A Hero's Welcome Podcast
A Hero’s Welcome Podcast
For the therapists doing the hard work and the hearts behind the healing.
Hosted by Maria Laquerre Diego and Liliana Baylon, both LMFT-S and RPT-S, A Hero’s Welcome is a podcast created by and for mental health professionals. We spotlight the work, wisdom, and lived experiences of therapists who show up for others every day, especially those working with children, families, and communities impacted by trauma, migration, and systemic stress.
Each episode features honest conversations with expert clinicians, supervisors, trainers, and consultants. We talk about clinical insights, cultural humility, and what it means to support healing in today’s world. This is your space if you’re a therapist seeking a more profound connection, real-world tools, and community.
Hosts:
Maria Laquerre-Diego
maria@anewhopetc.org
Liliana Baylon
liliana@lilianabaylon.com
A Hero's Welcome Podcast
Unpacking Domestic Violence: Beyond Physical Abuse with Sybil Cummin
Join us for a compelling conversation with Sybil Cummin, a licensed professional counselor whose expertise in domestic violence sheds light on a topic often misunderstood. Sybil takes us beyond the physical aspects of abuse, highlighting the more subtle yet equally damaging forms of control and manipulation that can infiltrate relationships. From financial manipulation to spiritual abuse, Sybil unpacks the various ways one partner can exert power over another, urging us to recognize these signs early on.
We challenge societal stereotypes and cultural misconceptions that simplify domestic abuse to mere physical violence between heterosexual partners. Sybil and I delve into the complexities of how abuse can cross all boundaries of gender and demographics, bringing to light issues like immigration status being used as a tool for control. We also confront the damaging effects of victim blaming, particularly the insidious question of "why didn't you leave?" and explore the ongoing struggles faced by survivors, especially those with children.
For mental health professionals, this episode is a call to action. Sybil stresses the necessity of proper training and preparation when working with victims of domestic violence. We discuss the often-overlooked connection between domestic violence and other mental health issues, drawing parallels with the manipulative tactics of cults. This episode urges therapists to seek additional resources and training, equipping themselves to understand better and address the complexities of domestic violence within the broader context of societal structures.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
Welcome back listeners for another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I am your co-host, maria Laquer-Diego, and I am joined by my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2:I was going to say Sibyl, but no, it's me, Sibyl Baylor. I have not had my coffee before, just bear with me. And we are here with Sibyl. Sibyl, how do you want to introduce yourself to our audience?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's so many ways to do that, so many ways to introduce myself.
Speaker 3:I have elevator pitch. I am a licensed professional counselor, approved clinical supervisor, but I really specialize in working with families where there has been abuse, neglect and domestic violence in the home, and so I run a small group practice in the Denver metro area and I also I host a podcast and have a community specific for this population, and I'm really passionate about teaching other mental health professionals the real like the good, the bad and the ugly of what domestic violence actually looks like, Because when I got started I didn't know, I had no clue what it looked like, and so I want you all out there listening to really understand what it looks like, what to do maybe when the scary comes up for you. This population can be really frustrating to work with as well. So all of those things I want to kind of shout out from the rooftops about.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that, so should we start with. What does it?
Speaker 3:look like, yeah, it can. Right, like when I we talked a little bit offline about this is that when I was in grad school, I had like one class where there was like 30 minutes of what domestic violence was, and the only thing I took from that is don't do couples work when there's domestic violence Moving on Right, yep, and so I'm like, ok, but I have no idea how to assess for that, what does it look like? Is this woman going to come into my office with a black eye, like what even is that? And so the term domestic violence even is a bad term, and people use intimate partner violence. Some of the cool kids terms is narcissistic abuses out there. That's like that's out there. A newer term that I really like it's not even that newer, but newer to the kind of wider audience is coercive control. So that is really what's going on. And then there are elements of violence as a part of it, and so people, right like people think it's going to look like physical violence. And yes, that happens, it absolutely happens, way more than we'd like to believe it happens.
