Season 2 Episode 12: Expert Writing Tips from JR Dawson: From First Pages to Final Drafts

Unlock the secrets of crafting unforgettable stories with JR Dawson, the brilliant mind behind "The First Bright Thing." In our latest episode of Craft Chat Chronicles, JR takes us on a journey from her humble beginnings writing short stories during her MFA at Stone Coast to landing a major publishing deal with Tor. Discover the resilience and determination it takes to find an agent and get a sneak peek into her upcoming novel set in 2005 Chicago, blending themes of grief, life, death, and dogs.

Considering an MFA? Tune in as we break down the essential factors to consider, spotlighting the dynamic and supportive environment at Drexel University. Learn how to transition from undergraduate to graduate studies with ease and balance academic commitments with your personal life. You'll also get insights into upcoming workshops and practical advice on making the most of your MFA experience.

But that's not all! We also share expert tips on writing gripping first pages, avoiding the dreaded saggy middle, and crafting compelling endings and villains. JR Dawson provides invaluable advice on character development and the surprises that come with being a published author. Whether you’re just starting your manuscript or polishing the final draft, this episode is packed with wisdom to help you on your writing journey.

https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener-affiliate.html?fpr=craftchat

Chapters

• 0:05 Author JR Dawson's Craft Chat Chronicles
• 14:56 Maximizing MFA Program Experience
• 29:43 Engaging First Pages, Avoiding Saggy Middles
• 37:16 Crafting Compelling Endings and Villains

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmayalcom. That's jdmayalcom.

Speaker 2: 0:36

In season two, episode 12 of Craft Chat Chronicles, we have author JR Dawson. We have author JR Dawson, author of the First Bright Thing. As co-chair of Drexel University's MFA Alumni Association, I love to bring in professors and authors associated with the program from time to time. So, without further ado, it's season two, episode 12 of Craft Chat Chronicles. Let's get chatty. Today we have JR Dawson, not only a gifted writer, but she's also a dedicated educator and a packet exchange professor at Drexel University in Philadelphia, residing in Minnesota with her spouse and three dogs. Her debut novel, the First Bright Thing, showcases her narrative excellence and it can be bought now. So go get it. And today she's going to talk to us about writing craft, about her publishing journey and about the Drexel MFA program and the MFA packet exchange process and all that good stuff. Welcome. How are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 1:41

Good, how are?

Speaker 2: 1:41

you Doing well, doing well. Can you start by telling me a little bit about your publishing journey?

Speaker 3: 1:47

Sure, so I started as a short story writer. I started writing short stories while I was going to my own MFA program, which was Stone Coast, and I had a really great teacher, james Patrick Kelly, who was there, uh, and he uh really got me uh into writing shorter form. And after I graduated from there, uh, my first story was, uh in Mothership, zeta and um, then my second story was was one of my favorites. That got into the Best of Anthology and then I finally got an agent around 2020. And we took out this weird little circus book.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Can we back up a second? I'm curious, how did we get our agent?

Speaker 3: 2:46

Yeah, so the agent process is really hard and I've heard that sometimes people think like, oh well, I'll just send out some queries and somebody will get back to me, and if they don't, then I'm a failure and I'm like, well, I started querying agents seriously in 2016. I started querying agents seriously in 2016 and I didn't land an agent for my solo work until January of 2020. And it kind of happened because of, like a Hail Mary and everything sort of clicked into place. My friend and I were co-writing a book that ended up not ever getting published, but it did get us an agent with somebody that she was friends with, and so it was kind of this like backdoor thing, like a networking thing, um, and it wasn't a query letter thing, which I was like, well, this isn't going to make a very good backstory, which I was like, well, this isn't going to make a very good backstory.

Speaker 3: 3:48

But uh, and then when I went, uh, to find my second agent, it's a lot easier to um, find another agent and like, move to another agent once you have a book out. So that was a lot of um just saying, hey, I'm looking for representation, are you interested? Um, and it was, it was, was, it was a lot faster. It took about I think a week um to find the second agent. So uh, yeah, so it's it was.

