When farmers became heroes — the liberation of Le Quesnoy | EP 85

To mark Anzac Weekend 2026, we’re bringing you a special episode that reaches back into one of New Zealand’s most remarkable wartime stories.

In November 1918, during the final days of World War I, New Zealand soldiers achieved the extraordinary by liberating the French town of Le Quesnoy without destroying it. Many of those soldiers were farmers, young Kiwis who'd left behind their land, livestock, and livelihoods to serve on the other side of the world.

More than a century later, their legacy still lives on not just here in New Zealand, but in Le Quesnoy itself, and the bond remains as strong as ever.

In this episode, we’re joined by Jacob Siermans from the New Zealand Liberation Museum – Te Arawhata, located in the very town the Kiwis freed. As Project Manager of Operations and Marketing, Jacob shares the story of Le Quesnoy, how it’s remembered today, and why it continues to resonate so deeply with both locals and New Zealanders.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

They would have heard these stories of the old world time and time again, and yet they would never have gone more than you know five kilometres from the family farm. And so to be given the opportunity to come over here and sold this lie that it's going to be a really great experience, it's heartbreaking for me that they came over here and uh you know men like Walter, um just 22 years old, fell and are with us for forever here in France.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hi everybody and welcome back to the Federated Farmers Podcast. This is Ben Chapman Smith. To mark Anzac Day this year, we've got a really special episode for you. Back in November 1918, in the final days of World War I, New Zealand soldiers carried out one of the most remarkable feats of the war: liberating the little French town of Le Kenwa, without destroying it, scaling its walls under fire. Many of those men were farmers, young Kiwis who had left behind paddocks and stock to fight on the other side of the world. Now, more than a century on, that story still lives on, not just in New Zealand, but in Le Kenwa itself. And today we're joined by Jacob Siemens from the New Zealand Liberation Museum, Te Arafata, which is based right in the town that the Kiwis freed. Jacob is the museum's project manager of operations and marketing and has kindly joined us to share the story. Hey Jacob, thank you so much for joining us from France there. What's the time?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

So, well, thank you, Ben, for having me on. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Before we get into this amazing story of Le Kennois, can you just briefly tell us about your personal connection to Federated Farmers?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, so Federated Farmers has recently become very important to my family because my my father, Mike Simmons, has just been named um CEO. So we're yeah, it's a it's awesome to be uh to be a part of the Feds family. Um and uh look, I tell you, it's just such a pleasure to be able to contribute to uh Federated Farmers from uh almost as far away on earth as possible over here in France.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

A lot of people listening to this won't have heard of where you work. What is Tiarafatta, the New Zealand Liberation Museum, and how did that come about?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, so Tiarafatta, our our museum over here, um, it's our center for remembrance on the Western Front. Um so of course we're we're talking about the the First World War here, the Western Front passing through uh Belgium and and into France. Um and Tiarafata, the New Zealand Liberation Museum, is uh the first museum uh of its kind like this for New Zealand to be really a center of remembrance for our people. In fact, it's the only museum dedicated to New Zealand outside of Altera, um, and so something really, really quite particular here. The museum has been open for the last, well, coming up on three years now, uh, and it is the it is the culmination of uh well a lot of hard work uh for people wanting to keep the memory of the New Zealand soldiers during the First World War um alive. And um that uh something which is really particular about this museum uh when you compare it to some of the other uh commemorative centres here here on the front, um talking about a place for the Australians, a place for the Canadians, a place for the Brits, is that our museum is completely independently run um and uh independently funded as well. So this is not a uh not a government museum, but instead it's a uh it is a museum which was established by individuals, again, kind of showing the strength of our uh duty of remembrance back in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, it's fantastic. So you're saying that individuals fund contributed the funding?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, that's right. So so to establish this museum, um about 20 years ago, a group of New Zealanders came together saying, you know, enough is enough. Uh these other countries which contributed just as much as we did, um, they they have a place on the on the front, but New Zealand never did. And so they came together and said, look, we we really need to write this wrong. We really need a place of our own. Um and so they they raised all of the money, uh, about $15 million, um, and managed to purchase the incredible building that the museum is in uh and transform it into a place which is really worthy of the sacrifice uh made by the New Zealand soldiers, uh, well, New Zealand generally, across uh four years of the First World War.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Talk to us about why it's in Le Kenwa. What makes that town so significant to us Kiwis?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

