a score for myself. This is just me. It can freeze things and can set things that I want to, that I want to remain fluid. It suddenly something that is in the flow becomes fixed in a way. That's not helpful to me. So if I say I mean I would never do it with emotion, For me that would be a disaster Because again, for me and every actor works differently, so you got to find your own way. But for me, to set an emotion means I'm then playing the result and I'm playing an emotion which is, for me, never good.
Tony Goldwyn:More like what am I doing? Like, what am I after what More? Like, what am I doing? Like, what am I after? What am I? What am I? For me, it's like, what am I saying? Like, what does this mean? And then, what am I trying to achieve? What am I trying to get from? What am I doing in an active way? And I don't even. You know I struggled a lot with like action analysis, writing down. I've tried everything but of like writing, oh, this is what I'm doing, I know what my action is here and people, some people, love doing that stuff for me. It always got me stuck. So you know, I spend a lot of time preparing, I working alone, and it's I just keep it fluid. I just go over it over and over and over and over it and I, you know I now have this app that I use that runs lines with me.
Robert Peterpaul:Oh, rehearsal pro.
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, it's a. What is it called Cold read? It's called cold read, oh yeah, but just doing it and not even thinking about it, just going. Every time I do it it'll raise a question like, oh, I don't really understand what this is about, I don't really understand what my relationship with this person is. Or I wonder, if I, like it'll get me thinking about, like what happened? You know, where am I coming from, what, what, how important is this to me? You know, those questions we ask? Or it feels a little vague, a little general, like it feels a little the stakes feel very low to me. So what? Why is this important?
Tony Goldwyn:to me what, what happened before? You know the kind of all those given circumstances. So in just reviewing it I end up asking myself over and over, and over and over again these questions. But I don't necessarily have an answer.
Tony Goldwyn:It's like, um, I always look at it like it's like peeling an onion and you never get to the end. Ever. There's never an answer, never there's a oh, there's another layer to peel away. Oh, that, yeah, that made sense to me. Huh, where's that going to lead me to the next question, and what I find then? When I am working in rehearsal or with, and when I'm on set, I then can forget everything and have no opinion about anything. But if I've done enough work on my own and an unconscious level, I have gained an understanding.
Robert Peterpaul:Does that make?
Tony Goldwyn:any sense, as opposed to going. I've got my, I know what I'm doing and I've got my notes and I'm going to it's. That's to me. For me personally, I'm still stuck in a cerebral stage and I need personally to be in a stage where I can forget everything and hopefully be prepared enough to just be like I don't know. Yeah, but if I've done, enough work, I'm, like, ready, and sometimes I have to look at my lines and go. You know I drill my fucking lines.
Robert Peterpaul:Well, I'm glad you mentioned the app, because we all need. We all have different hacks for doing that.
Tony Goldwyn:Personally, I need to know my lines so well that I just don't even think about them. I need to know the words so well that I can't, I don't, I could. They just come out, you know, and I still have to like when I look at it, you know. Or if there's a reason I can't remember something, it's because I don't understand it enough, like why do I constantly keep forgetting that line? Or why do I keep getting that wrong? Because I don't understand it, that line, or why do I keep getting that wrong Because I don't understand it? And so then I have to go ask myself a lot of questions like well, I don't understand it. What does it make sense to me? I thought I understand it, but I guess I don't. Anyway, so that's for me. I need to come to work so prepared that I can forget everything and not have any opinion about what I'm going to do.
Robert Peterpaul:I appreciate you sharing all that. We had a lot of listeners and Casting Networks members write in that were excited to ask you questions, and a lot of them had to do with your method or your process, but one I think that we can kind of step into from here was from an amazing listener named Jade Rushing. Hello, jade, thanks for being here. And Jade wants to know what you find to be or I guess found, because obviously you're a vet at this to be the most challenging aspect of acting, of your process. Like, what do you find to be the most challenging? Sorry?
Tony Goldwyn:that's a hard question to answer. What do I find to be the most challenging? Well, yeah, the most challenging thing is to be absolutely present with what's happening in any given moment. That's what we are striving for, the transcendent experience of being totally present. And that requires a lot For me I can't speak for anybody else.
