A Hero's Welcome Podcast

Beyond Control: How Behavior Speaks with Robyn Gobbel

• Maria Laquerre-Diego, LMFT-S, RPT-S & Liliana Baylon, LMFT-S, RPT-S • Season 2

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Demystifying the complex world of childhood trauma behaviors demands more than clinical knowledge—it requires a profound shift in how we view challenging behaviors altogether. Robin, a seasoned former therapist who specialized in supporting families of children with trauma histories, joins us to transform how we interpret behavior that seems baffling, dangerous, or personally directed.

At the heart of this conversation lies a powerful truth: all behavior is communication. Robin shares how this simple-yet-revolutionary perspective changed not just her clinical effectiveness but her entire job satisfaction. For therapists overwhelmed by children's difficult behaviors and the parents desperately seeking help, this framework offers immediate relief and a sustainable path forward.

Through accessible animal metaphors—the owl, watchdog, and possum—Robin translates complex neuroscience into language that resonates with both children and caregivers. These brain states, representing different nervous system responses, help decode why children behave as they do and what they're truly communicating beneath the surface. Rather than focusing solely on modifying behavior, Robin guides us toward understanding its protective purpose.

The conversation moves beyond traditional attachment theory, challenging the rigid categorization that has turned attachment into something to "achieve" rather than understand. Robin advocates for a more nuanced approach that recognizes even insecure attachments as brilliant adaptations to difficult circumstances—not failures to correct through shame or control.

For professionals feeling inadequate when faced with complex trauma behaviors, and for parents tired of being discharged by therapists who don't know how to help, this episode offers hope. Discover how curiosity can replace control, how understanding can replace judgment, and how small changes—just 1% different responses—can transform your relationship with the children who need you most.

A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Maria:

Welcome back listeners. We're so excited to have you. I am here with my fantastic co-host, Liliana, and Liliana, we have a very special guest this morning.

Liliana:

We do. Robin, I'm wondering how do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners this morning?

Robyn:

How do I want to introduce myself? That is such a big question, good grief. Well, I'm a former therapist. I have stepped away from doing therapy for the time being, and when I was a therapist, I was working pretty exclusively with kids and their families. Kids who had histories of complex trauma, like really pretty severe out of control behaviors attached to trauma, whatnot. And then in the past five or six years, I've really transitioned that to doing more speaking and teaching and educating, helping more professionals feel confident in working with these families, because I know working with these families can feel really scary and overwhelming and these families are telling me every day like there's nobody who knows how to help us. So I have a really big passion for supporting professionals, and then I still get to help families directly. I have like an online community where I get to work with families directly, which is really my heart. That is. That is my love every day.

Liliana:

Yeah, so, listeners, anyone who's out there, we're going to include Robin's website, but please go Cause when you go. You have handouts like you have created this. Have handouts like you have created this beautiful payback. Let me help you, let me simplify it. Website not only for the parents who are attending, but also for the therapists who can benefit from your training. So thank you for doing that yeah, well, thank you for that.

Robyn:

It is a big uh, that is a huge passion of mine that uh, I can have a stable enough business, that then I can create all of these free resources for folks. So I love doing that.

Liliana:

Awesome. So you also have your book Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors, which, by the way, I really love the title of the book. But even as you say that, right, I was thinking as I was listening to you and tell me if you also have the same questions. Maria.

Liliana:

But when I was reading your book, I was thinking for the new cohort of therapists who are coming into our field maybe some seasoned therapists as well, but for the new cohort of therapists who are coming in, especially right after COVID, we saw that most of the therapists were struggling on switching from how do I do therapy in person to online. And then now they're struggling from okay, how do I do that now in person? And something about your book that I love is how do we help therapists see behavior as communication and see the brain the way that you stated so beautiful in regards to the parts of the brain, but give them animal names so that therapists remember this, like you're simplifying, right? So how do you? How do you will talk to the new therapist about all behavior is communication.

Robyn:

For me when I started to truly understand exactly what you're saying, that all behavior is communication, it all means something and it all makes sense. That was such a pivotal moment for me in my work and like my satisfaction with my work. You know, the work we do is super hard and these kids that are you know, these the kids that I work with are like one step away from needing a higher level of care and their behaviors are dangerous or really out of control. And then you add in the attachment trauma and their behaviors feel so personal and confusing. They're really really bizarre behaviors and I, at the beginning of my career, was so confused by them which meant I left work every day feeling the same way.

