Why Therapists Should Lean Into Kids’ Digital Worlds with Rachel Altvater

What if “screen time” could become the most connective part of your day? We sit down with psychologist and play therapy supervisor Rachel to rethink digital life not as a threat to childhood, but as a modern playground where families can heal, learn, and laugh together. From a rollicking demo of Acron (VR tree vs. mobile squirrels) to the tiny moments of co-viewing YouTube with a toddler, we explore how games and videos can spark language, regulation, and genuine relationships.

Rachel breaks down why parents and clinicians often feel stuck: uncertainty drives anxiety, and anxiety drives avoidance. Instead of chasing expertise, she shows how competence in digital spaces mirrors any play medium—paint, puppets, or pixels. Learn how to read the setting, roles, and rules of a child’s favorite game, and ask process questions inside the play. You’ll hear her vivid Minecraft story of two kids searching for diamonds, one digging down and one exploring caves, which reveals how meaning lives in the choices, not in your mastery of the mechanics.

We also discuss balance and boundaries without scare tactics. Yes, align with pediatric guidance and your family values. But recognize that technology now mediates how kids connect; a blanket cannot fracture social ties and trust. Try practical shifts: schedule a console-based game night, co-watch videos and narrate, ask your teen to teach you their world, and treat voice chats and guilds like you would a neighborhood hangout. For therapists, pick one platform a client loves, learn just enough via “YouTube University,” and let curiosity lead.

By trading judgment for presence, screens become toys, and toys become language. That language builds bridges between parent and child, therapist and client, and among peers who live both online and off. If you’ve been wary of VR headsets, Roblox builds, or YouTube binges, this conversation offers a calmer, evidence-informed path forward and simple steps to start today.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a reframe on “screen time,” and leave a review to help more curious parents and clinicians find us.

Contact Link: beacons.ai/docvater

A Hero's Welcome Podcast  © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Transcript

Liliana 0:36

Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, Maria, and I'm joined by my silly dancing co-host this morning. Excuse me. Let's start with fun.

Maria 0:48

I'm Liliana Balin, and we are here with uh returning guests. We're so excited that you're back. Rachel, how do you want to introduce yourself again to our audience?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I'm stoked to be here. I love our time and our connection. I'm so excited for everyone that's tuning in. Grab your sparkly beverages and let's get cozy. But yeah, I'm Rachel. I I that's how I like to introduce myself. I guess we can give a little bit about who I am.

Liliana 1:15

So you know who know you're a single name. Like you know, Rachel. Yeah, Rachel.

Maria 1:21

This is how important she is. We don't need a last name or credentials. It's just her name. That's right. It's the human part. That's right. Um yeah. I oh go ahead. No, I was gonna say it's the human part, even though we're gonna be talking about digital.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I know the digital landscape. I'm telling you though, the um I very much do view, and I'll I'll come back to introducing me in a second, but I can't help myself because we're about to go down this little sidestep. Yes, because that's how we started with some mindset. You know what I mean? That's how we roll in here. But yeah, it's it's so interesting. I actually very much view digital as an extension of the human brain. It truly is.

unknown 2:04

Yeah.

Rachel’s Work And Focus Areas

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So so yes, it is digital and it is it is separate, and it is an extension of us, which I will also say I I'm realizing even more, like even with AI, AI really is an extension of us. Yeah. I asked my AI to name itself. So I already introduced myself. My AI's name is Arlo. Oh, nice. Mine's Orion. Oh, I love this. I found out just through the explanation that Arlo gave that it really is how we interact, which is so interesting. So, anyways, I digress because I could have a whole discussion with that. So if it comes up, it comes up. Otherwise, maybe we'll have another discussion another time. But but yes, I um I'm Rachel. I am a licensed psychologist, a registered plate therapist supervisor. I own a group practice called Creative Psychological Health Services. We have three physical locations and it's a hybrid practice. So we also provide virtual services. I love to train. I am in all kinds of different leadership positions, um, state, national. I train uh primarily on incorporating digital technologies in play therapy, but I also train on self-care, supervision, anything that is needed, trauma, uh anything that's needed that aligns with my specialties. So that's a little bit about me. I always, always say I like to sprinkle myself everywhere. It's little polka dots behind me. And yeah, I just I'm passionate about connecting with others and sharing knowledge and just growing together collaboratively.

