How technology is changing farm succession | EP 97

Technology is playing an increasingly important role in farm succession, helping families share knowledge, make better decisions and bring the next generation into the business sooner.

Someone seeing that firsthand is Caitlin Barnett, Gallagher's Regional Lead for eShepherd across Australasia, who works with farmers adopting virtual fencing and other on-farm technologies.

In this episode, Caitlin discusses how technology is changing the way farming knowledge is passed between generations, who's embracing it, whether it can ever replace decades of experience, and the parts of farming that simply can't be digitised.

She also takes on our quickfire questions, sharing one thing farmers should stop doing, keep doing and start doing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hi everybody, welcome back to the Federated Farmers Podcast. This is Ben Chapman Smith. Well, succession isn't just about handing over the farm. It's also about passing on the knowledge, experience, and confidence to run it well. And technology's playing a bigger role in that than ever before, helping farming families share information, make better decisions, and bring the next generation into the business earlier. Joining me today is Caitlin Barnett, who's Galahis regional lead for eShepherd across Australasia. And she's working with farmers adopting virtual fencing and other technologies here in New Zealand and Australia, giving her a unique perspective on how technology is changing farm management and what that could mean for succession. Let's get into this conversation with Caitlin about that topic. Caitlin, thank you so much for joining us on the Federated Farmers Podcast. I really appreciate your time. Tell us a bit about your background. Where did you grow up and how did you get into ag technology?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, thanks, Ben. So I'm from a farming background. I guess in my earlier years, I spent a time in the King Country. That's where I grew up. In Ohura, which is pretty deep, pretty remote King Country, on a stud beef and sheep property, sort of early high school years. We shifted over to Southern Hawke's Bay. And mum and dad are still on that side of the country now. They're in the Tanador district and just have their stud now. So they've got an Angus Kettle stud. So always, you know, agriculture's been a big part of my life. I suppose agriculture sort of raised me really. And I went to Massey and studied animal science down there. And technology wasn't really on my radar, like when I left university. It was a little while ago, probably longer ago than I would care to admit. But technology wasn't huge just then, right? There was a lot of things happening. Most people had smartphones, but it definitely wasn't at the same level of sort of a tech evolution that we're seeing these days. So it's just been a natural career evolution for me, like just some of my roles between the livestock industry, moving into sort of more of a tech space, really just natural progression, I think, to get into a space where I think can be really transformative for farming. And that's what I'm really passionate about, is actually seeing really good outcomes for farmers, then being able to make massive change on their property just by implementing some simple tools. That's really what I'm passionate about.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

You've mentioned to me that you come from a pretty traditional kind of farming background. Um, and your folks are pretty old school traditional farmers. Have you managed to convert them to any fancy new tech? What are they, what are they, what are they thinking about what you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Look, I'm always working on them. I'm always working on them. Um yeah, they are, I would say they are traditional, and that's okay. Like that's how they love farming, right? That's how they enjoy their farming. Dad took over the the stud from his parents, so it's been a family business. Um, I used to work for Bidder, so that's an online auction platform for livestock, and that's something that I definitely converted them to. Uh they were pretty skeptical, as were a lot of people when Bidder first launched. Uh, but now, you know, they use it for their own sale, they use it to check in on the sal yard markets, they use it to watch other bull sales during the selling season. So that is something that they've really um just picked up and sort of it's become ingrained in their everyday life, right? As it has with many people. Um and that was probably, you know, my role of Bidder, the first uh experience for me where I saw a tool or a platform that could really change the way people were doing their business and just make their everyday life a lot easier, um, make certain things more accessible. So that was a big part of my, you know, moving into that acting space and that passion for for technology and seeing how it can work for farmers.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I don't actually know too much about Bidder. I know it's a fairly uh new company. I think it was 2019 or something it launched, right? Um does it eliminate the need for a stock agent?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