Speaker 3: 4:14

It was funky and um so, yeah, with uh in 2020, right when the pandemic was starting, uh, we sent out this little circus book to Tor and some other publishers and Tor Lindsay Hall, picked it up and was like, let's do this in a preempt. And a preempt means that they say, hey, we'll give you this certain amount of money if you give us exclusivity and just pull it from from submission everywhere else, um, and we won't go to auction. So they uh bought a two book deal and I've been working with lindsey ever since first bright thing came out last summer and the next book will be coming out next year what's the next one about?

Speaker 3: 5:02

so the next one takes place in 2005, chicago, and it is a very uh, it's based on I I say that it's orpheus in chicago, um, where, uh, lake michigan is, the river sticks, and there's a psychopomp who falls in love with the musician who's looking for, um, somebody who's looking for somebody who's died and has crossed over. So it's about grief and it's about what is life, what is death, and it's, I think, more importantly, about what is dogs.

Speaker 3: 5:40

There's a lot of like the Grim Reapers are dogs and they're my favorite oh, I love that dogs, because there's a lot of like the grim reapers are dogs and they're my favorite.

Speaker 2: 5:49

I love that. Okay, what do you think you did right that helped you get started in publishing?

Speaker 3: 5:55

um, I think that the big thing that I did right is I didn't give up. Uh, it is. It's really hard. You have to get used to having no reason to believe it's going to work out and still move forward and treating yourself with the respect that you need to be treated. So it's really hard in the beginning because you're working so hard probably the hardest you ever will on a manuscript and a whole story and kind of just putting yourself in there and then taking it out into query trenches and nobody may bite so it might get shelved after all that work, and so that can be really heartbreaking.

Speaker 3: 6:48

So if your first one doesn't go, you write a second one, and if that one doesn't go, you write a third one and you just keep going. And the thing is that those manuscripts are never gone. They're still there. It isn't like you take them out back and bury them, like you still have them, and a lot of people will go back to those manuscripts that didn't get representation and they'll rework them, they'll revise them and then try again once they have an agent and others will be.

Speaker 3: 7:18

We'll go back and look and be like, okay, that was good then and it got me to where I need to be and I'm probably gonna pick it for parts and not put it out there. But you're teaching yourself how to write when you are going into those worlds and writing these characters and plots that mean so much to you. And it's not saying anything about its quality If somebody doesn't pick it up. Especially in a post-pandemic world, it's just so hard to get an agent, um, that you can't take it personally how do you do your research for the historical elements in your stories?

Speaker 3: 8:00

uh, so we actually are kind of learning about that in the world building class that I'm teaching at Drexel this quarter how to do research for historical fiction. So there are a couple of different ways. There's primary sources, which are the sources that come from the actual time period, the actual place. The secondary sources, which is usually a piece of nonfiction that is referencing a primary source. And then we also have my favorite, which is field work and field investigation, where you actually go to the place and you conduct interviews and you walk around the area and you, like you know, are hands-on and kinesthetic to learn this space. Um, so those, I think, are the three big ways.

Speaker 3: 8:51

Uh, that's kind of a macro way of looking at it. When you're in writing historical fiction, like in the moment, if there is something that you absolutely need to look up, like what did a skirt, what was a skirt made out of in 1892, like you can kind of put it in parentheses and be like look up skirt thing and then keep going with your plot and your character and then go back and fill it in and if that changes anything with the plot and the character, you can revise it at that point, but you have to keep building the, the railroad tracks out, uh, in order to see what you need, um, another way to do it is just do a bunch of research up front and then write it. So once you get into the groove of what your historical fiction is going to be, you kind of figure out what works best for you, but the the important thing is to just keep going. I think that I've learned that first draft needs to not have a lot of research involved.

Speaker 3: 9:52

And then I do a lot of research and then second draft is is when I put that in and it definitely changes the shape.

Speaker 2: 9:59

Cool. Can you give us a couple of other quick world building tips, since that's your specialty?

Speaker 3: 10:05

yeah, sure, uh, so senses we also learned about that just a couple weeks ago in the world building class. Um, and how do you describe senses? And so if you say something like well, it tasted like an apple, like well, what does that mean? And you can use other senses to describe that, or you can even use memories, seasons, um, the the important thing is that you're creative about it and that it gives that, it relays that information to the reader, like you're putting that input into the reader's head and they're like oh, okay, um, so it doesn't have to all be like it was a box. It was, you know, like it was box shaped and that's what it looked like. It's like okay, but how did it make the character feel?