VR Family Gaming With Acron

Liliana 3:36

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, we were just talking before that you were one of our first guests on our first season. So here we are, season three, getting to welcome you back. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, we love our time with you. So even if we don't get all the way down to AI, I think that is a conversation that needs to be had for sure. And I haven't had a chance to share with you, but I think this is kind of open the where we're headed for a conversation today. I recently introduced my family to Attack of the Squirrel using a VR set and may have convinced other people present to obtain a VR set.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Oh, it's so fun. I think it's called Acron. Yeah, it has a lot of acorn, and I always thought it was acorn, but it actually is acron. Yeah, it's been delightful.

Liliana 4:34

So my kids are eight and ten right now, going on like 16 and 23. And they very much are digital kids. I'm a gamer, I love my digital realm. And it was I think we were stuck home over the winter break recently, and I was like, we need to do something different because we're a gaming family, but we were also like on our own devices, and I was like, Oh, I remember this from the training with Rachel and Jessica. And now it has become like at least three times a week. We are playing, and I my daughter has discovered that as the tree, you can actually pick up the squirrels. Oh, yeah, and chuckle them. Yeah.

How The Game Works In Therapy

SPEAKER_00 5:22

So that is her favorite defense. Oh yeah. I guess for those listening, I'll take a step back for a second and just explain. So Acron is a cross-platform game. One player is in the VR headset and everybody else is on a smart device. So everyone downloads the acron app except for the one who is using the well, I guess technically the one who's using the VR headset. You have to download the app in the VR headset too, but it's different. Anyway, so the the person who's wearing the headset is the tree in the game. And then everybody else who's playing are different squirrels or like little little creatures, little bitty creatures. And they are, they ultimately are running to collect acorns, and all of the squirrels work together. They want to collect the acorns and then within a certain time frame get a certain amount or all of them. I I forget the exact specifics. But meanwhile, the the tree who's in a VR headset, which is super cool because the tree sees the A, the little squirrels coming in like 3D. Everyone else playing, you know, just sees it on 2D on their screens. But, you know, the squirrels like sneak ground and they try to grab the the little acorns, and the tree is able to throw out different different things, like like sticky goo that like how has the the little critchers slow down. And yeah, anyway, but they can, they can pick them up and they can throw them off the map and all kinds of things. So it's super duper duper fun. Um, I've played in sessions, it's great to play with families.

Liliana 6:54

Yeah, because it's one of the one of the few ones that we have found that's cooperative and competitive, kind of all in one. Um it does, it really does lend itself well to like multiplayers. So, like uh yeah, we were we were talking about it of like this could be really fun for family sessions too, in terms of like who works together, how do they communicate, frustration tolerance, causation tolerance? Someone self-identifying.

Maria 7:28

All your feels are welcome here. Yeah, this feels really actually a great wait, wait, conversation of how do we help therapists who are afraid of family sessions to utilize a game like this? So, how do we help therapists work with digital the digital parenting, like teaching about digital like game councils, what games to play, how they function, so the parents become aware because parents are busy too many stressors, too many things, and therapists are actually missing out on not only helping families come together and play in a different way, coming into the kids' world, but also understand that world because I I feel like a lot of the parents reject it because they don't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yes, all the thoughts, and that's I I love that last point that you made because I think that really is the root. Yeah, there's uncertainty. Uncertainty ultimately results in heightened anxiety, and our nervous system is programmed in a way to keep us safe, self-preservation. So it doesn't differentiate between a tiger in the woods and you know, just an unknown digital realm.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Yeah.

