How Actors Can Play the Long Game with Netflix Casting Director Julie Tucker

Emmy-Winning Casting Director Julie Tucker (Netflix's The Beast in Me) shares honest insights on how the entertainment industry is shifting and what golden acting advice remains true no matter what. The CD and teacher joins How We Role: a Podcast for Actors host Robert Peterpaul to chat self-tapes, survival jobs, and what actors can control right now in their career.

In this interview for actors, you'll learn:

• Why virtual auditions still dominate and what returning to offices looks like
• Kindness as respect that creates safety and courage in auditions
• A healthy actor mindset for beginners and why it can be a golden period
• Survival jobs that feed your craft and build character (literally)
• What makes an audition feel undeniable versus merely “good”
• The differences in casting a limited series versus network TV
• Why you should stop after three self-tape takes 
• How casting is championing you behind the scenes
• Why a mistake in the audition can actually help you book, plus more

JULIE TUCKER, C.S.A., is a two time Emmy-winning and five-time Artois Award-winning Casting Director with a career spanning two decades. The East Coast-based creative has worked on everything from the Oscar-nominated short film Red White & Blue starring Brittany Snow to the Queen Latifah led hit CBS series The Equalizer. Some other notable credits include: The Americans, The Affair, Nurse Jackie, Damages, Six Feet Under and Homeland. Today's chat revolves around her more recent hit: the Netflix juggernaut The Beast in Me starring Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys. 

This is - How We Role. Discover fresh casting calls at castingnetworks.com.

Follow Host, Actor and Producer Robert Peterpaul (Amazon's Sitting in Bars with Cake, The Art of Kindness podcast) on Instagram @robpeterpaul and learn more at robertpeterpaul.com.

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Transcript

Welcome To How We Roll

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, I'm Julie Tucker. I am approximately 5'6, and you're listening to How We Roll.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

When it comes to working in entertainment, there's a lot of hows, and they all boil down to how we navigate this wild industry. While how we follow our dreams is uncertain, how we roll along the way is in our hands. Welcome to How We Roll, a podcast for actors by casting networks. Hello, fellow actors. It's your friend Robert Peter Paul back with the summer of casting. To kick off the sunny season, we've been bringing you interviews with today's sunshiniest CDs. And I'm not talking about a CD mixtape that used to be in the back of my car in the 90s. Next up, we have what some might call a casting beast to answer many hows, the joyful Julie Tucker. Julie Tucker is a two-time Emmy-winning casting director with a career spanning two decades. The East Coaster has worked on everything from the Oscar-nominated short film Red, White, and Blue, starring Britney Snow, to the Queen Latifah-led hit series The Equalizer. Some other notable credits include The Americans, The Affair, Nurse Jackie, Damages, Six Feet Under, and Homeland. Related to Homeland, Julie comes to us on the tail end of Netflix's hit series, The Beast in Me, starring Claire Danes and Matthew Reese, which I devoured like a beast. Honestly, I could have talked to Julie all day. She was so thoughtful in her answers, which I really appreciated, giving an honest update on how she thinks the industry is currently doing, how actors can find the best survival jobs, how doing more than three audition takes really does you a disservice in the end, and how mistakes might actually work for you. Plus, so much more. This episode is a garden blooming with incredible wisdom, and I hope you enjoy walking through it as much as I did, friend. Please share this with a pal who's also a creative and be a part of our next episode by submitting your hows on social media at casting networks and at Rob Peter Paul. Now here's how we roll with casting director Julie Tucker. We're rolling. You know, our paths have kind of crossed over the years a bit, and I'm so thrilled to finally share just some time with you. I truly admire you as a leader so much and obviously love a lot of the projects that you've put your Midas touch on. I know you're in the midst of even casting a show now, I think. So I just appreciate you making the time to chat.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. And appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Oh, thanks. Well, how are you doing? How are we finding you today? Where are we at?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I'm good. And I am in the I am in the trenches of casting. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's gonna be amazing, just like the Beast in Me. Whoa. What um one of my favorite new shows of the past decade, I feel like. And I'm gonna geek out about it. We'll get there. But before we sort of hop in our what is he drive? Probably like a Porsche, very sleek, and go on down to that beautiful suburb. I'd like to start with the very beginning. What was your first paid gig in the entertainment industry? And what do you feel like your takeaway was from it?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

So like the very beginning, like the internship was at the public theater, right? The Joseph Pott Public Theater with uh um the incredible Heidi and Jordan there. And while it wasn't like paid, like it like it paid me enough to basically take the path train from Jersey where I was lived with my parents to um to the um Are you from New Jersey, by the way? I am enough. Well, I mean, I've been here long enough

First Paycheck And Early Lessons

SPEAKER_01 4:05

where I feel like I am. All right.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

You could tell from my big hair. Um I'm from New Jersey, so I I get excited.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Really big hair, it's just kind of contained right. Um so it was a public theater, and even though it was a it was a very small paid gig, it was a stipend that, as I was saying, kind of barely covered the cost to go from Jersey City across to the public in at, you know, in the in the East Village. Um, it paid in a different kind of currency, which I think is a really important thing to kind of always take to perspective. It wasn't necessarily the actual money paid side of it, but the artistry that I learned from Heidi and Jordan and um Rosemary at that time and also Nancy gave me the foundation of what I do today and also skill sets. Now, interestingly enough, I didn't and I didn't go into casting right out of that. I went off and uh worked with directors and writers. Specifically, they introduced me to Martin Charnon, uh, the creator of Annie, and he was doing a benefit at the public. So we did that, and then we did many other projects. But that was, I guess that would actually be my first like, oh, I have a paycheck. I could buy a meal.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

