Circle Live

Circle Live: Up Your Client Game with Tanya Moushi

• Squarespace Circle • Season 3 • Episode 3

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On this episode of Circle Live, we’re taking a look at ways to elevate client acquisition, retention, and satisfaction with Circle member, Squarespace educator, and author of Love is the Business Plan, Tanya Moushi.

Listen or watch to hear Tanya discuss her sales process, adding empathy and character into your client acquisition, creating engagement-driving websites, and more.

Discover key selling strategies like:

  • Making client interactions more human
  • Building trust that leads to more business
  • Asking the right questions during client consultations
  • Optimizing websites for engagement

Register now for the next episode of Circle Live, and in the meantime, watch or listen to last month's episode featuring Christy Price.

If you use a podcast player (like Overcast), use this link to subscribe to Circle Live: https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2299108.rss

Already a Circle member? Check out the events calendar to see what’s coming soon! ➡️➡️➡️ https://forum.squarespace.com/events

To learn more about Circle, check out some resources below:

I think it's so easy in the client services world to just be a taskmaster. And, you know, er, people, you, um, people are just sort of giving you tasks. But if you can have conversations and try to understand, like what's really giving somebody a hard time, what do they really actually care about? What are they responsible for? What are they scared of? Like when you have those conversations, that's the human part that they're like, okay, this person gets me. And then like, it's not a sale. It's just like an easy choice. You know? Hello. Entrepreneurs, designers, digital nomads, and business gurus. Welcome to Circle Live, our internet talk show just for Squarespace Circle members. I'm Sam Z, your senior community events manager. And I’m Sarah G, team lead of the circle program team. Last month, we talked to Christy Price about how she grows her business with Squarespace. And today we are joined by special guest Tanya Moushi of moushi.co to talk about upping your client game. We'll share our interview with Tanya where we talk about making client interactions more human, building trust that leads to more business, asking the right questions during client consultations, and optimizing websites for engagement. We'll also have Tanya joining us live for an audience Q&A a little bit later. But to start us off strong, let's return to our favorite segment, Circle Member Moments. I don't know why, it just feels like you should whisper that. We asked Circle Live viewers, what was your proudest moment from last month? Sarah and I will now share our favorite responses, Sarah, are you ready? Yes. I'm ready, let's do it. Starting with Chris D, “Raised rates in January and had four potential clients express interest in a week.” Don't be afraid to ask for more. I guess. I love that. Our good friend Kristine N won a Graphic Design USA award for a Squarespace site that she designed. Kristine, where are you going to put that trophy? Annie B is proud of helping a client to set up her new blog and dedicated newsletter. The Power of the Written Word, at work. Justin said he launched a cheap course that has helped build my CRM by leaps and bounds. The world needs more teachers. Kerstin K said she was happy to work with one of the famous museums in Oslo, Norway, who has 198 unique visitors since we launched the site in May. GLA-tu-LAY-lay? Chelsea K-I practiced that a lot. Okay, we can tell. Chelsea K said, I was going from part-time freelancer to full-scale marketing agency this year. That is amazing, Chelsea. Darcie F registered as an LLC. Tori G learned to say nope with confidence, in her words, “Saying no never felt so good.” I love that, I love that I need to say, I need to say that more. So many great moments this month. The Circle team just loves to hear your wins. So it truly it just makes us smile. So keep sharing with us in the comments as we launch into this interview. We're going to launch right into the interview today because there's just so much wisdom to be shared from Tanya. Let's watch it. And again afterwards, you can join us back for a Q&A. I want to start with something you've mentioned elsewhere that content matters for finding clients, and that Squarespace is the best place to house your content. What do you mean by that? Yeah. So you know what, Sam, something I've done really early on, thank God, was think about evergreen content before it was like, called evergreen content. Like, I really didn't care that it was called that. I didn't even know what it was called in the beginning. But I'm talking over, over ten years ago. But I still do this now, where I'll put pieces on there that I think will be relevant for just a really long time. And over the years, it's really evolved. So in the beginning, it would be like, what do I think of, you know, this particular company and how they're handling their marketing or what do I think about. I was really kind of nerdy. I would do like things on like, Viktor Frankl and Patagonia and like all of these random like companies, and philosophers. And I would just post it. And so I remember there have been multiple times where I would talk to clients and they would be like, oh, yeah, you know, we really, I was like, why did you hire me? Like, how did you even like, you know, find me? Like, I really loved your article on Patagonia in 2015. I was like, What? I don't know what you you're talking about there, but, but then I would, like, go back, and I would see that over time. I just built up all of these assets, and now I'm definitely much more intentional about content assets. And I think about them like an asset. So even when I'm talking about content to clients, I say think about it as an appreciating asset, as something that increases in value over time, because the longer that it's online, that's what it does. Just increases in value. I got to ask, how did the Viktor Frankl content perform? Yeah, really well, actually. So I ended up, speaking on it multiple times because it was part