Sam Whitelock on leadership, pressure and life after rugby | EP 94

After growing up on a Manawatū dairy farm, Sam Whitelock became one of the most decorated All Blacks of all time, including winning two Rugby World Cups and a bunch of Super Rugby titles. 

Now retired, he's back farming with his wife Hannah and their three children.

In this episode, Sam reflects on life after rugby, his return to farming, and the leadership lessons he's learned from some of the world's best teams and players. We discuss performing under pressure, building strong team culture, his decade as a Farmstrong ambassador, and what farmers can learn from elite sport.

Thanks to Farmstrong for teaming up with us to create this podcast. 

Useful links

Farmstrong

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

There are a few Kiwis who understand high performance teams and handling pressure, like Sam Whitelock. After growing up on the family farm in Manua 2, Sam went on to become one of the most decorated All Blacks of all time, winning two World Cups, numerous super rugby titles, and leading some of the game's greatest teams. Now retired from footy, Sam's back on the land and has recently shifted from sheep and beef to dairying with his wife Hannah and their three children. In this episode, Sam reflects on his transition from rugby to farming, a decade as Farm Strong's ambassador, and what he's learned about leadership and pressure, having played at the highest levels for so long. It's a real honor to have Sam on the podcast with us, and I hope you enjoy hearing from the legend himself. Sam Whitelock, welcome to the Federated Farmers Podcast. It's a real privilege to have you here with us. A lot of people will know that you've retired from professional footy, but they might not know what you're up to right now. Bring us up to speed. What does life look like for you these days?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on. It's always pretty cool to get to have a bit of a yarn with uh with people and um update everyone with what's been going on. Uh for myself, yeah, it's been a bit of a blur since I finished playing professionally. Um, left New Zealand, went to France, played with my younger brother over there uh for one season, which was an amazing experience living in a different part of the world, uh speaking a new language, uh new food. Um obviously they love their cheeses and famages and things like that over there. So it was quite a cool thing uh for a country kid to get over there and experience it. Uh but after finishing playing there, uh came back to our farm in Hawke's Bay and were there for two years, but we've actually just moved uh back to the Manor 2 to the family farm and been here officially for about three weeks. So running around trying to work out what I'm meant to be thinking about and doing, um, going from sheep and beef back to dairy, so uh trusting a few of those things that we used to do when I was younger, and um yeah, it's uh it's been an awesome challenge, but enjoying it so far.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

So are you back on the farm that you grew up on?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yep. Yeah, so going into some paddocks, you straight away go back to those uh childhood memories of you know, we used to catch possums in the air or go catch trout down the river and those things. And it's really nice seeing um our kids and my nieces and nephews, which are down the road, um, reliving some of those things we got to got to do, and it's pretty cool um being able to share those same experiences with them, you know, 30 odd years later.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Sam, can you tell us a bit about the farm setup?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, so we're down the end of the road. Um, so we've got uh our our shed, we've got an 80 battle rotary milking um 1,500 cows, and my brother's two K's down the road, and he he's doing the same. So uh it's pretty cool. Um where George is, he's I think fifth generation, and where we are parts of the farm with third generation, so it's a very family um feel to it. And uh Nana's made him names Craw, so there's Craw Road just at just not too far from here, and that family history is something that um kind of was the deciding factor for us to leave Hawke's Bay and come back to the Man or two. Um it was a very hard decision. Uh we're loving Hawke's Bay, the people, the farming, the weather, etc. But yeah, it was probably the the one thing that um trumped the rest and made us uh come back with that decision.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

So are you actually putting cups on or have you got staff?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, no, we've got staff here. Um but no, definitely hands-on as much as I can be uh the last uh couple of months has just been setting up accounts, as anyone in the the dairy farming world knows, there's a lot of uh people that you've got to use and trust. So setting up accounts um has been my little thing I've been doing and finally getting to a stage now I can get out a bit more and uh get a bit more mud on my hands.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

What was that transition like for you going from professional sport back to farming, Sam? Was it smooth or did you have any kind of period there where you wondered if you'd made the right decision?

