EP 220 | Building Confident Female Athletes with MSU Volleyball Coach Kristen Kelsay

The loudest voice in your life is rarely the wisest one and for athletes and leaders right now, the noise is constant. In this episode, I sit down with Kristen Kelsay, head coach of Michigan State University volleyball. We talk about pressure, confidence, and the question that keeps coming up for high performers: whose opinion matters and how do you keep the rest out?

Kristen shares the real path to becoming a Big Ten head coach, from getting a rare opportunity at 22 to returning to MSU with a deeper sense of peace, purpose, and leadership clarity. We talk about women in sports and the growth of volleyball, along with many other amazing topics. If you’re a coach, leader, parent, manager, or competitor, this is a grounded look at emotional safety and what it takes to protect it.

If this resonates, subscribe, share it with someone who’s carrying too much noise, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s one voice you need to stop letting in today?

Chapters:

• 3:08: Kristen’s Road To Head Coach
• 11:35: Women’s Sports Growth And Pressure
• 17:40: Parenting, Empathy, And Emotional Safety
• 28:13: Conflict Stories And Clear Communication
• 33:30: Saying No And Holding Standards
• 41:35: Youth Sports Systems And Parent Choices
• 49:19: Hope For Women In Athletics

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Transcript

Whose Opinion Gets In

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Whose opinion matters and how do you let in? Whose opinion matters and how do you let by those who don't?

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to the Confident Podcast. I am Lisa Tarkington, your guide to mastering confidence and leadership. As a business and leadership coach, keynote speaker, and the founder behind the Nonprofit Lead, I am here to equip you with the confidence, clarity, and strategy to create game-changing results so that you can step into your power as the person that you are meant to be. If you press play today, it's because you're ready for something bigger. Each episode, I'll bring you real, raw conversations and actionable insights that will empower you to redefine your leadership, reclaim your confidence, and transform into the unstoppable force you've always been known to be. This isn't just another podcast, it's your journey that we're on together. So buckle up and let's dive into this transformation. Hi, everybody, welcome to the Competent Podcast. I am your host, Lisa Tarkington, and I think I say this every time I get up on the mic, but I'm excited for today's conversation. I've said this, I think, multiple times, but that means that we have some really great guests that have been on this podcast, new thoughts, new perspectives. I feel like, you know, when you're just so laser focused that you kind of like lose the time and you're just like, tell me more. That's how these conversations have been going. And one of my favorite things to talk about is women, leadership, sports, all separate, all together, love it all. And so today we're gonna be chatting with uh Kristen Kelsey, who is the head coach of Michigan State University's volleyball team. Yeah, she's a D1 volleyball head coach and she's a collegiate athlete that played at Michigan State as well. Um, fun fact um, we've had Kathy, George, and Mike on on their uh their coaches for Grand Rapids Rise. I think I've shared in their piece that I did stats while they were at Michigan State for their team. Um and again, fun fact, when Kristen was playing, I was the same age as her and I had an internship with the volleyball team and I was doing stats for when she was playing. So it's fun to see full circle moments and people that I haven't seen in 15 years and how those relationships that maybe weren't full at that time can come back in different ways, and you can look back and be like, wow, like it's cool to see how the different paths have crossed. And so today we're gonna be talking about women in sports, we're gonna be talking about what leadership looks like. And I really want you to tune in and lean into some of the things that we talk about when it comes to sympathy and empathy, empathy, when we talk about like harsh truth and confrontation and how to have conversations and just the power of what that can look like. And if you're a parent, especially one that has kids in sports or just any activity, again, I really want you to lean into this conversation because we both have different thoughts on and good thoughts on systematic changes that we'd love to see and some advice for parents as well. So let's dive into today's conversation.

Kristen’s Road To Head Coach

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Welcome, Kristen, to the confident podcast. I am so excited to have this conversation with you today. Thank you, Lisa. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. So I've got to ask what? Like, I feel like you're a little bit younger than me. So you're probably in your early 30s. You're a D1 head coach, big 10. Tell me how you got here. Like, how cool, first off, congratulations. Like, this is probably a dream of many people's, right? And you can just be back where you started, right? You were a college athlete for MSU and we're back. So, like, tell us how you got here. What were the good, the bad, and the beautiful moments?

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Oh gosh, Lisa, how much time do you impress? Um I said this at my press conference and I I loved it. You know, like I think life has um a way of bringing you through peaks and valleys, right? And when I look back on all of, you know, what's the last probably 15 years of my life, I can see how every decision I made or every road like led me to this moment. Like I can see it. Now I couldn't see it at the time, right? I had moments in the in the especially the last six years where I'm like, what am I doing? Like, what is the plan? You know, where I wrestled with my faith or I wrestled with decisions to say, like, I don't, I don't know what's happening next. Um, and yet, wow, like sitting at this desk a year in, feeling like the peace that surrounds me, that I am exactly where I'm supposed to be. It's just um, it's what I want my athletes to feel. It's what I want my staff to feel that like you are exactly where you're supposed to be in this moment. And so I'm filled with deep gratitude, right, for the the twists and turns, the roads that brought me away from here just to bring me back, help me learn the life lessons I needed to learn in order to be a mentor and a leader of the women in this program.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

