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How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks
How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks, breaks down an actor's journey, one topic at a time. Join award-winning actor, writer and host Robert Peterpaul alongside industry talent and experts as they discuss how to build a successful career as a performer and beyond in the entertainment industry. From inspirational casting stories to practical advice on the craft of acting, tune in to expand your skill set and book that role.
Discover fresh casting calls at castingnetworks.com.
How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks
How to Break the Mold & Get Cast with Emmy-Nominee Shaheen Baig (Adolescence)
Emmy-Nominated Casting Director Shaheen Baig sits down with host Robert Peterpaul to share her process for discovering raw talent and creating safe environments to thrive. Her acclaimed work on Netflix's Adolescence demonstrates how kindness, authenticity, and inclusivity can lead to extraordinary performances and productions.
This episode covers:
• Practical game-changing advice for in-person and virtual auditions.
• Finding undiscovered talent through extensive community searches, including Facebook Marketplace.
• How Owen Cooper stood out in a sea of 500+ self-tapes for Adolescence.
• Creating a supportive environment when working with young actors on challenging material.
• The importance of staying true to yourself rather than trying to fit industry molds.
• How being a "good person" is essential to the casting and production process and more.
This is - How We Role. Discover fresh casting calls at castingnetworks.com.
Follow Host, Actor and Producer Robert Peterpaul (Amazon's Sitting in Bars with Cake, The Art of Kindness podcast) on Instagram @robpeterpaul and learn more at robertpeterpaul.com.
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Hello, I'm Shaheen Baig. I'm a casting director. I'm very short, I'm about five foot three, and this is a really painful experience for me doing a slate, because I really don't like watching slates.
Speaker 2:Thanks, I love that. That was amazing.
Speaker 3:When it comes to working in entertainment, there's a lot of hows, and they all boil down to how we navigate this wild industry. While how we follow our dreams is uncertain, how we roll along the way is in our hands. Welcome to how we Roll, a podcast for actors by Casting Networks.
Speaker 2:Hi actors, it's your friend, robert Peter Paul, and I'm so happy you tuned in Today. I am thrilled to welcome a phenomenal guest, someone whose eye for talent has shaped some of the most compelling performances of our time. She's a champion of inclusivity and kindness, the force behind careers we now bask in the glow of from Florence Pugh to adolescence breakout, owen Cooper, and now she's an Emmy nominee. I'm talking about casting director Shaheen Baig.
Speaker 2:Shaheen Baig formed her own company in 2002 after working alongside some of the world's leading casting directors. Since then, she's cast award-winning work across film and television with both new and established directors. She's also a trustee for Open Door, helping young people access drama schools, and co-founded the Casting Assistant Certificate Course at the National Film and Television School, both part of her mission to create a more inclusive industry. In 2023, shaheen received the Royal Television Society's Bard Medal for her outstanding contribution to television and representation for the West Midlands. She's a proud member of BAFTA, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, the Casting Directors Guild and the Casting Society of America. Today, we're diving into her latest innovative project, netflix's Adolescence, which racked up an impressive 13 Emmy nominations. It's so good. With a unique casting process, shaheen once again proved her uncanny ability to bottle lightning and let it shine.
Speaker 2:If you haven't seen Adolescence, I cannot recommend it enough. Please pause right now and go watch. Shaheen was so kind as to break down the making of the show, while exploring topics like trusting the process, essential audition advice and even casting actors from Facebook Marketplace. I'm a little under the weather, but I know this episode totally healed me and filled my cup, leaving me feeling empowered, and I hope it does the same for you, friend. Here's how we roll with Emmy-nominated casting director. Shaheen Big. Hi Shaheen, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very good, I'm very good, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Thanks for being here and I imagine you're good because I believe Adolescence has 13 Emmy nominations. Congratulations.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I think we're all absolutely thrilled and surprised.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been great what I perceive as good people win. You know, something I admire about you is that you talk a lot about kindness and empathy throughout the entertainment industry and sort of leading with that as someone who's become a leader, and so thank you for that, first of all, and I love when people that have that as their philosophy, kind of you know get the acclaim that they so deserve. I mean, this series also is just brilliant. I can't say enough about it that they so deserve.
Speaker 1:I mean, this series also is just brilliant. I can't say enough about it. Oh, I mean, I think, actually, I think the way we made this show is a really beautiful example of fairness and kindness and how to look after people properly.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that and I can't wait to dive into all of that, shaheen. But in looking at your amazing career, one thing I noticed is that so many actors you've championed from you know Florence Pugh early in her career with Lady Macbeth, to now Owen Cooper in Adolescence. They credit you or talk about you as seeing something in them before the rest of the industry did, and so I just wonder off the bat here is there something you're consciously looking for when you meet with a new talent, or is it just an instinct that you've learned to trust in your gut?
Speaker 1:I think casting is a hugely instinctive craft and then it becomes much more technical as you go along. You know, I think I've worked on a lot of projects where I've gone out and searched. You know I've done casting searches so I've worked on a lot of projects with young people, with young casts, where I've had to do big casting searches and through that process you do discover whether it's going right back to Peter Pan, which was one of the first features I did, and George Mackay came through that, or it's actually the Falling was where I first met Florence and then Lady Macbeth, so it's sort of, you know, juno Temple through Notes on a Scandal. You know, these are all projects where I had to go and do big casting searches.
Speaker 1:So I think that's why there's a little bit of a pattern in my work because I'm choosing to do a lot of projects that are being cast in such a, or can be cast in such an open way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that and you know it's interesting because as a casting professional it's not like you can always wave a magic wand and find the perfect fit for a talent. When you meet them and fall in love with them there's not always a part, and I loved learning. I think Florence Pugh in an interview said that you helped her get her first agent. So sort of the things you do behind the scenes that maybe go unnoticed for the most part are contributing to making this industry a little bit brighter. You know, can you talk to me a little bit about that? It seems like you're so busy. I mean, even for adolescence you watched 500 tapes. I think Just making the time to do that is so special.
