Welcome to the Misfit Behaviorist Podcast. Join your hosts, Audra Jensen and Caitlin Beltran, here to bring you evidence based strategies with a student centered focus. Listen weekly for practical and functional advice, along with actionable tips tailored for ABA professionals, special education teachers, and anyone dedicated to supporting students with diverse needs.
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Audra Jensen: Audra and Caitlin were here.
Well, we thought we'd just start talking and see where this goes. And so today, one of the first things we want to talk about is a, viewer question or a, I think it was on Facebook or Instagram or somebody. So somebody had this question. I thought it was a really good question that I wanted to talk about.
So this is the question. The school teachers and the consultants tend to have a varying view on how things should be done. I completely understand where a teacher can be burnt out, especially with the unemployment shortage of assistance. However, how do we get them to understand that we are not there to criticize what they are doing, but to assist in behaviors that may escalate before they get better, but in a relatively short span?
That's a really good point, because if we just continue to, If we continue to just let, please the individuals and reward the wrong behavior, we're actually setting them up for failure. I thought that was a really good question that has a lot of kind of pieces into it.
Caitlin Beltran: Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've chatted about this before in that whenever you are consulting or working with a teacher, like almost immediately, you feel that because you're like, no matter what I'm going to be giving you more work to do.
Like, whether I'm agreeing with you, validating your approach, like, loving everything you're doing, at some point my job is to make a suggestion, which I'm sure they somewhat appreciate on some level, but also it's physically going to be something added to their plate, which I hate, but to get to the question, it's a necessary evil to get to progress.
Audra Jensen: And I found over time that a lot of teachers, they get to us at the point where they're in such frustration level, it's hard for them to accept. the things that they have to do, which kind of sucks, you know, a lot of times they want just take the kid be done. You know, they're at that point. So I think a lot of what we need to be better about is catching those situations way before that point of frustration is helping the teachers identify what kind of supports that that would help them.
You know, every teacher that I've met. Their heart is always in the right spot, especially ones who have been there a long time. They know those kind of precursor behaviors or students who are kind of on the radar that kind of need to be, they need support. And sometimes they feel like because they have so many years of experience that they can just tackle it themselves.
Where, you know, if they brought in somebody to support them earlier in the process, I know a lot of districts, and I think yours too, are going to the RTI system or the MTSS system where they're, they're starting to put these place, these, supports in place beforehand, which is so helpful. So that when we are called in, it's kind of the professional, the kind of the end result.
We're, we're not just whack a mole and trying to figure out. Everything's already on fire. That's what I always said with my colleagues is like, sometimes we're always called in and everything's already on fire. Call me when you see this first spark and let's see if we can stop it before it happens. And so that's one thing.
Caitlin Beltran: And I also feel like what you were saying, like a veteran teacher versus a new teacher and everyone has a different style and approach, you know, and I always try and I kind of, I loved meeting and getting to know the new teachers and letting them know, like. It doesn't ever look like a sign of weakness if you're asking for help because I think there's that stigma sometimes like I just started it's my first year I don't want to be like knocking on people's doors and I always say my suggestion that I would do when I was teaching is ask someone for help in the sense of saying what would can you come in and like tell me give me feedback what I'm doing wrong? Obviously, there's a way to do it, and that's going to make or break your approach.
Like, yes, if you're a new teacher, and you're banging on your principal's door by lunch, like, well, this kid shouldn't be here, and this is all wrong, you got to fix this. That's not the right way to go about it. But if you're just saying, look, I'm trying these things, this kid's a little skitchy, like, can someone just come in and, lay eyes and tell me if I'm on the right track? That's super helpful. You've got a foot in the door.
Audra Jensen: Yeah. One thing that I always taught all of my staff as they were going in any, you know, BCBAs I had sending in, any RBTs I had going into a classroom, that the number one thing for them was to be asked back. What I mean by that was their goal in going into a classroom, the very first thing they should be doing is whatever they can do to be wanted back into the classroom.