Speaker 3: 10:53

Um, I'm trying to think of what else, uh, and always leave lead with character. Character is is super important, and if you start with the world building itself and get really into the weeds about that world building and you don't have your characters yet, it might be a little harder to write from character because you want to kind of push them through your maze. So I say, have kind of an idea as to what you want this world to be, flesh out your characters and then go into the detailing of the world.

Speaker 2: 11:30

Okay, I'm going to pause real quick, okay. Um, so can you give us an example? Because you know, like I said, everybody who some people watching this will be in our direct soul family, but some might be people who've never walked in a creative writing class. So if jr dawson is the character, can you give us like a two sentence example of how you would phrase her? Walking in a room, like ask yourself, like how would you do, like setting, or you know?

Speaker 3: 12:00

I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not an improv actor, so I would.

Speaker 3: 12:07

So this is my uh attic up here um and the important thing about the attic that I want, that I would want to kind of build the world out with, like, especially if this is the beginning, is that I've only been in this attic for a few months.

Speaker 3: 12:23

This isn't the writing room that I've written most of my stories in, um, and grew as a writer, so I would probably do some kind of sensory type thing with the smell or how the walls are still bare, to kind of be like this is a new place, um, and also thinking about how, which words I choose to describe that, because it isn't necessarily like oh my gosh, we moved up in the world, like like this is so exciting, it's a new space, but it's like oh my gosh, we had to move. Like protection laws are a thing in the united states that we needed and we weren't safe in the home that we were in. So like, kind of making it more like bittersweet, like well, this is a nice room. It's not home yet, um, and it isn't one that we chose. So how I would go about doing that, what exact words I would use?

Speaker 2: 13:23

I would probably sit down and like think about it, maybe put on some music, but what you said was brilliant already because you turned the description into like emotion and putting it into the characters lens. So what you said was already brilliant. That already gives them more thought than just the walls are white. You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 13:41

Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:42

The voice and motion behind it. Okay, so now we'll talk a little bit about the MFA program. What brought you to the Drexel MFA program?

Speaker 3: 13:50

So one of my agent siblings said that Drexel was looking for packet instructors and before Drexel I had been an educator and I taught in the high school classroom. I've taught I say four-year-olds to Vietnam, veterans Like I just kind of been everywhere when it comes to age range and topic, as long as it had to do with creatively telling stories, long as it had to do with creatively telling stories, and so I had always wanted to work in a graduate program, especially after the professors at Stone Coast had meant so much to me and changed my life and I was like I really want to work at that level. So I started as a packet instructor and then asked if there was, if there was anything else I could do and we started to put together this class for this quarter and boot camp for next quarter and I'm just really excited, like it's, it's super fun.

Speaker 2: 14:54

Love it, I love it, I love it. What factors should prospective students consider when they're looking at an MFA program, and why should they choose Drexel's program?

Speaker 3: 15:03

Yeah. So I think Drexel is just like one really big family, like it gives you so many opportunities and it also, like is so welcoming, like is so welcoming, um, and so I think that that the amount of experience that you're going to get the, the places you're going to see, the people you're going to meet, is really amazing, um, and I think that the other students at Drexel, the current students that we have, are like gosh. They push themselves so hard. Um, and so if you are looking for a program where you're going to be supported, you're going to experience new things and you're going to be in an environment where everybody is really excited about their work and is pushing to get even better, I think that this is a really wonderful program. Also, the mascot is a dragon, so clearly it's amazing.

Speaker 3: 16:07

I would say that if you're looking at going to an MFA program or going to Drexel, make sure that when you're entering the graduate program, you are coming with kind of a different mindset than you would go for a bachelor's or for your high school diploma.

Speaker 3: 16:24

I feel like for undergrad and for high school, it's very much like, well, I have to jump through these hoops in order to get this degree, in order to, you know, do this thing, and so it's more about how can you get the homework done, the you know, the fastest, the best that you can like. Here let me check the boxes. Whereas, at the graduate program, you're treated like an adult, because you are an adult and you're there for you. So if it's the difference between, like, taking a shortcut on one of your assignments or really pushing yourself, like which one are you prepared to do? So make sure that you're coming into it for you and make sure that you are ready to dedicate that time and that energy to your education, cause, lord knows, none of us make enough money Like this is this has been med school.

