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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
Episode 6: Inside the World of Award-Winning YA and Children's Literature with Sarah Glenn Marsh
Ever wondered how a ghost story can turn rejections into a celebrated book launch? Join us on Craft Chat Chronicles as we sit down with award-winning YA and children's picture book author, Sarah Glenn Marsh. Hear about Sarah's inspiring journey from a book-loving teenager encouraged by a high school teacher to an accomplished author with Penguin's support. She shares how a suggestion from her partner led to the creation of her successful ghost story, "The Girls Are Never Gone," and provides invaluable insights into the power of perseverance and connecting with young readers.
Have you ever thought about what goes on behind the scenes of traditional book publishing? Sarah takes us inside the collaborative process, sharing heartwarming moments like Penguin's surprise champagne brunch for her book "Reign of the Fallen." We also get an inside look at her latest middle-grade project, "How to Spot a Fairy: A Field Guide to Sprites, Spriggans, and More," inspired by Irish folklore. From spooky illustrations to blending mythology with art, Sarah's world-building tips and advice on creating a compelling magic system will leave you inspired.
Creating memorable villains, crafting captivating first pages, and developing inclusive middle-grade characters—Sarah covers it all. She delves into her research methods and the importance of sensitivity reading for accurate representation. Learn from her experiences on how to avoid the common pitfalls in storytelling and what current trends are shaping children's and YA literature today. Plus, get a sneak peek into her transition to adult fiction and her new spicy fantasy romance, "We Could Be Antiheroes," all while celebrating the supportive relationship with her agent. Don't miss this episode packed with practical advice, heartwarming stories, and insider tips from one of the most creative minds in the industry!
Keywords:
podcast, Bestselling Author Tips, Picture books, Young Adult Fiction, Crafting Bestsellers, Publishing Industry Insights, Writing Strategies, Author Success Stories, Writing Career, Writing Craft, Narrative Development, Book Marketing Strategies, Creative Writing Techniques, NY Times Bestselling Process, Author Interviews, Book Promotion, Literary Agents, Real Life Experiences, Publishing, Writing Tips, Award Winning Author, Sarah Glenn Marsh
Commercial before HG release.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmyallcom. That's jdmyallcom.
J. D. Myall:On episode six of Craft Chat Chronicles, we have YA author and children's picture book author, sSarah Glenn Marsh. All right, everybody, welcome to tonight's Craft Chat. Tonight we have the honor of hosting Sarah Glenn Marsh. She's an award-winning author known for her best-selling and enthralling novels like and beloved children's picture books like Nita's Big World.
J. D. Myall:Tonight, Sarah will offer valuable advice on creating picture books, talk about writing craft and give you some tips for making fabulous fantasies. Welcome again, Sarah, Thank you. Can we start with you telling everybody a little bit about your publishing journey?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Absolutely. Yeah. So I you know, honestly, growing up I loved reading and writing. I was the kid who checked out multiple. I mean I would check out a stack of books from the library every week. I was that kid. I was a voracious reader. Reading was what got me in trouble growing up the most. I would get in trouble at home with my grandparents or my parents for reading at the table because it was what I preferred doing, and I would get in trouble in school for reading under my desk. But the thing is I was getting straight A's but they were still mad. That's fine, whatever. Um, so I was. I was that kid who, like always, literally had my my head in a book. Um, that kid who, like always, literally had my head in a book.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:But nobody ever really talked to me about writing as a career, sort of the reality of that, how achievable it was. I always considered authors to be these like very mysterious, unapproachable, distant figures, because how can you be one, I don't know. I mean this was a little pre I mean not too pre-internet, but it was just a mysterious thing to me and I never had the opportunity to like listen to a published author and sort of learn from them about what that career looked like. I took creative writing in high school, absolutely loved it, and I had a teacher who really encouraged me my creative writing teacher and we're actually still in touch. She was a wonderful mentor and the first person to kind of make me think that there was something there with my writing that might be a little different or a little more, that I had to look at something a little special. So I got.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I went to school, I went to University of Mary Washington and I got my master's in elementary education. That was my background. I wasn't thinking about being a writer, but while I was in that program, my favorite professor actually she ran a literacy specialization that I took part in, and so this was like an extra piece to your degree. It was like what you focused in on. And of course, I picked literacy and she really inspired me a love of children's picture books, and she was an incredible professor. She would actually read children's picture books in our classes to like foster a genuine appreciation, and she brought in authors and so for the first time I got to sort of connect and see some of these people face to face. And then on the other side of it. I was going into classrooms right working on my degree in teaching, and I got to spend a lot of time, especially helping reluctant readers, which was my favorite thing. I remember reading with this little boy who was having a lot of difficulties with having stable figures at home and he looked forward to reading with me every day after school before he got called to walk home. And you know, getting to connect with kids through stories was a really special thing for me, that kind of always stuck. Special thing for me, that kind of always stuck.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So then I graduated, I was looking for a teaching job and my partner said to me you should really write a book. And I was like what do you mean? Write a book? He was like, well, pause the job search, write a book. And I was like that doesn't sound like a great idea. Thank you, I wouldn't. I wouldn't know what to do. Like, what do you mean write a book? And he it was the strangest thing for him to say, because he's not an avid reader himself, so he hadn't really like read any of my writing. And he was like, well, but you have so many books and you read so many books and I know you'll love to write and he was like try it.