No, not at all. Um that was probably the first, like I think we met a little bit of hostility when when Bidder first launched, just because people felt like we were trying to eliminate the need for a livestock agent, but absolutely not. Um, you know, those relationships, that sort of innate experience, that practical experience that those agents still hold is still really important. Um, I think sal yards are still really important as well. They really set the market for the whole industry um on a weekly basis. So that's that's a big part of um of how bitter can work in. But it really just digitizes, you know, something that's already always been quite traditional. So it allows people to access markets remotely, it allows people to buy online if they can't make it to a sale. Like it's really just uh a great insurance policy for people who are selling, right? Because it opens up their um their market hugely for buyers that maybe wouldn't have attended that sale in person. Um, you know, and that goes for salary as an on-farm sales. So that was really just digitizing something that was happening traditionally um and allowing more people to get involved from um, you know, other parts of the country where they may not have traveled to better sale.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

So farming's always evolved, of course. Um do you think that this current wave of technology that we're seeing is fundamentally different in some way, or is it just the latest chapter?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah, it's that's a tricky question because I think technology will always evolve, right? We've seen that, like it just continually changes. Um, the pace of the change can be different depending on um factors in in the environment, whether that's out in the market or um, you know, a latest innovation that's really opened up other opportunities. But I think there's been certain milestones or certain things that have happened that have removed a lot of barriers for ag tech. Um, for example, 15 years ago, smartphones weren't really a thing, right? Everyone had flip phones, the body nookia phones with the clicky buttons, um, and connectivity was relatively limited. Whereas now I think you'd struggle to find a farming household where there wasn't a smartphone at least, and where they didn't have good Wi-Fi, if not good cell coverage or direct to satellite coverage around their farm. So that in itself, I think, has removed a big barrier. Like everyone's got this device that they carry around that's got massive capability of what you can do with it and um what things you can access. So it just makes a lot of um technology use possible in farmers' everyday life, right? Just by having this one device or one tool. So I think we are seeing a different wave of change now. Um, there's younger farmers coming through that have grown up with technology being a really big part of their life. So that's much more of a natural thing for them to implement uh technology in the everyday business versus the older generation who had to learn in their older years about using tech and what it could do for them. So I think the younger generation at times have just naturally got a more open mind to how technology can fit in. Not saying the older generation don't, because um a lot of our farmers, a lot of the farmers I work with are not younger farms, you know, like it technology is for everyone, right? It just depends on people's um appetite and openness to really think about what they can change in their business and how different tools can actually work for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

The sort of theme of this podcast is around uh technology's role in farm succession. To start with, um, do you think that farmers sometimes underestimate how much knowledge they actually hold in their heads until they have to pass that on?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Absolutely. And like I think about my dad in this sense. I remember when I was at uni and studying, it was like some uh plants and agriculture paper or something. Um, and I was asking him, like, we were walking around on the farm together, I was asking him, I'm like, what's that plant? What's that plant? And he would just be able to rattle them off, right? Like it was nothing. And it's just this knowledge that they have from years of practical experience. And I I often think they don't even know how much they really know. Um, and that's something that's that will always be really important, is that that learnt practical knowledge that you can't necessarily um pass down or pass on through technology. Um, but that's something that that's where the human factor comes into it, I think. And families pass that knowledge on through generations. And then it's looking at what other things can we use tech for, sort of manual tasks, what can we automate, how can we collect more data to then apply our practical knowledge in a different way, right? With the additional data we're capturing.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, because I think we we usually think about um succession as the transfer of assets from one generation to the next, right? Um, but how important is that transfer of knowledge and decision-making capability?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Well, I think the transfer of land, for example, or that sort of transfer of financial responsibility is often a moment, right? Or an event, like a very set event that happens. Whereas the transfer of knowledge, that's a really long-term thing. You know, that starts for families when children are really young. They start learning, you know, about the everyday happenings on the farm and that practicality. And I think that's something that never really stops. Like that's just an ongoing thing that happens, um, particularly in families where succession is happening. Um, you know, younger generation are getting more and more responsibility in the day-to-day operations generally. Um, so they already have this practical experience and knowledge that's been passed down to a point, and then they start being able to apply it in their own ways, get feedback from the older generation. Like it's it is really an ongoing journey, I think, um, versus a set moment in time where that financial um asset might transfer over.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, and and what role do you think technology that can then play in helping that transfer of knowledge?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

