Federated Farmers Podcast
The Federated Farmers Podcast is your weekly guide to the issues affecting rural New Zealand. Join us as we unpack the policies, challenges and big ideas shaping life on farm. With frank conversations from farmers, advocates and experts, we break down what matters and why, so you can stay informed, prepared and heard.
Hosted by Ben Chapman-Smith, Federated Farmers' communications manager, who grew up on a sheep and beef farm in Te Akau on Waikato's west coast.
Federated Farmers Podcast
Christopher Luxon unscripted | EP 100
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In this special 100th episode of the Federated Farmers Podcast, the Prime Minister sits down for a personal, wide-ranging conversation about the experiences and people that shaped him long before politics.
From growing up in Christchurch and Auckland to building an international business career with Unilever and leading Air NZ, Luxon reflects on the lessons he's learned about leadership, family and resilience.
He shares the influence of his parents, the advice from his grandfather that still guides his marriage, why he banned mobile phones around his children, and the habits that helped shape his career.
Along the way, he talks about country music, studying great leaders, raising a family overseas, returning home to New Zealand, and why relationships matter more than job titles.
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G'day everybody and welcome to the 100th episode of the Federated Farmers Podcast. Well, 100th episodes is a pretty big milestone, and before we get into this one, I just want to say a genuine thank you to everyone who's listened, shared an episode, sent us feedback, or simply kept coming back each week. We really appreciate it and we're only just getting started. For our 100th episode, we wanted to do something a little bit different. And so we're joined today by Prime Minister Christopher Luxon. But this isn't a conversation about politics, parliament, or the next election. Instead, we wanted to find out a bit more about the man behind the job. You know, what shaped him, what makes him tick. What does he enjoy when he's not being Prime Minister? And what are the experiences, people and values that have helped shape the person who ended up in the beehive? The aim here was to have a relaxed, candid conversation. More like sitting down for a yarn over a cupper than conducting a traditional political interview. So for our 100th episode, here's Christopher Luxton, unscripted. And before we start, I want to say a quick thank you to everyone who entered our 100th episode giveaway for one of three Gallagher Fault Finders. We had some excellent podcast suggestions and we'll be looking to make those happen in the future. I'm pleased to announce that our three winners drawn at random are Matthew Walker, Jared Spencer, and Andrew Lord, and we'll get a Gallagher fault finder out to each of you this week. Let's get into it. Good morning, Prime Minister, and thank you very much for joining us on the Ferroid Farmers podcast. It's a real privilege to have you on for our 100th episode. This interview today is more about getting to know you than about discussing politics. So let's jump right in at the start.
SPEAKER_00Thank goodness. All my interview today will be about politics, and I actually prefer I'm looking forward to this. This will be great fun. So no looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_01Prime Minister, tell us a bit about your early years to start with. Where did you grow up and and what sort of a child was uh Christopher Larkson?
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's a good question. Um, look, you know, born to Kathleen and Graham, I had young parents and um they'd both left school at 15 and 16. I'm the oldest of three boys. And uh really my early days were in Christchurch. My dad was a sales rec for a company called Johnson ⁇ Johnson, and so they sold things like band-aids and talcum powder and you know, Johnson ⁇ Johnson baby shampoo. And then when I was probably about seven years old, we moved up to Auckland because dad became a national sales manager. And uh then my days and a lot of my childhood was then spent in a place called Halleck in Auckland, and that's where I actually it's part of the area I represent today in Botany as the Botany MP. Uh and then we moved back to the South Island, back to Christchurch in the fifth form, went to Christchurch Boys High School, um, then on out into university and out into the world. But um, amazing parents, you know, incredible parents. You know, my dad is just a born optimist, you know, was um, you know, I used to read the books that he'd give his sales teams on, you know, Life is Tremendous by Charlie Tremendous Jones and all the positive sort of uh thinking. So he's just a born enthusiast for life and just a great uh yeah, probably my hero, really. He is my hero. And um, and then my mum's an amazing person because she left school at 15, became a receptionist. Uh, and then when I went to university, I was the first in my family to do that. And when I got there, I just said to mum, hey, listen, you're wicked smart. You should really come here as well. And so she did a diploma in social work and she went on to become a really good therapist counsellor and uh for the last 30, 40 years. And so she's just um, yeah, so she's been amazing and done a lot with, you know, relationship, you know, counseling, um, abuse cases, those sorts of things. So um, you know, incredible people. So I was really blessed because I've got, I'm very close to my parents. I would talk to them still once or twice a week. Um, uh, and you know, from my dad, I got a lot of positivity. Don't let your circumstances define where you're going. Um, and from mum, a lot about people skills. And and then I've got two younger brothers, and um, and we were very close. And I don't know how you found it, but yeah, we were, we grew up together, three of us under the age of five, um, different personalities, brought up to respect each other. We all do have different, you know, things that we're good at. And then um, and then we still, you know, we talked to those, I talk to my brothers at least once a week as well. So um, and even though we all went around the world and were away for periods of time, you know, we we still built and maintained those relationships. So I just think that anchoring for me of having a family where um, you know, mum and dad are got a lot of learn, you know, think about someone who's different from you. And as mum would say, walk across the room and put yourself into someone else's shoes and understand where they're coming from before you're understood. And then dad's relentless positivity, uh, and that that centrality of that family is so important, particularly when you take on a job like politics, where you know, yeah, I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning if I read everything that's written about me. So, um, so yeah, so that's been really cool. Yeah, it's a really, really cool place. So yeah, just a regular Kiwi upbringing and you know, playing around on bikes and playing sports and doing all sorts of things. It's great.