Robyn:

Frankly, their parents were like, really overwhelmed, really confused, really ineffective, and that is a terrible way to work and also completely unsustainable way to work, like we can't go to work every day and leave every day being like I'm terrible at this job and I don't understand it at all. It's just, I mean, really fast path to burnout. So for me beginning to understand even if I couldn't understand like the specific behavior, but just like the overall idea that, like all behavior makes sense in some way, shape or form, it's all designed to be protective. Certainly, it's not always working that way, but that is the initial intent. Um, that changed how I liked my job, yeah, which then made it more likely that I could do it for a long time. So I feel really passionate about that, with helping therapists feel more confident in the work that they do, that they can show up every day, and even if they're like, whoa, this is a new one, I have no idea what to do with this. Yeah, there can still be like a sense of confidence, even in that thought. Right, like well, that's a new one. But okay, here we go.

Robyn:

And when, again, when I see the parents who are coming to me or emailing me or however they're connecting with me and just saying there's not enough therapists, there's not enough therapists, nobody will help my family, nobody knows how to help my family.

Robyn:

They all get to a point where they're like I don't know how to help you, and then they. Then they discharge us. Yeah, and and for me, even if we don't know exactly what to do, I think that sense of confidence of well, I don't understand this behavior, but I know it makes sense in some way, shape or form, and also, it's not actually even my job to fix it. Yeah, I think that it creates more sustainability in our jobs, yeah, which I really want for the therapist. Of course, this is a hard job, a very rewarding job. It'd be cool if we could do it as long as we want to. But again, my heart really is these families of wanting to help therapists feel more effective, so that they can hang with the families longer and I can have less families coming to me and saying we got discharged again.

Maria:

Oh, my God. No, I appreciate that because I know, you know, I know, speaking for myself there's fewer and fewer therapists coming out, but even fewer that are willing to work with children, right Like we. We have a program here in town, we're a university city and we'll get intern requests all the time Like, yeah, but you're going to work with kids, and they're like no, thank you, no, thank you. And that's our growing and will continue to be the growing need, and I think what you're offering families and clinicians is just this permission to just your job is to be curious. Just this permission to just your job is to be curious.

Robyn:

Yes.

Maria:

Not to have the answers, not to quote, unquote fix this but to be curious and to be open to a new form of communication and I love that.

Liliana:

Yeah, but also I was going back because I think that and tell me both of you your thoughts. Inner feel there is a fantasy about attachment. Right, I love the both of you smile Because we have this fantasy that every family, we disregard the stressors, we disregard the trauma and we focus on behavioral modification and the fantasy that every family should have always a secure attachment Love, the both of you just did this like winky smile and we keep focusing on the foundation that Bowlby did in regards to attachment and somehow we are afraid to focus on repair attempts and modify the attachment. So this is not for you guys to like, automatically agree with me, but what are your thoughts?

Robyn:

Well, we've, without question, made attachment this, um, almost thing to worship. Yes, right that it solves all of our problems and, just like you said, let's get everybody to have secure attachment, which couldn't be the. There's nothing less attachment oriented than saying something like let's get everyone to have secure attachment. But I think it's such a hallmark of kind of like white Western culture, right when we take this great idea. Frankly, a big fan of attachment theory.

Robyn:

I mean, I'm very, actually even rarely talk about attachment theory much anymore, like insecure attachment or avoidant attachment. I mean, you hardly even see that language in my book. Yeah, but attachment theory underlies everything that I do. Yeah, but you know, we've taken Again what I think is just this brilliant idea and concepts that are at the core of our humanity and essentially attempted to turn it into a right or wrong, and here's a checklist to get to it, thank you, which is again very predictable.

Robyn:

Like, of course, we did that and again nothing could be more grounded in attachment than the idea of it's right or wrong or there's a checklist. So when I do talk about attachment, I really emphasize, like well, first of all, our attachment system as described by bolby and our attachment styles are not the same thing you know, and our attachment styles. Are these brilliant adaptations?

Liliana:

there you go to our circumstances.

