Welcome and Introduction

Corkie Bolton

Welcome to Jewelry Making Tips with Metalsmith Society , the podcast for anyone passionate about jewelry making . I'm your host , Corkie Bolton , and on this podcast I will discuss jewelry making tips , social media marketing , running a jewelry business , along with insights from special guests in the jewelry industry who share their expertise and stories . Whether you've been making jewelry for a while or just starting your journey , this podcast is your go-to resource . So grab your tools , dust off your workbench and join me . In today's episode , I will be discussing pricing your jewelry and common mistakes many jewelers make with my very special guest ,J essica Rose . Jessica Rose is the award-winning founder of Jewelers Academy , where she and her team have helped over a million people learn to make jewelry through in-person and online courses over the past two decades . Jessica welcome .

Jessica Rose

Oh , thank you so much . It's a lovely intro . Thanks for having me . I'm excited to talk about this topic . It's one of my favorites .

Corkie Bolton

Yes , you're very passionate about it and we'll dive in a little bit later to about your own podcast . But could you just tell my audience , for those that haven't heard of you , they've been probably living under a rock I mean just kidding , but you know . Can you tell them a little bit about your background ?

Jessica Rose

Yeah , of course , yeah . So I absolutely love jewelry and I love making jewelry and I love making money from doing the with making jewelry . That's kind of . Who does it ? Yeah it , yeah , I mean it's great .

Jessica Rose

Um , so I started my jewelry business when I was 19 . I was studying and I kind of saw my future ahead and I felt a little bleak about it and I was like I don't think I just want to work for someone else and do something that I'm not passionate about . So I left my job at the time and my uni course and I think everyone thought I was having a breakdown . But I saw someone selling jewelry at a fair and I was like , oh , my goodness , this is what I want to do . And it was one of those light bulb moments of like this is what I want to do .

Jessica Rose

But the problem is I didn't know how to make jewelry and I didn't know how to run a business , and I was 19 . So I was like how do I begin ? And that's where the journey started for me in terms of like going to lots of different courses , but I struggled to find the courses that I needed to learn what I was doing . So when I did eventually find it . I started teaching as well and people would say this is great , where can we learn the next level , like where can we do the next thing ?

Jessica Rose

And eventually it turned into a jewellery school which was in London , was called London Jewellery School in Hatton Garden , where we trained over 40,000 jewellers across 13 years , which was so much fun . And then in COVID , the school had to unfortunately close down , but luckily we had started the Jewellers Academy , which was our online community and platform for our courses , and so everyone kind of came and joined us there and we started doing diplomas and all sorts of training , just helping people train to become jewelers and build profitable jewelry businesses . And yeah , haven't looked back since , so it's been a lot of fun .

Corkie Bolton

That's amazing and I feel there's a lot of parallels between you know both of us and the work that we do . You know I'm super passionate about making and selling my own jewelry , but I'm also just deeply passionate about helping others learn and helping them in general . So I'm excited for our conversation today , for sure , and for people that are you know , right away going to google jess's academy it is jeweler , jeweler's academy with two l's yeah yeah , welcome americans and people from all over the world who have lots .

Jessica Rose

We had to make a decision . At the beginning we were like , how do we spell jewelry ? We just went with it , but yeah , everyone , everyone .

Corkie Bolton

Yeah , I know I love it . So you know , one thing that I thought would be awesome to talk about it's at the forefront of jewelers' minds right now is how you know , we've seen the price of gold specifically increased by pretty much $1,000 in the last year , since April of 2024 . And I haven't been watching quite as closely , but silver , too , is quite expensive . I mean , I think when I was in college . I mean , I don't want to , this isn't like a quote , but it might've been like $7 an ounce , and now it's 30 , right ?

Corkie Bolton

So you know , in today's episode we are going to talk about you know , your formulas and techniques for pricing , and considerations and common mistakes . But at the beginning of the episode I just wanted to have you share your thoughts and we can have a conversation about you know what jewelers can be doing right now to reevaluate their pricing and maybe even having tips on how to sort of pivot ,

Corkie Bolton

you know , with increased costs . So , yeah , take it away . And I know I asked you a bunch of things all at once there , but no that's fine .

Jessica Rose

I think , when stuff like this happens , there can be a lot of anxiety because we think , oh , my goodness , something's changed , what do I need to do ? And this happens in business all the time . I think it's really important to remember , like this is the current thing , but there's always something Like do you remember when we all had to put cookies on our website and then there was GDPR , and then there's an economic crisis and then there's a war ? So I always explain to people like there's always something , and I think what helps me a lot is not worrying too much about it first of all . So , yes , being aware of it and we can , we'll talk about that much about it first of all . So , yes , being aware of it and we can , we'll talk about that . But remember that your business , if you're running a handmade jewelry business , you're probably going to be doing it for 10 years , 20 years , 30 years or more , and you're building those long term relationships with your clients who trust you , who come to you for you , not because of the price of the pieces , and so I guess my first thing I would say is you know , try not to . I know it's hard , but try not to worry , because people don't buy jewellery based on the price , and this is one of the main things that we need to kind of get across .

Jessica Rose

I think often when you're nervous or you're not getting enough customers , there's an eject reaction I need to change my pricing , I need to lower it , I need to be competitive , but in the race to the bottom , no one is going to win . There will always be someone who's doing something similar than you that's cheaper than you . So in in jewelry , it's all about the relationship you have with your customers , and you'll know this , corgi , from your business . But I don't go to the cheapest person for for things like that , for a luxury item , I will go to the person that I like . That I know that . I trust that . I've been to before and I will get joy out of supporting them , even if it costs more , because people who buy handmade jewelry are not looking for the cheapest option , they're looking to feel good about their purchase .

Jessica Rose

So I think , having said that , with the gold situation in mind , it is a good idea to keep an eye on it , and if the gold price drops by and if it goes up , you know , sometimes we can wait a little bit , but it's something that's so out of our control that I always just encourage people to focus on building your brand , building your relationships , building your skills , doing your training and just stay in your lane , you know , and try not to make any knee jerk reactions like I need to cut my prices because gold has gone down or I need to cut my prices because gold is going up .