That's important. That is important.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Exactly, exactly. My lunch. Um, so to speak. Um you know, it's and I guess, you know, like the the privilege of everything in that moment was the fact that my parents did live in New Jersey. So it was an easy commute across. And I could do the internship and and I could uh take time to find the path. Um, that's funny, because the path training is literally take the path.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

But I'll find the path to today, you know. And I think that's uh figuring that side, the economy out of the pursuit is like is is is part of the j the journey for all of us, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, brilliantly said. I think the pursuit, the process is really the important thing, right? We focus a lot on the outcomes, but I think that's a great way to start. And looking at that path you went down, you know, the sun did come out tomorrow because you mentioned Andy here. And you're a beloved casting director in New York City. I mean, crazy. My fellow actors, everyone just buzzes about you and loves you. You're one of those stapled New York CDs right now. And my friend, mentors on the mic, shout out to another podcast here.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I love Michelle.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Michelle's the best. I was just texting her, complimenting the conversation you both had. And you discussed the state of the industry about a year ago with her, and it's a year later, so I felt like it would be nice just to pick things up where they are, find out where you think they are. To me, it feels better, but then slow again, and you know, the East Coast market is also killing it at the same time. But what are your thoughts on the current landscape?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yeah. You know, it's shifting. If you literally think of landscape and weather, there's a lot that's occurring. So you know, within within that framework, there are pockets that are thriving and um

The Industry Landscape Right Now

SPEAKER_01 7:03

feel abundant. But then then there's also areas that are in more of kind of the the rebirth stage where it's bare. So it's from where I'm sitting it's it's a very gray answer, right? Um because there for us, for for what we've been doing, there has been continuous work in New York. You know, we we you know wrap something in Canada, for instance. We have um Doc that shoots over there and Sheriff's Country that shoots over there. And then we rolled right into the first like kind of pilot season pilot with NBC doing victimology, which was really fun and amazing. I was like, I haven't done like a pilot pilot since it feels like a little around like right maybe pre-COVID. I don't I I've losed I've lost track of time. Have some time I want to like do like a timeline of of our our world recently. But so into that, and then into um conviction, which is a a new show that we're just in the process of casting. So there's there is work, so it does feel abundant out here and um and as I talk to other casting directors, it it does, but then there's the flip side that it's not, so it's the the landscape is is maybe it's perspective where one is in the exact moment. It is going through a transition. So I think with any transition, there is a it there's a period of it that it has kind of um, you know, where the landscape you look at, you're like you're not seeing it yet. But I do, you know, I am somewhat of an optimist that way. I kind of try to say a realistic optimist, but I do think there's stuff bubbling underneath that that once it starts growing, we'll will begin to feel abundant again, you know, because I think it's there's no great joy and um it it it's uh it's great to work, but you you kind of want to feel like people that it's that everyone's working.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah. There's a great resilience, I think, to our industry too that always makes me feel optimistic. And I love the beautiful metaphor of the landscape, and it makes me wander along that landscape. And I think it depends, of course, now on the budget and if the studio provides one sometimes. But are you back in the room? Have you you been able to get back in the room a little bit, or is it mostly still virtual?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

It's still virtual, but so it's it, it's still virtual, but there isn't easy. There is a kind of slow process, you know, dare I say, I I might be on a month to month with it, but I have an office. Like I don't have like the commitment to it yet. Like it's like we're dating me in the office space. There is an office, right? And I'm, you know, inching my way into setting it up so that it can do in person. Um the thing in my world is it's very difficult, is the transition in the middle of a project. Um so I am in the middle of a project, so I am beginning to kind of learn what it feels like to leave, you know, my home office, which is where we're in today, to go across the river to try back at where my office office is. And so I kind of split my time doing a little bit of both. I do a lot more zooms and not as many. I haven't done any in the in the office. I've done some meetings in the office, which has been really nice. But I'm like to order the furniture and there's a wall, yeah. And I need someone who's gonna come in and tell me how to like set it up for taping now because you don't need as much stuff, you know, because I know. Basically, it's like a living room that would be like a self-tape space for people, but except

Virtual Casting And Office Return

SPEAKER_01 10:35

I'm there to work on a project. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Well, you know, looking at that space or even virtually, because even just during this brief time together, you you have such a warm energy that's really beautiful. And I wonder if that's something you think about in regards to setting the tone of the space for actors in an audition, since you're the leader of the space, and I know it depends on time and you know, I'm sure you're just naturally a kind person, but what are your thoughts there on how we can kind of come on this beautiful landscape together and start our casting journey? Because that's where the collaboration really begins with actors and casting directors in the audition space.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, I mean, it it definitely is like kindness is my religion. Like if someone was to ask me what my religion was, it that would definitely be kindness is my my religion. Really?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

I say that all the time. This pillow says kindness matters. Sorry, I'm a big kindness.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, I love it. And what I love about kind is it's not nice. It's not like it's not, it's not even polite. It's it is it is respect and it is, you know, within that framework, usually one ends up being nice and this and and but and polite. But at the same time, one can be really kind and fierce. And I think that's an important thing to be and protective and advocate within the framework of of the kindness. Um, so it is it is like something that I consciously make check in with myself about, especially if you know other things are influencing me, especially as actors are coming into my space, be it a Zoom, even actors come into my space now in various ways. They come into my space via their agents and managers too. So how I talk to them, how I'm able to respond to an email, I take, I take all that into consideration. Um it's passing something forward. And um and and at the root of everything is like we're all in