of, this part of something called the GECKO model, which stands for Gratitude, Empathy, Care, Kindness, and Optimism. And with Viktor Frankl, I mean, he talks about how to be like an idealist and why you should be an idealist. And he calls an idealist the real realist. And so, the way that this sort of translates in business is like, you don't have to assume that your client knows nothing. You should kind of approach it with like, the sort of compassion of like they might not know anything, but you hold them to a certain standard and they end up holding themselves that standard. That's a really interesting way to get people to level up. That's just so impressive. What I find so impressive about that is, you know, if people don't know, Viktor Frankl was a Holocaust survivor and, wrote a famous book called Man’s Search for Meaning. Does not seem like the kind of thing that you would see on a business blog. But you, Tonya, are so good at something that I think that every blog writer should be good at is taking their personal interests, the things that they do with their spare time, and translating that into business writing that attracts clients. That's really impressive. Thank you. I think it's more so, that people are smarter than we think and they can see through when you when you like something, when you enjoy something, when you believe in something. And so it's so much easier to sell when you are writing about these things or just sharing things like this. So on your on your video channel, you have a video called How to Create a Product Bundle on Squarespace. And it's a bit of a hack, but we love hacks. That's one of the reasons that Circle members are so great. You all know how to do more stuff with the platform than we do. I want to know what kind of bundles are you offering and how does that help with, how does bundling help with getting you more clients? So I had a client come to me the other day and say, hey, we have this small asset company, we need a site for it. You've done other sites for us. You know, can you, can you do the site? And so I immediately was like, well, tell me, tell me, sort of like what's what's going on and where you're at with it. And he starts talking, right? And I start to learn that he's actually a professor at Boston University. And he has he has, you know, the reason for this, this asset is because it sort of plays into a bigger system that him and his family have. And so then we start thinking about, okay, well, what if we did thought leadership pieces? And what if we start doing content pieces? So we're going to do this site anyway. Does it make sense to bundle that with, actual content assets and writing? And I think that's always how you sort of grow a project. But yeah, those are two examples of actual products and then service products. People think of services like this really submissive thing. I don't think it's that actually I think it's much more like, how do you how do you empower your clients and how are you willing to do that? So you're not enabling, like the sort of helplessness, you're empowering them to make choices. And so if you come to it with that mentality of like, oh, I get to do this, and there's so many amazing reasons that we get to do this right. There's the flexibility, there's like, cool, you get to work with, there's really cool tools that we're using. But I think when you approach it with that, it starts from a place of generosity. I'm a huge Seth Godin fan. I don't know if I can say that on here, but I am a huge Seth Godin fan. He is a virtual mentor. I have emailed him and we have spoken many times, but he sort of instilled in me this, this approach of generosity. And when you start from that, everything is better. Like literally everything is better. You care more. So empathy sort of comes into place because you, you end up caring more. If you really want to understand the problems that people have. I think it's so easy in the client services world to just be a taskmaster. And, you know, people are people, you, um, people are just sort of giving you tasks. But if you can have conversations and try to understand, like what's really giving somebody a hard time or do they really actually care about what are they responsible for? What are they scared of? Like when you have those conversations, that's the human part that they're like, okay, this person gets me. And then like, it's not a sale. It's just like an easy choice, you know? So I think that's that's the way to think about it. And I also think that's why it's important to, to do work with people you love and help the people you love, because you cannot fake that. Like you have to serve the people that you actually want to win. That's my thing. I'm going to pick up on that point the helping the people you love, because you told me when we first talked that you when you were first looking for clients, you sent out a series of emails and you actually had a pretty methodical process for how you were going to start working with people you love. Can you go through that again? So I had just read an article that the opportunities you get, jobs you get, clients you get are typically coming from people that you don't actually know very well, but that you know a little bit. So it's not family. It's not close friends. Usually 80% of the time it's someone who you kind of know. And so I was very intentional about this, and I would sort of, look for different people. Mostly business owners, or anybody who would, like, kind of fit into this thought leadership space. And I would reach out to them, I'd look at their sites, and if it was, how do I, how do I say this nicely? If it was outdated, if it was outdated? I would send them a message. So I did this with five people, and I knew them enough that if they were to look me up at that time on, you know, on Facebook. But if they were to look me, if they were to look me up on a social platform, they would see that I am a friend of a friend. That would be sort of the max connection. And so I did this, five times, five different people, and I would just say, hey, I see your website. Super proud of you for having websites. I think it's like a really big thing, right? To encourage somebody. They're super