Speaker 2: 17:26

I love that you mentioned your bootcamp. Can you tell me a little bit about?

Speaker 3: 17:28

the bootcamp. Yeah, so it's going to be a fantasy writing workshop. Uh, it is on the weekends starting next quarter, um, and so we will. Every time that we meet, we'll be learning about some other sub-genre fantasy or how to publish fantasy, or something about the fantasy world out there today, and then we will be workshopping our work in a group setting. So that's going to be really exciting.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Sounds fun. I'm sad they didn't have that when I was there, but glad you're there for other people now. I think I was like the only fantasy person in my class, though we have a lot of literary people in my group, but good to see that we're coming up enough to have classes and all that great stuff there oh yeah. To have glasses and all that great stuff there, oh yeah. How do um the packet exchange? How do you handle that? And how does that go from the first contact with the student to when you're writing that last comment in the draft and giving them their critiques? How does that work for you?

Speaker 3: 18:33

yeah, it's, it's. It's strange because it doesn't feel like there's a beginning, middle and end to to working on the packets. Because when, by the time, it doesn't feel like there's a beginning, middle and end to to working on the packets, because when, by the time it comes to me, like the student already has pages, already knows you know what this is going to be, um, and even if it's just a first draft, like there's something to to turn in for their packet. So I'm not there at the, at the creation of the idea. And then, when, uh, I'm doing final edits on, like um, final comments on on somebody's thesis, like that's not the end of that project because it's going to have a life outside of the thesis, um, you know, and so I, it kind of feels like I'm sort sort of, I'm sort of there to help push the student along just a little bit of the way, and it's it's always super great to see where an idea and where a student begins and where we end. Does that answer that question?

Speaker 2: 19:36

It does, it does. How would you suggest incoming students maximize the experience of the MFA program?

Speaker 3: 19:43

Yeah. So I would say, um, any experience that is handed to you, if you can afford it and you have the time and energy to do it, do it. Uh, there's a lot of really cool stuff that comes down the pipe and, and you know, just say yes, I guess. Also, if it's the difference between doing a smaller project or doing a bigger project, if you have the energy to do the bigger project, definitely do that.

Speaker 3: 20:15

And another thing that you learn in graduate program, especially in a low residency, is the balance between all of the stuff that is happening in your life and all of the stuff that is happening in your fictional life. How are you conserving your energy for the program and how are you also conserving your energy and honoring, you know, you as a person and the people you love? And a day job, cause a lot of us who are out of MFA programs, who or who never went and just like, went into professional work like us, professionals don't do like. I would say 90% of all working authors have a day job and a lot of us have kids, a lot of us have some sort of family. You know, we still need to figure out holidays and we still need to change our oil, like like life is going to continue. So how, like life is going to continue. So how do you, as an adult, balance both of those things so they get done and you feel not completely worn out?

Speaker 2: 21:30

Love that, love that, love that, love that. What?

Speaker 3: 21:40

would you suggest students do to help them prepare for the packet exchange before they get in your classroom? I would say, prepare for comments and criticism. Know that your packet exchange instructor is there to help you and really believes in you. Like that's why they're a teacher in the first place and that's why they're working with you. And so I think that sometimes when a new student gets like their very first packet back and they see it marked up, they're like oh my gosh, I messed up. And it's like no, it's not English class in high school. Like it's okay, you want it to be marked up because this is a first draft and that means that somebody believes in it enough to mark it up and have all of these little comments in the corners.

Speaker 3: 22:25

So I think that also a lot of working writers, like people who are getting published, have a hard time with edit letters and all of the comments that come back on a Word doc and you just kind of have to change your mindset about it. That it's it's less. Oh, no, it's a red pen and more, oh, somebody's helping me sculpt this. This is exciting. This is a discussion about my work, um. So I think that preparing yourself for that criticism and understanding that the criticism is done out of love and it's more of a commentary or a discussion than it is like a criticism, um. I also think that getting a planner and putting in like learning how to use a planner, um, and keep those deadlines, is also going to help you with your packets. And also in in real, in real life, when you're working on, you know, on something with an editor, co-author, an agent what advice do you have for students on their relationship with the professor they're doing the thesis packet exchanges with.

