How We Role: A Podcast for Actors by Casting Networks

Keep It Simple: 'Shrinking' Casting Directors on Audition Advice That Books

• Casting Networks • Season 2 • Episode 31

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:03:45

Submit a question!

What do TV casting directors actually want in a self-tape? We're scrubbing in with acclaimed Casting Directors Debbie Romano and Brett Benner of Romano/Benner Casting. From One Tree Hill to Scrubs to ABC's Scrubs revival to Apple TV’s Shrinking, these two are a true powerhouse pair. 

Sitting down with host and actor Robert Peterpaul, they break down auditions from a casting perspective and share how actors can make smarter, more grounded choices that actually lead them to getting on set.

In this episode for actors, you’ll learn:

• The real key to nailing co-star auditions (and why less is more)
 • How to approach self-tape auditions with clear, effective choices
 • Why nerves can actually improve your performance
 • When chemistry reads matter—and what casting is watching for
 • How and when to send two contrasting takes
 • Where improvisation helps—and where it can hurt your audition
 • The difference between grounded comedy and “too big” for camera
 • Behind-the-scenes insight into casting Shrinking, Scrubs, and more

This is - How We Role. Discover fresh casting calls at castingnetworks.com.

Follow Host, Actor and Producer Robert Peterpaul (Amazon's Sitting in Bars with Cake, The Art of Kindness podcast) on Instagram @robpeterpaul and learn more at robertpeterpaul.com.


Follow Casting Networks on social media for casting news, interviews and more:
Instagram
Threads
Facebook
LinkedIn
YouTube

Welcome To How We Roll

SPEAKER_00

I'm Debbie Romano, I'm 5'6. I'm Brett Benner, I'm 5'11, and you're listening to How We Roll.

Meet Debbie Romano And Brett Benner

SPEAKER_02

When it comes to working in entertainment, there's a lot of hows, and they all boil down to how we navigate this wild industry. While how we follow our dreams is uncertain, how we roll along the way is in our hands. Welcome to How We Roll, a podcast for actors by casting networks. Hello, fellow actors. Thank you for tuning back in. It's Robert Peter Paul ready to roll on a beach of acclaimed casting directors. Stay tuned as we enter the summer of bonus episodes here on How We Roll. I've had the privilege of sitting down with the magical humans behind some of your favorite television casts to answer tons of hows in regards to the acting and creative journey. We're kicking things off today with a power pair who have worked on everything from One Tree Hill to Scrubs to the Scrubs revival to shrinking. Casting directors Debbie Romano and Brett Benner of Romano Benner Casting. Establishing their partnership in 1999, Debbie and Brett have cast quite the spell over the industry. As four-time Emmy nominees and Artios winners, this formidable Twesome have cast everything from pilots to several long-running series across genres. And as mentioned, their current triumph is shrinking on Apple TV and the scrubs revival for ABC. I found them to be a well of wisdom. Seriously, friends, you're gonna want to take notes. And most importantly, they were incredibly kind. And I just hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I also hope you'll follow us on social media at Casting Networks and at Rod Peter Paul where you can submit your house for a chance to be featured on the show. Now here's how we roll with acclinged casting directors Debbie Romano and Brett Benner. Well, friends, as you know, today we are joined by the dynamic duo behind some of your favorite on-screen ensembles, casting directors Debbie Romano and Brett Benner. Welcome to How We Road! Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, we're thrilled to be here.

First Paid Gigs And Early Breaks

SPEAKER_02

Of course, I am so excited to chat with the both of you today and your human first work. I think you have the Midas Touch as a duo. Any project that you touch seems to become gold. And before we kind of dive into that, we love to start up by asking our guests, what was your very first paid gig in the entertainment industry?

SPEAKER_05

Well, I did do an internship where I was originally not supposed to get paid, but um the casting director, I think, felt so bad that I had to drive all the way from Burbank to the like to West LA that um she paid me a hundred bucks a week. Oh, that's generous. Yes. But if you really want to know, like legit, legit, um it was it was with Mary Buck and Susan Edelman, and I got an assistant gig with them. And the first pilot I got to work on was the original Melrose Place pilot, which for myself, who was like 23 years old at the time, it was the dream gig. Everybody my age up to like 35 walked in our door. It was wow.

SPEAKER_02

That's iconic. Okay. And that just laid the Mel Road, Melrose, Mel Road. I don't know what that means, for a really great career, Debbie. There's a lot of those coming today, y'all. So just buckle up. The pun train has left the station. What about you, Brett?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my God. Well, non-casting, it would probably I I really like I had to like dislodge. Okay, I was an actor. So my first thing was when I lived in New York, I got hired to work like a um it was a toy convention. And I it was for a game called Pass the Pig. I don't even know if you noticed, Debbie. And it was literally like the graphic was two pigs in tails, like in uh oh my god, what's the word? Thank you, tuxedos. And so I had to sit there, and the the game was like rolling these two little plastic pigs, and how the pigs fall was how you would rack up points. So I was one of the two people like dressed up, not like a pig. I had to wear a tuxedo, but thank God it wasn't like a pig head on top of that. But that was my first that was my first gig. And then I and that my first casting gig was I was hired as the receptionist at Lieberman Hirschfeld casting when I decided to go into casting, which is where I eventually met.

Why Their Partnership Works

SPEAKER_02

Jebbie. Yes. Jebbie. Well, you you made bacon before you made the bacon. I don't know what that means. I guess that didn't make sense at all. But I love that you kind of finished Brett's sentence there with the tuxedo because you two together have quite the yellow brick road of credits, and we're gonna touch on a bunch of them today, all with the goal of going through the casting process to get tangible tips for actors and also aspiring casting directors, including Shrinking, obviously, which is the kind of show that the world needs now, I do feel. It all, of course, comes out of that duo that we were just touching on. So to get a little insight into this, I did some detective work, y'all. And I have a surprise question from your associate, our friend, the lovely Shannon Corey. Yay! So I was gonna make you guess who said this, but then I said, we don't have enough time for that. So she said, one of the things I admire about Debbie and Brett the most is how collaborative they are with each other, the creative teams they work with, and their associates and assistants. They bring such a unique sense of joy, expertise, and curiosity to the job. What I'd love to ask them is where did this collaborative nature stem from, and how do they think it has contributed to their success?

