The Misfit Behaviorists - Practical Strategies for Special Education and ABA Professionals

Ep. 3: 6 Ways to Approach Challenging Behaviors and Trauma-Informed Care

February 21, 2024 Audra Jensen, Caitlin Beltran
The Misfit Behaviorists - Practical Strategies for Special Education and ABA Professionals
Ep. 3: 6 Ways to Approach Challenging Behaviors and Trauma-Informed Care
Show Notes Transcript

📣Takeaways:

  1. Build a relationship of trust. Bond, be present, show interest, make YOURSELF a reinforcer, create a safe place for your student.
  2. Provide predictability and consistency. Not only help you and your staff but gives your students a sense of safety and security if they know what to expect and when.
  3. Give choices. Such an easy but powerful strategy! Remember the “frame.” The non-negotiables are the frame of the picture, but everything on the inside can be fluid. Brushing your teeth is non-negotiable, but you can do it in the bathroom, sitting on the toilet, on your bed, with this toothbrush or that. You get the idea.
  4. Pick your battles. Does it matter if they want to walk in the hallway sideways? Or that they want to do their math worksheet sitting on the floor? Maybe, but maybe it doesn’t. Again, giving back control may make a huge difference!
  5. Plan ahead. You know your student and can often predict what the triggers are going to be. If you plan ahead and prepare, when challenging behaviors occur, you know what to do. It’s also good for the student!
  6. Start fresh. Once an incident is over, let it be over. Start fresh. Other than good-practice debriefing, let bygones be bygones. Each day, each hour, even, let it be a fresh start.


💎Today’s GEM: If you wanted to just pick ONE thing to try this week, take time out to build a relationship with a kiddo who’s struggling. Maybe you invite them to come play a game. Maybe you bring a favorite treat just for them. Maybe you just tell them how much you appreciate how hard they’re working.


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Welcome to the Misfit Behaviorist Podcast. Join your hosts, Audra Jensen and Caitlin Beltran, here to bring you evidence based strategies with a student centered focus. Listen weekly for practical and functional advice, along with actionable tips tailored for ABA professionals, special education teachers, and anyone dedicated to supporting students with diverse needs.Ready? Let's get started. 

Audra Jensen: Hey, everybody. Welcome back. We are so excited to be here. I'm Audra Jensen, and I'm here with COVID stricken Caitlin. How are you feeling today? 

Caitlin Beltran: Hey, it's Caitlin. hopefully we're not editing out too many sneezes. Otherwise, I'll be fine.  

Audra Jensen:You know, all this time and everybody that I know has had it, I have never had it even once. I mean, I know people have had it like three times and I, not even once? 

Caitlin Beltran: Second time husband never gets it. So really he's immune. Yep. 

Audra Jensen: Yeah, we're immune to a lot of things like, you know, good ideas. I'm immune to that healthy. Definitely immune to that. Thanks. So anyway, so we're here. We want to talk about some trauma informed care. Some strategies that we've used over the years, a particular case that I had a couple of years ago that was really fun that I was able to see, trauma and core care is kind of something new that we've, we've always been aware of being informed about trauma based situations but over the last few years it's become much more in the forefront..

And I think I've seen, and Caitlin, you can tell us too, if you've seen a change in the behaviors of students over the course of the last, you know, maybe five years, definitely COVID had an impact on that, but I've definitely seen a lot more students who come in with, heavy backpacks on as they come into the classroom already from, a background of trauma or just having their own kind of internal trauma that they're dealing with.

And I think we're having to change a little bit in how we're addressing those behaviors in the classroom and in home in our own families as well. And so I wanna talk a few minutes about that. What do you think? 

Caitlin Beltran: Yeah, I think for sure, we've definitely seen an increase in trauma that we at least know about, because I mean, you know, who's to say, like, is it just more being talked about now, people are sharing it more, or we're more attuned to seeing those things, and then also, you know, a welcome change has been that we're using more trauma informed strategies.

And I know when I first started, I mean, this wasn't, you know, the buzzword that it is now, not to say that it's just a buzzword, but this wasn't an approach that we welcomed or embraced or really just knew about. So I'm really glad that we're talking about it because I think sometimes people are like, Oh, that sounds great.

I want to do that. What is it, you know, and I think it can mean different things to different people. So I think the example and the visuals you're going to share at the end are great starting points. 

Audra Jensen: Yeah. I remember even when my son was in ABA, this was 25 years ago, just starting out. Some of the practices that we had with him are very different than what we would do here today, 25 years later.

