A Hero's Welcome Podcast

Navigating Neurodiversity in Mental Health with Dr. Robert Jason Grant

• Maria Laquerre-Diego, LMFT-S, RPT-S & Liliana Baylon, LMFT-S, RPT-S • Season 2

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What happens when the professional world of mental health meets the personal journey of neurodivergence? Join us as we sit down with Dr. Robert Jason Grant, who shares his profound experience of being diagnosed with sensory processing disorder as an adult. Dr. Grant opens up about the internalized ableism he faced and the role the autistic community played in his journey towards acceptance. We explore the often conditional acceptance of diversity in professional settings and the pressures neurodivergent professionals experience to conceal parts of their identity. This episode shines a light on the intricate dance between personal identity and professional life, challenging common misconceptions and advocating for a more inclusive environment.

Creating a supportive community is not just beneficial—it's essential. Dr. Grant and I discuss the importance of authentic allies in neurodiversity advocacy and the impact of sharing resources and experiences among neurodivergent professionals. We also dive into the urgent need for self-care to be integrated into professional licensing, drawing comparisons between U.S. and European workplace policies that either support or hinder well-being. This conversation is a call to action for ongoing advocacy and education to ensure that self-care and neurodiversity are prioritized. Tune in for valuable insights and encouragement as we navigate these pressing issues together.

A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Maria Diego:

Welcome listeners to another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, mariela Caradiego, and today I am joined by my lovely co-host. That's me?

Liliana Baylon:

I think that's me. We are here with a special guest. So before we start and I introduce you, we were started by saying how this idea of the podcast actually surfaced when we were in a table in community with him. So, Robert, how would you like to introduce yourself to all our listeners?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I'll just introduce myself as Dr Robert Jason Grant to the listeners. And, yeah, to the listeners. And yeah, almost a year ago, right, we were at this business of therapy training, sitting at the same table. Yeah, and this idea manifested for you all. Yeah, and look what you've done with it. Congratulations, so cool I was waiting.

Liliana Baylon:

everyone who's listening. I I was waiting for Robert to say like they will not shut up, they will not, but thank you so kind. Yes.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I think that's awesome and I'm glad to be here. Happy to be here.

Liliana Baylon:

Thank you, I'm going to say, robert, and then there's like this internal dialogue that is happening in my mind.

Maria Diego:

Should I say Dr Robert, all the time?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

should I say no, no, you could just say Robert's fine, thank you, thank you. People call me all kinds of things. They call me Robert, some people call me Jason. Oh, they just go there, which is totally okay. I've even some people just go with uh initials. They'll just call me RJG and some people call me Dr Grant. But my brain answers to all of these things equally.

Liliana Baylon:

For everyone who's listening. He's a doctor, Give him the credit. Okay, he wins.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Oh, I don't need the credit, it's okay.

Liliana Baylon:

So what are we going to talk about today, Robert?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

A great topic Really. We're going to talk about neurodivergence, but specifically being neurodivergent as a professional, especially in our field, in our work as mental health professionals. But, um, that presentation I guess, if you will, I'm a mental health professional or you know other helping professionals. This would apply to as well, and I'm also neurodivergent myself, what that means and what that can look like. You know the benefits, the cool things about it. Maybe some of the challenges may come along with that as well.

Maria Diego:

Yeah, I love that. I think in just my own experience with you, like you're known in the play therapy, realm right For neurodivergence and trainings and education and being such a resource for that. But I think this is a really important conversation to have, as we are either late in life finding out or late in life accepting and owning that part of our identity, and I still feel like it's that kind of tricky line that we walk right Of like I'm a professional in a helping field and also these parts of me are true too, because I think there's still a stigma around a diagnosis as a professional.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Yeah, I think you're right. I think when you are at my age which I won't reveal then you're definitely probably late diagnosed like I was as an adult, because the processes when I was a kid were pretty abysmal in terms and so I didn't really understand me until I was an adult and didn't get a official formal diagnosis that put me in a neurodivergent category until I was an adult. And so so much of this work for me started then and I remember when I got I have sensory processing disorder plus a few other um, oddity things in the neurodivergent world, but that's probably the main one I identify with. And I remember when I got that diagnosis as an adult, I didn't tell anybody, I didn't put that in my bio, I didn't advertise that, I didn't even tell family members because there was still sort of this kind of shame associated with it. It was a little bit of internalized ableism, like I should keep this to myself, and I think it was a mix of those beliefs you know that I had taken on myself and then also like, if I say this, will people you know treat me differently? Will they treat me even like I'm more weird than I already am, but not in a good, weird way.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

So it was really when let's give credit to the actual autistics who really brought neurodiversity to the forefront, and when I started discovering that, talking about that, that I started working on this within myself to get to a place where it's like, yeah, I mean, I, this is my identity and I want to live this identity. And it was really listening to so many of them, watching, watching them, talking to them, reading their works that really helped me get to this place where I could finally I remember the first time I just even put that I'm neurodivergent on my bio felt so strange but so happy at the same time. So, yeah, there's definitely this historic context, but then we still like you mentioned Maria still today. You know, even though we're so much stronger as a community, we can still run into ableism or discrimination or just some kind of weirdness that somebody else puts on us because, you know, we are putting our identity out there.

Liliana Baylon:

Yeah, I love that Right, and even um. I just heard Marshall. Marshall always talks about um and and he was in an early podcast with us. But he was talking about, like the parts that we hide because they're not welcome. Or coming from a generation that told us we have to hide those parts because they were not welcome. And even as you were talking, I keep thinking and they're still not welcome. They're welcome at a convenience, they're welcome at a price. If I can use you, convenience, they're welcome at a price. If I can use you, then I welcome you.

Liliana Baylon:

It sounds so dark when I say it out loud and I give myself permission to be okay with this but yes but it is true is if, if there's a benefit of me, um able body to use you, I welcome you and embrace you. But if they're not, then there's shame that comes with, because how come you cannot behave, how come you cannot do this Like in that stereotypical able? And I think the scary part for all of us in this field is that we have the tools to help our clients but we're very judgmental with each other. Is that okay that I name that?

Maria Diego:

I think it's authentic, lilian, I think that's been. I think it's. I think it's authentic, lillian, I think that that's been your experience too, in circles. I mean, we've, we've shared similar experiences in similar circles. You know, a couple of things came up when you were talking to Robert, and you know one was this reminds me back when you know we, we weren't allowed to be open about having our own mental illness or being on medications right for ADHD, depression, anxiety, postpartum, whatever. This feels similar, in line, and it also seems very much in line with the conversation around dynamic disabilities and invisible illnesses, specifically in play therapy feeling as though if you can't physically get on the floor, then you can't be a play therapist. And I'm wondering if you're seeing any similarities in our profession around being a neurodiverse provider.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you both were sharing what you said, I thought, well, this is diversity work in general, right, you always have this awareness that comes to the forefront, which is necessary. And then you always have the group. Well, you have the group that deny it, regardless, they're not interested. You know they're always going to be the haters, regardless, they're not interested. You know they're always going to be the haters. But then you have this group that takes it on as a performative act, which is kind of what Liliana was talking about. And then you have the group that actually, like, cares about diversity and seeks it out because they value and it's not just for a performative piece.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Yeah, so you always kind of run into these three groups, right, when you're putting yourself out there in any form or type of diversity, and you're, I guess, as prepared as you can be to experience these three types of people as you run into them. And I'm not sure how better that's going to get, you know, in society, it seems like I would like to believe that it's going to get better, but then, but it's not gotten better in thousands of years. So, you know, you just kind of always have this manifestation. But the good thing is focusing on the people who get it and not focusing on the other groups. Right, that's the part that keeps us encouraged and keeps us believing.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Okay, this is so worthwhile. Even though we encounter this ableism or this performative person, we know there are authentic people out there that are really transformed and really value what we're bringing. And understanding neurodivergence and caring about it is just like what happened to me is you are speaking to another neurodivergent person who is yet to really fully realize that about themselves and you're helping open that door for them, and I think that is huge yeah, yeah, I think so too.