SPEAKER_01I read about the fact that you had a business sort of ambition from quite a young age. Did that come from your father?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it did. Yeah, he was a sales rep, so he was responsible for you know bits of the South Island, and you know, I would often go traveling away with him and we'd set up you know displays in supermarkets where you know the band-aids would be put on, you know, display patterns at the end of supermarket aisles, and and so I just screw up with that, I think. Um my dad didn't have a business education as such, you know, like he was a sales guy that became a you know a good manager um ultimately and sort of self-taught. Um and he's an incredible guy because he had started from very, very humble beginnings and you know, really I've got huge respect for my dad because he did change the course of fathering and parenting in my family quite a bit. You know, he was very intentional as a dad, a really good dad. And I think that set a role model up for me and my brothers to be with our own kids, which was pretty special. But um, no, I guess, you know, for me, yeah, I'd always wanted I was always curious about business. Um, as a young person, you would have seen me in, you know, at 11 or 12. I had a Commando War magazine. Um, you might remember Commando War magazines, some of the older people when you were at intermediate school. And I had a friend of mine, Lynn, and her father would buy them new but give them to me two weeks later. And I was the Commando King resailer of I had 1200 of those magazines, and the kids would come to one central area on a Saturday and I'd trade these magazines. And and then I got into sort of painting businesses, like I'd have paint roofs, decks, and fences, and then I had a window cleaning round, lawn mowing round, two-paper rounds, um, a whole bunch of stuff. So I I loved sort of that entrepreneurial stuff um from the very beginning and um and then uh yeah, and carried it on really.
SPEAKER_01What sort of subjects did you enjoy at school and excel at in school?
SPEAKER_00My favorite subject is history, and um it I really love history, and yeah, I liked sort of a bit of economics at school as well, but mostly history. And it's just because uh when I was about nine or ten, I remember going off to the Cockle Bay School Library and actually getting a book out on World War II. There was a series called the Osborne Books, and they were quite colourful books, but they they it was the Osborne book of World War II. I bought one actually on on Trade Me a few years back. Uh, and I I loved World War II history, and then I started reading about uh Winston Churchill. Uh, and then probably from the age of about 17, I've always just picked a leader uh to study uh for a full year. So, you know, I'd pick um, you know, I remember actually a few years back, I picked Bobby Kennedy, you know, Robert Kennedy, and you know, I I'd read six books about Bobby Kennedy, watch a couple of movies, sort of think about the things that he did really well, you know, what did you learn from that? What you know, what were the things he didn't do so well. And whether they were business leaders, you know, founders of Walmart, or whether it was, you know, political leaders, or big community leaders that I admired as well. And so I've always believed that reading and history sort of teaches you patterns that, you know, today I spent time talking to Bill Birch and Jim Bulger, for example, when I first came into politics, because in many ways they were going through a similar time uh in the history of New Zealand, although the context is different and some of the challenges are different, but you know, the their pattern was similar to my pattern, you know, that I've had to deal with coming in at this time uh in 2023. Um, the same when I was at E New Zealand or any other CEO gig I had, I would go talk to when I came home to New Zealand, New Zealand, I went back and spoke to all the former living CEOs that had gone before me. And I'd take them out to lunch and say, right, what was your time like? What did you learn from here? And then you realise actually we're all dealing with the same problem, different context, but some of the same problems and challenges and opportunities that exist. So history's been really important to me.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing that from the age of 17 you decided to do that. Most 17-year-old Kiwi lads aren't reading six books a year on world leaders.
SPEAKER_00I need a lot of stimulation, right, in my my my brain and my job. And so yeah, I was still playing, you know, cricket and hockey and rugby and and I had my job at McDonald's then, and you know, I had a lot on the go, but um, that's how I sort of like life to be. So um, yeah, so just yeah, that I find that very stimulating that there's a lot of learnings from history, and sometimes we don't understand history, and it can help explain the situation we're in. You know, like to be honest, I was explaining this the other day. You know, at the moment out there in the world, it feels pretty, you know, chaotic and volatile and uncertain. But actually, if you think about post-World War I, post-World War II, the collapse of the Cold War, yeah, the world's changing again. But you know, we don't need to be freaked out about it. We will find a way through it. Um, yes, but it is changing um because we've got this shift from what we call the rules-based system to the power-based system. Um, but but yeah, that's where I think history is helpful um because you do learn stuff from that.
SPEAKER_01Were you a leader through school as well? Was that quite apparent from early on that you you had that in you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, I went to school probably a little bit earlier than most of the boys my age. I think I went at four uh to a little Catholic school in Christchurch called Loreto College. And um, yeah, I was given lots of leadership opportunities as even a little chap, you know, um, at that moment in time. But I was probably quite a good all-rounder. You know, I was sort of raised by mum and dad to try and, you know, to give everything a go, really. Um, and so, you know, I really I wasn't a superstar sports person, but I was a good sports person. I liked it. Um, you know, I wouldn't have been the number one academic in this class, but I was always in a you know a top class doing well. Um so you know, I was I was taught to be rounded physically, you know, mentally, um, socially. Um, you know, I had a lot of friends and a lot of different interests and groups that belonged to something called Boys Brigade, which was sort of the Presbyterian version of scouts. And so, you know, most weekends we'd be out somewhere, you know, tramping and um across New Zealand. And I was on a you know, bugle and drum band with the Boys Brigade doing Anzac Day services or representing school and the school Anzac Day marches. But you know, so I was just sort of there was a lot of those things going on, and um, and obviously, you know, also a church going on with youth groups and things like that as well. So um, yeah, it was just it was just a it was a great way to grow up. I mean, honestly, so blessed, you know, so lucky to have awesome parents, young, young parents, you know, when I think they were 21 when I was born, um, and um who just did so well and then created opportunities for us. And then when the opportunities come, it's a question of are you going to be, you know, curious and actually pick them up and do something with them and have the courage to try some things that are different? And and I've had lots of opportunities come my way, and as a consequence, you meet lots of interesting people or have different learn you know experiences that um you know you learn from, which is pretty cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Apart from your parents, who had the biggest influence on you as you were growing up in your in those formative years? Was there were there any anyone you read about? Were there any teachers? Um, you know, who did you look up to?