And I'm here with Anthony Topp. Thanks for coming on, Toppy. What's going on, man? It's good to see you, brother. Mate, why don't you just tell us where you're at in life? Married, not married, what's your deal? What are you working as? You know, what's Anthony Topp at the moment?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I uh I live in Palm Beach, beautiful Palm Beach, uh married to a lovely wife. Yeah. Life at the moment just seems like a lot of work, just with work and trying to get it, just trying to get a bit of church in on the weekends. But yeah, it just feels like if I feel tired, man. Yeah, just working and that takes its toll on me. And I think I'm going through my own sort of yeah, like a love-hate relationship with work as well. So, but yeah, I I'm an engineer, so uh geotechnics, so that's like earth sciences. Is that like slope stability? Yes, found uh foundations, yeah, soil, so soil testing, like drilling boreholes and investigating and sort of determining the strength of rock and soil or other properties that it has. Yeah, because soil does all sorts of weird stuff and project management, like we will sort of manage a project where we'll go do 100, 200 boreholes, so it's like millions of dollars worth of work, and then you got lots of you got subcontractors and then engineers, and you're trying to like manage all these moving pieces, yeah, and sort of been I've sort of just stepped out of team sort of team lead role. So um it was just full on. It's in the and and it's just been it's been busy in the construction industry, sort of civil, and we work in roads, bridges, hot high rises, and stuff like that. Um, and there's just been it's just been so much work.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, it's crazy. You guys aren't responsible for that that place on the way to your house that's fallen down the hill, are you? Which one's that? You know, near the service station on the way on KP McGrath there on the way to Parley?
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's a few, yeah, there's a few things that, yeah, nah, it's that's not us. We we I hope not. Yeah, no, we don't do a lot of residential stuff. It's more the big commercial. Yeah, it's so it's just so messy. You have so many people you're you're you're responsible to. Yeah. Like, you know, you do one house, another house, another house, another house. There's so much you gotta do a lot of work to make a small amount of money, kind of thing. So now the big the big gigs would be good. Get on a major, major road, like we got light rail, Kuma connector, and those things are just like constant work and gee, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Um and the pressure of having like public timelines as well. You've got people on your backwise and this done yet.
SPEAKER_01:It's actually easier. It's it's when there's a public timeline, yeah. When you're working on the like state government sort of stuff, yeah. It's it's actually a bit easier because there's a lot of profession there's engineers running the that's their side of that stuff. You're dealing with engineers, and then so everyone sort of knows what's going on, kind of thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So for Utopia, you've pulled off an engineering degree, and though it's a grind, you're in a good company, which is a blessing. Well, life, although it's hard, it's still living the Australian dream, I guess. What about 10 years ago, 15 years ago for Utopia? What's your life like back?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, it was a different, totally different story back then. Uh running a mark. So you didn't grow up around church culture or Christianity or anything? Nah. Never went to church. I think I went to like a midnight mass on Christmas with my grandma when I was like six or I was I was a young fella. Yeah, that's normally for people's first introduction to church is a favor for grandmother.
SPEAKER_02:In the middle of the night as well.
SPEAKER_01:So boring. Yeah, and then yeah, exactly. I want to be in bed, you know. But um, yeah, I I grew up in Brizzy, so yeah, my sister and I, we sort of went off. We we run a mark. Okay. We're in Brisbane here, Northside, Southside. But like Goodner and Westside or uh not Goodner, uh like Kenmore, so it's it's not a bad area. Oh, Kenmore's alright, yeah, yeah. It's not a bad area, but there was a heap of there still was a few scalliwags getting around. Yeah, scaly wags are in every suburb, aren't they? Better things to steal in Kenmore.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, pretty much, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I ended up obviously getting into drugs and that from quite a young age. Yeah, okay. Sort of started smoking weed, and I I never really I was against it for a moment, and then I wasn't.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I mean? I think um sort of 13 or 14 maybe first started smoking weed. My mates from school were getting into it, and it was just went from that to trips, speed. Speed was sort of the thing back then, I guess, not not ice like you hear nowadays.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, ice hadn't been invented yet, eh?