Tech As Modern Play And Coplay

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Anxiety is anxiety, fight, flight, freezer, fawn is the response to keep us safe. Now, of course, the reactions might be a little different. I'm not saying that, like, you know, not knowing how to play acron is the same as like, you know, facing a bear in the woods. No. And our nervous system does respond before our brain is able to kick in and inform it we're actually okay here. There's something called uh moral panic, or ultimately, when something new is introduced, there is panic, like there is because of the uncertainty. And again, that's it's a normal human response. And I'm noticing this a lot across the board, parents, but also therapists, professionals, because we have learned that we need to operate competently. And if we are venturing into these spaces where we don't know things, we're not practicing competently. So we're not going to incorporate it, which makes complete sense. Competence does look a little different though, than I think we sometimes realize. We don't have to know everything there is to know about a game or a space or a play method, digital or otherwise, to be competent in what we're doing. It's feeling comfortable enough within potential discomfort to be able to help a client navigate the space or child, depending if we're talking about parent or clinician, to be able to guide in a healthy direction, right? Healthy digital citizenship, to be able to figure out the unknown and be open to continuing to steer in healthy directions. If we continue to approach things by saying, nope, danger, I don't know this, I'm shutting it off because the nervous system is shutting it off. I get it. And the digital realm is here to stay. So I really genuinely believe that us as clinicians and parents really need to lean in and whatever way aligns with us to enhance our comfort and ultimately steer use in a healthy direction. So that's kind of my little my little nugget initially to start off with. But but ultimately, you know, with with parents, I think it's it's just helping them lean into their kids' worlds and clinicians.

Liliana 11:05

Yeah. I think it's about connection, you know. My my little one started during the pandemic. She started school pre-K during the pandemic, but even excuse me, not in the pandemic, like kids are learning on tablets. They have their own laptops at school, they have smartboards instead of whiteboards in the classrooms. If we aren't willing to be vulnerable and learn ourselves as parents and clinicians, we are missing out in their communication, like majorly.

Balance, AAP Guidance, And Values

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Yes. Technology is the modern facilitator of communication. And if we're looking at play and play therapy, play is a child's enablement of communication. So if technology is the modern facilitator of that, we are missing a huge piece of the way that they're communicating. I have a toddler, two and a half. He loves the screen, but we are super balanced and I'm very present and I'm aware. I know what he's watching. We watch it together. Sure, sometimes like he's watching stuff and I'm around and I run up and run down. Like, yes, but I don't make it a babysitter. You know, ultimately, right now he is in his dino era, has transitioned from his car era. But anyway, that's for a different discussion, another place and time. But but, anyways, he loves dinosaurs. And there is a certain family that we discovered, and they have dinosaur toys where they have a magic wand and the dinosaur toys become these big dinosaurs. I think they probably use AI. And my son, Lennox, I'll just say Lennox, Lennox plays the role of the dinosaur. So he wakes up in the morning, not every time, but he'll say, Watch dinosaur. To an outside perspective, I could see someone saying, Oh my gosh, your child is addicted to the screen. They wake up in the morning and the first, you know, or he wakes up in the morning, the first thing that he says is if he wants to go on YouTube. I mean, he doesn't say it that way, right? But he says, watch dinosaur. Me knowing him and being present and engaging in coplay with him. And by the way, watching YouTube together is engaging in copla. It is a modern method of play, which is hard for a lot of us older individuals to feel, but it's true. It's it is a modern method of play. And I'll come back to another point with that in a moment. But he says, watch dinosaurs. What I hear him say is, Mom, I want to play dinosaur right now. And what he does, we go downstairs, we do our morning routine, we go downstairs, not all, again, not every day, but most times, I'll turn on dinosaurs. He goes, he gets his feet ready. It's so cute. And he starts to stomp, stomp. He goes, Rr. And he like opens his mouth. I mean, I'm telling you, he embodies the dinosaur.

unknown 13:37

Yeah.

