The Therapist Caregiver: Managing Professional and Personal Challenges with Jared Andes

What happens when a therapist becomes a full-time caregiver? Meet Jared Andes, a licensed clinical social worker and registered play therapist supervisor who opens up about his emotional and physical journey while caring for his medically dependent son. Jared shares the recent challenges of simultaneously caring for his younger son and wife, leading to an intense period of burnout. Hosts Maria LaCare and her co-host, an LMFT, engage Jared in a heartfelt discussion about the balance between professional therapeutic responsibilities and personal caregiving.

Mental health professionals often face the stigma of needing support themselves. This episode addresses these challenges head-on with personal anecdotes emphasizing authenticity's value over constant professionalism. Join us for a robust conversation that aims to break down stigmas and build a community of support for those who give their all, professionally and personally.

Contact Info: Jared Andes, LCSW, RPT-S

Email: jaredcandes@gmail.com

A Hero's Welcome Podcast  © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:36

Hello listeners, Thanks for joining us today. I'm Maria LaCare, your co-host, and I'm here with my other co-host.

Speaker 2 0:44

I love her face. I am the other co-host, I'm an LMFT and we're here with a special guest. How do you want to introduce yourself, Jared?

Speaker 3 0:58

yourself, jared. My name is Jared Andes. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and a registered play therapist supervisor the first time I've been able to say that in a public forum. Really. I'm also the father of two children, two boys that are just amazing, and they'll be part of our conversation today.

Speaker 1 1:11

Excellent and the listeners? You do not know this unless you stalk us on social media, but Jared and I are friends, and actually, jared, liliana and I all met at a training hosted by Jen Taylor in Hawaii, pre-pandemic, and so that's where our original connections have been made. But, jared, you are joining us today to talk about something you're quite passionate about.

Speaker 3 1:35

Yes, and I've been passionate about for a while, but it became even more clear to me recently how important a topic this is, and that is taking care of the therapist, who is also a caregiver. All of us in our jobs are caregivers, but sometimes in our homes and our families, we are caregivers as well.

Speaker 1 1:51

Yes, absolutely, and the three of us present all have people that we are taking care of at home, and so this is an important topic, but we were really excited that you've taken it and kind of given this consideration, so much so that we're going to chat about it for a little bit. So was there something recent that kind of sparked this becoming more important for you?

Speaker 3 2:15

So the original introduction to this topic was 18 years ago. So my oldest son this is not something a lot of my clients know a lot about. I always introduce this topic kind of generally, but so this is again one of the first times I'm talking about this really publicly. My oldest son has a couple of medical diagnoses that make it impossible for him to take care of himself, so we have always had to give him 24 hour care, which meant that we sometimes had to do tag team parenting. So I worked nights, that my wife could work days, and so there's always one of us with him. But it wasn't always easy to do and sometimes very exhausting, and so that's been going on for the last 18 years.

Speaker 3 2:54

But then two months ago my son dislocated his knee and he was on crutches. He was able to take care of himself, generally speaking, but he definitely was not able to help out like he often does. And that's the younger son, the 15 year old. And then my wife had surgery and she was down for the count. It was really really hard recovery for her, and so I found myself caretaking all three of them at one time, and at first it was, you know, it was no big deal. I was like, okay, thankful, I'll work, I'll take care of you, everything's great. But then after a couple of weeks I noticed that I was much more tired, much more irritable. There were like things going on in my, my practice where I was like, oh okay, like I've got three cancellations today, great, and at least I can sit and, like, take a minute for myself. And I realized that all of those things were adding up to tell me that I was getting burned out. From there it became a much more important topic to me.

Speaker 1 3:51

Yeah, I love that. I don't think I mean you and I are both caregivers, but I don't even think we've talked a lot about that burning the candle at both ends aspect.

Speaker 2 4:02

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think a lot of our focus and conversations have been more from being the therapist, the therapist going through something but not actually talking about for both of us also being in a caretaker role. Us also being in a caretaker role right, and I love one. Thank you, jared, for for coming in and talking to this publicly about. You know, we're more than therapists.

