00;00;01;09 - 00;00;27;25
Dave Quak
Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. I'm Dave Quak and on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being. As a pastor that struggles with mental illness, I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of lives. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode.
00;00;28;22 - 00;00;45;06
Dave Quak
You guys are in for a great blessing. This morning we have Paul Grimmond. I'm going to hold up his book. He wrote an amazing book called When the Noise Won't Stop. A Christian Guide to Dealing with Anxiety. Paul, thank you so much for coming on Sunburnt souls this morning.
00;00;45;08 - 00;00;48;05
Paul Grimmond
Oh, David, thanks so much for having me. It's a real privilege now.
00;00;48;11 - 00;01;09;14
Dave Quak
It's definitely our pleasure. I actually came into contact with your book, so a couple of years ago, I was going through a really anxious phase in my own life. I had a friend called Rob who was walking with me through that, and we'd meet up every week, and it was an extended period. And you know, when you've got a loved one and you're like, okay, I've got to help.
00;01;09;14 - 00;01;27;19
Dave Quak
I want to resource this person. And he got your book into my hands, which is always a risk, because if you haven't read the book as well, you know, and you give someone a book, you know, it's a big risk. But it was bang on for what I needed to hear as a man of God walking with anxiety.
00;01;27;19 - 00;01;38;29
Dave Quak
And I thank God for my friend. But Paul, thank you for writing this book. Can we just start by asking what was the inspiration and why did you decide to cross this resource?
00;01;39;01 - 00;01;57;06
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, I mean, I've walked with anxiety on and off for most of my life. And I'm struggled with it in various forms. So there was a point where I was kind of just working with publishers, I'd written some other stuff, and we were talking about what to write next. But I felt a real burden for this.
00;01;57;09 - 00;02;18;26
Paul Grimmond
I've shared publicly about some of my experiences in and been involved in public ministry, and so I've actually had the privilege of having quite a number of people over the years talk to me about their own experiences and be able to sit and try and share the hope and truth of the gospel, in ways that recognize the reality that we're human creatures that live in bodies kind of thing.
00;02;18;28 - 00;02;34;09
Paul Grimmond
And I just think I felt, real that this was a timely thing as well. I mean, I wrote this due during the second half of 2020. I, said the back end of the first after the first lockdown around Covid, and there was also a lot of kind of anxiety and stuff going on for people in all sorts of ways.
00;02;34;09 - 00;02;47;08
Paul Grimmond
Right? So there like a number of things came together and I just had the opportunity and privilege of being able to spend some time thinking deeply about what the Bible's got to say and doing some broader research into some of the kind of medical stuff as well.
00;02;47;10 - 00;02;55;12
Dave Quak
Yeah. It's awesome. How was your personal experience with anxiety a long, kind of lasting experience. Have you been dealing with anxiety?
00;02;55;14 - 00;03;17;02
Paul Grimmond
Look, I mean, I had panic attacks as a teenager, although I didn't talk to anyone about them, I didn't know what they were. I had no language to describe them. I just had them and tried to kind of close my eyes and ignore them and hope it would go away. And then in my kind of, mid to late 20s and into my 30s, I had, kind of more panic attacks.
00;03;17;03 - 00;03;41;07
Paul Grimmond
I ended up being hospitalized for a while. I struggled with a severe episode of burnout. In, in ministry. Yeah. So and, you know, since then, it's been this ongoing wrestle of understanding more, trying to be faithful in the day to day stuff, depending on God, trying to live wisely. Like all things in life, it comes and go.
00;03;41;07 - 00;03;52;15
Paul Grimmond
Some days are better than others. I think overall I do a bit better than I did before. Then I would say I've learned to live with it, rather than hoping that it's going to be just completely taken away. Yeah.
00;03;52;17 - 00;04;05;28
Dave Quak
Okay. So could I ask what brought you to that resolution, like in the early days, were you all, praise God, lift this from me, but now you're living with it. How did you transition from wanting to be rid of it to knowing it's there?
00;04;06;00 - 00;04;29;02
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, I think that's a really complicated question, isn't it? I think it happened in lots of little drips and bits over time, particularly in my late 20s when I had the really severe panic attacks and ended up in hospital and had all these tests. And I ended up seeing someone who said, you know, like, what's what you're experiencing is it's anxiety, you're not unwell, there's no other health problems.
00;04;29;02 - 00;04;53;06
Paul Grimmond
This is kind of what it is. I think in that process I learned a bunch of stuff about managing myself better. But I also started to realize that I think I've got more perspective that this is what I had been living with since I was quite young, that my body was kind of wired in this way, and that had benefits as well as difficulties.
00;04;53;08 - 00;05;12;15
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. So I think it's connected. I'm, I'm quite I'm quite sensitive. So I'm quite emotionally sensitive and aware of people. And that's been a real benefit in terms of ministering to people. So I think there's all of that pieces in place. But I think for me, that little section at the end of two Corinthians where Paul talks about the thorn in his flesh.