proud that you have a website. I think this could be so much better. I think we could really level this up. Is that something you're interested in? And one out of those five people, responded back and took on, the deal. And that was like a get great clients, do good work, get great clients cycle that started. And yeah, I'm a big fan of, like, finding problems, like going out of your way to find problems. I do that a lot. I still do that every now and then. If I, if I get, like an email from an organization, this happened the other day, I got an email from a nonprofit and their email wasn't like which just was not composed properly, it wasn't coming through, you know, and they had such good information. And I was like, this could be so much better. And I just responded and I was like, if you need help with this, like, this is a great tool for this, it'll be so good for you. And then they were like, okay, let's talk right and then we. And so it's such a natural sort of way to approach it. But yeah I go find problems. I love that just because we have, I feel like so many Circle members who are getting started in their journey and they're like, I need to find a client. Where do I find a client? And I love the idea of pairing kind of like empathy, second-degree connections, using tools that are in toolkits that a lot of us have. Even if we hadn't started building, an actual web design business, to go out and land that first client, I feel like that's hugely helpful for so many c=Circle members. Awesome. Thanks, Sarah. One of the keys to success that you, have called out is in the form that prospective clients can use to book with you. You ask, what would make this meeting a success for you? I'm curious what kind of responses you've got, gotten to that question. It doesn't really matter what the response is, because the whole point of that response is to teach me and tell me how to aim in the consult. So it is really to to, it's definitely a strategic move, so that when I give them an estimate later, I'm saying to them, these based on everything you've told me, these are the must haves, things that you need. These are the must haves. This is what will get you, you know, the thing that you came here for. But I'm also gonna give you another option. And this other option is a nice-to-have option. It's not required. It's not based on, you know, everything you came to before you can get with this first package. This nice-to-have option is literally just to make your life easier help you in the long run. You totally can grow from one to the other, but I'm going to put both of them in front of you so that the answer to that question on the form is literally just so that I can have a really solid conversation in the direction they want, and then also to give them that must-haves option when it comes to their service package. I love the idea of pairing that insight with, what Rache De Luna shared, a bunch of episodes ago on Circle Live about, about coming to your client with three different packages, taking what you know about them, and then adding a little bit to each one to make the next package more enticing and and more exciting. It's cool that you've been able to employ something similar. Yeah. You know, I talked to somebody about this recently. They were so nervous to ask their clients, what's your budget? They were so nervous to ask this. And I was like, well, and they did, the way that they would ask it sometimes would elicit not the greatest response. And so I kind of coached them on like how to tweak this, which is like when you ask, what's your budget? They won't feel. So, you know, people are just like, oh, you're just gonna charge me whatever the highest part of the budget is. But if you're like, hey, what's your budget? Because we have a couple different options that might fit depending on it. Right. And then so then you're then they're like, oh, okay. Then they'll give you a range typically. And and then you're still putting it like so powering them to make the choice. You're like hey. And so I'll ask that question all the time of like if that's helpful for you, I'll say that. But I'll also say like, you know, what's most valuable for you right now? What's the priority for you? So that they know I'm actually listening to the things that they've come for, but I'm thinking for them long-term as well. And I think that's the difference between like, coming in as a designer and coming in as a consultant. I think that is really like a big thing. And if you're trying to up your client game, I think you want to you want to think like a consultant. You're so good at showing up and asking the question, how can I help? That seems to be just another theme with your client game. Sometimes I won't even ask a question on the call. Like the very first thing I'll say is like, tell me what's going on. Yeah, great. And or like, you know, or like, they'll just spill everything they're thinking about. And so that's, that's a really helpful thing that to say as well. Do you find, and we've heard this from other Circle members before, that a lot of times the businesses will be working with the clients. The potential clients really just want someone to listen to them and all their problems. Do you find that that is helpful for you? Like do you think or sometimes it can be like, this is too much. I don't know how to help you. Yeah. I'm so I'm really, I build in structures to help me with that. So people are always really surprised at all of my consults are 20 minutes long and they're only 20 minutes long. So you book a time on my calendar, it's 20 minutes. And there's two reasons for that. One, I think if I'm doing my job well, I should be able to pick up, I should be able to ask the right questions and pick up what you need in that time. And that's where that question really helps too, Sarah, is like helps to sort of keep me on track. Like what, you know, what would make this successful meet for you. But then also there's like a little thing of generosity that happens when you go over that time, right? People are like, oh, I know we're over time, but and it's a good it's a it's like a good feeling for them. And I have enough buffer in place. Like technically speaking, my