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Um, so while I had an attempt job, I used their old computer and wrote my first novel. It was terrible, but I did send it to agents and when I got their rejections I was so mad and when I get mad I get very motivated. I find anger is a fantastic motivator. So I was like you know what I'm going to show all of them? I'm going to write something that's so commercial that they can't tell me no. So I went back and I wrote a second book. I wrote a ghost story and it had issues, but I actually the funny thing is that ghost story it was what got me my first agent got me four offers of representation. This was all within about a I'd say like a six month period back in like 2014. And I signed with my agent that book. We did not seek out publication for it right away, but much later down the line it became one of my books with Penguin the girls are never gone.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I went back into that old manuscript, harvested the bones of it and the things that I loved and, you know, transformed it into something else, and so that story actually lives on. All the characters are the same, same names, same setting. But that was really how I got started. It was that second book and I had entered that book in a contest. While I was writing it, I was lucky enough to receive feedback from a published author, susan Dennard and again, leaning on people who have that job and who have that experience was absolutely vital to me understanding how to do it, because what she said these are the conventions we use in publishing and this is the way that we do this. It all clicked for me and I said, oh well, actually that's not true. I read her feedback and I deleted my book off my laptop and I put my laptop under the bed and I said I was never writing again. This lasted about two weeks. I was in the shower and it hit me. So about two weeks later I'm in the shower and it hit me like a ton of bricks how everything she said was true and how to fix the whole novel based on her amazing feedback.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So I went in, I dug in and after revising it, I sought out agents and I got agented pretty much right away. That is not usual. I feel I was very fortunate and I learned a lot. I'm now with my third agent. There's a lot of turnover in publishing, but I mean, really I've learned with every agent. I'm very happy I'm at Jill Grinberg now and I'm very happy I'm at Jill Grinberg now and I'm very happy there and I'm working across children's, middle grade, young adult and also adult. I also, in addition to my own work, I also do IP work, intellectual property, meaning I've written for Crayola, I've written for the Smithsonian, I've written for Star Wars and I am currently writing for something, a popular franchise, but it's not yet announced, so I should probably stop myself. That is the gist of my publishing journey. So far, I have over 20 titles published to my backlist. I work primarily with Penguin, but with other publishers as well, and I have several books in various stages of contracts and publication right now. So I love that.
J. D. Myall:What do you think you did right that helped you break into the publishing industry?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:You know, the number one thing I think, aside from from just being a very avid reader, I think it was my ability to connect with others and to take feedback, Because one thing that I think may not be as apparent from the outside with publishing is just how collaborative it is every step of the way. So let's say, you've written this book that you absolutely love. You're going to have to change it. You're going to change the whole thing with your agent. And then you're like, oh gosh, that was so much work, that was so harrowing. I've changed my whole novel with my agent. It's not what I started with. I feel some kind of way about that. Well, you can't feel too much about it because you're going to have to change it with your editor probably three or four times.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:And then the amount of people who work on a book.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I've seen a figure quoted somewhere.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I don't want to say this as absolute point of fact because I don't have the quote in front of me, but it's something like 70 people from sales, marketing, editing and all the different departments will touch a traditionally published book before it's actually on the shelves. So there's this whole team of professionals looking over your work. You've really got to be open to feedback and collaboration and to look at it as a collaborative effort. And then, at the same time, I say that and I think that is what I did right. And yet the other piece is you have to be able to advocate for yourself when the time is right. That is something else that I have really learned along the way the power of advocating for yourself, because you have to know when the feedback is altering your story too much. You have to know when to stand up for yourself when something isn't sitting right in your gut, and how to speak up in a way that gets you listened to and not shut down in a way that gets you listened to and not shut down.
J. D. Myall:I love that. What was the?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Surprising? Well, that's a great question. I would say something that was really fun or it was a really cute surprise. I went up.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So when my book Reign of the Fallen was about to be published, I went up to New York to meet with my editor and we had a really nice conversation. She and I were good friends. She's since moved on from the industry and I miss her a ton. She's a great person. We were very good friends. I came up, we had a nice time. She let me pick out books from the shelves of yet to be published titles at Penguin, which was really fun. But then she was like we're going to go downstairs for a minute and we went.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:We rode the elevator down to the Penguin building several floors and there was a room and it was all set up and they had decorated it to match with the Reign of the Fallen book cover and we had a surprise champagne brunch and everyone from Penguin came down and the head of my imprint gave a big toast and you know it was. It was very surprising and very, very sweet and just such a surreal moment of having put in the work and seeing it touch all these different people. That was incredibly special, and likewise the turnout for the Reign of the Fallen launch. I had a reader flying from Mexico. I would not fly from Mexico to meet myself, let me tell you what and so it was very surprising and very, very surreal, that whole experience. And you know, my takeaway from that actually from that surprising, wonderful experience is I don't actually need I don't need champagne brunch and I don't need frills and I don't need to be anyone's darling when it comes to my work, but what I do need is an enthusiastic responsive supportive publisher.