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, no, I absolutely love my time as a rugby player. Um, love the people, the challenges. Um, we got to travel the world, we got to get to know some people from all walks of life, different upbringings. And the cool thing is we got to challenge ourselves uh in a high pressure environment. And sometimes we came out on top, sometimes we didn't. And you know, there's some games we would have loved to have won, but you can't change that now. It's all history. And for me, going from that environment where some days you go to work with close to 70 people by the time you have 35 players, 10 or 20 management, um, commercial staff, sponsorship, the list goes on and on and on. Um, to then being on a farm, some days there's yourself and maybe one other. Um, some weekends it might be just you. So that was probably the thing that uh took a little bit of adjusting to, but uh I was 35 when I finished, so I I definitely um was ready to take on that new that new chapter and spend a bit more time with my lovely wife and three kids.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Didn't want to do a mut an on him and just never give up, just push through to 40.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

No, he's he's definitely making us look very, very bad. Um was he 44 still playing and he's playing some very good rugby too? It's not like he's uh coming off the bench for 10 seconds here and there. He's um playing really well and was playing in the French competition, which I think's a really good competition at the moment, and um they're in their finals at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

What's the best part of being back on the land for you, Sam?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

I think it's some of those childhood memories. Um myself, I always wanted to be outside. Um, my primary school teachers probably uh definitely could agree with that. I wasn't probably the best in the classroom, um, but just love being outside and love working with animals and um having the ability to um work out what I you know what I enjoyed with was was pretty lucky because I got to do it um when I was younger and sport took off and probably held me away from the farm a little bit. And when playing rugby professionally, it is pretty selfish and it is uh very time consuming. So didn't get uh too much opportunities to kind of dig my teeth into something when I was down south, but had a lot of friends that were farming and loved spending time with them out there, just chewing the fat around what they're doing, and it didn't matter what type of farming, whether it was sheep and beef, dairy, um, horticulture, cropping, etc. So uh pretty passionate around all types of farming.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