Speaker 3:And what domestic violence actually looks like is when one partner is holding power and control, in whatever way that looks like over their other partner. So that can be through financial means, it can be through like emotional and psychological manipulation. It can be using the kids, it can be using threats, it can be, you know, using the people around them. The term is flying monkeys is to use other people to continue to harm and to abuse the person. It can be in spiritual in nature, so using like scripture or other forms of kind of religion is more often used to harm the person and have control over the person. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual coercion is all in there as well. So really, any time where one partner is purposefully, willfully, trying to have control over their partner, that is an element of that coercive control and domestic violence.
Speaker 2:So all of you breathe as you're listening because you're like wait, what? What? That's right. So there's a misconception when we go even to trainings about domestic violence, where they tend to focus on one aspects of the umbrella term, which is domestic violence. But what civil is sharing with all of you is that it's more than it's actually about control. Let me see if I capture everything that you were talking about, which is we're talking about physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, intimidation, which that will include immigration status, isis and verbal abuse, coercion, threats, blame using male privilege, economic abuse and what I never considered was religion abuse. I love that today, not that I love it, but I love it Actually.
Speaker 3:no, I don't love that.
Speaker 2:So it's more than it's not just like all of us therapists who like to use the term PTSD, no domestic violence. There's so many layers that go on, yes. So we want you to breathe, move your body and recognize that it's not that simple when we're using this term.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think the part that's really hard to stomach for a lot of therapists, specifically because we are supposed to be trauma informed everybody, because we are supposed to be trauma-informed everybody so when someone is kind of perpetrating abuses, we would really like to look at the why are they doing that? And this must be childhood trauma and they don't have attachment they didn't get. So yes to a lot of those things. And the abuse they're doing is willful and it's really strategic and it starts at the first date, or even before, or even before At the first interaction. It already starts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whew. I wish all of you could say this yeah, gross, right, which is like ugh. Then now it's automatically changed. Right, yeah, which is true, is true, right. We live in a patriarchy world, and it is when you are starting those dates and we get so excited. But it's more than that, right? This is if you're focusing with adults, if you're focusing with children. It's even the way that we manipulate children in order to believe Right. So it's all this, and I throw the immigration one, because it's the one that I tend to see more in my practice. Yes, which is how it is used to control a person. So in this one, it doesn't matter the gender, it just happens a lot, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've seen that very often. To where right. So someone from a different country is here on a visa and they fall in love with their soulmate and I say that facetiously and they let their visa lapse because there is the promise of marriage, there is the promise of this amazing better life. And visa lapses and now they are not here legally and now they cannot seek help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of it that you know. I think we also were up against what our programming trains us and the lack thereof. We're also up against, like pop culture and media, portrayals of domestic violence and what that looks like and the reality of the situation. Right Even. Still, most portrayals of domestic violence is physical abuse between a male partner and a female partner, where the male partner is the perpetrator. That's not all that it can look like, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, because, right, we have and this is location specific, like geographic specific or not married to a blue collar worker who's going to come home, crack open a beer and beat her. Yeah, like, that's the like, what we think, that's what we're kind of taught, that's what we're shown, and that is not what I see every day in my office, in my community. It doesn't discriminate age, education, financial, race, ethnicity. There's differences within that right. So, like, what it looks like may be different depending on these different characteristics or demographics. We have male victims, we have female victims who are abused by female partners. Right, we, it doesn't discriminate. And that's why I think it's so tricky, because you won't even know as a client that you are a victim of abuse, because you don't look like that, you don't fit the mold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly when we talk about culture, when we talk about the stereotypes that we create in regards to a niche, right? So when you were describing that, Sibyl, I was thinking like oh, I saw that in a movie, but it's not purple movies, right? And unfortunately, sometimes when we go to training, when we go to trainings, we continue with that stereotype.
Speaker 3:So I love that you're naming.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't look like that because that's the reality of the work. When we work with this population. It will never look like that and I love that you started with. A lot of times we're trying to make sense of why are they doing what they're doing? And then the next question and tell me if I'm wrong goes into but why they have not left, why are they staying?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes, and that is right. So if you are a therapist or you're just like a human being, don't ask that question. Thank you, right, it is like a lot of the trauma work that I do with my clients in my practice is around not the abuse that happened from their partner. It is about the abuse they received when they reached out for help, yeah, and from our larger system and from family and friends who did this very mild victim blaming. It's right, like from the outside it seems really mild, but it is. It cuts deeper than my clients who have had a gun held to their face. Yeah, it is worse that someone they loved and cared about with like a scowl is like why the fuck didn't you leave, like I would have left the first time, right?