Kindness Sets The Audition Tone

SPEAKER_01 12:23

this very creative field where we're all you know, could we have the industry side, but we're really trying to constantly tap into the artistry because that's what kind of push us through that industry, right? And that's why we got into it. So and myself included in that. So I I feel connected to the kindness as a as it as it also as a guiding principle, as it as it does uh create a structure for for the best in people to to show up.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, and it gives back to you as well. I mean, there's science behind what you just said too, beautifully, which is that you pay it forward and then it has a a ripple effect. It's not just on a pillows, like it actually does have a ripple effect.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

It's a huge currency.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Kind of coming back to the top. It's a huge, it's a huge, it's it's a huge currency. Uh and it allows our nervous systems to to be more resilient and to to be in the best space to be the most courageous parts of ourselves, which is which is what I'm always when I'm holding a space, be it on a Zoom or you know, when I was in the room, that's kind of what you need from the actor. You need them to feel courageous, to, to be, to be in the most present moment to do their work.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, and being kind is sort of the formula to kindness. I think you put that so nicely. And you're touching on another thing I admire about you is that everybody listening, you can't see this unless you're watching, but you know a lot about what goes on up here. And I hear you talk a lot about how actors can ground themselves and sort of get out of their own way in this business. We have a lot of beginners that tune in. Hello, friends, thanks for being here. I wonder if there's a practical tip you can share in that regard on maintaining a healthy actor mindset in this landscape that we've just kind of set the tone with.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah, no, I okay, yeah, a hundred. All right. So if you're a beginner, you are in the best stage of it right now because you are you are not hit with all the responsibilities of somebody who is midway or even has sustained a a decade of a career and has um relied on it to basically provide for their everything, right? So in the beginning stage, you are in this and you are you are in like a golden period. Um, and it's easy to get caught in the head and project into the future and the worries as opposed to like this is the time to be connected to the artistry of what you're doing and your survival jobs. And look, those survival jobs also teach you a lot about these characters you are later going to play in the world.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Can we name some too? What do you think are great survival jobs for actors? Because we do get questions about that.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

You know, in today's world, it's really you can go out and navigate because yourself because like so, okay. So in the old days, way back when, when you had to kind of come into an audition, you would then have to ask for that time off from work or just shoot out. And then you'd have to sit there and pray in the in the audition room that like we were on time, which we never were, right? So

Beginner Mindset And Survival Jobs

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I think the the kind of market of what you can do is is wide open because to self-tape is something, you know, we were like, all right, I'm gonna do it at 6 a.m. the same way I might work on my own project at six at 6 a.m. You have the outside, you have the outside windows if you need them. So your survival job could be something you actually like really are invested in and love to. You know, honestly, I think one of the best survival jobs is temping because you get into worlds and you have to act.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

And then later in life, when you have to play a lawyer or an accountant or whatever it is, you have that exposure and you and you don't have to act it. You're like, oh, I know how to be this, I was around it. Um the more one's in the world and engaging with various jobs and work, um, the more one can bring that into one's work. I think the most important thing is that it doesn't um weigh on you in the soul way. That you that there is something that feels really purposeful within that. And look, honestly, purpose is I'm paying my rent, I'm paying my student loans. That is a huge purpose. Um especially when you're right out of school or just starting out and being able to like have that independence is everything.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Oh my gosh, yeah. I think a lot of people are gonna appreciate that answer. That was really cool. And it actually feeds a bit into possibly the answer to your next question, which is from one of our lovely listeners at underscore Alaska Rova underscore A underscore Alaska Rova, cool name, first of all. I need to call SAG and change that to be my name. No, I won't copy you. When you're watching someone's audition, what catches your attention the most? Is there one thing that kind of like you notice about actors when you're watching a tape that sort of just snaps you into it?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Oh, you feel it. So it's a feeling, it's like you're pulled in in a in a different way than paying attention. And it's no different from being in the room. So like you have my attention, I'm there, I'm watching, I'm thinking, I'm like, but when I'm pulled in, that's a whole other thing. And I and and I like notice that. And I'm like, oh, whoa, I'm affected. And so that's and that could be they're right for the role, or it could just be that they're just something about them is affecting me. And even though they're not right for this role, it's something else. Um but I'm I'm not thinking as much about the performance when that's happening. So otherwise I'm paying attention, I'm like, oh, interesting. Oh, that's no great beat. Oh, ooh, interesting. Oh, what note would I want to give them? Okay, do they live in, you know, like my brain is working. And when it stops, it's a very kind of peaceful state. You're just right.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

And it's like I love the peace through. Yeah. Well, it's sort of like it's very theatrical of you, right? It's like when you go to sit down and see a show, whether it's Broadway or regionally, it sometimes takes a scene or two to get into it, but then there's that collective moment we feel of like, okay,

What Makes An Audition Click

SPEAKER_00 18:24

we're in. It's the inciting incident, whatever it is. And it is a feeling.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

I love that. I love that analogy. It's that's a great analogy because it is that. And that was, you know, what I grew up doing. And still, you know, it within the theater, yeah, I d I do. So that's a great analogy.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Sometimes with with TV too, thank you, as well. Like Netflix's hit thriller, the beast in me, which immediately I was like, I had an acting coach once that it was like the that's how she sort of did it with her hands. So that's why I'm yeah, I'm doing it, blacking out and doing it. But if you have not watched The Beast in Me, everyone, please pause this, run to your television set, well, or your computer or whatever you're listening to this on, watch it come back. It centers on author Aggie Wiggs, which I think is a nice nod to Agatha Christie just saying, who has receded from public life since the death of her young son, finding an unlikely subject for a new book when the house next door is bought by a real estate tycoon. So I'm the most curious, I think, about the collaboration aspect here. I know the the show started in the hands of the one and only Jody Foster, which is so cool years back, and then she delivered it to Claire Dean's, and then things progressed. How did you climb aboard The Beast?