I think like technology may not have been used that widely previously, right, in some farming businesses. But I think when there are younger generations coming in to the business, it's a really nice opportunity for them to make a decision about bringing in a certain tool and then actually own that space of that technology tool. So for example, if it's a new app that they want to start using for the data management of the farm or recording certain things, or whether it's virtual fencing or whatever that tool might be, they get to make that decision, you know, do the investigational due diligence about bringing it in and then actually be able to manage that um space day to day. So it gives them that sort of responsibility, that ownership of something that they've decided to bring into the farm. And then I think once they have implemented it, then that's when they can really start tracking different performance metrics for themselves based on other things that they might be changing in the business too. Um, and that's something that um may have been done previously, you know, in a manual way on paper. Um, my parents have got like a notebook that they call the Bible, which has got all their, you know, all their carving information and stuff like that. But you know, a younger generation might do that in a different way, might be with an app or whatever, and then can actually start tracking performance metrics, um, tracking changes that they make to the farm in a different way, right? And actually have, you know, maybe different or better visibility of data and and that sort of thing. So um I think it is really important to give those younger generations something that they can really own and take responsibility for um in that journey.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

In your role at Gallagher, um, you you know, you're working with the e-shepherd product, um, virtual fencing and such. Are you are you seeing many like real life examples of this coming into a business where there's different generations in the business?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's quite common. Um, and and in saying that we've got a real mix of of farmers in New Zealand, different customers of all ages, right? We've got some older farmers, we've got younger farmers, and we've got a lot of families who are in that succession space. So maybe it is a family that's still running the whole business, but there's a younger generation that's come in and again is sort of owning the virtual fencing space. So we've got quite a few instances of that around the country where there is a younger farmer who is our sort of day-to-day contact for eShipid, they're managing the app, um, they're managing all the hardware, um, they look after the virtual fencing and that sort of remote management of the livestock, but they've still got their, whether it's their parents or the older generation involved as well and helping them in the practical day-to-day of the farm.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

What are you seeing with the older generation with mum and dad? Are they embracing that technology or do they do they leave it to the to the kids to deal with?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah, I think they absolutely are embracing it. Um, I've never come across a family where they're not in agreement about what they're doing, right? In terms of virtual pencil or e-ship. Um, I think it's something that maybe if if an older generation were hesitant to jump into it at first, once they actually see it being implemented, once they see the practical improvements that can be had on the farm, once they see the additional time that people on the farm might have to do other higher value tasks. Um, that really changes things for them. Like it is actually seeing the practical implementation and what benefits this tech or this product can provide for them. Then they really start to understand actually this is this is awesome, right? Um, but I think it sometimes takes seeing it for themselves to really understand that. And that's just the probably human nature to a point. We actually want to see proof, right? Before we jump into something. Um, but also farmers that are incredibly practical, um, they know how their farm operates, they've known how their farm operates for years, and sometimes change can be scary. Again, human nature, we're we're creatures of routine, right? We don't actually like change that much, or a lot of us don't. So um, sometimes it can be hard to jump into something new, but again, once you see the the positive outcome, it makes it make sense, I think, for many people.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Can you give any examples of where you've seen technology actually improving the dialogue, the conversation between generations um rather than creating conflict?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Oh, for sure. And I think this comes down to the sort of change in productivity that you can actually see. And I don't want to speak out of tune or generalise about succession, but I think a lot of the time, if younger generations are coming into a family business, a farming business, at times there could be um debt that they have to take on, right? High levels of debt. And I suppose having a tool that can change productivity on the property can really help with that. They can actually start really showing some clear metrics of what they've done and where they're lifting, and that can help the whole transition be a lot easier and smoother for those younger generations. Um, again, change can be difficult. I think sometimes older generations um will do something because they've always done it, and that's fine. Like if it's worked for them in the past, that's that's awesome. But if uh someone else is coming into the business and wanting to do something different, it's great if they've got a tool that can help them implement that or apply that change without having to completely change the um the labour units on the farm or change the fencing of the farm. You know, it actually allows them to do something different without having to go to this next level of changing all these really permanent things, I think.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Caitlin, what sort of information do you think that every farm business should be capturing today that's gonna make succession easier in five or ten years from now?