Robyn:

Yeah, they're not bad. Sometimes there's bad outcomes to the behaviors yes, yeah, merge from insecure attachment, and sometimes I say there's that they're not without a cost is what I I often say, um, and there's also no doubt that when we look at like the characteristics of a secure attachment, they're very similar to, like the characteristics of mental wellness and like it makes a lot of sense to be like, well, moving towards security and attachment is a good treatment goal. And then how can we balance that with being, you know, respectful and aware of, like, what's showing up right in front of us and having so much gratitude? I mean, I look at these kids every day, because I mostly am thinking about kids, but their parents too. I look at these kids every day and I'm like it is a miracle that you are even alive, yeah, a miracle. A miracle that you get up every day and try to do life and those attachment adaptations. That, without question causing lots of problems, but that's how they're able to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maria:

Right, I don't know that's long-winded, yeah, no, we're back to that. It's communication, right, and we can hold the belief that everyone's doing the best they can with what they have and what they know, and it's not all great, but it is what keeps them getting up in the morning and it keeps them, you know, making these attempts idea. There's one descriptor, one example of a secure attachment, and everything else falls into one of the other categories, and that is such a I can say this because I'm as white as snow it's such a whitewash attempt of putting it in a box and, like you, must meet this particular criteria to have a secure attachment, otherwise you're one of the other ones and good luck to you.

Robyn:

Yeah, and as if to you, yeah, and as if that's even bad. So I talk about that a lot Like insecure attachment is not bad, it's brilliant.

Maria:

It's so brilliant. It's safety for them. Yes.

Liliana:

So what if, right, all the therapists that are listening and going to your trainings right, go back to if all behavior is communication and we know the kids, as you just mentioned, either they are surviving or protecting because they're reading their environment? What if, instead of all these assessments and checklists, what if they become curious about what is it they're attempting to repair or get from a universal attachment need, and what are the adjustments that they have to do, either the caretakers or the kiddos to their environment, from what they need or in regards to just basic needs. Or in regards to just basic needs, or in order to come back to moments of regulation which that's what I love about your book Like, how do you go in detail in regards to regulation? That's just like I throw it out. I was like, do I even have a question there?

Robyn:

No, well, I think kind of what you're saying. A lot of times I'll talk about someone's hope versus their expectation, and we can get really complicated about it. But essentially everybody's hope is to be safe, seen, soothed and secure, and that's Siegel and Bryson's language from their brilliant parenting book Safe, seen, soothed and secure that's everyone's hope, and we're always just really dying for that truth. But attachment is just implicit memory, and implicit memory is helping us predict what's about to happen next, and so we have our expectations based on our previous attachment experiences. And so folks that have in the moment are moving through the world with implicit memory of anxious attachment, for example, like they have an expectation about what's going to happen in this relationship.

Robyn:

And not only do they have that expectation, but they, we, we set up our expectations. We set up our expectations and we interpret people's behaviors based on what we're expecting as opposed to based on what actually really happens. So there's, of course, this really big vicious cycle that's constantly happening, where we're like longing for somebody to show us like no, no, no. Relationships can be different. You can experience being safe, seen, soothed and secure, but at the same time we're expecting that not to be true. We're behaving in ways that are setting that up and we're interpreting other people's behaviors through that lens. So it's of course, exceptionally complicated and helping. I think both parents and therapists really decode what's happening here.

Liliana:

Yeah.

Robyn:

Makes it more likely that they might be able to, you know, kind of see the setup, see what the expectation is that's being kind of handed to them and maybe respond somewhat differently. And when I work with parents I'm like listen, if you could maybe aim to do this differently, like 1% of the time. That's all we're going for here. These are very powerful expectations, very powerful setups. Your kid's out of control behavior is setting you up to respond in a scary way or respond in a dysregulated. Of course you can't be anything but human. Maybe 1% more could you put on those we talked about, our x-ray vision goggles, and like try to see the behavior for what it really is and for what it's really asking for.

Maria:

Next, which again is actually quite simple but exceptionally hard to be safe, seen suits and secure I love that and I also love that it's because when we talk about behaviors and attachment right, we talk about, like the children attaching their relate, their attachments to parents, and it's always fun for me to remind parents you also have an attachment, you also have some of these expectations you're your kid, you act out in this way, so you're setting yourself up, they're setting themselves up and it's this you know vicious cycle.

Maria:

But I think when I do this with parents that sometimes it catches them off guard and they're like oh, oh, that's right. I do also have my own attachment. You know style, and sometimes it's just a mismatch of that language that the attachments there, but the language in which it's being communicated is not exactly but, even, but, even.

Liliana:

on that, what I just love and what you shared, ramin, which is can we be curious, right, can we? Can I invite you to 1%, let go of the idea of control. And can we be curious about the behavior, not only your child's behavior, but your behavior, how we are responding to those underlying needs, right, I love?