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, as I said, I sort of had read probably most of the history of the presidents of the 20th century. So I sort of I I got a lot of my own learning really. I drove my own learning in in many ways because I I've read so much autobiographical material about people. And it's just just because my brain was interested in people, really. Um, but I took bits from different people along the way. You know, I had um, there's no single person in my my world, it's sort of like historical figures, and but it's also I had very good managers and leaders at Unilever. It was a very good talent development place. You know, they spent a lot of uh time and effort um building you into good leadership, giving you leadership experiences where you could, you know, learn from, make mistakes, but actually was going to be useful for you down the road. I mean, um, but you know, the other person that's without doubt, you know, honestly, the the greatest decision I ever made in my life, the greatest achievement of my life, you know, well ahead of being prime minister, is actually Amanda, uh, my wife. You know, I'm I I met Amanda when I was 15. You know, we were dating at 19 and married at 23. And then at 24, essentially 25, we we left New Zealand and we were away for 16 years, had our kids overseas. You don't have a family network around you. We both had very big, extreme jobs. Um, I had massive jobs when I was overseas, you know, as a young guy in my late 20s, being responsible for an Asia Pacific region based in Sydney, you know, and then into London to the head office, and then over to Chicago and then Toronto and New York. And I had, you know, local country responsibilities and international responsibilities. And so, you know, I was often on one or two international flights a week, and how you put all of that family life relationship together is so important. And in an extreme job like I have today, that's just you know, 20 hours a day, seven days a week, um, you know, how that has prepared us so well for you know being able to take on, you know, and have these amazing experiences. Um so yeah, without doubt, I mean I mean Amanda's the most significant person in my life. And you know, my my goal is to get to 90 years old and to be able to be in even a stronger relationship than what we have today. And also to be able to put my arm around my adult kids, you know, that is success, right? It's not what you've done. You know, people will often say, they'll introduce me through my job titles, you know. Well, that's all very interesting, but that will all go away one day. And the thing that will really matter is the relationships that you've got with people and the people closest to you and your friends and your family that you get to do life with, with all the ups and downs that come to all of us um through our lives, which is um pretty special. So now she's she's really awesome. I mean, she's just amazing. And um, and I've married so up because you know, she was two years ahead. Actually, she was two or three years ahead of me at school. So I was really, you know, like I was I was at Christchurch Boys High School, taking her to the Christchurch Teachers College ball. I was doing really well. So um I believe I still believe that.
SPEAKER_01Do you think she knew what she was getting herself in for um partnering up with you, that you weren't just going to be a you know, a normal channel? Yeah, she knew I was a kiwi bloke. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And she knew I wanted to go places and do things. And yeah, I I remember going over to her mum and dad's place on a Sunday afternoon. I was still calling them Mr. and Mrs. Ray and telling them how I really wanted to go live in Boston for 10 years and ended up living in the in Chicago and New York and Toronto instead. But um, no, I mean I had a I'm I I'm I was kind of weirdly wired then in the sense of as a young person, you know, because of dad's influence, I guess I read things like Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I was taught to sort of, and it's just my personality or my brain is wired in a way where if you had met me at 15 or 17, I would have told you, look, I'm going to university. No one's done this in my family in 5,000 years, but I'm going and I'm going to do a commerce degree. And then at 17, I could have told you the three companies I wanted to target and work for by nine, you know, by 21. I was offered a job while I was still at university with Unilever, which was one of the biggest companies in the world at the time. And um, and then I got on their global trainee program and you know, the rest is sort of history from there. And I got lots of early management and leadership experience, um, you know, and leading the big turnarounds of companies and things like that. So, and then I got to live in all around the world for 16 of the 18 years I worked there. Um, and I saw the good, the bad, and ugly of lots of different countries. And the countries I lived in are the five eyes networks that we're actually very close with in this job. So I know these countries really well. And that served me quite well, actually, for the job that I've got as prime minister with building relationships and rapport with other world leaders because you know I understand the world pretty well, having visited most countries on earth before. So um, yeah, so I think you know, I just feel really blessed. But yeah, Manda knew what she's getting into, and and she's amazing because she had left school in the sixth form and she was super smart. And so she went off to do teachers college a year early, you know, and was young. And then her first teaching job was down in Pinwell, just out of Ashburton. And so I I was in university early part, she'd finished, and um, and we would, you know, um had our friends in Christchurch Ashburton all over the place, and you know, we'd commute on my old 1962 Riley Alf from Christchurch down to Ashburton to see her, and she'd come up in the 1975 Austin 1300, and uh it's great. So, you know, we've just been together ever since, and and it's a real you've got to be a team, you know, and it's like like many of you know the folk that are in your world, you know, I'm always so struck and impressed by um you know the partnerships that are formed on farm um between partners and you know, and you just see the different roles they play in the mix, and you just see amazing young couples working incredibly hard and uh older couples have been through it all and but stuck by each other and and got through, you know, it's really great. I was very lucky of my grandparents who were probably married for 72 years. Uh my parents celebrated their 57th wedding anniversary last week, actually. And um and I um and I've I've been married 32 years, and uh and I had good role models actually of my grandparents. But I remember actually talking to my granddad about it one day, must have been the 60th wedding anniversary, and I just go around and see him after school. And uh he said to me, I said, mate, great granddaughter, what's the what's the secret why you and Anna have been so successful for so long? And he said to me, Chris, you've got to wake up each day wanting to do it for the other person more than for yourself. And I think when you've got that mentality, how can I make Amanda's day great today and vice versa, or what is it that she needs from me that's gonna help this week? Um, that just gets you over yourself and your ego and and your own self-interest to actually saying, okay, I'm in a relationship and this relationship's got to get fed, it's got to grow. And you're growing as individuals, as people and changing, you know, through life. But how do you stay together and find those things that you know do that? So, yeah, when we went to, you know, we had set our kids relatively young and overseas, we would still organise date night, you know, if we're in London, um, you know, where I would be traveling through the week, I could be anywhere in the world and back home to London, and then we'd bring a babysitter in, and then we would just do date night. And it was a Westfield shopping mall food court in a movie. Uh it still is sometimes actually today. That's awesome. Yeah, because you gotta make that time to invest in each other, right? Um, and to still get to know each other. And, you know, just yeah, we we we I just it's one of my great, great um joys spending time with Amanda. So yeah. That hasn't changed, you know, despite the profile of jobs I may have had, um, you know, that that is actually everything's just normal, you know, in that world. I mean, nothing, yeah, it's really quite cool. And even in my own house, actually, I've got a I've got a 27 and almost 25-year-old now. Uh, and you know, that's an awesome stage of life to be in as well, because you know, you are now able to be their friend for their first time and not their parent. And um, and you know, they're amazing young people and they've got amazing friends, but you know, it's just nothing's changed in that dynamic with this job, and I think that's a really good thing, you know, that um, yeah, I don't I'm not sure my kids this week would have a clue what sort of week I'm having um because actually they know that dad's doing his thing and there's enough other people with views on what's going on in his given week. But for us, you know, let me tell you about what's been going on in my world, Dad. Um, that's been what the conversations have been this week so far with my kids.