Speaker 1:But I think you have a responsibility when you cast in that way and when you cast in a very open way, you step outside of the system and you go into communities and you do open calls or you do street casting. You know the casting team have, and the production have, a responsibility for care. You know, for someone's care and well-being. So it's important for me and my team to make sure that that people are doing all right and what do they want to do with that production finishes? Do they think they might want to do it again? Some people have no sense if they want to do it again until they've actually seen themselves on the screen. So it's really just helping them, and often their families, through that process.
Speaker 1:And the job shouldn't finish the minute you cast somebody in the role. The job shouldn't finish the minute you cast somebody in the role, you know, and obviously it it then becomes, um, not just your responsibility, it's productions as well, but the casting team are the first people that a young actor encounters. So I think it really makes sense for that continuity to continue as much as possible and and if I can, you know if I can help any any of these young people with advice, or if it's like thinking about okay, I'd like to do more signing with an agent. Which agent should I sign with? I've been offered these two jobs. What should I do? Like? I'm really happy to be a sounding board because I want people to make the best decisions for themselves and the best decisions for their kind of career path going forward.
Speaker 2:I love that, you know. I'm just curious who would you say, is that for you as a casting director?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm very, very lucky because I trained with amazing casting directors. So I trained with Debbie McWilliams, Gina Jay, Patsy Pollock, Abby Cohen, and they are four brilliant women who you know, if I ever need any advice, I can talk to. So you just have to pass it on, and it's really important to pass it on.
Speaker 2:I love that passing it on, and you know I've mentioned it on here before. Hi listeners, I'm sorry if I keep repeating myself, but I feel like casting professionals are community makers. You know, you put together a community, especially when you look at something like adolescence, which we're here, and I want to dive into the casting process behind that. So with that in mind, I think first I'm going to read the little logline here for anybody who hasn't seen Adolescence Maybe pause it actually, and then come back and listen after you've watched, because I don't want to spoil anything. A family's world turns upside down when 13-year-old Jamie Miller is arrested for murdering a schoolmate. The charges against their son force them to confront every parent's worst nightmare. Forced them to confront every parent's worst nightmare. Okay, shaheen, what was your reaction the first time you read the script for Adolescence? I think there was only one episode that you got.
Speaker 1:That's right. So I was sort of told the premise and then I was sent episode one and I obviously understood how they were going to make the drama in one shot. And I read it and my initial thought was that's a very difficult subject, it's a very difficult subject matter and it's a huge undertaking for a young person. And I think those were my first thoughts. I was excited by it because I thought Jack's script was fantastic and the team you know the team involved lots of people I'd worked with before and I was like, ok, there's an amazing team on this, but how are we going to achieve this and how are we going to find this kind of brilliant ensemble that can do this in the way that it needs to be done? So I think that was my, my first feeling, which wasn't fear, but it was like, um, okay, how are we gonna do it?
Speaker 2:and was there a specific philosophy, I guess, that guided you throughout this casting process? Did you have something you returned to whenever you had to make a tough decision? In regards to the conversations you had with the other creatives, was there something you kind of latched on to overall?
Speaker 1:Sorry, my cat is trying to jump on the computer.
Speaker 2:Oh, bring him out. What's your cat's name?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to head him off, but I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:No, I love it. Oh hi, so adorable. What's your cat's name?
Speaker 1:No, I love it. Oh hi, so adorable. What's your cat's name? I'm so sorry, he's called Felix. I'm really sorry, but he wants to be here. Don't be sorry, this is amazing. I love it.
Speaker 2:And clingy. My cats are trying to break in. They're like this under the door right now and they've been screaming the whole time, so I've been surprised you haven't noticed that either.
Speaker 1:He's used the cat flap because he's clever oh so okay. So please ask me the question again, because I was trying to make up my cat, as you were asking me oh, no, no.
Speaker 2:My question was just do you have any pets? And it was answered so no. I was wondering was there a specific philosophy that you and the creatives talked about that you could kind of latch on to in the difficult moments of this production, like something you could always return to when you had to make difficult decisions?
Speaker 1:good, kind people. So I think you know that was a decision from day one. You know we were making a drama, a difficult drama, a tough subject in quite a unique, challenging way, and so, therefore, it was really important that we could do that with also with really kind, good people.
Speaker 1:And I think that was a big consideration for the casting and also just to make sure that the casting felt coherent and it really, I suppose, chimed with the tone of the script, and that was to find actors and performances that felt as truthful as possible and performances that felt as truthful as possible.
Speaker 1:And that's something we discussed from the get-go and so really those were the two things Everyone be good people. We're trying to. You know I know the production worked really hard to make sure that the team were full of you know great people Because, you know, when you're working on a drama that is challenging, you want everyone to have a good time and actually it was a very happy set. It was a very happy prep.
Speaker 2:It was a really happy set, which, you know, is surprising when you look at the subject matter, but I think it's crucial yeah, it makes all the difference, especially for something like this where every episode is one continuous shot and I loved geeking out and reading about all the intricacies. Even as far as you know, stephen would go to start the car sometimes and the car wouldn't start and then you'd have to do a whole new take. So if you don't have kind people, and when these little frustrations occur, it just it could make it not as pleasant of an atmosphere, I wonder. Is there something you feel like you had to unlearn that you've really learned over the years as a casting director for this process? Was there something you had to let go of that you found a little tricky?