SPEAKER_01 19:33

So Claire brought in Howard Gordon, and I have been fortunate enough to be collaborating with Howard Gordon. We have been doing Accused and uh, you know, of course, Howard. I I Howard and I crossed paths very early on when he was doing Homeland. I was in New York doing the pilot stage of it. We didn't end up going on to the series, so we kind of went our separate ways in that moment without really knowing it. It just something else was going on in in my life. Um and so I was really grateful when uh Sony reintroduced us, uh, Don Steinberg and Randy Sugarman and uh brought me, you know, into his world through through this show called The Accused, and uh, which was on Fox for two seasons, an amazing piece. And then uh when Claire brought him into the beast of me, he brought me along.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah. And well, I'm so glad. Did you have to do a pitch for that as well? Or was it kind of just like, I mean, I know you're so acclaimed, but I have learned through doing this podcast how similar casting directors have it to actors in the sense that you kind of have to audition too sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah. That one in that case, no, no. It was a very fortunate one. Yeah, and you know, and but I have I have done them um not so much recently as much. I've done some meet, like meet and greets, which I never know what they are.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Um Does anybody I know I think it's just like making friends, right? Being people.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

So I I look at that too sometimes when we're meeting. Um but yeah, it is similar to how an actor a hundred percent. I mean, we we live it in a very similar way. Our narratives are very similar.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I'm sure there's a lot of similarities in the sense of it being a limited series, but I wonder, since this is, you know, essentially three or four movies, it's like making three or four movies. Yeah. As far as what actors don't know, I do wonder about the differences in casting a streaming limited series comparing to sort of something like a network, because your career is kind of run the gamut. So what have

Getting Hired For The Beast

SPEAKER_00 21:31

you noticed there?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Goodness. So I would start by saying like each each show is its own little village, regardless to where it lives. So each show is gonna have its own tone and you know, tone is a really huge part of it. Um and aesthetics and what it you know, versus like something that's gonna shoot really clearly in New York versus not. Um so there there's there's that side of it. when we're when we're building out and constructing the world um together with the actors. You know, the the the biggest difference I can really say is is less so much from the place where it lives, right? And more a limited series is, you know, is a is a longer story that's character and plot driven. Whereas a lot of times in your network, you're gonna still you're gonna have a storyline that kind of travels throughout the whole season, but you're gonna have story story of the week. And so um you're when you're looking at a story of the week, you go into it and you're like, okay, I know the beginning, middle, and end for this actor. I know the progression, I know the wheelhouse, I know what's needed. Great. And so like it's it's it's easy for you to kind of easy is a wrong word, but I know what you mean. One can begin to think of the actors and read actors and and go through one's files and one's kind of brain of who those actors are because it's a very, it's a very clear A B C what you're gonna need, no surprises down the road. When you have the character that potentially is um threading through a season of a network show, or you're on a limited series and you don't have script eight of eight and you don't know where it's going, then then your real house, you have to just go and find actors that you know no matter what can go where they're going to need to go and that you have proven evidence that that's what they do. All actors, all actors feel they can do that, but under the pressure of a television show, it's not necessarily something that

Limited Series Versus Network Casting

SPEAKER_01 23:44

can always be delivered for and so and my job is to not put the actor in a situation where they can't deliver the unknown ask.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

And so the limit unknown ask that's a good title.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Right? I don't know. It's like funny unknown ask. So it's it is there there is that um element to it of casting it is you know it's interesting because like I I think what's really fun is to kind of collage it all together when you're casting it, to kind of bring in to bring in the unexpected on a stream or that you wouldn't necessarily always and then to bring in someone unexpected on the on the broadcast network side that also maybe is a little not as traditional as you're used to seeing there.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

So yeah this and this certainly had those delights. I mean I do know that was the case right for the Beast in me. You didn't know the ending. They were writing it in real time, which you already touched on a question I had, which was how that sort of affects your your process. But I mean one unexpected delay and then I I have to go into Claire and Matthew otherwise I will just like burst through the ceiling. For me, and I don't know what about it, I guess I can't pinpoint what felt very refreshing and surprising was but just to see Britney Snow pop up in that role I thought was so cool. And then we kind of ended up being in a snow essence, you know, renaissance of snow, a snowfall, a snowstorm so talk to me about that decision because it felt like we were seeing her in a new light like you were kind of just touching on yeah it was a joy.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I love Brittany so much. So Britney did a short film for us why isn't the title out of my head like uh I have red, white and blue in my brain on it but it was this beautiful beautiful short and I should I should find it and we should hyperlink it because it's such an important piece. Um and it kind of highlighted like the range of her as an actress which if you looked at her real before then you could see it. I mean I was somewhat obsessed with her prior to that which is a fun thing about casting is you like you could you're like a fangirl of all these people and then you like get to put them into different things or meet them and uh work with them on something. So in that case she had done this incredible short it was an Oscar nominated short in the end she had gone from that to shooting um the hunting wives wait the hunting wives if you have IMDB open it will tell you you and you um do do do did you ever watch Kim Possible?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