SPEAKER_01:Nah, it was that's like a newer thing, but um, yeah, like eckies and then and then I just I love drugs, man. Like it just took to it like a moth to a flame, I guess, and um got under the heroin and just ended up like completely out of control, you know. Cause I I never I just got into it so young, yeah, I missed all that sort of formative years of life where you like get a job at Maccas and like get finish school and you know, maybe get a trade or go to go to uni. I was just like this young kid who just like was hanging around with like I was I was a bit of a bit of a scallywag and all my other mates were scallywags, so we all sort of went we all went down this path. Like there was a lot of us, yeah. Um and man, like was just got caught up in that, and that was uh and it caused me a lot of caused me a lot of pain, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:With with that, Anthony, so how like was it a quick progression? You said it was fast from weed to the next to the next to the next. What would you say the biggest leap was from say weed to speed, or was it when it became needles? Like what was the biggest kind of leap? Because I know I grew up in around drugs as well, and weed and LSD were really common. Yeah. And then also ecstasy, but then we all so my little group stayed in that realm. We were all too scared to jump to needles or anything like that. Uh part of it was there was we were at a party one day. It's funny the things that you look back on and go, you know, that was a bit of a door closed for me. And uh, and there was this guy at the party, and he was shooting up, and he went through his vein and all this blood splurted all over the place. And I got a really weak stomach. Like, I can't see needles. Like, even with our own kids, when they got vaccinated, I had to wait out in the waiting room because I'm like, Jess, you've got to do this yourself. So for me, that was like that was like when I thought, oh, this is too far for me. But what was it about that? Did it become appealing? Was it the fear? Was it the culture? What is it that took you to the furthest level?
SPEAKER_01:So I've sort of unpacked this like the last couple of years because I've been going uh see a counselor about it, and I've been and just like looking into a lot of stuff because it's sort of like you know, without doing a uh uh an assessment of my my youth, I guess, my upbringing, I could probably come to I used to come to the conclusion that my upbringing wasn't too bad. Um and I just went off the rails. I just got into drugs and drugs bad, and you know. But um I think I've sort of started to realize, you know, I I was a sort of mum and dad were quite off in their own own world, I think. Um they had sort of their own stuff going on in their marriage and just emotionally uh like unavailable, and we were sort of let let to left to our own devices, different era too. I think it was a lot more common, but like literally no supervision from like the age of three kind of thing. So I got left at my grandma's house when I was a kid, and they were working on that, and sort of um just uh you know, I sort of like she had uh she was like a World War II survivor, had arthritis all through her body and couldn't move. So like we were just like running around and takes after us with that, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Not the most secure um bodyguard, really.
SPEAKER_01:So and then so I don't know, like I was always getting into trouble, man. I just felt like I was always getting into trouble, and from that, I'd you sort of build your identity out of what you're good at, you know what I mean, as a young fella or a young girl or whatever, like whether it's sport, academics, whether it's you know, for girls, whether they're beautiful or whatever, they sort of somewhat get like attention out of it, yeah, and then that sort of fulfills their set self-worth to some extent. And I just found like the only attention I ever got was like getting in trouble. I actually, and so I had nothing like I never got told I was good at anything, except I knew I was good at getting into trouble. I ran with it, you know what I mean? Like I literally ran with it because that was like it seems insane, right? Like, but that was what I actually found like I was good at, and so I went to the full extent of like I'm just gonna be this drug dealer.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and like you made an admission before that I don't think enough people who've used drugs admit, but you loved it. Like it is fun, it was it wouldn't be addictive if it wasn't fun, yeah. Like, you know, and if it didn't have the immediate gratification and you know, the fleshly satisfaction. Yeah, like it you you don't I'm not gonna get addicted to a a box of tomatoes because there's no fun eating tomatoes. Do you know what I mean? Like you get addicted to the things that release adrenaline and you know it's like even food or whatever, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Things that give you dopamine hit or drugs are like the the the apex of that.
SPEAKER_02:I mean it's yeah, and you say you went full tailed into it. I didn't realise you dealt as well. Was that to fund being able to buy more?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that was like my goal. That was sort of like my my my goal was to like my aspirations when I was in all of that was like I'll just become this big drug dealer and make all this money because I was kind of I've always kind of been business minded and um but I just man, like I just couldn't my habit sort of I did all right at times, like kind of all right, like I'd get a bit of money up, like 10, 20 grand or something, yeah, and then but like I just use more drugs than I could sell kind of thing, and yeah, and I guess because the quantities are there because you're supposed to sell it, but because it's there, the temptations increase and you take it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you build up a tolerance. So yeah, so that was sort of that was I think that was that was it. It was like I'm this bad person, yeah. Really, I'm saying it kind of simply, but it was more like oh I'm the you know, like I'm like the hectic criminal, like I was doing a lot of crime stealing and stuff like that, and then the drug dealing, and everyone looked up to me and thought I was fully hectic because all my mates were doing similar stuff, yeah. So I was getting asked, I was getting like praise for all the wrong things, man.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, no, and like you said, if you're looking at for something to build your identity on, yeah, you know, the praise of people does have that, and people saying toppies, you know, toppies off the hook, and all there is a certain amount of satisfaction we can glean from that. Yeah, I resonate, man. Okay, so how long did you stay in that pattern, Anthony? I think it's 13, 14 years, man. Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, heroin addiction? So, well, 13 years of heroin addiction, yeah. Wow, I was addicted to heroin when I was 15. No way. I got into it pretty young, and there's a bunch of my mates in in my around my area, and we all dropped out of school on that, and then yeah, I mean, once you start taking that stuff, man, it sort of takes a grip of your life pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_02:So w without dealing to fund it, how else do you fund such an expensive habit? Like you mentioned stealing and stuff. Is that where it ends up?
