How To Find Your Actor Brand (Without the Cringe): ReelArc's Steven C. Schmidt

How do I find my actor brand? Does hearing actor brand make you cringe? What if it could make you feel empowered in your career instead? 

Yes, "actor brand” can sound like a dirty phrase, but the truth is: we work in an industry built on perception and opinions, and your career benefits when you can get ahead of those. Director and Co-Founder of Reelarc Steven C. Schmidt joins Robert Peterpaul on the mic in this empowering episode to unpack actor branding as something far more human than a marketing trick. We talk about how the industry runs on bets, why a thumbnail can decide what gets watched, and how your job is to make it easier for casting, reps, and creatives to understand the value you bring.

In this interview for actors, you'll learn:

• How the truth about an actor's brand is deeper than you might think, and what it actually means
• Why “predictable traits under pressure” will keep you booking again and again
• The North Star of choosing authenticity above all else
• The three pillars of actor branding to take your career to the next level
• Tactical tips on headshots, resumes, reels, websites and more
• Why you may not need to be on social media, after all
• How an actor brand is really just for you in the end

STEVEN C. SCHMIDT is a director, DP and co-founder of Reelarc, the leading demo reel production company in the country. After entering the industry as a performer, Steve found he was better suited to help other actors discover their unique appeal and thrive. To put this passion into action, he co-founded Reelarc in 2014 alongside Guy Chackes (a guest from last season who broke down how to create your best demo reel), he’s spent his 10,000 hours working with actors both on their branding and giving head-turning performances on set. 

This is - How We Role. Discover fresh casting calls at castingnetworks.com.

Follow Host, Actor and Producer Robert Peterpaul (Amazon's Sitting in Bars with Cake, The Art of Kindness podcast) on Instagram @robpeterpaul and learn more at robertpeterpaul.com.

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Transcript

Why Actor Brand Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:31

My name is Steven Schmidt. I am six feet tall, and I am a co-founder of RealArc. I work with actors on their brand, and you are listening to How We Roll with Robert Peter Paul.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yay! One of the things I've learned while doing this podcast is that everybody's taller than me. Hilarious. When it comes to working in entertainment, there's a lot of hows, and they all boil down to how we navigate this wild industry. While how we follow our dreams is uncertain, how we roll along the way is in our hands. Welcome to How We Roll, a podcast for actors by casting networks. Hello, actor friends. It's your fellow creative Robert Peter Paul here with an episode that's all about taking control of your journey. Now, you may have seen the words actor brand in the title and cringed a bit. Trust me, I get it. We're artists, not brands. But believe it or not, brand doesn't have to be a dirty word. It can actually be a pretty empowering one. When done with care, the process of discovering your brand can be a helpful tool to hone in on your identity and rise above the noise. You may be wondering, how exactly could that be possible, Rob? Well, let's meet today's guest, who's a pro at answering this how? Steven Schmidt. Steven Schmidt is a director, DP, and co-founder of RealArc, the leading demo reel production company in the country. After entering the industry as a performer, Steven found he was better suited to help other actors discover their unique appeal and to thrive. To put this passion into action, he co-founded RealArc in 2014, alongside a friend from last season who broke down creating your best demo reel. Check it out. He's since spent his 10,000 hours working with actors both on their branding and giving head-turning performances on set. As always, please submit your questions at Rob Peterpaul and at Casting Networks on social media or at the link in our show notes so we can answer your hows on the show. Now here's how we roll with discovering your unique actor brand, featuring Steven Schmidt. Let's roll. Steven, thank you so much for joining us today on how we roll. Well, thank you for having me, Robert. Very, very happy to be here. Yeah. Before we dive into the topic that we have, let's take a little trip down memory lane, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Don't mind at all.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

What was your first paid gig in this industry?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Wow. Okay. My first paid gig. Technically, I did a massive show for a church for the year 2000. Like when it turned, you know, 2000. Okay. I did this massive

Steven’s First Paid Gigs

SPEAKER_01 3:43

thing. So we were doing like Beatles music on this in this big huge place. You know, I was singing like 98 degrees songs and things like that. I was like the nerd singing like Blue Moon, you know, it's like it was like a through the through the decades kind of situation. That was I think that was my first paid gig when I was like 18 years old, right out of high school. I'm gonna need clips that we can share on social media. After getting to New York, though, my first paid gig was the National Tour of Cabaret.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Oh, amazing. Who are you in that? Ernst, that was the bad guy. Oh, okay. That's a great track. Yeah. Wow, that's so fun. It was a lot of fun. That's amazing. Well, I guess from then to now, we're gonna be picking your brain about branding a lot today. Sure. And also, everybody listening, my friends, whip out those notebooks and pencils because we're gonna try and go step by step into uncovering an actor's brand. So, first of all, Steven, how would you define an actor brand? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

First, let me start by saying if I could get rid of the word brand, I would. Because it comes with so much baggage. You know, it has all of these connotations about being fake or false or putting on a front or all of these things that we don't like, you know? What I've come to understand it as is just human nature. I'm trying to understand you. You're trying to understand me. The signals we put out there into the world are the things that help us understand each other so we can make better