Speaker 1:of pressure on us of like, okay, when are we going to find this, when are we going to find Jamie? And whenever you're casting in this way, it's a process and you kind of have to trust the process. It will move fast, it will move slow, it will be difficult. You may not, you know, you may get a bunch of tapes in and you won't see anybody and you won't see anybody, and then you'll see 10 people that are brilliant. And I think my sort of mantra to not mantra, but to everybody was like please trust the process, because it will. It will come good, but we and it might feel a bit frustrating and it may not be moving as quickly as you want it to, because we all desperately want a solution, but you have to just let this take the shape it needs to take and let us do the legwork, do the research, do the you know all of that groundwork to find the right people.
Speaker 2:That's something I always find to be. The magic sauce of our industry is that especially when I'm, you know, working on a theater project, everything does tend to come together last minute. You know there's a long tech week or whatever it is, and somehow it really just does come together. So trusting the process is a really great reminder. That said, the show really demanded a lot of its actors and at times it's like a play without breaks. You know, people have said how do you go about sensing, as you're starting this casting process, if someone is not only a truthful storyteller but has the stamina to really live in every scene and join an ensemble like, how do you cast for stamina?
Speaker 1:well, I think that, um, what we were looking for with the whole cast adult and young cast was that anything could go wrong at any time. You know, a scene could be written in a very specific way that you've rehearsed, rehearsed, but something could happen. The light switch might not work, or you know and so I think we needed actors that were not necessarily theater trained I think that's helpful but we needed actors that weren't afraid of some improvisation, because I think there had to be an element of that in the filming, and not all actors like to improvise, and so we had to really think about that. And then, certainly, when we were casting all the young roles, we did a lot of work with them.
Speaker 1:You know, we worked from the script, we improvised around the script, we tried lots of different things just to see what their focus was. You know, how was repetition, how was their concentration, and that became crucial. But, I think, bar two of the young actors in amongst the young cast, for everybody else it was their first screen. What screen work? So we, we took a chance, but but they all went through a process of workshopping and auditioning and, um, trying lots of different things to the point where we felt confident they would be able to do it.
Speaker 2:And it paid off and I can't wait to get into Jamie. But before we get there, I cannot believe just the corners of the world that you search to find actors. I mean, you were in Facebook Marketplace, which sounds so random, but it makes sense when I think about it. Is there a really unusual place that you found an actor for this project? I mean, I guess Facebook Marketplace is pretty unusual but anything sort of unorthodox you can share. I think that Felix, I guess knows as well, Felix is desperate for attention.
Speaker 1:He wants to get into casting.
Speaker 2:I love that. I think catting lose the S maybe.
Speaker 1:Exactly to get into casting. I love that. I think catting lose the S maybe. I think Facebook marketplace is brilliant because that's where a lot of parents are constantly on there looking for things, or grandparents, aunts and uncles. So often you're not just targeting, say, where young people go, you're targeting where their siblings, where their parents, where their relatives might go, and so you know community hubs, all sorts of random places. I mean I've cast, you know, I've gone into a garage and cast a mechanic, I've gone in. There's all sorts of mad things. Um, you know, you can find people wherever and however, and and it can happen in the most random of ways and with adolescence we chose about five cities in the North of England. We researched those cities, we made these kind of huge, sprawling databases of you know everything that we thought might be relevant, from schools, drama groups, youth groups, sports clubs, community centres, youth centres, anything that in some way felt relevant to the age group. We were looking for.
Speaker 1:And then we contacted everybody, we spoke to everybody, we street cast in those areas, we flyered. We also looked at young people who were professionally represented. I mean, you just do everything that you could possibly do to find the right person. You have to start from a place of volume, because you have to go out wide in order to find the person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you had a fairly wide net at first. In regards to age, I know that there were a lot of conversations surrounding age and at one point you thought maybe 18 to play younger, and then it kind of turned into 13 to a few 17 year olds, and so you know, how does that come into play technically? Because I just think of like union rules and all these things that you have to kind of have in your brain when you're working with kids.
Speaker 1:Well, we talked about that a lot at the beginning. We talked about sort of compliance and you know, how young could we cast? Because, obviously, the subject matter and the age of the character we needed to be hugely mindful of that matter in the age of the character. We needed to be hugely mindful of that, and so we initially were casting from 13 to sort of 17, 18, to play younger, but we'd all decided that 13 was the youngest that we could cast. And then we sort of started on the search and it just became clear very quickly that the older people just it didn't work, it didn't make sense. The youth of Jamie is such a crucial character for this drama and we had to get that right. And so it became clear that, okay, we need to focus on younger people and that's a decision we made like really, really early um, and it definitely felt like 13, 14 was the, was the sweet spot and that you know, even just thinking about watching it the first time we see jamie when they burst into his room, there's something.
Speaker 2:Visually, there's very different feelings that are evoked as an audience member. If, if you burst into the room of a 13, 14 year old versus an 18 year old, you know it's. It's immediately you're kind of sucked in.
Speaker 1:And it's shocking because he absolutely is a child. And so you're going into the bedroom of a child and you know, and Owen looks so young. You know, because he what he is, he is young and he was young. But, um, that was really really crucial. We had to get that in like the opening five, ten minutes, because it was essential.
Speaker 2:We got that right yeah, well, you did, and it all centers around the brilliant actor who plays jamie. Everybody's talking about Jamie, to quote another film, owen Cooper, who essentially was an undiscovered talent, I believe, who sent in a tape. And you have such a knack for unearthing, you know new creatives, as we discussed at the top here. What was it about Owen's initial tape that kind of caught your eye.
Speaker 1:I mean we were getting so many tapes. We had hundreds and hundreds of tapes. We must have had, I think, between five six hundred from the open call and we had about 60, 70 from the professionals and I think owen he it was very confident, it was a very confident tape. He had this you know, he was very young, angelic face, just a very clear, confident read and it was like, okay, this young person is really interesting, let's see some, let's see him again and let's see some more.