J. D. Myall:what's the story behind the story, Can you
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Current? I have so many different current things going on on, let me see. So right now this one's been announced. I just did a book called how to Spot a Fairy a Field Guide to Sprites, spriggans and More, and so how to Spot a Fairy is a compendium of fairy folklore. This was an incredibly fun project. This was actually this started as IP, intellectual property, so a publisher had an idea to do a folklore series and they approached me and asked if I would be interested.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:My own background I am Irish. My father's family is from a town called Kersivine, so Kersivine is in South Kerry. It's a town of about a thousand people, but I love it. I think it's a really special place. It's out near the skellig islands where they filmed, uh, star wars, so folks may know that, and um, that's where I'm from and there is a a very rich culture, rich history that I grew up with, surrounding fairies. Um, there are folks over there, especially out in the countryside and especially in rural places like carrie, who still believe in fairies and and I mean that belief is like very much alive and present, uh, to where you can almost feel like you are somewhere where magic exists or like that is possible and people fear and respect it. Um, so when I got asked to do a compendium of fairy folklore um, it's for a middle grade audience I felt like I was absolutely the right person to do a compendium of fairy folklore.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:It's for a middle grade audience. I felt like I was absolutely the right person to do it. You know, kids don't like cutesy fairies and I think that because of my Irish background I brought to it a healthy respect and fear of how horrible these things can actually be that I think kids will find fascinating but tempered with like, not too scary and awful, if that makes sense. I'm a mom of a two year old little girl and so I do also have like that, that mom sensibility of like walking the line of like what is too much.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So that book I got to delve into like fairy legends from around the world, um, they, the term fairy is primarily like a very western european, very localized, like the uk, ireland and wales concept, but um, I took it and gave it a more like global view, which was really fun to make it accessible for kids around the world. Um, and I got to help choose the illustrator. Her name is Lilla, she's from Eastern Europe and her illustrations are like they're very spooky. They've got that proper sense of fairy or like you are have a healthy fear of them, and the whole book is. It's like an art book, so it's filled with mythology but also art. There are like pull out maps and stuff and I this thing is brilliant. I just saw a final, like a final look through, um, I think like two weeks ago, and okayed it to go to the printer. So, uh, that'll be out this fall and I'm really excited about it.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Do you usually get to pick your own, illustrator? gtyou know what. So that really depends on the quality of a couple of things, like it depends on your agent. My agent always tries to advocate for me to have as much rights as possible, and that includes illustration rights, insofar as having input, how it's typically worked. So there have been a few deals picture book deals I've had, or things that involve art where they pick someone for me and they're just like this is who's illustrating it, and I'm like, oh, that's news to me, okay. Other times, however, especially with my agent advocating, I'll get to look at portfolios for, say, like their top three choices and say I want you to approach this person, like this feels right to me, and then this is my second choice In the case of how to Spot a Fairy. That was how that was done.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Lola was my first pick and I was like I really really need you guys to get her for this project and it's not announced yet, but probably there are going to be. It's probably a series, there are probably going to be more of these books and more art and it's probably a whole concept. So, um, I'm really looking forward to seeing more of what she does. I've actually maybe seen some sketches for a second, something that's going to follow, so what are the essential elements of a good picture book?
J. D. Myall:What are the essential elements of a good picture ?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:cThat is That a great question. So picture books I always tell people they're actually harder to write than novels, which sounds weird, and I know, of course novels take longer, but picture books, oh my gosh. Nowadays kids attention spans are really short and parents are tired at night when they're reading to their kids. So, like the ideal length of a picture book, you're looking at 500 to 700 words. That is not a lot of space. That is very small. That is a few pages at most, and in those 500 words you have to have an entire character arc. You have to introduce your main character. They have to have a problem. There's a story problem, they have to try to resolve it. You have to introduce your main character. They have to have a problem. There's a story problem, they have to try to resolve it. And then you have your resolution and your denouement and wrap up. You have 500 words. That is very, very, very difficult, and so what ends up happening is every single word has to carry so much weight.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I myself am a picture book writer, I am not a picture book illustrator, and so for me, I'd say one of the elements of a good picture book text is actually keeping that in mind when I write a picture book, I am writing half the story and so I think that's a really good element of the text is it's telling half of the story, because I'm literally letting the illustrator carry the other half. I need to make that text open enough to where they are also telling the story and that their illustrations are adding detail and depth to what is happening is a very difficult thing. Not only to compress a whole story into 500 words and make it satisfying, but also to know that somebody else is going to be telling the story alongside you and to leave room for them to have creative freedom also. That is an art. I think picture books are very, very challenging. You know things like when we talk about elements of a great picture book.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:It used to be that rhyme was very popular. I've seen that like come and go time and again. I wouldn't necessarily say and that a great picture book has to rhyme. But I would say that every word has to carry weight and that a good picture book text allows for the illustrations to carry the story.