SPEAKER_05

I think that's an easy question. And you know what? Do you mind, Brett, if I start?

SPEAKER_00

No, start.

SPEAKER_05

Okay, so I Let's collaborate. Let's collaborate. I think we come at casting from such different perspectives. Brett was an actor. He, you know, he speaks that language in a way that I don't because, you know, I'm sorry, but I went to school for mass communications, whatever that means. I saw um a casting by credit when I was a junior in college and thought, oh my God, that's a job, and pursued it from there. But like I am organizational. I um sorry, I I need to throw in the fact that I'm very odd. And as a child, I asked for a two-drawer file cabinet when I was 13 to cut up newspapers and magazines, and it really was very like boy rific. Um lots of Matt Dillon, lots of Rob Lowe. Like it was whatever. I also had an obsession with musicians and the Olympics.

SPEAKER_02

But Okay, wait, Debbie, I just I need to know. Was anyone in this file cabinet later pulled out that you got to work with? Did did you did that you have you had that experience?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Not we don't want to say not really. No. Okay, okay it's funny because uh a good friend of mine asked me that recently, and I was like, well, I was in the same room as Matt Dylan, but I didn't have the balls to walk up to him.

SPEAKER_02

You still had the cabinet, it's just rolling with you everywhere. I love that. Anyway, back to you. She's like, hold on, door number 34. One second. Past the Olympics, M M.

SPEAKER_05

Right. So uh like I am organizational, I love to negotiate, I really like the business side of it. I also like the creative side of it. And I, you know, I love being in the room with actors and I love to like lob out an idea of, you know, let's try it this way. But I often find that Brett is the one who will then put it into terms that is more digestible to an actor. And he is just so creative. And I don't know, I'm just like so lucky to have him as my partner because we are a yin and yang.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

100%. 100%. And I think that was the and the way we came together was really that, you know, when we were working at Liebermann Hirschfeld, it was a large office. There were a lot of employees, there were a lot of shows. And um, Debbie worked in the valley in the office there, and I worked in the Hollywood office. And we just started to, we were both associates and working on different shows, and we began to call each other to say, Hey, I have this role. Can you help me? What do you think? Do you have any ideas? And like without even knowing, we were kind of planting seeds for what was to come. And so that was a really cool thing. But she did, she just it was very eloquent in the way she described our relationship. And that is because everything she is in a lot of ways, I'm not. I I I am not detail oriented. I am like, it's literally like together we're one complete person. But we just approach things and how we look at things, you know, very differently. That's beautiful.

How To Read A Breakdown

SPEAKER_02

It's like the black and white cookie coming together. I think you need bite bite of both of them. So I feel like most departments, you know, casting starts and ends with the script, right? And I'm curious about the breakdowns you craft as you translate scripts for auditions. What would you say is your best piece of advice for actors breaking down a breakdown? Would you rather see an actor kind of just bring themselves to the role versus getting caught up in the description? Sometimes we can see breakdowns and you can kind of hone in on a couple keywords, especially if you have a day to prepare. And I think actors can forget to maybe do their research, look up their production team, figure out the tone in that way. So when you're making breakdowns, yeah, what do you think is the most important to kind of look at?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, for me, and it sounds like an obvious thing, but for an actor, and I know look, look, times have changed. But I remember when, you know, years ago, when there were only networks pre-streaming and there were so many like pilots happening at once, I think it was hard for actors to ever get a sense if you were having sometimes five, six, seven auditions a day, how to stay on top of what those things were. That was a different thing. I think now, at least I think it's an actor's job to be familiar, at least when you're going into an office, even just to look up to say, what does that office do to get a sense of the kind of things they cast. In the same way that we have to be aware of what actors are kind of known for. Not to say that actors can't do a variety of things, in the same way that we get frustrated because we get pigeonholed with just comedy. And ironically, both of us love to watch dramas. And there's times that we were both like, okay, we cast these comedies, but we'd love to do like the darkest, like Oz would be a dream. Yeah. But I do think it's it's important that actors are familiar at least with what the offices are doing and who the people are that they're going in for. And I think one of the disservices of like the now the way things are set up and so many offices don't exist except online, is we miss the opportunity to see actors, especially new people, and get to know them as individuals because they're just sending in tapes a lot of times. I do think it's important that you understand if the show is available to be seen, to try to watch even a few minutes of the show to get a sense of tone. I also think it's okay to, you know, and this goes back to just a different point, but it's related to the breakdown. If you are given the opportunity, and most offices have to, it's what we should be doing, giving an opportunity for people to come in live, whether it's a Zoom or um if the office has an office, take that opportunity because it's the it is the chance for you to get in the room and say, Hey, can I ask questions? Can I do those things and just say, you know, is this broad, is this um grounded? How is this particular thing played? Because sometimes it is not clear. And it it's not something that you're gonna necessarily get um from a breakdown to say, you know, unless you know the tone of the show. The hardest thing is if it's a pilot that's something brand new or a first-year show that hasn't premiered yet, obviously you may not get the tone. Um but for someone who looks at a Bill Lawrence show, for example, can say, okay, there are come wacky moments, but uh it's a groundedness that kind of underlays the whole thing.

Co-Star Auditions Keep It Simple

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, when the shrinking breakdown came out, actors could probably see Bill Lawrence, Brett Goldstein, and maybe just get a the gist of what that tone might be, because it's very specific. And I mean, your comedies run the gamut. I mean, you you two cast such a comedic spectrum that it almost sometimes it could be classified as a drama anyway. So give them dramas, people. But even with tone, I often think one of the trickiest things as an actor are the co-star auditions sometimes, because you probably just have a few words. I think I went in for a show once and it was literally just hey, and then you're like, hey, hey, hey. But it's just like, maybe just say the line. What's your advice specifically for co-star auditions?