So when you were playing, was the plan always in your head that I'm I'm gonna go farming when this is over?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yep. Um I think early on, same as anyone that's you know, early 20s, you're still kind of working out what you want to do. And for me, rugby took off more than I ever thought it would. And they gave me some some awesome opportunities of time and time to think around what did I want to do once I finished. Um so for me, yeah, it was always probably definitely up there. I found um an old goals thing, you know, when you're little at school, you know, when you're five and six, they say what do you want to be when you grow up? And apparently mine was wanted to be a rugby player or fireman. So um yeah, I've done the the rugby thing now. I'm not sure if we'll be a fireman, but farming was definitely another one there that was on that sheet. So pretty cool to say that from a little age till now I definitely wanted to come back to the farm, and that's something that now that we've done it's uh yeah, pretty cool to look back and think of those memories.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Is there anything you miss from footy your footy days or anything you don't miss?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Oh, there's there's always times that um you know being a regga player is quite challenging. Uh I think the the one thing that uh I found hard and I know a lot of the guys find it hard too when you have a a family and you know someone's sick or it's a birthday and you've got to walk out that door, whether it's to training, whether you've got to play a game overseas and you're wait for three, five, ten weeks when it's really um pressure times, that can be really challenging because you've got to actually just say, Look, I'm sorry, I've got to walk out the door. And um that takes you know, oh sorry, it builds a lot of pressure onto your family. And I think Hannah, my wife, she's done amazing with the kids because at times she is a single parent, and um it's cool now that I can say to her every now and again, look, I'll pick up the kids from school, you go for a walk, or you know, get out of the house and um go prioritize herself rather than she's always had to, you know, be mum and dad all in one.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Hey, and Sam, obviously, like you're on this podcast um primarily in your capacity as Armstrong Ambassador. What's that been like for you? Because you've been doing that nearly a decade, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, uh, we just ticked over uh 10 years, I think, last week. So uh pretty cool to be a part of that. And um that's something that I've really enjoyed. Uh 10 years has flown by, which uh, you know, when someone first said it, I I kind of had to go back and count in my head. But had some amazing experiences, just like rugby, whether it's someone come up to you after a good game and say you had an awesome game or um in the farm strong capacity, someone come up to you and say, Hey, look, you're making a massive difference. You know, I was struggling in this area, and you know, you've given me a little project to walk towards, and it's definitely helping. So um some of those little feedbacks you get, whether you're at the field days or walking down the street in town, um, is pretty humbling. And I think the ones that are probably the most special is when people come and shake your hand. They don't want to talk, they just want to say thank you, and they carry on walking, which is um which is pretty, pretty cool and very humbling, not only for myself, but all the Farm Strong team.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yeah, that's very cool. Hey, now you have been part of some incredible teams. I think you're one of the few people who's won two Rugby World Cups, um, multiple super rugby titles. What are the most important things you've seen in those teams that have set themselves up to perform at the highest level consistently?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, those those teams are um yeah, pretty amazing when you actually put look at them on paper and you start comparing um, you know, the starting 15, 23, who was in the squad and what they went out and achieved. It's something that only over the last couple of years since I've retired, it's probably starting to sink in a bit more. Um but I think if you look at all those teams, the drive was there from the team, but also the individual. And that was the tone was set from the leaders, the senior players, what was expected. And I think that's probably the easiest way around leadership. And I get asked that question quite a bit, you know, like how do you define it? What is it, and especially with culture, but I think when the leaders and the senior players are leading by example, so they're doing everything they can to get better themselves individually, and it helps the team, everything else falls into place because as a junior player in the squad, um, no matter what role you're going to take, you can see what they're doing, and it's really co uh easy to copy what they're doing. Um, so I think that's probably the key thing I've learned out of those teams. You know, whether you are that experienced player or the the new one, it's just going out there and um putting your best foot forward and setting the standard, and all of a sudden it's easy for people to see it and they'll end up following if you're doing a good job.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

From us, you know, average Joes on the outside looking in at in at these different teams, the all blacks and and um super rugby teams and so on, it can be hard for us to know who's having the most influence on the side, whether it's the coaches uh or the captain, um, or whether it just comes down to how the players are feeling on the day. How important are the the actual leaders, the captains?