SPEAKER_01 16:27

I think understanding the land more through data about animal movement is really key. And like I think about our red meat story when we're talking about exports um overseas customers who enjoy our red meat. And this is a space I'm really passionate about, too, is actually our red meat industry and and the products that our um amazing farmers produce. If we can tell that story much better about where our animals have been, what they've been doing, um, how we're looking after our land with our animals, um, grazing there, that is really, really good for us as a as a country and as an industry, I think, with our red meat export. So um I think that is something we need to do much more of. And again, it's it's not an individual farmer's responsibility, it's more of an industry thing. But I think a tool like virtual fencing can really help that actually makes it really easy to collect that sort of data when you've got animals wearing a device that actually tracks them all the time. Um, that's something I think will be really incredible in the future.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

So you're talking about using data to basically tell our brand story to the world.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Absolutely. Um, and I think that's what global customers or consumers will demand in the future, too, is actually that's a nice story, but we're the proof, right? We need to see that um, that in the proof. So, again, having that data to really strengthen our story about how we farm and um how our animals live and where our red meat comes from for our global consumers will be really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Just to flip that um in a different direction, you know, we we talk a lot about how these new technologies are enabling farmers to collect so, you know, so much data about what's happening on the farm. Is there a risk that farms or even the industry um collects this data but doesn't actually turn it into useful knowledge?

SPEAKER_01 18:23

For sure. And I think this has been a little bit of an industry problem. Like I think there's just so many apps, there's so many different apps that farmers could use, and um you can collect so much data, but what are you actually doing with it, right? I think it's really important for farmers to think about what are the outcomes that we want to achieve? Like what are the practical things we're trying to achieve, and then sort of work backwards. Okay, well, what data do we need to collect? What do we need to change? Um, how are we gonna track this? Um, again, with those really clear outcomes or objectives in mind. Otherwise, you are sort of collecting data for no reason, right? If you're not sure what you're gonna do with it or what you're gonna change in response to the data that you're seeing, then there's probably no point collecting it. But if you have clear objectives about what you are trying to achieve, it makes it a lot easier and it feels more worthwhile, I think, going through that process too.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah, I mean, you sort of touched on this a bit earlier. We're talking about virtual fencing. Are the people that you're seeing embrace the technology mostly younger farmers, or are you seeing uptake across all generations?