SPEAKER_01:Stealing, breaking into houses, robbing people, yeah, yeah, doing all that sort of stuff, and then you know, like yeah, it was on the center link, so I at least had like doll, which would get you through like a day or two, yeah, you know, and then um yeah, just running a mark.
SPEAKER_02:Mate, I've never used or bought heroin, so what are we talking in terms of a daily usage? Like how much funds uh heroin at?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so I and back then, so this is sort of late 90s, uh two oh the 50 bucks you'd get you to stop you being sick. I don't know what it's like now.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, but 50 to stop you being sick, but how much for like a night out with the boys?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you wouldn't have a night out, but like it uh just depends, man, where you're getting your gear from, you know. If you got it totally depends, like it was seasonal. There was sort of like well, in the in the early 2000s, there was a big drought of heroin through like I think the whole of Australia, and it was just like yeah, it was really it went from really good quality to really low quality. So you're spending a hundred, two hundred bucks just to get high. And then that's sort of uh yeah, but like in the 90s and that 50 hundred bucks, you know, okay get you pretty stone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So that adds up, especially you know, half a weight, sort of I'd say half a grand was sort of up for the most of it, like through the through the sort of 2000s, I sort of got clean in 2010. So through that, you know, North to 2010, you know, I was probably 200 bucks. Yeah, but to spend a couple hundred bucks, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Each time does add up. And was that always needles, Anthony? Like is yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then I got into uh doctor shopping as well, so trying to get like um well, I sort of got into the benzos, but like finding people who had like back pain and stuff like that, and also like trying to get their morphine and things like that. So that was another thing.
SPEAKER_02:So when when you get a benzo if you've been on heroin, is that disappointing or does it still have the same effect? I've had benzos when I've hurt my back and that, and I I've been like more for like anxiety, right?
SPEAKER_01:So if you got you're anxious about something, go to the doctor, they'll give you Valium.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so that's that family.
SPEAKER_01:That's that family, right? Xenex. So I got on the Xenax, that was a thing. So then but in combination, yeah, they worked really well. So you take uh a couple of Xenex, you know, take heroin, the combin or a couple of Xenax, even you know, mix it with alcohol, whatever, I mix it with other pot, whatever you get more stoned kind of thing. So but it was like, yeah, it was just all sort of just it just became trying to shut myself off, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, interesting timing, you know, 13 years ago is when you got off and you'd been on for 13 years. Like 13 years is a decent season.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is, mate.
SPEAKER_02:Like that's giving it a good nudge. Like you would have experienced the highs and lows and the all the intricacies and the nuances and all different seasons. I'm sure you probably lost friends in the process.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, dude. You know, you know, a life's like man, you can have falling outspeed, and yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:With that season, was it ever a desire to get out? Or I know you entered it loving it, but during that, was it ever like, man, this is starting to get long in the tooth? Like, get sick of robbing people, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Man, it a hundred percent. And that's in with my story, I just felt like I felt like I was in hell for probably a few years before you know, like 07, 08, 09. It was hell, man. Like I like my tolerance was so high that I wasn't even getting the buzz that I wanted to get off the drugs, and that was just causing so much chaos in my life, you know. Like, yeah, I just become like, you know, just a loser, you know what I mean? Like it was but I was addicted and I didn't and I and I I just didn't think I could give up, you know what I mean? Yeah, but I hated it at the same time. Yeah, so it had to be a little bit more than that. Yeah, it's kind of like hell, man. Like I th I just imagine that's what what hell would be like to some extent.
SPEAKER_02:Like and the pain won't end, and you wake up and the day's there again.