Maria Diego:

I think you know it goes along with that marginalized you know population um experience right, with that marginalized population experience right, that it can be difficult but it takes just a few really brave, really thick skinned, with good support people to stand there and go like this is this is OK. You, you can be both. To let other people having that shared experience go oh, maybe I can do both.

Maria Diego:

To let other people having that shared experience go oh, maybe I can do both you know I don't have to be alone in this, because it can feel very alone, especially if you're surrounded by the other groups of people, the performative or or the, the haired, and just being able to find someone else as an example, as like that beacon of hope and light, can be really, really really important.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Yeah, I would say, you know, on this topic, it probably is very helpful for most neurodivergent professionals to find community with other neurodivergent professionals. You know people you know maybe in person it could be colleagues, it could be an online group or groups but just to get community with others that are kind of in the same position as you, because I think that makes a huge difference, because you are going to encounter things that are not positive. You're going to run into this and it helps you to navigate those things. It certainly has me when you do have a good community of fellow neurodivergent professionals that you talk with, interact with, hang out with, do life with, yeah, yeah.

Maria Diego:

I love that Because I think it's important to share what's worked right, share those resources, share those support people. You know, I'm just even thinking back to Liliana and I like, when we started sharing our own you know chronic illness and invisible illnesses, it was like, hey, did you, do you know about this particular heating pad? Did you know that I have one that sits in my suitcase and it always travels with me? Right, just like those helpful hints, or like, hey, I was also in that situation. This person at this place was really helpful in helping me navigate that system.

Liliana Baylon:

And so.

Maria Diego:

I'm hearing some similarities with that and having that community can be really helpful because we are working in larger systems with overseeing governing bodies that don't always make it easy for us to navigate when we are other abled yes, yeah, and the benefits are pretty numerous.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I mean there's also just the friendship and the relationship and the fun. For me, there is just a level of natural unmasking that can take place when I'm with a fellow neurodivergent friend or colleague. That's really nice. I certainly have neurotypical friends and I have some neurotypical friends I can be pretty much myself with, which is great. But there is a level of understanding you know.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Know, when you're with someone who has just dealt with a lot of the same things that you have and navigated life this kind of same way that you have, that's just really you need to have that in there somewhere in the mix of your community, because it's a different level and it's an important level and I think it's part of what helps keep you going. When you are in those days or moments where everything is heightened because you're neurodivergent and you really are feeling how the systems aren't designed for you and you've really encountered that ableist behavior from someone, it just you gotta be able to go to those people who are like I've been there, I get it, I've lived it, I feel it with you and that's just a special place to have.

Liliana Baylon:

So, as all of you are preparing I'm assuming I'm making the assumption, for a lot of you are preparing to go to conferences and the Play Therapy Conference is coming up right, which is, find your people to help you regularly co-regulate give me so much anxiety. There's so so much stimulation, so much stimulation, and you are required to participate in order to be part of and not have, like you know, missing out syndrome and to be seen, because you also go to network and what we're suggesting here is look, you are in your own process, you get to explore and grieve and accept until you become who you want to be, how you want to show up and what parts you're accepting. That's part of the grief process for all of us. And then finding what Robert's using is finding your own people to build community, even when we go to those events, so that they can help you co-regulate, help you name a lot of the times what is happening for you, help you co-regulate, help you name a lot of the times what is happening for you, help you advocate for change.

Liliana Baylon:

When you two were talking, I was listening to a book author, because I'm a bookworm, so I like to go to not only read but, like I follow them. That sounds like stalking, but I go to a fence where they're presenting their material.