I love that. Well, and you gave me chills when you were, you know, I having peace of exactly where you're at. But to your point, six years ago, you said I didn't feel that way. And so take us there and take us to, I always say, what do I want to be when I grow up? And the midlife crisis that it's usually our quarter life crisis that kind of happens. Like, what made you think that this might not be the path for you? Or like, I guess what was coming up for you then?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Well, I was presented this opportunity to be a big 10 assistant coach really young. So I graduated from Michigan State. I started my master's. I was working in our academic center, right? I didn't, I had some opportunities to play pro. I was I was good. I wasn't that good respectfully. So I was like, I don't really know if I want to do that. I was a psych major. And so the um Jim Pignotero was the head of our academic center, and he offered me a GA position to get my master's and to work in our, you know, I was stack president. I was really involved. I was like, he was like, Well, why Michigan State loves you? You love Michigan State. Why leave? Why not just get your master's and figure out what's next? And I said, love it. So that summer, like a week after I graduated, I started working in the academic center. Three months later, Kathy George, my head coach, brings me in her office and she's asking me all these like life questions, right? Are you fulfilled? Do you like what you're doing? And you know, it was like my first fall that I was like being a GA and I was tailgating and I was like enjoying the college experience. Yeah. But I was I was not fulfilled, right? I didn't have the same mentorship and the same relationships. And for the first time in my whole life, I wasn't part of a team or wasn't in a sport. Um and I remember she got up and closed the door, and I was like, Am I in trouble? Right? Like, uh oh, like what did I do? You know, like here's this woman who's been a mother figure, you know, coach for me the last four years. And um, she told me that Russ Carney, her longtime associate head coach, was retiring. She was repro um promoting Mike Gullick, and she wanted to hire me. You know, I was I just turned 22. I wow as her full-time assistant coach back when we only got two full-time assistants, not as a volunteer, not as a GA, like full-time, 22. I mean, I had to have special clearance to rent a car and to rent a hotel room, you know, like to go recruiting. Um, I was coaching half the team that I had just been to a Suite 16 with, you know. Um, and I said yes. And in that moment, my life changed, right? Like she'll give me a lot of grief because it took me a week to say yes. And I always, you know, respond because I knew I knew the impact of the decision I was making. I felt the weight of the opportunity you had offered to me, and I didn't take it lightly, right? I didn't say yes on the spot. That's just not who I am. But I said I didn't say yes on the spot, and then a week later be like, oh, I don't know if I can do this. Like I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, well, I'm just gonna do this like, you know, halfway and then like see what's next. It's like, you're offering me the opportunity to be a big tennis and coach at 22. I understand the impact this is gonna have personally and professionally. I called my four best friends from high school. I was like, you can't get married in the fall. Like, you just can't, you know, like the the things you're worried about at 22, you know. Um, and none of them did, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Very kind of them, yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah. Um, and and if you look, Lisa, that was January 2015, January 2025. I walk into this office as head coach at Michigan State, you know, so neither of us knew, but 10 years almost to the date I come back as head coach with a lot of life lived, a lot of experiences. Um, but I wouldn't be here today without that opportunity that Kathy provided for me. And for her, I'm forever grateful.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

I love that. And I have to like this is what came up when you were talking to us what do you think she saw in you that made her think like she's it? I want her. What stood stood out?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

We had a really special relationship. Um she'll introduce me now as a daughter she never had, you know, like we we had and we're very different, and that's what I think people understand is like and and that at times was was frustrating for both of us. Um but I was a three-year captain for her. I was a source of a safe place, you know, for her, and and as a captain, I I just tried to be the mediator mediator, uh, sorry. Mediator, yeah. As a captain, I just try to be the mediator, right, for our team and for our staff. I loved the leadership role, I love the mentorship role. I just love this program, right? Like I had committed to another university and I had decommitted senior year spring because of a change of um personnel at that program. And Kathy, like I thought I was walking on somewhere. My parents were ready to like pay for school, and Kathy gave me this opportunity. And so I and Michigan State, they they weren't great, like they had not made the tournament in a couple of years. Like it was like, but I believed in Kathy and I believed in her staff, and I knew I was gonna be challenged not only as a volleyball player, but as a young woman, right? Like I had played for a strong female head coach in high school, and I I saw that in Kathy, and I saw a a program in a university that valued women and valued athletics. Um and so basically just our relationship, I think, through the years of me being her captain, and um I I never was like, oh, I want to be a coach. It wasn't even on my radar, right? Like I wasn't, I loved coaching summer camps, you know, and I my tat my dad's a psychologist, my mom's a teacher, my whole family's in education. So like the teaching makes sense now. But I she always says, I hire good people, I can teach them how to do the job, but I have to hire good people. Um, and the relationship we had gave her that trust that I was I was gonna be one of those people for her.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

I love that. Well, and also what you said, like I it was built off of a relationship. And I think many times people forget that relationships are very key. Uh, we don't want to burn the bridges. How do we keep those relationships going? How do we check in with each other? And one of the things that I teach a lot is how do we relate through communication, right? You don't have to agree on everything, but how do you find that common denominator, which volleyball, you know, and how do we show up? You know, and I think too, you said something that was really great where you said, I knew that I was going to be challenged as a volleyball player, but as a young woman.