SPEAKER_01You've touched on your career with Unilever, and most Kiwis will know that you had a successful international business career before you came into politics. But can you just tell us a bit more about that time in your life and how you ended up living in the US and and Canada and what life was like for you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was really cool. What happened was um I went to Canterbury University, I did a three-year Bachelor of Commerce in Business Administration, and then I was able to do a one-year Master's of commerce in business administration. Essentially it was an MBA, but with an academic thesis. And halfway through that year, Unilever was running graduate recruitment programs. And Unilever at the time, and I, you know, this is still a large company today, but January was one of the largest companies in the world. And, you know, they sell everything from Magnum ice cream, you know, probably number one, number two ice cream company in the world, right through to personal laundry detergent, sunlight dishwash liquid. When I joined, that was my first job, uh, right out to Dove Hair Care and Dove Soap and all those sorts of things, and literally everything in between 1,600 brands, big consumer, fast-moving consumer goods business, doing home care, personal care, foods, and beverages. Uh so yeah, so they recruited me halfway through my last year in my master's degree at Canterbury. So I knew I had a job at the end of that period of time. It was quite a tough time, actually, because I think I think we had unemployment close to 9% of that time when I came through in the mid-90s, uh, early 90s. And and but they identified me into a uh sort of a hot house training program. Um, and I had to do a lot of psychiatric testing actually through that period at university to get in. And then essentially I was rotated and around a number of businesses working in sales or marketing or operations, and I was offered my first management job about a year in, where I was the brand manager for sunlight dishwash liquid, gif cream cleanser, and handy handy uh uh floor cleaner. And that was my portfolio, what was called the home care products. And uh anyway, been a badly performing business for 20 years, I turned it around and about six months, eight months, or a year later, they asked me to go to Australia and do the same thing with the same business in Australia, and that's how my life sort of started off. And um, I got that sorted, and then I ended up doing Australia New Zealand jobs from Australia and Sydney, where I live for five years, and then I Ended up nearly was a big global operation. So I ended up having Asian responsibilities as well from Sydney. And so you know I'd work in Sydney and then I'd fly off to Bangkok overnight, get there at two in the morning, do a breakfast meeting at six or seven, um, be there all day, leave at four o'clock, get back home to Sydney. And so that was my story, really. And then based off what I'd done there, they asked whether I'd come to the global head office in London, which was at Blackfriars Bridge. Um, and you know, that's when I was now doing a global job. So it was quite common for me to go to Argentina for a couple of days on Monday, Tuesday, drop in to go to Japan and then head back to London for the weekend and um and then that sort of stuff. Um, and then I went to Chicago. I was in London for three years and then into Chicago for six years. And that was a great time of life for a young Kiwi boy from Bishopdale Christchurch to be building a career and living, you know, whereas most Kiwi kids, my mates and my friends were off doing OEs. Um, I was actually doing an OE, but building an expatriate executive career. Um, so I was you know quite lucky that I was able to do all of that. Um, and then when I got to America, I obviously had to sort a business out in America. Um, Unilever had been very big everywhere in the world except for the North America. And so that's why it started acquiring businesses like Ben and Jerry's ice cream and you know, um, bought a lot of they bought a lot of hair care companies, uh, which was weird when you look like me, um, and you're you know getting into Tony and Guy and um, you know, all sorts of, oh yeah, yeah, Helene Curtis and all these sort of hair care companies, um US hair care companies. But um, yeah, so that was great. And then again, I I based in the US and in Canada, but I also had global responsibilities and would, you know, tip typically, you know, had international travel was always part of my thing. And but I was really ruthless about getting home to the kids. So in Chicago, every second week, my reality was I would work all day Monday, downtown in Chicago. I would then go home, do bed, bath, dinner time at six o'clock with the kids and Amanda, and then get and then I'd catch the nine o'clock flight to London, get off the plane in London, um, uh, go straight into my board meeting, be there all Tuesday, uh, agree with the chairman, I'd do half a day on Wednesday and have all my items, leave London at two o'clock, get back to Chicago for six o'clock, do bed, bath time, dinner time. And the kids thought I'd been away for one night. And that was my routine. Whereas a lot of my colleagues would take their golf clubs and hone around and muck around. I my my desire always, even in this job as Prime Minister, is always to get home, always to get home, you know, one back home to Amanda and the kids. So you learn in those very extreme jobs. How do you, you know, as a relationship, you know, Amanda and I, how do we deal with that? We had young kids. Um, how do I make sure I'm available for them? And I had a whole lot of routines. Like when I walk through that front door, they own me, you know, and that's they don't, I don't want them seeing me on that mobile phone. So I banned my mobile phone so my kids never saw it when they were growing up as little ones. I saw too many dads in Chicago sitting on the sidelines looking at their BlackBerries or their phones, you know, while their kids trying to play soccer and their kids, they pick that up, that their dad's not fully engaged in what I'm in treatment, what I'm doing right here, right now. I'm I'm second priority for him right now. So those are the sorts of things where I learned to get up early, do all my emails and my work before they woke up. And when they all went to bed, I did some more at that point. But during the weekends, you know, you just had those disciplines and those routines that you built into it. So yeah, so your level was great because you worked in developing markets, developed markets, you worked on ice cream businesses and cosmetics companies, and then you worked on, you know, mark different business functions, whether it was general management or sales or marketing or operations. Um, and you know, it gave me a proper, proper, really, you know, global business education, really.