Speaker 2: 25:04

As far as making sure everything goes great, you guys are getting along swimmingly. Like what are the best practices?

Speaker 3: 25:10

uh. So I would say trust your professor that they want what's best for you. Uh. And also I would say be honest with your professor about what is going on, like you don't have to get into the detail, but like if you have a family emergency that happens, like don't feel bad to tell your professor, hey, I need an extension. Hey, you know, this thing happened, it wiped me out. You know. That's why maybe this packet X, y, z? Um. Just be honest and open in communication.

Speaker 2: 25:50

Okay, now we'll move on to oh, before we do that, um, so how do you think getting your MFA helped you in your writing profession? Like cause, there are writers who've done it without an MFA, but do you think that the MFA was, for you personally, worth it and how did it enrich you as a writer?

Speaker 3: 26:08

Yeah, absolutely so. I made a very conscious decision to go and do an MFA. A lot of my colleagues some of my colleagues did go and do an MFA or they did other programs like Odyssey or Clarion, and then there are some that did not and they just self-learned and self-taught and went along their way, and I think that it has to do with our learning styles and who we are as people. I personally really needed to know what I was doing.

Speaker 3: 26:42

Like I wasn't going to be able to figure this out on my own. Um, and and I knew that, like I wanted to be in a setting where people were dedicating their time and and they were um, invested in teaching me like, not only you know how do I put a sentence together, but what is it like to be a published writer how do I do that? It also teaches you networking. One of the biggest things about being in an MFA program for me is when I stepped out into the real world in 2016,. I was never without a friend. I wasn't alone, and a lot of people are very alone in this situation. They have to find community. But my cohort were some of my closest friends, and the cohorts above and below me were also very, very, very close friends. And every time that I would go to a writing conference, some of us would be there and like there's pictures of us, like in 2018, like with just a bunch of us at, you know, icfa in Orlando, like taking a picture together. And there are also people who graduated way before me, who were already in the field, who I could say, hey, oh my gosh, we went to the same MFA program. Oh my gosh. Well, this professor did it, you know. So it gives you a sense of community and family before you even step out into the world. Um, and, and those that family is. I'm so grateful for my friends, um, like they completely changed my life. Uh, and they're they're very much like like family now.

Speaker 3: 28:18

Um, so I would say that that was a really big one. It also gives you mentorship. Like, oh my gosh, it gives you mentorship. Like there are some amazing professors who, even after I graduated, I would call or I would you know, email and be like, hey, this is what's going on. And they'd be like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's how you deal with this. And so it was really wonderful to have people who were way ahead on the track, like, how do I, how do I, how do so?

Speaker 3: 28:55

I would say that the people were really big. It also gave me permission to give dedication to the craft instead of just being like, oh well, this is, you know, this is a selfish act that I'm doing Like I need to be grading more papers or I need to be staying at the high school longer, or I need to be, you know, doing all of these things that my family needs. It was like, well, I'm in school. So this is homework, so I need to do it, and this is this is my dedicated two years that I do it, so that was also really helpful.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Love that. Now let's move on to some craft stuff. For people who are just starting their thesis packet or just working on the writing in general. In your view, what are the key elements that make a first page stand out in a manuscript or in a packet for like teachers I can't talk today for like for like teachers, editors, agents or whoever would pick it up what makes the first page hook a reader?

Speaker 3: 29:59

Yeah. So I think that the way that a teacher looks at a first page is way different than like the way an agent or an editor or reader would look at it. Like, um, the teacher, we're looking at it like, okay, what's going on? You know what is the writing style? How has it grown since the last time? You know, like there's things that teacher brain looks into that isn't necessarily reader brain, um, but I would say that, as a teacher, we also look at what is the agent, the editor, the reader gonna see, um, which is you gotta really hook them in right ahead, like right away.