And at the same time, tell us a little bit about the town, what it looks like, and what feel of the place is Le Kenwa is a name which some New Zealanders will know, but I'm I I completely understand that to many people they they wouldn't have heard of this story before. Um the names which really echo with New Zealand in the First World War, well, there is one big name which always uh comes up for the First World War, and of course that's Gallipoli. Uh but by the time that the New Zealanders reach the Western Front, of course, they will pass through places like the Somme, um, they will go up into Flanders. Uh, some people might might know the name Passchendale, where we suffer our worst uh our worst defeat um in a in a single day, 850 men falling. But many people won't know the name Le Kenwa. Le Kenwa is the is the final action of the New Zealanders on the Western Front, and in fact, during this war. It's the 4th of November 1918 when the New Zealanders um arrive here. And so why is this town so significant to the New Zealanders? It's because we we have an incredible victory at the at the end of the war here. Uh, and what is even more peculiar about this victory is that there are only New Zealand soldiers here. So in all of those other battles, um, you know, famously in Gallipoli we're alongside the Australians, um, in the Somme where we're alongside the Brits, and then you get to Passhendale and we've got the Canadians who come to our rescue. Here in Le Kenwa, our victory is created by the New Zealand soldiers only. And so we have a truly New Zealand story, which is why La Kenwa was uh was chosen. But maybe I can tell you a bit about the uh the Battle of La Kenwa. A crucial thing about this town is that in the middle of the 17th century, so over 300 years ago, the town gets these incredible ramparts built all the way around it. And when I say ramparts, I mean these uh impenetrable fortifications, three levels deep and as tall as 20 meters high. Those walls um remain very useful to the Germans who have captured this town back in August of 1914. And so for four years, the the Germans have kind of been hunkered down inside this town. When the New Zealanders arrive here, they've developed a strategy uh throughout the towns as they've rolled north here uh alongside their Commonwealth allies. And that strategy is quite frankly to encircle towns and flatten them. Uh the the move is not to you know try to trifle with uh with what's going on in these towns. They don't want to send men in because they know that there will be traps, um, men will be picked off by snipers, and so they they turn the guns on and they they flatten these towns. However, a problem presents itself when the New Zealanders arrive in Le Kenoir on the 4th of November, and that is that there are still about 1,600 French civilians within the walls of the town. They've been locked away for four years by this point by by the German occupiers. And the New Zealanders know that, of course, if they launch their shells into the town, they will destroy not only the town but the lives of all of these civilians. And so a uh a new means of taking this kind of town has to be developed for the New Zealanders. They will send troops around, uh, they will encircle the town, and the thinking is that the the Germans who who are really, really lacking resources by this point, that they they're not going to die for this town. They'll they'll give it up. And so on the morning of the 4th of November, the New Zealanders uh make this assault on the town. There are men all the way around it, and they ask for that surrender. But the Germans, of course, they're in an impossible position. They have a wonderful fortress here to hide behind, and the New Zealanders, for whatever reason, have decided not to bombard them, and so why should they give it up? They're gonna hold on to it. And so, as you know, as they say, the the die is cast. Uh, the New Zealanders have to choose what they're going to do here. Do they turn on the guns or do they try something a little bit more innovative in kind of that typical New Zealand style? And um it falls to a couple of young New Zealand uh second lieutenants, um, Leslie Averell and Harry Kerr, to try to find the one place around these walls, as tall as 20 meters in some places, where a 10-meter high ladder will reach the top. And after a full day of uh trading, trading blows with the the Germans, they manage to find that position. 13 men move forward, they stretch this ladder up, you know, they they extend the ladder out, and those men they climb up that that ladder and they they get into the town. And so the the 13 men as they as they climb on and in, they're the first men in, they uh they create this flood of German dissension, and before long, uh another battalion breaks through at one of the other gates. And so, what this leads to is the the surrender of the town. Now, crucially, 193 New Zealand boys will die taking this town during various efforts. But incredibly, not a single civilian was killed on the day of the 4th of November. And of course, this is a special story because very few battles happen like this without the death of civilians. They're they're there, they're they're used by the Germans to prevent the Allies from from rolling forward. And the fact that not a single civilian is killed here means that the town really holds on to this memory. It's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