SPEAKER_01You were obviously good at turning things around. Like you talk about that first management brand management job you had where you turned that division around. What is it about you that that makes you good at doing that? Because it seems like that was the the thread running through your career at Unilever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that really was. I was sent to places where businesses were poorly performing and my job was to sort it out. Um, yeah, I I just I personally I love the improvement process. You know, like I have I love it, I like I it's a lot of like it was the same with my bicycle, it was the same with my old 1962 Riley off 66 Riley off I've got, which is an old mini with a boot on it. You love the improve, you know, like you love to take something that's all there, but actually, how do you make it exit, how do you make it operationalize and make it work better? I just have been wired, I like that process. Um, and I just it's what I say to young people today is just get famous for getting things done well. I mean, like, like honestly, that that will drive you and your career and how far you go. If you're a person who gets things done, yes, you know, you go to that meeting, you hear it, hear, you know, someone ask for something, you turn it around, you get it done, and get famous for getting stuff done and working hard. And I think that's what I was raised to do. So I think for me that you know the results were important because um that's ultimately what leads to um you moving higher in organization. But I also think, Ben, yeah, I was smart enough and I was curious to learn new things. I think that's a really key criteria. You've got to be one, I think, curious to keep learning and mastering new content. You know, if you're a Kiwi boy and you show up in Illinois, Chicago, and you're expecting, you know, you need to understand the culture you have got into. And the American culture was very different from the New Zealand culture and upbringing. Uh, the British culture I went to was very Oxbridge and intellectual versus what I had grown up with. The Australians, which I love doing business in Australia, but you know, because they're so much more direct, you know, whereas New Zealand's um not we don't do feedback well, and um, you know, whereas they're just more direct, it's not personal, it's just I love you, but that was a terrible meeting. Uh, and whereas we're, you know, we might get a bit more wounded. Um, can't Canada was more like New Zealand, you know, to be honest. So you had to adjust to the culture because if you're just purely all kiwi going in, that doesn't work, you have to be your Kiwi self, but you have to also understand the context. And I I guess you know, upbringing with Mum it taught me a lot about how to think about context and people and situations and how you pick up those signals and adjust. Um, but yeah, so curiosity I think is important to actually learn new things. I think um, you know, communication skills and being able to, you know, large numbers of workforces and people that are, you know, thousands of people that work with me. Um, conflict management skills, really important, the inevitable when you're dealing with people. People are imperfect. Um, big part of my job running a coalition is some of those skills come from that background. And then I think the other thing is just character. You know, you've got to build good character and um think about the end where you know um you know who you are matters much more than than what you've done. You know, I really believe that all that other stuff of what you've achieved will go away. Who you are matters at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01You know this thing we have as Kiwis of, you know, we've got to stay humble, we've got to stay grounded, all of that. Did you ever feel intimidated when you when you you know were in those in those environments?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question, mate. It's a really good question because that's exactly how I felt. And it actually is a I realise it's a bit of a driver for me in this job today as well, because essentially I remember as a 24-year-old heading off to Australia, and I the kids who were 24 in Australia, they were just richer, more sophisticated. They did something called leasing cars, you know, like they had car leases, you know. And I remember driving there, and that one guy had a Mitsubishi V3000 car that leased. Now, that was a car my dad aspired to own, maybe, you know. And I was thinking, and I bought secondhand cars. I went from a 26-year-old Riley Elf in high school into a 1977 Honda Civic, and I had never bought a new car in my life, actually. Uh, and and yet they were just sort of slicker, faster, more direct, just had a bit more going on, you know, like, and that was you go, oh, this is this is a different pace. And then I had to go to England, and England, you could only get into Unilever if you'd really been to Cambridge and Oxford. And so there was a lot of the old Attonian stuff that was uh it was very, very stuffy uh at that time. And and you know, you feel intellectually, man, I've just gone to Canterbury University, I haven't been to Oxford or Cambridge or um Eton. Um, and then you go to America and you could only come into Unilever in America. You've been to the Ivy League school, so Harvard Business School, Yale, Stanford, uh, those kind of places. And I was now 30. When I went there, I was 32, and I was vice president. And um, you know, there were kids that were just coming out of that were my age that were just starting at the very bottom because you could only come to Unilever after your Ivy League postgraduate MBAs. And of course, you're 29, 30 years old just starting in my company, whereas I've started at 22 and learnt a lot in 10 years. Um, so so I so and you can feel like uh you're second class or that we're not as good. And I I learned quite early on, no, I'm a proud Kiwi. I'm proud of the background I've got. Actually, I'm valuable. Uh, my my my upbringing is valuable. I may not have gone to the best universities in the world, and I may not have as much money, and I may not have as uh, but but who I am really, really matters in it, and it is um I'm gonna be, and I reckon my success was because I was a Kiwi with a Kiwi head, but I actually also did a good job of the blending of the things that made a great Kiwi versus uh, you know, understanding how to operate in an American context or in a British context or an Australian context. So I'd get off the plane in Australia when we owned Virgin Australia, even when I was a there in New Zealand, and I just found my language hardened up, you know, like naturally, because I was back up back in Australia. I know how to do business in Australia, we're going to be a bit tougher. When I went to England, it was always you better know the logic of what you're proposing and the first principles and the intellectual underpinnings of the plan. And then when you go to America, it's all about, well, damn well, execute, you know, like you said this yesterday, why hasn't it happened? You know, like uh, so there's an intensity to American life and execution, which is why I want to go live in America, because that's the most, you know, biggest, toughest, hardest business environment to sort of operate in because it's so sophisticated. But, you know, in America, but then not only in America, you know, they can go execute. But if I told them to march off a cliff, they would literally march off a cliff. Whereas the New Zealanders would say, hang on, Sancha, what the hell's going on here? Well, that's not just that's a that's a dumb idea. Uh and so that's where your key-iness was a real advantage because you did think different from how the others thought, but you understood how to get the change happening by bringing your New Zealanders into that, into those different contexts.