J. D. Myall:I love that. Since you brought up fairies earlier, let's get into some magic system questions. What makes a good magic system, and can you explain for people who haven't read Reign of the Fallen what the magic system is like in that series?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:start with the first part of that. So what makes like a solid magic system For myself? As someone who grew up reading a lot of fantasy and you know, as a kid I actually read a lot of adult fantasy that's what I was drawn to. I have time and again been immersed into very complex worlds where the magic system is either never clear to me or, you know, it's vast, it's overwhelming and it's too vague.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I would say one element of a great magic system is specificity. I would encourage an author who is working with a magic system to be as specific as possible, and in particular, when we talk about magic, magic has a cost, and I think that this is a very important concept when we're considering a magic system. That magic has a price, and I think that it's really important and I did this in reign of the fallen to like consider the the physical or emotional toll that using something that is this force beyond us takes on us, because magic to perform magic, magic is taking something from you, and so I think that a good magic system considers the consequences of using that magic. Again, I also think it is specific, and I think that one way to do that is to pick a central theme or topic that is very relevant to your story and to your characters and to then shape your magic system around that. So, in Reign of the Fallen, the magic system I wanted to, again keeping in mind the body and that it's human beings who are wielding the magic.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Their magic system is based on their eye color, but it isn't assigning arbitrary powers to an eye color. What it is is that each different eye color is born innately. All people that have that eye color are born with the ability to see something that the other eye colors don't see. So, for instance, in Reign of the Fallen, people with blue eyes see doorways into the land of the dead, into the spirit world. People with other eye colors cannot see that. Thus they cannot access this form of magic. And so that is. I went through the usual eye colors in the first book.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:In the second book I get into the questions that teens often have for me when I go to school events. The first question they always ask me at high school is what about people with like it's called like, heterochromia, where they have two different iris colors? And I'm always like read book two, because you will meet people with some different abilities and you'll see that the magic actually stays kind of consistent, what they can do with knowing their eye colors. So I do address sort of those what ifs in the second book, which is you know. So I think a good magic system really thinks through consequences and thinks through how it impacts the world. In Reign of the Fallen one of the central themes is death and so a lot of the the overarching world building is shaped around death and different different cultures and religions, practices like in our world, surrounding death. I pulled from many different goals, yeah.
J. D. Myall:I love that. How do you handle exposition and fantasy without overwhelming readers?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Oh my goodness, that is a great question and how I like to open.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:When I hear that question, how I like to open, it is with a piece of advice that I was given when I was starting out. That has always stayed with me and, to correctly attribute it, this was advice from editor Cheryl A Klein, formerly at Scholastic. I don't know where she is now, but here's what this editor and it's brilliant. She said that when you look at a scene on the whole and I think this is especially relevant for fantasy when you look at a scene on the whole and I think this is especially relevant for fantasy when you look at a scene, every scene should be an equal mix of action, dialogue and description. So if I were to look at a scene and I've hit you with, like, several paragraphs of exposition in a row, some of that's going to have to get cut and come out.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:If you're bored, if you're info dumping, your reader is bored, they're bored too. It takes work to refine that balance. But action, dialogue and description If you can try to make sure that you are seamlessly weaving those three elements through, you won't be having long paragraphs of exposition. Those should definitely be broken up by those other elements.
J. D. Myall:What advice do you have to writers on developing their own fantasy worlds and making them unique?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Yeah, that's a great question. So I've done Reign of the Fallen. I developed my own. That's a second world fantasy, so that's where I literally built my own world from scratch. Um, there are a lot of great resources online you can access that will ask you questions that you can sort of think through. That that will help set your world apart once you can answer them. Um, again, I think that sort of picking a theme that is central to the plot, to your narrative, and shaping the world around that can be wonderfully distinct.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So, for Rain, it was death, and I researched all these different death rituals and I was like well, what would this look like in practice? So dead people right, they're walking around. What does that look like? Well, I thought to myself, death, it probably smells. And so the dead people they wear herbs on their person, they wear little satchels of herbs and perfumes to try to smell better, because death is decay.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Creating a believable world is really in the details, is what I'm saying. It's about thinking through the most minute thing. And then, how does that affect the whole culture? How does that shape these people Like, how do the magic systems or the things that you're trying to express through this world. How do those affect people every day?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:It's really in the details, and so I like to keep a binder with my world building details. That was especially helpful with Reign of the Fallen because there was a sequel. They bought two books at once and by the time I went to go write that sequel I had forgotten so many things. You forget. You're living life, life's hard, you forget things. And so I sat down to write the sequel and I said to myself man, some fan is going to yell at me because I'm going to get somebody's eye color wrong. I was going to throw off the whole book.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So I kept a binder with all of those world building details and referred back to it frequently as I wrote. I think that is a really helpful thing to have all your stuff gathered in one place. But you know, you can also write something set in the real world and make it your own. I also write historical fantasy and you know, for that I wrote a book that has sea monsters. I've written books that have fairies. I basically did a lot of research and created my own fairy lore. I created my own sea monster lore based off existing monsters from different cultures. So lots of research and lots of detail.
J. D. Myall:Okay, that leads me to one of our questions in the chat. Sure Seth wanted to know what is your research process like and do you have any favorite resources?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Oh, that's a great question. So let me start with research process and I'll circle back to resources. Remind me. So it is really different for every single book. It depends what I need to research.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So I wrote a book called Fear the Drowning Deep. That book was set on the Isle of man. Well, I've never been to the Isle of man. I am Irish. I've been close to it, haven't been there. It's really hard to get a boat over.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So what did I do? I bought books from a local bookstore on the Isle of man and had them shipped here and waited three weeks for them to arrive. I educated myself on their culture and their beliefs. I read about their language. When I was like trying to develop character names, I actually pulled census data from the time period I was writing in and cobbled together names. That way, since I hadn't been there, I went on YouTube and I would watch.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:There is a famous motorcycle race that takes place on the Isle of man and I would watch those motorcycle races, not for the bikes but to look at the background scenery, because they were driving the whole island and thus I was getting to look at the beaches and look at the terrain and be able to better describe it. Also, the reporters who report that event are Manx and I was able to listen to their accents so that I could better write it. Yeah, it's really unique to every book and what it what it means. I wrote a book that's a ghost story. It involves a girl going to a this old crumbling estate and she volunteers to help turn it into a museum. My family that is a historical museum and for that one I went out to my family's house and I talked to all the volunteers. So it really depends on the situation, on what the book needs.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Insofar as writing resources, things that I would point you to that I think cover a lot. If you are querying agents, you are going to want to look at Query Tracker. If you are querying agents, you are going to want to look at Query Tracker. I think the forums at Agent Query Connect are fantastic. I critiqued a lot of queries there and had my own query letters to agents critiqued there. That was very helpful. A good general writing resource and forum would be Absolute Write. I highly recommend their forums as well.