Brand As Perception And Trust

SPEAKER_01 5:08

bets on our time of whether or not it's a good idea to move forward with any kind of collaboration, if that makes sense. Yeah. So a brand to me is just the uh the ideas that spring to mind when I say Robert, Peter, Paul, you know, a lot of things spring to mind. It's just a very kind individual. Um, you know, all of all of the things you do, you're a performer and you're the nicest person and all of those things. That's your brand for me. That's what I, you know, think of you as. And if anyone were to don't do this, but if anyone were to turn off the podcast right now and then I were to ask them, okay, what's my brand? Whatever they say is correct, because they're working off of the available information that they have about me. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah. Yeah. I think I've also heard you describe it as predictable traits under pressure, which I thought was a really cool definition. Can you expand on that a bit? Because I think it's one thing which we'll break down a little bit, don't worry, everybody, to sort of figure out who you are and what makes you sort of a marketable. I know that's another dirty word to actor, but it's a whole other to then be able to do that under the pressure of being on a huge set, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Every actor's brand eventually should be excellent actor, but we don't get that overnight. Right. Yeah. It should it shouldn't be adjectives, it shouldn't be brand statements and all of this kind of stuff. It should be excellent actor. But that castle is built brick by brick over time because you're building trust with an audience. And how do you build trust with an audience is to give uh some consistency, to set expectations and follow through on those expectations, you know? So this whole industry is on bets. You're betting you can make a go of it. Casting directors are betting that you're gonna make them look good to the producers, producers are betting you're gonna be likable, agents are betting that they're gonna be able to make money, you know, basically representing you. And that makes sense. And it begins and ends with you because at the end of the day, when you sit down to Netflix and you're scrolling through, and I don't know about you, but I tend to scroll through Netflix more than I watch anything. You know, one of the worst. If I have the remote, it's gonna be at least 20 minutes of trying to pick something. Totally. So um, you're making a bet on your time based on that thumbnail. Is this gonna be worth my time? Right. So it's all about bets. So at the beginning of your career, I think it's a really good idea to figure out where you're excellent at right now. And that tends to be very close to who you are in real life because when you're under pressure, what are you gonna rely on? What types of behaviors, the sarcastic, the quips, the what little touch of madness do you have right now that you can bring to the art forum? You know?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Very Robin Williams of you to touch your madness. Yeah. Well, we're looking, yeah, exactly. I think we're looking for that touch of madness, right? Otherwise, if we go about it backwards and we like look at a piece and we look at a script and we break it down and say, How am I gonna say this line? We're sunk. We're sunk, right? Because it doesn't have life and it's pre-planned, and you get there and you it at that point casting is making decisions on who fakes it the best, right? But if casting gets an authentic self-tape, and we can talk more about what authenticity is because it's kind of like a you know gray, gray area term. If we when we think about authenticity and if they see it, if they see a real person there with a perspective, people hang on to that, you know. When we used to be in rooms watching auditions, if that walks into the room, whenever I was casting anything, when that walks into the room, we don't let it go without giving it its due, you know, a person with perspective. And I think a lot of people go about it kind of an opposite direction. It's like, okay, what does a lawyer act like? I'm gonna act like that. But there's a better call, salt kind of lawyer, and then there's a chandeland kind of, you know, type A lawyer or whatever. There's all different types of ways that your essence can be viewed through the lens of profession and relationship. And if we put those first, then we kind of cut you off at your knees to be the full human that you are within those circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah. This is such great advice because right after this, I have a self-tape where I'm a soccer fan for a commercial. Sure. And I was already starting to go down the spiral of I have to fight it sometimes. Oh, soccer fan. I don't really watch soccer. Well, I won't say that. Maybe I'll cut that out just for castic. But you know, you start to go down the rabbit hole of, well, what does a soccer player really look like? And it's true. You know, people just want to see something authentic. So it's like maybe in your head you're cheering on theater. Maybe you're in the audience and that's what you love, but it's a similar thing. So I love that we started with authenticity. And to continue your metaphor of the castle, I think the the drawbridge equals the branding, quote unquote. That can get you over the moat. That can be your way in. And then once you're in the castle, hopefully, as you said, you can act in a million different aspects and roles. We address sort of the elephant in the room here, which is that a lot of actors resist the idea of branding. And so I appreciate y'all for clicking play if you're one of them and giving us a chance here. What do you think is the biggest sort of misinterpretation of the word brand? And is that it's false? Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Is that sorry, I cut you off, but is that it's somehow false or a put on or a facade or it's fake in some way, or it's gonna make you pigeonholed to only play a certain type of role, and you came to the industry to have all different types of experiences because you're an artist. There's those two things. Is that okay, well, how do you how do you sum up Gary Oldman's brand, right? So what we do is we like to look back in time, and when we do that, we compress things, right? So Gary Oldman, great character actor, we compress. If we were to walk a mile in his shoes, he had to prove himself for these next opportunities to stretch and go in those directions. So it took time. So we can't look at like a character actor or an excellent actor's brand or whatever and sort of sum it all up, like Tom Hanks' brand. It's like, what does it matter anymore? The the brand is Tom Hanks, you know? Yeah. But he played a perfect victim in his earlier roles. We like to see him get into trouble and then get out of trouble because he carries with him his brand for me, is like pure human spirit. So we put him into peril and watch him overcome it. Something of the human spirit overcomes that for us, the audience, because he can carry that archetypal uh weight on his shoulders because of what he represents to us, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