Jessica Rose

If you want , you can increase your prices as the price of gold goes up , but I tend to I mean , I don't know how many people hold loads of gold stock but I tend to you know , make pieces of gold like to order or maybe have a little bit of stock and then if I can get a little bit more profit out of it , then brilliant . But there's no hard and fast rules with that . I think the most important thing is to remember the long term vision that you want to build these relationships with your customers . You want to build trust , you want to feel like you have integrity in what you're doing , and the rest it kind of figures itself out .

Corkie Bolton

I mean you really touched on so many great points and there's a little bit of foreshadowing here about common mistakes that jewelers make . Certainly , underpricing 100% is a common mistake and you know , when I reflect on my own gold jewelry business , I know that my hand to probably put me in a more appropriate price point . And the other thing that you said that is so true is , as artists we're kind of obsessing over our pricing a bit but for our customers it is that deep connection , it's buying a piece of your story , it's connecting with you as an artist . And you know , for a lot of my customers I don't actually think that they're , you know , too concerned about a piece being , you know , 100 to even $500 more , for you know the particular value that they see . So I think that that's all great advice and to not panic , to not worry , to not have anxiety always hard to follow . That I think you know we all as small business owners , you know we're very much in it in the day to day , but I also think that's great advice .

Corkie Bolton

What would you say about the artist who perhaps has an inventory of gold work and you know they're looking at , okay , their cost of goods sold when they purchased their materials . You know gold was at a much lower price . Would you say it would be advisable to still continue to price you know , for those pieces ? Adjust for the current market Because when those pieces sell you'll have to buy more metal inventory . Can you talk about that ?

Jessica Rose

I think , I think why not , you know ? Because it's a great chance to improve your profit margins . So if , yeah , if you bought some gold and it was maybe like a thousand dollars , and now that gold is worth two thousand , then it's a good idea to go in and adjust , um , but if you don't , you know , don't feel too bad about it . Like , we all make mistakes with pricing as well . So I I think it's there's something about giving yourself some some kind of grace as well , because we're running , we're doing so many things in running a business . But certainly it's a good idea to adjust . But I wouldn't adjust the other way If the price of gold drops . I probably wouldn't . It's hard to say . It depends how much inventory you kind of have , I think . But the most important thing is it's better to over . It depends how much inventory you kind of have , I think , um , but the most important thing is it's better to overprice . I don't think I've ever seen a jeweler overprice , um , it's always underpricing . So I would review my prices at least every six months and sort of think okay , what am we going to talk about this ? But I always say that pricing is an art , not a science .

Jessica Rose

So we can look at numbers , but you also have to feel confident in what you're doing in order to sell it , or at least be able to fake it till you make it a little bit with the confidence .

Jessica Rose

And also , I think , when you're working with high end , you know your customers . So if they've come to you for a long time and you've got a relationship with them and you have some room to you know , some wiggle room , you might say , look , my prices have gone up . But because you're a loyal customer , I'm going to split the difference for this one , but for the next time it is going to go up . So it can be a real opportunity to have a conversation with your customer about an open , honest conversation about what's happening and how you're helping them . But you're also helping yourself , because as a customer , I don't want to feel like I'm exploiting the person I'm buying from . I want it to be a win-win . I want it to be your business is growing and I'm getting a good sort of situation . So I think when we can communicate , that that's probably the best place to be in .

Corkie Bolton

Absolutely . Let's start up with just talking about why is pricing so important and why is it so hard for us , why , why is it so hard ?

Jessica Rose

Yes . Well , I think it's so hard because the personal connection we have with our jewelry . So when we're putting our jewelry out there , we've literally put our blood , sweat and tears sometimes into the pieces . And I think every jeweler's fear is someone saying why is it so expensive ? That's too much . You know , and we sort of feel it inside . You're like , oh my goodness , are they saying

Why Pricing Is Difficult for Artists

Jessica Rose

that I'm not good enough ? Is my work not good enough ? I know lots of people that I work with , even work in sales , but when it comes to selling your own stuff , it's a whole different story because of that emotional kind of connection that we have to our pieces .

Jessica Rose

But the other thing I think is that creatives and this is a stereotype , but it is a stereotype for a reason have invested their time and energy in exploring their creativity and learning and training and often not always , but often we're not super interested in , like , financial spreadsheets , you know , all of that kind of more technical , logical brain kind of stuff , and so I think we need to be a bit easy with ourself on that and say , okay , maybe this isn't my natural strength . However , you don't have to be an accountant or have a maths degree to be able to price your jewelry well , you just need some simple ideas to understand to help you with everything in your business . Simple things like understanding what is profit , where's your break even the things you would learn in like a basic business studies course . But if you've never done it before , you're not meant to know how to do it .

Jessica Rose

And I think with jewelry we know we need to train . We're like , oh , I need to , I need to see someone else do it , I need to learn . But often with business stuff we think I should just know how to do that without having studied it or having anyone told us . So I always say to people you know , don't feel bad if this isn't your natural comfort zone , but it is a skill you can learn . And once you've got it , then you're sorted .

Corkie Bolton

So , yeah , when you are advising your students . I know today we're going to talk about demi-fine jewelry , which is like silver and maybe has some you know , precious , semi-precious stones in it , potentially maybe even some gold accents , and then I also wanted to talk about fine jewelry . So maybe let's start for our silversmiths out there and you know those folks using those materials . What's your general formula for pricing for Demi Fine ? Yes , okay , great .

Jessica Rose

Yeah . So this is the formula that I start with . If someone's new to pricing and I think for a formula it needs to be simple enough to not overcomplicate things , but have a certain level of complexity so that it actually works . And of course , the formula is like the skeleton it's just the starting point and then you need to adjust based on your business , your relationships , all sorts of things . But the formula that I like to use to start with is starting with the material costs .