calendar has like 30 minutes before and after each meeting. So there's enough buffer in place that we can go over. Not a problem. But, you know, in their mind, they're like, we have 20 minutes to do this. And then I'm very intentional about, sending an estimate afterwards. So we don't talk about pricing in the concept. The whole concept is just to hear them out, hear what they need. So but that is how I restricted from completely draining, draining me emotionally. That is such a great tip with client calls to build in a buffer time so that you can say to them, you know what, it's okay if we go over that. I mean, I just hear you saying that and I'm feeling I'm not even on a client call with you. I feel like I'm being taken care of. Yeah. That's great. Good. That makes me happy. Do people ever abuse that? Do people, like, keep you on for half an hour? I mean, it's pretty, we're, we're having a great conversation if it's going for that long. Yeah. And it's you know, and the almost always people are super respectful and be like, do you have a couple more minutes, you know, or I'll say, you know, if we're in it, I'll say, you know, I know we're right at times, do you have a couple more minutes, like, I do wanna talk about this. Oh, that's so great. In the, in the client call, what are some other tips you that you've developed over the many times It just seem like you have a lot of good, a lot of good tips in this area. This is a huge thing. So positioning yourself as a partner that is with them to get whatever aim, you know, whatever aim they're they're trying to achieve. When you do that, it's the way that you naturally approach it is not like, hey, I'm here to do this thing for you. It's like, hey, we're doing this thing together. I'm just someone that can help along the way. And that has, like, changed the game in terms of getting retainer clients. So I know we talked about this a little bit. I've done a lot of what I preferred one-off projects for a very long time, because I like to start and finish, like, and I'm, you know, one person every now and then I'll bring in a contractor. But, the thing that would get me through, like, slower times is I was super fortunate to have retainer clients, and I could get those retainer clients if I really loved the work that they were doing. And so, you know, if there was a nonprofit that would, you know, publish white papers or something, it was more like, you know, how how can I help you just sort of, you know, either build your presence or, you know, establish yourself to get funding or it would be a lot of these things of like, what are we doing together? So positioning yourself as a partner is definitely key. And then something that has always helped me, that I think helps me more than I even care to admit, is that in every single project I will do video tutorials and I will put that on the actual estimate on the invoice. It'll be a thing that says video, you know, video tutorials and then, 60 days of post-launch support, which is really nice. It's again, kind of coming to this feeling of like, do you feel taken care of? But the reason I do that is, first of all, I want them to manage their own site from the, from a logistical side, it's it's better for me unless I absolutely love them and I want to be like part of their team in a way. For the most part, I want them to be able to manage their site, but something that I always promise, this is like the company promise, is if you ever do hire us for support, it's always out of convenience and never out of necessity. So it's not because you cannot, you know, go in to the site and make changes, it's because you don't have time or there's other things that are more important for you. So you can always hire us at a convenience, it’s never out of necessity, it’s never because you have to. Most of these people have been burned by so many web companies in the past that that is like such a huge selling point for them. Could you tell us about your community discount? Yes, yes, yes, I totally, totally forgot about that. Thanks. So, so there is something so whenever a referral comes through and, you know, it's like 90% referrals, it'll say at the bottom, whenever I'm doing the estimate, it'll say community client discount. And so if this could be 5 or 10%, depending on the industry, but community client discount is basically just saying, you know, you came in through a friend. So we're sort of all part of this thing together. And it really it's it's been a really helpful thing for people. They it's again instilling this sort of like really good feelin. Tanya, there's a book that a couple folks on our team have read which is Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara. Are you familiar with it? Yes. Okay. I feel like you perfectly embody it. So I'm like, surely she's read it. But I feel like the example that you gave about padding the 20-minute calls with clients is such a perfect example of creating an experience that could be normal, but you have made it somewhat unreasonably generous. So I'm curious if you have any other examples of ways that you've kind of brought the that principle of unreasonable hospitality, hospitality that just kind of like feels overly generous, to your processes with your clients, if you have a good newsletter that's actually delivering things that are very helpful, the way that it keeps you top of mind is incredible. And so I think if you, it's not just, you know, if you're really intentional with the newsletter, like, like half of my newsletter is literally like, this is what I'm doing and I'm in London today and this and but the second half is always behind my business, and it's a very transparent view of this is what I'm thinking about. This is where I screwed up. This is like what I did really well. This is, you know, I'm going to be on Circle Live and I think you should register. There's like all of these like, pieces of, like, what's going on. But that, that to me is like an act of generosity. And people have thanked me so much for showing up. And they knew they know when you're doing, like, kind of hard things, you know? So, I want to move into your site, moushi.co. With selling package digitally, packages did digitally, you