SPEAKER_00 12:22

It's everyone. Um everyone has a massive impact. And that was something towards the latter part of my career. I spent a bit of time trying to work out how to have maximum impact with the least amount of words or least amount of actions. And timing is is a big one. You know, you can give the best message ever, but if it's done at the wrong time, it doesn't matter. So I I've definitely got some experiences myself when you walk out of, you know, after a game or after a thing, you go, okay, I did not get that right. But you've got to have those moments to understand, okay, this didn't work. Why didn't it work? Was it the message? Was it the timing? Was it the tone? Was it the intent? And you go through it all and then, oh, okay, maybe I'll try this next time. But I think with that, people sometimes get so obsessed around the messaging and talking more. If you go out there and know your job, that is leadership on its own. So I think sometimes we kind of try and make it too fancy and and all these things, and I want to, you know, almost have a performance, but sometimes it's just speaking um clear and direct, and that normally hits the nail on the head, especially if you're nailing your job, nailing your role.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yeah, because I can imagine there's this pressure to give sort of a brave heart speech, right? Where buddy, everyone's rattling in the changing rooms and getting fired up. But from what we can see from the outside, some of the most amazing um leadership we've seen is just where the captain just gives it all for 80 minutes and just keeps going, and we're always we're always pretty blown away by that. Is that the same when you're a player, if your captain's playing like that?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah, and I think every team's different, um, and it's different because the the personnel are different every year, every game, every test match, etc. But it's really easy to see someone's actions and you know get asked all the time, you know, what was this player like? What was he like as a captain? And it kind of took me a while to work out um with Richie as as all black captain, and he had an amazing career as captain, but he had a hundred and whatever goes at it. So the captain he was at the start versus the end, completely different. Um, yeah, there were some things there that he were consistent all the way through. Um, but it wasn't until later on I kind of worked out a couple of little tricks he had. So in front of everyone to go to the physio um injury clinic on the Sunday where you'd have to check in and say, you know, oh my shoulders a bit sore or my knee, whatever. He'd just walk in and be like, Yep, all good, thumbs up. And you know, he was playing 80 minutes every week, he was, you know, making the most tackles, people were targeting him, etc. And I was like, how's this guy not getting sore or anything? But what I didn't realise is that was for the players, because he knew if he went in there and said, Oh, my short shoulder's sore, my knee and my hip and my back and everything else, people go, Oh, okay, I'm allowed to be sore. But what he was actually doing is he was showing that to the players, but then he would loop back around later and then he'd go the physical, oh my shoulder's no good and my my foot and I'm gassed and I'm crooked or whatever. But it was just he had to do that, especially in big um big tournaments, uh heaps of travel, heaps of those things that just needed to show that whole mindset of right, this is what we're gonna do, this is how we're gonna do it, and all of a sudden it spread through the group, and you know, that was one of his strengths as as a leader.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Can you give us I mean I'd love to tap into this, and people would love to hear more of those kind of examples of um you mentioned Richie, but who are some of the other leaders who had a real influence on you and what sorts of things did they do?

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yep, um had so many people that you know improved me as a person as a player, and sometimes it was just a simple conversation. And um, Kevin Me Lama and I I've said this to heaps of people, uh, his timing was unbelievable, and he'd you know settle up next to you and just be like, Hey, how you going, Sam? And you give the normal answer, yeah, no, I'm all good. And then he'd ask exactly the same question again and just wait. And for me, that was a really nice um way to kind of get to know someone better because for us as people, as rugby players, we're pretty quick to throw back, yeah nah, sweet, all good to go. But when you actually ask that question again and leave space for someone to answer, it's normally a different answer. Um, so someone like Kibby was awesome at that. But I think if you go through all the all like captains I played with and alongside, they've got all their own style. And some guys were really good at um communicating with everyone. So they go into the room and they go around and say hello to everyone. Other people would lead more on the field than off the field. Um, some people, myself, and this is what I like to get better at, is leave space for others to lead and speak, especially off the field. Um because you can't just be hammered down the whole time going, right, I'm gonna get better. I want to, you know, excel in so many areas. You've got to actually leave space to relax and enjoy, you know, the place you're traveling to, or the hotel you're in, or someone's birthday. So you you've got to have that ability to switch on and switch off. And probably early in my career, I probably didn't have that, but that's something that uh hopefully I got better at as I went on.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

You mentioned that example of um Kevin Mialamu. So was that when you were going through a particularly tough time uh as an all black?