SPEAKER_01:So much when you get it, it doesn't even do anything for you, and all the pain you have and all the stuff you have to do to get it, yeah, and all the chaos, and yeah, you know, just being like, yeah, just uh outcast, you know what I mean? Because I'd burnt so many bridges and I was just you know just yeah, just become a scumbag, you know what I mean? Really, like probably the best way to put it. And yeah, I and so I had that, which was good. I think was a good sort of you know, leading up to me getting clean, like I just wasn't enjoying it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I did it was it's I had hadn't I'd had a long enough period of just being going through hell really every day that when I finally got it out of my system and the withdrawals went away and that, um I was like, man, I don't I'm so I don't want to go back to that. Yeah, wow. Like I couldn't think of anything worse. Really? Okay, so hell was so bad. Yeah, so that's like literally what I think of when it's like no matter how much pain I'm in and that, and I think of like I could go do this or I could go do that, I'd rather be in all the pain, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Like, bro, so tell us about that. So you you know you started to have a disdain for the life and a desire to become clean, but that's easier said than done. Yeah, you know, like getting off heroin's no easy feat after a decade and a bit. How did that process begin for you, man?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the the thing that really accelerated it was uh there's a f there's a few things that were leading up. Um I had a mate who used to be my drug heroin dealer when I was 15, yeah, and he he went to jail. In when he was in jail, he he grew up in church. Okay, so he repented, man, because he was one of the most hectic people I knew. He was like the biggest, he was he was for the real deal, you know what I mean. Like he was a real deal, like speed cook, heroin dealer, a massive drug habit, like thousands of dollars a day drug habit. Like and he got like he did end up doing three, four years for cooking speed. In that time, he became a Christian, come out, and when he got out of jail, I was like trying because I was sort of at that stage, I was sort of trying to get like I had a bit of cash and I wanted him to cook cook this speed, right? Make more money. This is like how my brain worked back then, and he was like Nah man, like I'm I'm off it. I'm like I'm going to church now, and and he's like, Jesus has like set me free. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, whatever, you know, like cool man, like that that's cool. But he was he was uncorruptible from that point.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. So he wouldn't.
SPEAKER_01:He had a massive, he had a he he was like legit. It wasn't like oh, you know, I'd smoked a couple of cones and I'd gave my life proper deal on it. Now it's like he was yeah, he was like someone I knew well, yeah. And so I was I was like, you know what I mean? Like I was Jesus thing, especially because you didn't grow up hearing that sort of stuff, you know. And so and so he would evangel, like I catch up with him every now and then, but he was legit like going to church, had uh starting a young family, got the missus, getting married, um, getting his life back on track. And we'd catch up and he'd always preach to me. He's like, dude, if you you know, because he'd be like, dude, what are you doing with yourself? And I'd be like, I don't know, I want to, you know, like I'd be like, I want to get off this. I'm sick of being addicted, and that because I was in that, I was in that phase I was just talking about. Um, yeah, you need to give your life to the Lord and He'll sort all that stuff out. And so he'd take me to church and and like I'd go to him when I was just fed up. And he was always always had an open door, you know. Yeah, and I was like this ratty junkie, you know what I mean? Smoking white ox with rat's tails and just feral, you know. Probably had a showering every two days or whatever, you know, just gross. And he'd take me to church and then take me out for lunch, and just whenever I had all this stuff going on, he was like there for me. But that went on for a few years, right? I just was still I'd go there and then I'd be like, no, no, like I'd try and get clean at his house, and then I'd go back, and it was sort of this battle, you know what I mean? And um that was going on in the background, and then mum and dad, I'd always like they'd always sort of buckle and let me move back into their house when when like you know, something it was always some drama going on. And they they got they just got fed up with it. They kind of enabled me a lot through my through my addiction, like just you know, and I don't think that helped. Uh, and then they would just like cut all ties with me and like got uh like called the police, got DVO orders and stuff, and so I couldn't even go around to their house, and they every time like so there was a period when I'd go to their house, they'd call the police on me, and they just really like drew like firm boundaries. So like I didn't have that plan there, although I never wanted to go back there. I sort of my my lifestyle forced me into it, and so that that sort of comment that all come to a head where I tried to go back to their house, they called the police on me, they did it twice in a row, so like I ended up in the watch house like twice in like a few days, yeah, kind of thing, and I'm like with the police getting bashed by police or whatever, and then ending up in the watch house going clean cold turkey, you know what I mean? Because I didn't have anything, yeah. And so I'm withdrawing and I and the second time I was like looking like I'd go on remand, kind of thing, because I was getting I was always getting into trouble for stuff, and so I was in the Roma Street watch house and I'm thinking, oh, they're they're not gonna give me bail. And I rang my mate, and I was like, because the the lawyer's like, oh you you you need to get bailed to an address, you can't just get bailed on your own. Okay, you know, you can't just get bound on your own, you need to actually have an address, and I didn't have mum and dad's and so I I rang my mate and he's like coming into court, you know, didn't he like he was getting on with he wasn't doing all that stuff anymore. He's come to court and he's like, Yeah, your honor, I'll let him get bailed to my