What would those four years of occupation have looked like for the people of Le Quien Noir and what would liberation have meant for them?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Well, we know that the occupation was was incredibly tough. It was really, really hard. I think we don't really understand the the word occupation in our in our modern world, right? But occupation in this circumstance means complete control. Um small businesses uh shut down and and people are forced to work. Um children uh taken out of their schools and and made to work for the Germans as well. There are these stories of uh children being made to walk eight kilometres um to pick blackberries for the for the German uh garrison here, just so that they could make their jam, and then they would walk back um you know covered in cuts and bruises and everything, and and they'd have to be home by um by curfew at 8 p.m. There are some terrible, terrible stories of um you know children being spooked and running and and being shot uh by by the German soldiers. And so you can imagine that after four years, I mean, I it's hard to comprehend just how long this was as well. And the we're we're talking over you know a thousand days here of occupation for these people. You can almost imagine that they would have forgotten what freedom felt like. And so we have these uh these accounts of locals writing in their you know their secret diaries saying um you know we can feel the front approaching now, and maybe, just maybe, we have some hope of liberation. And when that day finally comes, the the people are really quite beside themselves. They they don't quite know how to react. And and the the only thing that they know how to do is to really thank their liberators as the as the New Zealanders come through. And they have this real desire to lord the New Zealanders with uh with gifts and um and and thanks and gratitude and everything, but they don't have anything to give. They've been locked away for four years. But the one thing that they do have is at that particular time of year there are wild flowers growing all over Lukenwa. And so one of the real symbols of this liberation are the flowers that the people pick and that they give to the New Zealanders. There are these stories of of you know, kiwis are um typically uh pretty pretty rough around the edges by this point. Um many of them have uh you know come straight from the farm and gotten on the um gotten on the boat uh and come over come over this way. And so to be kissed and hugged by the the local French people, you know, women, children, and of course the men as well, and then have these uh flowers thrust into their hands, tucked into their uniforms, it's a it's a massive, massive moment for them.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah, it's an incredible story, Jacob. Uh so that was over a hundred years ago. How has that moment shaped the relationship between New Zealand and Le Kenwa today? And and how do locals still honour that sacrifice that the Kiwis made?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah, the the town has held on to this uh this memory really, really strongly. Le Kenwa is the only town in France to be assisted with a town in New Zealand. That's Cambridge and the in the Waikato. And that's just one small example of the way that this town has has really held on to this connection with with New Zealand. Since 1923, one of our four memorials across the Western Front has been here at Lakeenwa, so we have this place where we can actually go and stand before and and pay our respects. And since 2000, the towns have been uh sister. And so things that come along with that sistering are streets named after New Zealanders and New Zealand. The one of the main uh one of the main boulevards of the the town is called Rue Nouvelle-Zélande, literally New Zealand Road. Um you have a street which has been which was named after the first New Zealand Prime Minister to actually visit here, Rue Alain Clark. So not Helen Clark, but Alain, interestingly, uh writing her her name in the French way. Um the tourism office here is called Maison Waikato, uh Waikato House. At the train station, when you arrive, you know, many of the listeners will have been to France before. When you arrive at a French train station, you often have a you know a lacquered blue sign with the name of the town. Here in Le Kenwa, you've of course got that saying Le Kenwa, but there's a subtitle sign which says Tao Ne or Orki, the town of Oaks. Le Kenwa means the town of Oaks. And so to have that sign in Todeo, I think it's it must be one of the only places outside of New Zealand to have their town name actually written in Tedeo Mauru. And for most people, their their favourite place in Lakeenwa, which has been which has been named after New Zealanders, is the main square of the town, which is plus there's all blacks. Incredible. Yeah, yeah, all black square, that's right. Uh it's a uh it's really something very, very particular here. Um and the the way that it makes me feel when uh when I come here, and how how does the town really hold on to this? I think New Zealanders are very good at taking a back seat. We're very good at finding ourselves in other people's stories. Um I certainly know when I was growing up, if I would uh if I'd ever watch a TV show and there was a New Zealand accent, I mean that would be the most amazing thing for for me, right? If uh if you would ever be reading a book and there's a mention of New Zealand or or of a New Zealand town, that would be really, really special. And so to arrive here and see all of this done just for us, it's I tell you what, it's it's it's pretty mind-blowing. It's a pretty mind-blowing experience. The town really holds on to the story by commemorating the key dates of uh of the New Zealand war effort. Anzac Day is a massive, massive day here. Uh the flags which fly throughout the town will be changed to uh half of them the French Tricolor and then the other half the the New Zealand um Southern Cross. It's it's incredible. We last year we we had about 400 people for our Anzac parade. Um another key date is the 4th of November, of course, and we we regularly have hundreds of people for our commemorations on that day, too, the Liberation Day. So the town really has held on to this story and they really do honour New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