Robyn:

that part. Yeah, be curious to your own behavior too.

Liliana:

Yeah, right, knowing that when we're dysregulated, we go back to what is familiar to us and we're talking about different generations with different expectations, different memory, different needs, not because we're so different, but because the environment has been different for all of us, right? Can we just be curious from this lens?

Maria:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Robyn:

And curiosity, I think, is one of the more powerful parenting tools we can bring in and it's also probably one of the hardest. I mean, it's really hard to be in an intimate attachment relationship, whether it be with our kids or our partners, and to lead with curiosity because we're just leading with our expectations. That's just how life works. Where we're just leading with our expectations, that's just how life works. And so to slow that down and pause and lead with curiosity is really hard, but super powerful.

Maria:

And talking about the generational difference, right, like I mean, when we're talking about this, the thing that comes to mind we need a different phrase than curiosity killed the cat, because that really makes people, especially when we're talking about parents or in our community a lot of times it's grandparents raising grandchildren, right. When I try to talk to them about this in this language like that's, what comes to their mind, too is like, well, no, what I say is law, what I expect is what's going to happen, and so being able to just change the overall view of just being curious is something I think that we're still up against.

Robyn:

Well, that both can be true. Actually, you know that we can. We actually can parent with like no, actually I'm in charge of what I say goes, if that for some families that's important, for some families with regards to the makeup of the family and who's making up that family and who has what capacity for what, and there's a lot of complication, a lot of complicating things that happen here. But we actually can do both. We can parent with like no, I'm in charge and what I say goes, and still be curious. Those two things can coexist, yeah. Yeah, being curious doesn't mean I talk about this like understanding behavior. Being curious about it is not excusing it Right, it's not saying, oh fine, then, yeah, no, yes, no, no, no, but it changes the energy upon which we respond to that behavior, how we show up.

Maria:

They don't take the charge out of it, yeah, and it can help with that where parents take it personal.

Robyn:

Right.

Liliana:

Yeah, and it can help with that where parents take it personal Right, Right, If we can stay in that curious space, it helps tone that down a little bit because we can recognize oh, this isn't necessarily an attachment lens or generational difference. Most parents tend to go into underlying fears If my child does not do this, this will happen. I remember doing this exercise with the mother and I remember like, so what will happen if? So, what will happen if? Like, just asking that question over and over again, I think we end up where she said, oh my God, my daughter is going to be a prostitute and I was like how do we? Got here?

Liliana:

And but at that moment, taking that information, then I became curious about oh, when this child does this, automatically you go to this terrifying fear and you're doing everything to control so that she doesn't get to that part, Got it? I'm going to have this information now when I'm talking to you so that I can talk about the parental fears taking over when you see these behaviors Like that did a shift for me and I'm wondering how many new therapists or seasoned therapists, but new therapists are aware of the parental fears versus going through the checking list of the attachment Like they're in this. I was like, okay, that doesn't mean anything to me, let's bring it back. Which feels really bad to tell a new supervisee.

Robyn:

It doesn't mean anything to me. Yeah, I mean it's true and not true. I mean, really, I am like me and attachment theory we're real close. It is definitely, you know, a core part of how I move through the world and conceptualize everything, but I would never talk about it. I never talk about that insecure attachment. I, I don't know it's just like it's can helps me conceptualize everything, but it's not. It's completely unhelpful to lead with that, as you know, an approach, I think I mean, come on on between us.

Liliana:

I'm making the assumption that we all have children, but I have never talked to my child and said is anxious attachment popping up right now? Is that why you're talking to me that way?

Maria:

So you might not have Liliana, but your TikTok feed will show you that other people do Like. They take this and they run with it and that's how they talk about like, which can be helpful, I think, for some, but I think for a lot of others. I think it just it creates this. Well, if I'm not this, that I'm othered right. If I'm not, if it's not 100%, but I'm failing at it, because even the most secure attachments are going to have rough patches. They're going to have disagreements. They're still going to have behaviors pop up like that. It's not the end all be all like solution. It is a way to understand what is happening and then you can make choices around that. But it is out there in the public domain. It is definitely pushed as. If you have this, then you wouldn't have any of those behaviors because your child behaves that way. You don't have a secure attachment with your child, as that is your fault.

Liliana:

So let me shame you, let me create more fear for you. Let's bring it back.

Robyn:

So in your book, which by the way isn't how you heal attachment. Just be super clear with everyone Shame and healing attachment don't connect.