house. And then I got bailed to his house, and and he was like, Dude, you need to go to rehab, yeah. And he was like, You can stay here, get clean, like detox, but as soon as you detox, I'm taking you down to this re Christian rehab. You you you gotta go in there, dude. I'm not gonna like you. That's where you gotta go. So we were kind of out of options, hey. Yeah, and I was like, but I but I over those few years of him taking me to church and stuff, I'd start like I'm trying to explain a lot of stuff, you know. It's hard to give a lot of context to it, but like I developed the faith, yeah, because I always had him being I'd seen his journey, you know what I mean? I knew like it was it was real, like I it was hard to deny where he was and the fruit of his life and where he's come from, yeah, and he was worse than I was, you know what I mean, and then and then like I b started to believe in God and and Jesus, and so I started to have the I was praying, and I think you know what I was praying for God to like set me free from it, but what God was doing, I believe, when I look back, as he was just shutting every door I had that was like a that kept me going in that lifestyle, yeah. And so I ended up in uh he was like because he was Christian and that is he knew about transformations, and he's like, This is like a Christian discipleship. You pray every day, you go to church, they help you like get you know get back on track. And he so he took me down to transformations at um at Monaco Street, yeah, and so I did all the assessment, I was so sick, man. I was like so you were still withdrawing at that time? Oh dude, like I was it was the like I was so sick, man. It was it like and that that that journey, even just getting off all the stuff I was on, was like the most painful thing I've ever been to. I've heard it's horrendous, yeah. And so I had this going cold turkey off like a lot, I had a lot of stuff in my system, so it was it was months, you know, it took months before I stopped having withdrawal symptoms, but and you wouldn't have been able to do like a methadone program or anything because it wasn't so I I'd come off the methadone, so I this this is the journey, like I was on all that, and then I got onto the spuprenorphine and I was taking that, and then like and then I just went cold turkey off as quite a decent dose. He's like full Pentecostal prone and tongues of eating. Just like I nearly died, dude. Like I ended up in hospital, yeah, uh having seizures and stuff just from the drugs coming out of my system. And so, and so it was like this, it was hell, yeah, yeah. Like, and so that's the other when I was sort of saying I don't when I look back, like I was gonna I went through hell, like yeah, that was like the icing on the cake, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so once I got that, like once I sort of got a few months into being like drug free, I was like, man, I I can't, I can't, I don't think I could like if I ever went back to that, I don't think I'll ever be able to do it again. You know what I mean? I don't think I'd ever be able to give up again. Like I don't think I could do it again, it's too hard, you know? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Wow. So in the discipleship program, how long did that go for?
SPEAKER_01:So transformations is a 12 month program.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Minimal.
SPEAKER_02:12 months, that's pretty intense.
SPEAKER_01:So it's it's minimum. So there's a there's a curriculum and there's rules and there's expectations of, you know, you can't just go in there and remain unchanged for 12 months, and then that, you know, like they sets they set bars, you know, as like it's a smaller bar, and then a then you've got to jump over a higher bar and a higher bar in terms of how you're I guess going on your journey. It's like the rehabilitation aspect of it. Um, so it's it's a 12-month minimum, and I did it in 13 months. So gee, that's pretty amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So they've got curriculum as in things to overcome hurdles and stuff, but then there's the faith element as melt as well you mentioned before. There's lots of prayer meetings and church.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it's based out of you know what I guess the Bible would say is uh, you know, I guess a man or a woman of God would do. You know what I mean? So it's faith-based, which is, you know, it's just but it's it's good old-fashioned manners, and you know, um, really, if you boil it all down, like that's pretty much you can say it's biblical, but like, you know, it's good old-fashioned manners, like respecting people, not getting angry and losing it at people and uh telling the truth, you know, being reliable. Okay. Just like character formation stuff.
SPEAKER_02:You know, that's cool. Well, I guess if you've been living like that for 13 years, a lot of those you know, habits might have been lost along the way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know? Oh. Like I can imagine there's big rules on stealing each other's stuff or any of that. Even Siggies or steal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's like a that's a big that's an instant um uh like you'll get you'll get evicted out of the program for stealing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because it's not just the the act of stealing, but it's also triggering past actions, I guess, and re reliving who you were, not who you are, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're not getting rehabilitated, you still continue on in that stuff. So did you get any evictions? Like did you go through the first go? I did uh so you so you got four stages, and so you get leveled up for stage every three months if you've done the curriculum. So there's you gotta read books, you've got to write reports, there's okay, there's certain there's certain things you need to do, like there's there's learning courses and things like that. Um, and so I got set back a couple a month. Okay, so yeah. So a month, yeah, but not actively. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I was gone back a month, which is not too bad for for it's not too bad. I did alright.
SPEAKER_02:No, that's actually really that's actually quite miraculous. And I mean, even the environment's conducive to pressure, like a bunch of men in one house, you know, or from different streets, man. Yeah, isn't it is it primarily people who were living on the streets or addiction?