That's amazing, Jacob. Thanks for like really fleshing that out because that was one of my things I was wondering about is when you're in Lukenwa, what visually are you seeing that speaks of that connection to New Zealand and you know, and how much is that part of their story now? And it sounds like it's it's it's a very strong part of their story. I want to get into exploring this link with farming. My understanding is that around a hundred thousand Kiwi soldiers went over to World War I, which was about 10% of the population at the time, an enormous amount. How many of those guys were farmers?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, so it's a little bit hard to say because the the occupations at the time were a little bit different. Um men would call themselves different things to simply farmers. Um you know, you've got sharers, you've got uh lay simply laborers, uh, men would would put down their occupation as laborers. But a little bit of um background research that I did before this call um brought up that at least um 11,622 of those men considered themselves to be farmers at the beginning of the war when they enlisted. So we're talking about over 10% of those men that that enlisted to go to the other side of the world were from a farming perspective, uh from a farming background. And of course, that doesn't count the men who were the sons of farmers or the grandsons of farmers or grew up on a farm and then went and worked um in a in another profession before going to war. So I I I really do not think that it is overkill to say that these men were farmers at at their base. Um and of course that I mean that that leads to to many uh particular characteristics of our of our soldiers.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, and that was my next question is how do you think coming from that sort of farming background would have shaped them as soldiers?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Well, one of the first things that we can talk about is of course their their physical attributes. Um we we know that the the average New Zealand soldier uh was about two inches taller than the average English soldier, um, and that is largely because of the the diet and the the upbringing that they would have had. You know, many of these English soldiers grew up in places like Liverpool or Manchester or of course London where they're they're not getting a very good diet. They're um they're undernourished when when they're growing up, um, in this almost in like a Victorian era, right? Whereas New Zealanders on the on the other hand, they are often uh you know growing up on the farm on a steady diet of um you know fruit and vegetables, but also of of good New Zealand meat. And so they they develop into larger soldiers, and so naturally they're they're gonna be a little bit bigger uh and a little bit better. Um there's the other side of it, which is that these men are physically fit. Um, they have been out on the farm, they've been um you know out the back of out the back of their lots, and they have developed a general fitness. This also happens to to play a role in in the fact that they played a lot of rugby. Um and so these these men were fit, but in a really general uh fashion. They they weren't fit from uh going to the gym. Like, for example, many of the um the French troops were they they had this idea of fitness which was really based on gymnastics, and so they were quite lean and and fit um in a uh in quite a strong way, but the New Zealanders had this general um overall fitness, and so I think that was a that really comes from the the fact that they that they were in farming. Um the mental side though, on the you know, the kind of intangible side of these uh these soldiers, I think it's I think it's hard to hard to argue that they weren't more intuitive and more uh kind of just willing to get stuck in than many of the other soldiers. And of course, this is not uh unique to the New Zealand soldier. We we see this as well from uh notably our brothers in arms, the Australians um and the Canadians too, who who have this reputation for for being some of the best soldiers as as part of the uh the British um the British troops. But there is this there is one quote from the uh the British Field Marshal, which uh Douglas Haig, uh also known as the Butcher Hague, um he he said this about the New Zealanders. The New Zealand Division has once again proved itself equal to. Any task set before it. Now he was known as being a real taskmaster, a really, really hard uh man to please. And so to say something like that about a division in particular, I think really just shows the benefit of the New Zealanders. And I think so much of that comes out of uh the farming upbringing that these men would have had.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Quite tangent. How did how did that guy get his nickname the butcher, dare I ask?