SPEAKER_01You know, they talk about John Key as being sort of the smiling assassin, but he had a ruthlessness to him. Are you the same?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm just a person who wants to brutally face up to the reality of your facts. You know, I think, you know, uh I've said when you're doing a turnaround job, you've got to be, you know, the brutal reality, whether you like it or not. You can't put your head in the sand, you've got to call it out and say, you know, this just isn't good enough. And here's the problem that we've got. And then you've got to have a plan to change it and you've got to get results. Uh, and people want results and outcomes. And it's the what you would do in terms of the results, but it's also the how you deliver those results that's important. And that's how people feel change, you know, ultimately. So, yeah, I'm just one of those guys who's who you've got to, okay, we've got a problem. Well, I'm sorry, we are going to pull the trigger and we are going to make a decision about this because either do you seriously want only 45% of our kids going to school, uh, or then we'll just carry on having a conversation admiring the problem, or are we actually going to put in place actions to tell every school, you know, report your attendance daily. Uh, we make it public every week. And lo and behold, we've now driven attendance from 45% of our kids going to school 90% of the time up to almost 70%. That's 175,000 kids back in school with regular school attendance. You know, that's that was a problem. As if there's a common sense solution and a plan, and then here's the solution. So, yeah, I think you've got to drive for results always. And I think that was part of um my my career as well was you know, turn things around, sort things out, do it in a quality way, uh, don't just do it in a in a sort of slapstick way.
SPEAKER_01A quick tangent into country music. Did your love of that start when you were in North America?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it did. It did, because when you live in North America for eight years, there's a hell of a lot of hip-hop, which you can handle for a while, but you know, then it gets a bit tedious. And so um, I discovered what the Americans call American music, which is, you know, country music. Of course, I come from New Zealand where, you know, my mum and dad and granddad Nana like you know, Brendan Dugan, and country music was what we'd call country and western. That was that old school sort of 50-60 stuff. A bit more of a twang to it. Yeah, real twang to it. And so when you realize, you know, artists like Taylor Swift come out of country and then go into the pop world. Or so yeah, so um that's something I love music. I really love music. I think it's one of the things that fills the bottle up, you know, I get energy from it. And so Spotify tells me I'm in the top six or seven percent of people in the world listening to music because I'm surrounded by it all the time. And so, as a family unit with William and Olivia, um, and particularly Olivia and I, we will still do Song of the Day every couple of days with each other. We'll send ourselves a track of something that we've both respectively heard or listened to. And you go to concerts with the kids and you know, those cool things. But um, yeah, that's how I got into country music. I I actually like all types of music, but um, I think when I said country music when I came home and started talking about people like, you know, Luke Bryan and others that now people know in New Zealand but didn't know when I first came home. Um, has been um they now understand. Who's on your playlist these days? I'm going through a Chris Stapleton phase. Uh so parachute I was listening to in the shower this morning, and then um Zach Bryan, uh nine ball is really good. And uh and then I've actually gone into a guy outside country, Sam Fender, he's a young guy from England.
SPEAKER_01I was listening to him this morning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's essentially sort of like a younger, he's he's sort of Britain's version of Bruce Springsteen, actually just telling about gritty life in the UK in the north, and um I just found him a really thoughtful sort of individual to listen to from time to time. So um yeah, like honestly, if I gave you my Spotify list, it's sort of it's a real mishmash. Um, yeah, everything. Yeah, it's quite common on a Friday or Saturday, you know, we'll have the music going, kids and Amanda and I, you know, dancing and bumping, you know, bouncing around the kitchen and living area, and um you've got an old karaoke machine, and you know, so it's just um now we have a lot of fun. It's a way to release and fill yourself up with the fun stuff of life, you know.
SPEAKER_01You came back to New Zealand in was it 2011?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, mid-2011. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What drew you home?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's a good question. I mean, I mean, because we were sort of really setting up for a place where, you know, we could have um Unilever wanted me to stay in North America, um, we would have moved through to citizenship, uh, and uh the kids would have been in American schools and then off into the American education university system. You know, they would have met partners there, their center of life and gravity would have been in the US, uh, and therefore Amanda and Mike Gravity would have been in the US. And yeah, we we loved living there. Um, but we also were Kiwis and we had been, we'd worked really hard to raise our kids as Kiwis while we were overseas. And so we had a rule which was we had to have three weeks back in New Zealand at Christmas time here. Um I we would bring our parents up in the middle of the summer, northern hemisphere summer, the New Zealand winter. Uh so we had good connectivity between our kids and their grandkids, their grandparents. And you know, yeah, there's there's it all sounds very glamorous sometimes, you know, saying where I've lived and worked and and um and I've had unbelievable experiences and met some incredibly amazing people through those experiences. But um at the in your heart, in your gut, you're a Kiwi, you know, and I always and I love New Zealand. And I was saying to someone the other day, I was telling the story, Gary, when I left here at 24, I always flew the New Zealand flag, uh, the silver fern on one side of the door stoop of a house wherever I was in Chicago or wherever, and the key American flag on the other side. And then I always wore the silver fern. You might notice I wear it always on my suit, always have, actually, even when I was in New Zealand and even before. And then um, yeah, and I came back and I put the silver fern on the aircraft, and then yeah, I gave this to all my ministers to wear as well. Because I just so innately I'm a Kiwi, Amanda and I Kiwi. We wanted a Kiwi upbringing for our kids. And as they set up to high school, um, you know, we thought that would be the time to come. We probably had thought we had another two or three years overseas before we came, but one thing led to another, and the Air New Zealand job came up rather randomly, and um, and I thought, well, there's very few big jobs in New Zealand that I could do. Um, and that was one of them. And um, so that's what we did. We came home to do that and loved it, and it's been really the best thing. I mean, the kids just you know, that whole New Zealand that that's strong kiwis, you know, and they had that opportunity to, you know, be raised and with the same values that I had, even if the said circumstances were different.