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Uh nothing too major, but it was just he could pick up body language or something. Like I probably hadn't trained as well as I wanted to, and I was a little bit frustrated. Um, gave me that space, and then all of a sudden you kind of say what's actually on your mind. Um, there's all those little catch-cries or things around a problem shared as a problem halved, and then all of a sudden you go, okay, right, here's a little solution going forward. Um it's things you're probably thinking about anyway, but as soon as you verbalize them, sometimes it takes a different, um, different form. And I know with the stuff with Farmstrong we're doing, a lot of people come in and go, Oh, my dog, I tell it all my problems, and the best thing is it doesn't try to fix them, it just listens. And um, I can see how some people really uh just get to you know talk to someone or something, and that definitely helps.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah, I had we had Bex Green on the podcast last year. She's our North Canterbury president, and she she was talking in the in the podcast about it when she went through a particularly tough time with her mental health. And the turning point was when a friend of hers did the same actually as that, um, kind of pressed a bit harder. Knew Bex wasn't going through a good time, but and Bex's main message to farmers was, you know, make sure you ask, ask the bloke over the fence and actually let him answer, give him some space, similar to what you've just said then. Have you, you know, coming back into farming and having staff, do you apply some of that stuff to running a team?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yep, so uh for us in Hawke's Bay, we had one or two staff members, so not a massive team. Um, here we've got a few more. So having that balance of when to speak, when to ask questions, when to listen, uh is something that we're all always trying to work on. And um, you know, you're not always going to get it right, but when you do, it's uh definitely a nice feeling, and it's something that that helps you to reinforce what you're you're trying to do. The way I look at it in a real simple way is are my actions or words helping or hindering? And you know, everyone's different. For me as a player, I liked from players, teammates, coaches. I wanted just to know what was going on, so I wanted it pretty direct. I didn't want too many words to fluff it up. I just write, is this good enough or not? Yes or no kind of um messaging. And I like to give those messages, but we all know everyone's different. Um, some people don't like that direct style, so you've got to work out right how to give that information, and there's heaps of different ways of doing it, and some come more natural naturally to people, and others maybe not. Um, so yeah, it's just working out what works for you, but then also what works for the person you're communicating with.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah, it makes good sense. Hey Sam, I'd love to talk a little bit about pressure. Um, because as you know, farmers find themselves under pressure pretty regularly. In your toughest times farming now, seriously, how does that pressure compare to running out for a World Cup final or a test match at Twickers or something? Is he are there any similarities or are they just on completely different levels?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I think for myself, because I've spent so long chasing a rugby ball around my farming career, I'm still so young, it's a bit of a baby in it, and to a degree. Uh, but in saying that everyone feels and deals with pressure in different ways. Um, whether it's the weather, and farmers love the weather, whether it's too hot, too dry, too cold, too windy, not windy enough, etc. But I think the difference with rugby and farming is rugby, you're judged on 80 plus minutes a week, and you can have a terrible week. So training just does not go the way it's meant to as a team. Um, people are late. You know, you can have multiple things that don't work well, but you go out there on a on game day on Saturday and you nail it and you put 80 plus minutes together and you have a really successful week, and we're judged on that. But sometimes the score. Doesn't reflect where you are as a team or as individuals. And farming's a little bit the same. So whether you're, you know, how many kgs you uh do you have going out the gate, whether you're a you know sheep and beef, or how many um you know oranges if you're in citrus farming are you sending to the supermarket to be sold, you know, how many um milk solids, etc. So sometimes the numbers actually hide everything else, uh, but then there's the opposite too, where you can have the best week ever and just don't perform well enough on game day and get it done. So what I'm trying to say is what it looks like for everyone is different, and what it looks like throughout the week is different. Um in the rugby world, a coach a coach pretty much gets to Thursday afternoon, they're starting to look forward to the the next week, the next um team, and then it's the captains taking over, etc. So yeah, the coach is they're um going to be judged on the performance and the score, but the reality is their work's done Thursday night. Yeah, there's a few little things they can have an influence on, but the majority of their work's done, then it's up to up to the players to go out there and perform and put all those things they've worked hard at all week into into practice. And farming's a little bit the same, but it's working out when you can actually step away from it, take a moment, take a break. And you know, every every farm has different challenges, whether it's the weather, whether it's the time of year. Um, so it's knowing, okay, this is the time to take a break because hey, we're carving and we're carving a whole lot of cows over 12 weeks, and she's going to be pretty full on, then straight into mating. So it's knowing when to push and when to pull back.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah, because I read that early on, uh, at least in your rugby career, you I think you used to sort of have to get away from rugby a bit and go back to the farm to clear your head. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yep. Uh for me, yeah, I have a bit of a busy mind, we'll say, um, and just sitting uh on the beach is probably not my favourite thing to do. Uh my wife always says, Oh, can't we just sit here? So I'll normally take a shovel down, a bit of a big sandcastle for the kids and get a big sweat on and then jump in the ocean. It's like that's my way to relax. But rugby was the same. I had to have something going on. So studied at Lincoln Uni um early on in my career, and that kept me out of trouble because I was sometimes leaving training, going straight to lectures, studying, etc., and then exams. But the other thing I found was actually just getting out of the city, and cell phones are great, but at the same time, they're terrible because you can't get away from them. People ring you, yeah, you put it on sign and all those things, but they always find a way to get a hold of you. So going hunting or heading into the hills was just a nice way to get out of cell phone reception, take a moment to do something completely different, and you know, hunting was the thing that I loved doing. Some of the other guys would do it differently. They'd go fishing or they'd go um volunteer somewhere else, or you know, some of them um use the escape way of you know on the you know gaming side of it, but that was never me. I didn't want to go down that road. Um, but I can see why some of the guys are quite into it because it's just a way to get away from the pressure of being a professional athlete.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