00;05;12;17 - 00;05;13;10
Dave Quak
00;05;14;03 - 00;05;43;15
Paul Grimmond
And he kind of cries out to God three times, you know, God, please take this from me. And it's really interesting in that text that we don't get told exactly what the thorn is. We just know that it was miserable. Paul didn't like it. And he keeps crying out to God to take it away. And the the passage isn't completely clear how exactly he came to the realization, but he says, basically what I realized that God helped me to understand, and what I heard God say to me was, what you need more than me taking this away from you is learning that my grace is sufficient.
00;05;43;18 - 00;06;09;12
Paul Grimmond
That phrase for me has actually been more and more significant for me, just generally in pastoring people. Yeah. Pastoring ministry is a lot of walking with people in the mess of a sinful, broken, fallen world. Yeah. And I think over time I've realized more and more lot's of that is not stuff that gets fixed straight away, but a lot of it is trying to help people to love Jesus and walk faithfully, even when the mess is going to continue.
00;06;09;15 - 00;06;27;06
Dave Quak
Yeah, and what a blessing to have you in your role. So you're dean of students at Moore. You teach there as well, but there's hundreds of students on a formative process. You know, they got a few years there this is the time to be looking at the deeper things of life. So it's great that you can coach young people and older people through that.
00;06;27;06 - 00;06;27;20
Dave Quak
Yeah.
00;06;27;23 - 00;06;48;01
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, it really is like I'm really excited about what I get to do there, and I love being able to work with those people, and there's lots of lovely things in terms of just helping them to develop some of the awareness and the habits and stuff of resilience, training them to become aware kind of personally of what's going on emotionally and be a bit more expressive about that.
00;06;48;01 - 00;07;07;02
Paul Grimmond
That can be really helpful, helping them to find really helpful peer relationships and supervisor relationships and other things to support them. It's but it's a great encouragement. And hopefully, God willing, sharing stuff at this point in people's lives is going to allow them to have some more resources in place under God to keep going when it gets messy and tough in the future.
00;07;07;04 - 00;07;07;29
Paul Grimmond
Yeah.
00;07;08;01 - 00;07;19;10
Dave Quak
Yeah, absolutely. And if the people you're selling into, exponentially are going to be selling into others through pastoring churches and going on Mission Field, you know, the seeds selling are going to they're going to multiply.
00;07;19;13 - 00;07;21;19
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. I mean, that's my prayerful hope. I mean, God.
00;07;21;19 - 00;07;32;28
Dave Quak
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, your book was written with three, you know, groups of people in mind. Can we pull those apart? So why do you just start with the first group?
00;07;33;01 - 00;07;55;27
Paul Grimmond
I mean, well, obviously it's written first of all to people who, who suffer from kind of a clinical level of anxiety. Yeah. Just because I'm so aware, for many of them, it raises big questions often for their faith. It raises issues of what does it mean to, to honor Jesus when I feel so rubbish or when I can't do the things that I want to do, or I feel guilt and the shame of that.
00;07;55;27 - 00;08;15;10
Paul Grimmond
So I think there's a group of people who share some of my experience that I just really wanted to say, God's got some really precious, important things to say to you in Jesus. And it's okay, and God loves you. I think that was I think the second group of people is that, mental health has been a thing that our, our society has become more aware of.
00;08;15;12 - 00;08;35;20
Paul Grimmond
But nearly everybody I talk to has a friend or family member or someone that they love who's wrestling with this stuff. And so just a bit more awareness and thoughtfulness about how to be a good friend or a good supporter and encouragement and God, and then the third group is that I think lots of pastors of churches are wrestling with this stuff all the time.
00;08;35;22 - 00;08;43;17
Paul Grimmond
And so I felt like getting some clear biblical framework in place and a healthy kind of model for understanding what's going on would be useful for them as well.
00;08;43;20 - 00;09;06;01
Dave Quak
This is a big question, but what is your healthy framework around mental illness? A lot of times when I'm talking to people on this podcast so far, we've started trying to articulate a theology of the existence of mental illness. I mean, some of the, the problematic theology, that it's reciprocity or a result of the sins of your fathers and stuff seems to be dealt with, which is awesome.
00;09;06;05 - 00;09;11;19
Dave Quak
Yeah, but what what is an actual biblical perspective of mental illness?
00;09;11;21 - 00;09;37;28
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's really the thing that really struck me as I started to think about it was I, I tried to reflect deeply on how the fall has kind of affected the whole kind of nature of the world that we live in. So I think that biblically, I think books like Ecclesiastes speak to the fact there's this little phrase in Ecclesiastes where it kind of says that, you know, who can straighten what God has bent.
00;09;38;00 - 00;10;02;08
Paul Grimmond
And there's a sense in which, in response to human rebellion against him, rather than letting humanity just carry on its merry way apart from him, God has made us to live in a creation where we experience some of the mess of human fallenness and sinfulness, and a kind of cosmic level on an environmental level. Yeah. We experience that then personally and as, as people.