Speaker 3: 30:34

If you um go to any bookstore and you sit there and you watch anyone open up a book, it's like they, they take the book, they look at the cover. Well, first it's on the shelf and they're like, oh, that's a cool cover which we have no control over what our cover looks like, really. And then they pick it up and they open it up and they read the little blurb and they're like, huh, okay, and if they like that blurb, um, which is your main plot idea, then they'll flip to the beginning of your first chapter and they'll read the first page. And if they like that first page, then they'll be like, okay, I guess, I guess I'll buy it. Um, but if they read that first page, they're like, oh, my gosh, okay anyway, and they move on. Because, like we, you know, the country's economy is not super great right now. We don't have a ton of like money to put towards books. Books are super expensive Like I think that adult books are going for like $25 to $30 right now for a hardback. Like it's wow, wow, and so it's an investment on the reader, on the reader's um part, and that means that it's a risk on the agents and editors part, because they are also investing their money into getting it out there.

Speaker 3: 31:55

So you gotta hook them. Like you can have the most wonderful world and the coolest thing could happen in act three and it won't matter, because that that first page was like the room was dark and it was raining outside and I was sleeping, and it's like no, no, no, no. Like you have to come up with what, what is so cool about your world. And so, when it comes to that first sentence, I read somewhere and I wish I remembered who to credit for this but someone said in that very first sentence you need to have like a microcosm of your entire story, which sounds like a lot, and that's why the first sentence is probably going to be revised more than the rest of the book. So you have to kind of set the stage with that very first image.

Speaker 3: 32:47

In the first sentence you need to say, like, who is the main character? What is our perspective? Like, where is our focus going to be? Where and when are we Like, is this on a spaceship in 100 years from now or is this on, like a farm in england in 1842? Like we kind of need to know, um, and what is the vibe like is are we, are we worried about like, uh, you know, is an alien coming in um to attack the spaceship in this story? And even if the alien isn't there yet, how do we make it feel kind of like that feeling of dread and tension in that first sentence? So I kind of see the first sentence is like a teaser poster for a movie, um, and and take your time with that first page, because it's the most important page in the book.

Speaker 2: 33:46

Very true, very true. How do writers avoid the saggy middle?

Speaker 3: 33:51

If you find out, let me know. Two is is usually a mess, um, because it's kind of the um attempt and fail cycle or it's it can also be the um fun scenes of, of the episodes of the blog you know. Kind of the thing is is that it can turn into filler episodes very quickly or you can think, okay, well, what should be in act two? And then you end up writing all these scenes that you don't like and you find boring and you're like I don't want to write this. Then don't write it, because if you're bored, everybody else is gonna also be bored. Like you have to be invested first in order for that to shine through.

Speaker 3: 34:37

Um, so I would say, if you have a saggy act two, uh, is it because like the pacing's off or like you need to go back and revise it, or is it because you have some scenes that you didn't want to write and there could be something more interesting there, um, but you are interested in writing. Also, I think sometimes we know what act three is gonna be. So we kind of have to, we try to mold and push and control what's happening in act two to get to act three. Um, so if that's the case, uh, I would say, let your characters do what they do and if they end up in a completely different Act 3, then that's fine. That's okay.

Speaker 3: 35:24

You can keep Act 3 for another book, but these characters didn't want to end up there. So, yeah, it can be. It is normal for the saggy middle to exist, but it is to like diagnose what is going on with your saggy middle. You kind of have to sit down and have real talk with your manuscript in order to avoid it. Like, if you're in act one and you're going into an act two, I would say don't write anything you don't want to write and don't be afraid of the book going off in a different direction, and also don't be, don't like. I feel like a lot of us like hold back on the interesting part, like, oh, but in act three there's this really cool scene, like put it in act two and see what happens, and then what happens after that really cool scene.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Love that, Love that. You asked a question where you said something that made me think of a question you mentioned when you were talking about having a talk with your manuscript and stuff like that. I'm wondering do you hear your characters? A lot of writers do.

Speaker 3: 36:34

Yeah, I think that people's brains were, I mean like, because there's the idea of, of, like can you actually pull a song up in your head and listen to it, or does that sound like there's the idea of anphantasia and like how our, how our brains work. But, um, yeah, like I think that it's weird for me because I don't I know that they're not real. And if they are not, like gelling with me, I'm like, oh, what is going on with you? And I kind of have to like rework that character until I have some sort of buy-in with them. Um, but yeah, once you start writing a character and then you keep writing them and you're doing all of this work, if you're doing that character well, uh, and you're really tuned into what this person is doing and who they are, there will be a point where you're writing and they'll do something and be like why did you do that? And you'll want to take it back.