Tony Goldwyn:For me, that requires a tremendous amount of preparation so that I can forget everything and be present, and I rarely achieve it. I can admit, you know those moments where I feel completely in flow and dialed in and anything can happen and I'm just with you and not ahead of myself or behind myself. Yeah, those are rare, fleeting moments. You know that's what I'm always striving to achieve, a hundred percent of the time. And I guess I get, I'm close to it a lot. You know what I mean and I have to give myself a lot of a break to go. Well, no, you know, you have to be willing to, you have to very much accept that it's a rarefied experience. You know, every artist is trying to find that transcendence and we, most artists, even the greatest artists, if you ask them, they'll go.
Tony Goldwyn:Oh, I never get there, I'm always failing always, but we watch them and the greats you're like, oh my God. So my job is to hopefully have you have that experience of me. But in doing that I'm just trying to get as close as I can to being present and free, and that is the most challenging thing.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, it's like that's why all the gamblers are still at the slot machines. It's just for that one big win. You know that one high you can experience and you've had so many highs in your career that I didn't even realize I had no idea you were the voice of Tarzan first of all, which is kind of legendary, and I keep seeing that meme of Tarzan. I don't know if you've seen this. Have you seen it going around where he's holding Jane and also midair and everyone's like how is he holding the vine? There's like this one shot of Tarzan I encourage you to look it up after this that everybody's sharing these days.
Robert Peterpaul:But it's no shock to me that a lot of listeners wanted to know about Scandal and I think to stop there for one second. It matches what you were just saying with that preparation, because I imagine being on a Shonda Rhimes show comes with its own sort of like acting techniques and things that you learn, especially with those big iconic monologues she has and her cadence. Is there anything you can share from that experience as far as what you feel like it really helped you achieve as an actor?
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, that was a very interesting technical. That helped me a lot working on Scandal, because Shonda required us to be word perfect. Her sort of policy with us is you know, I'm totally open for notes or ideas or comments or thoughts ahead of time, but she does not like any changes on set and a lot of times when you work on a film or you work on certain types of material, certain screenwriters are very open to improvisation and you know, others are very meticulous, more like working in the theater, and Shonda is one of those writers, meticulous, more like working in the theater, and Sean does one of those writers. So, uh, and on scandal, she was particularly obsessed with us speaking extremely quickly. She, for the first season she was constantly emailing us. You have to talk faster, you have to talk faster. The only time this show will ever slow down is when Fitz and Olivia are alone together. Those are the only pauses we allow in this show, and then she would was like a minute, but there's, we had this famous kind of thing of like one minute where we were silent, you know.
Tony Goldwyn:So we had to earn those things and so technically, that required, um, you know, you had to be really super prepared and, uh, do what I said before. You know, I just learned it so that I didn't even have to think about it. You know that didn't mean we didn't get on set and stumble and screw up all the time, and that's the benefit of working on the cameras. You can there's take two and three, but you know we really tried to be. You know you had to be very quick. It's like working on a stylized comedy in the theater. You know where you have to be. You know the rhythm is everything.
Robert Peterpaul:You know it's interesting too. In doing some research I remembered I guess because I knew it at the time that scandal really rose to prominence because of social media, because of Twitter. I think it was Carrie's idea You've spoken about that often to kind of get on Twitter. I know you yourself. Maybe we throw this out into the garbage, this question, but I know you're not as big on social media, you don't seem to be as active. But can you I mean, can you speak to it at all? Because I feel like on this side, a lot of working actors now are being encouraged to have a presence, to create their own content, and I think you could maybe still weigh in, since you are a content creator, as a director and a filmmaker.