00;10;02;08 - 00;10;24;08
Paul Grimmond
I think that happens at two levels as well. It is as a person. I'm not just kind of a spirit trapped inside of a body, but I am actually a I'm I'm embodied. I live in a physical body that's part of this fallen world. And we all know the depths at work in this body like we, yes, sick we get, we get sick, we have bad days, we struggle.
00;10;24;10 - 00;10;45;01
Paul Grimmond
And we know that as we age, we don't recover as quickly. I get injured on the sporting field and it takes me three months. For three weeks? Yeah, all of that kind of stuff. It's just part of our experience. So there's a thing going on in my body that affects and impacts me, as well as me as a spiritual, person who's making decisions.
00;10;45;01 - 00;11;07;17
Paul Grimmond
I am a sinner. I make mistakes for me, the language, I borrowed this from CCF through the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in the US, but they talk about being sufferers and sinners, and I think that's really helpful that I live as a sufferer. I live in a fallen world where sometimes things happen, are really awful, and they contribute to mental illness.
00;11;07;20 - 00;11;30;10
Paul Grimmond
I live in a body which is physical and part of this fallen world, and so there are chemical imbalances and things that happen to my neurology and all that kind of stuff, which means that some of us are just wired in ways that we experience this more acutely or more intensely than other people. But I experience all of that, too, as a person who's in relationship with God in the world, as someone who is sinful and in need of grace as well.
00;11;30;12 - 00;11;43;23
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, but I think having those three spheres helps to give me some perspective. I don't just get anxious because I'm a sinner. I get anxious because I'm a sufferer who lives in the suffering world.
00;11;43;25 - 00;11;53;24
Dave Quak
Yeah, I like that. I like how you frame that, because it's hard to frame pull, like when you're actually trying to put language to it. It's really difficult to articulate.
00;11;53;26 - 00;11;56;25
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. No, I think that that's been a real challenge. Yeah.
00;11;56;28 - 00;12;27;29
Dave Quak
Yeah, yeah. I spoke to another guy and his language was like, hey, the potential for mental illness exists because of the full, but it's not a direct relation on the person's, engagement in sin. So the potential for sin created, is created by the full. But it's not reciprocity, I think. Yeah, sometimes the people I've dealt with have wrestled with the idea that maybe they've done something wrong and God has afflicted them.
00;12;27;29 - 00;12;30;16
Dave Quak
What do you think about that?
00;12;30;19 - 00;12;53;27
Paul Grimmond
You know, I just I think we have to be really, really careful in that space. Yeah. I mean, I think when the when the Bible talks about us experience being like, we have to be real, that sometimes we do experience direct results of just our sinful folly. Right? So, yeah, the world's made in a way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00;12;53;27 - 00;13;17;08
Paul Grimmond
And the candle at both ends. I haven't slept for the last week. Oh, all of a sudden I get sick and what I. Yeah, I think the gods wired the world in a way that that happens. But I just think that when it comes to the mental health and that that space, we're talking about much bigger and much more complex things in a direct interplay between I did something wrong here, therefore I'm experiencing this here.
00;13;17;11 - 00;13;35;19
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, I'm actually a person. John nine is really important for me. He when the when Jesus when the disciples come and ask him about the man who's been born blind and they ask him, you know, say yes, he's seen no, because his parents sinned. And Jesus says, no, it's not because any of them sinned. Yeah. This is part of living in this world.
00;13;35;19 - 00;13;59;09
Paul Grimmond
But God's done it to to enable his glory to be shown. But I think we have to have a really strong understanding. We live in a broken, full and messy world, and that affects us at a deep, deep levels and in complex ways. And so trying to create a direct connection between I seen them. If I'm experiencing this, I think that's a really unhelpful place to go most of the time.
00;13;59;10 - 00;14;18;23
Dave Quak
I agree, and it can only bring people to a place of guilt and condemnation, you know, especially in a confusing something in a in a realm that's already confusing. When I was still trying to figure out my own mental health diagnosis and was on the journey, I would have been really susceptible to poor teaching because I was just grasping at answers.
00;14;18;25 - 00;14;28;10
Dave Quak
Yeah, you know, like I was just trying to figure it out. What's going on? God, by his grace, he revealed, you know, through Scripture, a path forward for me. I just pray that's the case for other people too.
00;14;28;13 - 00;14;45;03
Paul Grimmond
Oh, totally, brother, that's so important, isn't it? Like we just we really need God's kindness and the help of other brothers and sisters to open the truth of God's Word to us and keep us from that terrible false teaching that, often piles on guilt and shame where it doesn't belong.
00;14;45;05 - 00;15;14;03
Dave Quak
Yeah, absolutely. With your role at the college, you equip a lot of students. Now, some people would say that people with mental illness are not fit for vocational ministry because especially say, okay, so in my case, I struggle with bipolar. It doesn't happen so much with me because I'm sort of in between bipolar one and two. But when you're really manic, you feel bipolar one.