Speaker 2:it's really harmful. So much shaming there, right, just with that statement.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it reinforces why women traditionally women, but victims don't speak up and it takes them so long. Right, because that is the fear that they're going to be met with judgment where they're going to be met with. Well, why didn't you? Or I would have done it differently. Or you know, when I was in my undergrad program, I worked at our local domestic violence shelter and one of the first things I mean this was this was a little bit ago, but like back then, the statistic was it took it. It took a woman eight times to fully leave and not return to that relationship. You know, I can't imagine now, because back then we didn't have social media, like we have social media now because I'm old but I think that that's part of it too is like we're being exposed to all of these messages that can be so shaming that if you do reach out heaven forbid to your loved ones, families and friends or a professional counselor and are met with victim blaming. What are we?
Speaker 3:doing. Yeah, it's horrifying Some of the things that I've heard from, yes, professionals, and I think something that we as and this is actually I have like a subspecialty in my practice um, is so we as a mental health community are like, oh, thank God, they, they left, they left the relationship If they share children with their partner. There's no leaving it, really there is no leaving. That post-separation abuse is a different kind of hell, is the language of my clients, and the system not only allows but supports it to happen.
Speaker 3:Men find themselves as they have children. They were never hit right, Because if there was that police report that they could bring to court, sometimes, let's be real, that actually doesn't matter. But right in the criminal case, it's like, wow, you should have no contact with this abusive person. Here is an order of protection, they cannot come within 100 yards of you, they should never communicate with you. And then we show up in family court and they're like, oh, actually you're going to need to talk every day about your child and you're going to need to co-parent and make it just great and we're not even going to look at abuse. That's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Which is exhausting.
Speaker 2:As a therapist, it yes reading those documents and and realizing that the system was never set up to support, in this case, let's say the, the caretaker who's taking care of their children. Yeah and um, it's just, our systems are exhausting. Can I say that out loud again?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes and right. So I know, liliana, you work with kids. Maria, I don't know if you work with kids or not. Yes, and guess what there's? The majority of child therapists out there do not accept these cases when they know that they are in family court, and so these kids don't have support, the protective parents don't have support, and then our family court system is just the biggest dumpster fire that can be of all the biases that could ever be there. They're there, of all the biases that could ever be there. They're there. And so you know, sometimes and this sounds horrible it makes sense for victims to not leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to share this piece, which is I have. Everyone who knows about me knows that I take too many trainings. I'm just going to put it out there. That's where I spend my money. That's okay, because this is my money.
Speaker 2:Acknowledging is the first step, lilian. I'm very proud of you, thank you. Second part is the best training I ever took was not from mental health therapists. We have an organization here in Colorado that used to do this trainings. I'm kind of reaching out and say, like, can you do this? But maybe it's going to be usable.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but the best training I ever took was from Family Tree, which is an organization that helps and supports these families in regards to trainings, in regards to housing, in regards to like it's, all these things. So, anyway, my training with them went like this it was five days training, by the way, that at the end there was a role play which I had to leave. I was the victim. I have so much money left in my account. I had a child, I had a pet and there was no hotel that will take us. I ran out of money and I had no choice but to go back.
Speaker 2:I never forgot that role play because I try, and everything that I knew cognitively and everything that I needed and everything I knew emotionally told me that I was going to have to suck it up for the well of my child. In that moment and in that moment I understood, I embody what it was like to be in that position and no matter what I knew, what I was going to have to support, because I was so alienated, I was not allowed to have Work history, I was not allowed to Like in that role play that I was like oh shit, the system set me up so that I could not escape. Yep, I hated the training. I cried so much After that role role play, but it was the best training because they never asked stupid questions and I never created stereotypes. Um, because I understood in that moment what was that like to be in that position yeah and right, it's like we are.
Speaker 3:We get inundated by messaging as well, right, not just our clients. And so we have this belief that there are these systems that are set up to protect, like law enforcement, family court, child protection, right, the criminal court system. All of these you know places are meant to protect and have the best interest of children. Is their taught, is like their slogan, right, that's in family court, whereas it's it's actually not true. So if you are there and you write like I put call 911 on my safety plans and there's more conversation than that, what has your experience been with police?