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah, I mean he got the it's because um it's because millions of men died uh in following his orders, effectively. Haig was the he was the field marshal of the the British troops which um which launched the attack at the Somme. Uh the British lost 30,000 in one day uh on that uh in that attack. He was in charge of the British uh troops, and of course when I say British I mean New Zealanders, Australians, Canadians, as well as the men from the British Isles. He was in charge of the attacks around Ypres, which is where Passhendale happens. Um and so he's kind of renowned, maybe with a bit of uh you know historical hindsight, of course. Um he's renowned for this idea that if we trade one man for for one man, the allies are going to be left with with more men standing. Um and so he he gets this this idea of just like sending another man over um over the top to to take out one of one of the Germans. So he gets that nickname of the uh of the butcher. Heavy stuff, man. It's uh yeah, it's really rough.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, hey, look, I know that you guys have uncovered some amazing personal stories there, you know, as part of the museum. Can you tell us a bit about some of the Kiwi farmers who fought at Le Kenwa?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah, absolutely. I've I've got three stories to tell you here. The first is about a soldier named Roy Cragg. Um Roy was born in Picton uh and he grew up in in the north of the South Island. And when he enlisted at just 20 years old, um he was actually an engineering student. Um, and so he was the kind of man who was very, very engaged in his um, well, in farming equipment, uh, but also in in just how things work. Um, uh a really a very curious uh kind of person. And we learned the story of Roy Craig because Roy's granddaughter, Carrie Ashcroft, came and visited us last year around Anzac Day. Now Roy was um you know in that curious mindset. He was a prolific writer. Uh he he kept a journal all the way through through the war. But something which is really striking about war uh about Roy's um diary is just how sparsely he has written. And this is an interesting point because he he writes, of course, we also we always have to read the uh the way that these soldiers wrote in the context of why they were writing a diary like this. And we know that Roy wrote his diary to be sent home to his family if he was to have died. And so there's very, very little talk of what he actually went through during this fighting. There is one particular uh quote that I'll read you from his diary, which is about as graphic as as he ever gets. He writes, had a very interesting journey through a deserted battlefield. It seemed like a deserted hell that was allowed to go cold. The ground was strewn thick with wreckage, and every inch of ground was cut about with shells. Bapum is just a mass of ruins. And so he wrote that after the New Zealanders took the town of Bapum. Um, and you can you can under you can actually hear in his writing how restrained he is. He doesn't share his own actual views, he he is very, very descriptive. Um and of course that that description um really comes back to that kind of engineering base that he had. So Roy survived the the war. He he made it back to New Zealand. Um, he set up in in Blenheim as a farmer there. Uh he was a beekeeper and orchardist, growing plums, peaches, and apples and running a successful apiary. But what was really touching to me was the the love and care that Kerry spoke about this man. Of course, we often think about the soldier who who returns home as this kind of broken shell of a of a person. But I think Roy is an example of someone who kind of picked up after the war and and carried on with it. I'll read you two more quotes that uh Carrie wrote about him. She said he was a keen observer of all things engineering and farming life, crop harvest and village life. The the other thing that I'll that I'll note about him is that when he returned home, um, he brought with him one of the British women that he met uh over this way, his wife Evelyn. And there's a fantastic quote here which is uh Kerry saying, Evelyn drove the tractor and did her share of farm work as well as raising their four children. And I wanted to add that as well, because of course it's not just the New Zealand men that were farming. Um you mentioned earlier 10% of the population. Well, of course, that means 20% of all men, but for men that were aged between 18 and 40, who were kind of the key workforce at that time of uh of history, it's 44% of all men. And so what is the what's the uptick on that? Well, of course, women start to start to farm as well. Women muck in, uh, I can imagine what it would have been like in the sharing shed uh back in back in those days. But yeah, so so women uh women play their role. So that's the story of Roy Craig.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