Liliana Baylon:

I'm a fangirl and it's okay, but he was saying that he was hopeful for the new generation and that brought me hope. So I want to name that, he says, the new generation. We tend to dismiss them because they're bringing all these new ideas and acceptance and it's us adults who are rejecting it because we are regressing to old patterns of systems of expectations. So he said we have to be patient because it's this new cohort who's going to come and change things Right, and that gave me hope.

Liliana Baylon:

That not just the idea from, like the queer community who came and introduced us to pronouns, I get to ask you, from, uh, diversity, from an ethnicity, uh point of view, which is saying we are here, um, and we don't want to deny this part anymore, yeah, um, the neurodiversity, which is like I went too fast and with my accent, I was like, oh, got it. But the version of the community which is also saying we are here and these are the things that we need and we need that Right. So what is it that we need to do as presenters to be in community with the participants who are taking in? How are we informing them and empowering them to advocate for themselves? And then, when we have privileges, which the three of us have. How are we advocating for these changes in the system that we are in Right Like? What else can we do to help the new cohort that is coming in not have a hard time like we did?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

yeah, I mean, that's what we would hope for, right, that it keeps growing and it keeps getting better, yeah, and it keeps going the right direction. And I think for neurodivergent people, there's always, there's always this place of strong awareness of yourself in terms of your system, like I think you guys have talked about this before because it was created by a person with chronic illness. But spirit theory, you know and like. So how much you know, how can I give in this moment, in this space, and how many spoons do I have? And that's something that neurodivergent people really have to be aware of, because our system can get bombarded and just turn us into a place where we're in a type of burnout but we really cannot manifest, even though our cognitive brain, our intellect, says we know we should be doing this, we cannot actually do it. And I think about that.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I was just in a conversation with somebody about this, about advocacy, because advocacy takes a lot of spoons, and so I am always in this place of trying to figure out you know where and how, when, balancing it, with not bottoming myself out right with the spoons and I think, sometimes the relentless and repetitive like I have said, the same thing in the same way, maybe even to the same group of people or the same system. And I mean I just my spoons are gone just from sometimes that process and trying to advocate for change, but I'm not going to stop. It's just, you know, it's an awareness and I say that to not just myself but anybody listening who's neurodivergent, who's trying to maybe move forward in educating people, increasing awareness, increasing acceptance that don't forget to take care of yourself, because that's a real part of this and you don't want to get to a place where Now you can't do anything and it can happen easily.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

The Adult world, some More autonomy, which is nice, I always think about her or neuro neural divergent kids, who really rarely get any autonomy and are just put into environments where their system is bombarded in a non-friendly way in terms of their neural divergence and how hard it is. That's why so many of them get dysregulated. That's why you do that, because know they can only take so much and the system can take so much, and it's just a reality for us as neurodivergent people until we get systems, especially big systems, that we can walk into and it's like, wow, this isn't taking anything from me, you know, I can just kind of be here. We're not there yet, and so it is important for you know neurodiversity, affirming care for you yourself, the neurodivergent person, would be to recognize that and what it looks like for you. Do what you can. Don't feel bad about what you can't do, right, because you're in the long race here, not the short sprint. Right, we need you in the game for the next several years, not just this month or this week.

Maria Diego:

No, I love that, I do, and you know I. I think you know something that Lilliana and I have talked about a couple of times with some of our guests is just this disconnect. You know, we're in a field where, like, all parts are welcome. We're in a field of like, you know, set those boundaries for yourself, and then then there's this disconnect for us doing that for our clients, then to professional regulatory boards and organizations doing that for us professionals. We don't get that same reciprocity, leaving us in this weird limbo system, right when we're pouring out our cup but our cup's not being refilled by those, by those other systems. Would you say that you're also seeing that?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I've always saw that and I've always thought that we were way too medical model focused. I think even then, I think even doc, I think people in the medical field are too medical model focused.