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, social media, look, it's also a generational thing. I mean, you know, we did it on Scandal because Carrie had this brilliant idea, and it was when Twitter was just kind of beginning and we became this phenomenon, and so then we built up this massive following. We would live tweet our broadcast twice, you know, east Coast and West Coast every Thursday night for seven years, and we all were very committed to it and we built up these big social media followingsings and we really interacted with our fans a lot. And then Instagram was invented. So we got an Instagram and Facebook and, and you know, it was exhausting, honestly, like it was great, it was really fun, um, but for me, uh, when scandal was over, I was pretty burned out on it, me, uh, when scandal was over, I was pretty burned out on it and it, it, you know I kept it up for a while. Um, but it, I am a fairly private person. So this constant you have to feed the beast. If you're on social media, you really do, and there's a sort of false sense of relationship that people have with you and you have with your followers. Um, that I started feeling it was just a bit exhausting and um, and so that was part one. So I kind of said like I need to take a break. I still stayed on Instagram. I got off Twitter because I also Twitter to me became a very toxic environment, um and um, I just got turned off by it. So I just stayed on Instagram and Instagram I think it's fun and um, um. So I still on Instagram and I still post now and then and I share professionally what I'm doing and I definitely try and share, you know, stay in terms of, like, charitable causes that I'm supporting and stuff.
Tony Goldwyn:There's another aspect on a personal level about social media. It's very performative and that just rubs me. I find that's very dangerous for me. It's a little toxic, it's too strong a word. It is, um, it's hazardous for me. You know the, the performative nature. It's a very curated thing and we're putting out something. Everything is presented in a way that feels slightly to me fraudulent and it takes a certain amount of work to go. Okay, no, I'm being authentic, but I'm also being performative because I'm certainly presenting something that's curated to my audience, but it's just like it's, I don't know, it's hazardous to people. Like, be careful, because it is very performative In terms of the profession and people saying you need to be on social media.
Tony Goldwyn:I think to some degree that may be true, so go for it. And I have to admit to younger people, it's very much a part of how younger people communicate and connect with each other and love it. Shit's dangerous man, I'm telling you. It is a very hazardous environment and it is tremendously anxiety-provoking. I find I know for me, but I know for a lot of people and it's dangerous. You know that performative thing. It's like hi, this is me, beautiful and I'm perfect, and I'm this and I'm that. Oh yeah, you fall down that rabbit hole. You know that performative thing. It's like hi, this is me, yeah, beautiful and I'm perfect, and I'm this and I'm that.
Robert Peterpaul:Oh yeah, you fall down that rabbit hole.
Tony Goldwyn:I know I got to do that and it's kind of bullshit too.
Robert Peterpaul:Because you start to compare yourself. You're like I'm sitting at home and this person's at some gala, but meanwhile they were there, you know, a month ago, for a day, and it's just. I understand what you're saying. It's a tricky dance, no one cares?
Tony Goldwyn:honestly, no one cares. I mean, I guess to some degree, if you have a ton of followers and you're an influencer and you're beautiful, and that's all great, it's part of your job, but it's not the job, your work is all that matters. Like when I'm casting something, I don't care, you know, if someone's got a cool following on social media and I look at their stuff and I'm like, oh cool, I get, here's what I dig. If I'm on social, if I go on social media to check you out, if I'm the, I'm casting you which I probably never do but if I do, I get a sense of who you are Really. I'm like look at Robert, oh, I get a vibe of who you really are and I sense that I'm like, oh, that's cool. It's like I spent some time with you and I get a sense of who you are.
Tony Goldwyn:If you're already a big celebrity, if you're already famous and you have a big following and you have a lot of publicity and you're doing a lot of stuff, that is, have a big following and you have a lot of publicity and you're doing a lot of stuff, that is a different story. Your fans want to see you out there and they dig it and they want to be around the fantasy version of Kerry Washington that Kerry puts out. She's got that's a part of her business and she's a genius at it and she works really hard at it. That is a different thing than an aspiring actor feeling they need to be on red carpets because someone's going to think they're more than they are or something I just all that matters is like if you want to have a social media presence, have it. Be authentically you and then do your work, because that's all anybody actually cares about.
Tony Goldwyn:When you come in the room or I see your stuff, I'm like, yeah, you got some game. I'm interested in working with you. Yeah, make any sense.
Robert Peterpaul:No, that's a good reminder. It should all be authentic to you, I think, other than maybe Dolly Parton. That's all I want to see in my news feed. It's. It should just come from you. I mean, it should be what you want out of it too.