So you can go into a classroom that is absolutely the most atrocious running classroom you've ever seen, you've got to find that one thing that's running well. Or you go into a you know a teacher who's absolutely done with the student and they have so many behaviors you've got to find the one thing that they can do to help them a little bit because if you go in and you come out and you give them this huge list of 20 things to do,
Or, you know, take the, the super complicated data collection that we want you to do. It's just, they shut down and, and then you're not getting anywhere. So the one thing I always told them, the first thing for you, the one thing you should do in going in is be able to ask back and be asked back. So have that build that relationship of trust with them, with the teachers, and so that they want you to come back.
Caitlin Beltran: I love that. And I think it gets to them seeing us as a real person too. So I know when I first started I was thinking that, okay, these teachers have so much to do. I'm coming in for this kid and this issue. I should help them right away and I want to give them something as soon as possible.
But then like you said, they're seeing us asthis, you know, robot who's giving them this sheet of paper to mark things on. And so even just like that little connection, I guess I used to think it was almost a bad thing to have that human connection because it was like, I don't know, taking more time or somehow wrong.
And now I see it as like you said, I want them to see me as a real person who's trying to help them. So I love going, the idea of going in with the mindset of your number one goal in your first observation should just be that they want you back in your room. And the next time they hear, Oh, Caitlin's going to pop by again next week.
They're not like, Oh, again, they're like, Oh, okay. That could be okay.
Audra Jensen: So I thought of, I thought of five tips with a little bonus one of, kind of addressing this question of what can we do to get the teacher buy in.
So the first thing I thought of was to always find something positive. to talk about. A lot of the, the observations that I'd have to go in, I'd write up a full observation report. I always had a much larger section of those positives that you can pull out. There's always stuff that can be done. And if, especially if you're going in and making an observate or a recreating a report for the teacher to use, you know, a lot of times they actually like that.
What can I work on? But I always really want to focus on those positives, so that's the first thing. tip number two was to provide one small thing for them to do. So even if I create a long list of things that they, they can eventually work on, I want just one little thing for them to do by the next time I see them.
So if I'm coming back the next week, I'll give them one thing. I want you to, I want you to create a token board and try it out. Or I want you to provide, three pieces of positive praise to that student every hour. Something very specific, something very small that they can do, and then when you check back the next time, it's really easy.
How did that one thing go? And then you can address all the hundreds of other things you want to work on. Right. And my tip number three was to provide them ways for them to see objectively how things are going. So. That's where kind of our data comes in. Very nice for them to see. So a lot of times we'll get teachers who are like, you know, I feel that this is getting better.
I feel that this is worse. Or I, I can't do anything else. I've already done everything. And helping them see kind of those objective measures, like behavior is getting better. You know, it kind of feels like you're still kind of in the quagmire. But behaviors really are getting better and look at this.
This is really nice.
Caitlin Beltran: Can I just say I think that's so important because I noticed this past week we came back obviously from winter break January 2nd so we had technically a short week even though it was the longest short week ever. It was a 4 day week and I feel like several classrooms I went into this week those same classrooms were saying right before break it's getting so bad, it's getting so bad, and then this week when I checked in it was like things are really good lately and I'm like, One of them, it was like Tuesday at 1130.
So like, I appreciated it, but I was like, how, how can you even have a, a measure of how it's been? We've been back for three hours. So I think we forget as humans, how important our perspective is. Like we all came back tired, maybe refreshed, it just hadn't been much time. So to make any kind of judgment, I thought was, it was just like an interesting um, and I think that's a really interesting kind of thing that made me smile a little bit because you just forget how much your own perspective is so different from another person's perspective.
Audra Jensen: I've had so many situations kind of on the flip side where either a parent or a teacher is like, you know, things are absolutely atrocious, they're getting worse, and we pull out the daily data, and we're like, actually, according to his daily reports, he's actually doing much better.
You may be seeing it, kind of feeling it, because maybe he's expressing it differently, but You know, it's technically getting better.
Caitlin Beltran: I always share with my trainings when I was teaching, there was a student who like his behavior was screaming at the top of his lungs and it was short, but he would just, and so we would like, click it because it was so frequent.
And by the end of the day, you're just like, oh, my gosh, like, leaving with a headache. And I always share that until we started tracking it, I was way off the mark. If you had asked me how is it going because literally if someone's screaming in your face 25 times versus 50 times versus 75 like it kind of is all a blur and Once we started tracking it and we put in this intervention And I remember the BCBA showing me as compared to baseline and she asked me how's it going?