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Definitely all generations. Um, I look after Australia and New Zealand, so I look after both teams. And I know for sure in Australia we've got a customer in his ADs um using the product. So that says in itself that this is for everybody, right? Um they have to have a certain, I suppose, level of capability driving a computer or a phone for that matter, but it's not restrictive in terms of who would be interested in using this technology. Um, again, I think if somebody, regardless of age, can see that um practical benefit to them, then it just makes sense to go with it, regardless of how young or old they might be. Um, we've got a real range, I would say, of ages using eSupid, um, from younger farmers who are just maybe coming into a family business or just getting started on their own, you know, on a lease block or something like that, all the way through to farmers who um, like I had a guy near Danny Burke tell me he just wants to enjoy his last two years of farming, right? He wants to make it easier and simpler for himself. He's going to retire in two years. He's taken on some e-shepherd um collars or neck bands so that he can just really simplify his last couple of years. So that's awesome to hear as well, right? It is really for everybody, depending on what that sort of practical benefit looks like for them.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Where do you see the balance between experience, you know, hands-on experience and data? And do you think that technology can ever replace the instincts that come from decades spent on the land?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I think practical knowledge is something like when we think about it, that hands-on experience, it is really that practical knowledge of how to do certain things, right? And I don't think technology will ever necessarily replace that. Like that is the human part of farming. And there's also that decision-making piece that comes from, you know, what what we know, that practical knowledge and experience of working on a farm or on the land for a number of years, that you can actually um learn how to make proactive decisions without using technology. But I think technology can help, like if we do have additional data that can show us certain patterns or trends and sort of enable us to make better decisions faster, for example. Um, that's where probably the balance is. Like, I just don't think technology will ever replace some of that practical knowledge and experience, but it can really help us in in other ways, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

What sort of knowledge? Do you think is still really, really difficult to digitize? You know, what's the stuff that we'll always rely on for human judgment?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I think really looking at land memory, I've heard someone talk about it as I think Willie Lyons actually talked about it, one of our customers, as land memory, like really understanding how a property or a farm performs through certain seasons or through certain weather events and patterns. That's not necessarily something that technology can do for us. Maybe one day in future it will, but right now we probably don't have enough data over enough years to really understand how a farm performs, you know, through those different seasons. Like maybe if we had 20 years worth of data, we would be able to understand that through a technology tool of some description. But right now, I would say we probably can't. We don't, because technology is relatively new in the sense of farming. We probably don't have that information going as far back as we need it to to really understand how land, for example, or a farm would perform in certain areas through certain seasons. The other thing is just some of the everyday practical tasks that farmers have to do, whether that's fencing or whatever, right? Like that's not something you can just automate like that. You can have tools like virtual fencing which take away some of the need to do those tasks, but there will always be that um requirement for some of that practical stuff. And as I said, that's not something you can replace that easily, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

What does your old man think about virtual fencing out of interest?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Listen, he was he's open to it. He was a little bit skeptical, I think. Um, and look, they they're probably um farmers who really watch closely before jumping into something, right? They they take their time to make a decision, and again, that's fine. But as I said, he was probably a little bit skeptical. Um, I've got some of the heifers at my place, um, some mob of heifers. And I said to him, I'm gonna put um easy fitted collars on these heifers. And then he started getting really interested, right? He's thinking, oh, can I maybe I'll come up and give you a hand to put them on and oh, I wouldn't mind seeing how the app works now. And like it's just taken me to say, oh, I'm gonna do this, and you know, you'll see them on your heifers sort of thing. And now he's getting really interested, like he wants to know more about how it works. So I think again, it's just that um seeing somebody else who they know using it or being able to see it for themselves working before they really start to think actually this could work for me. Um, yeah, it's just a different, I suppose a different style of decision making, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Bringing it back to that succession theme as we round this podcast out. If a farming family is beginning to think about succession seriously over the next five to ten years, what practical steps should they be taking now, not just financially, but from a technology and knowledge sharing perspective, Caitlin?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

I think it's like when we think about the word succession, we want to set people up for success as well, those younger generations coming through, right? So I think it's really thinking clearly about what spaces or what things we can allow those younger generations to actually start owning and taking responsibility for on farm. Um, what things might they like to do differently in the future based on their values and different ways of um of farming or different lifestyle preferences, and actually making sure we are implementing tools now or implementing things that can enable them to do those things, um, you know, whether that is spending more time off farm or um continuing with the sport that they play or um spending more time with their kids. Like I think things are uh maybe different now to what they were 25, 30 years ago in terms of expectations around family life and stuff like that. So, how can we actually enable that? Um, and I think there's no better time to start than than now in terms of that planning and setting those younger people up for success when they do come into that family business. Um, that's what it is all about is actually making sure that farming families can hold on to the farm that they've got, that they love, right? Um, raise the next generation there and and look after that land. And I think setting up that that younger generation for success by um making sure we're enabling them to farm the way they want to farm is really, really important. So start planning now. Look at the tools that are available, give those younger generations the chance to actually own that space or take responsibility for something that they can manage every day in their business.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