Speaker 2 4:26

Therapists is something that we do. That's one role, um that we have. But we're more than that and because we're human, uh, we get higher, not just with our cases and the bs of comes with it, um, not our clients, but all the book work and stuff. Sometimes our clients, um, and we also can get irritable, but you know we go home and it doesn't stop. You have to be on and even as you're discussing right, not only taking care of your 18 year old um, but then like surgeries and and other demands that we have and we still it's expected that we still have to show up and do it with a smile and we available and in. One of the clear signs that I love that you became aware right away is when clients were canceling and you're like, thank God.

Speaker 1 5:25

Some relief, some relief for something that typically causes anxiety and distress.

Speaker 3 5:28

And, by the way, I don't think it's a major coincidence that all three of us have a caretaking role. Actually, one third of Americans are caretaking someone in their home, which is a really big number if you think about it. I don't know that there's any studies out there to demonstrate exactly how many therapists are also caregivers, but we typically go into this field because that's part of our identity, part of how we identify with ourselves, so we are more likely to be caretakers. I also want to point out really quickly that I am aware that any effort that I make in caregiving is viewed very differently by like society. In general, I get an applause for any caretaking that I do. Well, women typically don't. I don't know that that's always the case, but I am aware that people are like, oh, I think that's great, like I've been out in public with my son, and be like, oh, you're such a good dad, and it makes me a little bit uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 6:14

But also I don't know how often that happens for women it's kind of the expectation yeah, oh, and I love that because I was like, oh, my god one when I first met you and I was like, oh my god, he's such a good dad and I was like, yeah, no, I do not get that no, I, I really appreciate your awareness of that.

Speaker 1 6:38

Um and again, you're in this field and you're a helper and I think that that's why you are aware that. But yes, absolutely, I think there is still that gender discrepancy being heard about this, because it's while, it's applauded, it's also not viewed as often as like oh well, that is also something that you're doing right. I think if someone went on the outside looking in, it was like, oh well, jared's wife must be so that he can do what he's doing right, and that's not always the case. You know my husband. My husband is very much, he's the primary caregiver in our household and that also comes with its own like surprises and conversations and comments for sure, and I think I think it all should be celebrated right. Having to do all that we're doing both professionally and at home, is worth celebrating.

Speaker 3 7:38

Yeah, and I think that's kind of the secret life. Liliana, you definitely have something to say there.

Speaker 2 7:42

No, no, I was just thinking of that. I was like thank you, because I need more therapists like you to highlight that in regards to one, you are special and I say that because I have seen you interact with your son and the attention that you give, the way that you respond, should be a staple of how everyone should respond. When you have the capacity, I'm going to add that caveat. But also in regards to gender equality, the awareness that you have that how you get celebrated versus how a female will get celebrated, I think that's also really nice to highlight, especially in a profession.

Speaker 3 8:19

I think that's also really nice to highlight, especially in a profession where the majority are female, and I'd love to take all of the credit for just being so brilliant on noticing these things, but I have people in my life who helped me to remember you know, not only is my experience my experience and not everyone's experience, but also there are other points of view that I need to consider, so this is definitely not all me.

Speaker 2 8:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, you're so humble?

Speaker 3 8:46

Am I humble? No, I'm not humble. Those people may listen to this and they'll say, jared, we had a conversation about that and all of a sudden you own it. So I am really grateful for the people who you know help me make sure that my perspective is not. You know, I don't kind of create that as the only perspective that's out there.

Speaker 2 9:01

And even as you're talking right, I was like, well, got a gift for the clients and the systems of the clients that you're working. When you're able to have this shared experience and even be curious about these roles that they have and how they respond, how society is expecting them to respond, how they respond, how society is expecting them to respond. I think there is a gift there for your clients, but also a gift for all the listeners who are paying attention to this podcast. In regards to what roles that you play, what is the expectation that society has of you because of even gender right? But without deviating from this topic, I also want to bring it back to. So, then, how do you talk to therapists about the self-care that they need when their rules of caretaking is on all the time?