Speaker 2:Hmm, you know you mentioned those five, 600 hundred tapes. I wonder, as a casting pro, how do you stay focused yourself while watching so many? You know I imagine it becomes a blur at some point and I know that you really do watch every tape. I know some people are like do you watch every tape? And I know you do. How do you stay focused when you're watching so much? Because if you're not in the right sort of like mindset, I imagine people slip through the cracks sometimes. Could you just speak a little bit to that?
Speaker 1:I think that, again, you know when you're casting in this quite specific way, you know people are really going out on a limb to send you a tape, especially teenagers. You know young people going okay, I'll take a chance on this. So you know young people going, okay, I'll take a chance on this. So you know we have to watch all the tapes because it's you know, it's a respectful thing to do is watch everything that comes through. And you just have to be very, very organized with your time. And you know myself, my team, phil the director, joe the producer, we were watching everything.
Speaker 1:My team, phil the director, joe the producer, we were watching everything and we were filtering and we were sending through, and I just had to be very tight with my time and go okay, I'm going to, I'm going to put an hour aside and watch another 30 tapes or another 40 tapes, or however. You just do it every day and you get yourself into a rhythm whereby, okay, I'm going to watch another whole load of tapes this evening, and that's just what we did. We did it every single day. My office would upload during the day. As quick as we were uploading, more tapes were coming in and then we were watching and discussing. So you have to get yourself into a routine and actually there's a huge amount of admin. It's boring, but there's a massive amount admin that goes with casting in this way, because I can't tell you how many people send tapes without a full name or a date of birth, or you know all the things you need in order to be able to process that tape yeah
Speaker 2:there's a huge amount of back and forth and admin before I can share a tape with the director and how long, I guess, after you like someone's tape and pass it along to the director does it take for you to either call them back in or reach out to them we did it in ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did it in ways, but I think that we I think we did sort of four or five waves of auditions, so we'd have x amount of tapes in, we'd go through them, then we'd ask them to do another tape with some direction and with some notes and then, based on that tape, we would would call them in. So I think we did about five or six waves of auditions and then we moved into workshops where we sort of got people working with, um, a couple of actors and trying out different scenes and and improvising around scenes, and so yeah, and then the workshop was a much smaller group, because by that point we'd kind of got it down, I think, initially to about 10, and then we got it down to five.
Speaker 2:I'm very curious about the workshops of it all. But before we get there I wonder, you know, with the self-tapes, I hear a lot of casting professionals say that the first 10-ish seconds of a take are really important because that's how you grab someone's attention. Overall, is there anything actors can tangibly do in a self-tape to stand out? I mean, are you someone who really thinks that the beginning or the moment before you start the scene, like coming in with that energy, is super important?
Speaker 1:like coming in with that. Energy is super important. I think that sometimes I mean, we're in a climate of self-tapes and there's a lot of self-tapes and it has its pros and cons. It's never quite the same as being in the room. But on this project, because we had young people based all over the north of England, we sort of had to do it this way or start off this way. But I think with a self-tape, spend no more time on it than you would if you were meeting in the room.
Speaker 1:I think, sometimes actors spend so much time on a self-tape because they can edit and they can delete and they can do it again. And I think sometimes you're an actor spending too much time on a self-tape. So try and be as tight with it as you would be if you were coming into an audition in the room. And I think, also, with a self-tape, I'm not looking for anything, I'm not looking for fireworks, I'm not looking for it to be. It doesn't have to be like professionally shot, because some people don't have that facility to do that. As long as I can see and hear you, that's the most important thing.
Speaker 1:Um, and I just you know, I mean look, it sounds like a cliche, but I just like really honest, read reads and I think don't dress it up too much, don't layer it with too many, don't overthink it. You know, just be quite instinctive about it, because often with a self-tape, your instinctive reaction to it is often the best one. Then you come in the room and you work on it in the room and you can try loads of different things. But I think for a self tape it's the casting director's responsibility to give the actor as much background information as they're able to. So to give you notes on the character, to try and give you a sense of what's coming before and after the scene you're about to do, and then I would say be instinctive about it, because, um, I think any more, anything more than that can be sometimes become a little bit overly complicated yeah, overly raw.
Speaker 2:I've said this before, but it's almost like overcooked pasta sometimes if you let it boil too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and know when to stop and know when to be like. Actually I don't need to do that anymore. I've done it enough. I have to let it go now.
Speaker 2:I think that's fantastic advice. I wonder, you know, since a lot of us are taping I mean, I'm looking at my ring light in the corner of the room and I'm getting triggered are taping on our own in the corner of the room and I'm getting triggered? Are taping on our own Is there a favorite adjustment you have to give to actors to kind of get them out of their own head in this world of self-tapes? You know? Is there like a tangible adjustment that you give folks that you find really works?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's really, really hard for an actor to be self-taping with an app that is reading the lines for you or your mom or your auntie or your little sister, or I think it's really tough and I and I would really encourage, where possible, actors to talk to one another and help each other as much as they can so that you build your own community in when it comes to doing tape, so you can help each other, because you know, you know, by being in the room, if you're reading with somebody that is giving you absolutely zero.
Speaker 1:It's quite hard it's quite hard to to navigate yourself around that scene or be spontaneous because you're reading with someone that isn't going to give you anything and. I think that is key. It's also key to like the confidence in doing the tape, and not everyone is going to have this ability, but I think if you do have friends that are actors, lean on each other to help each other to make yourself tapes, because it's going to be more enjoyable and also you're probably going to get something that feels much more natural.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful and the natural and the confidence is what you found in Owen Cooper for Jamie. You know I've heard you all also talk about the fact that he was so focused and then he also had the essential skill of listening, so it was kind of a dream combo for a young actor. You know what, I guess. What do you think allows someone to stay that present? We talk a lot about being present in the scene and I think it can kind of become this lofty term in the sky that we aren't sure how to reach sometimes. But yeah, do you have any advice for sort of how you've seen even him or other actors get present and sort of be in that focus mindset?