Women’s Sports Growth And Pressure

SPEAKER_02 11:35

And I think when we talk about women in sports in general, I don't know about you, but I think we've made a lot of headway in the growth pieces and what we see that they're capable of, just from a um, I would say a college, collegiate um place, but also a pro um place as well. Volleyball, basketball, like soccer, like I'm seeing all of this growth. And I'm I love it because when I don't know if you feel this way, but when I was in high school, we had like a few people we looked up to. And recently I was coaching or I was doing um a workshop around confidence with all these young athletes, and the names that they were saying to me, and I'm like, whoa, you know all these names? Like, and their input. So what do you see differently in now in the in the shoes of a head coach of where women's sports and women leadership have gone?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Yeah, I mean, I hear you. Like growing up, I don't, and I I am from I'm from Chicago. My high school was a huge volleyball school. Like, I and I don't know if I could have named like a single collegiate player. Yeah. Right. And now, like Harper Murray is a household name, right? People who don't even know volleyball. Like, and I we've come a long way. We still have a long way to go. Um, but when you look at it, I tell our team all the time there is no better time to be a woman in athletics, specifically a volleyball player. We have two pro leagues, we have more matches on TV than any other conference, right? We are now able to pay our young women and have them have the platform that they deserve. Um, it's just it's the fastest growing youth sport. So to be a woman in athletics and then also to be a big-time volleyball player at Michigan State, I mean, one of our values is our Spartan family and what a privilege it is. So when it's 5 a.m. and you're getting up to go to lift and it's cold right now, you're right. Like, remember that like it is a privilege to wear the Spartan head. It is a privilege to be a woman in athletics. And you're right, it hasn't been that way for a really long time.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah. And as you were talking, the one thing that I also was thinking about is what a privilege. And also it adds this level of I guess like weight that could be on people's shoulders too.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

What do you see? And like, how do you see it from a physical and mental standpoint from a collegiate standpoint?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

I think like we've gotten a lot better at acknowledging it, right? That this is like this is something that is real, right? And that like there's I guess maybe your question, weight of the horizon, or would you say your question?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

No, just like, yeah, the weight of okay, there's more pressure. There's more eyes on everything. Like we can't just like hide like I don't know about you, but we didn't have a TikTok in college. We didn't have to worry about social media. We didn't have to hear so-and-so talk about how we, you know, miss something or the block wasn't well, or so, you know, they're the people that I always say the people that sit at home on the couch that have a lot to say but aren't out there actually doing it. And just the pressure of the game, too. Like we want to show these next level girls like what's up. So yeah, those weights.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

It's heavy, right? It's heavy. And it's um, we talk a lot about what matters and whose voice matters because the flip side, right, of volleyball being so so highly seen on TV and so popular in the youth is that there are a lot more voices, right? And there's a lot more opinions. And it is part of the privilege of our sports notoriety and of our growth, but it's also um a burden, right, and a responsibility and at times a detriment to our student athletes' mental health. Um, and so we talk a lot about like what voices matter, and how do you protect? I tell them all the time, the number one goal of my job, like the most important job I have, is to keep their physical, emotional, and psychological safety, right? Like they have to be physically, emotionally, and psychologically safe in all facets, whether that's walking the class, in our practice, in my office. And if there's ever something that's um challenging, though, that's safety, I need to know about it. But it's it's really hard to sit down on my couch in here and be like, I'm getting DMs that are really awful, you know, and that you want to be like, oh, I'm I'm tougher than that. I don't have to read it. But, you know, opening up the vulnerability to say, hey, these things are happening and that's okay. Let us help you with some of that, you know, is is a part of the privilege of where our Sparta is going, but it's also definitely a burden.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yeah. Well, and it's tough to your point. Like, I think about the innocence that I had coming from high school to college, right? I actually look back at the moments, I'm like, wow, I didn't know what I was getting into when I went to Michigan State, right? Came from a small I came from a small town, big school, very different, and also just the level that I felt pressures in certain ways when I wasn't even an athlete. And then you add the athlete piece, you add what I've been out of school a long time, 15 years or so, right? And so, and things have changed. And so for me to even hear, like, I can imagine what it's I can't imagine what it's like to get that DM, right? I can't imagine, like, I've I've watched like Harper talk a little bit about that, um, and other athletes uh that I follow of, yeah, like this is the stuff we hear. And I think in my head, wow, someone would send that. But they do. So it's like they're doing it. So how do we help them? And I love that you're saying, like, that is your role, that is your job, right? And I think it's even different when we had Kathy and Mike on recently on the podcast, like they're at a pro level with athletes, a whole different level of looking at performance and mental capacity and stuff. And so, you know, when we think about those things, what what can a parent do now to help their daughter on their athletic journey with those