And as we grow in a field. And we mature and do things better. I think we're all the better for that. And while we had a very good experience with ABA, we definitely would do things differently now. He turned out okay, though. He's a pretty good kid. But 25 years ago, it was much more about, this is the expectation, you do it, it doesn't matter what your background is, what the expectation is, is what you do.

And today, we're a lot better about thinking about Those backpacks that the students have on what they're already coming in with, and how can we change the environment? How can we change our instruction to be better suited to make them successful? And I think that's really important as we think about that.

So some common principles that we think about with trauma informed care. are, you know, making sure that all students feel safe and have a place to lead. We're building trust with them. where it's important that we build in peer support, which was not something we talked about as much when they were little 25 years ago, having typically developing peers.

It's really important to have that. collaboration with other professionals, with the parents, making sure everybody's on the same team on the same, talking about the same thing, doing the same strategies. And, you know, having their own personal identity issues that we need to be aware of. So things have changed over these 25 years, which I'm very grateful for.

Caitlin Beltran: Yeah, to me, I feel like, and I know you're going to talk about this too, but just that element of us putting ourself in our learner's shoes and seeing things from their perspective every single day was not something that we were taught to constantly be thinking of. It was, it was always our, the center was around the therapist.

And getting this student or the learner to do certain skills, which obviously we still want to shape skills, but I don't remember ever being, you know, not ever, but I just feel like the forefront right now, which I love is constantly thinking, okay, yes, their skill may be here and we need to get them here.

But also, how are they feeling? Like, are we? Putting ourselves in their perspective so that we're exploring any possible trauma and like working with that to make sure we're starting at their level. 

Audra Jensen: Yes, and even, even beyond just trauma informed, just being good, responsive therapists and responsible students.

I remember when Isaac was It was our very first, we went through a couple of different providers when he was little to find the one that kind of matched us really well, you know, and that's really important if you're a parent thinking about this, that you don't have to take the first person that comes along, you find the person that fits your family.

Anyway, we were going through a couple of different people and kind of finding the first feel, and, my son also has hyperlexia, so he had an incredibly obsessive need with letters and numbers, and he was focused on that, you know, and he's two years old or whatever, he's really little. And then he started to read really early, and we, as a family, were like, this is a great in to be able to teach him strategies and stuff through the written word that he's really interested in.

But he was kind of obsessive about that stuff. And so this particular BCBA, she was great, but she wanted to take all the letters and the books away to focus on the other things because he was so perseverating on it. And it just didn't sit right with us. And so we actually moved to a different BCD in the same agency who was much more open about using that as a skill.

And so she was very responsive to us as a family and what we thought was important and it worked beautifully. And I think that's important that no matter what we're doing, that this is what we need to be responsive, both to the student, to the family dynamic, what's important to them. And so those are just things that I was thinking about, too.

Caitlin Beltran: Absolutely. And that ties in with just the perspective. Like, imagine if the thing you love to do most in the world, and someone just came and snatched your book away that you were reading. I mean, how traumatic could that be? And like the feelings and behaviors that would likely come along with that. 

Audra Jensen: So, yes. But we got through it, and he, we were able to use those skills, and it was a great experience. So I had this other case a couple years ago that I want to talk about, it was an interesting case that really got me thinking about being trauma informed and being really receptive to doing things differently, depending on what the student's needs were.

And this was a cute little kid, man. He was so darling. I think he still is. He's like in middle school now, but he was, I think he's in first grade when we first were called in. He'd had his kindergarten year in kind of the gen ed setting. He had a history of trauma. He had been, adopted from a very difficult so he had some drug abuse background withdrawal.

He had a bunch of abuse things going on. So he had a lot in his backpack and he was able to make it through that first kindergarten year, but he had a lot of sent homes, a lot of suspensions, a lot of room clears. And by the time they called us in, it was me and an RBT, and they called us in, and he was in, I think they'd already placed him.

Now, remember this is a few years ago. I'm old and brain doesn't work as well. but we, they called us in, he was in 1st grade, he was already placed in the structured learning center, the behavior program. but his behaviors were continuing to escalate really bad, and so they were doing almost daily handholds.

I mean, they're doing full on, you know, restraints on him because of safety. He was trying to lope out of the campus. He was ripping down all sorts of stuff in the room. He was having very significant behaviors and so they called us in to help. And as I, we started looking at what his needs were and what his background was. 