Speaker 3 10:02

I think, first off, we have to normalize that this is something that caregivers, therapists, will experience, therapists who are also caregivers will experience. It has to be the norm and not some sort of fluke, some sort of bug in the system. We are born with the capacity to take care for others. That's part of our human nature. We also are not born with limitless supplies of energy, and so we have to be aware I only have this budget and so when I go over my budget on energy or over my budget on time, there is some sort of consequence. So making sure that that's not just a topic about like, hey, make sure that you get to go to the beach once a year, or, you know, you take a bubble bath, which, by the way, doesn't work for me I don't like bubble baths whatsoever, but that's usually what I hear about.

Speaker 3 10:45

Self-care, right, making sure people know that, first off, there is a burnout self-test out there that they can take regularly, like every quarter, every six months. Take it and see where you are, if it's showing that there are some risk factors or you are burned out, and then it's time to make sure that you evaluate where your energies go. And again, not every caregiver's experience is the same. But a lot of caregivers will say I have no choice, like if I'm not doing this, who's going to do it? That's one of the really, really tricky points, because we don't, you know. One of the responses is we're going to put the burden of recovering from your burnout on the person who's burned out. So you need to reach out to people.

Speaker 3 11:25

You need to reach out to people, you need to create your relaxation, and that's a lot for a person who's already burned out, so we need to make sure that it's normalized. We also need to make sure that people have access to really good, high quality self-care options, and that does, by the way, sometimes mean we, as therapists who are also caregivers, need to create a community of caregivers who are also in the same situation that we're in, because we can't always reach out. Sometimes we do need someone to reach out and throw us a lifeline.

Speaker 1 11:56

I love that. I love that. The assessment that you're talking about is that, the ProQOL.

Speaker 3 12:01

That is one of them, and that's a really good one, yeah, and if you can Google burnout self-test and you can find lots of them, I actually am not particular about which one the person uses. I just hope that people will do a little self-assessment from time to time. I think it's actually very important.

Speaker 1 12:17

Yeah, the ProQOL is one that's developed for the helper field, which is kind of helpful. I know here my ideal schedule is to do it quarterly with our staff, but it's, you know, it's usually like once a year, if not maybe twice a year, um, but it is really important to continuously screen, for, you know, I always call it like we're getting a little crispy around the edges, like we're getting a little, we're getting a little burnt out yeah.

Support for Caregivers

Speaker 2 12:43

So I love this conversation because there's like lots of thoughts coming in, which is one is how do we make associations or regulating us aware that you're just not a therapist, you're also a human who have different roles, and the expectation that they have of us is just not realistic and it's not long term because of this burnout. I also love that you said, and even when we're talking about burnout, the whole idea that go take a massage, get a bubble bath, like okay, and then what else can we do about it? Right. But I think the most important thing that like linger right away is when a lot of us who are caretakers, who also are therapists, go into the cognition of I have no choice, it has to be me, right, and I keep thinking how our master's program and then regulatory boards have really ingrated that idea of you have to do this. You're the only one, because of what you know, because of your skills, you have to take this on. So I love the faces of both of you vomiting here, because I'm like holy cow.

Speaker 1 14:07

no, but it, but it's true, it's true. So so, jared, what are some steps? How do we, how do we change this?

Speaker 3 14:16

What a giant question. The answer is definitely going to be longer than this particular podcast, but you know when we go, let's go back to grad school. When we were in grad school, we would look at problems and we would talk about approaches. I assume that your programs are similar to mine and we would talk about approaches in the micro, macro or micro, meso, macro, right, so micro. First thing that I want to say about this is any therapist, I think it's important for them to have their own therapist. A therapist is also a caregiver Incredibly important, if you can. So actually, this week I had to go to the dentist to get some dental work done and I'm just trying to picture going to a dentist and having the dentist say to me I've actually never been to a dentist, I would run from that office, right, I would not let a dentist who's never had dental work done on him or her touch my teeth, a hundred percent. Dentist who's never had dental work done on him or her touch my teeth 100 same thing, you know, talk about massage therapy, but I wouldn't go to a massage therapist who's never had a massage. So if we are not taking advantage, if we're not using the, the skills that we have by going and seeing our own therapist. That's a. It's a real missed opportunity and I think that's important for for again, for any therapist, but also therapist who are the caregiver, the challenge.