But now that he gets into his sort of like, you know, later years in his career, the brand is Tom Hanks. It's excellent actor. It's no longer limited by anything. But he built trust and he built this cachet of trust by being in service to the industry first in the way that we love to see him. And now he can do anything he wants.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Get to that point, is what I'm saying when it comes to the ridescope, then, because if you were to ask Tom Hanks maybe early on, I'm sure he was going in for roles where it said, you know, this type. Now maybe I'll audition it, it'll say a young Tom Hanks type. You know, it's funny how it kind of changes.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Oh, type sucks until you become a type, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

There you go. Yeah. But even the working actors whose names you might not know in everyday conversation, you'll see a lot of them pop up in the same sorts of roles. Like they're always a detective, or they're always a security guard, or they're always in the same vein. And I think this conversation is helpful for that as well. So I guess when did you realize that using I know I wish there was another word for it too. Finding your brand or uncovering it as an actor could actually be an invaluable tool. Do you remember the moment you sort of had that spark in your brain?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah. I think the first seed was when I was in New York, when I moved there, I was 21 years old. I had long hair, shaven face, I wouldn't get a tattoo. I was very much that young romantic, like, I am a vessel for storytelling. You know what I mean? I was that guy. And I understand it. I think it's beautiful. It's a beautiful approach, a beautiful idealized way of looking at things. But then I had a Bernard Telsi casting director pull me aside and say, hey, we don't see the possibilities. We see what is. So while I was trying to dilute myself to be as good for as many possible roles, like I'll get a haircut for the role, you know, it's very idealized. All they see is what is, you know. So then I realized what I was doing is I was actually taking away anything that would showcase a perspective that people could hold on to later and actually speak about intelligently, right? If people can't have an intelligent conversation about you when you're not around, you don't have a clear enough brand, and it's probably not going to work out. Because people are like, okay, Robert Peter Paul, he's the guy who made me feel XYZ. If someone's like, oh, really? Oh, I I thought this, I thought that they're already confused, they're done. They're not moving forward. But if they can say, Yeah, it wasn't that great, like it was so crystal clear, you know? Yeah. Um, that's that to me is a superpower. And then the more I got into doing real arc, uh, the more I realized that actors come to us, we have to have an intelligent way to figure out what the scenes are going to be about. So the branding process that I've developed is basically out of necessity to better serve our clients. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

And not just give them stock things to perform. Oh, yeah. It's so brilliant how you develop these one-of-kind scenes for people and then shoot the scenes, you know, even writing them and working with them to I remember when we did it to really make sure it's something they don't just feel like clicks with the new quote unquote brand you came to together, but they feel like clicks with them. And you're very, very collaborative in that sense. And I want to dive a bit more into RealArks process, but even just hearing you talk right now, it's sort of like, you know, what makes me go to the supermarket and buy a certain drink? It's like because we all have the feeling that this drink is being sold because it does this. It brings you this feeling. And so if you can sort of figure that out early on, I mean, I remember having the same thought process. I'm gonna be everything to everybody. Yeah. What happens, I think, sometimes is then, okay, maybe you're you're putting in really great serviceable auditions, so you'll keep getting called back because you can do all these different things, but they'll just know that you're gonna be a good one that they can send in to have. You might not break through to the next level because you're not sort of like bringing that unique spark. And so to me, it all starts with something you touched on, which is authenticity. I think we have to be in a vulnerable place to meet with you and then really honestly to ourselves think about who we are and unlock this brand. How do you sort of get actors into that place as you start to have these conversations?

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Well, so a couple of things that I set up is um my idea for three pillars or three legs that keep a table standing in an acting career. And one of them is the training. So you go to train to figure out where your resistance is, to figure out where self-consciousness shuts down impulse, and you work through those things in a safe place. At that point, everything is discovery, everything is on the table, everything is possible. And that's beautiful, and

Three Pillars Training Marketing Work

SPEAKER_01 15:53

that's what that is. The second pillar for me is marketing, right? And marketing is this is how I am viable and useful to solve your problem in a marketplace. And that's the one that everybody likes to sort of forget or push aside or devalue. And then there's the third leg, and that's working the job. Nobody cares about Zendaya's brand when she's on set, right? They're there to tell a story. Nobody cares if you went to Rada if it's not producing the result that's necessary to tell the best story, right? Yeah. So those other things are great, but they're three specific lanes. When you're working the job, you can live in a microcosm of the production, which is a beautiful thing. Then you're there to, that's what we're all here to do, right? Is work with like-minded creatives to do something amazing and create something better than the sum of its parts. But then they like to smush the training and the marketing together and say, why can't I it all just be discovery, right? Because the marketing is a different pillar and it's an important one.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah. It's it's sort of almost even a different side of the brain.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