Self-Tapes Use Your Space

SPEAKER_05

I think keep it simple. Realize that unless there is a hard joke in it, it's probably not about you. You're probably just furthering the storyline um or the scene or something for the the other characters that are in the scene with you. So for the most part, I would say keep it simple. And, you know, if there is a trip fall in there, we do try to help and give any, you know, direction that we can so that actors know what we're looking for.

SPEAKER_02

Hmm. I think that's great advice. Great life advice. Keep it simple. Keep it simple, Robert. I know we all miss feeding off that in-person energy as we were touching on before. And in this self-tape age, which I hope nobody's triggered by my pop-up backdrop here that I'm using today, which smacked me in the face a couple of times.

SPEAKER_03

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02

No, I'm fine. Do you think I'm like a boomerang, I bounce back? Do you think that actors can shake up the format a little in regards to sort of using their space more and not just planting themselves in front of a backdrop? Is that something you see?

Nerves And Asking For Time

SPEAKER_05

I love that. I love that you asked that. I was thinking about that this morning because I do think that there is an element, as much as we're looking for, you know, this, if it is a scene that requires a little more physicality, I I think give it to us. Let us know. You know where you are in, you know, whatever the setting is. And, you know, whether it's a glance, you know, if you're in a coffee shop, whether it's a a glance at like the long line, or, you know, a couple arguing over that, whatever. Because especially like with comedy, it comes from so many places. And a lot of times it can be something as simple as a look. We all know that. And especially if it's a funny look. So I I think yes, like give us that sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I love that. I think that's great advice for grounding yourself in a scene from the top, too. It's just, you know, maybe you're looking at the park and that just helps you immediately kind of snap into it. And another great piece of advice, Debbie, that I heard you say was that nerves are a good thing because it means you're invested. And I think a lot of listeners just starting out, especially, would just love for you to expand on that and how they can sort of use their nerves and not spiral maybe during a self-tape.

Zoom Etiquette And Smart Questions

SPEAKER_05

Sure. I mean, look, I will speak for myself. I when we would do not so much pre-reads, but when we would have producer sessions where like we're in a room with our producers and we are trying to whittle down the options that we have and hope that they like who we like, which is such a, you know, a big thing, um, to then go to potentially studio and network, which I've heard they're starting to do those live again. They like actors need to know we get nervous too. And we, if we're reading with you, we want to be as present as we can be for you. We don't want to, you know, mess anything up. I think, I think something that um in a live audition, and you know, we'll we'll just go and hope that like we get back live more. If there's something that you as an actor want from a casting director that will help you when you get to the level of testing or producers, don't be afraid to say that. Like, can you give me like 15 seconds at the top just to, you know, ground myself and that, you know, whatever that is, we're there for you. We're a team. So I think that that's really important. But I I think that nerves are a part of what this is. Like you said, I said it means that you're invested and there's that's all we can ask for. So just you try to use them in a positive way to focus and know that it's it's okay because it's keeping you active and at the top of your game.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's so kind. And we recently had a wonderful actor on here, Jen Lyon, who's so amazing. Everybody go check out Stumble. And she was saying a great reminder, which is that nobody knows what's going on in your head. So don't let it get to the point where maybe you're showing it and just kind of observe it, let it go, and use it like you're saying. You know, Brett, I wonder in regards to the Zoom session or coming into the room live, do you both like a little chit-chat? Is it sort of like feel the vibe of the situation? What's your ideal way maybe for an actor in general to come in?

Chemistry Reads On Zoom

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's a weird thing because for an actor, they have to kind of literally read the room, whether it's virtual or real. But I think for us, just generally speaking, we do try to take a moment and be like, hey, how are you? And just so it's not because again, the Zoom can be impersonal. It's a different experience. So I think we really strive to make it at least comfortable. The problem with the producer sessions, not the problem, but the kind of hurdle is we're tired of taking our cues from our producers sometimes and what their time schedule is like and what kind of, you know, how quickly we have to move through something. And that can sometimes dictate, sometimes the Zoom, if they have to get back to the writer's room or there's something else going on, or they have a set amount of time. So, but generally, I think, yeah, we try to take a moment and be like, How are you? And it's a question of us reading the room from either side, because with some actors, they're focused. They've been sitting in that virtual waiting room for sometimes 15 minutes, who know who knows? But they come in and some people like, I want to do my scene, I want to get through it, and then you know, that's it. It's just, it's a pretty individual thing. But I think generally, yeah, we try to as much as we can take a moment to be like, hi, how are you? Do you have any questions? Um, which is a great time, again, if there's something that you don't know anything about, to please ask the question. There's the world of people say, you know, is this role coming back? That's maybe not the question. But the question pertaining to this moment and to how the scene is played, or if there's something you don't understand, absolutely ask that question.

SPEAKER_02

That's lovely. One thing that kind of surprised me about doing a Zoom callback or session was honestly how sometimes the things that go wrong technically, like if there's a freeze or a sound pops up, kind of work to your advan advantage as an actor because it snaps you back into the present. So that's something that I've enjoyed in a weird way about Zoom auditions, is like, oh, it's a f you know, it kind of immediately takes you out of uh, you know, your own nerves or whatever it is. But I'm curious whether it's on Zoom, and I'm sure it depends on the project about chemistry reads. We actually polled our listeners and we got a lot of questions about this for you two, since you work on such big ensembles. How common are chemistry reads now for recurring or series regulars? Are those sort of a luxury? Does it depend on the project?