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, because it honestly, and this is so heartbreaking, but it depends on who shows up at your door Whether you as the victim are going to get arrested, or whether the perpetrator is going to be arrested, or whether anyone's going to be arrested at all.
Speaker 2:Can we add these two? Sybil, Because in my experience I've worked with people of color.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:As soon as they see you, or if you have an accent, or if all these things. You are screwed.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. So it brings up a client that I worked with. It was a Black woman and so, yes, we're safety planning because the risk factors were horrific for homicide. So if there's strangulation, they will say choking. They're not going to say strangulation. So if they've been choked, they need a safety plan. Yesterday, other than a firearm being used as a weapon during an abusive incident, strangulation is the highest predictor of homicide. So, just so folks know that when you're out there. But it was a Black woman with a Black partner, black male partner who was pretty large, and Black sons in her home.
Speaker 3:So, as we're creating a safety plan and I'm like, hey, we, we need to put, we're going to call 911 on there, and she's like never going to happen. And I was like, and I'm super aware. I am super aware because she's like my partner might wind up dead, my children might wind up dead, I might wind up dead, I don't know, because the fear is real, it's valid, and so we need to not just write like, yeah, this sounds horrible, but I'll put it out there. We need to have 911 on that safety plan to protect us. Yes, that's why it is there. It is protecting me as the therapist that I did the thing in my safety plan. They may not call 911, and we need to know why For their own safety. Yeah, we need to know why and we need to put that out there. Because they may not put that out there, right, and they may just nod their head and smile and put 911 on their safety plan, but then they don't actually know what to do because they're not going to call 911.
Speaker 1:Right, right, that's such a good point? Yeah, and I think it's. I think it is important that you know we we want these systems in place to do what we want them to do and to be protective. You know, I know here in our community it also can depend on how many times 911 has been called to your house. The response that you get when they get called out and who calls, can make a difference. Yeah, I'm wondering what else I mean. I think the strangulation tidbit that you just dropped is going to be brand new information for many of our listeners, is going to be brand new information for many of our listeners. But where should clinicians start so that we are not perpetuating the damage, we're not perpetuating the victim shaming and blaming Other than? I mean we'll list you or in contact information, but where can someone start to get more information and better understanding?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And so there are like amazing agencies like Family Tree. I work with Family Tree that Liliana shared before. They are fabulous and you are not maybe in Jefferson County, colorado, where Family Tree is located, so you might want to not use just Family Tree. There is a website, it's called domesticsheltersorg.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So you can search your state, you can search your county, city, and it will provide you the agency in your area. But other than that, they and they're not paying me to talk about them, but they're awesome, they have a ton of resources, they have amazing articles, they have webinars, they have free resources that you can attend all the time, all the time, and so they have. They are partnered with. I can't remember the agency name, but it is a specific organization that focuses on strangulation.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And so, if you are interested in learning about those risk factors, they have specific webinars on that. They have specific webinars on family court which, fyi, I got to lead one of those Nice. Which, fyi, I got to lead one of those Nice. But they have amazing resources on that site and they will send you. The site will send you where you need to go.
Speaker 2:I love that Beautiful. So again, right. So from the beginning we're talking about there's a lot of myths, like stereotypes, and first of all, can I go back, um, and say we as therapists have these fantasies, um, and I love them because where the world is gonna be perfect, everything is gonna be fair and just. And then we go into training for our master's program and we're like, oh, my god, I'm so ready to go change the world. And then we start taking these terms. We're like I'm not gonna work with that population thank you for naming that table, which is most of the therapists are like I will not work with couples because of this. I will not work with children because of this beautiful. That is the privilege. Good for you to live in that bubble. The reality is that they come in, and part of this podcast is how do we prepare you so that, one, you have awareness. Two, you don't panic and there are resources out there, and so that we don't continue with those messages that add to the shame, that add to the guilt, that add to even the religion?