It's like the right brain, left brain. Exactly. But if you silo it and you give it the importance that it's d deserves, then you can spend more time on the other things. Just get the branding out of the way, have an idea of how you're useful in the marketplace, and then play in these other two uh spaces. I also talk about source. So I have one opinion, and I've been doing this for years, a long time. So it's an informed opinion. At the same time, if I don't get ownership from you on your brand, then this is gonna be another document that sits, a PDF you never open, an idea you never think about. So for me, when I'm working with someone on brand, I really rely on them and I push them to start speaking from I am statements and I've found that and all of these things that help them start to talk about themselves because if there's no ownership, it doesn't matter. I don't think there's any guru out there that can be like, this is your brand. I deem you to be this, because if you don't have ownership of it, I've had a lot of people who are branded come on set and say, I guess I'm a cult member. You know what I mean? It's kind of like a shrug moment. And they think, okay, if I just follow this idea, then that's gonna help me get cast. But without ownership, it means nothing. You know? All the work that we do, it is uh very tough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Well, I'm I'm assuming in in your position, it's tough because you sort of meet with people. I mean, you you spend a lot of time with people, but it's quickly and it's just a slice of life. And a lot of actors are very good at presenting themselves in a certain way, and that might not be who they are. So you do both parties need to be on board. And I love that I think I remember you ask questions right away, like when other people in your life meet you or see you on screen, what feelings does that bring to mind for them? What do people assume about you? What are the assumptions? Yeah. And then you sort of use that as part of the formula to break it down. Are there other questions that you would recommend folks asking themselves like this when they're thinking about what's sort of naturally compelling about them? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah. I would say where do you win your field, you know, um, when you're with your friends. I talk about relationships. Okay, what what purpose do you serve in your friend group? Are you the one that keeps everybody together? Are you the chaos agent? You know, or what are you?

SPEAKER_02 20:01

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah. With your family, if people will go there. Obviously, I'm not I'm not a therapist, you know. But at the same time, if we can get people talking about their personal relationships and things, because a lot so much is drawn from that. You know, people talk about acting as becoming someone else. I I push back against that very hard. I think you only have what's in you to bring out. It's the discovery that we love, but it was always there, right? So I like to talk about what's what was always there. You know, if if I were to ask, you know, I do different things like I say, like, Robert, you're so, and then I I just have you fill in the blank. But I yeah, great. I would write it down. You're so, you're so. I would ask you over and over and over. Everybody says funny, by the way. Funny is 90% of the time the first one that's like.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Everyone says funny. Well, because internally we're all looking at the world and we're thinking, well, God, we're so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

You know, this would be a cool carousel on Instagram or something, like the percentages of what people say. Yeah, that's a great idea. Because in the truth, even just hearing you talk, it's like we're all different colored light bulbs. And it's like we can put on the different shades, but we're still that that bulb. I love a cheesy metaphor. Anyway, it's interesting that everyone says they're funny. And then so how do you sort of like break down that facade over time?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Funny how quirky how. Passionate, how does passion represent itself in your life? How does it show itself? Is it hyper obsession? Is it a great love of XYZ or appreciation? What quirky is like another one we get all the time, right? It's like I'm so quirky. I just look at the world different from everybody else, you know? That happens constantly. So I'm like, quirky how, how does it represent itself? Are you neurotic? Are you offbeat? Are you let's get to the meat of it? How does it represent itself? You know, I just watched the drama with Zendaya. It's on my list. I heard it's great. It's great, it's great. And there's one moment, and when you see it, you'll know. But Zendaya is just reacting to something, and the camera stays on her for a little bit longer and it tells an entire story. And Zendaya for me is is because we see so much perspective and it's right in line with who Zendaya is as a human. You know, for me, Zendaya crushes it at brand because you know, she's the girl for me that's sarcastic, a little acerbic, but obviously has a very, very breakable heart. She's scared, you know, to be vulnerable with. And you can put that into a Marvel movie, and it goes the you know, from here to here, uh, this aggression, this poignancy. You take that into euphoria, we're just turning up and down the dial on different characteristics that we know her to have. You know, the eye rolling and the things and the sarcasm and the realness, the down-to-earthness. But in uh so basically, a brand is that connective tissue that can be put into any tone or genre and still feel cohesive because it comes from a place of authenticity of who the person really is.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Yeah. I think that's really brilliant too, because it helps you delineate not just who you are as a person, but sort of what you can book professionally. And where you win your field. Win your field, like you said. Because it's it's like you pick one aspect of you that people really feel overall, and that's sort of what you can book. And it does. Take a while to figure that out. And so what do you think is a great way to test this brand out in the real world? You know, do you recommend just trying out different sides with friends, maybe putting them in on a self-tape, seeing what it looks like, asking the people in your life? What's sort of a good way to sort of test the waters? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah, all of those things are great. And um, you know, we were talking about our process and the time that we have together. That's why I have a second meeting after the scenes are shot and delivered. Because we like to look at the work and say, okay, now what actually shows up in the work? Like we set you up for the best direction that we could. We shot the scenes, what's in the work? And then so I don't start doing the pitching phase or anything like that until I see the work because did it get more nuanced? Did it get more interesting,