00;15;14;03 - 00;15;37;26
Dave Quak
You can sometimes lose grip with reality and sometimes your psychosis seems so real, which is a scary place to be if you're in spiritual leadership. Because of the nature of spiritual leadership is obviously spiritual, and sometimes some of the psychotic episode seems spiritual. And so what's that interplay between vocational ministry and mental illness? If you don't mind me asking, Paul?
00;15;38;01 - 00;16;04;25
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. No. I mean, I think it's such an important question. I, I always want to say to people, mental health is not an automatically. It's not an automatic disqualification. I actually know lots of people who struggle with anxiety and depression and bipolar and other things who under God by his kindness have that well managed. And they've learned actually really deep, significant things about relationship with God and about the truth of Jesus work out of that.
00;16;04;25 - 00;16;28;21
Paul Grimmond
That enables them to to treat people with generosity and care and wisdom in what they do. But I do say to people, it might be a reason for some people that they choose not to go in that direction, because I think sometimes just the cost of it or the implications of managing it, or what it means for your capacity, for example, for people or what you can do.
00;16;28;24 - 00;17;00;05
Paul Grimmond
Maybe there are some roles or there are some ministries, or there are some things that you're not going to be able to do because of where they cease and how to fix you at this time. So I, I try to turn that into individual conversations with people and get them to talk to other trusted friends and advisors around about them and get feedback for themselves about how are they growing, what are they learning, what are the challenges, and how might that speak to their decision about where they might fit in terms of serving in church and and potentially leading ministries.
00;17;00;07 - 00;17;12;23
Dave Quak
I think is for us now, that's a good insight, and I think it affords the same grace to somebody with mental health issues. And not that we, you know, if we're feeling cold towards vocational ministry, all of us need a discerning process.
00;17;12;26 - 00;17;14;07
Paul Grimmond
Absolutely. Like, yeah.
00;17;14;09 - 00;17;15;29
Dave Quak
It's not everybody's goal. Right.
00;17;16;06 - 00;17;42;01
Paul Grimmond
But I do think that that discerning process is so important. Like we do say people, it's not just your decision to make. If I can put it like that, you actually you make it in relationship with God's people. Yeah. Particularly you make it in relationship with other people who have experience and wisdom. And ministry runs on the board, to actually invite them to get to know you, to watch your life and to give you feedback about how God has made you.
00;17;42;01 - 00;17;46;17
Paul Grimmond
And are you the kind of person who should be pursuing this kind of role?
00;17;46;19 - 00;17;55;17
Dave Quak
When we link back to your book, what is being people's positive feedback? Look, what have you felt within the book has hit the mark.
00;17;55;20 - 00;18;14;07
Paul Grimmond
I think it's been lots of different things. I think for some people it just the very fact that the book exists and that someone has said, hey, look, here's this, here's this real thing, and, you know, that that's really important. I think some people have really appreciated there's a little section where I do a little bit of stuff from church history.
00;18;14;07 - 00;18;34;29
Paul Grimmond
I look at people like Spurgeon than some others. We've kind of suffered through the ages. I find Spurgeon fascinating in that he he talks at a few points very rarely. And yeah, truthfully about his own experience. And he just he didn't have any of our medical categories or anything, but he just goes, do you know, this is a thing?
00;18;35;01 - 00;18;54;26
Paul Grimmond
And if you think people can just snap out of it, hey, you've never experienced and you don't understand what's going on. So it's actually helpful for us to realize, yeah, we're not the first believers in history who have had the scriptures and have had human experience and have gone. There is this awful thing that's part of an experience of the fallen world that some people wrestle with.
00;18;54;28 - 00;19;17;25
Paul Grimmond
And you can't just, you know. So I think that sense of you can't solve it. You can't just by sheer effort of will or what ever it is, get, get fixed and put your way out of it. I think that's really comforting. I've had some people who've read the book thinking about looking after others and have gone, oh, I experienced this, and I've never had a word for it.
00;19;17;25 - 00;19;48;00
Paul Grimmond
I've had I've had guys who've been in ministry for 20 years. I think I experienced this and I've never known what it was and understood it. And that's given them just some avenues to speak a little bit about some stuff and get a bit of extra help and whatever, and think I think that's been really encouraging. But I think maybe the thing that's probably hit a chord the most is that I, I talk in the book about how do you take responsibility for something that you're not in control of, which is this weird concept, isn't it?
00;19;48;00 - 00;20;16;26
Paul Grimmond
Because, yeah, I can't control it. I can't make it go away. I can't fix it. But even though that's true, my ongoing experience of people is that those who manage to live well with that are people who go, oh, this is a thing. This is a part of me. There are things that I can do that take responsibility for what I can take responsibility for in a way that I entrust myself to God and lets him continue to work in that space.
00;20;16;28 - 00;20;43;23
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. And I just think that the grace that Jesus offers in his death and resurrection is so important. They Jesus says to us, God loves you and loves you in a way that you can know with clarity apart from your circumstances. People I talk to who are wrestling with their anxiety, often just feel so ashamed. They feel like, you know, I'm struggling to get to church.