Robert Peterpaul:It's a personal thing, like we're saying, but that is something that we get told about a lot, as actors now is like push out your own content, have that going. And I think, especially for the people in this sort of like co-star circuit, it's true and it's interesting to me because now you're on this iconic series Law Order, I don't need to tell you that and you know you're killing it For actors that show such a rite of passage, as I think I mentioned earlier. I'm just wondering, now that you're high on the call sheet, when you have this revolving door of working actors coming in and you have someone playing a dead body, you have somebody coming in there to say will you sign for this, for one line which 200 of us maybe are going in for? That just must be such a full circle, special thing to see. Can you speak to that at all? Like, what's that like for you to kind of see these people coming in on this show that has such a reputation.
Tony Goldwyn:I think they just spoofed it at the SAG Awards this year.
Robert Peterpaul:They had a whole kind of thing about Law Order. Yeah, having these people come in as co-stars and these people that you know are just there for one line, these working actors, I mean, what does it mean for you to see that?
Tony Goldwyn:Well, here's what I'll say which is a bigger point I think it's worth making. First of all, the. You know, one of the best things about being a law and order is the actors that come in to guest star and co-star and do all this. You know, the day players are great, like people are really, really excellent, and what I often feel when I see someone either doing a big role who's very young or doing just a small part, is that they're super important and, um, I really am so admiring of someone who comes in and, um, values their, their. I value the contribution of a person who has one line as much as I do the person who's the main guest star of that episode, or one of our regulars, like it's all what makes something good is that every layer is real and good and excellent.
Tony Goldwyn:And the truth is it's exciting for me because that person, who may be young, who's coming in and doing their first line on television ever, right in a year or two, might be the lead in a show. I may be, you know they might have a big career out of them. And you know I do, I can see it. I go, whoa, you're good, you know, you, you're. So I remember feeling when I started out when I was doing those small things, feeling unimportant and feeling undervalued and being on less good television shows where you'd show up and they'd treat you like a piece of furniture and sort of movie here and act like you weren't important because you didn't have as big a uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, a role and it infuriates me now as, um, I see how important it actually is and you know, when you acknowledge someone's value, then they, like they do great work, like all you have to do is be like I'm happy you're here.
Tony Goldwyn:Like, what do you think? What do you want to do? What do you think about this? Like you know, acknowledge the artistry because it's really hard to come in and do one word, one line. It's very hard.
Tony Goldwyn:It's a that's a real challenge. Being a dead body is not so hard, but but but these are very hard and it's. I just can't believe the way I was treated early on and like how did you even expect me to do a good job? That I had to deal with people's being dismissed and being like treated like I was not important, or that someone else was so much more important than me and I was just like to shut up and go with it. I mean yeah.
Robert Peterpaul:I'm sorry.
Tony Goldwyn:How does an actor do, you know, and so I'm very cognizant now and we were, you know, on skin leaving any background, like when background are good, it's fantastic. Yeah, it's so good when the background are engaged and participating and present and doing their job well, it's so important.
Robert Peterpaul:Because when they're not, it steals the scene. I noticed that on shows when someone's sort of like Well, no, I mean when background are not good, it's a problem, you know.
Tony Goldwyn:So it's a real skill and and a really valued thing. And a lot of again, a lot of really good actors started out doing background work because they were trying to find a way in. And so, you know, I remember, when we did scandal, carrie washington was always, every time we had a big scene with lots of background, she would always stop and applaud the background and congratulate come how fantastic they were and, um, you know, all tried to. I was trying to do that because people hey, people need it and deserve it, but it all matters. So that's what I like to say to anybody who's, like you know, showing up for a small piece of, you know, of a show.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, I appreciate that. I think you learn that in the theater as well. You literally do need every single person to tell the story. And I guess, while we're on the TV guest star circuit, you know I love seeing you on Hacks and I know you're on the new season, so just to touch on that for a second on behalf of all the other actors slash fans out there. What's it like having a partner in scene, a Gene Smart, a scene partner, jean Scene? That's great.
Tony Goldwyn:You know I'd worked with Jean very early in my career. One of my first jobs was guest starring on her show, um um, designing Women, and we did this really amazing episode in the eighties, uh, about AIDS, and it was the very first time AIDS was mentioned on primetime television. Wow, and the show runner, the creator Linda Bloodworth, thomason's mother had died of AIDS that year from a blood transfusion and at that time president Reagan did not even said the word AIDS. So she was like I'm going to write an episode about this. And so I played this friend of the designing women who was had AIDS and was asked them to design his funeral because his family had rejected him.