Digital Natives And Play On YouTube

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And then we have all of our dinosaurs set up and then he plays with them alongside. So it's balance, right? And it's it's leaning in and it's finding his interest. We started watching a couple videos just to learn about dinosaurs, learn names, learn facts. He like learned how to count. And again, it's not that it's replacing me, it's just he's learning quicker because he's he's you know digesting information. I do want to say I know that the American Academy of Pediatrics does have recommendations of, you know, how much screen time and what ages it starts. And so you know, ultimately proceed intentionally. Make sure that you're doing your research. Just because someone is doing something a certain way or I'm expressing what I do with my family does not mean that that aligns with you. And that's something else that's super important here. Not only leaning in with what your child loves or is interested in, but also what aligns best with your family, your your values, all the things. So I just want to name that one quick sidestep and then I'll I'll stop talking. But what I was mentioning, I was gonna just gonna come back to this. In around the pandemic, I like I think a couple years leading up to it, maybe even like at the very start of it, the one of the highest paid or the highest paid and most popular YouTuber was Ryan from Ryan's world. And for those who don't know, he's I think probably now a teenager, but a child whose channel was fully about unboxing and playing with toys. So like sit with that for a second. One of the highest paid, most popular YouTubers, and there are, I don't know the actual stats, but millions, millions of video, billions of videos, millions, billions of profiles, and a child who's playing with toys is tippy top. What does that say about digital native children? So I'll let that simmer. I'll just let it let it simmer.

Curiosity Over Judgment For Clinicians

Maria 15:25

No, I I love right because I always talk to supervisees in regards to uh let's try not to be judgmental, even though we are, about parents not being able to coplay because of all the stressors, especially in the current environment that we're living. Yeah. However, I love the the you mentioned like you don't let digital be the babysitter. And there's a great book. I'm starting to remember the other that he wrote years ago called The Other Parent. And he was talking about how we were using technology as a babysitter in order for us to function and do what we needed to do because we were overwhelmed as parents. Yeah, it's called the other parent, and literally the cover is like a TV screen. But he was talking about years ago about how we were moving to using technology in ways that we never dream about, because of how we were becoming a global entity, even though we still refuse to see it that way. But there were like so many things, such as when you say, like, yes, even when I'm watching YouTube with my channel, that's coplay. And and the digital world is the facilitators of us doing coplay. And I think this is how for all of you who are my age or even older, we grew up playing board games. We grew up having only maybe like three, five channels, depending on where where we were. So even though we were not consuming as much, that's because it was limited for us. But do you guys remember when we got introduced to AOL and how we were the generation they had to figure that shit out? Oh, dial up and explain it to our parents who were not in that world, and then inviting, and there was other issues, but let's just focus through the digital there will be, but digital on-screen, off-screen, there's gonna be issues, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Because if it's an extension of the human brain and experience, there there's gonna be perilous aspects, but anyway, I digress.

Maria 17:28

No, but but I think this is important because we always we have always been uncomfortable. Every generation has endured something when we're uncomfortable, and it's usually the caretakers who have a hard time joining in. Yeah, so it that means from the idea that you talk about competence, the idea of I have to know it all, I have to have the answer, I have to have the time, is all the shoots that the parents are dealing with. And I love the invitation is how do we utilize the digital world, either through games or through videos or through and and pay attention to that? My my kids are young adults, I still call in my kids, and that may be confusing, but my children, uh babies, they're babies who are 27 and 22.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

I'm sure they would love that if they hear us talking right now.