That's awesome. Thanks, thanks, Jacob. And I think you've got a couple more stories turbulent you.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah, that's right. So another one um uh which I wanted to share is uh is about um Jim McKenzie. Now we heard about Jim McKenzie because his uh grandson Alan Hughes came and visited us uh here at the museum. The key takeaway I want for Jim McKenzie's story is yes, he was a farmer, yes, he was a soldier, but he was so much more than that as well. Jim started farming um in Orkyho up in the Bay of Islands uh when he when he was when he was just a young man. Um and he was really a renaissance man. He played the fiddle, um, he regularly sung down at the uh the local um town hall, uh, and he was just known for being kind of this man about town who would do everything, you know, not just farming, uh, but also you know, mucking in in family life and in town life. He was very typical of uh one of the Scottish men who would have immigrated to that area, to Waipu and the Bay of Islands up there. Um a little fun story about Jim is that he was 40 years old when he enlisted, uh, which made him much older than many of the other soldiers. Um and he'd actually lost sight in one eye in a forestry accident when he was younger and was initially rejected for wartime service. And of course we'll we'll never know whether this is true, but Alan says that the family story goes that uh he had memorized the eye chart. And when he went and did his uh his sign-up, when he went and enlisted, um he he actually made it through because he'd remembered uh all of the all the letters on the i chart. So he came over here, he survived the war. Um and it's because of that, that of course Alan exists today, um, and so uh he he was able to come and visit us um just last year. Yes, so it's brilliant. It's classic. What a great classic New Zealand stuff, yeah, yeah. And I've got one more story. Um this one's a little bit a little bit more tragic. Um this is the story of Walter McIntyre. Walter was a uh was a farmer in the Manawatu town of uh Rangiwahia. Before I go on, I mean, of course Picton is a is still a is still a large um town in New Zealand, but these other places and so many of the places where the soldiers came from were really just these little hamlets all the way throughout the country. Um you don't get many people living actually in Auckland or in Wellington or Christchurch that that come over and fight here. Uh they're from all over the country, and of course, those small settlements are farming settlements. So the story of Walter McIntyre um is one of a 20-year-old who signed up to come over here in 1916, uh, who proved himself as a a useful uh soldier, as a as a powerful young man, and just days after his 22nd birthday, on the 4th of November, he fell here in Le Kenwa. He is buried in a place called uh Lukato. It's about uh it's about a 15-minute drive from here. And um he will he will be here alongside hundreds of other New Zealanders for for all of time. We learnt about this story because Kirsty Garner, the great niece of Walter McIntyre, came and visited us last year. Kirsty comes from the central Otago town of Lawrence. Um and it was only after her mother passed away um, you know, a couple of decades ago that Kirsty learnt the story of Walter McIntyre. Her great uncle had uh been a prolific writer, just like Roy Cragg, uh, and had sent all these letters home. And so at uh Kirsty Garner's um mother's passing, Kirsty inherited all these uh these stories, all of these uh these letters. She dove into uh into these stories and made a promise one night to go and stand before Walter's grave uh on one Anzac Day. Lawrence is uh tucked away in the in the country in the central Otago. Um Kirsty does not own a phone. She does not own a computer, and so for her to make the trip over here uh it was harder than for most people. She traveled to Christchurch and then to Auckland and then to Singapore, on to Paris, and then remarkably made her way to La Kenwa. And I had the real honor of meeting her at the La Kenwa station. And of course, when I walked up to her and I said, Kyoto, you must be Kirsty, in my New Zealand accent, she burst into tears. She uh she had this real moment of um of gratitude that on the other side of the world uh there is a place uh with New Zealanders to um to welcome uh people like her. We hopped in the car, we drove out to stand before Walter's grave. Um, and it's one of the most rewarding and uh well moving things that I've experienced on this job. Um she uh she wept for about 15 minutes um over his grave uh before singing awayata in three languages. In Todeo, in English, and also in French, she'd learnt uh and prepared this this song. Uh she then spent the the week with us here in in Le Kenwa um attending the the Anzac Day um commemorations. And so I tell the story because it it shows that even as we we move on generations, you know, a hundred years down the line, the story continues to connect with people and people make this pilgrimage to remember what what happened or all that time ago. Um a quote from Kirsty on the the farming side of things here was uh she wrote that he was brought up on his parents' farm and that was all he knew really. I think he would have regarded the army as a means of escape. This is to share that for so many of these men, the the war was a chance to to travel. You know, you we we think about the Jim McKenzie story where he was born in Scotland and then brought over here with his with his parents, they would have heard these stories of the old world time and time again, and yet they would never have gone more than you know five kilometres from the family farm. And so to be given the opportunity to come over here and sold this lie that it's going to be a really great experience, it's heartbreaking for me that they came over here and uh you know, men like Walter, um just 22 years old, fell and and are with us for forever here in France.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Thanks for sharing those stories, Jacob. Gosh, that that's incredibly moving. You must see a lot of that, right? Over the last three years, you must have seen people come through to Le Kenlois for the first time and make that you know that that family connection. Uh, you know, there must there must be quite a lot of those sort of moving stories that you witness.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Yeah, we we get we regularly get New Zealanders coming through, and many of them will have a personal connection. Um I would say we we have uh over 100 a year um of of those individual connections. Um at the moment we get about 1,500 New Zealanders a year coming to the museum, um, making up uh you know about 25 uh percent of our of our visitorship. So it's really, really important uh people making that uh that pilgrimage. I think something that has really really stayed with me is of those stories, two are about grandfathers and one is about a great uncle. When we have someone step through the doors and you know you ask them, Do you have a personal connection? and they say, Yeah, my grandfather was here, you know that they that man survived. They went back and um that line continued. But I feel this dread within me when someone shares, yeah, my great uncle was here, because I just know that so often that person is making the the trip to pay respects to a line which was snuffed out, um, to allow the lines that we we lead today um to to remain. It's uh it's something really touching, I I think.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