Speaker 1:Well, I think with Owen, you know he was going to excuse me, he was going to a drama club so he was already you know. I guess you know they were working on things like focus and looking at script. So he already sort of he came to the audition with some knowledge of, he knew what a scene of dialogue looked like and he knew how to be focused in that moment. But that's still nothing compared to what he had to do actually on the day. I mean, I would say it's really important for actors to really kind of look at who they're meeting. So who is the director you're meeting? What have they done before? What's the tone and style of their work? What kind of actors have they worked with? What's their style? Who's the writer? What's the writer done before? Who's the casting director?
Speaker 1:What's their taste, what kind of projects do they work on? I think all of taste, what kind of projects do they work on? I think all of that knowledge kind of hopefully empowers the actor to come into the room feeling like, okay, I've done a bit of research on the people I'm meeting and I have some sense of their taste and I have some sense of the tone of the projects that they work on and that, I think, will naturally feed into the way you approach the read.
Speaker 2:I think that's really smart. I also thought it was so wonderful that I think when you narrowed it down to five Jamie's and then eventually went with Owen is it true you ended up giving all the other Jamie's a part in the show, Like that doesn't usually happen.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't. And I think, you know, every single young person that we shortlisted for the role was brilliant in completely different ways, and that's five different versions of adolescence. But you know, we were all like, like these are great kids, let's give them a part. And we were lucky because we had episode two, which was full of young people, and so actually the joy of episode two is that so many young people that we met along the way made it into that episode. So, um, that's a really great thing because you kind of go, okay, well, here we have an opportunity to to cast people and they all have their moment, they all have like a defined moment in the series, and so it's a real joy, it's a privilege, to be able to do that yeah, I think that's so special his name's escaping me jamie's friend that eventually is also arrested kane who it was?
Speaker 1:kane who plays the role? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Kane. Yeah, I don't know if he was originally a Jamie or what, but was it purposeful to cast someone who sort of looked like Owen in that role? Because to me, as I'm watching it, I'm thinking, oh, that could be him on the team, maybe it's not. Maybe it's not Jamie.
Speaker 1:No, actually we didn't think about that at all. He just had the most extraordinary face and was perfect for that, that scene, you know, with Ashley Walters and and just felt like such a kid who was completely lost in the moment. You know, absolutely lost and clueless and didn't know quite know what to do, and I thought Kane played that really beautifully.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and as far as I mean, I know it's a whole separate, other division. But background and extras, casting for that episode with all the kids in the school, you know, did you kind of have your hand in that? I know some of them were actually students of the school, but I just I imagine that's a different type of background work than normal, because you really have to be on your toes and focused as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's also all power to the production team because they were able to get that many young people to focus and moment and also to the adult cast because you know I love the naturalism of the teachers and I love that they feel like really recognisable teachers that would work in a comprehensive school in England and maybe that helped the young people respond to them in such a natural way and actually most young people that I've spoken to, including my daughter, episode two is their favourite episode because I think it feels very recognisable as an actual school that you would go to. Because I think sometimes we watch school on television and it's like a heightened version of school or it doesn't really feel truthful and I think that lots of people have it felt very familiar to them.
Speaker 1:So I think, that's an achievement to the actors and the production team for making that happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sort of another reason to praise teachers out there, because you also get a glimpse of how much they're dealing with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in looking at, I guess, the other adults in the series, of course, stephen Graham, who.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in looking at, I guess, the other adults in the series. Of course Stephen Graham, who is one of the creators, is also in the show physically, because, I think you can worry about that too much. You can be like oh, they're the eye color and the hair color and it doesn't feel right.
Speaker 1:You just have to find individuals that feel like they all fit together and that's an energy more often than not, and so I didn't worry about that too much because we just got to find the right individuals. And Amelie had such a really beautiful kind of quietness and she had a very different energy to Owen and I just thought, okay, that's a really interesting person to put in the mix. And then Christine is a great actress and.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know we're very, very lucky to have Christine in this. And then I found out Christine and Stephen had known each other since they were kids. So they grew up in the same part of Liverpool together. They'd known each other for years, so there was already like a really wonderful kind of connection between the two of them. And you know they're sort of coming from, you know they're quite similar actors, you know they're very instinctive, natural actors and so they just felt right and uh, and I actually I'm very proud of episode four because I think the work they do as a three is really difficult, delicate work. And then obviously you know Owen on the telephone, which again is difficult stuff. But I think you just believe it. I think, because their performances are so committed, you just believe they're a family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting to hear they knew each other too, because that brings even more depth to the take on me moment when they're in the car and you know they're talking about their history and it's so believable even you know the journey of their daughter's like no stop. This is too much. And then sort of also being a little bit happy that you know her parents love each other and that complexity, I guess isn't something you can just fake.
Speaker 1:So you know you should be proud. They needed to all feel safe with one another because, particularly Stephen and Christine, they have very difficult emotional scenes in episode four, and so you need two actors that feel completely in sync and safe with one another in order to be able to achieve those performances.
Speaker 2:Well, in looking at that safety, you know you've spoken a lot about the fact that kindness and sort of creating that positive environment was a really big priority as a casting leader, but then also for everybody in this project. I wonder can you expand on any of the tangible things that were done on set to really ensure this?
Speaker 1:Well, from the beginning of the production there was well-being. So there was a whole well-being team on this production and the producer, joe Johnson, was amazing. It was something we talked about from day one was amazing. It was something we talked about from day one. We talked a lot about what can we put in place? We need to start the care from the minute. We know we're going to meet them in the room and making sure that the parents knew exactly what they were coming in for.