And as a farmer now, what do you do to clear your head? Do you still hunt?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, uh a little bit. Uh where we were in Hawke's Bay, there was deer outside the um the lounge window, so it was always nice to look out there and see what was going on. Um, but yeah, they all had pet names pretty much, so they were off limits. Uh but for a for me now, um the thing that takes up most of my time as kids, and really cool to take them to dance or take them to rugby training. I've kind of got roped in a little bit there, but I'm just trying to stay away to a point. Uh, but also doing a little bit of coaching in Japan, so head up there a little bit per year, and it's really nice to still be involved within a team setting and step back into that area where um just trust my my gut and my eye of what I can see, and I'm definitely find when I do that uh my farming um is better, you know, leading into it and better leading out because I'm just not thinking about the one thing the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

And do you still are you still keeping in good shape, keeping fit?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Um yes and no. Uh in Hawke's Bay had a uh the girls will hate me saying this, but um had an indoor netball team that I used to play in, and um it was awesome, exactly what we're just talking around. So we'll go down uh into Napier, play um with my wife's mates, indoor netball would be the only guy playing.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Um They must have been gutted when you showed up.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah, yeah, they were a little bit upset, uh, you know, passing the ball too hard and then getting a sore finger or a thumb because I've uh passed it too hard. But um really enjoyed it because it was just that social element. Everyone came together from different walks of life and it was all there to get away from you know what's been happening at home or on the farm and get a bit of a sweat up. Um so I'm actually searching for my next um indoor netball team down here in the Manor 2, but I've got to chase up a couple of my old basketball mates and I'm sure we'll get a summer league going somewhere, but it's just not a priority quite at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Hey Sam, just sticking with that idea of with that theme of pressure. When you were in teams under real pressure to get a win or whatever, what did your leaders do to help the team through that to get in a good, you know, not to get too much in their heads and so on?