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, I mean I say that and I say that more like uh No, but but living the life like living just just yeah, got well mostly like thugs, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I imagine there's guys like yourself who are successful and go 13 months and other guys who last 16 minutes and they're out the door. Literally, yeah. Because that's really comfortable.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe maybe yeah, some guys do a few hours, some guys a lot of guys do a night, yeah, you know, a few days, yeah, yeah, a few months.
SPEAKER_02:I guess the desire for change has to be so great, hey? Like, you know, you mentioned it was hell. I think in order to change, we've got to hate our past circumstance enough to leave it, or love the future enough to change what we're in at the moment. You know, you've got to have a bigger desire for the future or a great disdain for the past. I I think so. Yeah. I think that's the biggest motivation. You know what I mean? I think it's amazing too, just seeing God's hand chasing you through this too. Yeah. Like having that that that person, whoever he is, God bless them. You know, someone who can keep pitching up to their friend for two years and still let him sleep on the couch and keep chasing and eventually pull him out of prison and put the hard word on, mate. This is the end for you. You know, it's time to get off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's time to go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, still, still speak to him to this day, you know. So yeah, he messaged me the other night.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he's on the Christmas card list, that's for sure. And so, okay, so you finished the program. What happens for you then?
SPEAKER_01:I really uh didn't know what I was doing with with my life at that stage. I sort of spent, you know, that 13 months uh just trying to get through the that program, you know, it was really hard. And I sort of finished up there, and then it was I just wanted to get out of there, dude. I was like, some people don't have I I was like I was so over it by the time that the just in all honesty, like I I wanted to get away from it. I just wanted a break. I wanted freedom because it's so many, there's so many rules, and like they had to be that way because it was like we're uh you know, we're such we try and extort every little bit you give us an inch, we would take a mile, kind of deep holes every, you know what I mean? So it's like there's no inches, and that but like doing that for 13 months gets on the nerves, you know what I mean? So I just wanted to like get out. So I think I um uh a guy from our church that I was going to at so is attached to one of the local churches. A guy from our church had a place and I I rented a room for him and so and then I was renting with another guy who was ex-transformations, and um he I lived with him for a bit, but he he sort of was doing my head in a little bit, maybe, and I don't know. It was I didn't have a car, like I didn't have a license or anything like that, and uh ended up moving in with Sammy Sordom. Oh yeah, nice yeah, so he's a great guy, and so I was just trying, I guess yeah, I was I was started living with people from church who were good people, you know what I mean? And Sherhausen, uh, and I I needed to find I I I was looking for what to do for the next it's kind of a weird period. I just felt like I'd I had to do something, you know what I mean? Like I couldn't just stagnate, yeah. Yeah, so it was like I I do I get a job or do I go to school or what do I do? I need to I need to build something, you know, and um yeah, I ended up working for a guy from our church um who had an engineering company, and I was like I had no work skills. Like I dropped out of school year nine.
SPEAKER_02:That's right, and you'd been on the GIS 13, 15.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, now didn't know how to use computers or anything like that. Literally, you could write like a page of writing, and there'd be like one full stop at the end. At least your pencils lasted a long time. I think my spelling wasn't too bad, but like you know, there was no punctuation. Yeah, so I was what he was like, God bless him, man. He gave me a a a start, you know what I mean? And uh, and uh I was doing that and I was like, he ended up letting me go because I was probably like one of the worst workers he's ever had. Like fairly, like, yeah. So um, but I that that was a that sort of hurt me, you know what I mean? So I was like, I need to like I need to upskill here, you know what I mean? I liked the job because I was like for for someone coming from where I was too, I was like dressing up, going to work, and it made me feel like and I was like contributing to society, and it was like coming from being this rager who had just been told his whole life that he's a rap bag as well. Um, and I was like, oh, I'm I work in an engineering office, and that sort of gave me a little bit of self-confidence, to be honest, and so I just was like, and then the this I guess getting you know let go because you you suck, you know what I mean, was like a motivating factor in me being like, Oh, I'm gonna go back to school and like and so I I think I'll do like engineering, and I sort of went back and did year 11 and 12, and I did all the maths and physics subjects, and I sort of like was seeing the like career guidance counselors and and and just they told me the path I needed to follow, and I just started like putting one foot in front of the other, and I worked, I worked my butt off, man, you know, like at that, and sort of, you know, that was a journey itself, like five, six years of study, yeah. But um, ended up, ended up, I loved it, dude. I loved going to uni. I felt like I'm like, oh, like I was reliving probably what I should have should have lived when I was younger, yeah. And I I missed all that, and uh, and I just was like, I was just dogmatic about it, you know what I mean? Like I was I was like always setting like I'm gonna study six hours today, and then I and I just kept and I'd be like, I'm gonna study seven, eight hours, nine hours, and I just keep like pushing myself to see how and it was like literally like I just need to sit down for half an hour. It started out like that. I need to sit down for half an hour and like read or try and learn something, and I got it up to like dude, I can sit down and go to work, I can sit down at work for 10 hours straight, dude. Now, yeah, Anthony.