Speaker 3 15:29

I can hear people out there listening to this saying when am I going to find the time? And that's really when we need to look at the next level. So systems and communities that can help provide support. Of those one third of Americans who provide caregiving in their home, a lot of them are doing it alone or with a very, very small support group. Each state has different options for financial support and all of them are lacking. I feel like that's probably fairly safe to say so. Turning to family and friends, I think is actually really important.

Speaker 3 16:03

Most of us who are caregivers don't really talk about it. The people in our lives don't get the full picture because often we are worried oh, I don't want to be a complainer or they're tired of hearing me talk about this thing, and so we communicate, either intentionally or unintentionally, that this is not an okay thing for us to talk about. I need to keep this again to myself. This is all on me. So if the um, if there's an accepting and caring community that can allow the caregiver to open up and say these are the things that I need.

Speaker 3 16:35

It's, it's a really funny. We have this saying. It's so like the idea is so common, so pervasive that there's an idiom for it. Um, that kind of has lost all meaning. But it takes a village. For some reason, there's an age at which we say, oh, it doesn't take a village anymore, like that's, it's, it's all on the one person or on the two people, or you know, whatever the amount of caregivers is. And that's obviously not the case. It takes a whole village over the entire lifespan. That's two. And then, of course, being a social worker, I very, very much am in favor of the macro approach, reaching out to your representatives and saying this is the kind of support that is needed. I have been in contact with my representatives. My son has actually been on the wait list for services for over 11 years now.

Speaker 1 17:22

Wow, the longest anyone.

Speaker 3 17:25

it's ridiculous. The longest anyone in this state this is Utah, where I'm talking from has been on that wait list is 30 years. 30 years to get services. It's an incredible amount of time. I'm hoping that they will increase services, increase funding for the services, but it takes a lot of people. One voice is very rarely the turning point, so it's important for us to join up together as professional caregivers and then as family caregivers.

Speaker 1 17:52

Yeah, no, absolutely, and I do love that. Yes, I think that that seems to run around a lot Like it takes it takes a village, and you usually hear that around births of babies, right Like when like all hands on deck and you'll get casseroles and people will drop, you know, diapers at your door, do you think? Do you think it's shifted at all since COVID and the pandemic, where it's been a lot less of community support and a lot more individual support, or are you seeing something different?

Breaking Stigmas in Mental Health

Speaker 3 18:26

I'm not sure that I've seen a change from COVID, but since COVID has ended even though there's a current surge right now, since the you know, the isolation portion of COVID has ended it does seem to be like, generally, like we're all kind of in our own boats, like we're all siloed, when realistically, you know again, this is maybe a trite saying, but we're all in this together, and there is a quote that I actually really love it's we all owe each other a great debt, and I think that one of the challenges is I don't know, like you know for you two, I don't know what you two need. We haven't talked about that and in some ways, you don't know, like you know for you two. I don't know what you two need, we haven't talked about that and in some ways, you don't know what I need. So I'm normalizing the conversation and saying you know what? Actually I need a night off, or I need two hours so that I can, like walk through a park or be in a museum or get a massage.

Speaker 3 19:23

If that's what you want to do, right, having a conversation and saying, really realistically, I am reaching the point where I can't do this anymore. I need some support. I think that's actually very important 18 years. Sorry, didn't mean to cut you off, go ahead.

Speaker 2 19:39

No, I'm so sorry for even like interrupting you, but I was like, can we pause? I love that you're naming that Because I think that, as therapists, we got this idea that we have to do it all, we have to be available. When you're talking, even about these macro approach, like we have to reach out. There's still a stigma when it comes to when you're a caretaker, and there's even more of a stigma when you are providing a service such as mental health, because how can you need this, how you're not accessing this. And even when you said, right, like I don't know what you two need, I was like you're absolutely right. There's very few of us who feel comfortable sending a text and saying this is what is happening, this is what I need, because there's a stigma as a mental health therapist for needing help.

Speaker 1 20:29

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 20:31

Yeah, I've had clients tell me before like oh.