I always feel like the Kim Possible that's a that's a Disney Channel reference probably dated too old that the guy behind the computer going like this. I think it was red, white and blue. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Okay I was correct. Yeah. Um so yeah so we had done that together and it was just extraordinary her work in that was extraordinary and again it was Oscar nominated the film the short I was off casting Doc even when that film the short dropped and I remember um one of my executive producers on that saying they're working on this other project the Hunting Wives right and then that that they were showing that that specific piece because she was off I think shooting something um and so they were showing that specific piece

Britney Snow And Self Tape Value

SPEAKER_01 27:01

for that job. Which is just interesting to just know as an actor that like that's how work works, right? Yeah a short little film. And then when we got to this we we were reading everybody every role and she was generous enough as were a lot of other actors to put down a self-tape. Wow so she self-taped and that um so in the process of self-taping it allows us to see how she would do it and understand like that perspective and understand what it would look like and sound like if it was Britney opposed to kind of having to imagine it which we can do I can do but you know with every project there are you know about no less than a dozen at least sign offs that have to go. So you have to you have to have someone that somebody that that amount of people can imagine this journey with. So when someone is generous enough at a certain point in their career to still put down self-tapes it's incredibly helpful. And I will say it's also really useful because there are self-tapes in that that that of other actresses that read for that same role that we all watched and considered but while they didn't end up there, they are in they end no self-tape is ever like that self-tape is a seed for so many other things. The same way except the self-tape is really tangible, I can go back to it and look at it and and I have it there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

It's really I love that you talk about that. No, I think that's useful information for actors to remember in that you kind of, you know, for lack of a better phrase book the room, book the person, just make a relationship because you might put that out into the ether and hear nothing, but then two years later you might go back into your little file cabinet online and and find that in your library and say, oh my gosh. So it it's it's really cool. I I think a lot of people don't realize that I'm wondering about two other actors on the show that it hinges on. We have Claire Danes of course who's always fabulous and Matthew Rees who I don't know if I've been living under a rock like Patrick Starr, but I'd never really seen him. This is one of the best on-screen pairings I've seen in a, in a long time. I mean it's like watching a master tennis match of dialogue and it's so cool to see that dynamic duo of two people that are just fascinated by each other's brains, you know and and I heard the role of Niles specifically who Matthew ended up playing was one of the most incredibly difficult to cast. So how did you land on him? Was it like another self-tape situation and then a chemistry read?

SPEAKER_01 29:36

I mean I know he's so acclaimed so I don't know but I mean I mean I it it was not actually it was a different it was a very different process. I mean I feel like he was overseas doing something at the time of this process. I forget what it was. So of of course you know we started on the Americans many lifetimes ago and like the first seasons of it um and so had a strong sense of uh kind of what he the fullness of what he could do. Do you know what I mean? Um and then in in addition to that 20th also was in the studio also had a lot of belief in in in all in in that with him as did Netflix too. So when once you kind of have all those parties with a momentum behind somebody, you know what you do is you begin to dig up tape. You dig up tape. You go like on a taping search to like what can we show you know that you know within each universe like the studio, the network and then the producing team, you have all these people like we said before that have to get on the page. So you go you start digging up tape and you start curating tape and I feel like maybe it was Lindsay Gusabian some somebody found like the perfect part tape, right? And in this in the meantime, um my office had also seen him do a reading at the Y and was like this guy get this guy. We were out of our minds so like when you have and and so that also had just lights a different fire because you're just like you know it's um you you feel that had a passion after having seen somebody live in space too yeah

Casting Matthew Rhys With Tape

SPEAKER_01 31:12

um so once once you have all that that takes a lot of time like what I'm describing in a sentence or two because a lot of time and a lot of like this piece of tape, that piece of tape you're throwing you're you're like you're collaborating with other people looking for the tape that's going to end up being three minutes. I mean that's the hard thing about curating tape is you're literally becoming an editor of somebody's entire career up to then and I will say the other I will we will also go and be like find things that they did where you know it maybe they're like like he wants there's some great some great of him um you know where you just you go online you find other random things. Yeah show the personality because people ask questions about somebody and you're like oh they got this too they got that too because it's it is you know television requires the highest level of artistry but the but the nature of putting it together does not always collide with the process of what how artistry actually works. So it's like these like dueling energies coming together and I also think that's kind of what makes the magic in the end is those kind of those those conflicting energies that tension then allows for that to allows for what you all then watch in a performance and respond to I think there's another role too that I will also say is that it was shifting what was on the page. So while it was difficult to cast it was also they were they were in the they were in a writing process with it too. So it's never it's never like nothing is happening in a vacuum in in it. And so like we're all kind of responding to each other that way and you're kind of like okay wait it's this way on the page it reads like this it's been okay but now it's shifting here. So creatively you're shift we're shifting a a little bit of who we're thinking of now.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

And so yeah that's an important lesson too oh my goodness I mean he just has this sort of fun puck of Midsummer Night's dream energy to him. That's a great and he's just terrible but you you can't help but love watching him. It's sort of on a different level like Billy credup and The Morning Show has that kind of playful energy. I just fantastic performance and I wonder yeah I was curious about how much of that was on the page during the breakdown because I think as actors especially if you don't have much time you learn to kind of bring yourself to it but also some folks can kind of get stuck in what's in the breakdown. Also you could have a side hustle creating demo reels for people first of all I was now you have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

You have no idea. So by the way, even with a self-tape, I have to send real like clips. I literally have to go in it it's a whole it's like another full-time job of querying material so that after they finish watching an actor do their do their scenes for them that my producing team can then kind of see them on film and other things that are aligned with that role or maybe a little adjacent but that aren't so far tonally off just a sidebar.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Oh my gosh. So No, I love that sidebar because I wonder how us actors can make it easier for you. I know every office has different sort of quirks about them, but as far as like uploading the tapes, do you like it as one tape if there's two takes, is it helpful to upload everything separately? Like the nitty gritty of that, what really helps you when you're on your end doing all this work for an actor to have right so with with the self-tape itself.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