J. D. Myall:So Carl wants to know. Carl says in a picture book project, who starts first, the writer or the illustrator?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:And do you ever do it at the same time? Is it in parallel? So in my own experience and based on my like larger understanding, it is never parallel parallel. So what happens is I write the text first and typically I have that text edited with the editor and completely finalized before they hire an illustrator. Now, what I and during that process, when? So then they come in, they get hired and then they're illustrating. Typically I have no contact with them. Occasionally I will. I have type 1 diabetes, sometimes called juvenile diabetes, and I wrote a book about that for children who are newly diagnosed and living with the disease, and for that the illustrator consulted with me about what the medical devices are supposed to look like. Illustrator consulted with me about what the medical devices are supposed to look like. So there are times where it's necessary, but typically typically no, I have no involvement with the illustrator and typically my end is done first. So there is a finalized text from which they are working and I will sometimes leave like relevant notes underneath lines of text if it's really important.
J. D. Myall:So Okay, seth had one more question about your, your notebook that you mentioned earlier. Seth wanted to know if you use templates or if you design the notebook elements yourself.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:That's a great question too. I actually designed the elements myself. I didn't use any kind of templates, it was, yeah, all honestly, all pulled from my brain, and I am one of those type A people who's very organized and so, like I kept like a name bank and I even printed that out and I just I had all these reference materials that I organized myself, yeah.
J. D. Myall:That's cool. Carl wants to know can you give some markers that define middle grade in terms of appropriate content these days? And these days it feels like they're pushing some of the old limits, and I think there was a question about is it good for marketing too?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:and yeah, okay. So, uh, middle grade elements, uh, what defines like a good? Uh, when we think about middle grade, you know, for myself, when I think of middle grade, I still think of, say, the first Harry Potter book. That is very classically middle grade. Um, when I think of middle grade, I have noticed that middle grade is starting to include some elements like romance, and I'm of I'm of mixed opinion about it because, like for myself, when I was the age of a middle grade reader, I wasn't interested in romance. I was, like for myself, when I was the age of a middle grade reader, I wasn't interested in romance. I was still reading the Saddle Club. I didn't want to talk about boys or girls, I just wanted to ride my horse and like sing songs and watch TV and hang out with my friends. So, you know, I typically tend to think of the middle grade sensibility as having very little to no romance or, you know, crushes would be appropriate. I think, at middle grade age. The middle grade audience, you know we say middle grade and I think a lot of us think middle school. Well, children will typically read older. So, like, the kids who are reading middle grade are like 10 years old because they're reading about 13 year olds and they're like, oh, this is edgy and cool, but so you've got to keep in mind the actual age of those readers, for who that's targeted to are about 10 years old.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:When I wrote my first middle grade, it was actually a rewrite of an older fantasy project that I had done, meaning like for older readers, and when I rewrote it I had these two girls. They were sisters. They were alone in the woods and someone was watching them and my agent goes no, she was like nope, take that out. She was like that is absolutely sinister. They don't have a parent or guardian. They're in the woods by themselves and there's a creepy person watching them. No, this is not safe. And she was like this is not an appropriate scenario for middle grade. So even I have had to learn to tone down my voice and sensibilities when it comes to middle grade. Yeah, it's a. It's a fine balance. What I'm saying there is. It's definitely tough.
J. D. Myall:Another comment from a question from the chat. Somebody wants to know have you ever had an experience where you were not quite satisfied with the illustrator, and how did you handle it?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:quite satisfied with the illustrator. And how did you handle it? Oh, good question. Um, let me like I'm turning my head because I'm looking over at my picture books. Um, I don't want to like name any names specific. Um, I have one where, like, the art is not a style that I would have chosen, but the illustrator is very celebrated. So, honestly, in that case, because they chose and it wasn't anything to do with me, I just, you know, you kind of have to be classy and say thank you If there were an actual problem.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So, for instance, like working on how to spot a fairy, I actually asked for the fairies to be inclusive, so I gave a lot of hands on guidance. There there's an elf in a wheelchair. I wanted the fairies to reflect like real children. So some of them have mobility aids, some of them have like part of a mechanical wing, things like this, so that real children could see themselves. Some of them have glasses. They have a range of different skin tones. They're pretty cool. But Lilla tried to include a fairy with an insulin pump and she misunderstood what that was and I think, I think I went back and forth with her three times. I went through my editor. I just keep everyone CC'd because we have clear communication and yeah, so like if there's an important issue I'll push back politely in an email. I just keep good communication. I tag my agent and then that way my agent is also like overseeing whatever issue is going on and keeping an eye on it.