You know, when today's young farmers are handing over their farms in 30 or 40 years' time when they're in that place, what do you think they'll wish that they had started doing now?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

I think they'll probably the same. They'll wish that they started planning earlier, right? Like I think a lot of families, even though they know it's coming, seem to get caught off guard when succession actually comes to a um a crunch point, you know, when the rubber really starts hitting the road and that um transition really starts to happen. I think a lot of the time people are caught off guard with whether it's expectations or um what certain people want to achieve out of the whole process. I think the earlier you can start planning and thinking about the future, um the better, um, the more information you know about the business and how it performs over time, probably the better informed you'll be to make some of the decisions down the track. Um, for that reason, I think having more data is better. Actually, having data over a number of years about um how the business performs, doing different things, what changes you've made, um, how it's changed the dial, that all helps, I think, in the long run. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Caitlin, just to finish on a bit of a quick fire around here, in this whole space that we're talking about, what's one thing that farmers should stop doing, one thing they should keep doing, and one thing they should start doing?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

I think in terms of stop doing, this is my view, obviously. I think we as a as an industry, um, as individual farmers, need to stop being held back by yesterday in terms of what we might do tomorrow. So stop thinking about we haven't done that before, or we didn't used to be able to do that, and actually start thinking about what might be possible, right? Like how can we do those things? How can we achieve that thing that we're trying to achieve, not why we can't. That is, and that's something that, you know, not just for farmers, but that probably goes for a lot of things when we're thinking about technology, especially. Really important to just open, open the mind and really start being curious about what we could do if we changed these small things in our business, right? Um, in terms of start doing, probably in line with that, like start being curious, thinking about um what might be possible if we're willing to change um or willing to implement um a tool or willing to implement um, you know, some things that we do a little bit differently, like remote livestock management. What else could we change in our business and what could it mean for us going forward? Um, in terms of keep doing, like I think keep being some of the best farmers in the world, if I'm honest, in New Zealand, like we we do an incredible job. What we do, um, working, doing some work in Australia in the last um 12 months is showing me just the clear differences, right, and in how we farm and how lucky we are with the environment that we farm in compared to other parts of the world. So I think keep taking advantage of the incredible, um, the incredible things that we've been given in New Zealand in terms of how much grass we grow and our rainfall and things like that, um, and keep producing some of the best products in the world for our global consumers as well. It's a little bit cliche, isn't it? But it is what I truly believe. Like I, yeah, I'm passionate about what we do here in New Zealand. Um, and you know, really proud, proud of the products that we do produce, and and I suppose proud of my small, um, very small uh impact to the industry as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Oh mate, I can, yeah, and that's awesome. Your your passion that comes through really strongly, Caitlin. It's um a pretty, pretty chilly Monday morning, but you've I love it. You've you've you've you've come fired up about the industry. Um hey, thanks so much for what you've shared. Really good practical information, um, great advice for farmers. And it's it's a nice addition to the succession conversation. We do talk about it a lot, um, but I haven't done a podcast where we've talked about technology's role in that. So thanks so much for what you've shared.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

No, really appreciate. Um, really appreciate the chat. It's been great catching up and yeah, always, always nice talking about something that I, you know, care deeply about and um enjoy my everyday life, right? Like I'm so lucky to work with so many different farmers and in this space and see the incredible um impact that technology can have for our farmers. So it is something that I'm really happy to talk about as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Good on you, Caitlin. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Federated Farmers Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or review. That really helps others to find the show. We'll be back soon with another conversation about the people issues and ideas shaping rural New Zealand. Thanks for listening.