Joining Kids’ Worlds To Build Trust

Maria 18:24

We now play Monopoly, we play Mario Bros. Like we play everything through their game console because that's where they exist. The original games, by the way, they're collecting dust because we go and play everything on the big screen or we share controllers, we do all these things, and it's always of we having to join them to find out how they play, who they play with, how do they communicate, like where is the chat room? Like it's all these things now that we're learning, but that took quite a bit of me even reaching out sometimes and asking Maria, what the hell is this? Uh let me go and Google this and now, like, echo, explain this step by step.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Kids love that, by the way. They love, I mean, genuinely, they want you to enter into their world. I remember like years ago seeing a meme about Minecraft or Roblox or something. Like, if my child says what or Fortnite, like my child says one more thing about insert whatever platform it is, you know, my head's gonna blow my pop off or whatever, you know, and it's it's you know, it's meant to be humorous, but ultimately, like kids really do want to explain all the things about what they're passionate about.

Liliana 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

And when we lean in and show interest, it really does enhance the relationship across the board. Parent-child, therapist, child, you know, peer-to-peer. And yeah, exactly, they exist here. I love that you say that that way because it's so true. They do exist here. So to say, yeah, we're we're gonna, we need to take you out of this space because it's unhealthy. Sure, we can discuss like what is healthy, what is unhealthy, how can we navigate that? And to just make that blanket statement, you are completely removing such an essential aspect of the child's culture. Yeah and their social connections. And I think about that too, that you know, I I recognize that some parents say, you know, you're not going to going to access, you know, digital technologies until whatever age. And absolutely like balance and and limits and rules and all the things. Yes, like uh again, be intentional with your choices. And it doesn't matter if another person is doing something different simultaneously. If we operate from a space of fear and then we inhibit use as a result of the fear, then we're also inadvertently impacting social connectedness and the norms within the present culture for our children.

Competence Without Knowing It All

Maria 20:54

Yeah, I love that, right? And I don't know what you think about this, Maria, but I was thinking my son, when he went to the first university, it was an international university. So every language spoke, every every country was there. So he they the way that they started communicating was through game cancel. They couldn't understand, they had to use Google Translate, but they were playing soccer. And I thought, well, this is genius. But all that to say, how do we help therapists uh utilize this? Because I'm thinking I was listening yesterday to an article, listening to an article yesterday, so they can tell me I don't have time to read anymore. That's another that's another conversation. But they were talking about one of the when people go to look for jobs, one of the questions in the interview is what AI tools are you using? So if you say just chat GBT, that's not gonna cut it anymore. So they want to know how comfortable you are. When let me translate that to all folks here. When we were growing up, they were asking us if we were comfortable with Photoshop, Illustrator, when we were like, Do you guys remember all that crap? Or it was just me? Okay, cool. Um Excel. It was all those applications, that software that we were growing up with, and now they're asking them something completely different. So then let's bring it back to our field. How do we help our therapists, our colleagues be comfortable with this technology and these applications when there's not a lot of training on it? When our associations, plural, all of them, because most of us have multiple credentials, they're not also seeking for. Who is the speaker on this topic and how that we link it to the model so that therapists feel comfortable with it?

Liliana 22:51

Yeah.

unknown 22:51

Yeah.

Conceptualizing Digital Play

Liliana 22:52

I love that. What's coming to mind for me is the the Ted Lasso quote of be curious, not judgmental. If you're unfamiliar with this, like become curious about it. I also often remind both clinicians and parents, they use technology. They play with their technology. It may look different, but I have a hard time finding an adult that doesn't have some sort of game app on their phone for when they're waiting in the pickup line or whatever. And it reminds me back like even before we have what we now call digital technology. Like I know growing up, our family time was around certain TV shows that we all watched together. Like I I am from the era of dial-up. I did have to teach my parents how to use the internet. And you know, and we still, you know, we're in that sandwich generation because we're still like, you know, we grew up with our parents telling us like our online relationships weren't real and be careful. And now I find myself telling my parents the same conversations, like everything that you see online is real. Like some things don't change.

Maria 24:03

I know. Because when you were saying that, do you guys remember when our parents used to tell us do not get in cars, uh sisters cars, and now we use Uber?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Or now just you know, car drives you around, you know, like now just technology is like cool, let's just, you know, go for a ride together. I love we had that because it freaked me out the first time that I got into one.