I'm sure there are a lot of people aware of Hanley's My Way protocols, which are amazing. I mean, his work has been really good and kind of shaking how we're changing ABA today. But one of the things that he does is this my way protocol in In a clinical and also in a school setting, but it kind of developed a setting where you can really control the environment.

Right? And the idea is you give all control back to the student. I mean, you basically give them all the control in a very structured setting, but give them all the control and then very slowly implement demands and providing them a way to access through functional communication, a way to assert what they need and then we respect it.

And it's a very slow and methodical way to build that trust and to build the ability to, make progress and to get out of kind of this fix. And, and this poor kid was in this fixed thing, you know, as soon as the demand was placed, he, he went into immediate shutdown and then escalated almost. It was like guaranteed you would escalate to huge escalations at that point.

So we wanted to see what we could do. And this is, again, a few years ago, and they're doing a lot more in schools now. But we, so we thought about, okay, so his SLC program. Was in a portable that was not cut in half, but, you know, half of it was the SLC program. The other half was like this motor room sensory room that they use.

And so we got permission to kind of take over that sensory room in order to administer this kind of modified my way protocol. And what we did was we gave him the opportunity. You know, he came in. Basically, we wiped the slate clean. We started from scratch. he was very verbal. He has a behavior disorder, but no autism or anything.

He has great language. So we were able to sit down and say, Hey, we, we want to try something. And we want to do something really fun with you because right now it's not fun for you to come to school. And we want to change that. And so we took this room that was right next to him. We kind of set it up all for him.

We had all safe equipment in there. So if he did have an escalation, he would be safe. so we had the room and we had safe equipment in there that if he did have an escalation, he would be safe and we had staff that were all trained and what to do.

And we had all of his favorite things in there. So we started with what we called the no demand or low demand condition. And so what we we had him do is he'd come in during the day, the very first part of the day, and we'd have up on the whiteboard a list of a bunch of different things that was kind of

his things to do between then and the first break of recess or whatever it was. And at first the type of things we had up there were like, play Minecraft together on the, with the little bricks and stuff or, read a book, one of his favorite books. We'd have all kind of his favorite activities first up there.

And we, and he then we said, okay, I want you, but these are the things we'd have to get done between now and recess, you get to put them in whatever order you want. And so he would choose which ones and we'd get through and basically all low demands, fun stuff, and we would do that. And we did that condition for a couple of weeks and we'd slowly start to add in a couple of lesser preferred things in there, the simpler academic things. It was always academics that got it. 

Caitlin Beltran: So let me just back up for a second. Let me ask you a question because as a BCBA in a public school, I'm like, I love that you are meeting him where he is, explaining everything to him, you know, putting it like shaping to his level.

But logistically, how did you get support? Or was that difficult? Or was that a barrier to get support from the staff and admin and maybe the rest of like the building to kind of buy into this? because it's pretty different than it's like a pretty radical approach for a lot of, I would say, public schools today right now.

Audra Jensen: Yeah, that's a really good question. In this particular case, and other cases will be different. This particular case, they were basically at a "we don't know what else to do" mode, and they were looking at out of district placement. And so we're like, okay, let's do what can we do now in this setting? We did have that secondary room.

They had a different motor room if I'm remembering right. So we could take access of this one. It was right next door. It just was kind of a situation that worked out well in for this situation. I don't think it's possible to do that everywhere. Sure, this particular one was we had enough staff. At the time for for it to be basically one on one.

And then we had a secondary staff next door in case there was an escalation to step over and help. So it doesn't, you know, I've done it kind of a modified thing with several other kids where, you know, you use part of the classroom. That's kind of their setting and that's just there's where you can kind of still manipulate the environment.

 

Caitlin Beltran: What was the criterion for? So you started with almost no demands and then you kind of eased into a little bit. What were you looking for to progress to that phase? 

Audra Jensen: So that's actually a really great question. So first I want to show you this. This is kind of, this isn't the exact one that we haD for him. This is very similar one that we had. We used a red, yellow, green system where red behaviors were considered unsafe.

Yellows were kind of those precursor behaviors and then green was, you know, fantastic. Anything he's for this or 

Caitlin Beltran: Did you score this? 

Audra Jensen: So we scored we scored it. We did this with all the kids in that class. And I've done with a lot of class, but if you go to class, we do it with them throughout the day, and so they were aware of it.

And in this particular case, we're taking very clear data. The subject, the activities were a certain amount of time. So it wasn't like. Math or something, because we wanted a specific like 30 minute interval. So it was very apples to apples as you looked over the day, and so we would track this. Like I said, it wasn't this exact one, but this was just one I pulled up, but we track this at the end of the day to see the percentage of greens and yellows and reds.

