Women in Leadership with Jess Quak and Maddy Mandall: Navigating Faith, Ministry, and Mental Health (Part 1)

In the first of a two-part series on SUNBURNT SOULS, Jess and Dave Quak are joined by Maddy Mandall to discuss the unique challenges and rewards of women in church leadership. Following last week's episode on women in leadership, Maddy shares her journey as a female pastor, her experiences with burnout, and her role in mentoring emerging leaders. The conversation explores the intersection of faith, mental health, and navigating structural barriers in ministry.

Key Moments

• Introduction (00:00:00 - 00:00:36): Jess introduces the show and the two-part series, noting the positive response to last week's discussion. Dave welcomes Maddy Mandell, praising her insights from the previous episode.
• Maddy’s Kay Warren Interview (00:00:36 - 00:02:44): Maddy recounts her impromptu interview with Kay Warren at the Baptist World Congress in Brisbane, highlighting Kay’s humility and Dave’s lighthearted jealousy.
• Maddy’s Role (00:02:44 - 00:03:26): Maddy works with Queensland State Baptists in leadership development, supporting pastors and emerging leaders across the state.
• Women in Ministry Challenges (00:03:26 - 00:11:19): Maddy shares her calling to ministry as a young woman and the "not yet" resistance she faced, contrasted with opportunities given to male peers. Jess and Maddy discuss the emotional toll of theological debates about women in leadership and mentoring young women facing similar issues.
• Project 11 and Mental Health (00:11:19 - 00:14:52): Maddy describes her work with Project 11, a leadership program with a balanced gender ratio, and the mental health challenges young women face, including theological scrutiny and power dynamics.
• Structural Barriers (00:14:52 - 00:19:58): Jess and Maddy reflect on overcoming imposter syndrome and biases as young women in ministry, emphasizing the importance of grounding their identity in faith.
• Burnout and Recovery (00:19:58 - 00:24:37): Maddy opens up about her burnout experience, driven by ministry pressures and lack of full community support. She sought professional help, including medication, and rebuilt her health holistically.
• Maintaining Well-Being (00:24:37 - 00:30:45): Maddy and Jess share strategies for mental health, including support networks, professional supervision, and personal rhythms like solitude, exercise, and prayer.
• Lo

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Transcript

Well, welcome to SUNBURNT SOULS on the show. We speak about life and faith and our mental well-being. And this week we're actually having a special episode because last week we started by doing a session with the one and only Jessica Kwak about women in leadership and the mental health implications of that. Anyway, it got some good traction and people commented, and one of the best insights came from an awesome woman called Maddie Mendel.

00:00:26:04 - 00:00:32:13
Dave Quak 
So we've asked Maddie to join Jess and I for this week's episode of Sundance. Also, Maddie. Welcome to the episode.

00:00:32:14 - 00:00:33:17
Maddy Mandell
Thank you so much.

00:00:33:18 - 00:00:35:08
Dave Quak 
Thank you for coming down.

00:00:35:09 - 00:00:36:00
Maddy Mandell
Not a worry

00:00:36:06 - 00:01:00:23
Dave Quak 
So, Maddie Mendel, just before we get into it, I have to tell you that I'm jealous. Okay. Because for one year, I've been chasing Kay Warren for an interview. So I emailed, and I did all the steps. I googled how to get an interview with someone. If you don't know, K Warren, Rick Warren, and Kay Warren, one of the, you know, the most influential places in the world.

00:01:01:00 - 00:01:12:24
Dave Quak 
They lost a son to suicide, sadly. And she speaks all over the world on mental wellbeing stuff. Anyway, I've been chasing a couldn't get past the gatekeeper. Mic minute, I get on the, on the socials and see you just.

00:01:12:24 - 00:01:15:00
Maddy Mandell
I just fell into it casually.

00:01:15:00 - 00:01:18:01
Dave Quak 
Just checking in with came over and had that happen.

00:01:18:03 - 00:01:38:08
Maddy Mandell
Just recently we had the Baptist World Congress, so Baptist from all over the globe ended up in, in Brisbane. In my little city, our, you know, our home state. And, Kay Warren was one of the speakers at the big main Congress, but also at a next gen leaders summit that that I was a part of as well.

00:01:38:10 - 00:01:53:14
Maddy Mandell
And so, yeah, she did like a little, you know, Ted talk style, talk there and then, an elective breakout session as well. And I was sort of hosting her during that portion. So, yeah, it went out and movement was like, oh, we'd love to get into K. Can we tee that up while she's here? Yeah.

00:01:53:16 - 00:02:09:06
Maddy Mandell
So it was a really last minute. I was literally just talking face to face with her. So that's probably how it happened. And then. Yeah, got to have a little bit of a tutorial there. So yeah. Yeah, she was there with K. So it was literally just like, oh do you have a spare 30 minutes in the next two days?