Liliana 24:25

We had that terrifying experience together. Liliana and I got in a car with no driver, and it was like, what are we doing with our lives?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Share location, share location. I have not had that experience, but yes, I literally was thinking of the same exact thing as you.

Two Ways To Find Diamonds In Minecraft

Maria 24:42

I love so I started naming Chad GBT because my dad was like, You have to be nice, name them. They will remember. And I mean they thank you, say please.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

We use our manners, we're buddies, so if anything happens, we're cool. Okay. I said thank you to you. I said please to you. I, you know, we are we're cool.

Liliana 25:02

I think I think it goes back to that, Recall, of like, you know, our AI is built based on relationships, right, with the technology and ourselves, and ourselves, yes, and I think that I think being able to share that with parents and clinicians of like because they don't want to hear that this is inevitable. If they are scared of this, if this is not their landscape, if they are not gamers, if they don't feel like they're tech savvy, like right, they don't want to maybe face the truth of like your kid goes to pre-K. Pre-K, they are on a screen. My son, I think, was like 18 months when he transformed my parents, my mom's Kindle doesn't speak only Spanish, like it was all in Spanish, and like my husband had to go and undo it. Like they are super savvy. And if you don't even just be curious to stay connected with that, you're going to get left behind. And that is a relationship rupture in my eyes.

Cultural Humility And Therapist Self-Check

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Lennox watched videos on YouTube since he was an infant. And I I can imagine some people are like, no, perhaps listening. But ultimately, his first videos were black, white, and red sensory videos. And he listened to classical music, and it was the cutest thing because it would go, you know, it would it would do and then you know he would go, ah, like he would make a noise with it. Like, oh my gosh, my sweet babe. It's was so sweet. And then as he as his development shifted, then we did different sensory videos. But basically it was just these cute little things bouncing on the screen. And and he would track with his eyes. And I actually even uh had signed him up to do some research through Yale's infant and child development lab. It's not the actual name, apologies. I I don't remember the exact name, but it was through Yale University. And they have kids that they have different different studies at different times, but several of them were you know watching his eye tracking movements and they were, I don't know exactly all that they were looking for, but because we're a participant, we haven't received the results yet. But ultimately they they were they were seeing, you know, if there was an unfamiliar, strange type of situation, how did he respond? And like what how was he tracking? So I mean, the good thing is is they're they're doing research and more information is going to come out. And I think there's a lot that's going on that is beneficial. There's a lot that's going on that can be scary, but I think, yeah, we do need to at some point lean in. And I I I have just added my phone around as like an extra thing that's there. And so it's kind of like synonymous to the concept of like the red button. If you're like the red button is there, you know, don't press it, then they're gonna want to press the red button, right? If if it's if I'm on my phone and I'm like, oh, you can't look at this or whatever, then okay, what is that thing I want?

Liliana 27:54

Yeah.