J. D. Myall:Yeah, I love that. A lot of people don't know that you have also done some sensitivity reading and stuff like that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I sure have. I did a one of my favorite projects. I did a sensitivity read for Little Brown projects. I did a sensitivity read for Little Brown and it was for an author I love and she had written a book that included a type one diabetic main character. However, she herself does not have type one diabetes and she really cared and she had done a ton of research and she wanted to get it right and it was. It really struck me that, like, even with the ton of research, she'd got a lot of stuff wrong.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:It's like when I started that read, one thing that stuck out I remember this, this character she wakes up and she's giving her little brother his insulin. He's the type one diabetic and she says his blood sugar is 56 and she's going to give him some insulin. Oh my God, no, no, don't do that, you'll kill him. No, so like things like this that just you know, to me there's second nature. You know, even with her well-intentioned research, she still needed the guidance of a sensitivity reader. I've also used sensitivity readers in my own work. I have included, for instance, gender fluid on non-binary characters and I use sensitivity readers for that because that is outside of my lived experience and it's just amazing the things that you learn from other people's lived experiences when they read and weigh in on your book.
J. D. Myall:I love that we were actually having a conversation in one of our other craft chats about diversity and inclusion and things of that nature and stories and a lot of people are fearful of making their stories diverse because they're afraid of doing something wrong. And yeah, I've never shied away from that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:it's always the thing is that's how the world is and and you know, as someone who has, like, if you look at me, you might not know I have a disease, unless I literally like, show you my insulin pump, there's my pancreas right, like, otherwise you wouldn't know, it's hidden away and and I just there are. There are examples of diversity we see every single day and there are ones we don't even see, and so, because of that, like, I just try to be very mindful of that and I feel like writing should reflect the real world, even if we're, say, in a fantasy setting and we are, because even when we're in a fantasy setting, what we're doing is we're exploring real world issues and real topics and those affect everybody. So, yeah, I feel very strongly about making sure that my work reflects everyone, regardless of the setting.
J. D. Myall:Love that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:There's a question in the chat Somebody wants to know how you became a sensitivity reader. Ok, so that's a great question too. I know that there are some databases where you can sign up to offer that service. I don't specifically have the name of them in front of me so I would have to go look that up, but I've got them bookmarked, like I'm aware, and you can search. You know, sensitivity reader database and you can actually like register and become one. Like you can put yourself on a list so that you're visible so people can reach out to you. I did not do that. This author was aware of me and I, of course, like when I'm online, if I'm posting anything I try to share about my life, about my disease, what's hard about that? So she knew I was a type one diabetic. She asked for her editor specifically to get me if I was willing to do the work. So the publisher approached me.
J. D. Myall:Yeah, love that, love that. Let's move on to talking a little bit about writing craft. What do you think makes compelling characters?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So here's my trick with characters.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:You know we we can talk about at length, about main characters, but this is my secret to get a novel where you like all the characters or you feel something, they make you feel something, I give every single character in my books an arc, whether they are the main character or the smallest side character.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I give them, you know so, side character C. They start the story this one way and the events of the story shape their life in this way and here is where they end up and before I start writing a book, I think, through an arc, even if it's minor, through every single character, so that I know that every character is going to like be shaped by the events in the story. They're going to grow and change along with the narrative. So by the time you're done, all the people that you're interacting with, they've interacted with this plot and these problems and they have all come out changed. And I think that that is something people could do, or or spend more time on up front, to create really dynamic characters that really feel a part of the world and feel like fully actualized people.
J. D. Myall:I love that um what makes a good villain.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I love this question Villains. For me it's I'm sure you've heard this term, it comes up a lot these days morally gray shades of gray. I don't like. I've lived enough life to know that most people are not wholly good or wholly bad, and so I think when we consider our villains, creating a villain, there has to be something about them that either humanizes them or in some way helps the reader relate to their motivations. So, for instance and I'll just I'll use Rainy the Fallen again as an example here real quick the villain there, his motivation, is actually really good If you take away the way that he's going about it, which is freaking terrible. We don't murder and all these things. He's going about it in a horrible way. His intention isn't bad. The thing that he wants is something that readers will understand. Their society needs it, and so I think that making sure your villain comes across as human, as flawed, as having some redeemable aspects or having motivations that aren't just kill, murder, destroy, adds depth to your entire novel.
J. D. Myall:What are the essential elements of a good first page?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I mean, this is just my opinion. A killer first line. Hook me with your first line First page. I'll get into first page in a second, but seriously, forget the first page. Kill it with your first line. Write me a first line that I will always remember. Oh my gosh, I love a good first line. That'll determine you know how fast I'll get to something. Spell me on that first line A good first page. On that first line, a good first page. I'm getting to know your character but I'm not overwhelmed. A good first page you are, you know.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:To me a good first page isn't dropping me into the middle of action. A good first page isn't disorienting. A good first page is really presenting you with like a hook of what the story is going to be about and it's reeling you in. But your first page don't. Tension should rise throughout your novel. So your first page isn't the most tense page, but it's interesting. You're not confusing me with a long paragraph of exposition, but you are slowly easing me into your character and your world and introducing whatever central theme or problem, just a little hint of it, enough that I am interested and I am curious to continue on to the next page. That is a very fine balance. That's a hard thing. First page is uh make or break it very true, yeah, the writers avoid the saggy middle.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So for myself, how I avoid that is essentially these days I write to contracts, so these days I often work from a full outline where I have the benefit of going through and seeing what the events are going to be in the middle. But you know, it goes back to what I just said about we want to think about rising tension, rising action, about rising tension, rising action. And for myself, what I'll do is I'll have like some index cards or something with a couple of scenes plotted out through the middle of the book that I'm very excited to get to. This is my trick.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Okay, so middle of the book, let's, whatever scene this is, let's say it's a major character death. Well, I've got that on an index card and I know that's coming. What that does is, as I'm drafting, I am more and more excited to get to these points, to get to these scenes that are spread throughout the middle of the book. It causes me to naturally have the tension be rising because I am excited to get there. It helps to drive the story forward. It gives added momentum when you know what your big, exciting scenes throughout the middle of the book are how do you craft a compelling ending?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:for myself. I always know my ending ahead of time. When I'm writing a book, I need to know the end, I need to know the last line. Having that in my head the whole time allows me to stick the landing, if that makes sense, and I mean so really, what I'm telling you here is I pre-plan a lot. I know people talk about the pantsing and the fun, and it is fun.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Uh, one of my hobbies is role-playing, collaborative writing with other people, because I can turn off my internal editor, nobody's watching, I can make stupid typos and nothing has to make that much sense except to the person I'm writing with. And so I still write for fun and I do these sorts of things where I am making things up on the fly. That's a great skill and it's wonderful to be able to write quickly. I think that helps me to draft quicker when I'm writing professionally. But the truth is, when I'm writing professionally, a lot of planning goes into it up front to ensure that, like, all the elements are going to work together and I can stick that in.