00;20;43;23 - 00;21;14;25
Paul Grimmond
How can I how can I be godly? How can I be even a Christian? Or I'm struggling to serve others, or I'm struggling to what else and feel this great sense of shame and guilt? But God says to us in Christ, I love you, and I have committed myself to your complete forgiveness and cleansing, and that language of you are my child in adoption, as God adopts us as children, you don't become part of the family while you're doing the right thing and then you get kicked out.
00;21;14;25 - 00;21;40;17
Paul Grimmond
What do you do there? I'm thinking there. Maybe you get accepted, became the family, or whatever it is when you come to know Christ and by faith coming to living relationship with God, you stand in a place of security and certainty with him. As people struggling with mental illness. That's such an important truth to hear. Yes, but also you need brothers and sisters and others around about you to keep sharing it with you and to pray with you about that.
00;21;40;17 - 00;21;46;29
Paul Grimmond
And they help you to just cling to it. Yeah. When sometimes it doesn't feel very real.
00;21;47;01 - 00;22;18;19
Dave Quak
Absolutely. I was praying with a loved one a few days ago about some of the heavier things in life, and we got to a place where we needed to pray. Let me let you love me. When it came to some of the darker places, because when we were praying it, there was a sense that if I felt and it wasn't true, obviously, that there's some areas of darkness when it comes to mental illness, that we don't want God to love us in because we don't feel like they're the lovable parts of us.
00;22;18;26 - 00;22;38;16
Dave Quak
We feel like they're the unredeemable parts or the evil parts where, like you just said, the positional righteousness. We are made right in Christ as a condition, not as a temporary state. Yeah, we've got to allow God to love us in those places, because there's no other way that those places can be redeemed other than with the love of Jesus.
00;22;38;19 - 00;22;54;09
Paul Grimmond
And there's little there's just little truths there, aren't there, that are so helpful for us to cling to. I think, like, when there are those bits that I'm afraid to acknowledge before God or that I feel embarrassed about, that I don't want to bring it into the open, like remembering God already.
00;22;54;09 - 00;22;55;17
Dave Quak
Knows.
00;22;55;20 - 00;23;26;12
Paul Grimmond
He already knows. He knows what it's like, and he knows you, and he knows that those things are there. When you tell him he's not shocked, he's not about to run around the room and shout at you. He's not actually, there's these tender compassion, with which he sits and loves his children. Yeah. And when we come and speak to him about those darker places that we experience, he's ready and willing and will treat us with incredible tenderness and kindness as we do so.
00;23;26;14 - 00;23;48;09
Dave Quak
Absolutely. I know my story is not unique here, but I didn't understand the full revelation of God's love for me until the dark times, until actually having to sit in them for a prolonged period and have him be God to me. Have him be my father ministering to me. Yeah. You know, it's a horrible way to go about it.
00;23;48;11 - 00;23;55;03
Dave Quak
Like if there was a quick pill or something, you'd take it. But but the result, you know, I wouldn't change it for anything.
00;23;55;05 - 00;24;15;11
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. And that's the interesting, isn't it, like that. You're right. Like, it feels so awful at times and you just kind of think, gee, I wish there was some other way of doing this. But I do think. I'm there isn't there's no shortcut, is there, to actually grasping the depth of the riches of the love of God in Christ Jesus.
00;24;15;11 - 00;24;51;09
Paul Grimmond
Like, yeah, it's deeper and bigger and richer and more real than anything we can begin to imagine. But it takes it takes time and suffering and difficulty. You know, there's there's that little phrase in Hebrews where even Jesus was made perfect by his suffering and exactly what that means, like, that's that's okay. It kind of feels like it's at the edges of your capacity to think about what might seem to be at least part of what it means is that Jesus, Jesus, was made into our perfect High Priest by his suffering, so that he could stand with us in compassion.
00;24;51;16 - 00;25;11;18
Paul Grimmond
He knows what it's like to suffer and experience the anguish of living life in that world. And so when I come to him and say it feels like this, or I so hate this thing, that I feel like it's part of me, or I feel so embarrassed or ashamed about this, you just know that he already knows what that's like.
00;25;11;20 - 00;25;23;08
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. And he's going to receive you tenderly and with open arms. It's so hard for us sometimes to believe it, but the Scripture is really clear that that's how God is towards us. He really.
00;25;23;08 - 00;25;28;23
Dave Quak
Loves us. Like if you read the Bible for five minutes, his love is saturating every page.
00;25;28;25 - 00;25;29;15
Paul Grimmond
Yeah.
00;25;29;17 - 00;25;52;11
Dave Quak
Yeah, he really does care. What I really liked about your book was when Rob gave it to me. The phrase was when the noise won't stop the title. And that's what at that point, it felt to me like 45 TV channels were on in my brain all the time. Yeah, I the noise wouldn't stop and I couldn't get away from it.