I was wondering, like Jacob, you mentioned that um the number of Kiwis that come through there every year, and I think you said that was about 25% of the visitors. Who are the other 75%? Uh you know, do f do French people come from around the country to this place?

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Uh yeah, so we we receive about two-thirds of our visitorship uh from from local French people. Uh and it is typically people from the local area, uh, including of course in in Le Kenwa. The French have an interesting relationship with with their remembrance. Um, of course, the the war happened here. Um, and so there's an even deeper tragedy in what happened uh for them here because their their cities were uh just decimated, right? And so it's uh I think I think it's quite nice for our French visitors to come somewhere that is hopeful um and uh and enjoyable. Um the the other kind of uh you know, between 7 and 10% of visitors uh coming are often coming from Belgium. Uh we're very close to to the Belgian border here. Uh and then there's a mix of, you know, English, uh, British, um Australians and Dutchies as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

This is your busiest week of the year, of course, uh being with Anzac Day approaching soon. What does that week look look like for you every year? Do you have dignitaries and things coming through?

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, so Anzac Day is indeed our most important and busiest weekend uh of the year. The way that it works here is that Lakinwa has always commemorated Anzac Day on the Sunday closest to the 25th. So we're quite lucky in many respects that uh that that means that you know people have the day off and uh are able to come and pay their respects here. It also means that people can attend other Anzac Day ceremonies, whether in uh whether on the front here, uh down in the Somme, up in Flanders, um, or perhaps even over in London or Gallipoli, right? And yet people can can still come here. And so the way that our Anzac Day events typically pan out is um on the Friday night we we always have a last post ceremony here. This year we've uh we've got a last post ceremony and then a kapahaka performance, um, which will be really, really special. Uh on the Saturday night we always hold an Anzac uh dinner, and that uh is a tradition that is has dated back over um 25 years now, that there is a dinner between local French people and uh the and the New Zealand visitors. Uh this year we we have over 150 people signed up to come to that dinner, um, including some 60 new New Zealanders. So uh that's a really important uh part of this this whole weekend. Um and then the the official commemorations take place on the Sunday morning, and so we get dignitaries from well, we'll have the New Zealand Ambassador to France here, uh, we have members of the New Zealand Armed Forces, uh, and then of course we get we get local dignitaries. Um so people from the uh not only the the town hall here but the um you know the kind of councils across the region here uh will will be present for that uh event.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

And I imagine that over the years you know, like the all blacks and different groups like that have probably come through too, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Yeah, that's right. I mean one of my favorite things uh about working here is when you meet a a local and they pull out their phone and they show you a picture of them at about eight years old with uh Jonah Lomo behind them. Uh those big mitts um on the on the little shoulders, you know. It's uh it's a really wonderful moment. The All Blacks um visited here in 2000, uh, and that was why the the main square of the town was renamed for the the Plus There's All Blacks and the All Blacks Square, uh, because they they actually came through here, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Jonah Lamu really captured people's attention. When I remember when I was 18 and traveling through the Middle East, uh whenever I told anyone I was a Kiwi, that was the first thing out of their mouth was Jonah Lamu. They they just absolutely love the guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah, and I uh people still talk about him to today, and so just you know, a real ambassador for for our country, but also for our great game. Um one of the you know the the museum is much bigger than simply a a place where we open the doors and get get people in to talk about the liberation of museum. We we go much beyond that. We almost play a um a consular role here, sharing New Zealand culture and and heritage. Um and you know, an example of that is once per year we'll we'll put on a screening of of an all blacks game. Um we'll we'll usually get about 50 locals who know nothing about rugby because we're in the north of France, not down in the south where they actually care about rugby. Um but these people uh are here and they're cheering for the All Blacks, they're not cheering for Les Bleus, you know. We do things like um we we did a T Kanger workshop where we taught people how to present themselves uh in Mauru, uh, which is something really, really special for locals. They want to be able to have that New Zealand connection like that. We um I I ran a school holiday program where I was teaching kids about the the beautiful and bizarre birds of New Zealand and just how important uh conservation is to New Zealanders. Um and so I I say all of this to share that, you know, clearly our primary function here is to commemorate the the soldiers and to remember the sacrifice here in Lakenwa, but we're we're going well beyond that sharing and sharing New Zealand culture and flying the New Zealand flag here.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Jacob, come to the end of this podcast soon, but you know, there'll be people listening to this who might be heading to Europe sometime in the next couple of years, you know, there'll be people that you know, young farmers maybe who are heading off on an OE soon. Why should they prioritize a visit to uh Tiara Fatah and and what sorts of things can they expect to see when they visit?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