know, there's a way that you have it so optimized for engagement. One of the things I love about moushi.co is that it really feels like a web store- web store full of different things that you can purchase. You've got the advisement, which you call therapy for businesses. You've got your collection of favorite tools which you're not selling. But this is just, you know, one of those resources that you can send people to. Could you tell us about the development of your Squarespace sites and just how you've thought about growing them to be more engaging? Was that by accident, or was there more intention behind it? The intentional development that happens, I'm totally honest, is the thing that I love about Squarespace, which is you can go into the back end at two in the morning and play with things and be like, this feels right. And you wake up at like nine the next day and you're like, this is all wrong. Let me think. It's like, you know, like, let me, reorganize this in the daylight and see how it feels. But yeah, I think it's it's very experimental for me. And as long as I have the sort of core things taken care of, like right now, I am actually working on a completely revamped client services page, still on the back end. It's not live. That's that's really exciting. And that's really coming about because I have somebody who's willing to manage that sort of channel. So it's growing as I grow. Can you give us a little background on your client services page? Just if there's anything you can share on how you're building that. Yeah. So the way that I'm thinking about the client services page is in terms of verticals. And so I'm doing, the verticals that I love, to, to, to focus on. I am doing a page for each one of those. And any insight on what the verticals are, or is that something you're still discussing? I know what they are. And yeah, I know what they are. No. You know, it's so funny how these things come about, like, I never want to admit that luck is such a thing, but luck is a thing. So an industry that I love. And actually, there's a lot of sites that are built on Squarespace for this. I really, really love, the real estate advisory. I know, it's super weird. Real estate advisory, even properties. I'm like a big fan of buildings. Every city I go and you'll I'll just be like, what my the things that I love to do is to walk down the street, take pictures of buildings. But I think, I think any kind of, like, real estate property is really cool. And, and the way that I fell into that is like my neighbor was a real estate developer. And so I always learn so much from him that I was like, oh, this is really cool. Let me just get. And so it's like so funny. And you play to your strengths in that way. But it just happens, you know, based on your life experience. So I know someone who's like amazing at doing restaurants because his mom was a chef and he's just like, now he's like, does a restaurant website. And so finding that alignment, I think is really crucial and, and really helpful because you naturally have this enthusiasm for it. So generous of you to share your journey with us and explain all of the various parts of your mind. You have such an interesting way of thinking about business, and I'm glad that we got to take the time with you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you both have me. So thanks, Tanya. Yeah. And we are back live. We have such interesting people in the Circle community. Watching that now, just so many great things, even though I was there and I've watched it since then. Just like kind of I hear new things every time I listen to that interview. Sarah, what's something that you took away from watching that just now? I think, yeah, obviously I was also there when we spoke to her, but I think hearing it all back, it's clear what humility Tanya operates in all of her interactions with her clients, in her conversation with us. And I feel like when you're interacting with clients who, you know, maybe they don't know as much about web design as you do, maybe they're intimidated by some of this stuff, because it's not their first language like it is yours, as a Circle member, operating with that humility, making them feel comfortable, making them feels safe in that space, seems like it's doing wonders for her business. Absolutely. What about you, Sam? Any big takeaway? The thing that stuck out to me was newsletter content as generosity, when she said that, newsletters, would you put into your newsletters of generosity and act of generosity? In the meantime, just got a quick little break for right now. See you soon. Today's Circle Live is brought to you by the Circle Referral Payments Benefit, or CRPB. The CRPB is available for Circle Gold Partners and Circle Platinum Partners everywhere, empowering you to unlock earnings by referring new annual website, Digital Products, Email Campaigns and Acuity Scheduling subscriptions. Signing up for the Circle Referral Payments benefit is fast and easy. Just visit support.squarespace.com, search “Circle Referral,” and follow the registration instructions. Then, start earning commissions by referring your clients to qualifying Squarespace subscriptions that can help grow their business. And we're back, and we have a special guest to join us here live. Hi Tanya. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. So delighted to have you here live with us. Thank you for wearing similar clothes as you were in the interview. Continuity is a thing, you know. It is a thing, we've never directed people to do that. But people just always take that note. I don't take that note myself. I'm wearing a slightly different, shirt today. So, But to start off the Q&A, Sarah, what questions are you seeing in the chat? Yeah. For sure. So, we have a question from Megan, that I think was in reference to when you were talking about, reaching out to folks and giving that, you know, generous email where you're like, I see you have a website that's amazing, but you need to improve it. Megan was wondering, was anyone ever upset by, I think, the notion that maybe their website needed work? I saw that, and I love that question, actually, because, no, no one I have ever reached out to has been upset. I either