Tony Goldwyn:It was pretty intense for a sitcom and I played the great part and I and Jean and I, you know, sort of bonded at that time and I, you know, I've seen her over the years sort of whatever 30, whatever years later, if almost 40 years later, you know to do hacks together. Is was so fun and and um, she's you know, gina's really such a great actress and I'm so happy for her having this moment at this stage in her career where she's being fully recognized for the brilliant artist that she is and the writing on that show is so great. It was just. It's just a blast. Everyone's so wonderful blessed.
Robert Peterpaul:Everyone's so wonderful. Well, I'm glad you're being recognized too and that you're at the stage you are because, again, we need good role models in this industry. And, to pivot for a second, you know you're also a role model for directors because you were able to kind of take this different path. You talk a lot about reinventing yourself as an artist and sort of the importance of that, which I appreciate Once you started directing. From an actor perspective, what do you wish you had known earlier, Once you were in that director's seat and watching all the other actors, is there something you wish you had known when you were on the other side?
Tony Goldwyn:And now you're still on the other side. But you know what I mean. It's just again. That's another huge question.
Robert Peterpaul:I love your thoughtfulness. Honestly, yeah, these are pretty big questions.
Tony Goldwyn:What do I wish I had known? I guess I'm going to say it more from an auditioning point of view rather than just an acting point of view. When I started to audition actors, it was revelatory to me. I was super uncomfortable with it at first. I was so apologetic because I know how hard auditioning is and you know I would be like where would you like to sit, are you okay? I'm so stressed out by and one actor finally was like just tell me where to sit, I don't need you decide. Um, but what I really realized, that I wish I had known. There's so many great actors, man, so many wonderful people.
Tony Goldwyn:There's so many great artists out there and there's only one person for every role and so many people who come in do such great work. And it doesn't mean just the fact that you do a great job doesn't mean you're going to get the part. And also there are lots of amazing actors who come in and have shitty auditions. You know come in and they're just like off their game and they're going. I'm like wow, I love that business work, but they were having a bad day.
Robert Peterpaul:Well, that's why I love being a reader.
Tony Goldwyn:It's because you do get to sometimes read out the titans and that took so much pressure off of me when I was like I know there's a million good people are going to be up for this, but here's my take on it. So, after that, when I you know, I fortunately, or unfortunately don't audition much these days, but you know, in the years after I walk on the moon, when I would audition, and even now when I do audition, I'm like I don't know what you, you know, I know there's a million great people for this, but here's my, here's what I'm thinking, you know, as opposed to, I've got to be the one person, I got to be the best. You know, it's a weird alchemy. Casting is this strange alchemy that has to happen. And so that was useful.
Robert Peterpaul:That was useful for us as well. Listening, you know, casting is what we're all about here at Casting Networks, and so we play this little game called Casting Keywords and it's kind of a flash round, and so, basically, I'm going to throw out a statement or a topic surrounding acting, like role preparation, auditioning, and you just please, if you're willing, say the first piece of advice that kind of pops into your head. So it'll be like just a more of a word association, advice, garnering, mining your brilliant brain to get all these other actors in the place where they can do what they love. Okay, are you down to play? Sure, okay. Okay, insert a little music here, maybe the Severance theme song. Do you watch Severance? I do, I love it. Okay, here we go. So the first thing is script analysis. What am I saying? Oh, that's easy. I thought you meant to me. I'm like I don't know. Do I understand what you're saying? Perfect Acting, warmups, meditation.
Tony Goldwyn:Auditions, playgrounds.
Robert Peterpaul:I love that.
Tony Goldwyn:It's like Carol Burnett says getting in the sandbox, or I'll say rehearsal.
Robert Peterpaul:There you go, screen tests.
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, rehearsal First day of rehearsal.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, that seems so intimidating. I think for a lot of actors it's like you get to that point.
Tony Goldwyn:Treat it like a first day of rehearsal. Okay, do not treat it like your final audition.
Robert Peterpaul:I love that Acting methods.
Tony Goldwyn:We never know what the hell we're doing. Just keep asking questions, exploring every method. There's no one way.