Speaker 2: 37:34

You'll be like don't do that, it's almost like it happens through you, not like it's something you're creating.

Speaker 3: 37:39

Yeah, yeah, because it's kind of like you're writing, it's something you're creating. Yeah, yeah, because it's it's kind of like you're you're writing a program you know, like and you're teaching the program, or the program is acting a certain way, and so you put that program into a, into an experience. The program's gonna do something. You're like wait what? And so that staying true to that character is allowing the character to do that thing, um, so so yeah, there's, there's definitely a lot of um, bad acting characters and you want them to act bad.

Speaker 2: 38:07

I love that. I love that. I love that. Um. Do you have any advice for crafting a compelling ending?

Speaker 3: 38:15

yeah. So I think that a really good ending doesn't necessarily stop at that book. It keeps the audience in mind, that, like, human beings are reading this and there's I like to call it a call to action, like when they put the book down. You don't want the experience of that book to necessarily be over. You want it to compel the reader to do something. Um, if it's just loving themselves, or like getting up and and joining a protest or whatever it is that you, you wrote your book for, um, so it has real life impact.

Speaker 3: 38:56

Um, and you also, like, when the reader puts the book down and like, walks out of the room and sees somebody, you, you want them to be like, oh my gosh, I just read this book. And like, what kind of discussion is going to be opening? Or like, even if they don't go, oh my gosh, I just read this book. Like, you know, three days from now, they're riding in the car with someone and they're like, do you think that if this happened, I would do this? Like, and it's still like in their head. So you have to think about, like, what is? You have to do the opposite of the first page, which is hooking them in and showing them the world and knowing your world from there. But it's also how are you saying goodbye to that world? And you're like you're like okay, bye, now remember. Like you're, you're putting that final feeling on it.

Speaker 3: 39:48

Um, I also you if, if you're writing a standalone and even if you're wanting to write a series, um, nothing is saying that that series is actually going to be a series or is going to be finished. There's a lot of series out there that either don't get finished because you know something happened to the author, or the author like didn't finish this whatever, or that the publisher was just like well, it didn't sell enough and so we're not going to do the second book. So you want the person who spent 30 bucks on this book to have some sort of satisfaction. So those the big threads need to be tied up at the end, like we need to know what is happening with the main character, we need to know whether it's a return to stasis or if it's a new stasis. But it needs to have some kind of stasis so we can feel not like wait, where'd the rest of the book go. So not finishing it like Infinity War would be great.

Speaker 2: 40:53

I like that. What makes a good?

Speaker 3: 40:55

villain, oh, okay. So I think what makes a good villain is that they you could see them as not a villain. I think that a good villain has humanity and makes good points, and that makes you uncomfortable, uh, so in, uh, first bright thing um edward is the villain and he uh, he's also like kind of a, a soldier in a class war too, though like he doesn't have a lot of money. He makes a lot of really good points about um, like socioeconomics and the disparity in the world, um, and sometimes he uses his evil powers not for good, but to kind of stick it to the man. He has like an eat the rich mentality and that's not necessarily best, but he's a terrible human being and so, um, and you can also see, like, where his trauma comes from, like why did he become this, this terrible person? Um, but it doesn't excuse it, and so it's like this weird discomfort where you're like this is a, this is a horrific human, but also this is a human um, and I think that that's that's super important when we're writing villains, because I think that, um, it is, it is easy to make a bad guy who we're like oh, we could never turn. Never turn into that Well, we could never.

Speaker 3: 42:25

That's inhuman, that's a monster. But the thing is is that all of the monsters of human history have been human, like they've. They've been children and then they died, like, not when they were kids, cause children aren't evil, but they've been children. They, you know, ate food. They, they had a favorite song and you know they passed um, or they soon will pass, like I. So that that is an uncomfortable truth about people, um, and I think that you can do a lot of powerful writing and powerful discussion and allowing your monsters to um have that humanity love that.

Speaker 2: 43:14

I love that. I love that. Is there anything that you wish you had known before you were published that you'd like to share?