SPEAKER_01What was that like for you going from working in a very senior position at Unilever to uh in New Zealand and you were you became CEO pretty quickly? How did those two uh roles compare in terms of pressure?
SPEAKER_00Really good question, mate, because actually a lot of New Zealanders don't know what I did before Air New Zealand. And in some ways I had you know aspects where of those jobs were much bigger and more complex and obviously larger businesses. Um so coming back to Air New Zealand was a chance to put everything that I'd learnt together, uh together in the leadership and CEO of Air New Zealand. But at the end of the day, it was a single business, an airline, whereas you know, Unilever had multiple businesses. It was largely predominated in New Zealand with some international businesses, whereas Unilever was in 195 countries. So the complexity scale was sometimes um uh you know, obviously was much larger at a Unilever. But uh Air New Zealand was awesome because you know, we I took over a company at the time when I came in 2011. We're losing $2 million a week on the international division, which was what I was put in charge with. We fixed that up pretty quickly. Um, and then we went on a real tier. You know, I wanted to build a talent factory in Air New Zealand of amazing people that, you know, could go out and do other business jobs. And, you know, basically all my direct reports and our CEOs and other companies across New Zealand, it's pretty special, it's pretty inspiring, and I'm very proud about it. But we just had a lot of fun and we proved that you can be the uh the world's best airline uh from New Zealand. Um, and you if you've got ambition and aspiration and you're really prepared to take some risks, make things happen, um, you can do exceptionally well. And you know, that's an amazing business, you know, 12,500 people um who really are great ambassadors for the country. I just love the New Zealanders. I mean, I thought we just we'd we had to such a fun time, you know, and we had to face up to some really hard decisions, you know. When I joined the New Zealand wasn't in as good a shape. Um, they'd done some really good things, um, but you know, commercially we didn't have money to buy new aircraft and you know, you know, a bit like we sometimes in New Zealand we didn't have enough money to buy all the infrastructure we want. Um, you know, and you had to clean up the financials so that you could make the investments you needed to open up new routes and to and to grow the company. And man, we went, we went on a massive growth mode in my time, and um we opened up new markets everywhere, we got new aircraft, we um did some really cool things, really cool things. I'm very, very proud of that.
SPEAKER_01And when did entering politics first become a serious thought for you? Was that something you were looking at when you were in America, or you know, was that only once you sort of were back in New Zealand?
SPEAKER_00No, I actually had always thought about it, you know, to be honest with you. Even if you met me as a teenager, I was sort of politically aware. I wasn't a deep partisan, but I uh, you know, with respect to uh but I would I did some political science at university um at a as a minor. Um but I you know again through the reading of books and stuff, you know, one of my books I really enjoyed reading was the Fitzgerald's and the Kennedys, which was a story of the Kennedy family. And what I really admired about that family was just generation after generation of public service in terms of um, you know, how how they did that. Uh, and so you know, that it was always something I wanted to do at some point. I thought I could do at some point in my life, but I had a very strong desire that I would only do that once I'd done and achieve some other things and I could bring something to that political experience. I didn't ever, I had no desire to be a career politician and follow a route, which is, you know, leave university, come to Wellington, be a staffer, become an MP, become a minister, become a prime minister. I wanted to go out and do some things and achieve some other things and then see whether I had something to offer in politics. I was very fortunate because you know, John Keith was one of my best mates, um, and we became very good friends um when I came back from New Zealand. And, you know, we would talk very regularly when he was prime minister, and I was CEO of E New Zealand and as mates. Um and so I had a very good insight as to how John, what what the reality of the job was, you know, even though um, you know, I'm I'm actually after John, the person who got to become Prime Minister the fastest from when I arrived in Parliament to be Prime Minister was three years. It was very, very quick. Uh and in the middle of that, you know, was a COVID lockdown and a few other challenges. But but so but so even though I got there fast, I felt like I had good visibility to the job. Um, I'd even seen Jacinda Ardurn up close doing the job because I chaired her business advisory council for a period of time. Uh and so I sort of knew what I was getting into. And there hasn't been too many surprises really. Um uh but yeah, so so and I think a lot of actually my past experience of those extreme jobs, frankly, you know, prepared me well for it, even if it wasn't a conventional career path, you know, to get, you know, in the sense I haven't been in politics all my life. I think a lot of what I learned was transferable into a political life. You know, when you take a poorly performing business and you have to turn it around, um, there are principles of that that are of leadership that are very similar. Um, you know, like you need to be very clear with your team as to what you're asking them to deliver and to do. You need to, you know, um engage with them in those ways. So there's a there's a lot that's similarities, there's a lot that's very different as well. You know, let's be honest. It's you know, you may have been very good at playing rugby. Now you've got to get very good at playing soccer, you know, and some of the principles of the coaching and the leadership is similar, but actually there are skills that are different. And um, and that's the doubt, you know, that's that's what you see me do. I mean, you know, you make mistakes along the way, all your mistakes are public because there's 24-7 media coverage of stuff. But I've always believed, you know, that you've got to step out of your comfort zone, try new things. And I don't want to get to 90 looking back saying, I wish I'd tried to make some offer of public service because I believe in the country so much and I love the country so much, and I want it to be so much better, and I want it to realize its potential. I want my kids and my grandkids to to love being part of this country and have a great future. And so that's my motivation for coming into it five or six years ago. So um, yeah, so it's pretty, pretty special job.