Robert Peterpaul:I love that. Just keep asking questions.
Tony Goldwyn:I mean, I'm still always reading acting books, always. Oh, do you have a favorite? Me too? No, I just read. I get new favorites all the time and I read books and none of them are right. All of them are right. It's like there's's.
Robert Peterpaul:No, I love that. I have one here to recommend if you haven't read it the Warner Laughlin technique. Oh, I never read that okay. Warner Laughlin. She's amazing. I mean, I know she is, we just had her on here. She's great. But I recommend that it's a great book.
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, okay, onset etiquette uh, kindness, respect and punctuality Hmm.
Robert Peterpaul:Okay, k-r-p. I love that. Handling. Okay, this is a silly one. Well, not silly, it's actually we want to know. But handling spicy scenes, I feel like you've had to do a lot of those in your career. Yeah, or like just anything intimate.
Tony Goldwyn:Yeah, intimate scenes. Well, it's hard to have a short, brief answer to that, but it's the components that are critically important is what story is being told in this intimate scene? Um, what um be? Be very, uh, uh, sensitive and respectful of your scene partner, because the most important thing is to develop that there's trust between you, of your scene partner, because the most important thing is to develop that there's trust between you and your scene partner. You know, I guess now I've really not worked with them much, but now there's this intimacy coordinator, so I don't know about experiencing that, but whether with or without an intimacy coordinator, the question is always what story are we telling here with this?
Tony Goldwyn:And then what you know, to talk alone with your director, like what am I comfortable with, what am I not comfortable with, you know, so that everyone's telling the same story and you know, and just to make sure, mainly, that you develop trust and communication with your scene partner, uh, and make sure that it's a very safe space, cause that's ultimately so that you can feel free, even sometimes it's very technical. But if it's a very safe space, because that's ultimately so that you can feel free, even sometimes it's very technical, but if it's, you know, um, I've done a lot of it and it's uh, both as an actor and a director, and it's elegant, but it's also a beautiful opportunity. You know, intimacy is whether it's sex or not. We're in the business of intimacy. Whether it's physical intimacy or not, it's all the same thing. You know what I? So we want to have that vulnerability and openness in any scene we're doing. So if we're taking off our clothes or doing it, it's just as more sensitive, I guess.
Robert Peterpaul:Yeah, You're so right. I mean, sometimes it's hard to just be vulnerable and say hi to somebody walking down the same path as you. When you're outside with a stranger, you know so but it's very, totally clear on what we're doing.
Tony Goldwyn:What's, what are we, what are we trying to accomplish here? How are we doing and what are we? What are we doing? And you know being sensitive to people's sensitivities.
Robert Peterpaul:I love that. Boiling it down to the what is is a theme here, and I think that's super helpful. The last one I have is stamina.
Tony Goldwyn:Um well, you need a lot of it. It's really hard. Working on a film and television set is very hard and for actors, particularly in film, we need to be ready and to be present and fully in flow. At a moment we may be waiting for eight hours working, or maybe like three in the morning, and you've got to be there. So stamina is about taking care of yourself, learning how to pace yourself, learning how not to burn yourself out before it's time to you know, to keep yourself in this zone, in your game zone, like an athlete, and it's the same thing.
Tony Goldwyn:Doing eight shows a week is no joke, man. Oh yeah, working in the theater, particularly in the musical theater, is really hard, and in any, you know. So making sure that you're create a rhythm and a routine to eat well, get enough sleep, stay in shape, keep your voice healthy, all of it so that when it's curtain time, you are ready to go and you are in your best self. Or when they say, roll the camera, you are in your zone, whether it's through meditation, physical exercise, you know, prepare whatever you need to do, yeah, be like nothing is more important than being able to go, I'm ready, so that when the coach says okay, go in, you're ready to play. You know the number of times I've been off my center and I didn't know why. You know what I mean. Or I stayed out too late or didn't get enough sleep right, was not concentrating, I was chit-chatting with somebody, or I was not focused and I was like I'm not. I'm not. You know it takes some, some work and some self-knowledge to to to develop your own stamina.