And I was like literally the same no difference and then she showed me it was 75, now it's 50, now it's 40 and I'm like, oh my gosh, like how did I not notice that? But again, you're being screamed at 40 times a day, so it wasn't like it wasn't something you would just notice on your own
Audra Jensen: and when you're in a situation, it's right here It's hard to see kind of those subtle differences.
So if you're tackling a behavior, that's this big and it is making difference, but if you're right here in the behavior, he's still screaming, you know, and it's still by the end of the day, your nerves are fried. You're not going to like how you have somebody else kind of step back and look at the whole picture.
Caitlin Beltran: Totally that I just always remember that as like a light bulb moment for me where I was like Oh, maybe there's something to this data piece like early in my career.
Audra Jensen: Okay, so tip number four was to provide them and I mean the teacher positive reinforcements for their efforts. And that could be, I mean, I used to take in donuts and Starbucks.
You know, gift cards. It's something to make them feel like they're, oh, they're what? Valued. That's the word I was looking for. Make them feel like they're valued and something's important to them. And then also specifically, just like we do with the students, we want to be specific about our praise with them.
I'm very careful about giving specific behavior praise to the teachers, their efforts. Wow. You know, I, I so appreciate that this data is so clean today. I can see exactly what happened throughout the day. I really appreciate it. It makes my job easier. And so just being specific with them too, and they really appreciate that.
Caitlin Beltran: I think that's the most important thing of what you just said is that genuine feedback, where it's like, wow, I really do appreciate it. I think earlier when I started, I would be more like, I'll bring you coffee. I'll bring you a donut, you know, something like that. I wasn't not genuine, but I feel like people have mixed feelings about that, and maybe people are like, okay, sure, whatever.
And even though it was a genuine effort on my part, to me, I know when I receive, just a genuine compliment, nothing beats that. Like, wow, someone.
Audra Jensen: Well, there's a difference between, hey, that's really nice, and wow, you value what I did. You know, there's a definite difference between those two. For sure.
Oh, yeah. Tip number five. What would you do? What can you do to take the load off of them? So sometimes in our position, we're like, in this bubble. We, we know all the things that in a perfect world would be done, could be done, and the student's behavior would improve, or the skills would be learned, or whatever it is, but we don't have perfect bubble situations in school, and so what can we do as the BCBA, or the behavior consultant, or the teacher, mentor, whatever, to take some of that load off of the teacher so that, that bubble is kind of expanded, so we can help them create that.
And so, you know, if we're looking at different data collection measures, what is it that they can do, realistically within their classroom and those students, and what can we do to help them and support them? So maybe it's a data collection system that needs to be unique to that teacher, something that they can do.
You know, I've had some teachers who can do a very quick yes, no type things, and other ones can give me lots of anecdotal notes about situations that happen. So really, what can, what can we do to help them, some of the data collection and stuff we take like on, daily student behaviors? It's really easy for me to graph and to kind of analyze that.
And so rather than early on, I try to show them how to do it, you know, thinking it would help me out. It didn't really help me out. And I'd rather just give, leave the stack of data sheets there. I'll take them all, you know, I can put those in, in 15 minutes and analyze it. So, and I would take that away from them.
They were so grateful for that. I was thinking too, the first example, going back, it was like in tip number one or two, when you're talking about a token board, like, can you make a token board and try that? and I'm thinking of, maybe two different classrooms that I work in where, one, I would definitely ask the teacher if she, had a token board in use already that she could duplicate, and another, I would never even think of asking the teacher to make it, I would just be like, let's try token board.
Caitlin Beltran: What is he like? I'll make one for him. Or I have a couple extra because and they're such different settings, right? Like we call them a self contained classroom. One, the teacher has fewer kids, more staff. They're making that stuff all the time. Whereas if I'm in a first grade inclusion classroom, maybe she has one para or two, but they're not used to making those.
And it would, the amount of time it would take her to make them Okay. So not worth me asking to do, and then hopefully it gets at showing that teacher that I'm invested too and I want to wear and I can show it to the kid. And that part I think is to piggyback off of this whole theme. What can I do to help set up the process, but also again, I think when I first started, I was like, okay, I'll give it to you and that will be where my help comes in. But now I'm more of the mindset where I'm like, would it be helpful for me to show this to the student?