Maria Diego:

Yes, and.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I've always had this thought in my head. That pops up especially when I'm renewing a license or something. There's a requirement for an ethics class, there's a requirement for a suicide course, which are all very important. Absolutely I don't mind that. But I always think, you know, one day, one day I'm'm gonna be very happy because I'm gonna see there's a requirement for a self-care course. That just what you were saying, that the organization, the board, has put out we recognize it's important that you're taking care of yourself, and just by even requiring a training to redo is communicating that message.

Liliana Baylon:

maybe, maybe we'll see that one day we will copy our friends in europe like we have this right, but in europe, think about how many countries. They said after five you will no longer be, uh, contacting um your employees and if you do, we're gonna find you and we're gonna give you this time off because you are required to go and recharge and in that time, yes you will not check email from work like it's policies that they have yes, and I'm like please, same as everyone else, I have considered moving again.

Liliana Baylon:

That is healthy versus me, that I'm in a power of a space of supervising others. I'm realizing that they're working in systems where there are being abused. If you're working towards licensure, they dictate how many clients, they dictate your time off, they tell you when to answer the phone, they tell you those are the things and I'm like this is not okay. And then we also move into the idea of when. When we say like self-care, I was like what does that mean? Cause in Colorado we do have to fill up a form for self-care.

Liliana Baylon:

I mean, it looks so nice.

Maria Diego:

Oh, I did not know this do I follow it right, but at least the system is saying we want you to be aware of that, which is a step forward. I mean, new mexico certainly does not have that. My other credentialing boards don't have that as a requirement. Hold on.

Liliana Baylon:

But even when you said ethics and I was like, okay, I'll bite. What kind of ethics? Because ethics is such a big word everyone used. And I was like, well, is it clinical ethics? Is it self-care ethics? Is it private practice ethics? Is it diversity? Like what kind of ethics? So now, when anyone calls me and says, can you do ethics, I'll be like what kind of you're?

Maria Diego:

so limited to? Yeah, well, I will. I will say I mean, I know, I know some regulatory boards that we are all a part of, right, like neurodiversity is considered like it does complete like the cultural subset of requirements, so that's, I feel like a step in the right direction. Then they put us all in one bucket. They do, they do. But I'm thinking like, so it's, it's fall when we're recording this. Okay, we're getting ready to go. Um, take my kids to the little pumpkin patch corn maze thing that happens in our town. They will provide, if you need it, this and, like Meow Wolf up in Albuquerque, they have like a sensory bag that you can borrow, that has like fidgets and earplugs and like dark sunglasses that you can borrow for your experience there to help. It's just an offering, right to help regulate and acknowledge that you may have a different need. What's it going to take for us to get that at professional conferences?

Liliana Baylon:

And.

Liliana Baylon:

I was like am I going to get headphones? Because for me sound, by the way, it's just too much for me. I get so dysregulated. Um, and it will be lovely, right? I just want you to know. Uh, robert and maria in here, like my kids, not only they play soccer, but we are season holders. Do not call me up for tickets, we're season holders for the rapids. They actually have an area um for um, if you have sensory issues, like to go in there. But guess what's happening now? Kids are going in and playing there, so I cannot use. Yes, the public is not educated in regards to who needs it. Um, so there's more entities trying to do good things. It's also being misused because there's not a lot of education for the public, but conferences, mental health conferences. For me, it's like how come you're not thinking of this?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

Yeah, it is interesting to see, like, what the changes in the growth looks like. Right To be around long enough to have a perspective. And I do appreciate all all the things I run into because at least I know like nothing was happening when I was a kid.