Final Advice: Experiential Learning

SPEAKER_00 27:54

I'm like, oh, it's here. You can click around, press around. I mean, it's like locked, but he'll click on it and he learned how to like turn the camera on and he'll say, picture, picture, which is so cute. And so, yeah, so just learning. I wanted to to piggyback on some of what you were originally asking, Liliana, that with with like how to incorporate technologies or like feel I guess kind of like lean in a little bit more when we don't have the training and there is the discomfort. It's just another tool. I think it's a perspective shift because uh because there's so much unfamiliarity, there oftentimes seems to be a default to, oh, this is different and I don't know how to do this, I can't do this because I don't know this, versus from a play therapy perspective, for example, this is just another type of toy. The the basic play therapy principles are the same. We're not actually doing different therapy. It's through a different medium, right? So if someone paints versus them using markers versus them using crayons versus using a whiteboard, it's all just different mediums in which we are expressing ourselves. So, yes, I understand that this particular medium is unfamiliar and that's scary. And uh, sure, absolutely there's there's uh there are caveats. At the core, though, in terms of competence and comfort, recognizing we're doing the work in the way that aligns with our frameworks, with the way that we are operating typically in terms of our our holding space or delivery of services or conceptualization of services. It's a little harder to conceptualize digital play when you don't know the platform. So I like to explain I'm a humanistic psychologist. I incorporate non-directive techniques, but I'm not a purist non-directive because I don't follow the purest non-directive thoughts. But I'm humanistic. So I very much follow the child's lead period, but I will ask more questions pertaining to the game, though. I think that's the difference. You know, oftentimes there's this pressure of I need to ask questions about, you know, school or home life. Exactly. Yes. Like let's pros, we need to talk. And there's a lot of times that parents are like, you know, my child is struggling with X, Y, and Z. Talk to them about it. I'm like, that's excellent. I say it a very compassionate way, but like, let's let's talk a little bit more about play therapy and help you, you know, recognize a little bit more about the the core components of play therapy, what we're really doing here, what it looks like from an outside perspective, what's really happening for the child through their perspective. And it helps. But when we're in these unfamiliar spaces, I think that's part that I think is the part that's the most concerning is okay, well, I don't know where to go, but I also don't know how to conceptualize the play. I don't know how to make sense of this. So being able to understand the setting, the characters or avatars, you know, what are certain characteristics that this particular, you know, character has, or like what's the the purpose of the game? How is this client or child playing in this space? It's going to vary. That then becomes clearer when we have more, we have enhanced insight and awareness. And so either if you engage in verbal dialogue with your clients in sessions, then you can ask them about it. Otherwise, you can always go on YouTube University, as I always say, and and check out a video of a gamer playing that game or someone explaining the game or whatever it may be. And then that can enhance your understanding about the space and then ultimately how they're navigating that space and then how to proceed. One additional thing I want to say about that is every child's gonna play a game differently. You do not need to know all there is to know about all the things you aren't going to. You just aren't. I think we just need to accept that now. And I don't like to say that things are impossible, it is impossible for you to know all the things about all the things. Because even if you do know the inner workings of a particular space, again, everyone's gonna play differently. I had a client once that wanted to play Minecraft in session. And I don't know if I shared this last time, if so. Uh well, I'll still share because if someone's listening now and didn't before, if I had shared it, they'll get it now. But uh, because I share this example a lot. But ultimately, a child was playing Minecraft, wanted to look for diamonds. And so I was like, cool, let's look for diamonds. I'm terrible at Minecraft, let's just establish this. Okay. Like I don't really know how to move well. You think it would be simple. I don't know how to move well. I get like I get stuck. I it's tough. Like I don't know, I just don't understand it. But I feel comfortable enough to go into an unfamiliar situation and to stumble through. And it's not about me. It's not about the way I play. It's it's not about that at all. It's about the process, it's about the client's experience. So venture in this space, don't know what I'm doing. They want to look for diamonds. They they tell me, okay, you dig down, you dig down, you dig down, you just keep digging down. So for the whole session, we literally just dug down. Cause I guess with with Minecraft, there's like layers, like any world, right? Like there's different layers. So in multiple ways, actually, literally and figuratively. Anyway, so that was that. And that was the session. And we didn't come back to it, but you know, there's a lot of themes that we could talk about there. Thank you. Another client around the same time also wanted to look for diamonds. And I was like, I'm an expert diamond finder. I was like so excited. I'm like, finally, I know something in Minecraft. I'm like, yes. So they, you know, so they wanted to find diamonds. I'm like, oh, I know how to find diamonds because my clients know that I'm not good at a lot of these spaces, but they appreciate that I'm joining in and they love to teach me. They want to show me all the things. Oh my gosh, they love it. They love being the expert. That is the core of play therapy. Or just play in general for kids. They want to be the experts. How many times are they in a space where they lack power and control and a sense of permissiveness to be who they are? Like, how beautiful to have that. So I'm like, Yes, I know how to find diamonds. Let's do this. And so I told that they was like, oh, well how do you find diamonds? I'm like, you dig down, you dig down, you never do that. And I thought, oh, silly me. I clearly don't know how to play Minecraft still. Like, how do you find diamonds? They say you walk around, you have to find a cave, and then you go in through the cave. It hit me in that moment. It does not matter what we know because everyone's going to do things differently. This is life. This is human. We all navigate spaces in different ways. What is the client experiencing? How are they perceiving self-others in the world? Yeah. And how are they projecting that out through their play? It's going to be different. So we don't need to know the things. What we need to know is what's relevant for that client or that child and meet them there. So I love that example to really solidify that point.