Speaker 3 20:34

I wish I was like you and I had it all figured out. And you know, it kind of makes me want to laugh because I'm like maybe I should stop wearing collars, like I don't know what it is that makes people think that I've got it all together, because I certainly don't. And one of the things that was, for me personally, so freeing was I was at a big public event with my kids and my older son was having a very difficult time, had a very loud reaction that got a lot of attention, and one of my neighbors just happened to be there, happened to see it, oh, and we walked to this event. So we had to walk home while we're planning on my part. So we get home and like I was trying to help him regulate and come back to his homeostasis and I got a text from that friend and he's like hey, that looked really rough, are you okay? Can I come and help out? And my very first response was no, I've got this, you don't need to be part of this.

Speaker 3 21:23

But then, as I, as I thought about it more, I was like this is one of the few offers of support that I've had and I want to make sure that this person knows that I appreciate it. There wasn't much for him to do in that point. But, um, later on, actually, he's like I want, I want to take you skiing. I'm not a skier, by the way, I don't want to present myself as a skier, Um, but we went skiing, we went night and we were on the lift going up and it's dark, it's freezing and I'm just kind of waiting to get off of this lift so I can move and warm up again.

Speaker 3 21:53

But he got really real with me and was talking about like hey, I saw this thing happen and I don't want to pretend that I missed it. What was that like for you? What do you need? And we started getting very real about it and I looked over at him and I realized he was crying and I was crying Just these two dudes on this night ski lift crying in the dark. I was like this is the most unreal experience I've ever had. But the weird thing about it was it was the most real experience I'd had with another male in years and years.

Speaker 1 22:20

Yeah, what a connection.

Speaker 2 22:22

What a connection so let me come back, because that's not the message that we're hearing from our associations, when they keep telling us you have to be professional all the time, right? So I'm wondering out loud if they hear this podcast. I doubt it. If they hear this podcast, are they gonna be curious about how they are presenting themselves? What is it that they're asking of us? And when they tell us you have to be professional all the time, what is it that they're projecting and what is it that we're capturing and personalizing?

Speaker 1 22:56

Yeah, absolutely yeah. And being a professional does not mean that we're blank slates and none of us none of us here are claiming to be perfect or have had it all figured out. I mean, if we did, then we would have shared the secret sauce with everybody. Right? I used to say early in my career my hope is to one day work myself out of a job. Right, like if I actually had the book of answers, I would give it freely and then not have work myself because everyone would have access to it. But I think it's really important that we're trying to break down these stigmas and we're replacing it with authenticity and honesty.

Speaker 1 23:31

And that's ugly and messy at times, right, it's not. You know, the default answer is to in that moment and prolong your energy span. Right, like I think of the spoons model for my own chronic illness talk, right, like I talk in spoons. I don't have spoons for that, but if someone else is lending spoons, even if you have spoons left, like that just allows you to do so much more, hopefully for yourself in that moment too. Right, because my experience I'll just talk about my own is that my spoons are all gone for everybody else. Right, and so when it does come to like my own self-care and it's like, well, I'm already so spent, I'm already done, I don't have anything left. So, being able to borrow or have someone step in and just offer a little bit of support, maybe I do have a spoon or two to do my own self-care.

Speaker 3 24:39

So both great points, I think. For the point about professionalism, I think I would just want to trouble. What does that mean to be professional? We're living in this time period where AI is becoming more and more powerful and I don't think we're more than five years away from someone creating an AI therapy app. Oh, for sure, for sure. The thing is. Being a professional means being like human in the office, but also being able to allow, like I still can be a person and have my attention on you. I can still support you on like being a real person. We don't want to become robots. We don't want to become AI therapy bots. What we want to be is real people in the room who have learned the theory and mastered the technique and have learned how to touch another soul. That's, that is the role that we have as professionals. And, as far as the spoons go, I don't know if you two are you two fans of Urban Yalom.

Speaker 2 25:33

Oh, yes, but I was like hold on, hold on. I love this. I don't want to go on in regards, because you were talking about profession. You're absolutely right and I hope for everyone who's listening, let's make sure that jared uh runs for a position where he can go and change quality. Um, because how beautiful it will be for you to talk to all of us in the mental health field.