Parenting, Empathy, And Emotional Safety

SPEAKER_02 17:40

pieces? Because I know for me, and I don't know about you, but like I played year-round volleyball. I played AAU, I was like all into it, but I also had that mental shift of like, oh, I miss that, or oh, you know, I it just and I still think back to those moments because I'm like, yeah, why like what mentally I wasn't fully there? And so, like, what what do you think like parents could do now? Because it's it's different now.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Honestly, I just think have the conversation, right? Have the conversation before you you know about it, because by the time you know about it, they've probably not shared or they've heard things, and now it's coming across your desk, right? When I when I hear of an issue, oftentimes, okay, what led up to this that it got to the point where now I know about it. So how early can I get involved? And so whether it's social media, you know, or I mean maybe it's an issue in a body image, right? Or maybe it's someone at school. And I think the the safer that for me are athletes, and I don't have children yet, right? Like, God willing, hopefully I have a daughter one day where I can have these conversations of like whose opinion matters, whose opinion matters, and how do you let in whose opinion matters, and how do you let by those who don't? Because people are going to say mean things, right? High school girls can be so mean, right? Like so mean. And that, and then you get into this, whether it's your job or whether it's sports or whether it's your sorority or your youth group, right? Like someone will let you down, and someone will, and so how do you have that conversation before you have to have the conversation? And how are you a safe person for your child to bring it to and to help them delineate what voice matters and what do I take to heart? And how do you build that that safety and out of okay, that person made a comment about my weight or about my shoe size or about my, you know, like I we lost yesterday, you know, and how do I how do I cope with that? Because it's really difficult.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah, I love that. And I, you know, one of the things that was coming up as you were talking is is it's going to change continuously of how we have those conversations too. I think about like when we were young, we would hear rub some dirt on it, oh, they're just jealous. Like it's very easy to be passive with the conversation or think that those are helpful, right? But it's to your point, like understanding the method of the madness and how do we support them, also not just from a physical standpoint, but also that mental standpoint as well. Um, and how that's gonna shift and change over time. And I always say, like to parents, like, what something that you wish someone would have done for you. And then how do you show up for your daughter or your son that way? You know, even your point of whose opinions matter. I think back to a conversation I had probably like 10 months ago with a leader who is very prominent in his industry. And I just said to him, like, the the noises are loud sometimes for me. How do you handle it? And he said, Well, do you know who the sharks are? And he said, No matter what you do, the sharks are gonna come after you. They're coming after for blood. It doesn't matter how much you bend over backwards and try to like change who you are and blah, blah, blah. He said, They don't care. They're coming for it regardless. And as you were talking, I was literally picturing like, I'm a whiteboard girl, like putting the whiteboard up and saying, like, do you know who those sharks are? And then do you know who's like your safe place? And if you don't know that, it's important to find that out.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, and it's important, and you know, one of the best lessons my dad taught me is like, and honestly, just through who he is, is that you don't always have to solve it, right? Like you just have to be a place that's like, you know, Brene Brown, my team has learned all about Renee Brown and just the difference between sympathy and empathy, right? Instant love is like, oh, I'm sorry, that sucks. But like, have you tried this? Have you gone to red light therapy? Have you worked out? Have you, you know, and empathy is I'm gonna crawl down into this hole and just sit in the darkness with you. And I'm not gonna try to solve your problem. I I'm not gonna pretend I know how you feel, but I'm just gonna sit here. And there's days in my office that an athlete comes in and I just sit and hold their hand and I offer them a tissue. And my dad was that person for me that I could call and he would validate my experience and he would listen. It didn't have to be fixed. He he knew he raised a strong daughter. He knew I would figure it out. But it was a safe person for me to share my emotion and to share. And he would say, Okay, I'm here. I'm here. What you call me whenever you need to. And that's why he's he is my first phone call because it's a safe place where you don't, you don't have to justify, you know, you don't have to have justify why you're upset. You don't have to explain. You don't have to figure it out. You just get to feel it. And I think that would probably be my advice to parents is be a safe place where you're able just to hear and listen and not always have to solve.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I love that. And I will put in the show notes that video that Brene Brown does of sympathy for empathy because that is literally, I share that with so many people. And then once it clicks, you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize I was doing that. Because all you want to do, I always say to people, all we ever want to do is help. Like we do want to help. It's just the way in which we approach things, you know. And I'll share this other piece that I teach a lot. Um, is there's three different ways that you can help someone is asking them, do you want to be helped right now? Do you want to be heard right now, or do you want to be hugged right now? And if you can do write that down. Yeah, please. Yeah, helped, heard, heard or hugged. Hugged, yes. And if they can, if you can give them that opportunity, then they can figure out, well, what do I need in this moment? Because again, what what I see a lot with people, and I do it too. I'm not perfect at it, is like I do want to solve it because I want to make that person feel better. But unless they know what they need, then you can show up, right? Like sometimes I just need a hug. I actually don't need your advice. I just need you to give me a hug and tell me that it's gonna be okay, you know? Or I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

I don't want to talk about it. I just need some physical contact. Love it. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yes, yes. And so I've seen the game changing that that's happened. I've also seen it in how I can vocalize now what I'm feeling. Like, I actually don't need you to give me advice. I just need to be heard right now because I are I just need to process what's going on. And it's a lot like I deal with a lot with my coaching. I deal with processors who take days. I also deal with processors that are like, right now, like I need the answer. And so the more that you can understand that, especially even with athletes, it helps you know, like, okay, I gave them that feedback, they're gonna need a few days to process that. Or they've got it and I'm gonna see the change fast. It's just different, you know? Um, yeah. So good.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

My assistant, Kirsty Jackson, is has been like so good for me because um that is so us. Like she is a conflict, agile human, right? Like if we have a disagreement, she wants to talk about it right now. And I'm like, I need I need a minute, like I need to sleep on it. And she was like, Well, I'm waiting, like I'm ready, you know. And I think, you know, she's like, I'm not a yeller, but she's like, I'm ready, like let's let's go. And I'm like, I need to, so it's been good for me to process a little faster. And maybe it's not a day, maybe it's hey, I need to go in my office and just like, you know, have the idea. And it's good, good for her to be like, okay, I I'm gonna process and let her process. And then when we come back, it's like so healthy. But it took us a little time to be like, okay, she's really conflict agile. I'm pretty emotionally intelligent, but I need to meet her halfway and she needs, and like it's it's been a such a good life lesson for me because that was Kathy. Kathy was really conflict agile and really, and it I it would sometimes stress me out, right? And so now being the leader, flipping the seat, it's like the reverse. And it is, she has been so helpful for me, and it's it's been awesome.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Well, and I love that. And I always um one of my keynotes that I teach, it's like, how do we turn confrontation into conversation? Like, how do we just have a conversation about this? Because many times it's we actually aren't trying to be con uh confrontational. It's just that we had a disagreement and we don't know how to meet someone in the middle because we we care so much. We care so much about that person that we don't even want to have the conversation because then we know that we're gonna upset or we might have a disagreement. But to your point, it's the meeting in the middle with two different personalities of because I'm like that person. Like, I'm like some days I'm that processor, and other days I'm like, no, like I just need to know that you're not mad at me. Like, if you can just tell me that, then we can like circle back, but like give me a little bit of an affirmation so that I know, like, we're good, right? Okay, we're just gonna talk about this tomorrow so I don't lose sleep. And everybody's different.