Liliana:

What is it that Taylor Swift says? Shame didn't cure anyone. What is her song? Oh, that's Shake it Off.

Maria:

I was like stop it.

Liliana:

But I love and hopefully all our listeners have read your book and if not, just go get it. Okay, and just go get it, okay, and just go get it. And I love. So I'm wondering if you can talk to our listeners who are not familiar with your book or your work. Can you tell us just a sum up of the brain states?

Robyn:

Yes, so preferencing that I was a play therapist before I stepped away from the therapy room. I use a metaphor that's not terribly unique. Lots of people use this particular metaphor or some sort of adaptation of it, but I use this metaphor of having essentially different kind of nervous system states or brain states. I really actually blend them in a way that I think is both helpful and unhelpful. But I talk about the owl and the watchdog and the possum, and a lot of folks want to turn that into something about like the triune brain, which it is not. So I think it's most helpful to think about it from first from a nervous system perspective, and I am also connected to and kind of grounded in polyvagal theory. So I'm looking at the nervous system through the lens of, like, the ventral vagal complex and the dorsal vagal complex and the sympathetic nervous system, and so my owl is, you know, the ventral vagal complex, and I've got the watchdog, that's the nervous system, shifted into the sympathetic activation, which, by the way, does not necessarily mean fight or flight. And then I've got the possum, which is that dorsal vagal part of the nervous system, kind of blended that with Dr Bruce Perry's neuro-sequential model therapeutics work and his arousal continuum, which I have found wildly helpful in my work. He has both the arousal continuum and the dissociation continuum when he talks about state-dependent functioning, and so he has. So for me, the watchdog continuum is arousal continuum and the possum is the dissociation continuum. And then, yes, I also can sort of bring in the idea that the owl is kind of lives at the top of our brain.

Robyn:

The owl for me does represent, like our highest cortical functioning that could be available given our you know, chronological age and our developmental age and all that kind of good stuff. So it's a little bit of a mashup of some things, but I've personally obviously found it quite helpful and a little definitely more helpful than just looking at it from like a triune brain perspective. I think it really helps us one see the behaviors, as you know, driven by what's happening in the autonomic nervous system, almost always not always, but almost always and then if we can see the energy, you know, because parents come to me and they're like well, what do I do about lying? What do I do about stealing? What am I like? Well, I can help you with that, but I have a lot more questions before I would ever begin. Yep, because the behavior tells me very, very little.

Liliana:

Yes.

Robyn:

You know. Now I have to think about well, is this? You know, what's the protective response here? Which pathway are we on? Is this more of a regulation issue? Is this more of a connection issue? Is this about felt safety? I mean, there's a lot of information to still kind of gather before I'd even begin to have some ideas about what do we do to help that. So, did that answer your question?

Liliana:

It did. Honestly, I tend to use your terminology because I mean I tend to work with migrants who are in. Their caretakers are in survival. Yes, if I go and use fancy words, it doesn't mean anything to them. However, using animals and this like it is so helpful for them, right? So I tend to ask them because we're dealing with the fear of being deported or having families separated, which is additional stressors of my population. Then for me, the question is is your kid, what is it that your kid feels the need to protect themselves? Or is this behavior a survival in order to coexist in two different worlds?

Liliana:

oh yeah can we go through this? What if I invite you for you to go through this? And because most of those parents are very protected, um, and in that projection they are projecting their nervous system? Response of course they're. It's all these things right, which, again, we don't talk about from that perspective because, I get it, not everyone is working with this population, but your definitions, like it's so for me, are so easy to take when talking to these parents. So thank you for that.

Maria:

Yeah, absolutely Good.

Robyn:

I mean they were developed by kids. So eventually I mean really it's like it's my work, but I really co-created that with the kids who came to see me and then really, of course, discovered along the way like oh, the parents like to use this language as well. It is simple, it's relatively intuitive, is what I've found. It doesn't necessarily need to accompany a whole lot of teaching piece.

Robyn:

I think of this work of coming into relationship with the parts of ourself that we don't like, other people don't like, we're getting in trouble for, and I have just personally found it's a little easier to build a relationship with your, you know, very hardworking, if not a little overreactive watchdog than one's amygdala. But also, I don't actually care and I'm very clear about that when I teach I don't care what your metaphor is, and for some folks they are going to lean into more science language. That's wonderful as well. I literally don't care. That's wonderful as well. I literally don't care. Learn the science, learn why. I think a metaphor is helpful and I think those of us that spend a lot of time with kids can see that so powerfully. You know their willingness to, you know, lean into relationship with these different parts of themselves. You know, adults do that too. They're just a little more guarded about it. But I have found that, yeah, this shared language helps the grownups too.