Speaker 2 25:55

In regards to, you are human and you hold multiple entities, and professionalism doesn't mean that you have to suck it up and be fake Like you have to present yourself this way all the time, which is the message that we've been getting. Let's also be real on that. So I love what you're proposing for all our listeners in regards to can you be human Doesn't mean that you have to be unethical. It doesn't mean that their therapy is gonna become your therapy, but it does mean that you get to be human and you get to share those pieces of you in that shared experience to help clients and systems remove the stigma. What you're proposing today, because then client and caretakers also learn that you are human. You have different capacity, different spoons, using maria's analogy and you get to ask for help when help is offering to you yeah, I love that you can't be a therapist without being human, so absolutely we need to de-stigmatize being human.

Speaker 3 27:08

Um, it makes no sense to for us to imagine. The worst part of being ourselves is being ourselves, and it is okay to be real, and in fact it's necessary yeah, that's beautiful, jared.

Speaker 2 27:21

And again, thank you for naming all of this. I really it. If you ever want to run for a position in a board, let us know. We will support you, man.

Speaker 3 27:30

I appreciate it and it's unlikely, but I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 27:36

I love your boundaries. Yes, I love your boundaries.

Speaker 3 27:41

I know what else I can take on, and that's not it. I want to go back to the spoons really quickly, because there's this great story from one of Irvin Yalom's books I don't remember which one it is, but maybe you two remember but he was doing it was his first group for people who had a terminal illness and his co-facilitator was not a therapist but a woman who had a terminal illness and she started off the group with the story about a person who dies. And they go to heaven and there's all these people seated around these large tables, wonderful smelling food and everything looks beautiful, but the spoons are too long for them to be able to reach into the soup and feed themselves, and so they're all feeding each other and he's like well, now let me show you hell. So he takes her to hell. And it's the same exact scene. Everything is the same, everything smells the same, only no one is feeding each other.

Speaker 3 28:33

And the person's a little bit confused and he's like I don't understand what the difference is. And he said in heaven everyone helps each other, and that is really the kind of community that we need to help, because burnout cannot be changed by going to the beach, getting a massage, taking time in a museum all of those things. We actually can only reduce burnout by decreasing the stress on the person and increasing their ability to manage the stress that they have. So we can't get rid of burnout by maintaining the status quo in the stressors. We have to have people who can come in and help take care of some of that for us.

Speaker 1 29:08

Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of the self-care that's touted out there are band-aids when we are looking at a gushing wound that actually needs to be addressed. So, absolutely, I think we can't talk about burnout without talking about system changes, whether that's family system, community system and the larger systems at large. But I think it is also just really important to be like and it's gonna happen right Like burnout is going to be kind of a natural thing that we are having to assess for and work against. But no one is immune at this, especially those of us that are doing caregiving in multiple roles.

Speaker 3 29:49

Yeah, yeah, none of us are perfect at anything that we do, and our energy levels change and vary over like lifetime and even over days, right.

Speaker 3 30:01

And so the strategy that we think works at one point may not work in the future, and so we will continue to do the same things that we've always done and then suddenly realize we have a very different result because some variable has changed.

Speaker 3 30:13

And so we have to realize that burnout is a very real potential and unless we're paying attention to it, unless we're really addressing it, it can be a career ender or it can be a relationship destroyer, and obviously we don't want those things to happen. We all want to have like some longevity in our career. We all worked really hard to get our licenses. We don't want to just give them up because, you know, we got tired of doing this or because we didn't take the time to take care of ourselves. I think for a lot of caregivers they would say the burden is not so much the caregiving. The burden is interacting with the systems that don't support me or the person I'm caregiving. The burden is interacting with the systems that don't support me or the person I'm caregiving, and that's really challenging. So those are some of the factors that I think have to change if we're going to see a change in burnout.

Speaker 1 30:58

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think it starts with, like our own awareness. Right, we need to be able to acknowledge that that's what's going on for us and getting support around those systems that are in place currently until we can, you know, go all anarchy and like upturn the systems and make them actually function for the people who need them.