Cause I know your time is so precious if you're teaching a whole class versus if it was a smaller classroom, like maybe it's really helpful to just have an adult spend quality time with that kid for 20 minutes and go over how that works. And in my mind, I'm so laser focused on this student in your room. I'm, I could be forgetting that like, again, you have that whole other class to teach. So although obviously you want the teacher to have the connection with the student as well. Sometimes it can be helpful to just offer your time in those settings.
Audra Jensen: And then you're also going to have the difference of if you have an RBT or somebody you're mentoring in there's a difference between a teacher who's actively working with you know 30 students and doing stuff to help them and then mentoring somebody to learn the skill set that you're talking about so you may you may be able to very quickly do a token board for this teacher over here but this RBT or BCBA in training or behavior specialists that you're training, you might want to show them how to do that because they need the skill set too.
So it's kind of, it's always dependent on your audience as well as, the situation. So yeah.
Caitlin Beltran: Yeah, we don't have any, we do have some paraprofessionals that are working towards their RBT in my school, but I don't have any, like, I'm a one man show, so I don't have any, supervisees or trainees or anything right now.
Maybe one day in the future where that's all they're doing, which I think I've seen more and more schools are. They are. They're moving that way. I, I would love that. That would be so helpful.
Audra Jensen: I've been in the field so long that I went from, you know, when I got into the field, what, 15 years, 20, I guess it's over 20 years now when, when we started my son, there were no behavior specialists at all in any of the schools. And then it went for oh, and it was fully paid, you know, privately paid ABA services outside of school. That's all it was. And then we saw the transition from that into insurance payment. And then we sort of started to see, there was this weird surge of they let some people into the schools and then there was a lot of litigation and then they pushed all the private consultants out of the schools.
So we saw that happen. And then their move, finally, they're moving now towards having in house BCBAs, which is great because then they have control over the situations in their school and it does provide them some protection. So now they're moving from BCBAs to full behavior support programs where they have, you know, RBT's and other people in too.
It's just kind of fun to see the whole gamut happening.
Caitlin Beltran: I remember this is totally dating myself, but I was literally sitting in my BCBA class in my first semester and the professor was like, oh my gosh, did you see the news? They finally approved ABA therapy through insurance. At the time I was like, what is happening?
I don't know what the meaning of this. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, like now It's so not taken for granted. It's, it's still hard.
Audra Jensen: It's kind pendulum is swinging the other way. It shift has been huge. Yeah. Yeah. We were, my husband was working at Microsoft at the time and Microsoft was the very first insurance company to do that because, well, it was Microsoft and everybody there is autistic and so they had an organization and they had self-funded because it was Microsoft, you know, they have all this money, so it was self-funded insurance.
And they had this group of parents, and I wasn't in that group, but I was one of the, the patients, we were one of the patients that were in some of the first ones that they came together. They went to the insurance provider. They created the benefit. They explained what it was, what they needed. And then they create it.
So it was that one. And then military was the next one. And we happen to be military too. So it's kind of once those started happening, then the other ones. But now we're at the point where everybody funds it. And now insurance has their hands into everything and they're telling all the providers what to do and where to go and now there was one, somebody commented that they had switched from, this isn't at all what we're talking about, but I think it's interesting, but they had switched from the ables to the BB map and the insurance or it was the other.
I don't remember which way it was, but the insurance company had denied it because for whatever reason, you know, they just decided that that, that, assessment wasn't, they need to have evidence of that and like, they're, so the insurance companies are telling the providers what to do anyway. That's a whole, that's a whole topic we can go into it.
It really is. All right. Well, those are our five tips to getting teacher buy in. And, If you like what we're talking about, then, I guess subscribe or whatever it is. comment below. I have, I'll share with everybody a, classroom daily report that I used with inclusion classrooms. It was just really easy for, teachers and, and, both gen ed and special ed teachers connect when they don't have staff in there all the time.
And so I'll put that in the show notes. I tell you, we're just figuring this out every day. we're gonna give this a try and see if we can be of some help. So we'll see you next time.
Caitlin Beltran: See you next time..........
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