Testing Your Type Without Faking

SPEAKER_01 24:04

different, you know? What what it where is it at now? And let's use the the most up-to-date information. So we had the projection of how we feel and how, you know, and then we put the proof down in the scenes, and then we look at those scenes to continue on to the pitching point. Um, but yeah, I think we should all be thinking about different things, different ways that were useful for stories, you know, different aspects of us that are useful for storytelling because, you know, this idea of range is a fantastic one. It's beautiful. Um, however, when people are looking for an actor to cast, they're not necessarily looking for the rangiest actor. They're looking for the perfect version of the role that they already have, you know, something in mind for. They're looking for that. They're not looking, do they have so much range? That's great, that's wonderful. And maybe that means you transition to another role, you know, or whatever, or looked at for another role. But essentially, um, they're looking for the perfect version. So, yes, I would say work with friends, learn about archetypes and understand their use in storytelling and and where you fit in those archetypes. Figure out what pisses you off. Excuse my language, I'm not sure if I could say that. That you're good. Upset you're good. Sorry. Okay. So think about things that upset you. What do you like when you're very happy? What do you like when you're very, very sad or aggressive or mean or angry, or what what are all the sides of you? Because our storytelling needs all types. You know, I had a girl, we were doing adjective work and she was like, well, manipulative, but not in real life. And I was like, okay, but you can't tell me you've never been manipulative. And this is not a character judgment. We're all trying to act in our grace and put our best foot forward. But what do you have access to for the purposes of storytelling? What modes of behavior? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Well, yeah. Because people sometimes we do things and we don't even realize it. And then as we're doing it, we're like, oh, maybe this is manipulative, but it's for a good reason. It's like we're all capable of doing really anything, like you just said, that runs the spectrum. And sure. We could just be slot into a different story, a different career, a different hair color, whatever it is. You know, you mentioned the pitch, and you do help actors take all of this once they hone in on their unique idea and sort of create a pitch that really then can sell to managers, to agents. I think one of the coolest lines, you know, we had a brief meeting together was describing me as I think we had buttered popcorn in human form or like a lovable wild card. I mean, there were these phrases that came out of the meeting that I just never would have thought of myself that were so fun. So I guess how how does this branding then show up in an actor's pitch or or material? Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

One thing that I like to say is that your brand is for you. It's for you. It's for you to know and you to keep as your North Star and to understand about yourself. So as you go and you get these sides, is it just I'm gonna say it like I say it on the day, and maybe I fall into what's a lawyer act like? Or am I gonna default to my my brand statements, the ideas that I have in my mind about where I win my field and that have been proven in the past? And do I say, okay, what of these aspects can be a part of this character so that there's cohesion across my auditions so

Turning Brand Into A Pitch

SPEAKER_01 27:10

that people start to understand me in a cohesive way, you know? So you might say your pitch to someone, someone might ask, someone might never ask, you know, someone might think pitches are ridiculous, you know. You're gonna get every uh conceivable opinion. But at the end of the day, no matter what opinions are out there, and you're like a cast, this casting director hates pitches, thinks branding is ridiculous, and all that kind of stuff, you're gonna hear it. That's fine. It's not for them. It's for you to create cohesion and to understand yourself and present yourself well. They're not a part of that. Do you know? Yeah. But I would say, and then on the flip side, some agents or managers actually send out type forms for people to fill out, and one of them is like, what's your pitch?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

You know?

SPEAKER_01 27:53

So it's great to have something ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah. And like you said too, I mean, every story starts with a pitch. That's how screenplays are sold. I mean, it all kind of starts with a pitch because a pitch really is just the essence of what you're selling. I know we're using a lot of dirty, dirty terms, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

So it's part of the art. So it's like I meet you, I understand you. Your brand and the way you express yourself are the things that bring those two things together as quickly as possible in a clear and fun, possibly evocative way. You know? Pitching or brand is flirting. It's being charming. It's trying to give someone the gift of clarity about how they can understand you. So for me, it's like, how do I be in service to the art form? How do I give the gift of clarity? It's not how do I put myself in a box. You know? It's about what aspects. And because look, they they may remember the words you say, they may not, but they'll remember how you made them feel and they'll remember that you had the self-confidence to say something when everyone else falters and says, Well, I played a kind of a serial killer, but I don't know what they were thinking. You've lost them. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's what everybody sort of defaults to is like, well, moms. Moms is the new current term that everybody sort of knows around. Oh, I guess I'm a mom. It's like I'm 32, but I guess I'm a mom. You know?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah. I see all of these things, these machines. Yeah. I know. Well, you also what you do brilliantly is you look at someone's resume, or if they're a little bit more established, they're IMDB. And I think you sort of value, okay, what was a project? Like, was it a network show and then a short film? And you sort of weigh the credits to see like, oh, you played a lot of assistance, or you've played, you know, you've booked a lot as this. And that's one factor in the equation, too, that I think everybody can look at, right? Is what roles have you booked? It's sort of the same as looking at your friend group. What friends have you booked and what would they say about you?

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Totally. Yeah. Well, that's a big question is like, okay, how do other people see you? What have they been what have you been cast in? All those types of stuff. That's a that's an that's part of it. Just like initial read, like what I see, that's a part of it, but it's not the whole story. Yeah. It's like I had a friend in theater who said, which I love this way of putting it, he says, I look big and butch, but then I open my mouth and a purse falls out, is what he said. I thought that was just so funny. It's a great log line. It's a great it's a great log line. Exactly. People are going to remember that, you know? It's like, well, I'm a nice guy, so I'll give you a bear hug, but I'm a big guy too. So if you cross me, that bear hug could kill me. It's like, I'm charmed. I, as a creative, as a person who is creating projects all the time, it's like I want to, I'm trying to use him. Like I helped him get a role with uh TJ Stein's new um new short that he put out as a uh story very close to him as a manager who recently retired. And I've been thinking about him for 10 years, this actor that that I pushed onto this because I thought he was perfect for that. That's the that's the the level of strength that a brand can have is people will think about you. And when anything comes up that's adjacent or close to that slot, you will be filled into that slot. That it makes my job easier. Yeah. I I have to I get to stop looking.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