00:02:09:06 - 00:02:20:12
Maddy Mandell
We would love to do this. So it was, it was yeah, a little bit impromptu, which is probably what helped. But yeah, it was it was beautiful to see her in action. She was so loving and so grace filled.

00:02:20:14 - 00:02:25:06
Dave Quak 
You interviewed well, like you held your own with one of the most prominent pastors on the planet.

00:02:25:07 - 00:02:28:12
Maddy Mandell
She was such a. Yeah. She was just such a humble woman.

00:02:28:16 - 00:02:37:24
Dave Quak 
She's cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's the PR that I couldn't get past. Now she was clean because she said no. And I sent back, saying, what could I do to get this.

00:02:38:01 - 00:02:39:01
Maddy Mandell
Over the line?

00:02:39:03 - 00:02:41:21
Dave Quak 
She actually sent back a really generous email with all these pointers and said.

00:02:41:21 - 00:02:43:18
Jess Quak 
Oh, that's so good. I'm happy.

00:02:43:18 - 00:02:44:03
Dave Quak 
For you.

00:02:44:04 - 00:02:44:19
Maddy Mandell
Yes. No.

00:02:44:19 - 00:02:47:24
Dave Quak 
Yeah, yeah. Maddie, tell us about your role. What do you do?

00:02:48:01 - 00:03:16:10
Maddy Mandell
So at the moment, I work with, the Queensland State Baptists. Mason that the leadership development space. So helping our leaders grow in health in schools, it, you know, and that that's everything from, younger emerging leaders all the way through to our pastors as well, and ongoing development for them. I am a pastor where I just did pasta and have been doing that in the local church in the past.

00:03:16:12 - 00:03:25:21
Maddy Mandell
But yeah, now I get this beautiful privilege of being able to work with churches and leaders all across the state of Queensland, helping them grow, basically. Yeah.

00:03:26:00 - 00:03:43:10
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So really cool. And last week, you were really generous with your comments. To Jess and I, particularly to Jess, about our conversation, what's being a female pastor in our movement or even just in general, like for you? And then and also for you, Jess, you feel free to weigh in as well.

00:03:43:14 - 00:04:10:06
Jess Quak 
Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've already shared quite a bit, but it's good to see because not every whether you're a woman or a man, your path in leadership and your discipleship and your growth is going to look different from someone else. So I think it's definitely worthwhile hearing other views even within this space. I think particularly because it is so different for each person.

00:04:10:08 - 00:04:11:04
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:11:04 - 00:04:12:23
Dave Quak 
So what was it like for humanity?

00:04:13:00 - 00:04:35:09
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Well, I, you know, it's the fact that I am a woman and I am called to ministry. Like, it's definitely been, an undeniable kind of undergirding thing, I guess, from day one. Really. I, felt a call to ministry and wanted to go to college from, a pretty young age as well. And the first Christian in my family came to faith at 15.

00:04:35:11 - 00:04:59:03
Maddy Mandell
And from about 18, I sort of felt this call to, to ministry and all the rest of it, and express that in my, my church community and didn't get told no. Got told. Not yet. Which was like probably the only tension I've ever really thrown in my life, which so far wasn't very dramatic, but, you know, and I thought, okay, that's fine.

00:04:59:03 - 00:05:15:00
Maddy Mandell
I, went on to do another degree at university. I was still so young in the face, so new to church. Realistically, I had a lot of learning and growing. I could do, but even in that period of time, I watched a lot of other young guys the exact same age as me. Not looking very different at all.

00:05:15:00 - 00:05:38:21
Maddy Mandell
Then they got they just got an absolute free pass. They got sent off to Bible College. They were allowed to go and do the things that I'd been told. No. And, I don't begrudge the leaders that that told me to wait for that. I think I think they probably was a part of their logic where they really wanted to make sure that I was serious about this, and that I was really sure that this was what God was saying to me, because they they anticipated some of the challenge that might come along with that, I guess.

00:05:38:23 - 00:06:09:10
Maddy Mandell
And when the time finally came that I was able to step into that a little bit more and stepped into more formal leadership and got to go to college. It did really feel like a gift. I was still very young, but I had grown up a little bit. And so even from those really early stages, like, I guess this there's been something about being a woman in, in church leadership for me that it's just kind of often been an element of lack, a bit of a question mark or a bit of an extra hurdle or, you know, like something there that that is that extra kind of catch.

00:06:09:10 - 00:06:28:10
Maddy Mandell
You've got to wade through or push through or, you know, whatever that might look like along the way. And that's, you know, that's been an ongoing theme in one way or another over the years. That was a bit of it over ten years ago now. But yeah, along the way, God's always really faithful.