So the audition itself you know like look it makes it so much easier if it's clearly labeled you know scene one take one scene two take one scene two take two. It's um scene two take fifty. No I'm just kidding I know that doesn't matter I get that I get that too no no it is really hard and some of the best of you you know some of the people that are nearest and dearest to me they dump in like 14 takes not 14 completely but it feels like that when I'm looking at it. Oh my goodness. And I'm like you know I'm watching you know I'm watching a half hour of one actor in that moment, you know, and the scene and I'm and I'm editing and I'm trying to figure out which is the best take and like sometimes I'm going back and so it's I think the the it look it's so hard because when when you all were in the room with us we we did the selective part of that process for you. And we did it on our eight in that moment usually occasionally we'd go back to it but usually our notes we just we'd mark it down. It was in it was intuitive.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

So I get being asked now to like look at something and select is really excusing oh yeah and the more you more takes you do the harder it becomes it's sort of like do three maybe then assess because it it's very hard once you have even 10 to kind of be like no so once you're once you're really past three, something in your preparation is off.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Okay. So like your preparation should be such that you are stepping into your tape center, your Zoom setup, whatever it is that is your specific workspace that you're stepping in and you're like, I'm gonna go and you're due to do that job in that space. And if you need to do another take it is a specific reason. It's because that was that approach

Self Tape Labels And Best Practices

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I have this other idea I want to try. I'm gonna try that or okay I blew so much of that scene I have to scratch it completely. I don't need to go back and look at it it's a scratch. But really not one of those reasons then something's up with the preparation and your mindset.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

And I'm pointing in this direction because I think one of the hardest things about the self-tape is the idea that like I think a lot of times because I would totally be like this if I was an actor I'd be like okay I'm ready. I'm gonna I got I'm gonna rehearse and then when I'm ready I'm gonna start. So no no your mind is not going to be happy you're like your your actor self is not going to love that. Your actor self needs like I'm gonna go somewhere else even if it means I'm gonna turn my camera around or have a different light or I don't know whatever ritual I'm gonna just create a little bit of difference between my self my work that I'm gonna send and my prep. So I'm the honor that there's still prep. So that then I'm gonna have some adrenaline maybe because I'm like, okay, I'm just I'm gonna step into this other space. Yes. And that adrenaline would be like when you're coming in the room and I think that's a really something that while you know um we talk a lot about how not to be nervous and I love it's like my obsession there is a part of that that is an activating force and that is really important and that to tie that into a self-tape I think is is is part is like to have that excitement I'm gonna step into this and and I'm only gonna give myself three shots at it the same way in the room.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

I love that so much. I mean I you're killing it also with the theater connections because it's very much like the self-tape can be your opening night, right? And there is just a a different energy there to when you know even if the camera it's not the same as as an audience, but feeling like the light on you is very different than being downstairs or outside and pacing in your backyard, whatever it is. Like I think that's

Three Takes And Better Preparation

SPEAKER_00 38:28

a beautiful distinction you just made.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

And give yourself that space and then hit send and figure out what to do with your life. Do you know what I mean? Because literally I mean like on so many different levels because you know sometimes you know we used to live in an almost instantaneous culture. Like you'd come in the room and you'd either know within like 12 hours if there was more interest and then maybe even you booked it, maybe you were at wardrobe. Now it's like a forest could grow before you hear back from us.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Julie this is my next question. I know for network shows with myself with co-star things, like you said, sometimes it's within the two days, you know, then you're in the fitting how much time usually passes with a streaming show like this? I guess we could take co-stars specifically since a lot of our listeners are maybe in that world, but it it really could be two days or or two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Is it at least it really depends. So if I'm not in production yet, you know, we could put out a breakdown on conviction for the co-star roles on let's say on Monday. We're not shooting till June 22nd. So what I'm doing is I'm taking that time to like welcome everybody in to like to get all the tapes organized to have it there for me to then reflect on it. But I'm not able to send that to my team yet till they're really past these other roles that they have. And those roles like I could have someone who read on the first day that I started this project and for whatever reason maybe it's because we have to cast a parent or maybe we have to cast this role first. Everything kind of affects everything they don't hear back from us for eight weeks. It's really hardly agents.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah I was wondering do you get a lot of check-ins from agents like a lot more than you used to get yes and I I feel for them I feel for them because the process is you know we're in like an ur we you know unfortunately the world we there's like an urgency culture to everything right as Americans it's part of I won't get into that. I agree retweet yeah it's another one right the urgency culture and so as a result of urgency culture it's like if you haven't heard from me something's wrong. They don't like no we're in process. And so a lot of times I'm asked for definitive answers where I'm like I don't have it yet they still like them. They like someone else too with them. I don't know which direction they're gonna go yet they're in process which sounds you know wow but they are and they're figuring out the whole picture and there's so many elements that go into play and um and it's you know it's it's it's the it's look 2020 and the kind of pivot into the virtual and us all losing touch with each other has created that kind of gap of