Maria:

Yeah, Well, and especially I mean the ones that come to mind for me are the parents who are trying to do it different and don't have a template right, Like they're working hard enough, as it is just trying to do things differently, Coming at them with very scientific terms like I've lost them right. But when we were able to talk about the possum and the owl and the watchdog, like they get it, they get it, and it's a lot easier for them to hold on to that Mm-hmm.

Liliana:

Yeah. So what we're saying is like thank you for taking that step and creating these analogies and simplifying something that I love. When you mentioned Dan Siegel, I was like, yeah, I love him, and when I go to his trainings, I'm like what? I'm like writing down and then having to go. I was like I speak clinical language. Why do you have to make it so complicated?

Maria:

because that's his language.

Liliana:

I was like I hope he never hears this podcast, because that's the last thing I want yeah, my guess is he's aware of this.

Robyn:

I never met dr siegel, but what I have understood from people who have is that he too has so much gratitude for those of us who have taken his work and then can make it more accessible. He's aware. Same with Dr Porges. They know and they want their work to matter. Yeah, and that's another part of it that's attracted me to this particular field. Is that's not true in all theories? Yeah, not everyone's so generous relational neuroscience are, you know, quite generous with this idea. That's like we all are offering something and they've offered the science and they want it to be useful. So for us who do spend I mean, we spend all day long with little kids, right, like those of us that can kind of translate the super complex material into something that helps parents and kids utilize it. I think Dr Siegel loves that. But also, I've never met him.

Maria:

So I'm just kidding, but I appreciate, robin, what you're doing, because I mean, yes, you've stepped away from direct practice for a little bit, but it's the same thing, right? You're taking in all this information and then you're translating it to the next party in a way that they can understand it. You do that with kids and to their parents or systems that they're in. You've done that now in the science field of like. This information is really helpful and the people who need it are not necessarily understanding it. How can I translate that so that it is effective for clinicians and parents to get it?

Liliana:

Yeah. So, as we're coming on to an end which I feel like we can keep going and going, this is something that we started to ask our guests, which is when you're not doing the work that you do, which, again, thank you for doing what you're doing. How do you recharge? Because we have also this fantasy about self-care and how are we dealing with burnout? And if you have the answer, how are we dealing with burnout? We are going to send you honey. How do you recharge when you're not doing what you're doing?

Robyn:

charge when you're not doing what you're doing. Very fortunate to live in a somewhat rural area, but that still gives me easy enough access to the city. So even as just I sit here right now, what my view is is quite remarkable I have such easy access to nature. I remember a long time ago sitting on my therapist couch and kind of lamenting having to work so hard and I wish I had to work so hard. And she was like if you have more free time, what would you do? And I said I would take a lot of yoga classes, which, coming from now, is super funny because I hate yoga.

Robyn:

I am not taking a lot of yoga classes, but what I actually am doing is going to the gym a lot and moving my body a lot, and I take aerial silks classes. And I'm not an athletic person in any way Nobody would ever associate that word with me but movement is so important to me and movement helps me feel like I exist. So I try to get outside and I try to move my body and I read a lot. I really also love to just be quiet and read. So I'd say those are the. I spend time with my family. I do all those kinds of things as well. I'm very lucky to have a very, very close relationship with my husband and son, um, but it's just like tiny little moments right. There's no big thing I do, it's just these little things that are kind of woven in to life. I'm very blessed, so privileged to have access to these things.

Liliana:

Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for saying yes and for being here and for sharing your wisdom with our listeners.

Robyn:

Oh, I'm delighted it's been so special to be able to chat with you all this morning.

Liliana:

Thank you for being here and listeners please. We're going to include her information. Reach out to her, pay for her services, don't be cheap and buy her book.

Maria:

Yes, and I know this will come out in the summer. So if you're in New Mexico, she's coming to our state. So we'll also kind of include that information because if you'd like to soak up some more of her wisdom, she'll be somewhat local to us.

Robyn:

Yes, November, I think.

Liliana:

Until next time.

Robyn:

Thank you.

Liliana:

Thanks.

People on this episode

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Liliana Baylon, LMFT-S, RPT-S

Host
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Maria Laquerre-Diego, LMFT-S, RPT-S

Host
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Robyn Gobbel

Guest