00:06:28:15 - 00:06:29:17
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:06:29:19 - 00:06:53:22
Jess Quak 
Did you also find. Because I know for myself, I one conversation I got really sick of was the should women be in ministry conversation and simply by being in the room, that conversation came up. Yeah. So often, and it is the place where people are coming to, you know, filter through. What am I really thinking?

00:06:53:22 - 00:07:22:13
Jess Quak 
What does the Bible really say? What are these different perspectives? Some people just had an agenda. Yeah. And other people were like, not very gracious about answering that question either. How did you find going from especially a non-Christian home where this probably wasn't much of a discussion at all? Yeah. From home. Yeah. To then that environment.

00:07:22:16 - 00:07:23:14
Jess Quak 


00:07:23:16 - 00:07:50:08
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Absolutely. I, I definitely realized I was on a thing in my house at all. I came from what you would probably consider, I guess, a bit of a liberal kind of generally left leaning family. My dad has a shirt that says the Future is female on it equals good. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, stepping into the church, I guess I did start to pick up, I suppose, maybe more subconsciously than anything else about what seems kind of builds dynamic here.

00:07:50:10 - 00:08:14:11
Maddy Mandell
Our church had women in, senior leadership, but, no women were called pastors. No women preach. So, like, it was more of this subconscious kind of figuring it out. And so it was still something that as I sort of realized, oh, this is a question in this part of the world, what do I do? And, you know, just reading Scripture yourself, and you come across this passage like, oh, what does this mean?

00:08:14:11 - 00:08:38:10
Maddy Mandell
Like that's at face value. That's a little bit confronting. So I had to go on that journey myself. I didn't want to just take, you know, maybe where I'd been or the like, the family culture I'd been a part of or what the world would sort of say and take that as gospel. I did have to do the big wrestle myself, and get very well versed with, you know, both extremes of, of the debate and everything in between.

00:08:38:12 - 00:08:58:14
Maddy Mandell
Which in and of itself is an incredibly exhausting, painful thing to do when you're also kind of grappling with this call at the same time. You're like, I feel like I know what God is saying to me, but I'm trying to reconcile it with everything else. But it also meant that I that was happening at a bit more of a, explicit level in the church community I was a part of, too.

00:08:58:15 - 00:09:24:21
Maddy Mandell
You know, I came on staff as a coordinator, when I stepped into that more full responsibility and, you know, did did college over the next few years and all the while, you know. Yeah. Kind of cradling this cold to pastoral ministry, and just kept, you know, sort of not not not questioning or demanding, but just articulating that to leadership, like, just everyone remembers, like, this is what I feel called to.

00:09:24:23 - 00:09:43:19
Maddy Mandell
And I'm heading towards a point where you know, in some sense, I've kind of ticked all the boxes. And so is there anything stopping us? So our church ended up actually going through, a pretty extensive black, 12 month long discernment process together. There was two women on staff at that point about whether we would be called pastors.

00:09:43:21 - 00:10:03:04
Maddy Mandell
And, and I'm looking back, I'm, I'm so proud of the way that process was done. The leadership was so they were so wise and they were so honoring. And it was really difficult, for for me, I was I was young and, you know, for everybody looking at you in a season like that and saying, oh, it's not personal.

00:10:03:04 - 00:10:07:14
Maddy Mandell
It's not personal. We're just working through the question. Okay. But it is a.

00:10:07:14 - 00:10:08:18
Jess Quak 
Little bit personal.

00:10:08:19 - 00:10:09:18
Dave Quak 
Since I'm the person.

00:10:09:18 - 00:10:29:14
Maddy Mandell
I'm the person, and I could be the one that ends up, you know, not with the job at the end of this. And as much as people are working through the theology and what does Scripture say? Like you're also the example that pinning to that and trying to, you know, like, oh, if this is what's in front of us right now, that's what we're reading in Scripture.

00:10:29:16 - 00:10:41:03
Maddy Mandell
It is still pretty real. And so, that's pray the biggest example and season I had of that conversation being had live. And you're kind of like the case study.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:41:09
Jess Quak 
Of.

00:10:41:09 - 00:11:16:02
Maddy Mandell
What that looks like. And but you know. Yeah, on on smaller scales that that happens a lot. I'm grateful. That's probably less of a conversation I'm having explicitly with people these days. But it certainly still comes off. And, you know, more often than not, I'm probably I'm having it now with other young women who are facing that in their immediate contexts and helping them process through themselves, but also how to carry themselves, and how to protect themselves and their mental health and their heart when they're navigating that in community as well.

00:11:16:02 - 00:11:19:19
Maddy Mandell
Because I yeah. No, it's it's a bit of a mental battlefield.

00:11:19:21 - 00:11:25:14
Dave Quak 
Met matter. You're mentoring the project. 11 people still. And so there's a bunch of ladies coming through that.