Jessica Rose

So just a word on material costs . We have to be careful that we are including everything and even things like the shipping for the materials to get to you , because those little things , we can look at it and think , okay , I've just used this much of silver , but how much sheet of silver did I need ? And I include my scraps in that because , yes , I can recycle and reuse it , but I need to buy it in order to make the piece and perhaps I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't need to make the piece . So I use the scraps , generally speaking , as kind of profit . So materials , including every single bit of material that you can think of , and as you develop and learn and grow , you'll learn more about what your materials are . Um , then add your time . So this is your kind of labor costs . And again it can . You know I've seen people see these formulas and think what does that even mean ? So this is the time it took to make the piece , and if a piece takes me three hours , but sometimes it takes me four , I will charge for four . So if it's I'm not going to charge a really rushed amount , the quickest I could ever do it , I'm going to charge for what I'm likely to do it in so that I'm not stressed about about time in my business . So I've got the materials plus the time .

Jessica Rose

So whatever that figure is , add those two together . Then I'll times it by a markup . So the standard markup that we start with is two , but this could also be 2.5 . I usually go between two and 2.5 , just depending on how it comes out the other end . And then after that that cost that you have , you'll add on any extras . So in the UK we have hallmarking , which is quite an additional cost , but also things like your packaging . If you're included in that in the price , I would add that in extras . I wouldn't do a markup on packaging and any taxes or anything like that would go at the end . So we've almost got these two brackets . We've got the bracket of the formula where we're marking up where we're doubling , and the bracket where we're not . And all of that . Sorry , that's the formula , so I'll say it quicker , in a more succinct way .

Corkie Bolton

Wait , can I just interrupt ? This is just a curiosity . How much does hallmarking cost ? Oh well , not to digress , but like I'm just fascinated with that because we don't do that here it can really vary , but the prices are going up all the time .

Jessica Rose

Um , so for a piece it might be like three to six pounds , but then you need to stir . Um , if you were doing just one piece , it could cost up to 20 pounds . But if you sent in like 20 pieces , it would go down per item the number of pieces . So if you've got like a collection , you'd send it all in . But if you sent in like 20 pieces , it would go down per item the number of pieces . So if you've got like a collection , you'd send it all in . But if you're doing , say , a gold commission and it's just one piece , that can be up to like 50 pounds , including postage , packaging backwards . So it's a definite additional cost . Oh , my goodness .

Corkie Bolton

And also just quick clarifying question . Goodness , and also just quick clarifying question . This I know you're going to go back in and more briefly kind of go through the formula , but are we talking about how to arrive at a wholesale or retail price ?

Jessica Rose

So this is my formula that I use for selling direct to the customer , so it's not for selling through shops and galleries . It's not for selling . Yeah , very good question . So it's your , it's your , it's your all your materials plus your time . Add those together times two plus any extras , equals your kind of , equals your price . But you obviously you don't have to stick to that exact price . But that's where we start . It's a really good starting point . Um , and

Pricing Formula for Demi-Fine Jewelry

Jessica Rose

why do we mark up ? I think is a really important question to answer .

Jessica Rose

So the markup is a simple way of covering all the overheads in your business . So these are things like your tools , your training , your electricity . You know everything . Now you can get more detailed and go through and do a whole budget for your business , but it can get very complicated very quickly . So an easy way is to say , okay , let's just times it by two or times it by 2.5 . And what I usually recommend is try it for six months and see what happens to your profit . If your profit isn't where it needs to be , add on 10% . If it's working , great , because every business is slightly different . So we want a formula , because we want a structure , but we also have to be flexible in terms of being like well , this business is different , this business needs more profit in , or this business actually has great profit margins . So that's the starting point .

Corkie Bolton

And I just wanted to add to one thing that I was missing in my pricing was consumables , and that is sometimes also like solder . I mean solder is , you know , gold solder , silver solder . That is an actual like asset to your business . It's metal , but you know the solder flux pickle , like all those things that are consumed in the studio . I've started working in a fee , not that I want to get down , you know , in the weeds with all of this , but just mentioning things that I've also learned over the years . And for my jewelry business I pay myself a salary and it is important to reflect the labor in your cogs when you're showing you know what your cost of goods is for tax purposes . Can you talk ?

Jessica Rose

about that ? Yeah , absolutely . I think it's great that you include consumables . I would probably put them in material costs , but I think what you're touching on , which is really important , is that the longer you run your business , the more you know it , the more these kind of formulas evolve and you can actually get them like stretch them out and make them longer and add in like this is my marketing cost , this is my , you know , this is that , this is the other , Because it's so hard to do that at the beginning , because you just don't know . So you start with something a little more basic . But I love that you're sort of becoming more aware of what you're using and thinking okay , this is how I'm going to account for all of that .

Corkie Bolton

And sorry I can't remember the other question you asked . So I think one important thing as a jewelry business is to show you know your cost of goods in your inventory for tax purposes . Right , because this is money that's , you know , invested in your business but hasn't sold yet . It's an asset . Can you talk about that a little bit ? I know I'm kind of throwing the whole tax thing out . I know we can't speak to you , know everyone's tax situation , but just generally speaking .

Jessica Rose

Absolutely yeah . So I think something that's really important for , uh , for any business owner to know is to understand the basics of , like , how finances work in a business . Um , and if you feel like really nervous about this stuff , it really helps to just go on like a one day finance for small business course , just to get the basics down . I did this early on and I was like , oh , that makes a lot more sense . So little things like , okay , so what are cost of goods ? So cost of goods are anything that you need to make the piece . So , for example , if I'm making a ring and I need to buy the silver for the ring , that is the cost of the goods I'm . Also , for that ring , I need to spend an hour making it . That time is a cost of the good . Now , if I needed to make 10 rings this is a good way to understand costs of goods that would times by 10 exactly . So the silver would be , I'd need 10 bits of silver and the hour would be 10 hours . I mean , okay , maybe you could do it in a different way , but let's just say for this example it's going to be 10 hours , whereas a hammer is not a cost of a good , because to make 10 rings I don't need 10 hammers , I can use the same hammer . So that would go into overhead . So I think starting to understand what cost of good is and what your overheads are and it doesn't make it easy that there's often five different terms for the same thing , so overheads can also be called fixed costs . And then there's also understanding the terms of sales , which is money into your business , which is different to profit , which we'll come on to in just a moment . So sales is money in , revenue is also money in , it's just exactly the same term .