Contrasting Takes And Safe Improv

SPEAKER_05

I think it just depends on the role. And it like, you know, shrinking was picked up to series. So we don't really call the first episode a pilot. It's the first episode, but it is like a pilot. And we did have chemistry reads there, especially with what ended up being Jason and Lukita. And you can see chemistry, it's bizarre, but you really can. And sometimes it's even more so in the chatter when they're not performing, just how easy the back and forth is or whatever. As far as like a romantic kind of situation, I think you can see it there too. And and we've had that, but it's not the same. I mean, it never will be the same as being in person. On season two of Shrinking, we had to cast Gabby's mom and Gabby's sister, and Jessica Williams really wanted to make sure that it was right. And she was um very vocal about I'm available, so use me. And we did, and it really informed a lot because. Jessica loves to improvise. And so we got to see who could go toe-to-toe with her. And that was important. So that's like a whole other kind of chemistry. And we did that, we did one of those live, and then we did another one on Zoom because someone was on vacation. So we had to do Zoom. But it works. I d I you know, I I would have never ever thought it would, but it does.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And she's so good, Jessica. I guess maybe it's similar to like as audience members and viewers, we can see the chemistry on screen. So Zoom is on screen. So maybe that's part of it. I don't know. But it's funny. I talking about shrinking, especially, I love the advice you've both given about sending in two contrasting takes, if they're really contrasting, especially for a series like shrinking. I think I know the answer, but do you like when actors have one that's more improvised? I I think we can get nervous to stray from the script sometimes. Is is it just show dependent?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's show dependent, but I also think I, you know, just don't lead with that audition. You know what I mean? If you're putting multiple choices up, have a it's your second one or whatever, and start with the text as written. You know, I know that in the shrinking world when they're shooting and all the way back to Scrubs, Bill would always say, now we'll do one, you know, for shits and giggles. Um and just do what you want to do just to see and to play. But um, yeah, I think it's important though, to at least the first time out, to do it, you know, as written and then move from there. Yeah.

Grounded Comedy And Playing Size

SPEAKER_05

I think I think the other great place to do it is to button the scene if you're gonna improvise. And that is something that we don't know is coming. And then like Brett and I will often call each other and be like, oh my God, did you see the way so-and-so buttoned that scene? And then we're so excited to share that with the writers because and producers, because you know, we know that hopefully they'll have the the same reaction. And and they love that stuff, but it's also great to know that you can stick to the script in the beginning. So I mean it's written that way for a reason.

SPEAKER_02

And yeah, I think that's awesome advice. We were so lucky to attend, which I know you also worked on, a live taping of shifting gears recently. And I feel like we saw that in real time. I mean, it that moves very quick, and they don't always do more than two takes, but just to see the different buttons they were adding in real time was so much fun. Shout out to my buddy Laura Ginesco, love you. So as I meant she says hi, by the way. As I mentioned. You've worked on such a spectrum of comedies, you know, from Scrubs, which you just mentioned, to shrinking. I wonder if you can sort of help me debunk the big small note, which I think a lot of our listeners struggle with. What do you both think being too big for camera really means?

Casting The Scrubs Return

SPEAKER_05

I think it depends if it's a multicam or a single cam. Because I think you have a little more room to move with a multicam and you're performing in front of a live audience, and there's something a little more performative about that, like theater. Um, but I think at least with our single cams, for the most part, we are looking for more grounded performances.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I would also say it's easier from our perspective to pull somebody back who might start something larger to say bring it down than it is to bring it up. That's not eas that's not something that's easy to say to someone like, you know, go broad to start, and we can always um I think Debbie's right in terms of the assessment of the multicam versus the single cam. And we are really looking for grounded at the end of the day. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05

And that's per our producers. They they really want them. Um and and it was interesting doing the Scrubs reboot because I think our recollection of the show was that it was a little broader. And this time they really did want to ground it outside of the fantasy sequences. So, you know, we found our initial instinct to not be right. And so then we had to apply that. So as casting directors, we're always learning. And it's really hard when you have a lot of cooks in the kitchen and you're trying to satisfy all of their tastes. And so that's a big learning curve for us is to see, you know, to see what we're gonna put in front of our producers and also how to guide the actors to give that performance that will get them in front of the producers.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're such champions. And let's let's scrub in for a second. Why don't we? Because Scrubs is back and people are loving it. They're calling it comfort food. I mean, it's so rare to reboot a show and then of course have it be successful. And so I wonder, and Deb, but your initials are doctor, so maybe that's something. There's something there that might be like part of the. I don't know. But what was it like? Oh my god, that's so funny. You both have great initials. You got the BB, the DR.

SPEAKER_04

I know the BB is good.

SPEAKER_02

It is good. What was it like BBDR to return to Scrubs?

SPEAKER_00

It was great. Honestly, it's been great. And it's been exciting because first of all, to get to put together a new cast like this, and they're all so fantastic. And we, you know, we always talk about this that casting really becomes like it's part alchemy, it's like part magic, it's and a lot of it's luck. You don't know at the end of the day when you put it all together, what's gonna happen. And um, those new interns are all so wonderful and so special. And so it's, I don't know, it's been a really, it's been nostalgic. It's been really wonderful. It's been wonderful watching Donald and Zach and Sarah just kind of and Judy and um John all just kind of slip these skins back on so effortlessly, and then putting these new additions in. So I it's really exciting. It doesn't feel like this was that we started this thing 25 years ago, and that seems absurd because we're only 19. But uh but it's but yeah, but it's I don't know, I've it's been really gratifying and and watching these new people come into this world, like our nurses who are so amazing. Um all of it. It's just been great. Deb?

One Tree Hill And Long Runs

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, no, I mean, everything Brett said, it's also like a thrill to have an SNL alum on the show, Vanessa. I mean, oh my god. So good. What a treat. And Joel Kent Booster. I mean, we've we've been really lucky. And and it's been an interesting process in that our producers really want to see everything read. So when we put out self-tape requests, we don't know, you know, because we get really lovely submissions, which is great. But, you know, a lot of times agents or managers will submit their person. Either they'll directly say offer only under their name, or when we send this mail out, we'll get back, yeah, they're offer only. They'll they'll work for like a lot of times we pay top of show. And people are game to do that. Uh I just lost my train of thought. Um That's okay.

SPEAKER_02

Choo choo.