We really paid attention to the greens and the reds. And so this was, the first couple of weeks before we started the, the low demand condition. And these reds are always indicative of significant unsafe behavior. So full escalations. Wow. And so you can see as soon as we started this, we saw this drop off.

It was not perfect. You know, we still have these little blips. but this is just kind of to show what happened once we pulled that control back in and gave him control, gave him a chance to feel like he had a say in what was going on to have a positive learning environment. 

Caitlin Beltran: Then were you able to maintain that low rate of behavior when you moved into the next, you know, inserting more demands?

Audra Jensen: So yes and no. demands had to be implemented very slowly. and then it's been a couple of years. I've been off the case for a couple of years, and I know that he still has some issues. so it doesn't fix everything, you know, but initially this particular staffing, they were in such a crisis mode that to be able to do this, even if it was just a reprieve for a short period of time, it was so beneficial to build that relationship back between them and the, it did continue to improve and he was able to spend more time in gen ed.

I think he's in middle school now. I think he's in an SLC, but he spends a lot of time in Gen Ed still. So, you know, it's definitely, you know, there's no magic pill. That's, I tell that to my teachers all the time. There's no, I'm not going to come in and be able to give you some magic to make it all go away. But this was really good progress and so we're happy with it. 

Caitlin Beltran: Right. And we're never looking for perfection. We're looking for progress and the fact that you were able to show the control of when he was more in control behaviors significantly decreased and just preserved everyone's safety and well being.

And then we're able to slowly kind of insert functional demands so that he was listening to things and keeping himself safe at the same time. I mean, that's huge progress. 

Audra Jensen: Have you had a case that's been like that, where you've been able to kind of manipulate things in an environment setting like that?

Caitlin Beltran: It actually was reminding me of, one case that I had years ago, and this was at an out of district placement, so we were able to really fine tune every assessment and protocol that we did, but this was a student who was not as verbal, and so he was not able to have that level of conversation with us always, but he had significant behaviors And so, we were Due to not only restricted access to items and activities, like if he was watching the iPad and it was taken away or time to end, it would, a huge behavior would start.

But also just we were, we basically made a list. We had to fine tune the functional behavior assessment and the functional analysis. We were doing that. We noticed he had behaviors in response to things being taken away, but also just physically hearing the word no to the point where even if we said no, it's not raining today, we would often see a behavior and it took us a while to find that pattern.

But he had such a history with this word no, and I guess associating it with, you know, being told no about things and so kind of same as you're describing we we scaled all the way back, and we shaped it to the point where, we would give him the iPad, for example, and then take it away, and then one second, and be like, great job relinquishing, you know, in kid friendly language, like, great job giving it to me for my turn, here, it's your turn to get it, literally one second, and then each condition that we had mapped out, we literally slowly and systematically built up to where we got to five seconds, and then ten seconds, and then What like with most things, I think we saw that when we were, it took a long time to go from one second of no behaviors to five seconds to 10 seconds.

But then once he got it, even though he wasn't able to have that conversation with us, we knew he got it from the behaviors dramatically decreasing. And then we really saw the progress soar and then we did the same thing with tolerating hearing the word. No, we would just say, no, it's raining or, you know, something we would shout this, like, exclamatory phrase that was really meaningless, but that triggered him in some way and then we would reward him or reinforce his lack of behaviors immediately and then slowly shaped that condition out.

So it was, I would say, very successful. Again, a very structured setting, but the fact that we were able to fine tune it. Figure out exactly those triggers and then scale back. So where we were shaping it, I guess kind of using similar techniques to the Hanley approach where we're looking to just eliminate the behaviors first thing, we're not looking to put anything on extinction. We're going back to that skill building lens. And so that was really successful for us......... 

Audra Jensen: Six ways that I think of most important when we're trying to be trauma informed. Now while we're talking about being trauma informed, these really are strategies that are used with not just students with disabilities or students with behaviors, but typically developing students.

These are all strategies that are really helpful for everybody. and some of the things you're talking about, made think about it like for this one, building a relationship is, I think, the most important thing that we can do as a teacher with our students, whether those students. Have a trauma background have a disability or are typically developing building that relationship.

So being able, oh my gosh, I can't tell you how much I know of Pokemon and Minecraft that I never thought I would know before. 