Liliana Baylon:

Yeah.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

But I also recognize that some of it isn't quite being done right. And I guess in my head I think of well, you know it's. I said this to Marshall once, marshall Louse, who you referenced earlier. I'm like you know neurodiversity, the paradigm, the movement. It's sort of like if you were in the ocean by the Titanic and if you ever had this experience when you're swimming in water you can't touch the ground. It's sort of like you've got your hands up against the Titanic and you're trying to push it while you're swimming and you're trying to push it while you're swimming. Like it's very challenging to get solid in place, change done, but it does happen.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

It just happens very slowly in terms of, I think, what we want to see, to see, and then it just speaks more to why we're talking about this right now and why we're doing what we're doing, because it's so important that this keeps happening and it keeps being done better, right, and I've seen that grow a lot, but's no way. But I don't want to be satisfied, right, I don't want to be satisfied just with grows or something that's sort of like an approximate of what we're going for. So we keep advocating and working and talking about it, doing what you guys did. I mean, one of the things I loved about your podcast when I went and looked at it, was how much time that you're devoting to diversity needs and I'm like that's great. I mean, we just need more of this because it is so vast and wide, even neural divergence. I mean I couldn't sit here and represent all neural divergence right there's just this, this commitment, the cultural humility philosophy, right.

Maria Diego:

There's just this commitment to never stop learning and I love that because I think that that and reject it Right. That's when we get stuck in these systems that are broken and don't work and it's like, well, it's, it's always been this way or whatever. The old adage is yeah, but I do, I think. I think that's part of the process and and and thank you. I mean that's part and point, like the whole point of this podcast was Liliana and I were like having these conversations with people going. More people need to hear this, more people need to know that they're not alone in this. More people we need. This needs to be a louder conversation, not that we have, you know, a following that's going to, like, you know, march, the Capitol Hill or anything.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

You never know, you never know.

Maria Diego:

We got to start somewhere Right, and so I really I do, I really appreciate that, and I know we're probably getting ready to wrap up because Liliana is making that face at me. So before we, before we walk away, do you have like a top, like tip or like self-care moment for someone who might be listening, going like this this is, this is hard to navigate these systems. Being a neurodivergent provider. You said get a, find a community. What's maybe one other thing that they could do or that you have found helpful?

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I would say you know, seek out, try to create, work toward, put the time into to get autonomy Because I think autonomy is a neurodivergent adult's best friend. And don't feel guilty for that, don't feel like it's frivolous If you don't have it already. Find the places where you can get it, because I think the more autonomy you can have, it just makes it so much easier than to take care of yourself and to be in a good spoon place to be fully activated when you're activated and it just helps you create that kind of balance that you need as you go from day to day, week to week. That's going to be easier or harder for different people.

Dr. Robert J. Grant:

I think your task is just to find what you can right now in terms of really striving for. Where can I and how can I become more autonomous? And remember the value you bring. You know there is a benefit of being a neurodivergent mental health professional in working with neurodivergent clients. There's a value there. We have people call our clinic all the time seeking a neurodiversity affirming and a fellow neurodivergent therapist, and so also just remember the value that you bring. Yeah.

Liliana Baylon:

Oh, that's beautiful. That's been to all the diversity groups that we're trying to get here right, which is we exist, we exist, we're out there. Come so that you don't have to describe, so that you don't have to explain. So it's a natural conversation, not only because of what we know as professionals, but because of the shared experience.

Maria Diego:

Well, claim our diversity as our superpower right, like that's what I'm hearing from you, is like it can be your superpower If we really learn to understand it and embrace it and lean into it yeah, let's do that yeah absolutely thank you, robert.

Liliana Baylon:

I'm hoping that you come back. I'm hoping that we didn't scare you yeah did you come back and talk more, because we need voices like yours in order to say there, there's so many topics that we can cover and there's space for you as a narrative of what does it mean, and, and, and that you don't have to go hide yes, listen, I'll be happy to come back anytime thank you to our listeners. Uh, we'll see you next time. Till next time, bye, guys.

People on this episode

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Liliana Baylon, LMFT-S, RPT-S

Host
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Maria Laquerre-Diego, LMFT-S, RPT-S

Host
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Dr. Robert Jason Grant

Guest