SPEAKER_05

It's oh, but but we find that a lot of actors that we would never think would self-tape are game to self-tape because there's not that much work anymore. And they, you know, we do explain like this is this is what producers want. So they will lay something down and then it becomes undeniable. And that's what that's what we need to get to push these people forward and to get them hired. And we really appreciate the fact that people are game because it makes our job easier and it brings about work for some really great people.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, I love that. Being game and just passionate and leading with that, I think, is something so special that can get lost in today's world. And so I think it's it's a beautiful thing that you bring up. And my next note here is literally magic, Brett, which you touched on and the magic of what y'all do. In addition to scrubs, we need to scrub back and go back a little further, just for one second, if you'll indulge me, because I'm currently binge watching One Tree Hill, and I think I'm so sorry. What y'all and and the rest of the casting team did with One Tree Hill, I'm sorry, it's the reason why it's so successful. I mean, the cast is the show. And I know the cast members.

SPEAKER_05

I need to know one thing, so I just want to interrupt you, which is just to say we did not do the first season, so we did not do the originals who were from the beginning. We came in season two, episode four.

SPEAKER_02

But I'm on a season three, and I'm I'm already loving all the additions that you've you've had coming in there and the locals and the the there's been some really great things happening. And I just think, you know, from that season on, no spoilers, but I do know some things that happen, it just brings up the Sorry. It just You're at risk at this point, right? I know. It's all out there. Right. Yes. And I mean they're talking about bringing that back too. So I just wonder w with these casts in in Cougar Town's another example that have become sort of legendary. Is there something you can pinpoint that makes you immediately see as different from the jump, or is it sort of just that magic that you were touching on?

SPEAKER_00

I don't I don't personally know that there's one specific thing, although I think that I could speak to the Bill Lawrence of it all and say, Bill has great ideas and his big thing is he puts together really wonderful ensembles. Um, and I think that what they do so well in the writer's room as the shows evolve is they find out very quickly, they hone in on what the particular actor's strengths and weaknesses are and use them to their advantage. Even if it's a particular weakness, they will sometimes exploit that as well, much to probably the chagrin of the actor. But um excuse me. But I think that's a lot of it. Like, you know, taking shrinking for an example, or even uh going back to that original scrub script, those were great scripts right from the go. Like no notes, like read it and think this is exceptional. And so that is helpful to us, obviously, when you're kind of trying to cut through the glut of so many different scripts to appeal to people, right? To to have actors and especially agents and managers when they're the first people seeing it to say, wow, this is special. And so that is, I think, integral at the start with what we're doing. But then they, as producers going forward in the series, really learn how to write in really wonderful ways for the for the people that the for the people they have. Cut through the glut.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, is that the episode title? I don't know. That was great.

SPEAKER_05

That was so good. You should know one other thing though about One Tree Hill, which is that every season we were on the bubble.

SPEAKER_02

Really?

SPEAKER_05

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like it was a replacement originally. I know like a mid-season, it kind of popped in there early. That's wild.

SPEAKER_05

We here here's a little joke. Um, so we whether we started on the show or inherited a show like a little bit down the line, we I know you're going. I know we um we got lucky, and these shows lasted a long time. And so we used to call ourselves cockroach casting. You can't kill the shows we cast. I mean, it was crazy. Scrubs was very much on the bubble for a long time. One Tree Hill was always on the bubble. Like there, there were a lot of them. And so those long-running shows are such a gift. And uh we were like when you're on the bubble, or you're yeah, or you're a huge hit. Like whatever gets you to the next season.

Advocating For Actors With Producers

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, and and thinking about it, like sc uh Scrubs and Cougartown moving networks, even. You know what I mean? Stopping and moving, and you know, there was that revival that we're not calling a revival of Scrubs that happened very briefly with Dave Franco and Carrie Boucher. But yeah, but One Tree Hill was it was also funny when we got One Tree Hill, because that was also the year One Tree Hill premiered the same year as the OC premiered. And the OC was getting all the flash. And I remember watching the OC, and Debbie and our then associate Bly Nailing were the One Tree Hill gals. And so I didn't watch, and so they but they every because you know, at the time, it was so pre-days, this is so off the record, not off the record, but like off the line of what we're talking about. But we used to alternate days of what we would tell each other to record the night before, because if we had any downtime in the office at lunchtime, then we would sit together and watch TV. So it would be like CSI or whatever it was. We'd be like, you record this and I'll record this and we'll bring them in. And those two, though, every morning after would be kibbitzing about One Tree Hill, which I was like, this is lost on me. So when we went in for our meeting with One Tree Hill, I it was like Debbie and I were pen and tell her because she could do all the talking and she was like, and I love this, and I love when this happened, and I love when this happened. So it was really funny. But you know, the OC, which had all the fanfare, kind of burned out very quickly. And One Tree Hill was like the little engine that could.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I love that you bring up recording shows. I'm like, this episode is sponsored by TiVo. Where's TiVo now? Exactly. Yes. TiVo was the best. Yeah, and it had the special clicker. Yes. Oh my gosh, cassette tapes. That's so funny. And I I think again, the cast of One Tree Hill in a lot of these shows, it's so special because you bring up the OC. That was a very popular show, but it was a little bit more, I don't know, risque and sort of sexed up compared to this very small town show. And I know a lot of the actors spoke about how they tried to change the tone, like producers came in on One Tree Hill. And it makes me wonder too. I know casting, they're such advocates of actors. So do you find over the years you kind of have those calls with actors sort of helping them to figure out the moments of, I don't know, when they would raise their voice on certain things or sort of like championing them on their behalf? Because I think a lot of people don't realize how much y'all are in the show. I mean, you're it's not just like you cast it and then you're done. It's like you guys are the the dream makers and the the champions and the coaches and the Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I mean, we were fully in person because you know, we we were not a casting office that took well to self-tapes in the beginning. Agents and managers would offer them up and we'd be like, no, we'll just pre-read them. Like, sorry, it'll have to be in three days and it can't be tomorrow, but um, we'll get them in. And uh so we were just always about that. We didn't we didn't understand the self-tape and why people liked them and it and it almost seemed like just a way to for like an agent to get an audition for their client. And then we figured out, like, oh, these are like viable. The thing that we miss for whatever it's worth is when back in back in the horse and buggy days, when we used to sit with producers and writers and directors and parade actors in and have them put on their spectacle, which was so exciting. And whether we saw five people for a role or 10, or, you know, there were multiple sessions, the group of creatives had to use their memory and realize, you know, okay, this person made this impression on me. And I remember that they hit these notes and they're my choice. Whereas now with tapes, you could watch them over and over and over. And I feel like it's a whole different thing. That like the the gut instinct is a little dissipated, and I don't know. It is what it is, right? Evolution.