J. D. Myall:Are there website or tools that you find helpful when you're drafting?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:This is terrible, but honestly, I use Microsoft Word. I use. I have a small laptop. I have a Lenovo thing that weighs like two pounds and I will take it to the library. Here's what's helpful to me Disconnecting from the internet and distractions.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So, like the tools, my toolkit is essentially like not so much a website, but it's writing in the same place every day, or writing at the same time every day and doing little things to clue my brain into. Yes, adhd, it's time to focus now. So by doing that and by having like a routine with my writing, I am able to more successfully draft when I'm in certain places One of my favorites. I live across the street from my local library and I often write in their quiet room. That really helps me to focus, surrounding myself with other folks who are also like working and quiet and focused. It's just perfect. And they have a rule about silencing technology and so it's like my distraction-free zone. I'd say that's my biggest help. I just, I honestly write in Word. I have a lot of friends who love things like Scrivener, but I'm not fancy. I have a lot of books. I don't know Microsoft Word. I don't do it every time, it's old-fashioned but it works.
J. D. Myall:How does your author-agent relationship work?
J. D. Myall:your agent agent help you decide what to write next? Or do you like pitch ideas to decide what would be more marketable, or do you just write it and let her sell it after? No, that's a great question.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I've actually done a little bit of everything I have like old manuscripts. I've given her that we've been pitched and sold and revised together. I will sometimes say I'm going to work on a new picture book. I'll give her a list of ideas and we'll pick something that we're both excited about. These days typically I'm writing for an editor, so like they might have something.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I have a book coming out called Bigfoot's Big Heart. It's a cryptid Valentine's Day. It's with Viking. It's really fun. But how that came about was my editor said hey, sarah, we're short a Valentine's Day book for our list for the coming season. Do you want to write one? And I said oh sure, can it be about Bigfoot? And she said that's weird but okay, and that's how we got started. So sometimes it's a conversation between editor and me rather than with my agent. But as far as like my own original projects and what I'm doing next, it's generally driven by me and not all agents are that way. But that's my agent is called Caitlin. That is my relationship with Caitlin and that is why I like being with her. She covers all the age ranges and genres and so I feel incredibly supported regardless of what I choose to write. So I feel a lot of creative freedom with her. We collaborate very well when we do get into the editorial process.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I'm actually waiting on her notes. Right now. I just wrote my first adult book, my first original adult book. It's a big book, it's like 130K. She's probably gonna tell me to cut like a third of this. It's a monster. But it's my first adult book. It's a romanticist, so it's like very spicy fantasy romance with like very low world building, low magic. I love it. It's all about the character dynamics. It's called we Could Be Antiheroes and I'm really excited about it. So I'm waiting on her notes on that right now. I basically told her hey, caitlin, I'm getting a little tired of writing YA. I want to stretch my wings in a new direction and I want to write some very spicy content because I'm good at it and it's something I do on the internet. And she was like, okay, let's do it, but I love that freedom. So that's what I'm exploring right now is breaking into adult. What do you?
J. D. Myall:how do you view the future of children's and YA literature?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Wow, that's a great question. So nowadays, books have to compete with so many other forms of media that kids are really into, and I think that's very difficult. Um, you know, so, realistically, books are going to have to be very exciting, very attention grabbing. Um, they might have to be briefer for kids, um, but I see, in general, I see kids and uh and YA as as moving toward more and more inclusivity, which I really love seeing. I think we're gonna.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:I mean, when I wrote Reign of the Fallen, I didn't think that it would sell because it has a bisexual main character and I didn't think that the industry was going to accept that. I thought that was going to get like maybe go to like an indie press that was like, you know, lgbt press or something. I didn't think that it would be, and so I was at my imprint. I was the first bisexual author writing fantasy and that sounds so weird because it wasn't that long ago, but in. So I think that came out in 2018. I think it sold in 2016.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So you look at, that's what we're 2024. So it's like eight years In the span of eight years now, so many different, diverse books. I can point you to so many bi-fantasy authors or characters. Now, in the YA space, in the kid-lit space, like we're gonna see more and more and more G-Points welcomed in. I think that's going to become the norm and I think that's really important because, like, I can't be your token bisexual author, because sexuality is not a monolith and I always speak for myself and so, like yikes, I don't speak for a group of people. I can't, I'm not them, and so I just think we're going to see a lot more inclusion, a lot more different viewpoints. I think there's going to be pressure to make things very exciting, to compete with other forms of media, and I think we may see a lot more like media tie-in type stuff Netflix shows, crossovers, things like that.