Why Decisions Can Take Weeks

SPEAKER_01 41:11

um where we are left to just kind of create the story in our head and then we culturally create the story with it too. We kind of create a cultural narrative.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Well I what I think is so beautiful about what you do is that it's sort of the anecdote to today's world because you're community makers. You're bringing people together which just forget the industry. I mean just on a a human level we we need more of that. And I could ask you 27,000 more questions. I can't believe we're almost getting to time but I'd love to before we do it a little surprise game. I'd love to know about the guest star circuit in particular I spoke with someone the other day who great reminder every role serves the story but for a lot of actors they've gotten used to sort of that okay maybe I'll I'll cut my teeth in background on a set maybe I'll get some co-stars if I'm lucky then I'll start to get a guest star audition. And it can be an incredible step with the state of things a lot of known actors are now taking guest star roles and and maybe smaller screen time. I'm wondering if there's an actor listening who's maybe ready to make that leap.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

I feel like keep appreciating the what you're doing and what's coming to you, right? So like I think that's a really important thing to to appreciate what is currently in process and what you currently are working on. Then I say in your spare time outside of what auditions you're getting, start prepping for that other role. Because opportunity will come and one wants to be ready when it comes, right? So I I feel that it's you know it's it's kind of like digging up some material being that's the role I want to play you watch a show you're like, oh I want to play that how do I get sides for that? And and just work on it. Just work on stuff, work on where you want to go so that when when that opportunity shows up, the muscles are already ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah, I love that. Okay, Googling Niles Jarvis sides for when we're older. Well speaking of I love seeing and I don't know if she had a bigger role and maybe it was cut down but I love seeing Tony nominee Jen Kalella just pops up in the end. Was that Jen Kalella? I mean so you're pulling in such like iconic New York faces like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Yeah so lovely to see she's such a kind soul to speaking about kindness is more fun for me than when when someone wants to just come and play and do something, you know, and just pop in. Yeah I mean that I Beast was like a accumulation of like all my time in in this industry like from Kate Burton to Bill Irwin to you know what I mean like like some of my first jobs were really like my first casting job was for Bill Irwin doing a flea in her ear. So

Preparing For Guest Star Level

SPEAKER_01 43:57

like for Kate and then of course working with um Michael Richie, Kate's husband, uh on Williamstown. So, like to me, it was like this like really full circle moment of like all the different elements of my life in one show. Um and yeah, that's a great joy to like have to populate the world with like our world that New York.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

And you know, I'm looking at it. Well, you knocked it out of the park. You knocked it out of the park. And I would love to quickly play a flash round surprise game. It's called the casting director in me. I'm going to say a prompt and you answer with the first instinct that comes from your beautiful casting director brain, just to try and get really fast, honest advice for creatives listening. Does that sound okay? We'll see. Okay, okay. You're gonna be great. The casting director in me knows immediately when an actor walks in or onto the screen, if they're right for the role. Oh. The casting director in me wishes every actor understood that auditions are really about the role I'm going to cast you in in the future. Mmm, that was good. The casting director in me thinks actors should treat co-star auditions like they are gold nuggets.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

That was just for the first thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

I love that. No, I really love that. The casting they are. The casting director in me. They do. I love that. The casting director in me advises actors to do this if they're preparing for a procedural audition.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Oh no, the lines uh if they're walking backwards.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Oh wait, because there's a lot of technical terms sometimes. Especially in a show like Doc, like perfect trilogy.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Like is if you could say them and you're walking backwards or standing on your head, so you never have to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

I love that. I'm guessing in an initial self-tape, it's it's not a make or break if someone fumbles a word though, if they're if you get the feeling that's like no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no. Okay, okay, okay, good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

No, no, no. And I think I think that maybe that's you know another

Filling A World With New York Talent

SPEAKER_01 45:55

the, you know, the mistakes are kind of where the light gets in, that that whole like quote thing, because like I think what when someone makes a mistake on a self-tape, what it shows me is that they can recover. I need to know they can recover on a set.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

That's what I want them to know before the procedural, before they have the job, is to know the lines backwards and forwards. The audition itself is like, you know, is a different cup of tea. I want to know, I want, I want to feel confident in their ability to do that on set. Part of my confidence is how they're gonna recover from a mistake. So sometimes an actor sends me a self-tape that has a little itty bitty error in it, you know, and I know that it took all of them to send that out. Um, I'm so grateful for it because I'm like, oh, I know now what they'll

Flash Round Casting Director Truths

SPEAKER_01 46:37

do if if something goes wrong on set.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

I think it's a really, you know, an important thing to keep in mind when people are self-taping is to not stop themselves.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

You know, um on set. So that's like really important to me to see those moments. It's how I get to know somebody. It's how it was my trick in the rear of always was you know, auditions are never about the mistakes, always about the recovery.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

It's it's that's so good. I was gonna say you should write a book, but I know you might be working on one. So I'll talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

I'm giving up on that, but no, I'm not giving up on it.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

No, do it. Tucker, then at least I need like a rip-off calendar of your little sayings that I can.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

No, I wanna I wanted to ask you more about that. But I I think that's true too. With I mean, any time I've had like a Zoom or a live callback, I've started to look at, I mean, I'm not always perfect at it, but the little technical glitches as as gifts. Like what if there's a technical thing, it like kind of almost snaps you back into the present moment. So there's something cool about that. It's like those are little gifts in a way.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Yeah, yeah, completely. And they're also things that we humanly understand on our end. My computer crashes in the middle of people's zooms all the time. And I'm like, I can't believe I can't believe it with them. And I'm like, Kim, you have to read. And so she has to read. You know what I mean? So it's just like because so it's us two. We're all in that. I mean, that we are all, we are, I mean, uh honestly, in every side of this, we're all in it together. You know, we used to we used to feel seen when an actor came in the room, like not ego, but just like that connection you have. Well, the actor used to feel seen. Now we have to kind of trust that we're all still being seen.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yeah. Wow, that's phenomenal. Going back to the flash round, which I derailed. I famously I I set flash round expectations and then I derailed them. I'm like, let's go into this car now.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Okay, that's something.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