Kindness As A Casting Filter

SPEAKER_00

Um but we do to that end, because of that, we do end up having to advocate a lot of times if there's people that we believe in. For example, Amanda on Scrubs was someone who the first time she taped, it was fantastic. But for whatever reason, whatever moment that they watched her tape, they didn't respond. And we were both like baffled. And Amanda was living in New York and put on tape in New York, and we were speaking with the New York casting director and talking through this process. And we had to wait a little bit, and they took some variations on where they wanted the character to go. And we had her go back in and gave very specific notes, all of which she applied seamlessly, and they were like, this girl's amazing. And it was a prime example of like, like Debbie said, you know, out of sight, out of mind, and they don't have to remember necessarily. But we do have to do that a lot. And there's a lot of people who, you know, in the process we're like, we want to try this person again. We really feel that they have something, that you're you're missing it. Um, we say a lot, you know, if you don't see it immediately, give feedback to them in the room. Like that's the process, that's their job. And it's also gonna give you, as the producer, the opportunity to see if they can take a note, which is so important in comedy because, you know, especially you're talking about shifting gears or anything that's live, you have to be able to take a note on the fly and immediately, you know, put it down. So all that kind of stuff is really important.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And that's something I miss so much. And I think a lot of actors are directors, actors. And so to not have the casting director in the room with you when you're self-taping and you're sort of left to your own devices, it's really creative and fun. But then it's sort of like just it's not the same. So I love that you bring that up. And Debbie, what you said, I think a lot of actors can relate to that when we're going down maybe the spiral of choosing our own takes, because the more you kind of re-watch one, it it sort of loses its power in some ways, too, or you know, depending on the take. So it's interesting. I've never thought about it from the casting standpoint, you know, just watching the same thing. But I guess someone that didn't have to deal with this to have a clunky transition here was Harrison Ford, because he'd be off for only He's the one that's clunk it up on.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, what you all do, I think you're community makers, and he so eloquently, I mean, I just loved his speech at the SAG Awards this year. It was so good and touching. And he talked about how it can be really isolating at first, especially now when everything's virtual. How much does just being a kind, good human weigh into the scheme of things when you're casting? I know on shrinking they have a no-assholes policy, which I love.

SPEAKER_04

But it's like all Bill Launch shows. Like that is pervasive, yes.

Scheduling Chaos And Deal Reality

SPEAKER_00

Of course. Because you have to remember who we're sending to the set. You know, and it's we don't always have have that intel, so to speak, of someone. But we also learn very quickly from producers if there's an issue with someone because they'll say this person, whether it's someone showing up late to the set or there's a a host of things, or costume, or like the something happened in wardrobe or something happened in makeup. To be honest, we, meaning casting, are many times getting the best side of an actor because we're considered for many people the gatekeeper, right? And we're the first step. So they want to put best fates forward. But yeah, I think it is important. And I know there's many times, like Debbie and I will say, after someone reads, and producers are like, oh my God, that was so great. And if we have knowledge about them, because it's someone that we've had in before or we've hired before, to be able to say, oh my God, and they're the best person too. They're such a lovely person. Like, for example, Michael Urey. Like, Michael Urey is like, is as wonderful and generous and compassionate as you would imagine Michael Ure to be. He is everything and more. And so that's a guy that every success that he lands, and it's been so fun after he had this show, just watching his continued, like the Broadway stuff and um all of it. Because every time you're like, Yay, Michael, you deserve it, he deserves every part of it. And so that's a great thing to be able to say to your producers or whomever, like they're an amazing person, and we would be so lucky to even have them in our ensemble or in our world.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I can confirm he's kind from a non-casting standpoint. He's not just putting it on. No, he's such a talented, kind guy. And I think another kind person that you had, and uh it was very interesting to read about for this, I think past season specifically, was Heidi Gardner, who's so good on the show, but also had to balance being on SNL. And is that I know y'all get involved with the contracts and things like that. How has that sort of side of the casting process been? I'm sure it's never a dull moment.

SPEAKER_05

Brett should speak to that because he dealt with their people.

Staying Sane Under Deadlines

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, look, this is and we had a lot of that this, you know, like we've had we have a a number of it's an interesting thing because we have we have we we had a number of really wonderful people, Heidi Beanworth. One of them, um, Lily Rabe being another, um, Wendy Malik, who is just so love Wendy Malik so much. But, you know, when you have a situation when an actor is working on multiple things, of which all of those were, and we could start, you know, speaking to Heidi specifically, yeah, it becomes a little bit of a balancing act because we could only have Heidi on Mondays because she had to be back for Tuesday table reads for Saturday Night Live, which went through the entire week. So we'd have to fly her out on a Sunday to work Monday. And there was a lot of uh from all departments, people had to be creative in terms of juggling schedule, in terms of when, you know, a fitting was going to take place. So it was absolutely challenging. I know that's one of those things when you open the script and see them in you're like, oh my God. But we, you know, you do it. And and and um many of the actors will wanted to be make themselves a veil as they could because they wanted, they didn't want to not be in a particular episode. But it and, you know, we have really generous and gracious producers who to really try to work with everyone to try to make it work. Um, our line producer probably I'm I'm if he had, if he wasn't bald, he would be bald by now because he would pull all his hair out. But but he's incredibly patient. And I think line producers in particular have such a spectacularly hard job. And my hat's off to all of them. Um, I think it takes a really special person to do that particular job. But yeah, um, we definitely have challenges in that regard, but um, it's kind of who they want. And so you just kind of gotta go with the flow.

SPEAKER_02

He would be bald. That's a good memoir title, is it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

I think Kroger.