Speaker 3: 43:21

I think that I wished that I'd known how hard it was, or actually, no, I don't want to know how hard it was, no, no Cause they would do it, but I wish that I had invested more time in hobbies and in things that bring me joy. That wasn't writing, because that's something that I've really had to do in the last like eight months. Is you know last year? Is you know what about life doesn't have anything to do with that book? Like, because there's going to be so many reviews coming in, there's going to be so many like what about this award? What about these numbers? What about this person? What about these translations?

Speaker 3: 44:10

Like, all of this stuff comes in and it's all external and you have no control over it. Um, but if you, you know, are recovering child, you very much want to excel, but have no control over Once you write it, it's out there in the world. You're like well, what else could I be doing? And it's like not much so, in order to have a well-rounded life, knowing who you are and your worth, and having a hobby that has absolutely nothing to do with publishing is going to give you an escape. Um, so you're not just sitting there refreshing your goodreads page um so, so definitely have an escape best writing and publishing advice you've ever heard okay.

Speaker 3: 44:57

So when I was in undergrad, Steve Allman came to talk and he said that if you keep going, then you will get published.

Speaker 2: 45:11

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 3: 45:12

Yeah, and I was like, oh okay, so as long as you keep going, eventually something will stick. So you just did your debut year. How did that go? Um? So there's usually a slack that goes up, um, and that's where you're gonna make a ton of friends and that's kind of kind of be your like debut cohort, um. So there has been some snafus with the 2024 group that's where all of that fun Kate Corain stuff came from. But the 2023 group like we're great, like we didn't have any of those problems. So I hope that 2025 is a safe place to go and is as supportive and amazing as 23 was, and that the bad stuff of 24 is done.

Speaker 3: 46:08

But I would definitely hunt down that Slack group and become really involved with your cohort and it'll give you support and it'll also open you up to a lot of really good like networking opportunities and amazing books that are coming out that year and you can hype each other up um also like for real, though, go get a hobby that has nothing to do with that book.

Speaker 3: 46:32

Um, and there's really like also like no going in that you have no control over what your marketing budget's going to be, over how big your publisher is, um over whether or not you know librarians or booksellers really attach to it, or Barnes and Noble picks it up like there's so much stuff that isn't your job, that is the publisher's job, um that you really don't have any say in um, and so, just like it's kind of like surfing you have to go with the wave. You can't make the wave happen or make the wave bigger or smaller. So I also would say, like, make sure that the social media that you want to use for your outward facing life is, you know, public and ready to go and you've got your handles and the social media, um and internet use that you want for your private life. Um is locked down Um because there's the same for everything.

Speaker 3: 47:36

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly, it's just like getting a, getting a, like a job that's in the public eye um, but it's. It's less about like hiding who you are or hiding something, and more about like, if you're having a bad day and you want to post those emo, my chemical romance lyrics like where are you gonna go put?

Speaker 2: 47:56

That's true. Okay, um, any um. Closing words for the rest of the world.

Speaker 3: 48:04

Uh, keep going and also invest in yourself. And I think that was Brandon Sanderson who said write your current book Like the next one is going to be a bestseller, like, just give yourself respect and, um, believe in yourself. Uh, and that's going to get you super far because you unfortunately, in this career choice that we all have some, for some reason, made for ourselves. You have to believe in you before anybody else can. You have to do all of this upfront work with no proof that it's gonna pay off love that, love that.

Speaker 2: 48:47

I appreciate you. Thank you so much for your time. Where can anybody connect with you on social?

Speaker 3: 48:51

media and stuff. Yeah, so I'm on instagram at jr dawson writer um. I am on twitter at j underscore R underscore Dawson. I'm on blue sky at JR Dawson writer and my website is JR Dawson writer dot com, so you can go there too.

Speaker 2: 49:10

And if you guys want any more wisdom from JR Dawson, you can find her at Drexel University. Take her classes, it's true. Thank you so much. You have been a joy. It has been so much fun. I appreciate your time awesome, thank you. Thank you, see you soon. Hopefully you'll be at alumni events.

Speaker 4: 49:26

That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with jd mayor. Thanks for joining us. If you like the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to JDMeyercom. That's JDMeyercom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and