get no response or someone's like, yeah, it's pretty bad. What can I do? It's it's really it's just that if those are the only two responses I've ever gotten, that's amazing. And I'm very happy to hear that. Alexandra asked. She says, I agree. It's a great idea connecting through connections, but if you don't have a client already in your contacts and in order to, if you already have one client, how do you use that client to find more clients? Yes. So I did see that in the chat, and I think it's more, they might have mistaken that for like, the connections coming just from clients, but it's not, actually. So it's more so that you're seeking problems from people who kind of know you already. So if you see. So it's like a friend of a friend. So it doesn't have to be a client connection. It could be like a friend of a friend on Facebook or a connection on LinkedIn, like a second-degree connection on LinkedIn. But that's what you're looking for, just some kind of acquaintance-esque. And so that if they look you up, they can see like, oh, they know this person that I know. That's really the extent that we're looking for. So you don't need to have a client in order to sort of reach out to people and say, hey, I can help you, you know, with this. By the way, I wouldn't actually just say, hey, I can help you with this. I would say, hey, you know, I noticed XYZ, so some kind of problem, on their site or something that they could optimize, that they might not be thinking of. And there is some nuance to this, right? You definitely want to approach it in a way of like, helping or sometimes I'll just give a valuable tip, or a resource. But you want to go for a friend of a friend or some kind of professional connection? Awesome. Can I ask a follow-up to that? Yeah. So with the giving of the tips and, offering yourself in generosity, where, where is the limit to that? Where does that feel like you're giving too much? Where is where, you know, what are your feelings about working for quote-unquote, free? Yeah, such a good question. I'm so happy you asked. And I would love to talk about this as, as a minority woman in the tech space, actually, because when I give these kinds of tips, it's usually pretty minimal. And I've had to gauge that, to be honest, over the years. So for example, I'll, I'll send like a screenshot and do a point out and say like, oh, this, you know, this email's coming through kind of funky. You should try campaigns. I noticed your site is already on Squarespace, and I'm able to tell that because I'm using, you know, like some kind of extension built with or something. And so I'll kind of, I'll do like a little bit of digging on my side, but I won't overextend. And that's something that you don't really learn until later. But when it does come to sort of pricing CRM and, and like, how do you know it's too much and should you do things for free? I don't think that you should do things for free. I think you should help people in a way that you would naturally sort of help people. I think we all sort of have a gauge of like, oh, I kind of feel taken advantage of just a little. But, something that I did early on and actually I had a partner at one point in my career sit me down and say, like, you are not operating a charity, like. But to give you an example of how this sort of plays out, I had a nonprofit come to me for a web design, a website, and, in my mind I was like, oh, you know, they need, you know, they're probably on a budget. It's a nonprofit, right? I got really like, how can I help them the most? And so, like, can I or can I skim? And we're building out some pretty extensive systems for them. And I remember I, I did the the project for $11,000. This is what I estimated to be. And I've done projects anywhere from, you know, from 2000 to $20,000, but this one was $11,000. And the, the person that I know, my point of contact called me, thanked me for the estimate. She's so thank you for doing that. She's like, just a heads up. The budget for this was $30,000. And why, you know, why did you price it like this? Because she was getting bids from everywhere. And I was like, okay. And I just didn't know, right, I didn't know. And so that sort of sparked me asking about range and helping people see, that there are different sort of value points, how much we can help. And what's important to them is the question of like, what's your priority helps with that is my very long winded answer. Yeah. Just in summary, what I get away from that is that, it's your choice that you get to choose and maybe your ability to choose better for yourself and your business grows with time. Yeah. And and I, I really I honestly use bigger clients sometimes to subsidize smaller clients and I think so one of the the really cool things that I do with my company is we have two pro bono projects here, and those pro bono projects are basically quoted as regular estimates and then cut 50% discount. And so a good like sort of method of engagement is they'll ask like the newsletter subscribers or my, friends on social media, like, who should get this right? Who what nonprofit should do this? Nominate a nonprofit. It's a really great way to get involved in, like, in front of people. And you're sort of cutting that cost in other ways. And so you're still, at the end of the day, helping who you want to help, which is really so great. And that feels the underquoting in the contract feels like a lesson you learn one time and then you're like, okay, yeah. Sarah asked, do you have a link to the GECKO model that you talked about? Is there anywhere people can learn more about that? You know, there isn't. I have a, but there will be. So if you if you go to moushi.co, it’s m-o-u-s-h-i-dot-co, and all the way to the bottom of the footer, if you sign up to the newsletter there, there will be. It's actually based off a talk I gave called The Human Side of Web in 2015 freakin’ ten years ago, which is just like blowing my mind. But it has carried through that framework has carried through all of these years. People always remember it. And so I will be doing a special presentation on just that. That's awesome. Nigel says do, do you only use email to reach out to people, or do you also use LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook? I really only use email. My, all of my socials are really siloed. And I used to have a business Instagram and then a personal Instagram. I don't do that anymore. So my Instagram is probably my, like, closest friends and the people I’m most engaged with. LinkedIn, and I have started to do more posts there, especially now LinkedIn is investing in video a little bit. So I've done a bit more there and I will be doing more there. But as far as reaching out to clients, I will say actually people have come to me from LinkedIn posts, I would say more than any other platform, but that's because I have a very specific B2B clientele. But yeah, otherwise, like when I, you know, when I was, when I was using Twitter, now x, I was, it was all my tech nerd friends who like to build things. Right. And then Instagram was like travel and food and like that. My socials were very siloed. Yeah, that makes sense. This is kind of interesting. I don't know if it's something you run into before, but Ella says where, where are you based? And are there any anti-spam legislations in place that make reaching out complicated? It sounds like. Ella’s in Canada, maybe. And business owners can't reach out directly somewhere. Is this anything you ever run into? Not here. So I'm based currently in Phoenix, Arizona, but I've done a lot of work and I spend a lot of time in London. But, most of the time the actual business is based in Phoenix, Arizona. And, most of the time my emails are again, when I say, like, friends of friends, it's not, like, I'm not buying a list or anything. It's like I ended up on a list somewhere, or I saw somebody’s email featured as part of an organization and then I kind of dig deeper. So I think a lot of people are scared to dig deeper. And when you even just see somebody's email address, you can go up and, you know, go and look at their website. There's so many times that I've gone and just looked at their site and it would it would be horrendous. And I'd be like, listen, you are a professional. Like, what's, what's going on here? You know? And so even just that little bit of digging will take you such a long way. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And sounds like it's like, less blasting and more your, you know, your target and what you're doing. So I totally makes sense. Sonya says I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Nice. Have you ever had a potential client that you didn't feel was a good fit after the consultation? And if so, how did you handle it? Yeah, such a good question. This is a great question because people are always like, well, what do I do with that person? You, you have certain things in place. So you either have a resource depending on their budget. But it it's also just up to you. You can either have a resource that you give them, right? So some kind of like a recommended template, my book is full at the moment, here's a recommended template that you can use or you can have referrals in place. I love to do this. We've cut down client projects quite a bit because I'm doing much more advisement these days. And so I have like a good amount of people who I refer to, even in some cases, when they're just, like, looking for different things. You just have partners in place, whether it's a, a copywriter or, you know, another website designer. Like, I have, like another Squarespace designer, that when I have overflow, I just send people to her and it's all either do like take a referral fee or she'll give me a discount if she helps me later on. So having referrals in place is really, really good. It's a really good thing to have ahead of time or, and or some kind of resource that you can give someone that you might not love to help, like, there are a lot of professionals on here that don't do solopreneurs, I should say, that don't do e-commerce because it's a lot for a solopreneur. If you're good at it, great money maker. They do it. But as a solopreneur, sometimes it's tough to manage. And so having somebody, or an agency on hand that you can work with and set up some kind of referral structure is a great way to go. Awesome. That's totally a recommendation that we give, to folks of all levels of experience, in the Circle community, is if you're focused on web design, you don't do copywriting, find someone who does copywriting. And when their copywriting client needs a website, they can send it back to you. And when your client needs copywriting consulting to them. And you can do that for so many different things. SEO, email campaigns, any number of things. And you can build out this network for yourself and, kind of all be bringing in clients, together without necessarily needing to be all on one official team. So there's the building network. Yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a chapter in my book called Your Competitors Are Partners. And if everyone here looked at everyone in the chat as a partner, your business would double because you can't do everything but people but you, but you do have some kind of specialty. Or whether it's a local specialty like you know, literally like someone, geography-based like that, you're choosing clients that way or some kind of niche specialty. It like, you have that if everyone reframed that honestly, God, you would have, you know, however many people we have in here, almost all of these people as partners, if you thought about it that way, you would just expand the business so much. I'm a believer. Sam, do we have time for more questions? We definitely have time for more questions. Yeah. Okay, great. I think you talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious if it's changed over time. Darcy asked, how does LinkedIn come into your client pipeline model? Yeah, I would love to say that I'm really well structured on this, but I'm not. I, what I like to do is test posts on LinkedIn, and what ends up happening is people find me, actually. And so, I'm a big believer in that sort of content assets, right? I talked about it in the interview a little bit, where each post that you make, each, each blog post, each LinkedIn post, all of these things are content assets. So they are things that live online