SPEAKER_02

Kip Kroger, you are a Kip. I love that. Well, it it's just one example of all the things you are dealing with. I'm always amazed when I get a tape on maybe a Friday and then it's due Monday or something, and I'm like, casting's watching hundreds of tapes over the weekend, and it just all these things make me wonder how are you too kind to yourselves in the process? Do you think about that at all? Do you feel like that's something you struggle with as creatives?

SPEAKER_05

I think that we have learned um the hard way not to put out too many self-tape requests at once, especially in like a pilot type situation. Because one time we put out like 200, but we um staggered when they were due, but that doesn't mean that that's when they come in. And um we always like we're so excited to watch the self-tapes. Like we want to see like what our options are, and and we also want to see if if we need to give notes to anyone and have them retape, and and you know, we want to have the um the group ready to go at a certain time to producers. So, you know, I think that it's um I don't know. I I I I see what you're saying. It's it we try to be kind to ourselves, but there is a a a level of um just that childlike, you know, ooh, what's in the bag kind of a thing that happens. Um, but you know, yeah, we work late at night, we work over the weekend, and that's just what the job is. Um, whether it's being available to our producer, our line producer who calls us at 8 a.m. And you know, we had this happen this year where they call us at 8 a.m. and they're like, we need this person in this episode. It's a new scene. Can they get on a plane at three o'clock? And we're, you know, uh on the phone and making it happen. And luckily, you know, things worked out that time. It doesn't always work out. You you know, you do your best.

Casting Keywords Lightning Round

SPEAKER_00

So we certainly have our moments. I know there's been many moments on a Friday evening where we're talking on the phone and it's you know, going on eight o'clock, and we'll both say, now we're going downstairs to pour a little bourbon into a glass with an ice sky, you know. So yeah. We do and and certainly you do have those moments when you're like, I'm fried. I just need to take a moment and I need to like, you know, or at lunch, I need 20 minutes just to close my eyes and recenter. And um yeah, there's there's totally that. I think if it's a pilot situation, you kind of know what you're going into. And it's also finite, right? So you can always look to the end and say, you know, I'm a kind of I'm a warrior. So when we go into a pilot, I'm always like, what if we don't find this part? And what if because there's always one role that's really hard to cast, and sometimes it's the part you never think it's gonna be. But I always get completely paranoid and think, you know, we're not gonna be able to get this cast. And the, you know, the shoot date's coming up, and inevitably it always works out. It just does. Mark Hirschfeld used to always say, you know, at the end of the day, there's gonna be someone there at the table. It's gonna work out. And um and that's the thing you have to remember. So that sometimes the process, as we always say, sometimes it's like birthing a watermelon, but you know, we end up with really pretty fruit. So wait, all I heard was watermelon.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sorry, you cut out, Pratt.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. I said we talk about sometimes it's like the process is like birthing a watermelon, but at the end of the day, we say, you know, you end up with some really pretty fruit.

SPEAKER_02

There you go. There you're saying watermelon peas and carrots.

SPEAKER_03

I'm like, yes, that's I did learn that in uh background work school.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's very theater-centric.

SPEAKER_05

Is most of the time a fire it is ignited at like 5 30 at night. It's it's always end of the day. So that really figures into um like if we're in the middle of watching a bunch of self-tapes, but a fire starts, we have to put the self-tapes on hold, deal with the fire, come back to them. Um, but you know, it's all like we make it work. That's that's all we know how to do.

SPEAKER_02

So that extinguisher, you gotta have it ready. I think, you know, there's never a dull moment. And this certainly has not been a dull moment. I've loved sharing some time with you both. And I thought we could end it with a fun little flash round game called casting keywords. And so the whole deal is to try and get some tangible tips for our friends listening here today. I'm gonna say a phrase, and then the both of you just finish it. You basically just finish the sentence with whatever pops into your head. It's sort of a flash round, but you know, I'm all reel in, I can take us down avenues. I'll try and stay calm. But I think we can we'll see what happens. Um but maybe you're on order.

SPEAKER_04

Brett, do you want to go first?

SPEAKER_02

I was gonna say You want to go second.

SPEAKER_04

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't matter. Yeah, I'll go first. Sure. But that's fine. Okay, BB, then DR, and then if you don't have one, you know, that's fine too. But I think you'll have one. Yeah, going to pass. Yeah, you can. You can. But I think you'll get it. Okay, the first one here is my favorite type of slate to watch is a clean one.

SPEAKER_00

Beautiful. Name height and location. If you have a passport.

SPEAKER_02

I do. Yeah, so not not bit ridden. I'm sure you sometimes see ones that are a little too long. Okay. Do you have something to add? No, that's who you said it exactly. Oh, sorry. Oh no.

SPEAKER_05

You know, I I think that uh, you know, it's a it's a good opportunity to say hi. I, you know, there's clean and then there's just like to show whatever it is that you want us to see quickly.

SPEAKER_02

I'm like, here's my cat. No, just kidding. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, the passport thing is what we deal with on scrubs if you have a passport. But otherwise, I think it's just important to know location because because we, you know, self-tapes can come from anywhere. That's just something we need to know. So we need to know if for like for shrinking, do we need to fly somebody in? Are they a local hire?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. What about this one? My biggest advice for actors during negotiations for a booking would be That's a hard one, only because, sorry, Brett.

SPEAKER_05

Um, it's huge. Most of the time w we fully disclose what we're gonna pay for a role, whether it be top of show, like most of the time, that's what it is, or scale. So, you know, listen, everybody has to do their job. And if your agent or manager want to ask if there's anything more because you've made more in the past, they are more than welcome to. And we will go to our producers, our line producer, and see if there's any movement. But a lot of times our budget is very tight, and that's why we put that information in a breakdown because that's what we have. So if you want to come play for that, we'd love to have you. And if that's not what works for you, you know, then don't submit.