J. D. Myall:And as far as, like YA and adult're doing, you're dipping your toes in the adult arena too. Um, what do you think of the trends? What do you think is going to be like based on what you hear in the industry? What do you think is going to be the next thing, or what's that?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:yeah, I, yeah I read I read industry newsletters and stuff. Um, romanticy right now is all anyone wants. An adult. I will tell you that straight up and that's going to bleed into YA. Everybody wants romantasy. So, basically, like fantasies that don't require complex magic systems, like don't require a lot of thought to like immerse you into the world. Fourth Wing is going to be an example. I know the second book got very heavy on world building, apparently, but Fourth Wing is a great example of a romanticy. Uh, some of the sarah j mass books are also a good example. Um, that's what. That's what I know editors and book scouts and everyone are asking for. Uh, they are looking for, and they're also looking for things that can, um, quickly sell as movies and tv. That's the other thing they're looking for. They're really looking for more of the film tie and stuff that I mentioned.
J. D. Myall:Okay, anybody have any questions? I see you're going to unmute yourself and ask I have a question Regarding your titles. I thought the Bigfoot and Bigfoot was really cute. Were you able to keep your titles or did you have to sort of compromise on some of those? Thank you for the great question.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Oftentimes I'm able to keep them. So, fear the Drowning Deep, the Girls Are Never Gone. Reign of the Fallen I came up with those. Bigfoot's Big Heart I came up with that. Most of the time, yeah, I've kept kept my own titles. I will say the one time I didn't was the sequel to Reign of the Fallen ended up being called Song of the Dead. I think I sent that in as Rise of the Fallen because it's about the dead people rising up and I was like, oh yeah, rise of the Fallen. I got my edits back and they were like, by the way, the book's called Song of the Dead. Now we took over. I was like, okay, that wasn't even a title that I made up. They were the book's called Song of the Dead. Now we took over. I was like, okay, that wasn't even a title that I made up. They were like it's called Song of the Dead and I was like, all right, but in general I've made my own titles Like 90% of the time. Yeah, thank you.
J. D. Myall:Anybody else have a question? Hello, jump right in Hi.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Hi, sorry, anybody else have a question? Jump right in. Hi, sorry, you mentioned something having action, dialogue and something. When you're writing, I can't remember the last line.
J. D. Myall:I didn't catch the last line of when you were talking and you said you want a good mix of action dialogue. Thank you for the question Action dialogue and description.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Oh, thank you for the question. Action, dialogue and description oh, thank you. Thank you so much surroundings character yes, sensory details that type of thing.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Thank you so so much. I've been killing myself over what that last one was, because I think it was very important description yes, thank you, thank you so much. Thank you so much, thank you.
J. D. Myall:Anybody else have any questions for Sarah? Carl has one in his head.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Okay, Carl.
Speaker 1:So my question was when you give up on querying when do you like, when do you okay, when you're like? You know, just, it's stupid. The world has spoken.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:How do you know? Yeah, okay, okay. Well, I will say this because I've asked this before too, and my friend Jody Meadows she's a New York Times bestselling author when I asked her this question, you know what she made me do? She made me hold her first 16 manuscripts. She printed them all out.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:She had 16 that got rejected before she signed with an agent 16 books rejected before she got that, yes, and so she's made me hold them. Man, that's heavy, it's hard to hold that. How do you know when to give up on querying? Well, here's the thing If your query is getting you all those, the problem is your query.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:If you're getting requests for material from agents, then your query is working and your pages suck. It may not mean the whole book sucks. I mean typically and I sound so harsh, but typically what I see is if the first couple of chapters are off enough that all the agents are being put off by them, there are flaws in the entire manuscript that are going to need to be worked on right. Those few chapters don't exist in isolation. So if again, if, yeah, if your query is just getting stopped, you need to revise your query. Your query isn't working. I would be asking you have you looked at a catchy log line? Have you selected appropriate comp titles for your book? Have you crafted a summary that's less than 200 words. That's very attention-grabbing. So, yeah, if you're getting no's on your query, you need to work on your query. If you're getting no's on requested material, you need to go back. Go to your critique partners, find new critique partners and dig into your material again, because if you're getting to the request stage, it's your material failing you, not the query.
J. D. Myall:Love that Any other questions? Okay, where can everybody connect? With you?
Sarah Glenn Marsh:So, um, I am on Instagram at Sarah Marsh author. I'm technically on Twitter. I will not call it annex. I think it's silly. Um, I'm on Twitter at SG, underscore Marsh. I'm not typically there. Sarah Marsh, author on Instagram is a great place to find me, or my website is wwwsarahglennmarshcom. Awesome, and you're also on Facebook too, if they want to see adorable baby pictures, yeah, yeah, pictures of my dogs, my birds and my daughter Dawn, yeah, Thank you so much, we appreciate you.
Sarah Glenn Marsh:Hey, thank you. Thanks for all the wonderful questions. It was really great being here and I hope you all have a great night. Yeah, have a good night everybody.
J. D. Myall:Thank you for coming. Thank you again, Sarah, you have been brilliantly informative.
Speaker 4:That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD Meyer. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to JD JDMyall. com. That's JDMyall. com. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.