Speaker 2 31:19

This is beautiful. I really love that because I truly believe that we chose to go to this field and become mental health therapists because we wanted to give back. We all have a story to tell and why we chose to do this, but also the idea that when we're talking about caretaking, is not the caretaking, is the systems, that gets us to that point of burnout. That gets us to the point of burnout, and I was just thinking, because I'm the author of the book the Colonizing Therapy. She talks about this issue in regards to burnout and how systems were set up to use, not to assist, not to take care of, and I think this is where it comes handy of what we can do and how we're going to start having conversations like this one to become aware of how the systems are not working, how the systems were actually not set up to help us.

Speaker 1 32:23

We have a fantasy about systems. Yeah, I mean, if we've got a system that made someone wait 30 years to access services, that's not okay, that's not. 10 years is not okay, right, like we've missed so much of their life and their development and the people caring for them have gone without for so long, that that's not okay. That system clearly is not working.

Supporting Caregivers Through Systemic Challenges

Speaker 2 32:44

And then when you take that role right, thinking of you, jared, like taking care of of, of your significant other, your family, and then that's something that it takes it it. It is like taking it for granted, like no one gives you or helps you with that. There's no financial assistance with that. So a lot of the times most of us is like either we go to work or we take care of someone, and if we take care of someone, how we're going to get the money, like the financial stress that comes into play, or when we have to wait for a system for you know, over 10 years, 30 years, because there's financial barriers here. Like how is that? The systems are okay with that? And knowing what we know either if you're a social worker, mft, play therapist, it doesn't matter and then knowing what we know is also really tiring, knowing that the systems were not there to actually help individuals.

Speaker 3 33:39

I think the challenges for institutions, the status quo very rarely is evaluated. So the system gets set up I'm going to assume really great intent. The system gets set up to make sure that the people get the services, but then barriers come up along the way and that becomes the status quo and there's nothing we can do about it because that's the way it's always been done. And that is a real challenge. And I think one other challenge, by the way, for the caregiver themselves is this internalized shame message right, we have a limited amount of time, a limited amount of money. I am doing okay. It's not okay for me to take from that pool because it has to go to the other person. That is a huge amount of responsibility to take and unfortunately it misses the fact that the person you're taking care of may only be as well off as you are. If you are struggling with your own mental health, the person you're taking care of is not getting the best care from you and not doing the best that they could be doing.

Speaker 1 34:40

Thank you for saying that out loud. Thank you for saying that out loud, you know, because I know, and I know we're all tired of the airplane and the oxygen mask metaphor, right, but there's, there's a lot of truth that you cannot give from an empty cup, no matter how well our intentions are, um. And so if we are, you know, I, you know worst case scenario, we're being negligent about how bad off we are and still thinking that we're pouring into, um, the people that we're taking care of, and we're not, we're not. And so I think it goes back to that first step of being aware and then having a community that you can go to and say, like I am not my best self right now and this is what I need. And if you don't have that support, how necessary that is. And finding that can be hard, right, like we always joke that, like making adults as friends is hard, yeah, and it's so necessary because if we are left to do this on our own, we cannot. We cannot do it all, yeah.

Speaker 2 35:43

Attachment perspective. Right, I was just thinking of that from an attachment perspective. From an attachment perspective right, I was just thinking of that from an attachment perspective. And even as the two were talking, I was like, okay, because there's actually proof that newcomers when they come into other countries and they have the caretaking role and then they're like you should go to therapy. There's also of I was forced to migrate and now being imposed that I have to do this and now you're stigmatizing me because I need access to this. So there's a double whammy there for most of the newcomers because of this issue. So this is not to take or highlight, because I hate that in social media is like this person needs more help today. This person, like, is exhausting.

Speaker 2 36:33

We all need help. Do not use the line of all lives matter, please don't. And can you be aware of what are the needs, what are the struggles? Where is the stigma, how systems are supporting the individual? And then, culturally, is it okay to ask for help?