that work for you in the long run. And so the more that you post things like that, the more you get attention and right. Marketing is marketing is really just like, how do you stay top of mind when somebody needs you? And so you do that. At least I do that in this sort of indirect way where you're sort of teaching people how you think by just sharing how you think or sharing what you're working on. Like, you're not necessarily like, hey, you know, let's, let's connect here and hey, check out my portfolio. You're not doing that. What you're doing is saying, this is a new site that I did. This was the challenge. This is why I made these tweaks, and this is how I think it's going to help. And then you shut up, and then you, like, put that on there, and. Yeah, just stop, you know, or if you notice, you have an observation in one of your calls or you have a particular struggle, you share it. People are human beings. They know that you are not perfect 100% of the time. They know that you struggle. They know that there, there are rough clients and there are fantastic clients. And sometimes I'll share like a client win or I'll share, if you have no clients, it's totally fine. You can still look at something you love and share it and say, this is what I love about this. That's it. It's just an observation and it just teaches people the way that you think. And that for me, when we're talking, talking about upping your client game, that to me is the difference between identifying is like a designer or a consultant, which is someone who is thinking through these things with a bit more depth and about, like how it can help you, actually. Design is fantastic, and Squarespace makes it super like super easy. And we still have amazing designers. But if you're talking about trying to up your client game, trying to get more, retainer clients or higher revenue projects, then you have to sort of come with it, with the mentality of like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a thought leader in this space. And here's why. You have to sort of think about yourself that way as if you were, I know this sounds, like, kind of weird, but if you were a doctor or a lawyer, your job is to get as much information as you can and to help people, no longer need you. That's actually the job. And so when you, so you want people to be able to come to you with problems and if you, if they can, like if you're approachable enough and you have displayed you demonstrated some kind of competence and warmth and you've sort of opened the door for that to help. I feel like you're just like every time you talk, it’s like, woah, I just learn so much. I have other questions I need to get to, otherwise, I would just, like, really sit in that. We have time for one more question. This is really great, though, Tanya. One more question. Question? Let's go with, I think, Karen’s question that was, that says how would your strategy, what would your strategy be to deal with a client who keeps changing their scope and not moving through to kind of sign off, contract signing, but keep wanting to change, the scope of their project? I didn't hear the first part, but I think it was, what do you do if clients try to change their scope? Is that. Yeah. Before and then after you sign a contract. Those are always so fun. I so, you know, a best practice is always the 50% deposit. And, and then I do a 50% deposit, and then 50% on launch. That's how I do every web project. And I have a package that includes those line items. So, there have been a handful of times, I'll say, over the last ten years that I've had to gently nudge a client and say, it's not included, but I'm happy to help you with that after we finish this, or that's or if I don't want to work with them, I'll say, you know, I'm happy to a happy to give you a referral for that. Let's take care of this first and then we can we can talk about that. You know, definitely something I can help with. And so I will I will sort of make sure that they, know that we can we can actually help with it, or I can give you a referral for it, but we're like nudging them back in place. And then or I will straight up say like, happy to help with that. That's going to be, you know, an extra $15. Are you okay with that? Do I have your approval to go ahead with that? And then that way it's documented. They say yes or no. Yeah. Because it's really it's really rare that a client will come back and be like, you know, no, it's not okay. I expect this. It's like you could just refer back to the estimate and just say, it's not that's not in here. But I think that comes with practice. And if you like the client, you want to work with them, give them an option, to, you know, to add another line item essentially to the, to the invoice. And if not, then give them a referral. So. Good. Well, Tanya, you have my referral for podcast guest. If anyone comes asking me, I will send them directly to you. This has been so delightful to get to interview you, to get to know you. And, also just to, get your answers on all of these questions. You've been so wise and so generous. Thank you. Sam. Thank you both for having me. We will definitely have to have you back some time. So good bye for now. Great to have you. That, speaking of time. Speaking of time, I was just talking about time, and I'm speaking about it now. We all love saving our time. I'm so excited to share that Circle members will soon have access to something new. In addition to the existing saved sections features that saves a section of the website, you can soon save a section to your account. This will help you reuse section layouts and base content across multiple sites, saving you time. Wow. I, I think this is going to be groundbreaking for Circle members. I'm really excited too. Keep an eye out for this in upcoming Release Notes. This is a feature that we know you're excited about. It's been on the feature request board and it's going to be exclusive to Circle members. So keep an eye out. That is all for today's show. Thank you for joining us live. We’ll be back with Circle Live at the end of next month. Until next Circle Live, this is Sam Z, and I'm reminding you that email automations starts with humans. Bye everybody.