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Keep things real simple. And I I look at back at the best leaders, the first thing they would always do is play well themselves. And it doesn't matter what role they had, whether they were the outside back or the tight head prop, if they're nailing their role, then it's easy for them to help in other areas. And that was something that I always always looked at and said, right, okay, this is what the great leaders I've seen do. So that's just what I tried to do as well. And um, when the team's under pressure, if you're nailing your role, it allows someone else to nail theirs. And I think the higher you go up in in teams, so I actually think it gets easier because you just have to worry about yourself. Yes, your roles within it are more challenging, but you're not worrying about is the hooker going to throw the ball where it needs to be, is the that person gonna get to that ruck? You don't need to worry about that because they're there for a reason and they're you know the best players in their positions in the country. So you don't need to worry about it, it's just actually worrying about yourself. Okay, where do I need to go? What do I need to do? And within that it comes really easy. Where when you go out there and you're trying to make sure he gets to that ruck and he's gotta get lifted in the kickoff, and then all of a sudden you drop the ball because you're worried about everything else. And uh I reckon that's probably the biggest thing I learned is that you worry about yourself, and then when you're nailing that, it's easier to help out.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah, that's a really good message. I reckon most of us listening to that can take something out of that. Um, what did you learn about culture, about how to build and maintain really strong culture?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yep, culture is one of those words that's thrown out there at the moment, whether it's culture, environment, standards. But I I just always like asking people that ask me that question straight back, well, what is it? How do you define it? And the best answer I had come back is the way things are done around here. And for me, that's just an awesome way to put it, and it just sums up no matter where you are, whether you're the owner, the the junior, etc., you go, okay, what is expected around here? Okay, if I walk past the gate that's swinging in the wind, do I shut it or do I leave it there? If I'm a rugby player, do I pick up the rubbish that someone's left on the field that's fallen out of a pocket? If you do those things, that's the culture. If you walk past them, that is the culture. For me, really easy to uh keep the culture where it is is when the senior players or the senior farmers, etc., are doing that because it's just what expected. Where there's nothing worse than someone says, hey, go out there and do this, but they're not doing it themselves. So for myself, I think that's the the easiest way and to for me to sum it up. Um, a good culture, good environment, standards um is how I how I look at it.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

When the pressure is really on in a team or on a farm or wherever you are, obviously that culture gets tested, right? The way things are done can start to fall apart a bit. How do you hold it together and and hold that line if you're in a leadership position?

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Just do your job. It's uh it's actually really simple, and I think that's where people potentially are looking for a silver bullet in this really in-depth equation that if we do this and do this. For me, under pressure, it's got to be simple. So uh for myself, I would always try and mentally reset if I was under pressure and then just look at what is my next task. It doesn't matter what's happened before, what do I need to do right now? And rugby's awesome because you've got that 80 minutes, you deal with that then and there. Yeah, there's things you've got to go work on, but you can't stop the game and go, oh, I need 20 seconds here because I dropped the ball, I just need a moment. It's the ball's drop, you've either got to dive on it to stop them getting a free opportunity for an attack. Um, or the next one's a set piece. And for me, being a tight forward was easy because either you're catching the kickoff or chasing it, or you're in the scrum or in the line out. Being an outside back, I would have hated it because sometimes you don't see the ball for 10 minutes and you've got all that time to think about what's happened and you know, is that going to cost us or not? But for being a tight forward, it uh was a nice little thing. There's always something to do. A bit like farming really.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

You often hear these similarities made between certain um professions or whatever and farming in terms of the pressure that gets put on them. Um farmers, you know, are under quite a lot of scrutiny these days. And you, as a top sportsman, would have come under a lot of scrutiny as well. How do you deal with that as a sports person? How do you shut out what everybody out there's saying on social media and in the in the media and so on? Because I know farmers that can affect them as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, um, I've got a few Greys here. Uh, so this is probably going back a wee while. Uh, when I first was lucky enough to be in the All Blacks um 2010, just before World Cup, uh, got into World Cup and the senior players stood up there and held the newspaper and said, Boys, don't read it and throw it on the ground. And then everyone kind of looked around like, oh, it's a bit of a weird thing. And then he picked it up and said, if you need to read it, read one page and throw it down. And then he said, and if you'd have to read it, maybe back page and another one. But what they were getting across is just don't go there. And if you have to, just have a quick little look, don't get obsessed with reading it from start to the end and knowing what everyone's opinion is of who's playing well, who's not, etc. And it's the same with social media. You can go on social media, you can um, you know, do that, and it's a great way to communicate. And I know this how I use it with friends, family, etc., but I don't want to have it consume my life. And if I'm on it for two hours a day because I'm worried about the comment that someone said from around the world all of a sudden, it it's not gonna help you out. And for me, I always go back to the the newspaper. So if you're gonna do it, look at the pictures, maybe read the first caption, um, but don't read it from start to finish because there's gonna be something in there that you won't be happy with. And we used to talk about all the time as players, there's only three people you need to need to be impressed with your performance, and that was the three selectors. Um, the whole country or the whole world might think you're not a very good player, but if those three selectors are selecting you, you're obviously doing what they need you to do, and you can trust yourself in that sense. Um, and the other one is whose opinions do you really care about? And I'm not saying that in a negative way, because we have some amazing friends um and fans here in New Zealand that you've got to listen to, but there's a couple of people you you want their opinions, and I'm sure they'll give you uh an honest one when you need one, but then they'll give you a nice gentle one when you need it too.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Hey Sam, we'll wrap up pretty soon, but I want to talk a little bit about well-being, because obviously you work a lot in that space. When it comes to well-being, how important is the environment that uh leaders create for their team or you know for their staff? Um, versus you know, how much responsibility is that for the on the individual to take care of their own well-being?