Caitlin Beltran: But my favorite person, my son is obsessed with both, and he will be calling you for facts. Excellent. 

Audra Jensen: We've lost a little bit of it but yes I mean, if so when I ran a clinic I used to do interviews as we were hiring staff.

One of the pieces of the interview we'd call the working interview and we can't really do that in a school setting, but we were able to do that in the clinic so we would have the regular interview and then we would schedule a time to do a working interview. And basically, the working interview was, There's a kid over there.

Go play with him. And that was the interview was watching to see if you're able to get down on the ground and interact with your student, whatever level they're at. It tells you so much about what type of a therapist and a teacher you are and being able to build that relationship at whatever space that that student is in.

Caitlin Beltran: Right, and that's so important that you said that because, you know, anyone can kind of get right next to the student and start talking to them, but also just being on the lookout for their cues, you know, you'll see a student who's immediately kind of shifting back. And then, so it's not just putting out, but it's also picking up what the learner's putting out and responding to that.

Audra Jensen: Connecting your, your language with their language ability, you know, nonverbal, minimally verbal student. You're not all the time because they're not able to functionally understand and respond to that. So like, use one or two words. That's all you need to do. And yeah, and then the other thing really came from, I think it's floor time and PIR that came from their ability was really amazing and being able to teach their people to get down there.

If you have a student that is in self stimulatory behavior, you can engage with the student, get, you know, make yourself the most. reinforcing thing around the student. So having the most important things to the student with you, if they're doing something, you can do it with them. You're going to find you're going to be able to open up their ability to interact with you as you're doing something that's important to them, whatever it is.

I mean, I have spun in circles and played with ribbons and then all sorts of silly things because that's what the student was responding to. So it's great. So number two, I would say is be consistent. So in a school setting, in a therapy setting, in a home setting, I mean, I'm sure everybody out there, almost everybody is a parent, and you know how important it is to have consistent boundaries and expectations.

That it's not just because we want to impose rules on the students, it's because it gives them a sense of safety. They know that if they do this, this, or this, then this happens. And that gives them that sense of safety that they're seeking. the third thing I was thinking is, and this is a big one, giving choices. Giving choices for anything you can think about so the student feels that they have control. Choices can be as simple as, you know, instead of saying you know, it's time to sit in a circle, say if you want to sit in the blue chair or the red chair.

Do you want to? Oh, we're doing math now. Do you want to use a crayon or a marker? You know, it's like giving them.

 

Caitlin Beltran: I can't, I can't tell you how many times I've recommended this just as like a simple proactive strategy. And you know, sometimes you'll get the question like, well, it's not a choice to do math, and it's but it's like it can be a choice, right?

And we used to call them like artificial choices. Exactly like you just mentioned. Do you want to use a pen or a pencil? Do you want to sit next to me or do it yourself? And it's amazing how sometimes you'll see that anxiety decrease like immediately on the learner when it's not just like, sit down, do math.

And I use that all the time in my own household with my son, just with simple, you know, learning to be, learning to respond to routines in the household types of things, like. You know, put your snack away. I just, I'm never going to, it's never coming naturally to me to just say, do it now because I said so.

That's just not my personality. So if I notice something's laying around, I might say like, okay, before bedtime, that's going to be put away. You can do it whenever, if it's not important, if it's important and it's in someone's way, then that's different. And that goes back to being consistent. I think like you said.

Audra Jensen: Right. In fact, there was a, one of our listeners reached out last week, I think, I said, can you talk about the difference between imperative and declarative language? And I think that's something we should do a podcast on soon, because that fits right into this and to be able to use and the difference between imperative and declarative, being able to, the difference between saying, do this, as opposed to saying, it looks like our friends are dot, dot, dot. It pulls so much of that anxiety and stuff away from the student who, you know, maybe has a history of not getting the right answer and having a reaction at home or at school or whatever. So, that is something I think we should talk about soon is imperative and declarative language would be really good.

For sure. Number three, pick your battles. I have a friend I'm going to bring on to the podcast in a few weeks who has a really good story of something that happened. It's a really good example of this, in picking battles of things that are not important and things that are important. And then, I know I've always taught my staff that to think of it like a frame of a picture.

So consider the things around the frame as Things that are non-negotiable. You know, brushing your teeth is not negotiable. You gotta brush your teeth, but everything in the middle is fluid. So if you wanna brush your teeth sitting on the toilet, if you wanna sit in the bathtub and brush your teeth, I don't care if you wanna do it in the shower, that's fine too.