Jessica Rose

All these things are so confusing at the beginning . What do all these things mean ? And then , in terms of profit , we have gross profit . So gross profit and I'm sorry if this is hurting anyone's brain because it is a lot of financial talk , but maybe some of it will go in if it's new is when you take all of your sales , so your revenue , and you minus your cost of goods . So that's minusing those raw materials and the labor . It's not minusing your website fees , your hammers , you know all the other things . So once we minus all those things , the overheads , that's when we get net profit . And for a jewelry business in our industry A standard healthy net profit is 20% or above .

Jessica Rose

So if you're below 20% , it's something to look at . You definitely need to be looking at increasing your prices and or reducing your costs . Gross profit a good general figure is around 60% . So that's healthy . Yeah , just to give an overview . But I know it can get confusing , especially listening to yeah and no . That's healthy . Yeah , just to give an overview , but I know it can get confusing , especially .

Corkie Bolton

Yeah and no . That's a great explanation , and I think , just to really simplify it though , if a ring is one hundred dollars and my cost of goods on the ring labor materials , everything else was 30 . Profiting 70 , right , and that is something that's looked at when submitting your taxes , because you didn't just make a hundred dollars . You know , those were some of the expenses that your business took on , so it's important to track all of this . So , yeah , so thanks for touching upon that . Let's let's . There's so much to discuss .

Corkie Bolton

I know , I mean it's like it's like once you just keep . I could keep opening cans of worms here . Hey , jewelers , while we're all about crafting treasures at the bench , let's talk about something that can spark creativity in the little makers in your life , because every great artist starts somewhere . The Toybox Alpha 2 is the ultimate one-touch 3D printer for kids , and it's packed with so much fun . Imagine your kiddos designing and printing their own toys while you're busy at your bench .

Corkie Bolton

Faster speeds , better durability and a massive catalog of over 7,000 toys means endless possibilities for creativity . If you want to go beyond the catalog , your kids or , let's be real you can upload custom designs and watch them come to life . Plus , toybox uses non-toxic , parent-approved materials , so no messy surprises . And here's the best part Listeners of my podcast can save using code METALSMITHSOCIETY at checkout . My podcast can save using code METALSMITHSOCIETY at checkout . My kids absolutely love their Toy Box and I know yours will too . Ready to bring your imagination to life , learn more about the Toy Box Alpha 2 and snag your savings at toyboxcom . Slash metalsmithsociety and use promo code metalsmithsociety , because creative minds , big or small , deserve the best tools . Let's talk a little bit about your fine jewelry formula .

Fine Jewelry Pricing Strategy

Jessica Rose

Oh , I love pricing fine jewelry and I love fine jewelry . It's awesome . So with fine jewelry , we want a higher profit margin . We are taking bigger risk because we're using more expensive materials , so your profit should be higher with fine jewelry . That's a good place to start . So it's a similar formula but there's a little bit of a difference . So what I do with the fine jewelry formula is that we take all the materials that are I'm going to call them expensive . You can choose what that number is . It might be like over $500 . It might be over 350 . Anything that you feel like . Okay , this is a lot .

Jessica Rose

So buying 18 karat gold , all of that's going to be in this expensive category . Diamonds are probably going to be in there , unless they're really tiny , in which case you might choose not to put them in there . So we do a different markup for that category . So let's say I've bought $1,000 worth of diamonds and gold . If I did my 2.5 markup that I do on the other jewelry , that would go from 1,000 to 2,500 before I did anything , which is quite a big step and probably will take your jewelry somewhere . That's a little bit too high in terms of the pricing . I mean , if you can get it , go for it . I'm never against , you know , making profit in your business , but generally speaking it may feel a bit out there .

Jessica Rose

So I will change the markup on just those materials and the rest of the formula is the same . So a general markup would probably be 1.5 . If it was a lot like I once , we once did a piece at the jewelry school and someone , it was all platinum and it was like a 60 year anniversary and there were 60 diamonds in this giant platinum ring , so it was , you know , thousands and thousands and thousands . If it's sort of 10,000 , something like that , then your markup might be 1.2 or 1.3 . So you're still , there's still a 2000 pound markup on that , 3000 , sorry dollars dollar markup on that .

Jessica Rose

So it's sort of saying okay , I need a markup on my materials , but it doesn't need to be as big because the cost is cost is more . So therefore I've got , you know , I've got plenty . So to make it more succinct , on the fine jewelry , the markup on the expensive elements would be around 1.5 and then the rest of the formula is the same . So I just take that out of the formula , do that on its own and add it at the end . So it's essentially just treating the more expensive elements differently .

Corkie Bolton

Yes and so , and I would just say this is again someone that's selling direct to customer . So I actually had a career milestone recently because a store placed a wholesale order for my gold work . It's a local boutique in Rhode Island called Muse . I'm so excited to be working with them . I always , jessica , this is what I always wanted when I came out of college , like I'll arrive when I'm in all these boutiques . And of course , people that know my story know that . You know that's not how things went , but it's really amazing . Now , as I've been , I've truly found my voice with my work and to now have this first wholesale order where this store is investing in my work . You know it's . It's not consignment , they're purchasing from me .

Corkie Bolton

So one thing I've done all along with my work is that consideration of wholesale , even if I wasn't doing it . Because for those listening that think , maybe one day I would want to do that , you know , if I have , my cost of goods on a gold ring is a thousand . If I only even double that , that means that the store is going to get 50% right . So $1,000 cost . I double it , it's $2,000 . Now I'm back with $1,000 again .