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SPEAKER_02 26:29

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Conflict Stories And Clear Communication

SPEAKER_00 28:13

I um I started saying this like sometimes I'm an overthinker. I'll like walk into someone's office and I'll be like, I'm making up a story. I'm making up a story that your liking of my message meant that you're mad. And they're like, not at all. I'm like, great, cool. I just had to confirm or deny that my story I'm telling myself is real. And that has helped so much with conflict of just like, I'm making up a story. Am I close or am I way off? And a lot of times they're like, you are overthinking this. I'm like, cool, now I know.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yes. Well, and I love that you're actually doing something about it because how many people are just like, I'm just gonna think about this. I'm just gonna be like in my assumption mode and tell myself all of these stories. And then we don't like, and to your point, uh there's this thing called the spotlight effect where we think people are thinking about us more than they are. And they're they're not at all. They're like, no, I was, I was good. I actually am thinking about what I want for dinner. And you're like, uh oh, you're not thinking about me all the time.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I've already argued with you for hours in my head.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Exactly. And I think that that is, I see this both with men and women, right? I do think that, you know, women do have a lot of more stories in our heads than we, you know, than maybe men do. Again, I'm a woman, so I know what's in my brain. Uh, but I also think to your point, it's what are we doing about it? Right. And I think that then when you're setting that uh that tone as a leader, you're also setting that. I look at your like team in a way as like if a company like had employees, right? Like you're recruiting, you're bringing people on, you're bringing the best team possible. And so you have to look at the different personalities and the different skill sets and what that looks like. And so what would you say? Um, obviously, you know, you've over the years you've you've changed, you've had growth. What would you say is for your leadership now? Is it different? Is it better? Like, what would you say has changed being an um a D1 head coach?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

You have to say no a lot more.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Ooh, tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah, like as an assistant, you get to give your opinion a lot, but you're not the decider of playing time. You're not the holder of the standard. You're not telling your other assistants that's not good enough. You're right, like, you know, and so Keegan, my friend, mentor, head coach at Minnesota, um, says this a lot. He says, how we hear and receive no and how we say no is some of the most important work that we do as head coaches, right? Like how we hear from our assistants, hey, you failed in this way or you failed in this way, or how you hear from your players, I don't like how this, right, is is really, really important. And how we say no, right? When I have to stop practice and say, this isn't good enough, that's hard, right? And that that that doesn't happen as off as an assistant. It happens sometimes. You know, when I have to tell my staff, like this is not to the level that we need, or when I have to tell a recruit, hey, we're going in a different direction. Those are those are things only head coaches can do, right? When I have to have a role clarity conversation with athletes, say you have been starting, but you're not starting tonight, right? Like saying no is so important and it's so hard. And one of our values, which I try to live by, and is courageous conflict. And what we say is it's courageous conflict because we acknowledge the courage it takes to enter into conflict, to do it well. Some people love conflict, but they don't do it well, so it's not courageous because you're just doing it how you want to do it. Some people hate conflict, and so to even have that conversation takes so much courage. And I think as women, the stigma is to just not be that person and to let it go over your shoulder or to be the bigger person. And that's BS. We are not a sorority, we are a high-functioning team that is trying to win. And so my job is not to find your best friends. I hope, I hope I do. Yeah, but that's not my goal. My goal is to win a big-time championship. My goal is to make the tournament, and so we're going to have conflict. So, how we stay curious, how we stay kind, how we lead like with our emotions, how we find adult trusted mediators when necessary, how quickly we can enter into conflict takes courage. I said it takes courage for me to sit you down and say you're not playing tonight. But because I love you and because this is our value, I have to do it, you know? And one quote we use a lot with Craigus conflict is that truth without love is harsh, right? So if you've ever had a coach or a boss or maybe a friend be like, well, I'm just being honest, but it's really hurtful because there's no love, there's no relationship, there's no trust built, right? So it's it's it's honest, but it's harsh.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

But then love without truth is hollow, right? And I like to think of like the high school, like, oh my God, we have the same color pen, and we just become best friends. And it's like so hollow, right? If I walk into the gym every day and tell them they're the best things in slice bread, it's so hollow. Yeah, right. So there has to be a level of truth and love. And I can't just be harsh dictator all the time, but I also can't just have coffee and never tell them

Saying No And Holding Standards

SPEAKER_00 33:30

no. And so that as the head coach has been the probably the hardest part of managing staff and players and having the courage to say no when I have to say no.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Well, and I'm picturing you, like I'm just gonna picture you at the gym, and you're like, I want to say something right now and like to do a timeout for my team and say, like, this isn't at the level. But I also like you have to find that courage inside and not let that moment pass because then you go back to your desk at the end of the day and you're like, I should have said something then, because now the time and moment has passed. And to have that confidence in yourself of because normally you probably feel this way. Other people are thinking it too. But when the head coach doesn't say anything, or like the the founder, the CEO, the the manager, whoever isn't saying it, then that's the standard that we're like, okay, we're gonna get away with this.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

And the standards you walk past are the standards you're setting.

unknown 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

So regardless of whether they are your mission statement or your values or your goals, whatever you walk past, whatever you turn a blind eye to are the standards you're setting. And that and that is what I remind myself of like, I don't want to be pissed in November when we're fighting to make the Big Ten tournament or the NTP tournament because I didn't hold the standard in February, right? And so that's what I remind myself of, and that's what I remind our team of of the compound interest of the work you do at 7 a.m. when it's cold and dark shows up in October. And if we want to have a better November, which we do, we have to have a better March and a better February.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