Books That Spark New Ideas

SPEAKER_02

Okay. That makes sense. What about to me, proper onset etiquette is I think it's I think to remember what you're coming in to do.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's the same etiquette you would have in any job. It's be respectful, be on time, and I would say be kind. Um that's it. Yeah. I think you if you're hired. Sorry, I wouldn't say if you're hired, I think you know what you're there for. So be prepared. Yeah. I just heard the line. Because you know your lines, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So that you can play. Because a lot of people in the core cast are showing up with it locked down and they just want to play.

SPEAKER_02

Let's get that nailed into trailers everywhere. Know your lines, be prepared, and be kind. I think you can't go wrong with a little bit of kindness these days. When you two are on set, just to have a fun one, when I do a set visit, I usually go for this at the crafty table.

SPEAKER_01

What's your favorite snack? I don't know why I threw that in there.

SPEAKER_00

This is so funny because we're this far into it, and I thought we were alternating questions, which is why I never spoke up before and why I'm like, No, it was. Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah, I'm gonna do it. Yeah, no, I understand now. Hi. Welcome to the Zoom, Brett. Um I would also always go sweet. I don't it uh, you know, not like chocolate, but any kind of baked goods would be my default to go to first.

SPEAKER_02

Same, I know, big sweet tooth over here.

SPEAKER_05

Donut, brownie.

SPEAKER_02

I just saw a recipe for ice cream donuts, which I'll yeah, I'll try to send that to everybody listening. I'll I'll blast that out somehow. It looks so good. Okay, this one goes out to my friend Brett, who I know has a book warm podcast and has a beautiful background behind him with books. What is a book that recently inspired you both? So a book I was recently inspired by is You know what?

Advice To Keep You Going

SPEAKER_00

I will just say this. I just read this book, and it's funny because this is an interesting, really quickly, Debbie knows this story. It's called I'll I Leave It Up to You by Jin Wu Chong. And I read this book and I I loved it. It came out last year. It's it's so sweet. It almost reads like a really smart rom-com. And as I was reading it out, I kept thinking a lot of times when I read things, I think, God, this would be great to be developed with a limited series or something. And sometimes I will send stuff like to our production, to Doozer, who produces uh Shrinking and Scrubs and various other things, obviously, um, to say, you guys might want to check this out. But I read this book and I just loved it so much. And I kept thinking of Joel Kim Booster for this. And I almost went to reach out to Joel Kim Booster to say, Have you read this? You should check this out. And I called his manager, and it turns out that Adam Scott's company had optioned it already. Uh-huh. And with Joel Kim Booster. So it was just kind of a it was very kind of this serendipitous moment. And it, you know, unfortunately it it went out, but it didn't go beyond, you know, just in terms of a pitch, um, which I think is a shame. And I hope someone else can develop it because I think it's great. But that was just something to me, for me, sometimes I just get inspired by something if I read it and I think, wow, this would be so wonderful in a larger format.

SPEAKER_02

So that was that also confirms that you have a good eye. And that's what I'm trying to tell myself when I see like a screenplay I wrote or something, the same thing's coming out, or whatever it is. I'm like, it just means I have a good eye. You know, I think that's a good way to look at it. Sure, sure. Uh Debbie, do you have a book that you've read recently?

SPEAKER_05

I have a very uh uh intelligent and creative friend who wrote a book called Bless Your Heart. Her name is Lee Dunlap, and it is a thrilling murder mystery that takes place in Atlanta, and it also is ripe for development. Seriously. I mean, tons of strong women in their 30s, 40s, 50s. They all have husbands or some version of that, kids, and uh it's very atmospheric and uh keeps you on the edge of your seat. It really like you just fly through it. So I would say that because I'm gonna follow her.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It's great. It's great.

SPEAKER_05

Well, you know, that's something that they say, and you know, it's kind of a flippant comment.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I feel like I don't know why I'm like Kristen Chendewith could be in it. Um I'm casting it in my brain because I feel like she has said that in a lot of shows she's done. Anyway, side note, the class question we always end with here is a gotten or a given. So the best piece of advice you've either gotten in this industry or the best piece you have to give for all the creative folks out there listening today.

SPEAKER_05

Okay. Um I think I'm gonna like double up with Brett and say the best piece of advice I've gotten is Mark Hirschfeld, who said, at the end of the day, someone will be in the role. And the best advice to give is to believe in yourself. Know you've done your prep and you've given your best performance, walk out proud and know sometimes it just doesn't make sense. It's just not your role.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna play that on repeat and listen to that on repeat. That was beautiful. Thank you, Debbie.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I would say this, and I've I've said this story before. Um when I was at Carnegie Mellon, I went to Carnegie Mellon as an actor, and um we had this really wonderful teacher named Billy Wilson, who one of the things that Billy Wilson did is he did the first, I think the only all-black production of Guys and Dolls that was on Broadway. But Billy was telling a story about his own life when he started in the business, and he said he was reading a kind of a casting call, and he said, and it said, bring your headshot and resume. So he said, I proudly went down and I dropped off my head shot and I resumed. And that, and he said, and you all need to do that too. And I remember thinking that was just such a great, and it kind of ties into what Debbie just said. It's unfortunately you don't always know how your thing is landed if you don't land the job. But that doesn't mean you haven't made an impression, and that doesn't mean that we don't remember who you are. And for whatever reason, in the whole machinations of uh the world of entertainment, a decision was made that sometimes has nothing to do with what you did, and there's something else that ended up doing it. But have faith that you are talented and we will remember, and there is going to be something for you. Uh so hang in there.

SPEAKER_02

So encouraging. I love that so much. My nanny, who is in the other room, again, always says, you never know who's watching. And so it's it's and it's not a creepy thing, nanny. It's a good thing sometimes. So I really appreciate what you both said. And I have just loved getting to share some time with the both of you. I think you're wonderful. I'm a huge fan of all the work you've done, and I'm just grateful that we have this dynamic duo in this industry to look up to that's leading with kindness and not only creating great content, but sort of, you know, bet building a better business. So thank you both.

SPEAKER_05

Thanks, Robert. Thank you for you.

SPEAKER_02

It's really wonderful.

SPEAKER_05

Wonderful to chat.

Head Shot

Robert Peterpaul

Host