00;25;52;11 - 00;26;13;00
Dave Quak
And even going to the beach, away from everyone else, the noise came with me hiding from it. The noise came with me. Have you got any, I guess, insider advice, even as just a one step for anyone who at the moment feels like every TV channel is on in their mind, right now. Like, what's the first step towards stopping the noise?
00;26;13;03 - 00;26;23;09
Paul Grimmond
I wonder if it's just acknowledging and realizing that the noise is a sign of the fact that things are right.
00;26;23;11 - 00;26;25;21
Dave Quak
00;26;25;23 - 00;26;49;12
Paul Grimmond
You're not responsible for the noise. You can't automatically fix all of the noise, but you can go. I realize the noise is there. And I realize that it's having an effect and I realize I just need to reach out and tell someone that the noise is there. I think we so need the body of Jesus at this point in time, the body of Christ to love us and serve us.
00;26;49;12 - 00;27;11;23
Paul Grimmond
And so I think to reach out, I think the second thing for me, the noise is often filled with the language of accusation, you know, shame, that sense of disgust that we feel with ourselves, all of that kind of stuff. I think one of the things that God's helped me to do over time is learn to doubt the noise.
00;27;11;25 - 00;27;27;23
Paul Grimmond
Okay. So I could put it like that. That when, when I'm experiencing the noise, I used to get caught up in the midst of it, trying to solve it and fix all the bits, and I couldn't hear. And then the other thing had come, and I've kind of bounced around all over the place. I think over time God's helped me to go.
00;27;27;24 - 00;27;49;07
Paul Grimmond
When that's happening, I realize that that noise is kind of this anxious part of me that's speaking and I don't need to listen. Now is not the time to listen. Now is actually the time to say, okay, I'm feeling it. I can't make it go away, but I don't need to sit and listen to everything that it's telling me.
00;27;49;09 - 00;27;56;26
Dave Quak
Now. You've been walking in the rhythms of this for a long time, Paul, and teaching on it. Has the noise stopped?
00;27;56;28 - 00;28;01;19
Paul Grimmond
I'd say it's gotten duller.
00;28;01;22 - 00;28;22;17
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. So I don't think. Sorry. There are days when it's stopped. I'm not there all the time, but I go through seasons when it comes and goes and comes and goes. I'll have patches when I'm waking again at 4 a.m. in the morning and my mind's going round the loop a thousand times, you know. And I've tried to pray, and then I've gone around the loop another 1000 times and then I.
00;28;22;22 - 00;28;44;27
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, all that stuff that happens. So that happens. But I feel like at least now, I mean, God's kindness, I'm not quite as anxious about being anxious. I can well go this is a thing I've got to try and persevere and just put one foot in front of the other today. My job today is just to survive.
00;28;44;27 - 00;29;09;19
Paul Grimmond
Today. It's not to solve everything and fix it all for tomorrow. Yeah. I just need to sit in God's grace and do what God's put in front of me today. I can do then, and I think to realizing that the the noise has at some level or another helped me to, to, to grow and is and it's part of become part of who I am.
00;29;09;22 - 00;29;24;16
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. In ways that God's use even that horrible thing for good in my life and on my better days, I can point to that and explain it and and see how it's happened. And then there are other days when I'm just clinging on for dear life.
00;29;24;19 - 00;29;44;17
Dave Quak
I appreciate you can do one thing. And when I was researching this book and watching some of the other interviews, I thought to myself, this is a man who is comfortable in his own skin to me, look like somebody who's okay, wrestled with a lot and come to grips with, you know, Paul Graham and and who you are in the world.
00;29;44;19 - 00;29;54;23
Dave Quak
And I don't think that can happen if we just have a normal, easy life. Like it takes some processing, it takes some self-reflection and, you know, do you like being Paul Graham? And now.
00;29;54;25 - 00;30;12;23
Paul Grimmond
Father, I'm so say, I am so thankful to God. For who? Yeah. Me. I'm. I'm thankful for the privilege of who I am and what I get to do. There's still weird things that happen, right? Often when I get up to preach, I'll get down and feel like I've been stupid or had something to do. But you know what I mean.
00;30;12;23 - 00;30;21;19
Paul Grimmond
Like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And like, that's just part of my life. And I'm, I've kind of, I live with that, and I'm. So. I don't want you to feel like. Geez, cut it off.
00;30;21;21 - 00;30;23;06
Dave Quak
No, I don't think you've got it all sorted.
00;30;23;09 - 00;30;44;20
Paul Grimmond
Know. Right, right. But I just I want people to hear that. But but I do I, I feel deeply thankful for what God has, has put me through. I feel thankful for the way that it's helped me to love other people. I'm really thankful for the relationships and the depth of relationships it's given me. I feel like it's helped me to mine the depths of the gospel.
00;30;44;23 - 00;30;45;12
Dave Quak
Yes.
00;30;45;12 - 00;30;50;25
Paul Grimmond
And understand some of the reality of God's love and God's promises.
00;30;50;27 - 00;31;06;05
Dave Quak
And it does give hope to people who, feeling hopeless that we, we need to make sure we share stories of people who, yeah, may not be perfected, but, ten years down the track, still serving Jesus, still loving their families and still getting up, still going.