Robert Peterpaul:I'm glad you went into that. I was going to ask you sort of the hows of that and I think those were all wonderful reminders. So it's kind of like whatever works for you, that's self-care. I appreciate you sharing that and I know we're running out of time here so before we roll out, I would just appreciate if you could share. We always end with like a got and a give, so these will be some Goldwyn Nuggets I don't know why I keep saying that and it's basically a piece of advice you got from someone in the industry and then the best piece that you have to give. So we could start with the got. What do you feel like the best piece of advice you got from somebody? Throughout this journey has been?
Tony Goldwyn:The best piece of advice I have gotten, which I've quoted a billion times. But when I was deciding to, trying to decide to be an actor, I was terrified because I didn't know if I had the ability to do it. My brother-in-law, who was a very brilliant jazz musician and very successful, said to me Tony, when I was your age, I had the same thing and I knew if I committed 100% to my passion, I would either achieve what I thought I was going to achieve or it would lead me to something that I didn't even know. But if I didn't commit a hundred percent to that thing that was burning inside of me, I would always feel maybe I could have done it and I don't want to be that guy.
Tony Goldwyn:And that sustained me through many lean times and I was like, well, I don't know if this is going to work, but I committed to it. So you know, I'm going to, I commit, and I feel that way on every project I do, because there's always moments where you're like this isn't going to work, like what are we doing? And I'm like, no, I just commit to the process and I know if I just commit, I will come out the other end, as opposed to getting freaked out and bailing or getting too caught up in like what if this doesn't happen, or what if that doesn't work, you know? So that was the best advice I ever got.
Robert Peterpaul:Commit to the bet, and you've. I love that and you've given so much advice, but do you have anything else?
Tony Goldwyn:you would like to give. I mean that was so genius. But to give it's like. This is a survivor's game. Don't get caught up in like it's got to happen. I gotta be here now. I gotta be like look at that person next to me, like my, my peers, like gotten ahead and when I'm supposed to be at this stage, at this point in my career, at 25 or whatever the hell it is, or anywhere, it's a survivor's game. The goal is be like build a body of work and still be doing it. This is my. My father used to say this you know, like in your fifties, if you're still doing your thing in your fifties and you built, then you're winning man. You know, if you're winning 51% of the time, you're a rockstar.
Tony Goldwyn:So, um, you know, we can get very, we can get very caught up in thinking it's all supposed to be happening on a certain schedule, that we thought was how it was supposed to happen and it's just not true. And I know in my career just think career-wise you know I had those anxieties when I was in my 20s and then those people who surpassed me I then my career way surpassed them and then 10 years later they then have some break, if they stay in the business, like they're being rediscovered. And so now at my age, I work over and over again with these people and we all started out together and we all have these kind of really awesome, rich, interesting careers. And what I really acknowledge about them and we acknowledge about each other is not that they were the hot person at this moment or that moment. Look at the caliber of their work, look what they do.
Tony Goldwyn:I just love working with these artists that I get to work with, who I've known since we were all kids. And now I'm like I just love Dylan Baker's work, man, you know, like Dylan and I started out together and every time we worked together I'm like you're so great, it's so fun to celebrate. Or Kate Burton or any Jeff Perry. I mean all these people that I've known forever or directors that I've worked with. There's so many people that I know. You know that I celebrate what is celebrated as the fabric of their process and their artistry. Not when they were, were not the hot item when they were not the hot item.
Robert Peterpaul:I love that. I also love that both of the pieces of advice you gave stemmed from your family. I think that probably speaks to who you are as a person. You said both family members, which is really beautiful, and I mean speaking of family. If I don't just say this really quick before we go, my mom will kill me, so could you just say hi to my mom.
Tony Goldwyn:Hi mom Sorry.
Robert Peterpaul:She's like your biggest fan. Okay, I usually I've actually never done that in an interview, but I felt it was important today. But I appreciate you so much, tony. I hope you stay you know, curious and kind, and I'm sure you will. It's great that we have a role model in you to look up to because, we need more of that, I think. So I appreciate your openness and thoughtfulness. I could just see your gears turning with every question that you really wanted to help the actors listening, so thank you on their behalf.
Tony Goldwyn:Okay, great. Well, it was great talking to you, thank you Okay.