SPEAKER_02:That's actually so miraculous. Yeah, you know, there's something that has been forged in you that knows how to push through adversity, you know. It's starting, I mean, with a lot of things in your life, but the transformation house, you know, like adhering to the script for 13 months and then you know, going back to study and seeing the big picture and getting through that. Engineering is hard. I've got engineers in my family, they're all smart cookies, and it's not an easy degree, it's not an easy field, and now you're working in one of the biggest firms on the car. Good man.
SPEAKER_01:I I uh yeah, and I think you know what? I think because I look back at that and I probably like I have that addictive nature, right? So I I could apply that to something positive, you know what I mean, and then just like which was like work and things like that, and then I found like I you know, and it's all like and I I sort of reflected on this sort of in like the last couple of years. There was all that insecurity and stuff driving me as well, so I just was trying to prove myself, you know what I mean? Whereas I'd always try to prove myself in the wrong, in the wrong areas, you know what I mean, like how bad I could be. I started to apply that to trying to prove myself and how good I could be, and it it worked, but I've sort of learned like the motivation behind all that is like just allowing like God to like me to rest that I'm alright how I am, yeah, without all the whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like without I don't have to perform because I was and also like because of my background, I was always like, I need to do really well on this test because they if they knew who I was, if they knew my story, they would reject me or you know, not want to have a bar of me. So that there was that motivation. As well, which was it's a lot of pressure to live it like I put on myself, to be honest. Yeah. Uh, and I think a lot of people who do accomplish things that are hard to do, whether it's like sport or whatever, there is some level of insecurity there that drives us to do it. You know, like if you go, you know, you look at guys who are probably really good cricketers, there's probably a point in their childhood where they lost and they uh, you know, a game or whatever, and it just didn't sit with them well. And uh whether and you know, I reckon that's probably just like a broken identity in some sort. Like it's kind of like, you know, if you you you that the pain of losing was that bad because it touched on something in your own, like inner child or whatever, that it pushed you to work so hard to never lose, kind of thing. And and that that's I I don't think that's it, it looks good and the world admires it internally. It's like just learning to to accept yourself no matter whether you're performing or you're not performing, kind of thing. Just trying to like, yeah, that's been the sort of journey I've been on. It's like it's I don't need to I I want to do, I want to push myself because I actually want to do this because I actually want to do well at it. It's not out of some insecurity or whatever that if I don't do well I'll look like you know a failure or whatever. Yeah, it's more like I want to work hard because I actually want to do well at this because I like it, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah, yeah. And because your identity is not wrapped up in it now, exactly. You know, your identity was wrapped up in a wrap bag, then wrapped up in something else. Now you're because it's wrapped up in Christ, yeah, bro. There's nothing you need to do or not do. Isn't that just something thing to grab a hold of it? Yeah, it takes time in the spirit to really let and I can imagine it's even more so with someone with your past. Like that news where you're absolutely loved, irrespective of all of that stuff, that your identity is son, that's so huge. It takes time to marinate, however.
SPEAKER_01:But that's that's part of what I think the Lord sort of offers us when we're coming out of someone from coming sort of from my background, is it's like I'd always have these moments where I'd just feel overwhelmed and and uh and I could all you know, I'd just be like praying to God like to help me through it, but it was always just like resting in you know, his grace is sufficient for me, and that he he loves me, and and it doesn't really matter, and all the stuff that I think matters so much doesn't really matter because like and and and that he gives you the opportunity and he will actually make a way for you to have a new life, where it's like the world tells you there's no way you deserve an opportunity, you know what I mean? You don't deserve an opportunity, whereas like Jesus is like you know, he he he brings you back to life, man. He gives you he opens doors, and and it's like that hope and that faith that you know he's gonna sort of despite what I've done in my past, he's gonna, he's he's got a better life for me, he's gonna give me opportunities and things like that. Yeah, if I didn't have that, it would have been very difficult to do to even put my to take that step forward to go down that path, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're it's a redemption story, yeah. You know, like you just said, I was dead, now I'm alive. It's not it's not like from bad to good, it's from dead to alive, you know. That's the that's the gospel, it's not a behavior modification program, it's it's a a life transformation, like literally from hell to heaven, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you see it, you see, you see, you know, just being involved with the transformations program, you see it. Yeah, you see so many guys, and I tell them this, and they like because I'll I go, you know, I'll speak to them and I share my own stuff. You're like, don't worry, man. Like, yeah, it's all gonna work itself out, you know what I mean. And everyone they all feel like you know, there's no there's no hope for them. Yeah, and then you see them grab a hold of that, and God does amazing things in their life, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's great to see you light up when you talk about those fellas too, because you can see you got a heart for them and you got faith for them to be changed, you know. Sometimes people write them off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, oh dude, like yeah, that's this guy, there's so many guys who've just come from you just it's just amazing, man.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. He's God's still just in the in the business of calling his children home, hey.