Speaker 1:That we were completely transparent about the subject matter and about the nature of the role, and I think it's really important that you do that from the beginning so that you know you. You don't get, you know, quite a long way down the line with somebody and then you say, okay, this is what it is, and then it's then a crushing disappointment because somebody's parents want to take them out of the running or you know, know. So we were very clear and also we had to be really careful that we weren't at any point talking to young people that you know have challenges or have experiences in their life that might be triggering. You know that this subject matter could you know. So all of that stuff was really carefully sort of taken care of by our transparency, by making sure we had a really robust, well-being team that were on hand the whole time. They were on hand throughout the production and afterwards and when the show came out. And also I think you know the producers worked really hard to make sure the set was fun.
Speaker 1:And also I think you know the producers worked really hard to make sure the set was fun, to make sure there was stuff for the kids to do and that it was actually they wanted to come to work in the morning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know they're a very, very inclusive production team and I think they made it the best job it could possibly be for those young people. I often feel like we have so much to learn from young raw talent, because we all start out playing, pretend on the playground maybe and reading stories as kids and then you learn the business end of things that can kind of get in your way sometimes. So do you think that's part of your role too as a casting director is kind of tapping into the childlike sense of play in everybody?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think that when you go to work, you want to have a good time, you want to take it seriously and do the best work you can, but you also want to have a good time Even more so when you're working on very, very difficult material, I know. Even more so because then, when you leave at night, you want to, you need some lightness. I think that is really crucial. And, um, you know, there was a huge, you know, laughing. There was so much laughing in the production office and on set and people being quite playful and larky with each other, and and I just think that is a great way to work because it's like okay, now we've got to go into this scene and it's going to be really difficult, but we're going to come out of it and we're going to have a really nice time again.
Speaker 1:And I'm also aware, particularly with the young cast, you know, some of them may never act again. That might be their only experience. You want it to be the best experience it can be, because you want them to look back at that, possibly five, 10 years, and go oh my God, I had such a great time when I did that job and I don't want to be an actor, but I had an amazing time and it gave me some confidence to go into the next bit of my life or for an adult actor to go. I had such a good time on that job. I've never done anything like that before. I'd love to do that sort of thing again, or I'd love to work in that way again. I think that's the best you can hope for on a production.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and life is too short, you know, I think we're to not spend your time in the light and doing something you enjoy, so I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:And nobody wants to work with people where they have bad experiences or you come off a job and you don't feel good about it. I mean, nobody wants that.
Speaker 2:And that's a testament to you too. Why I think you're on this project is because, like you said, you had worked with so many of them before, and we want to work with people that we enjoy being around. I think that's a lot of the time. You know, when you get to a certain level, everybody's creative and talented, and that's sort of the more important thing is who am I going to be spending my time with?
Speaker 1:I think that's actually become really important. I think, especially after you know the industry. We've had a really curious few years with everything that's gone on, I think that I know, for me personally, I want to work with good people and I want to come out of those experiences having had a really positive time and it feel like a collaboration and that's certainly how I want to work and how I will continue to work going forward. And if I feel that might not be the case, then then that's not a job for me.
Speaker 2:Well, in coming out of the experience of adolescence, I know this show is going to stick with me for a very long time. I mean, I binged it in, I think, two days and then I haven't stopped thinking about it since and it's been. It's been a bit. So what will you take away from working on adolescence?
Speaker 1:unique experience the whole. You know, from the day I started on the job to now and going through this whole process and then culminating in the Emmys and so on. You know it's been a bit of a journey and, no, none of us could have predicted the response the show would have. Everybody just puts their head down and does, and and we all do the best work we can do, and, and that's what I did I put my head down and tried to do the the work in the best way I could and I feel very proud of what myself and my team have achieved with this and I feel really proud to be part of a production of such good people who all work into the same tune.
Speaker 1:You know, we all wanted the same thing for this show, whether it was all the crew and all the cast, we all wanted the same thing and I think that's rare to feel that level of camaraderie.
Speaker 1:You know, we really felt like we were in it together and I, coming out of it the other end, I still feel that.
Speaker 1:I still feel supported by everybody and there's a lot of love between us all and I think, gosh, if every production could be like that, the industry would be such a happy, positive place, and so I, you, you know it does make you realize, gosh, wouldn't it be great if all jobs made you feel like this? But um it, it has also really cemented for me my love of not of discovery, but my love of going to look for talent and creating opportunities for people, because I think that is a really, really important part of our industry is, like we were saying earlier, passing it on and creating opportunities. And I think, opening out, casting, looking for people, going into communities where no one really looks, or you know, sort of presenting opportunities to people who maybe never thought this was an option for them. I think that's a real privilege to be able to do that and that's something I will definitely continue doing. I did it before and I will certainly continue to do it going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm grateful you're doing that and I wonder if you have I guess I don't know if advice is the right word, but any more thoughts on just expanding on what you just said in regards to this industry, right now is very crowded with IP and nostalgia and celebrity power and getting things made with people that you know have a following already. I, you know, I appreciate how you do discover folks and give people these opportunities that maybe wouldn't have had it. Yeah, I would just love if you could expand on that a little more and sort of championing other creators to do the same.
Speaker 1:I think there's so much pressure sometimes, especially with social media, which is kind of maddening and brilliant at the same time, I think that people feel that they have to fit in. They have to, you know, okay, have to, you know they, okay, this is the fashion, or this is the fashion and this I have to present and I don't.
Speaker 1:I think you have to be yourself and I think you have to stay true to who you are as a, as an actor, and the sort of projects that you want to work on, and don't waver on that, because it will come good at some point. And I think sometimes, especially with young actors, I see them desperately trying to fit into what they think the mold is, and yet casting directors are constantly looking for actors that don't fit the mold. You know we're looking for people that break the mold, that change the mold, that reinvent the mold. So I think the mold that reinvent the mold. So I think actors should maybe take a little bit of pressure off themselves. We don't want you to present like someone else. We want you to present as yourself and to do it in the most honest way possible. And I know the industry is brutal at times and it's really really hard. And I know the industry is brutal at times and it's really really hard, but I think actually staying true to who you are at some point will come good.