Corkie Bolton

I haven't profited any and this is where we touch back upon the art of it all , because I think , at the end of the day , to be able to create work that doesn't become so exponentially expensive that you're outside of the market , you then have to start to look at pieces and really say , okay , is this piece appropriate for wholesaling , is there a way that I can bring my cost down a little bit without affecting the integrity of my work ? And it's also been fascinating because , as I've fulfilled this order , you know I have my cost of goods and my profit and some pieces are just inherently more profitable . Yeah , and you know , and it's just a really interesting thing , like , and that's there's this variability there . So I just wanted to touch on that because I know that there are people that are like oh well , one day I might want to wholesale . What would be your advice to them if they were pricing for direct to consumer and then maybe there was an opportunity to consign or to sell at a retail boutique ?

Jessica Rose

Yes , absolutely Well . First of all , congratulations , because I love this for you and you've worked so hard on it . Like I've been seeing your stuff and it's just amazing . So thank you , excited .

Jessica Rose

But yeah , so in terms of wholesale , you're right , it is , there are very different considerations . But , yeah , so in terms of wholesale , you're right , it is , there are very different considerations and , like you said , generally speaking , with wholesale pieces , the profit margins need to be a lot higher than if we're selling direct to the customer . So the shop needs to make money , and so do we , and let's , for argument's sake , say it's a 50-50 split , which is quite a good place to start from . So , with this thousand pound ring , you've got your thousand , they've got their thousand and I , generally speaking , don't advise people to have the same pieces that they're selling direct to customer , that they're selling through wholesale . Sometimes it works , but if you've just been doing it direct to the customer and then someone's asked you to do wholesale , most jewelers will have a wholesale collection which will be different , which you talked about which needs to have a higher profit margin . And the way we get a higher profit margin is either lowering the material costs or lowering the time , and most jewelers go for the time . So we keep the material costs . But we think , okay , how

Transitioning to Wholesale

Jessica Rose

can I make this quicker ? So this is where other elements might come in . Depends on your business model . But for most people working a lot in wholesale it'll be things like having rings and things cast , perhaps asking them to polish it up , know , and then you're just doing the setting or something . So it's finding ways to make it work where you're going to make money and the shop owner is going to make money , and yeah , so I find with most jewelers they need almost like a separate collection for wholesale . But it doesn't mean that all the work that you've done is lost , because that's what attracted the you , what attracted the wholesale business to you , and they want something like that . But they also understand the business model that you know . If you're , if that ring , let's say , you charge 2000 for it and now it's going to be 4000 . Maybe that works , because maybe the shop has like a certain brand and they're able to charge that , or they're in a certain location , has like a certain brand and they're able to charge that , or they're in a certain location , and so their customers will expect that , but maybe it doesn't and therefore you think okay , so for 2000, .

Jessica Rose

What can I do ? Am I switching from 18 carat to nine carat ? Am I , you know ? Am I getting it cast ? Is there laser cutting involved ? Is there some sort of quicker process so that there is profit for all sides ? There's lots of ways to do it , but I think what a lot of jewelers struggle with is thinking I just need to take my current business model and just double it , whereas for me it's a totally different business model . Like everything is different and that's fine . We can embrace that and enjoy it , enjoy it and and find it as a new challenge in our business , which which you're doing already , which is awesome .

Corkie Bolton

Yes , and I agree with everything you're saying , and I think one thing that's helped me in my own business is that a lot of my pieces are one of a kind they're hand engraved and they're in higher karat gold and I'm also sourcing different various gemstones that are , you know , precious , and so that is also helpful . I think that I get the question a lot from a lot of members of our community with their silver businesses . You know it'd be nice to be in stores and you know I say you know same thing , sister . You know like I'm like it's great because you know I say you know same thing , sister . You know like I'm like it's great because you know you're able to in bulk , get that return on your investment but you are making less profit , people being able to come see my work in person , try it on , and I'm also doing custom engagement and wedding bands now . So now there's a brick and mortar where I can meet with clients over at that store and get that support . So there's endless benefits there .

Corkie Bolton

But I think for those starting out , you know the thinking direct to customer and doing markets and pop-ups and you know , do you want to touch upon that a little bit , not so much to do with pricing . But just like for those listening that are like , okay , this is overwhelming , right , because part of this is part of this podcast , today is talking also about profits , right ? So , yeah , what are your thoughts ?

Jessica Rose

talking also about profits , right ? So , yeah , what are your thoughts ? Yeah , well , I think that it is much harder to make a profit in wholesale , so I definitely wouldn't start that Like . I remember my first year in business I was like I want to be in all these shops and galleries . And then I did the math and I was like I've done loads of work and I've not made any money , and loads of people bought jewelry from me and I was like , huh , okay , this , this . So it was almost like a vanity thing for me at that point of just like I want to be in all these places and I started to realize that the business models that tend to do the best are actually the ones with the less overheads . Um , one-of-a-kind pieces perhaps , but , um , having less customers and them , them , paying more money . So you , you know , if you want to make I'm not great at doing maths on the spot and there's 12 months in a year , so it's not easy but a certain amount per year and you divide that by how many pieces that you're going to be making .

Jessica Rose

I think sometimes the most profitable business model is just doing kind of bespoke , high end commission work , and I see that happen a lot for jewelers . But it's not all about profit , Like we also have goals and things that we just want to do , like cool stuff that we want to do , like I want my jewelry here . And there's also long term benefits , like you spoke about , in terms of having that physical space because people can come , they get to know you . You're building that trust . None of us are in this because we're trying to make the most money , otherwise we would have chosen something else , I'm sure , but I think for me it's that balance of achieving the things that I want to do and making money , so that there's both . And there are some things that I do because I want to do them and I know they're not going to have a huge profit margin in . And then there are the ones that make the money and I love I can't remember where I heard it , but it really rang true to me this idea that all you need is one bestseller . And if you have one bestseller that feeds your business and that could be a collection , it could be an individual piece , it could be a product , it could even be a service , it could be like your wedding , wedding rings of bread and butter and that allows you to do all your other things that you want to do . And I think for a business , as long as you've got something strong that brings the money in , then you can play with the rest . But yeah , for people just starting out I would say don't worry about wholesale , don't worry too much . You know about fine jewelry . It's more .