I I'm I'm curious about this because the casting director in me likes to see actors doing this on social media.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Truth. I just like who they are. Love.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

I side note, uh, you're so good on social because you come at it from a very positive aspect. And obviously, I I mean, I hope you don't get, you know, bombarded with people asking things like, you know, cast me, whatever in the DMs. But you said you look at the DMs or or comments almost as the modern day postcards that you used to get, which I think is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Yeah, I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Yeah. I love getting to know people that way. I don't get to know them the way I used to. And I don't get to have those postcards and and people don't get to update me on what's happening the same way they used to. So that's, you know, a DM. I can't clearly answer them all, but I see them all.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

That's beautiful. Thanks for seeing them. Okay. The casting director in me thinks the best way to spruce up your casting profile is.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Oh, I love that one. Cause I I kind of I was of what do I think? My picture, the picture, the a really current picture is everything. The thing tells a story. And that if you get that right, then I know what to call you in for. And we get closer to the alignment for that role that I'm supposed to cast you in. Yeah.

unknown 49:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Okay. Well, the last one I have here is the casting director in me now would tell their younger self starting out.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

It's gonna be okay. You know, yeah. I mean, like yeah, it's it's three decades. So I I would tell, I just just enjoy it, you know. It's crazy, but enjoy it. I mean, it's crazy. You know, it is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

But that's that's fun sometimes. Sometimes it's not. It's like a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. A lot I would tell younger me. That's the book.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

I appreciate that. Well, please don't give up on the book. I heard you mention on my friend's pod again that you had an agent, and I was wondering, how does that apply to your perspective on actors reaching out for representation now that you've kind of had to do that for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 50:26

It's wild. It's definitely, I get it. I mean, I this I was fortunate to to be connected

Social Media And A Strong Headshot

SPEAKER_01 50:33

with Joy. Um, that's her name.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Um and I'm cursed to joy because you bring joy. That's just like serendipitous.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

It is too, but but it is very um I think the whole process of it does really illuminate for me how the the challenge of all of our work is to stay within our voice when the economy of it starts to come in. It's it's in something like, oh, how do you sell? How do you market? How do you package that? Um, so I think that part maybe less about the agent search and more about the being able to say, yeah, I I agree and I appreciate that, but this is still this for me. You know, like that's I think a challenge for all of us. And it's it's part of the collaboration with people that are in the kind of more in that are in those positions of power and know more or assume to. Like, how do you stay true?

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Yeah, that brings up such a great point. Again, Shakespeare, to that own self be true. We usually end with a a gotten and or a given. So the best piece of advice you've either gotten or or have to give. But I wonder if to kind of center yours on that, sort of the the staying true to yourself in a business where, especially for actors, I mean, we're bombarded with the workshops we're supposed to take, the the agencies we're supposed to use to cut together, you know, a demo reel or do this or that. But and I think it's whatever works for you. But what would you say is a good way to re-center that mindset when you feel like maybe you're a little lost in the in the product, the commodity of it all?

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Hmm. You know, we're gonna we've gotta start with landscapes, so I'm gonna go into the garden with that one and and simply say, don't go digging up the seeds to see what's growing. Don't go seeds to see what's growing up.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

I got the goosebums. Did you just make did you make that up?

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Yeah, I've been saying it for a while.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

That is, I haven't

Staying True With Representation Pressure

SPEAKER_00 52:30

heard it. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

It is my because I it is like I was like, well, what do I need to hear? And that that is what that is just the reminder constantly, and don't go digging up the seeds to see what's growing. Because I was always like, it was this was probably my younger self talking to somebody once. I was like, if I was Mother Nature, I'd be digging up anything, everything to see what's happening under it. Nothing would ever grow. So it's it is there is something about that. And and from the the beautiful thing about doing this as long as I have, I've seen the trajectory of people, actors, casting directors, directors, writers, careers. So I've seen them ebb and flow. I've seen them go through really sparse times also. And then I've seen them the flourish the same way, you know, I go out and look at a at a garden and like, wow, what's happening out there? Nothing's really growing. And then suddenly you turn around and two seasons later you're like, it's abundant, it's beautiful, the flowers are blue, it's we are no different. Um so definitely the vantage point now. I really get that is not probably you know, trust what's happening. It it does, you know, it does need to be cared for, it does need to be properly watered and nurtured, and it also needs to be walked away from a little bit at times. And be careful who you let trample through it while we're in the garden. Careful who you take. Because they'll be like, whether nothing happening. Or you need to grow those now. You need to like really be mindful of that.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah, that is so beautiful.

Do Not Dig Up The Seeds

SPEAKER_00 53:53

And I I believe roots can actually grow underground taller than skyscrapers.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

And they interconnect.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Yes, they communicate with each other. So it's like, you know, an overnight success isn't an overnight success. It's like 10 years of self-taping or whatever it is. It's like it's the roots. So don't don't dig them up because you you'll hurt them if you dig them up too. Right. You'll struggle.

unknown 54:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

And sometimes you gotta go stand in a little dirt to kind of feel that.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Literally. Well, I don't feel like I've been standing in the dirt with you right now. I've so loved talking to you. I think you're brilliant, and now I just admire you as a person, and I'm grateful that we have you to look up to in this industry from whatever garden we're standing in, Julie.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

So keep killing it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Appreciate it. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Appreciate you too. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Oh, my pleasure.