SPEAKER_00 35:07

I think it's both. Um, I think it's both because I don't know what you're thinking. Yeah, there's some clues and body language is is always a good one, but people are good at hiding what they're thinking. So yeah, there's got to be an opportunity for space there, um, timing um from coaches, employers, senior players, etc. But then there's also as the individual um a responsibility to go, right? I know I need more than seven hours sleep to, you know, busy time of the year. Okay, it's getting into bed early, uh, making sure you're hydrated. Some of those individual things only you can nail. Um, yeah, you can have a a couple of ways of trying to trigger yourself to be better at those things. So whether it's you get in the truck and on the on the steering wheel, so have you got your drink bottle? Oh, no, I don't, right, go get it, etc. So there's ways, little things you can do to create habits that are more beneficial. But to answer your question, I think it's definitely got to be both because you don't want to leave it up to just one person to do it. I think if we all work at it, we're gonna be way better in that space.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

That's awesome, Sam. Hey mate, I've um I just want to hit you with a bit of a quick fire round. This can be anything you like. Any advice you want to give to farmers at all. Um, what's one thing that you think farmers out there should start doing? One thing they should stop doing, and one thing they should keep doing.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Ooh, I'll probably um try and answer all three in one. I I think the days of going to the local pub are probably not as common as they used to be. And people used to go there, talk about the rugby, talk about farming, what the latest thing they're doing, whether it's a discussion group, whether who's playing well or not. So I think creating opportunities to ask questions and putting yourself in that situation to ask questions of the older generation, the younger generation, because there's something to be learned from everyone. So for some people it's keep doing what you're doing. For other people, it's start doing that more. And other people, it's probably being a little bit more open and not being so closed off to new ideas and things like that. But yet again, I do understand some people are great on a computer. Um, some people like getting information through podcasts where I know my father does not like podcasts, he wouldn't know where to get one and how to start it. But um I'm sure he would actually really enjoy a few of them if he if he did manage to work out how to get on there and listen to a couple. So hopefully that's nailed just stop, start, and keep doing.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Sam mate, thank you so much for your time. It's a real privilege to have you on. Um, and you know, you said people come up and thank you. Uh, you know, I like to say thank you too for all that you're doing um for Farm Strong. And uh, hey, it'll be awesome to see how you how you go on the dairy farm down there in Mona or two. And I hope you have a great season.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

No, thank you very much. And I do encourage everyone listening to jump onto the Farm Strong website. Real easy, farmstrong.co.nz. There's some awesome um things there, and you can follow your nose, whatever you want to chase. You can just follow your nose through, and there's some awesome resources there. And the best thing is that all stories from farmers for farmers, so it's uh a pretty cool way to eat up some time if you want.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Good on you, Sam. Thanks, mate.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. If you've enjoyed it and you'd like to hear more, subscribe to the Federated Farmers Podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts so that you get notified when our new episodes drop. And if you have any feedback or podcast suggestions, we'd love to hear from you. Please drop us a line, podcast at fedfarm.org.nz. That's podcast at fedfarm.org.nz. Catch you next time.