Jessica Rose

The first year in business is often just about experimenting . So I love your idea of , like , try some fairs , go out there and meet some people , have some conversations , start building those relationships . I also always say it takes at least three years to build a profitable jewelry business and that's a minimum . So don't expect profit in your first year . Use it as an opportunity to learn , to grow . If you're working at the same time , it's great because that can fund what you're doing , um , and then , yeah , give yourself time . It takes . Any business takes time , um , but jewelry is a trust-based business so it takes a little bit longer . But it also means that once you have a loyal customer that trusts you , they're going to keep coming back and they'll recommend other people , um , and it kind of has that snowball effect . So it's it's kind of like don't give up before the magic happens type situation , like keep going with it .

Corkie Bolton

I mean , and I'm proof of that , and you know , for those that have been following our community for a long time , I started Metal Smith Society in 2019 . I keep forgetting what year it was and my jewelry business . I started getting really back into that , you know , just working on it slowly since 2016 . And I have to say , I've probably found my most success in terms of finding my voice and , you know , using the skills that I've worked so hard to obtain . I mean , I attend minimally one full 40-hour course on engraving every year and often I go two weeks every year and so , stone setting , engraving , working , working , working on it and it's like now I'm in my ninth year , but not doing it full time , obviously , with everything else I have going on being a mom my mom , you know all the stuff , all my other things . I'm actually getting a puppy next week too . Oh , my mom , you know all the stuff , all my other things . I'm actually getting a puppy next week too . Oh , my goodness . But like it's only in the last year that I'm like picking up momentum . So it's not a rate , it's not a sprint . You know , as they say , and I also , I think it's perfectly appropriate to recommend don't quit your day job , make sure you have insurance and support . And you know , my message to people that maybe aren't in a partnership and they're doing stuff out on their own is like you can make it happen too . You know , um , it's . It's slowly but surely just adding . You know learning and you know putting things out there and trying your best , and it's . It is a slow process and I've seen a lot of jewelers that took them a decade to really become like a full-time . You know , situation Um , one one thing I wanted to touch on , and then we're going to go through some , uh , some other bits , as you called them , before we sign off here .

Corkie Bolton

But I also just wanted to touch upon , going back to this , the artistry of pricing . One thing I do think is fairly important but you have to do it appropriately is you do need to see what your peers are doing , but that doesn't mean you go to Etsy and you search , because there are certain markets that we know that people are severely undercutting . In fact , right now on Etsy you could just order rings in 14 karat gold that are it would be cheaper to buy from this artist than to buy from like . I could buy from this artist the solid gold rings and then melt them down , and I would be at a tremendous profit over current gold value . And I don't know if that's some people haven't caught up or you know , but we know certain marketplaces like that are very undercut in the pricing and we know you are very against that and I'm very against that .

Corkie Bolton

So don't look there . But you might want to look at some boutiques that maybe you really value the artists there and you feel that your work is similar , to just get a sense of whether you are along the same lines and hopefully your product is unique though . I mean , that's what we're striving for , right , so there shouldn't be like , oh , I make earrings just like those . Like you

Understanding Business Costs

Corkie Bolton

know , like you should be bringing your own thing to the table . But can you just touch upon that a little bit and your advice on including , you know , thoughts of what other people are doing without getting overwhelmed ?

Jessica Rose

Yeah , absolutely , I think it's . It's an important thing to think about , and I think everyone has their own way of doing this as well . I always just try and listen to myself in business and sort of be like , has this been good for me ? Like , has this been useful for me ? Um , I agree with you , like it can be useful to know a bit about the landscape . And almost the way I like to do it is just building community and just knowing other jewelers and sort of hearing things .

Jessica Rose

Some jewelers and people love to do a competitor analysis where they kind of highlight maybe five similar , you know , in quotes , competitors and see what they're pricing all of that . And I don't have anything against that , but for my personality style it it just doesn't , it's not good for me . Like I just start thinking they're all better than me , I've done something , like all this kind of stuff . But but I have people that I work with that are like , oh , I'm so interested in how they do it . So I think it's about listening to yourself and what is giving you what you need ? Um , I always believe in like you can create your what you want . So you know it almost . I'm very much like it doesn't matter what's happening in the economy , it doesn't matter what other people are doing Like . There are billions and billions of dollars spent every year on jewelry billions . The global jewelry market is , I think it's over $300 billion a year . So you can price whatever you want and you can find customers for it . And I think once we take that bigger view , it really is freeing because it's like , oh , I can do what I want and , you know , nobody else is looking around and saying , oh , that's , that's too expensive , I'm not going to pay that for that , and if they are , they're definitely not going to be your customer . So with that freedom , I then just focus on , like my own integrity , like what are my values ? Okay , I don't . I don't want to overcharge people , but I want to make a good profit . I want to have a good lifestyle . I only want to work about five hours a day . Also , you know , want to have time to do like exercise and eat well and play with the puppy , all of the things you know . I don't want to be doing like 16 hours kind of into all the workaholism stuff . So it's .

Jessica Rose

I think that it's good to have a little look , but then to just put it away and be like right , I have that knowledge , I kind of have an awareness of the landscape .

Jessica Rose

But it's not that important because people buy from you because of their relationship with you , because of their connection with you and , like you said , I'm sure if you increase your prices by $500 overnight nobody would say anything , because they like you and they like your jewelry and they like the combination of the two .