You know, although I have to say, we're if there's a long-haired role, I don't think we're gonna call you anymore, Stephen, because I know people can't see, but you've cut the locks. But I think that's super cool. And it also, again, I think what we're hitting home here is that just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean that's what you're projecting. And I think that's why we see a lot of actors in shows, maybe villains in particular, where they're like really giving a certain energy, and then you go on their Instagram page and they're like personally just the life of the party and like very kind. Because sometimes there's that contrast too. And so it's helpful to have the outside lens and sort of know this is what I feel, this is what people see. How can we sort of find a happy entry point together? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

And that's you brought up a really great point, is like, okay, you've got people who um the Gleason, uh the last name Gleason, he played Joffrey in Game of Thrones, but just apparently the sweetest guy. He was like, I don't want to be an actor anymore, I want to be a philanthropist, right? Um but that becomes the brand story at that point. You know? That becomes the brand story, is he played this so wonderfully and yet he is such a nice guy. That becomes the story that people are are keying into. The story is always there because it's just people's perception of you. Yeah. When you start to confuse people, that's when the the mind turns off and and it and they say, Okay, that's confusing. I don't want to figure this out, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Yeah. Clarity is key. And to get some more clarity, Stephen, we're gonna play a bit of a surprise game that I'm calling branding keywords. It's usually called casting keywords for our longtime listeners. Thanks for tuning back in. Honored. It's gonna be fun. Basically, I'm gonna say a phrase, and then I would love for you to complete the sentence with your best piece of advice, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

So I think you'll get it as we go. Feel free to expand a little bit. It's a flash round, but you know, it's never quite flashy. Everybody knows. Okay, I'm ready. Okay. Here we go. So on-brand headshots look like the essence of you.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

They look like you, like no character-y stuff there. We're trying to fall in love with the

Headshots Reels Social Media Keywords

SPEAKER_01 33:11

human. So they look like they look like we're being led into the actual core of the human. And they exist in a vacuum. They exist in a vacuum. That's why I love neutrals and things for headshots, because everything needs to get out of the way. This is not the a headshot is not the place to be like, hi, here's me and my striped top, you know? Like get away from anything that could define the headshot that is not pure 100% you letting people in.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

I love that. Let yourself be the star. It's similar to auditions, right? And scenes. Don't let the prop become the star. Yeah, totally. Let it just be you and real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

So a reel is on brand when it shows the connective tissue about where you win your field across different tones and genres.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Oh, that was perfect.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

In an actor's reel, casting wants to see you nailing a specific thing for three to five seconds. And specific is perspective. I get your perspective.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

I love this. Let's go. I know. I love that. I'm having fun. Sorry, I'm like taking, I'm like noting them all down as you say. If someone can't afford to shoot footage with real arc, which is awesome, they can. They can sign up to be a co-star.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

And they can make it be a co-star. And also they can learn about themselves. They can they can do the discovery on their own. There's so many different ways. I don't know how to sum it all up. But yeah, ask questions, student films, engage with the business. Even if you know your brand and you're getting offered something that's just like outside of your brand. First off, I push back and I say, Are you sure there's nothing of you that you can put into this character? First off, because I bet you there is. But then outside of that, I say, engage with the business. Why would you not let the compounding interest of networking work in your favor with some idea? You it doesn't have to represent you moving forward, but meet those people. You don't know where your next job's gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Oh, yeah. Your net worth is your net worth. I love it. I heard that one. It's a good one. My biggest advice for actors social media presence is okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

So if it's like a personal thing, then all bets are off. Do what you love, right? But if it is something that you're trying to push forward so that people understand you to if the point is to get cast or to I don't know, it to move your career forward, then pick a few things and then post about those things. And keep it to like three, three specific things. Do like, here's me on set. I also love cooking. Here's here's some things that I love about cooking. And this is how I feel about this, maybe family or something like that. But just keep it sort of siloed and specific and you know, um, be consistent if you think social media is going to be a thing that helps you, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah. No, that's beautiful. It's sort of like the Marvel formula. It's like do the same thing over and over again, but in a different package, which I believe the top 10 social media accounts, one of them's Nike, one of them's the National Parks, which is really fun to follow. That's true. And they do what you said. The national parks, if you boil it down, it's just a really crisp photo of nature and a sassy caption. And that's constantly what they post. Yeah. So people will follow you because they might like one post, but it takes a lot to follow someone.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I know this sounds like a lot, but well, so branding branding is brand is being in service. Let's let's put that out there. Yeah. You are saying I will give you consistency because I am in service to you. Okay. Yeah. Then you get to the point where that you can be more in service to yourself. I mean, um, Ethan Hawke said um, he said, I would have loved to have done my dumb and dumber, Fairley Brothers style comedy, but my career just didn't go that way. That's a person who realizes he caught a wave as the young romantic, you know, lead whose ideas were bigger than a head could ever hold, and all this kind of stuff. And he rode that wave and he got all those roles, and now he's nominated for an Oscar playing this completely thing. You know, the thing that you think breaks brand, but his brand is now an excellent actor. It's no longer the young, leading romantic guy.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah. It's almost like we we should call it keys. Like what's your key? I don't know. What's what's gonna unlock it?