Speaker 2:Be your own mold. I like that. I also will say like I've been looking at your beautiful door this whole time as well, and it's it's a different door and that's why it stands out. And speaking of doors, shaheen, I also want to mention that you are a trustee for Open Door, which is a nonprofit organization that helps young people access drama schools. Can you just share a little bit about your work there, because it's so needed?
Speaker 1:So Open Door I've been a trustee since the beginning, since it started. It was created by David Mameni, who is an amazing actor and it really is to. It was set up exactly to make drama school more accessible and affordable, because it's very expensive to apply for drama school. It's, you know, not just the audition fees but the travel fees. It's crazy and I think a lot of the help you can get is sort of invisible. It's tucked away in a drama school website on like the fourth page and no one can find it.
Speaker 1:And it was really just to make drama school more visible, to to really show the importance of training and for and to go into communities and say to young people like it really is a viable option, drama school is a viable option and you're not applying for it because you don't know how to and you don't, you can't afford to. So we've worked really hard you know me and the other trustees and the people that work at Open Door to just essentially make it much more visible. We've worked really hard with some of the you know, the main drama schools in London to make it much more affordable, to get help, to give help to people in order to apply. We do a lot of mentoring um, we buddy, uh students with an actor already in the industry that maybe has a similar background to them, so we buddy them together to sort of help them through the process.
Speaker 1:Um, it's a really it's an amazing. It's an amazing charity. I'm really proud to be part of it and every year we scramble for funding to exist, like every charity um, but it's a really worthwhile um.
Speaker 1:It's a really worthwhile organization to be involved in, and we are starting to see the shape of drama school change and we're starting to see the shape of drama school change and we're starting to see, you know, the demographic of people going through drama school change and I'm really proud to say I think Open Door has had a huge hand in that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, that's phenomenal, thank you. Thank you for doing that, everyone. Go check out. Open Door, and now I'm going to open a different door. Before you go, I would love if we could just play a little surprise game, shaheen, if you're down this might be testing my memory, and that terrifies me.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's definitely not. I think you're going to like this. It should be pretty easy for you. It's called casting keywords and essentially it's a flash round. I'm going to shout out terms that you're very familiar with. It's part of your job. You're hydrating. I love it. Maybe I'll hydrate too, and basically the goal is to get tangible tips and advice for our actor friends listening and try and inspire them and help them along and empower them. So I'm going to throw out a phrase or a statement and then you just give the first piece of short advice that pops into your head.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? Okay, so the first phrase is the slate.
Speaker 1:The slate. Oh my gosh. This can mean many different things.
Speaker 2:Slating for an audition.
Speaker 1:Oh, you mean the intro? See, I hate slates. I don't like slates at all. I often ask actors not to make them. Really. Yeah, I don't like them. I prefer a card that just has your name and your agent and then you can start. And that might be a very English thing.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:I don't love slates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how come it is, slates are very big over here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just don't, because I think actually taken for me takes me out of the read. I want to see the read, um, and I want to go straight into it. So for me, I would say if you are doing a slate, make it really really simple. So for me, I would say, if you are doing a slate, make it really really simple, really simple and brief, and then move on.
Speaker 2:I love that. Okay, this next one. You've talked about a little bit, but self-tapes.
Speaker 1:Self-tapes. Don't spend too much time on them. If your stuff you're not sure about, if the character doesn't make sense, if the scene doesn't make sense because you have no idea what comes before or after, ask your agent, ask question, and if they don't know, ask the ask the casting team, because if we can help in any way we'll help you. But really be instinctive with it, don't overthink, don't spend any more time on it than you need and be quite ruthless and if you can find a mate who's maybe another actor, to read in with you, because I think it will help with the general kind of energy of your take.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, okay. Number of takes to submit.
Speaker 1:No more than three.
Speaker 2:And should they be very different, I'm guessing different perspectives, different choices um, I think they should feel different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think definitely they don't have to be like wildly different and I would say, if you do five, if you, if you record six takes and actually you think two of them are far better than just send two. I would always have less than more if they are the strongest takes.
Speaker 2:Okay, I love that. Breaking down a breakdown.
Speaker 1:Breaking down a breakdown for the actor, or is?
Speaker 2:this for the actor. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, again, I think breakdowns can either be hugely descriptive or they can be very limiting, depending on how much information the casting office is able to give. So I think just look at keywords in that breakdown. So if it says you know, this character is a humble, honest, um, straightforward person, then I would say play it as truthful as possible, because I think that's clearly good. They're giving you a clear note on the character. I think if you've got questions or if the character description feels too ambiguous to get a hold on, then you should ask for more information. And it's hard. I think character breakdowns are really tricky because more often than not they hardly give you any information at all. So if it's a real person, have a little, have a research of the person. If it's a novel, do a little bit of research on that character and, um, I think really, just look at keywords rather than trying to retrieve, achieve everything that's in that character description. Just try and achieve a couple of those keywords and don't worry about the rest.
Speaker 2:Love that. Well, speaking of keywords, our next keyword is improv. So improv in auditions, you know, is that something we should only do when asked for it, or can a second take be a bit more improvised once we do it, you know, as on paper?
Speaker 1:I love a bit of improvisation, but I think it should always be discussed. So I think that, um, often the first take is on script and then I think it's a discussion about okay, can I go off script, how can we play around with the second tape, are there lines that may feel unnatural for you to say, and if so, why? And then we talk about it and obviously if the writer's in the room, they're part of that conversation. Sometimes I'm working on productions where it has to be absolutely to the script. So I know that and I can go into the auditions knowing that. But I quite like a loose take, um, because I think it often throws stuff up that you see in actors that maybe you wouldn't have seen if we'd have just stuck to the script. And then quite often I'll do a take which is on script, a much looser take, and then a take on script again, and it can feel quite different yeah, it helps loosen, people up because it's good to ask I love that.