I would say that if you're if you're looking to see just how much New Zealand means to people outside of Al Tara, coming to Lakinwa is second to none. There there are no there's nowhere else which which quite plays like like this place. Um and the museum is really just a beautiful memory or a beautiful um tribute to the New Zealand soldiers that came from so far away, 19,000 kilometres to to be here. The kind of things that you can expect to see here at um at Tiata Fata are of course, you know, moving experiences, immersive um rooms and and things created by Weta Workshop. Um but to be honest, the the selling point for New Zealanders of coming to La Kenwa is not necessarily the museum, it's the it's the vibe of this incredible town. Um if you like beer, Le Kenwa is a great place to come as well. The the beer is fantastic here. Um if you like uh like a good uh steak and uh you know some fries, um, it's hard to beat. Of course, some of uh some of our farmers down south will uh uh say. Otherwise, but over here you really do eat well. And in terms of getting here, it's surprisingly easy. We do feel like we're out in the middle, uh, kind of in the middle of nowhere. It is a farming town, actually. Um, but to get here, you're you're two hours from Paris, three hours from London, uh, an hour and a half from Brussels, and so uh, and it's all doable um on the trains, and so it really is uh worth your while and really easy to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

You mentioned there being great beer, is that because it's up on the border with Belgium and they have great beers? And do you get a bit of good chocolate up there too?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Uh yeah, yeah, it's not too bad, eh? The the reason why the beer is so so good here is because they um it was too bloody cold to be able to grow any grapes, and so they had to figure out a way to get their fix. Um, and so yeah, there's there's a beer culture here. We've got uh great uh great chocolate, but really, I mean the thing um the thing they do best here is I I think the fries, the the uh the hot chips are just to to kill for up here.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

The frit the frites, yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Hey, we could have done this whole thing in French.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Well, mate, it would have been school level for me, but yep. I um before before we wrap up, Jacob, any final thoughts on Le Kennoir, New Zealand farming, just anything in general that you want to leave us with?

SPEAKER_01 45:24

I think what this story really tells me and the the connection with New Zealand farming is just how versatile New Zealanders are. We're people that do the right thing at the right time, even if it's not uh the easy thing to do. I think the story of Lakinwo is such a New Zealand story in that way, because of course, how easy would it have been for the New Zealanders to just turn the guns on this town to Fledner and save themselves? But instead, they do the right thing, you know, they make that sacrifice. That's why we remember in such a fond manner today what happened here. There are dozens of other battles which uh could have been remembered like this, but for whatever way, we uh we we didn't we didn't go in that in that same direction. And so what I would say is I think these stories just make me think about the versatility of New Zealanders and um and that can do attitude.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Brilliant. And Jacob, I was just thinking, if if this podcast does happen to find its way into the ears of any locals over there, are there any words you'd like to share with them in their local tongue?

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Oh la la la la, okay, but se difficile me um but merci de polaki. I would just say thank you for for the welcome, the the way that the the people over here have welcomed not only myself but the um the other Kiwi working here. Um it's incredible. You know, the French um I kind of get my back up a little bit because the the French often get the piss kind of taken out of them for not being such good hosts. But I tell you what, these people would give the shit off their back for you. The welcome and just hospitality that I've received here over the last year and a half, uh it's second to none. It's um it's hard to to compare it with uh with anywhere else. They they are the most wonderful people over here.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Jacob, thank you so much for giving up your time and what is an incredibly busy week for you. It's now I think close to 11 pm your time. Um you're an absolute champion for doing this and just really educating us and sharing some of those rich stories. It's a very moving story, and and I'm very grateful to you for sharing it with us. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Ben. Thanks for having me on. Cheers. Hi, everybody. Thanks for listening to today's episode, and a special thanks to Jacob Siemens from the New Zealand Liberation Museum. If you ever find yourself in that part of the world, it sounds like a place well worth visiting. From all of us here, thank you for listening, and we will remember them.