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

And part of it, they're a bit antiquated now, although they still say to have them because every casting person and professional is different. But an actor website should include that's your next phrase.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Your best headshot uh above the fold and your brand statement so that people who show up above the fold, they get it as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Yeah. I gotta edit mine. Okay. If casting only remembers one thing about you, it should be that you didn't let life take your spark of madness. Oh, I love that. I do that's one of the things I want to print out and put in my office, is that Robin Williams quote about the spark of madness.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

I love it so much. Barry Keegan, I'm saying his name wrong, but Barry Keegan is one of the most interesting actors to me because I'm just constantly floored in by the memorability of his characters that he creates because he hasn't he hasn't like had training or anything else beat the spark of madness out of him.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you for playing this little mad game with me. That was great. I loved it. I think well, it all pairs well with another sometimes polarizing word. This episode should just be called dirty words. But then actually probably get a lot of clicks if I called it that. Networking, which we get a lot of questions about at casting networks, ironically. What would you say is your top networking tip for the actors listening today?

SPEAKER_01 39:41

The people that you meet, keep up to date with what they're working on and send them love about that. People that you don't connect with, or you don't uh necessarily um understand how they think, or they don't understand how you think, they don't have to be a part of that that circle. That's okay. Yeah. So networking to me is keeping up with and showing support for the people whose artistic vision and mentality um are interesting to you. That's beautiful. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Networking That Isn’t Fake

SPEAKER_01 40:19

No, what's what are we doing here? Yeah. Yeah. What what what would what would working on a project with them look like? You know, probably miserable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah. Why do you want to chase that? Chase the you know, what do they say? Bees go to honey. Just go to the go to the honey.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

And chase chase, sure, but also just like spread positive vibes to these people. Like let them know, like, hey, I appreciate what you're doing in the art. And guess what? They're like, oh, that was cool. What do I have for this person? How can we work together? That's all that networking has to be. It doesn't have to be fake. It doesn't have to be anything but that in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah. Just aim to make friends. Book friends, not the job necessarily. And I think that gets you. And maybe that seems naive.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Maybe maybe there are people out there being like, okay, that's an idealistic kind of way to look at it. But but maybe a wiser one in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Aaron Powell Yeah, I agree with you. And again, it's so subjective. So feel the vibe. I think if anything, us actors are good at feeling a vibe when we walk into a room and you'll understand somebody pretty quick. But a better way to understand them is through their brand and to get back to that. Sure. It does evolve over time. And I wonder how do you know, I guess, when it's time to shift? And have you sort of had actors come back to you who maybe had some success booking a certain type and just say, Hey, I think I want to switch things up. I'm feeling this now. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

I mean, the main factor there is aging, right? Um, you know, if you look at Aubrey Plaza, she hit hard parks interact. She was a comedian. She lived in that world with like Jonah Hill and all those guys.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

And she had this deadpan quality. Uh again, typing sucks until you become a type. So many young women come to me and say, I'm an Aubrey Plaza type. I'm like, okay, well, that's what type are you? Let's do that. Let's figure out what that is. And um, so she hit super hard on that. And now as she's going into another phase in her life, she is adapting, but it still feels like the connective tissue is there. You know? Emily, the uh criminal, it still feels like her. Um it doesn't feel like she threw out the playbook. It looks, it looks like we're watching the natural evolution of a person

Evolving Your Brand Over Time

SPEAKER_01 42:20

um step into new things and it's exciting. Other people take such hard left turns. I'm not gonna name any actors, obviously, and more power to them. Okay, have the career that you want, but the the you might just leave the audience cold about what to expect from a project from you, you know? So, so yeah, so these will change, these will grow, these will adapt. I do think there are, you know, if you believe in this kind of archetypal theory, um, that what if you if an archetype is in you, like the princess never becomes the queen. They're the princess no matter what age they are. So I do think there are things that carry on through a person's life. Um, but then the lenses change, the professions, the relationships change and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, Aubrey Plaza is stepping into this elder states person of the art form. She's directing, she's doing prestige dramas like White Lotus and all this kind of stuff. So, and and you know, she was on SNL with blonde hair. She's like, Come on, guys, follow me on this new vibe that I'm putting out there. And people did, and people appreciate her and still still like her. It's kind of surfing on this amorphous idea of public opinion, you know? Yeah. Um, but always always striving to keep authenticity kind of at the forefront and not to, you know, I don't think we're gonna see like an Aubrey Plaza thing where all of a sudden she's like, this is how a Shonda Land lawyer acts. You know what I mean? You know, yeah. Well, Ditto, Ditto like um Violet Davis, Violet Davis is a really great way to look at this, you know. People might say, okay, Ryan Reynolds, they might, you know, they might be like, okay, he just plays one character or whatever. First off, he does the two things and he does them better than everybody else, so he gets all those roles and he's a billionaire. So what do you want at the end of the day? But then also, Viola Davis, she's fierce, commanding, powerful in everything she does. It doesn't matter if she's the president in that Netflix movie or if she's a person that's not in a power position, like that woman with the sun in doubt, for instance, right? She brings those characteristics, she's paid into that cachet so that when a role like The Woman King comes along, who else but Viola Davis, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Oh yeah. And I think she she produced that herself too. And like she was able to get the backing because everyone, like you said, she'd built up that. It just makes sense to us. Right. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