Speaker 2:I never crossed my mind until you said it and that's not gonna go away now, because I'm like, yeah, that was, religion is being used in the big time in our society. Because even when you said it, I was like holy cow. That's why my grandma used to tell me that's your cross, you have to carry it right. And that was like, oh, I cannot leave, because then god is gonna be mad. God is like sauna clothes, they're watching everywhere every day and, um, family may not be supported because then you are leaving, you are breaking those, those walls, and then the system is not set up to help you, because the system was not for women, by women. It was set up by men, for men.
Speaker 2:I was just reading an article in Texas. What is suggested there in regards to marriages? I will not go into it because this is not a political. I was like holy cow. People chill, they're going back and they're using religion in that perspective. Yeah, and I was going to say something so inappropriate, but I'm going to keep it. But what you're talking about today is all the therapists listening out there one. It is scary to work with this population and you don't have to work with them, but you do have to have a list of referrals. That is ethical practice for you to have a list of referrals to share out, or even resources such as domestic sheltersorg. Thank you for sharing that with us today. But there's things that you can do in order for be prepared for the what if?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and when. It's interesting. You brought that up when I was started to do trainings for mental health professionals because I struggled to find referral sources when I was full or my practice was full, and so I would do these. And this was before COVID, so live trainings, which, oh hallelujah, I love it, like in person, and when I would ask people who were there just because I would do free trainings, because I was like y'all need to know this.
Speaker 3:And they're like but Sybil, I don't work with domestic violence. And so I'd be like, well, how many clients do you typically see in a week? And they're like, oh, I don't know, 20, 25, whatever it might be. I was like, if you see 20 female clients in a week, five of them are victims of domestic violence or will be Two and a half of them. If they are all 20 men, two and a half of them will be a victim of domestic violence or will be. So you actually do work with that. But that may not be why they're coming in, because they don't know that they are being abused. So they're coming in for anxiety, they're coming in for postpartum depression, they're coming in for these other illnesses or ailments or mental health issues. But what's actually going on, or in addition to, is domestic violence right? Like, yeah, you're going to be anxious if someone you were never right, they're talking trash about you, they're isolating you from everyone you know and there's a threat that they're going to physically harm you every day?
Speaker 1:Yep, I'd be pretty anxious too. Yeah, anxiety seems like a normal reaction to that situation.
Speaker 3:Very normal reaction, right, and so they may be coming in because they believe that there is something inherently wrong with them, because that's what they've been told over and, over and over by their partner.
Speaker 1:And yet it's actually domestic violence. That is what is going on, right? Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because if they don't know and the clinician doesn't know what to look for, then we're all dancing around it, yeah, and very often when I'm doing consultations with clinicians are like, well, I don't think he's abusive, but he's an asshole. With, clinicians are like, well, I don't think he's abusive, but he's an asshole, and so it's really looking at like, okay, so he might be just an asshole. Yep, let's look at it. But are there elements of coercion? Right? What does that look like? Domestic violence has been deemed a cult of one. That is something that has been kind of a metaphor or something, because the things that work to build cults, that is the exact same things that work to have a successful and I air quoted that domestic violence relationship. It's the same types of grooming, the same types of coercion that allow people to become cult members as a victim of domestic violence.
Speaker 1:That is fascinating, and I mean duh right Like yes, yes, of course, of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, but it's like we don't want to think about that because we're like cults are so rare and that's so weird. And it like, right, it keeps to think about that because we're like cults are so rare and that's so weird. And it like, right, it keeps us feeling safe that this isn't happening. And the cult of one and sometimes it's not just the one right, because they'll gather their, their followers, to help abuse and, to you know, keep this person in line, which might be, you know, faith-based, like members of their religion, or even their faith leader, or the other moms at the school at the pickup lines.
Speaker 2:Right, they may use all these different methods to keep the person stuck and isolated, so they can't leave and what I tend to see most and tell me if you have seen it too in your practice, which is most people have a hard time separating like profession and then how they show up at home. So he's a good police officer. There's no way he's a good teacher. There's. He's a good coach. There's no way. You're yes, which I'm like are you kidding me? You cannot separate.