Jessica Rose

And it's not even about the product that much , it is really about the person , like yes , it is great to have good jewelry and it is great to have a signature style , which you kind of touched on , where someone can look at it and be like that's a corgi bolton piece , I know , I recognize , like the real precise engraving I've seen , I see the training , it's all happening , um , but really they are , you know , they like , they have a desire for the piece and they like the connection with the company , which is the individual , and the pricing is just about whether they can afford it or not . And if they're looking at , you know , 18 karat gold , they can afford it . So I don't look too hard , but I do . I do understand the need to sort of , especially at the beginning , just get your bearings and kind of think , okay , this is , this is where I'm at with things . And kind of think , okay , this is where I'm at with things .

Corkie Bolton

Amazing . I think we should close with some of the common pricing pitfalls . Just bullet list them and then maybe we can also start before that with just understanding some of the overheads that you might not have considered before . Right , so we already talked about you know , you have packaging , shipping . You have maybe other marketing materials , like I have little jewelry care cards that I put in my stuff . Let's , let's go through some of those real quick and then we'll talk about a few pitfalls , just bullet point . Then , uh , we'll uh close it out awesome .

Jessica Rose

yeah , I mean , I think a great thing to do is to have a little spreadsheet and every time you identify a new cost , add it in . Um , I did , yeah , I did this when I started , uh , my first jewelry school , which is a slightly different business model , but it still applies and there were things like , oh , we needed a cleaner once a week and I was like I did not account for that in my business plan . Put that in like , oh , we need you know , like Luroll , put that in like all these little things that you don't think about . So , yeah , I mean , there's so many Stationery . If you still print stuff printing flyers , if you still print stuff printing flyers , yeah , all your packaging and packaging is a huge area as well , because you might have bags , you might have like inserts you might have , you might include like a free little polishing cloth . So everything that you do that's free is not free .

Jessica Rose

That's part of your marketing spend and , just as a just as a side point , I generally recommend around a 20% marketing spend on each piece . So you can spend marketing in all different ways . One way is posting on social media , so that's your time as the business owner . So that's a marketing spend . Another could be doing like a giveaway once every six months and it's hard to quantify an exact 20% marketing spend , but that's kind of my budget . So if I'm selling something for £100 , I expect to spend around £20 selling it , contributing towards like a stall at an event . So , but I just like to have it in my mind . Or it could even be a bonus , like when you buy this , you get this free . I don't know jewelry , dish or whatever which costs 20 pounds , so it's that's a good idea .

Corkie Bolton

I've never considered adding in , like for a gold piece , adding 20% for marketing and then putting out ads for it Like I haven't been doing any of that . So clearly , you and I have to have another conversation on another day . I have a article actually on my blog about pricing jewelry . It's from a few years ago . I updated it in 2022 , but I just want to read a few bullet points . So , beyond our raw materials and gemstones , we have our consumable materials solder , flux , polish and compounds . We have studio equipment . That is not necessarily , like you said , going to go into each individual piece , but it is overall fixed cost Potential studio rent or utilities .

Corkie Bolton

If you do have an employee , your own labor , for sure , childcare website subscriptions and fees are really important , one that people forget Etsy , shopify , squarespace big cartel like you're paying for that monthly and you're also losing a fee on top of everything else that should be considered . You have your credit card fees when you're , you know , accepting payment , photography equipment or paying a photographer um design and photography apps and subscriptions Like I use oh my God , the things that go into doing a podcast . I have the editing stuff . I use GarageBand . I'm , you know . Thankfully , my husband is the one that edits this , but if I had to pay someone to do that you know , packaging , shipping fees , business cards , promotional flyers I pay an accountant on

Common Pricing Pitfalls and Wrap-Up

Corkie Bolton

top of my husband helping me with accounting and business related expenses like your sales permit renewal , creating an LLC or filing for a DBA .

Corkie Bolton

If you're like me and your first LLC was Metal Ribbon Studio , and then you had to subsequently do several DBAs and then even education workshops and online classes those go into the cost of your business . So I know that's throwing a lot at people , but I think your advice is very sound . Just create a spreadsheet . And for those that are maybe asking okay , but then how does that work into everything , would you suggest something along the lines of considering what your fixed costs are per month and then how many pieces you're making per month and then consider okay , if I divide , like , how would you approach that ?

Jessica Rose

Yeah , it gets complicated , doesn't it ? It does , yeah . So this is where the formulas kind of come in and they simplify everything . And there's good things and there's bad things about that . So simplifying everything means you don't have to worry too much about every little detail . And again , I think it depends on your personality type . Like some people will love love a spreadsheet , love having everything laid out and love doing all the calculations . Like that's my partner , whereas I'm like I just want a ballpark . I just I want to make things and I want it to kind of work out . So , yeah , same , it's just playing to your personality type and what works for you so that you can move forward .

Jessica Rose

But this is what the markup is for . So the markup is for covering these overheads and I like to bracket them into different areas , like marketing . So when you talked about like all the printing business cards , that would all be included in marketing for me . So , like I said , 20% of the piece , 20% of your income for the year , would go on marketing . So at the end of the year I might look at what did I spend on marketing as a whole this year . And if I bought in $20,000 , did I spend around 2000 ? If so , that feels of 4000 . If so , that feels about right . If I'm spending like 15,000 , and I'm only getting in 20 , then that's where I'm sort of thinking , okay , this isn't the right , the right ratio . So I always look at percentages rather than numbers , because percentages help me predict what's going to happen in the future as the business grows . Like , will I keep that similar percentage and the same , like with all the tools , equipment , training . That's an overhead .

Jessica Rose

So this is where to keep it simple . For those who are like me and the brain is hurting at this point yes , okay , we're marking , marking up , we're using our time and materials . We're marking up by 2.5 . Let's see if that works , you know , and if in six months it's not working , okay , let's add on 10 . So you , that way , you don't need to look at it all um and you can just it's a bit more of an intuitive business model now , for some people are freaking out at that , like , oh my gosh , there's so many unknowns , you're not looking at all the details , which is also a totally valid , you know way to look at it . You can do the spreadsheet and I did this in my business , I think , about three years in .