00;31;06;09 - 00;31;29;10
Paul Grimmond
And it's okay, you know, to have times when, you, you need to take some time out or you need some breathing space or whatever. I mean, you know, Spurgeon used to spend 3 to 6 months at a time over in Europe convalescing when he was at his worst. Nobody ever tells those stories. You just hear the story about him preaching to the 10,000 people and the 100 people got converted and yada yada, yada yada.
00;31;29;12 - 00;31;43;21
Paul Grimmond
But the elders in his church semi-regularly sent him away to, get some rest or to do other things. You know, it's it's okay to be human. If you ever get a chance to to read Spurgeon, it's called the preachers fainting fits.
00;31;43;23 - 00;31;44;17
Dave Quak
Okay.
00;31;44;19 - 00;32;01;13
Paul Grimmond
It's a little, one of his lectures to my pupils. But it's a beautiful description of the reality of the experience of this in ministry and of the need to trust in God and to rest and do similar things. It's a it's a lovely, lovely piece.
00;32;01;16 - 00;32;18;19
Dave Quak
I'm going to read that because I love Spurgeon. He's such a character. You know, we spoke about the areas that people found helpful in the book. Is it areas where you found people are like, okay, Paul, book number two, we need more information on this. Like, have you found there's, a wedding of the appetite for something more?
00;32;18;22 - 00;32;24;08
Paul Grimmond
You know, that's an interesting question. Most of the feedback that I have had has been overwhelmingly positive.
00;32;24;10 - 00;32;25;14
Dave Quak
Yeah.
00;32;25;16 - 00;32;48;27
Paul Grimmond
It hasn't felt like this. Huge holes. I think as I keep reflecting, I do think there's probably I mean, I think there are other things that are important to think about. I think things like family of origin and the influence of your own family growing up and some reflections on how that's impacted you and the way that you respond to this stuff.
00;32;48;29 - 00;33;09;18
Paul Grimmond
I think there's more room there to explore some things, and, and to work out how to kind of bring grace to bear in that situation, particularly if you've come out of a place where you feel like your family's been very unhealthy or unhelpful in your past or whatever, but that contributes to some of your experience. I think there's more space there to think about some things.
00;33;09;18 - 00;33;11;04
Paul Grimmond
And yeah, yeah.
00;33;11;06 - 00;33;35;00
Dave Quak
I think it's good. This may not be your wheelhouse, but if you know any academics that want to write to 13 year old daughters of mine, equipping them on how they can support their friends. So my daughter's 13, and at least on a regular basis, she comes home and goes, my friends had a panic attack and I just stood there like a stunned mallet, not knowing what to do.
00;33;35;08 - 00;33;47;05
Dave Quak
Yeah, you know that we need to be able to like the second group in your book, you know, be equipping those who are the supporters because it's just growing and growing and growing and getting younger.
00;33;47;07 - 00;34;01;20
Paul Grimmond
Yeah, yeah. And that's really interesting. I do think that the youth space is a really significant space. Because I think they encounter it a lot now and again, like that framework or working out how to be a good friend. I think that yeah.
00;34;01;23 - 00;34;12;08
Dave Quak
Yeah they fly in blinding. And then the residual effect is also mental pressure on the supporter because they don't know how to how to help. So I think that's an awesome space we should explore.
00;34;12;08 - 00;34;30;06
Paul Grimmond
Like I've seen that in people in my own family actually as teenagers trying to look after others and having that exact same as well, let's as you know, as a teenager, when you're trying to make sense of yourself, when you're trying to love this person and whatever, that's a really complex space to make, you know, to to work out what's going on.
00;34;30;08 - 00;34;41;00
Dave Quak
That's right. And when you're trying to figure out yourself in your own face, Paul Mathias Media is your publisher. What's your preferred way for people to get Ahold of your resources?
00;34;41;02 - 00;34;53;29
Paul Grimmond
But you can, go straight to their websites and Mythos Media accommodate you by direct from the publisher. You need to know I don't make anything from the sales of the book. I've signed over all the royalties and stuff to the publisher.
00;34;54;06 - 00;34;55;14
Dave Quak
I didn't know that.
00;34;55;16 - 00;35;18;05
Paul Grimmond
Christian publishing is a hard place to make money. Okay, and, I love Mythos Media because they keep trying to produce gospel based resources on a whole heap of things, and I want them to to survive by seeking ways. Okay. So anything that gets earned off the book basically goes backing by them to producing other resources that they produce.
00;35;18;05 - 00;35;22;29
Dave Quak
So that that's awesome. So is it available on Amazon and all that?
00;35;23;01 - 00;35;31;11
Paul Grimmond
Yeah. You'll be able to find it on Amazon. You'll be able to find it. Yeah. Through any of the major Christian bookstores around the country as well. That kind of thing. Yeah.
00;35;31;14 - 00;35;36;14
Dave Quak
When they buy it, not directly from a source. There's less commission going back to Mathias.