And some actors there's a couple of actors right now that are making project after project after project, and they're already doing their Oscar Bait movie, and they just basically kind of really hit. And it's like, um and then it flops, and it's like, well, we're just not ready. You know, uh, we don't know what the story is. We don't know how to follow along. We didn't have we don't know what the expectation is and what to, you know, all that kind of stuff. Harrison Ford's another great example of this. He was this rogue character this year. Oh, beautiful, right? The sag awards, yeah. Or the actor awards, sorry. You know, Indiana Jones, Han Solo, these roguish characters, you know. Um and then then what is he doing now? Kind of like gruff mentors. Yeah. But that's what the roguish characters turn into in real life. We feel like there's a connective tissue of, oh yeah, this is a rogue in his Twilight Years. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, you said Princess, which was right in line with what I was thinking, even like in Ann Hathaway, it's like Princess Diaries, and now Devil Wars Prada 2 is coming out, and she's a bit more powerful in that movie, but she's in the same position. And it's sort of like, I think, you know, reboots and spin-offs and all this, it's sort of not a bottomless pit. I mean, there is a bottom. I don't know how long we can survive on just these types of movies, but you know, it's what people want to see. And at the end of the day, we are entertainers. And so going back to what you do that entertains all all three of them, Meryl Streep, Emily Blunt, and Ann Hathaway, they still fit those roles all these years later, which is interesting. It feels like an interesting celebration almost of like who they each are as performers and characters. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

And how lucky to be able to express that across all those years, you know? That's a privilege, such a person.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

And it's a privilege to be alive to see it come back again. I mean, it's so fun. So if there's one person listening today, hi friend, who maybe is feeling a little overwhelmed to take the step toward, I guess, branding themselves or whatever we want to call it, what would you say is one simple step they can take today?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

You are enough. Who you are is enough. Every person is a character, a main character in a movie that is yet to be made. And don't believe your BS.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Don't deny yourself the breakthrough by staying away from breakdown. That's what I would say. In breakdowns, multiple. My whole career has been a long line of breakdowns that

One Step Today Plus Final Advice

SPEAKER_01 47:04

have led me to hopefully a higher understanding. So don't deny yourself those things.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah. It's funny because breakdowns are how we get cast when we read a breakdown and then we might like breakdown.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

That's nice. That's great. To bring it back there.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

To bring it back on brand to casting networks. Yeah, to bring it back to branding. No, but this has been so helpful. And I think this will be a nice just listening to this, by the way, and choosing to listen to this is a great first step. And I absolutely thank you for being here with us. I would love, Stephen, as we've set sail on the SS, your initials, branding boat today or ship. I would love if you could just end our time together by sharing a gotten andor a given. So the best piece of advice you've gotten in this industry, or, and if you want to do both, have to give. Wow. Sometimes they're the same. I know. They're they're big ones, so I've condensed it a bit for people this season. Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

I don't know if it's the best, but it's the most recent. That's great. Someone said on set yesterday, new every time, every time. And I thought that's good. If you try to recreate what you just did, you stay stuck in the past. And that's why we call them takes. This is my take on it now. This is my take on it now. This is my take on it now. Stay alive. Stay alive. Retain your spark of madness. I guess that's my best. That's we keep going back to this idea. But that is by far and away my biggest piece of advice to an actor is that madness, your weird, your bizarre perspective, that is your superpower. If you don't retain that, if you don't believe in that or push that forward, you remain in the great sea of actors who are not crazy. I don't know. Sorry, I didn't know how to land. I don't know how to stick the landing there. Stay in a lot. Stay in a lot.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

That's a beautiful message and delineation, too, because again, all these actors, even that we've named today, are singular, or maybe they're the one of their generation, or maybe they're just have a slightly different quirk. And that's because they were bold enough to trust themselves and be themselves, which we were trying to do today in in our chat here. So it reminds me of to butcher Sondheim, I guess. Let it come from you, then it will be new. The sun in the park with George lyrics that I'm blanking on. It's like, yeah, you know, just try and let it come from you. And that's what you all do so wonderfully. And I thank you for this service. I think it's such an amazing thing for actors to have, especially just starting out. The sooner you can try and think about these things. I think about friends that were very much against social media, which I was, hey, I did not ever want to post anything performance-wise or anything like that on my Instagram. It's just become a part of the business. And because it's new doesn't mean that it's scary. And just bring yourself to whatever forum. So I just want to thank you for what you do and for being here today. I think it's very helpful. And I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Thank you so much. Can I can I say something about the social media as well?

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Oh, please do.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Michael B. Jordan. Michael B. Jordan stays away from social media. Oh, yeah. So if you don't have social media, social media is a tool. You either want to use it or you don't. But if you don't use it, that becomes part of the brand story as well. Everything about you becomes part of the brand story. So he used the non-social media thing as part of his brand story. So all things are on the table here. So it's a tool to use if if you can or want to. But it it doesn't have to rule your life.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Just keep it in perspective. I love that. You give agency to people. And also once you hit a big friend, you can delete the Instagram if you want to. We reserve the right to change our minds. Or you can sign up if you're not on it. Do what brings you joy, I think, at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

This conversation brought me joy, Steven. So thank you so much for being here. We appreciate you. Go to the show notes to check out RealArc and more of what Steven does and how he can help you find you. Really? I love it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Robert. I really appreciate it.