Liliana 34:22

Well, it's no different than the multiple use of a dollhouse. Yeah. Right? Your dollhouse is going to be used in many different ways.

Maria 34:30

It's an open world. Yeah. Yeah. And for all of you listening, that is a perfect example of cultural humility. Yeah. We just don't know. So instead of focusing on what you know, can you be curious? And then just go with it.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Just go with it. It's not about us. We can use our internal gauge as data, right? In part it's our own stuff. Name your stuff. Okay. Your ish, name it. But if if it is the client stuff, we might be absorbing some of the client stuff. So I really try to differentiate. The more I recognize, okay, I am uncomfortable here because I'm not good at this game. This is my own stuff. I'm not good at this game. And I feel like I'm letting the team down. And I never want to let my team down ever. That's my own stuff. So when I'm struggling through like a first-person shooter game, because I also suck at those terribly, my aim is awful. I I like the cozy games. I like the puzzle games. I like the math. Like I my I prefer to be the resource. Yeah, like the hunter and gatherer. Like I love to gain to gather the resources. That's aligned with me as a person. I love to give resources. That's why we're here, right? But but yeah, I can go on.

Maria 35:39

I I digress, but I love this because uh in games, I love patterns. I'm your girl to solve shit because I love patterns. I can tell you the things that you do not pay attention because that's what I'm paying attention to. And I think we all have different gifts. This is lovely. We can keep going on forever. But for what will be the last thing that you want to share to therapists out there when it comes to digital world and digital parenting?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

The first thing I thought when you said that was experiential learning. Because that really is uh the focus for anything that we're learning within the expressive therapies, is to actually like literally or figuratively get your hands in it and to experience it yourself because there's power in that experience. And I and like I just mentioned the example, like it wasn't until I had that experience where I was like, oh my gosh, I now have this insight. Uh and it enhanced my the way I navigate these spaces with my clients, I guess is the best way to say that. So I think just experiencing and and having a game on your phone, like you were just talking about, Maria, like have a game on your phone and and engage in some play and enjoy, you know, lean in, play with your your children. And or if you for clinicians, if you don't have children, like just play with your inner child, you know, like uh or your partner or your friends or family or you know, or even entering into a gaming, a live gaming space, and you don't have to know anybody and you can just play. There's a lot of spaces now that have transitioned to to live spaces, so you don't even have to have you know somebody close to you to play with, but try it out, feel it, experience it. I think that's gonna shift the way that you view things, at least ever so slightly, if not drastically.

Maria 37:25

Yeah, we're so lucky to have you in our field. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Closing Gratitude And Encouragement

Liliana 37:32

Thank you. Yeah, you're such a good and we always just have such a blast. Yeah, I I can't wait till we're all kind of in the same space, even if it's a virtual space. We need to set up a virtual play date soon. Um but Rachel, thank you so much for being such a leading voice when this is not always easy to comprehend or accepted because our field is older. And they're not always led by, we know we're not always led by people who are comfortable about this. So thank you for being a resource and a voice and just so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yes, thank you for having me. I love our time here. And again, thanks everyone for tuning in. Be kind to yourselves, make time for playing your day. Yes. If you're doing better, then you probably are giving yourself credit for, okay? Yes, yes, in life, I just mean blanket statement, just hanging on. Thank you. Absolutely until next time. Bye.