00;35;36;14 - 00;35;43;24
Paul Grimmond
Absolutely. He drip by direct from them. Then all of the all the profit on the book goes back into them being able to produce other resources.
00;35;43;26 - 00;35;51;21
Dave Quak
Yeah. Okay. So listeners do that because it is a great ministry. What about e-books? Are they available or is it on audio audible?
00;35;51;23 - 00;35;58;01
Paul Grimmond
No, no. It's available. It's available as an e-book as well as so Kindle all that kind of stuff as well as. Yeah.
00;35;58;03 - 00;36;12;26
Dave Quak
Just as we start to wonder, why don't you just give us a little bit of a, update on what's happening at more college? I mean, a lot of my friends got a quip there. One of my friends went there and came back and schooled me on something that I learned, and I'll. And he was right. So I was like, okay, they're doing good stuff there.
00;36;13;03 - 00;36;17;17
Dave Quak
What's going on? It more what's going on there at the moment?
00;36;17;19 - 00;36;40;19
Paul Grimmond
Look, the big news for us in the last few years, we've been trying to, our four year, which is our kind of central training program for people going into kind of full time word based ministries. Has been a bachelor's degree, and we're trying to in the process of turning that into a master's degree. And so we've been reviewing our curriculum basically at a very significant level over the last kind of 3 or 4 years.
00;36;40;22 - 00;37;11;28
Paul Grimmond
And some of the big stuff that's come out of that where we're doing a lot more stuff in the reflection space, helping the people to be thoughtfully, personally aware about what's impacting them and how they're impacting others, and being able to kind of watch what's happening on awesome. We're doing a lot more work, at light, at the light of end of the course, at giving people kind of problem based stuff and helping them to think through how does my biblical understanding and my theological understanding and church history, how does all of that speak to the reality of doing ministry in the real world?
00;37;12;01 - 00;37;35;24
Paul Grimmond
Which we're that's a that's great. And it's helping us to become less we I think like lots of tertiary institutions, it's easy to become solid. The Old Testament guys do their Old Testament and New Testament guys do their thing. The ethics guys do their thing and whatever. But we keep saying to each other, our job is to produce people who can pull all this stuff together and actually apply it to reality and teach people to love and serve Jesus.
00;37;35;24 - 00;37;45;29
Paul Grimmond
So we're working at trying to help people find the elements and integrate more towards the end of the course, so that they kind of better prepared coming out the other end. So that's some of the stuff we've been kind of working on recently.
00;37;46;02 - 00;37;47;28
Dave Quak
That's exciting. That's super cool. Yeah.
00;37;47;29 - 00;37;48;24
Paul Grimmond
Very exciting.
00;37;48;28 - 00;38;02;05
Dave Quak
Awesome. Well, Paul Graham and it has been such a pleasure having you on the show, and I appreciate your generous generosity with your time and wisdom and insight. I would love it if you could pray for us as we start to wind up today. Is that cool?
00;38;02;08 - 00;38;11;08
Paul Grimmond
Be a great privilege. David. Thanks so much for having me. It like enormous privilege to be able to speak here. But let's pray for people who are struggling. Yeah.
00;38;11;10 - 00;38;13;12
Dave Quak
Awesome.
00;38;13;15 - 00;38;53;28
Paul Grimmond
Father in heaven, we thank you that you, the Lord of all of the universe, we thank you that you know each one of us intimately and personally. And we thank you, father, that you have made a promise in Jesus to be with your people, even when they sit in the deep blackness of anxiety and depression. Father, we pray, please, for those who are listening, who are really in the midst of an intense struggle at the moment, we pray, please, father, that you would help them.
00;38;54;00 - 00;39;32;06
Paul Grimmond
Father, please. When the noise won't stop, we pray that you would help them not to listen to the noise. When we when they feel like they're in the blackness and their prayers are bouncing off the ceiling, we pray that you would provide people around them who will love them and remind them of your grace. We pray, father, for the supernatural work of your spirit, that people might be able to turn and see Jesus and remember that the cross is the promise of your love and not the circumstances that they find themselves in.
00;39;32;09 - 00;40;00;03
Paul Grimmond
Father, help them to know that they are adopted children, and that even as they wrestle with it, they wrestle with this in a place of security, with you as their loving father. Lord, we long for that day when Jesus comes back and when you will wipe the tears from our eyes and, the awful distresses of this world will pass away.
00;40;00;05 - 00;40;24;05
Paul Grimmond
But we pray, please, that you might cling to us, and, father, that you would grant us grace to cling to you as we wait. And father, please, according to your promises, use the even these things to grow us in the likeness of Jesus and in our love for you and father. We pray all of these things in Jesus precious name.
00;40;24;07 - 00;40;29;07
Paul Grimmond
We.
00;40;29;10 - 00;40;52;21
Dave Quak
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being, check out some bentos.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak something. That souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.
00;40;52;24 - 00;41;02;19
Dave Quak
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give you better off sharing a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Clark from Sunburned Souls.