SPEAKER_01It's hard to imagine you putting your feet up. You seem just so driven. What do what do you think um post politics life looks like for you whenever that happens?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh I mean there's a whole bunch of things I'll want to do after that, after this gig eventually as well. I mean, at the moment you don't think too much about it because it's just go, go, go. And I think the thing is, I think I learnt in life and from the leaders that I've studied, and I've I've met some amazing people, some incredible leaders. And the best leaders I've learned is probably two things. One is you've got to have a huge connection to mission and purpose. You know, you can climb a ladder in a career and you know, in and elevate and get from one job to another and be moving up a ladder. But what's the point of it if you if you find out you've just climbed the ladder on the wrong wall, if it's not what you want to be doing, right? So you've really got to start with what's my mission and purpose. And I'm just relentlessly focused on this is in, this is gonna be the best country on planet Earth. We've got so much going for us. But damn it, we are gonna realize our potential. And yes, we have to make some tough choices, and yes, we have to sort some things out and fix some things and plan for a future and build that out better. But that's what I get out of bed for. I don't, that's why I don't get too bent out of shape around media commentary or social media or whatever, because you know, if I'm not connected to mission and purpose, you know, um, you can get very horribly bounced, you know, around and moved around by the noise around you. But the vested leaders I've also met have massive amounts of connection to mission and purpose. But they've also been personally very humble and at a personal level, and then massive determination for their cause, their country, their company, their community organization, whatever it is. And I think, you know, I've met a lot of egomaniacs in my life, but they're not nearly as good of leaders because it's all about them rather than the cause. Um, so for me, that's where the energy comes from. Um, and then likewise, you know, it's a big world out there, and there's so much more things that you want to do, you know, after politics, and there'll be a whole lot of new things, and a lot more of that will be spending time with Amanda. But um, you know, um, yeah, there's a whole bunch of things I'll do. But I just don't, when you when you're when it's 24-7, you just sort of like, I'll go as long as I can or as hard as I can and enjoy the experience. Um, yes, it's an incredibly challenging and difficult job, um, but it's also an incredibly rewarding job because you get to see amazing Kiwis up and down the country every week, just doing incredible things, being good parents, starting a business, stepping up in their community. Um, yeah, it's a real privilege. It's a real privilege to do the job. So, I mean, yeah, very cool.
SPEAKER_01Apart from spending time with your family, if you had a bit more time just for yourself, what what would you do?
SPEAKER_00I would really like to become a much better fisher, you know, like um I'm with you there. Yeah, Amanda and I go out together and fish together. Uh and suffice to say, you know, my neighbours are not particularly concerned that I'm emptying the stocks of snapper and the white matar. But um, but you know, but we we're we're enthusiastic, but we're enthusiastic amateurs, put it that way. So I'd like to get better at that. Um, I think, you know, just it's just it's actually time with people, right? Um, I'm a big extrovert. So, you know, when you think about extroversion, that's not just about, it's actually about how you process information. And so I need to have a lot of people stimulation. I get, you know, Amanda will always joke when she first, you know, when we first went on one of our dates, I filled up my old Riley Elf Mini and I came back to the drive the car away and I said, Oh honey, you won't believe that guy's did it. Because I always like hearing people's stories, you know, it's just how I was sort of that's what stimulates me, and it's very, I find it very interesting. I can be out of function, and as an extrovert, I'll come home and I'm wired, whereas Amanda's exhausted, you know, like uh, and and that's just about not about our gregariousness or our socialising, it's actually about how you process energy. So, you know, it'd be always involving people, and um, and that's where I get energy from. So I'd like to a lot more concerts, I'd probably get a lot more sleep, um, hang out with the kids. Um and then why don't I go do some fun things and some interesting things as well and about what more you could do after that. But we're a long way away from that.
SPEAKER_01Do you have any final words, anything you'd like to leave farmers with before we finish up?
SPEAKER_00No, look, I just am a huge admirer. You know, I really am, and I hope they've got a sense of that from when I took over the leadership of the National Party. Just, you know, I just love this sector. I think it's um so fascinating. I think there's so many facets to it. Uh, I'm so proud of the performance of it. Um, I want them to know they've got a government that's backing them. You know, we're doing our job of trying to create new, you know, new, open up new trade markets, get rid of the regulatory red tape so they can crack on and get on and do what they need to do. It's a tough job. You know, there are many parallels in the conversation you and I've just had that I think are the same things that farmers, family farming families go through as well, is you know, you've got massive extreme jobs, uh pressures that come in that uh you can't always control what's happening. Uh, and so how you respond to those moments. And, you know, one of the things I've learned earlier in my life was there's all this stimulus that comes at you. There is always, in spite of how hard it may be, how difficult it is, there's a moment between stimulus and response where you get to choose how you're gonna respond to things. And I see farmers do that incredibly all the time. And I just think, you know, the work of rural support and the way they're supporting each other. Um, yeah, it's just yeah, just just huge admiration. I think there's huge positivity. I think we should be very confident out there. There's a massive world of opportunity for all of us. And the question is, are we gonna go to a to a growth mindset and um and fire up and go smack it and go get it done out there in the world with some enthusiasm, some ambition, positivity, can do, aspiration, which I think is what we want uh and can do, uh, and make life better for ourselves, our families, and our communities. And that's that's exciting. I mean, that's just so energizing that we can change uh how it is and if we choose to do the work, make some tough decisions and uh then crack on and get it done. And um, yeah, I think we've got a great future. And so um, but just a thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Prime Minister, thank you so much for your time today. Really, really appreciate it. I know I can't imagine how busy you are, and you've given us a decent chunk of your day to share your story with our listeners. I know farmers are really going to appreciate getting to know where you come from, the experience that sit behind your leadership and uh just the man that you are. So thank you so much and just wish you all the best for the rest of the year.
SPEAKER_00Well, likewise, Ben, thanks for your time. Thanks for what you're doing, telling these stories too. And um, certainly think it's probably gonna be the most enjoyable meeting I'll have all day. So I appreciate it, mate. It's okay. Good.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the Federated Farmers Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or review. That really helps others to find the show. We'll be back soon with another conversation about the people issues and ideas shaping rural New Zealand. Thanks for listening.