Jessica Rose

I tried both ways and then I kind of found a middle ground that works for me , putting in all the costs each month under all the different categories , working out your profit each month and your income , and then basically it's like a profit and loss . So checking , okay , what's coming in , what's coming out , and I for a period of time I looked at it every month and I looked at , okay , what's happening in my business and really studied it and really understood it , and for some people that's going to be a great way to see okay , there's a cost here . I'm not using this subscription anymore , let me get rid of it . Or if I could increase my prices by 10% , then I would make you know a huge amount more . So there's no right or wrong way , but I think it's finding the way that works for you .

Jessica Rose

But it's important for people to know that that's what the markup is for , because I know some people have commented on some of like our pricing reels and said why do you mark up ? You're just trying to make money out of people . And other people say , um , you know where do the overheads go ? And that answers both of those questions is that's why we mark up to cover , to cover the overheads go and that answers both of those questions is that's why we mark up to cover the overheads , because otherwise , if we had no overheads , we could just account for our materials and our time . And you know , we're done .

Corkie Bolton

Right off into the sunset , exactly .

Jessica Rose

Simple . So it's all in the markup and you get to choose your markup . So you can choose how much money you make .

Corkie Bolton

It's just up to you markup so you can choose how much money you make . It's just up to you . That's awesome . So I think , in summary , the pricing pitfalls are going to be underpricing your work to appear more competitive and not accounting for your overhead expenses . So by keeping your spreadsheet and it is one of those things you do it once and you update it a little bit and you're going to feel more comfortable knowing the exact expenses of your business . And to your last point , you might find that there's a subscription or something else that you could just do without . And then also just being consistent with pricing , whether you're doing , if you're doing wholesale or retail , making sure that they align , you know , and that you're not , you know , and any good retail store too , they're not going to charge more than what you're charging for your work either . So you have to make sure that's a cohesive story . So thank you , jess , for the conversation today and giving some simple formulas .

Corkie Bolton

I know that some of our listeners are going to be like , okay , this is great , but so I want to let them know that you can , I'm going to . Where am I looking for here ? I'm going to share a link in my show notes for your free pricing masterclass . The course comes with a downloadable spreadsheet to walk you through the formulas and calculate your pricing , so that's an awesome asset . I want to know that people can follow you on Instagram at Jewelers Academy and that's jewelry with two L's . On Instagram at Jewelers Academy and that's jewelry with two L's and Jess . You also have a bestselling book , start and Grow a Profitable Jewelry Business , which I have a copy of . It's awesome and I know this was like a while ago for both of us that we wrote our books . But again , just like congrats to you . It's such a labor of love . I hope your book continues to be on in print and helping people .

Jessica Rose

Oh , thank you . Yes , likewise we could have had them at the same time . We did , yeah , but you're right , they are a lot of work , but so great . And , yeah , also obsessed with your book and we have it in the jewelry school . We have a jewelry school and often recommend it to people . So it's yeah , it's just a wealth of knowledge .

Corkie Bolton

So I really appreciate that . Can you tell us about your podcast ?

Jessica Rose

Yes , sure so the Jewelers Academy podcast we've just done our 250th episode .

Corkie Bolton

Oh my gosh , congrats , thank you .

Jessica Rose

Yeah , talk about labor of love podcast . Yeah , yeah , I love chatting , though . So the podcast , yeah , me too . This part's the easy part . Yeah , yeah , just chatting about jewelry and business . But , yeah , so we talk about jewelry making , we talk about stone setting , we talk about starting and growing a jewelry business . We have , you know , lots of jewelers on Anything that's going to help somebody . Yeah , reach those goals of learning to make jewelry , starting a business . Just come check it out . We'd love to have you , and we've had corkie on it as well .

Corkie Bolton

So , yes , so uh sharing some of her story . So , yeah , I said I shared the drama , how this all came to be . Yeah , love it . Here for the drama , here for the . Yes , jess also has a YouTube channel which is called Jewelers Academy . Again , two L's Lots of free courses and pay-as-you-go courses and even a year-long diploma course .

Corkie Bolton

I'm going to link all of this in the show notes today and they're for anyone , whether you're a beginner or you already have your jewelry business and you need more advanced help or instruction . Your jewelry business and you need more advanced help or instruction . So lots of places to get connected with you , jessica , and I also wanted to say thank you to my Patreon supporters . Without their support , this podcast would not be possible and we're going to sign off here , jess and I , but we're going to continue on for our Patreon community . I'm going to be answering some exclusive questions and we're also going to talk about mate rates , discounts for friends and discounting in general . So if you want to hear that exclusive content created for Patreon , you can head over to patreoncom . Slash metalsmithsociety . Thanks again , jessica . I think I have been calling you Jess and Jessica .

Jessica Rose

That's fine , both work . Yeah , I'm happy with either . Jessica's usually when I'm in trouble , but it's fine All right . Thank you Great chatting with you . No , thank you for having me , corgi , and just wanted to say thank you as well . So much for everything you do with the Metalsmith Society . That is the real labor of love . I mean , yeah , I'm always in awe of the community that you've built like a genuine community , because there are some out there new ones . I love your passion . So , yeah , thank you for all that you do .

Corkie Bolton

Thank you . Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode . I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jessica and picked up some helpful insights about pricing your jewelry and avoiding common mistakes many of us make when running a business . If this episode resonated with you , please subscribe , leave a review and share it with your jewelry making community . It helps so much in growing the podcast . You can support the show by joining my Patreon at patreoncom slash metalsmith society . As a special thank you , all Patreon supporters will receive a free digital copy of Jessica's book Start and Grow a Profitable Jewelry Business an incredible resource for makers at any stage For more jewelry making tips , tutorials and behind the scenes content . Join our community and follow along at metalsmithsociety on Instagram and head over to metalsmithsocietycom . Keep learning , keep experimenting and remember . Pricing your work confidently is a form of valuing your time and your craft . Until next time .