I love that. And the other thing that you said is like now I just like picture, like, and I always say this because I am a founder. Um, you get all the noise, you get all the voices, you get all the feedback, and some of it's really helpful, but many times you're probably going through it, like I always say, like you're going through it in like filtering. Okay, like what do I take on? What do I just let go? Um, and that's tough. And I think that's the same thing as when you're giving feedback is the people have to know, like when if someone is giving you feedback that is harsh, it's not with you know love at all. They're taking it a certain way, and then they're having to filter it. And I feel like it's this continuous thing where it's that filter. But to your point, like I think it's also really great that you were in a role where you gave the feedback because now you're in a different role and you can appreciate both.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, and I can I try to be really vulnerable with my assistants, and when they have the courage to tell me no or to bring, it's like I really try to show them that I value what they're saying. I may not agree or do it, but I value it and I want it to be a safe place where they can tell me no or where they can express their opinion, and then I get I decide from there, but I don't want it to be out of fear.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yeah. Yeah. How do you handle then when you do make a decision and people don't agree with it and there's pushback? And all you want to do, and maybe you I just see this with some of my clients, y'all just want to give in, right? Like it's that people pleasing, like, okay, I'll just give in to this when really you know if you give in that we're setting that standard. So, like, how do you filter through that?

SPEAKER_00 36:54

The first question I ask is like, where does it fall in our values, right? So, like, is it consistent with our values? I love that. If it's not, it's a really easy no for me, right? Like, if it's not in our values, it's like nope, or like respectfully, you know. Um if it is within our values, so like first year head coach um decisions on um starting lineup, playing time decisions, it was really difficult. We had a really uh our team was really deep in the way that we played almost every person on our team at some point started, right? Like we we on turned probably to a fault where like we weren't able to find consistency sometimes because I would switch because we had athletes who could do a lot of talented things. And there was one match that my two assistants kept, you know, we had talked about something for kind of the last two weeks and they had brought it up. Hey, we think this we should try this, we try this. And at one point during the match, someone brought it up to me again. And I looked at them and I said, I hear you. I hear you. I I am I am constantly thinking about what you're telling me. I am making a head coaching decision not to do that. It is valid, it is a good idea. Right now, I'm not going to do that. So please focus your attention somewhere else. And they were like, Okay. Because I was just like, shut up, right? Yes, yes, yes. But I had not, I had not clearly defined where I was at. So it was, and and then guess what? The next week we did it. It was a very good suggestion, but I was just like, no, right now I am not going to make that decision. So please focus, focus on something else. How else can we win this game? And then we'll we'll debrief later. But like I had to be firm in that. It was within our values, it was an asset to the team, but I wasn't going to do it. And I had to be better at communicating. Nope, this is where I'm at, my boundary right now. So do not bring it up again. I but what you're saying is okay and it's valid. And then and then it was great. And then we the next week we ended up doing it, right? Um, I love that. But it is difficult. It is difficult when it's outside our values, it's an easy no, to be honest. Yeah. But when it's within our values and it's like just a differing of opinion, those were times that I had to, it was hard not to second guess. I have many sleepless nights this fall, you know, 12-12 against Purdue in the fifth set that we lose, you know, and I'm I I didn't sleep a wink, right? What could I have done better? Like being a head coach is lonely at times. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah. And I think that when you bring up the sleepless nights thing, like how many people can relate to that, right? How many of us make decisions and then we look back and be like, we overthink it, but the decisions already passed, like we can't change it, but we're still trying to live in that past, right? And there's there's healthy with that, where it's like, okay, now I know what I need to do differently, but also like don't hurt, like, don't overthink it so much, where like you now like are frozen in time where you're scared to make a decision or a risky one too. Sometimes that comes into play. And that's a hard balance. Like, I don't think anybody has this perfect rhythm. I also don't know anybody that's never had, like, especially at like levels of like CEOs, executives, and and your role, where it's like, I haven't had a sleepless night. Uh, you know, I talked to a leader the other day who I just admire to the core. And I just sat because he just like seems like he's got it all together. And I sat him down and we go, we went out for coffee and I said, Do you ever have like sleepless nights? And he goes, Yeah, Lisa. And I go, Oh, and he goes, Yeah, like, and I just was, you know, he's uh, you know, a guy that's doing very well financially and really well within his company. And so I just assume because he had hit a level of like 30 years that he no longer was feeling that way. And so the more that like that's more honesty, I love that, right? And I think that it's too then how do you learn from that? And how do you help more people figure out that like, hey, we're all just human, uh but also like back to your core values. I love that that's your lens. And I think when people set core values, we have them, but like then we don't filter through them. And that's another beautiful thing. You know, I talk a lot on this podcast about like 26, 2026 is the year I come home to myself after years of maybe like fighting that battle a little bit. And one of my core values is freedom. And it's funny when I was thinking about that months, months ago, I was like, ooh, that's out of alignment with what I'm choosing in my life. And so, like when you get back on the radar to your point of making decisions through that filter, it's like, I don't know, like take the weight off the shoulders, like it's a lot easier.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah, it's a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah, love that.

Youth Sports Systems And Parent Choices

SPEAKER_02 41:35

So, okay, so what if you could change? I'm gonna kind of go like to like now, like with like the systems and how girls and sports, like if you could change one systematic thing about girls sports in the US, whether youth, high school, college, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 41:53

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

I can ask it a different way. So what I guess what came up for me, like as we're talking, and if something else comes to mind, please let me know. But like I played since I was in seventh grade, AAU. I played all year round, right? And then I hit high school because I wanted the the college scholarship that um I gave up other sports to do it. And now, and then I chose not to play college because I had hit a point. And I think about it now. Now that was on me. That was a choice I made. No one pressured me to do that, but I felt also like this other piece. And then I look back now, and we always joke like soccer wasn't my other sport that I love playing, and I stopped playing that when I was a freshman in high school. And I look back and I'm like, I really wish I would have stuck with that, not because I was gonna go to college for it, but because I loved that sport so much. And now having a son, you know, he's very young. But I always say, like, I really hope we play soccer so that I can like be a coach. And so I like look at like, what are the pressures, right, that I see now of like we have to play one sport or or the opposite of people like don't play one sport, play multiple. And that's just like a hard balance. I still don't know what the right answer is. And so I just yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or something else came up for you.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