SPEAKER_01:Whether you don't believe in God or you think it's all a big scam or whatever, you can't deny when you see that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, when you see someone's life change. You know what I mean? What what what would you say to anyone like who's in that life at the moment, Anthony? Like it takes some for you, it took a lot of factors. God behind all those factors, I would say. Like, if someone's still in it and they're listening to this, maybe they're your friend, and they're listening because they're like, oh, toppies sharing, or whatever, what would you say to them about God's hope for them now and and what to do next?
SPEAKER_01:You need to accept Jesus and sort of make room for him to move in your life. And it it it takes sometimes a little bit of, you know, I'll do whatever it takes kind of mentality. But once you get to that point and you're like, Lord, I need you to help me, I'll do whatever you want me to do, then it's it's a matter of I think getting rid of bad influences.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So surrounding yourself with a few different people, maybe you know, the the average this is a key thing. You're the average of the five closest people to you, right? So it's you need to be if you're hanging around people who aren't up to no good and hoping to change, it's gonna be very difficult for you because you're just gonna feed off all their stuff. So you need to you need to find people who are a good influence, whether that's in a a re church, if you don't want to do any of that stuff, go to church and go out of your way to connect with people there and just trust that like I think I think hope is the key. You need to know that there and even if you don't believe it, you need to have faith to just see that you do have a future. Yeah, there's something's the a future is possible, yeah. And it's usually and even just that that little all right, I trust God, I trust that you're going to make this work out. I'll be happy for crumbs, because I feel like that's what I was. I feel like I I take crumbs, yeah. I'd just be happy not to take be on the on the gear, you know, and just be clean and not be, you know, imprisoned of that. That was like that was what I was hoping for in life in the beginning. But that little bit of hope, like God used that and he gave me, you know, like he gave me so much more than what I was would have you know sat for, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, like you would have been satisfied with crumbs and instead he rips out the banquet.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like in housing commission or whatever, just on the dole, but like free from addiction. That was probably like all I I hoped for in the beginning. That was epic. That was like so much better than where I was at, little by little, man. Like, and just need people around you to give you encouragement, man. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, absolutely, Anthony. This has been amazing chat, and I really appreciate you sharing your story. In a moment, I'm gonna get you to pray for us and the listeners if that's cool. But I just want to encourage anyone who's listening. If you know anyone in this situation that you think this podcast will be helpful for, make sure you send this to them and you know, share it around. And we don't want to just grow this podcast for the sake of growing it. I really want to get people on who have lived experience, who have been changed through faith and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Toppy, thank you so much for listening. Is there anything else you want to share, bro? No, nothing's coming to mind. Well then, mate, pray for us. We'd appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01:Father God, I just I just pray, Lord, if there's someone out there uh who needs to hear this this message, I just pray, God, that you would just light the spark in their heart, Lord. You just yeah, just give just light that fire, just that little ember of a fire that needs to burn. And I just pray, Holy Spirit, that you would um fan that flame. Whether that that is just, you know, someone's stuck in a situation that they're just you know, like I I said, uh, you know, just in hell. It doesn't have to be drugs, it can be it could be a bad relationship, it could be, you know, toxic workplace, you know, you it could be whatever, but it's hell, and it just you just wake up every day going, I don't know how I can do this. But uh, I just pray for them, Lord, that there would be an opportunity to just break free of that. Lord, that you would just help break those chains. Yeah, Lord, I just I just just thank you for everything you've done, Lord, in uh in my life. I hope this message doesn't come across like it's easy to do. It sounds like an amazing testimony, but it wasn't without hard work, pain, and suffering, fear and and and in just feeling completely overwhelmed at times. But when you trust in God and you know lean on him and not on your own understanding, that's where miracles happen. It's possible, and he comforts us in all of our trouble as well. So that your Holy Spirit would just um yeah, anoint anoint this message in Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. For more-ended conversations on faith and mental well-being. Check out SunbirdSouls.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak. Sunbird Souls is a faith-based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it. Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give, you're better off shouting a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Quack from Sunburnt Souls.