Speaker 3:Someone can have a profession and be good at it, and they can suck at home yeah and even and this is like grosser to me, probably because of who I work with but like, but he's a good dad. Yeah, but no, but he's a good dad. He's ab, like, but he's a good dad. Yeah, but no, but he's a good dad. He's abusing her, but he's a good dad. Yeah, in my true of. And this is not just like my value system, this is what I see every day. If it is someone who is abusing the other parent of the child, they cannot be what I would consider a good parent, because they are incapable, for the most part, of unconditional care and love. Love will always have strings attached. It doesn't mean that they will always be unsafe to the child, but they are not a good parent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 3:And so that is really really hard to kind of wrap your head around and like when we? And it'll go super dark, super dark. So if we are looking at the homicide cases we've had, unfortunately, unfortunately a lot of recent ones the media portrayals will be family man killed, family of five. You're like that's a fucking family man, what are you talking about? Or like we could have never known that he would do murder, suicide, his ex, his ex-partner, his child, and you're like, excuse me, actually every predictor was present, everybody, like they were all there, they were there right.
Speaker 2:And so it's like fantasy of relationships and how, as a society, we fight so hard to maintain comfort. Do not show me that, because this is my bubble and I want to stay here.
Speaker 3:Yep, yes. And so for us doing the clinical work, we actually need to know the ugly. We need to take care of ourselves knowing the ugly. We don't necessarily have to share all of the ugly with our clients it is. It is for us to be well-informed so that we can help our clients not be in the news of like that and they already know some of it. We don't. It's not our job to rub salt in their wound, be like oh, do you know? Family court, you're likely going to lose your kids if you bring up domestic violence. Did you know that? No, no, we need to know that we're going to support them in very different ways than sharing all the scary. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Oh my God. I see Maria like nodding, taking out. She's like she's taking it in. She's like I'm ready for more of this. Sibyl, what is one thing that you want our audience to take from this episode?
Speaker 3:haven't talked about it specifically but the one thing as a mental health provider, that if you do this or know this, you will help your person. It is not ethical for us to replicate the power and control dynamic of the abusive relationship. And so if we see them as like these victims, and they're broken and they can't make decisions, and we try to make decisions for them, we are replicating that power and control dynamic. So, yes, it is hard to sit and hear that they are not going to leave. They're going back. You're like, oh gosh, like they're going to like it's going to continue. They're going back. You're like, oh gosh, like they're going to like it's going to continue. They're going to keep getting abused.
Speaker 3:How can I keep doing this work? How can I show up? It is their choice to stay or not to stay. It is their, their experts on their experience. They are the experts on their experience. And so, even while I'm an expert on domestic violence and coercive control, what it looks like, they know and this sounds backwards they know how to stay safe enough. Yeah, and we have to trust that they can stay safe enough, and so we just can't make those choices for them.
Speaker 2:Oh, beautiful, right. So please, for all of you who are are listening, it's not our job to project. It's not our job to be resentful because they know how to survive. Yeah, our job is just to sit with them. It's just to empower them and support them how it works for them, not for you and your agenda as a therapist.
Speaker 1:Just very similar to our play therapy listeners, right Like we don't do for, we empower them to do the best for themselves, which isn't may not always be what we would choose for them, but it's not our choice to make.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and right the. The thing that is stripped from a victim of domestic violence is their sense of autonomy and sense of self. And so if they get one place where they get to make choices and try that on again and figure out who they are, that is, that's my job is to be that place for them and that safe person for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beautiful, incredible. Oh, sibyl, thank you so much for being here with us today and for sharing your knowledge with our audience, audience. Just so you know, we're going to include again, like we do in other podcasts, Sibyl information. Just know that I will include the name of her podcast. This is a podcast that you want to go listen to so that you can learn more about it and then you can reach out to civil for training opportunities, for consultation opportunities. Please know, as she shared with us some aesthetics, which is you are working with this population. You just do not know what to look for, and that's okay. Our training was not set up for that, and when I mean our training is our master's program, because they were just giving us so much information in regards to models. Now it's our responsibility to go and get trained to show up for our clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, incredible, sybil. Thank you so much for being here thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:It's like the louder I can shout it from the rooftops, the more people will be helped yeah and the more therapists will not feel scared out of their freaking minds doing the work I mean, you can be scared, just don't pee in your pants, okay right thank you, thank you listeners, until next time.
Speaker 2:Till then,