Speaker 2:Speaking of asking you know what about when you ask for an adjustment, so taking adjustments?
Speaker 1:um, I well, I mean, I'm very sort of low-key about it. You know it's very much like okay, well, we've tried it this way, let's try it another way. And sometimes I might be asking an actor to try it another way, which I feel is maybe quite far away from what's on the page. But sometimes I want to see how an actor will adjust and sometimes, you know, a director might push an actor to a place that feels really way off what's on the page. But it's good to see how they respond to that and how they take direction. And again, if, if, if an adjustment isn't clear, ask a question, because I think sometimes that don't ask or they don't think they can, and you totally can, can and you should, because if somebody's given you a direction or a note that's not 100% clear, you can ask questions.
Speaker 2:Don't be afraid to ask questions. That's great Networking.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm terrible at networking, so networking is something that I'm absolutely rubbish at. It terrifies me the word networking terrifies me, Me too it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels like a dirty word. I get a little afraid when I when I say that.
Speaker 1:For anyone that is shy or yeah, it's, it's terrifying, I think. I just think you know you have to find your crew, don't you? You have to find the people that feel like-minded. And it's the same with casting directors, you know. It's like you can often see who is trained with who you can see. You know people can see, they look at my work or the way I cast and they can kind of see who I trained with and that's kind of your tribe, that's your gang.
Speaker 1:And I think with actors it's the same. It's like you know. Find people that you've got stuff in common with um and and network in a way that feels really comfortable to you. Like, don't do anything that doesn't feel comfortable. You don't have to go to all the places and all the things and be present all the time, like you really don't. And I think there's a lot of pressure on actors now to be constantly visible. Um, particularly with social media, media, I don't believe that at all. I mean, I personally have no interest how many followers somebody has, because whether I'm going to cast them out it's got nothing to do with. And I think there's a real pressure on actors to be visible. But you can be as visible or as invisible as you want to be. And again it goes back to staying true to yourself and not trying to fit in with everybody else, because it never works when we try and fit in with anyone else it's not authentic.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, and just okay to wrap the game up here. My last one is a little silly, since adolescence is a heavier topic. Favorite crafty snack. When you're on set, what's your favorite go-to snack?
Speaker 1:okay, well, recently I went on set on a set visit and I was pretty devastated by the craft because it was really healthy oh and I was just like no this is not why I came on set.
Speaker 1:I wanted to eat like carbs. So for me, when I go on set, I just love comfort food, so that's what I'm all like a pudding, that's like cake and custard or like a really old-fashioned pudding. I think those things when I go on set, I really get very excited about, and I think lots of craft food is becoming very healthy these days. So, yeah, maybe I need to look elsewhere. I love a good pudding on set.
Speaker 2:I love that. I was a crafty PA on a film a long time ago and it was the most dangerous job because I, you know, someone would take an M&M and then I would refill it but also take one for myself, and I spent about 14 hours just eating standing by the table.
Speaker 1:I remember when I first went, did a set visit and I discovered what a craft table was and it blew my mind. Yeah. I was like, how can you walk past it and not take something? I know, I know, which is why now it's all apples and bananas and oranges and everybody just wants a chocolate biscuit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very tricky. I'm such a foodie.
Speaker 1:Or a carrot. Nobody wants a carrot.
Speaker 2:Unless it's dipped in chocolate. Well, maybe that would be bad, I don't know, but I'd probably eat it. Well, shaheen, it was so lovely to chat with you. I know I got to let you go and I would just appreciate if we could end our time together by you sharing a gotten and a given. And so we always end every episode with our guests sharing the best piece of advice they've gotten in this industry and then the best they have to give now, looking, you know, forward on their journey.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I know they're big questions.
Speaker 1:They are huge questions and I won't at all remember any of anything, but I suppose my best advice to give I think people can get really caught up in you need to be this place at this time in front of this person.
Speaker 1:You need to get ahead, you need to be 20 steps ahead of the next person, and I don't believe that. Get ahead, you need to be 20 steps ahead of the next person, and I don't believe that. I think my advice is always you know, for me anyway is like keep my head down, do my job to the best of my ability, and that's what gets me more work. You know, my work is my showcase, not me, but my work, and so I think, just do your job the best that you can do it, and that should be your focus. And someone said that once to me and it's like yeah, that's, that's absolutely true. So that's where the networking doesn't. I'm terrible at that, but I just go right, I'm going to do my job the best I can do it, and that's the thing that I'm putting out into the world, and people will either like it or they won't.
Speaker 2:I love that. Do your job and always have, you know, some kind of chocolate pudding nearby.
Speaker 1:Or any pudding really. Any pudding.
Speaker 1:God advice to give. I think really we've talked about it at several points, but it's being honest, it's being true to yourself, not trying to fit into anybody else's mold. It's like you know there's nothing more boring than you know. A load of students graduating drama school and they all feeling like the same, I mean that's really boring. It's like we're looking for individuals, we're looking for people who've got their own unique energy style. You know happening and I just think so. Really, please don't, you don't need to fit into any mold.
Speaker 2:That's a wonderful reminder to end on. Thank you for that. I know everyone out there listening appreciates it. I'm going to write it down, been hanging up on my wall somewhere. Jean, it was so lovely to meet you and I am just grateful, not only for adolescence, but that we have kind leaders like you to look up to, and I wish you the most amount of luck and chocolate pudding this Emmy season and beyond.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much and thanks for letting me have Felix join. Yeah, that's his first interview, is it?
Speaker 2:Okay, I am absolutely honored. Thank you, Felix. Felix was amazing. My cats didn't get to make it in, but next time maybe they'll have a little play date I can pop them in.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