No, thank you for sharing that. Something else did come up. And I I don't know if I would change it, but I think I would tell parents or guardians um to step back. Ooh. I I was, and listen, my dad played collegiate football, he played briefly, you know, tried to the NFL, he's coached. My mom was a coach my whole life. Like, now they didn't play volleyball, which I think was a blessing. Um I was on the 14 threes team. I was on the 15 4s team. I in the most important recruiting year, I was on the 16 3s team. I was not on an elite team until my senior year of high school.

unknown 43:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

And how many kids right now, if your kid, this is not Lisa, but the general We, your kid makes a 15-fours team. How many parents are pulling that kid out of that club and going to another club? We're pulling that kid out of a sport and going to another sport. And my parents were like, Is this what you want to do? Yeah, okay. Then be the hardest working kid in the gym. My dad would say, Have fun, work hard, be safe. Have fun, work hard, be safe. Every time I left the house, have fun, work hard, be safe. Because I'm not a very good driver. So that's what he was afraid to do, right? But like, have fun, work hard. Are you the hardest working kid in the gym? Are you a good teammate? Okay. You can't control that you touched 9-6 and you're 5'8, right? Like, that's why you can't control you're on the 15-4s team. Yeah. I mean, I I can control a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

But how many barons when I tell this story, you know, people look at me with these like bulging eyes. I'm I'm a Big Ten varsity athlete, you know, I'm a successful coach and I was on the 15-4s team. And I just think that's that's where I would, that's where I get really passionate of like let your kids figure it out. And if they don't want to do it, that's different. But if they love it, and just because they're not on the elite team, if I wouldn't have, I would not be here anywhere where I am today if my parents didn't give me the space to be on the third and four and do the private lessons and do the extra training. And my confidence comes in my work ethic. Not because I went to a new club and was put on the elite team and told I was the best kid ever, because that's hollow love. Right? I I had harsh truth, a lot of harsh truth, and I persevered and I fought my butt off, and I got in the best shape in my life, and I got a big time scholarship, but I was on 15-4. So that would be my systematic change. It's like too quickly, are we changing the path for the child or are we preparing the child for the path?

SPEAKER_02 45:54

That is beautifully said. So thank you for sharing that because I think a lot of people can resonate because they don't have the answer of like, what do I do? Or to your point, we we talked about earlier is the filtering the noise too. Like, okay, all of their friends made the elite team, Johnny didn't. Okay, right? Like, and so that doesn't mean it's anything bad. It is what it is, but like have the conversations back to what you said earlier. Learn. Does your kid even care? Or do you care more? Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Is it your pride or is it theirs? Because comparison is the theme of joy. And maybe your kid wants to play on the third team instead of sit the bench on the elite team all year. Let them play. Yes. Let it, you know. Yes. Yeah. And I'm so, you know, I'm now at an age where I talk to my parents and like, thank you. Thank you. Like, I have so much gratitude that they let me figure it out. And I'm sure, like, I'll never forget sitting outside my mom's car before tryouts, and I was crying. I didn't know if I was even gonna make the club. Yes. You know, and she was just like, whatever you want. We're we'll do whatever you need, whatever you want, but not this is what we're doing because you made the third team. And I'm so grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Yeah, I I love that. I I've I give my parents a lot of credit for like giving me a lot of grace over the years, right? And I I think too, like there are moments where I wasn't on the elite team. I also think it was really cool. I look back, I played on a lot of different AAU volleyball teams, and I look back and I think I have so many friends from different places because I didn't stick with the same 10 people my whole life, right? Like I had to get out of my comfort zone. I would drive 45 minutes to AAU practice because we didn't, you know, it was just different where I was at. And I learned so much about independency of getting out of my comfort zone to talk to people, um, seeing my strengths. And that has helped me tremendously see where I'm at. But it goes back to like my parents didn't have they didn't, they wanted me to play college because I wanted to play college. Once I most made that decision I didn't want to play anymore, they were like, What? And they were like, Okay, she doesn't want to. She wants to go to Michigan State, right? And so I think then being okay with those pieces is really awesome. I think my we were just talking about this a couple months ago. My mom said, I think you'd be really great if, you know, we have a daughter one day if you're you get to coach her play volleyball or play volleyball. And I said, Oh no, mom, I will never be a coach. And she goes, why? I said, Because I get too much into it that I won't be able to separate. And I already know that about myself, and I want to just be kind of like, you know, what you're able to be for your uh um students and your uh athletes. I just want to be for my daughter. Like I don't want, like I could, I think I'd be too harsh. I don't think there would be love, right? Like because I I just like, or like because I like watch sports games. I'm like, well, you know, like you yell at the TV and I'm like, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't want to be that I don't want to be that. So it's like I have to check myself, but I think it's also like knowing where you want to show up as a parent and how like how do you support your kid and what that looks like and being okay of like, yeah, maybe so-and-so is coaching them. I don't have to be, I get to play a different role, right? Like I get to be a different voice and how that shows up differently. So love, love that that you shared

Hope For Women In Athletics

SPEAKER_02 49:19

that. Um, so next question What gives you hope for the next generation of female athletes and just like future for women and athletics in general?