So anything you wanna use the this brush, this toothbrush, don't use the toilet brush. That is a non-negotiable. So, you know, you have these sort of things that are around the frame that are non-negotiable. Everything else. You know, be, be able to say that is okay. So you have a student, you know, I understand that you have 30 students in a classroom.

It's harder to do, but you're able to do in smaller set. But if the student wants to sit on the floor to do their math, is it, is it really that important to make them sit in the chair? So just think about what the, what kind of the end goal is, you know, is the goal to do math or is the goal to sit in the chair?

 

Caitlin Beltran: I love that picture frame analogy because I think sometimes when you say or anyone says pick your battles, it can be misinterpreted. And so just using the brush teeth example, it's like, well, I told him to brush his teeth and he said no. I didn't want to pick the battle, so I moved on to something else and having it like, yes, pick your battles, but you have to know which battles you're picking first.

You can't decide in the middle. Oh, you know what? I kind of made the expectation clear. This was non negotiable, but then I'm just going to back down. That's not consistent for the learner. So pick your battles, but know which battles you're picking and which ones are non negotiable and what's fluid and what's not kind of from the start.

Audra Jensen: And we know our students, we know our kids, you know, we, we can predict pretty reliably what's, what's going to trigger things. maybe if it's a new student, it's a little bit harder, but for the most part, we know, and to just think ahead and plan ahead for them. And that just gives them again, that sense of safety.

In having things already figured out beforehand that reactive stuff that we do. I mean, we all do it. We do it as parents, do it as teachers. We're reactive, too. Especially when you're dealing with challenging behavior and there's, you know, a big behavior. It's really hard not to get reactive to not get that emotional response to just take a breath and to go.

Okay, we plan for this. What is the plan? Let's let's go from there, right? All right. And then this, this 1, I think is really important. Just starting fresh. You know, it. I talk a lot about the crisis mountain where, you know, you have a student who kind of escalates and then kind of makes their way back down.

They're never going to be kind of in a perfectly calm setting once they've had an escalation. But once we're done, we're done, you know, and let the, whether it's the next day or the next hour, whenever they're ready to re engage, that's it. I mean, we don't need to harp on it. 

Caitlin Beltran: Absolutely. There's no such thing as just nothing to be gained from just stewing or living in that behavior for the rest of the day.

Audra Jensen: And to not take it personally. I've seen staff. It's hard not to, but not to take some of the behaviors that we experience and we're a part of, especially when they're attacking us, you know, physically attacking us. It's hard to not take some of that stuff personally, but to remember this is a student who has a backpack on and to remember that it's It's not their fault that they're exhibiting this behavior that and it's okay.

So just kind of stepping back and this is just, you know, this thing is happening over here and I'm a part of it, but it's not on me. 

Caitlin Beltran: Where can people find that visual? Audra? 

Audra Jensen: So, I just made that visual for our little podcast today, but I am going to link, I made some FBA visuals, kind of behavior plan visuals, and I'll add it into that, and I'm going to share that with everybody. So, let me show you. So these, behavior plan strategies that are really helpful, but the thing I really want to share with everybody Is this mountain. I like this as a visual, just in thinking about our students and a mountain that they're surpassing. They're climbing over when they're having these crises in realizing that they're in a ready state to learn when they're down here.

Once they're having that anxiety and that kind of non compliance that we observe, and then an unsafe, if we're having a full escalation, no learning is happening up here anyway. And then it takes time for them to come down the mountain, you know, it's, it's. This is not a quick fix. You know, this takes time for a student to recover and for us to be mindful that it does take time for them to go through the process and we need to give them that space and time in order to do that.

And I think it's important that we give them enough to do that. So I will link this, this whole thing for everybody into the show notes and I'll add the visual that I made today as well. So yeah, don't forget to comment if you like them. We'd love to hear from you as we're thinking about, upcoming episodes that we're going to be doing. Like I said, we'd like to hear what you want to talk about. And if you go to, if you join the Facebook group, the Misfit Behaviors Facebook group, we're going to be talking about each of these episodes and having kind of extended learning. We'd love to have you a part of it there. 

Caitlin Beltran: And don't forget to follow us on Apple Podcasts so that you don't miss an episode or you can subscribe on our YouTube channel so that you can see all these awesome visuals as we go along. 

Audra Jensen: Thank you everybody and we will see you next time.

Caitlin Beltran: See you next time.

Thanks for listening to the Misfit Behaviorist. And be sure to tune in next week for more tips and tricks. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.