Speaker 3 36:57

And I think culturally, absolutely, we also want to make sure we as caregivers I don't know who all is going to hear this, but I think we as caregivers need to make sure we are assessing that If you've got a client that's seeing you because they're a caregiver, you know that might be forefront in your mind, but if you're seeing them for something else, it may not. I have, in the 18 years that I've been my son's father, not once been asked by my primary care physician how the stress is impacting me. Never. We've talked about all sorts of other things but he's never once asked me have you noticed anything or do you need any supports? That you're not getting?

Speaker 3 37:33

None of those conversations come up and I think we need to normalize those questions because if they don't get asked, the person probably has this idea, this internalized shame message that I can't ask for help. But if we give permission, if we normalize and say, hey, this is actually a very difficult situation, it would be pretty understandable if you needed some support. If you don't need support, that's great, but if you do, I'm here to help. That could be a very easy opening for people to be able to begin that request for support.

Speaker 1 38:05

Right, I like that, I like that. And Amy, I'm just thinking about you know, Liliana's and I, our medical frequencies. I noticed especially post-pandemic right when they bring you in, I always get you know. They do a GAD-7 on me, they ask about depressive and then they ask if I'm safe at home, right, Like, how nice and easy would it be to add in also, like I see the situation that you're in, Do you feel like you have the support that you need or is there something else that maybe I can help connect you with? Yeah, what a big shift that would make.

Speaker 3 38:40

Yeah, I love the concept of having social workers in the medical office. One of my friends actually does that. Her role is to meet with people before they meet with the doctor, just to see if they need any social supports. She works in an OBGYN's office, so a lot of what she's talking about is perinatal mood disorder, but she's there for whatever social work supports they may need. Not enough of that yet, but I think that is potentially where we might see our medical model going.

Speaker 2 39:06

But I think that is potentially where we might see our medical model going. Oh my God, I feel like we can go on and on and on. So, as I'm keeping track of time, what would be because there's so many nuggets, jared, that you were like, honestly, my brain is just there's so many like fireworks going on because I'm thinking of so many things right now, but what would be one nugget that you want our listeners to take from everything that you have shared?

Speaker 3 39:32

So any listeners out there and identifying with what we're talking about today, what I'm hoping that they'll do first and foremost is give themselves permission to need, because they have the need, and we often will like bury it or pretend that it's not there, but the problem is that need comes back with interest at some point. So give yourself permission to have the need.

Speaker 2 39:56

For all of you who are not seeing us. This is beautiful and I'm laughing because I was like man. The interest that I'm paying right now, the interest rate that I'm paying right now, is like, really, really high.

Speaker 1 40:07

Absolutely. I love being able to just normalize this conversation, encouraging caregivers to screen themselves and, as clinicians, offering caregivers that we are seeing the opportunity to screen themselves for burnout, and open the conversation about like, realistically, like, let's respond to how are you and what do you need with real authenticity, rather than you know, sunshine and rainbows.

Speaker 3 40:35

Yeah, let's get rid of the fine as a response.

Speaker 2 40:38

Let's get rid of the fine. Let's give yourself permission to ask for help, do the screening and if you ask me if I'm okay as you keep walking, don't even ask me. Just keep walking, because obviously you're not interested and that's the thing that I'm getting a lot. And so let that question not be automatic in order for us to have those short conversations. What Jared is inviting us to do is let's reflect, let's ask for what we need and let's create spaces where asking is welcome and we get the human to be next to us. I will forever have that image of your neighbor sitting next to you and actually seeing you and listening to you and connecting with you. That is what we need as humans.

Speaker 1 41:31

I'll hold that forever too. Beautiful Jared. Thank you, oh my gosh. Yes, I mean we could easily go on for another hour, another hour. This is such an important topic and I don't think enough people are talking about it yet. So I really appreciate you kind of opening the door for many of our listeners. I'm sure this is going to be the first time that they've actually sat down to consider it, because we'll say it but like actually sit with it.

Speaker 3 41:58

Well, thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed this conversation immensely.

Speaker 2 42:01

So, for all of you who are listening to this episode, just know that we will include Jared's information so that you can call him for consultation. He's open. He's a great presenter too, so hire him for these presentations. So we will include that. Please reach out to him, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 42:22

Absolutely. Thank you, Jared. Until next time, guys. Thanks.

Speaker 3 42:26

Thank you.