SPEAKER_00 49:26

I what gives me hope is first of all, all of the women's shoulders that we're standing on, right? I look at people like Kat in our sport, Kathy George, Mary Weiss, like all those who came before me that like I am a baked end head coach as a female because of them and because of what they've done. Um and now there's seven of us, right? And there was years that Kathy was the only one. And so I think what I'm grateful for is that representation is growing, right? And that matters. You know, I if you see her, you can be her. And that's important for all young women, right? Um, from a variety of diversity reasons, right? If you see her, you can be her. And I want to young girls to know they can they can do it, right? And so I I what gives me hope is the growing level of women in all college athletics, whether that's administration, you're seeing more women in football programs and basketball programs as referees, right? You're just seeing women show up in spaces they have historically not been invited to do and saying, I'm here and I can do this. And to me, that gives me hope. And I hope I can continue paving and trailblazing the way that the women before me did for those young girls who are now growing up saying, I can be the next Harper Marine, right? I can be the next big 10 head coach, I can be the next NFL female referee, right? Like, how cool is that? We didn't have that, and that's pretty gives me a lot of hope for the future.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Yeah. I hope one day I have a daughter and she's like, hey mom, I'm gonna go uh play flag football. I'm gonna be like, oh, I wish I could have played flag football when I was your age, right? Like just the opportunities that like are out there in so many different ways. So I love that. Um, so kind of to wrap up, I always ask like some fast questions. And so if I if you had to choose your zone of genius, which is usually where your greatest strengths and your biggest passions, and something that like if you could work on something for eight hours in a workday, what would that be? What's your zone of genius? Do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Okay, this is crazy as like an introvert at heart, but like I love the relationship piece of my job. So if I could have a coffee, a lunch, a meeting with each one of my athletes for eight hours a day, I would do it. Like I just love learning their stories. I love building their trust. Um, whether it's recruiting, the athletes I'm recruiting, whether it's our current our staff, right? Like, and it drains me. It does. Like I, I, I have to like, but when I do it, and when I like I had coffee with one of our student athletes yesterday, and I walked out of that coffee shop and I just felt full, right? I was just like, man, I learned so much about her and her story and where we're at. And I'm so proud of her and I'm so happy she's part of this program. Like, that just fills my cup, and I love that part of my job.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

I love that for you. That's awesome. So, what would you say is a lesson that life keep hand uh kept handing you until you learned it?

SPEAKER_00 52:22

I like control and that you are not always in control, right? And for me, it's my faith, right? For me, it's God's faithfulness that like God is faithful and he has been. And there are times that I have to just keep making the next right decision without knowing what's going to happen, right? I moved to Chicago, then I spent a year in Lincoln, Nebraska, and at the end of that year, I'm like, I have no idea what's next. I'm coaching club, what am I gonna do? And then Keegan Cook calls at Minnesota. I take a chance, I go to Minnesota, no idea, right? And in two years from being a club coach, I'm hired as a big ten head coach. Within two years, and guess what? I would have never predicted or could control that, but to me, it shows God's faithfulness and it's taught me that like I don't have to have all the answers before I take the next first step. And that has been very freeing in in my life and actually in this role that is a head coach, I will not know all the answers, and I can still move forward without knowing what the outcome is going to be.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

I love that. That's a great lesson for anybody, especially the controllers type A people. Okay, last question. What would be your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Okay, so I'm like an emo girly at heart. So when I work out with like my trainer, we're always playing like 2000s emo block. So it'd either be like something Lincoln Park. Love that, or it would be like far over closer by the chain smokers. Because anytime that song plays, I have like three DMs or people being like, because that was like my song. I mean, I moved into my office, Lisa, and on my office from our facilities, who is my dear friend, is like this framed on my it plays every warm-up for me. Like it's just become this, like so. Actually, I would like something a little bit like darker, but um, if I had if I had a locked up song, it'd probably be closer by the genes.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

I love that. And you know what I'm gonna probably do and get in the car and like listen to that song because now like that is like a that's a good one. Awesome. Well, it was so it was so great to chat with you today. I love the conversations about like women's sports, just being a leader in general. Like, how do we show up? I love your thoughts of like trust and love and harsh, like that is just so beautiful. And like, congratulations on what you're doing. I love seeing women just succeed in so many ways. I also know that it's never easy to get to where you're at. So please make sure that you're celebrating all of what you've accomplished. Um, and I'm excited to see what you guys do this new season.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Lisa, thank you so much for your time. I we could have been here for two more hours. No, I know, girl. It was awesome. This was amazing. I really appreciate it. Yes.

Values Takeaways And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_02 55:08

All right, thank you so much for tuning in into today's conversation. Um it was really fun. I loved it. I had a, I always have these like feel good feelings after podcasts where I'm like, oh man, I want to be that person's friend and want to get to know them more. And I think the other uh, the the one thing that really stood out, there was a lot, but um the alignment to your values. I think that that is so powerful. I love that we had that as like our filter of how do we make decisions. It's something I teach a lot in my keynotes. Um, we've talked about it before on this podcast, but we haven't recently. And so if you're trying to make decisions in your life, like what are the values and how are you utilizing those as your filters, what I would want you to take away, along with many other things. So if you enjoyed today's podcast, please, please let me know. Subscribe to our YouTube channel, check out our website, DM me, and let me know what you took away and how you're going to implement them to your lives. Truly, I just love hearing from all of you. I love having the audience tell me what they're taking away and how they're implementing it into their lives. Um, so thank you for tuning in, for being on this journey with me. And as I say at every podcast, continue to spread love and kindness to everybody that you meet. And have a great day. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Confident Podcast. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear about it. So send me a message at podcast.lisaTarkington.com. Don't forget, while you're there, to subscribe to our newsletter, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and don't forget to spread the good by sharing this with someone in your life. Remember, you have the power to choose confidence every single day. Keep showing up, keep striving, and keep believing in your potential. I'm cheering you on, and I'll see you next time.