00:11:25:14 - 00:11:25:22
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:11:25:22 - 00:11:36:01
Dave Quak 
Well what do you gauge as some of the mental wellbeing hurdles you mentioned mental health just and no without breaking confidence, what are they coming up to you for the side chats about.

00:11:36:03 - 00:11:56:19
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. So for those who don't know, project 11 is like an emerging leadership development course, I guess. But it also happens in local communities with lots of practical ministry staff. And, it's been going for a few years now, but pretty consistently every year we have had it's it's almost been identical at about sort of like 55% women, 45% guys.

00:11:56:19 - 00:12:19:08
Maddy Mandell
So like, you know, ratio wise, it's actually almost evenly split. And those young women, I guess, that are coming through, they're sitting at all different levels. The majority of like, you know, feel a lot like overwhelming majority of those are not necessarily looking at jumping into like vocational pastoral ministry, but they're really passionate about the church and serving the kingdom.

00:12:19:08 - 00:12:46:23
Maddy Mandell
And whatever that looks like, that come from a whole variety of, of churches as well. You know, I know you guys spoke a little bit last week. We've got a diverse range of beliefs on this in Queensland. And so, you know, they they all come from very different circumstances. But those that I guess maybe in sort of, you know, might be heading up ministries or like looking at possibly going to some kind of pastoral ministry, I think.

00:12:46:23 - 00:13:11:00
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, they're definitely, they are grappling with, I've got to be able to make sure that this is like stance theologically for me, you know, that kind of thing as well. And that, that I do think is it that's difficult mentally because you're reading a lot of content and taking a lot of stuff in that can feel like a bit of a knife to the gut as well?

00:13:11:02 - 00:13:31:00
Maddy Mandell
There also, I think there's a big element of there are often leading up, whether they're, you know, so you've got somebody who's heading up, a kids ministry or something in their church. They'll have volunteers of both genders, of all ages. You know, some people that have been like teaching Sunday school longer than they've been alive.

00:13:31:03 - 00:13:52:06
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. You know, some they think. Yeah, yeah. And on their teams. And how do they work with that. And there's a huge there's, there's really significant power dynamics that go on in those relationships. And and they're an, a big emotional load. I think that constantly comes from figuring out like, how do you navigate that? And hold on one hand, yeah, I'm young or but I know I'm cold.

00:13:52:08 - 00:14:11:02
Maddy Mandell
And how do I honor people but also stand firm in the fact that I feel like God's called me to lead in this space. What does that look like? That's that's often a conversation I have with lots of of young women of like. Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, particularly when that might come to a point where I don't feel like I, I maybe am being respected or there's a bit of conflict in this space.

00:14:11:02 - 00:14:34:14
Maddy Mandell
And how do I manage all of those things? That can be, that can be difficult to and often just that they might feel like God's put a vision on their heart for something that they've never seen in real life. You know, and at least in a way that looks like them. So I have a lot of conversations with, with young women who, whether I've preached that church or done whatever.

00:14:34:14 - 00:14:52:15
Maddy Mandell
And, and you can just sort of see this, like, ticking over in their brain of like, oh, you kind of look you look more like me than anyone else I've ever seen in a pulpit or in leadership. I'm like, oh, can I do this too? What does it look like for me to do this, too? Yeah.

00:14:52:17 - 00:15:12:17
Dave Quak 
Can you both speak to this reset? Because you both had a similar experience where you felt cold, but there were some hurdles, whether that was structural or whatever, between your calling and you're able to execute that. I have zero experience in that, because anytime I felt cold, I've, I've, I've either had the opportunity to do it or made the opportunity.

00:15:12:21 - 00:15:31:18
Dave Quak 
And there's been no body to be able to stop me. Do you know what I mean? So what's it like for you? For, you know, women coming through in systems where you feel called to something, but they are structural, theological or whatever barriers that actually do stop you, at least for a season.

00:15:31:20 - 00:15:59:03
Jess Quak 
Yeah. It it it's interesting, Mattie, that you pointed out the particular stage of not just being a woman, feeling coaching ministry and learning that way, but a young woman in that space, because I found probably that was one of the most frustrating seasons, and forming for me in ministry as well, because I unfortunately also had where I looked very young.

00:15:59:03 - 00:16:26:15
Jess Quak 
Yeah, even when I was young. So, it was a really interesting dynamic of watching the way that different people would react to me. And, I eventually came to see and to learn that how people are responding to me as a Christian, thinking maybe like I'm this young girl who doesn't know anything. To an extent that was true.

00:16:26:15 - 00:16:49:24
Jess Quak 
And I had to, like, humble myself and be like, yeah, well, I actually do have a lot to learn. And there are things that these older people can teach me. But at the same time, you're showing me and treating me this way. More about your own character. If you aren't willing to learn from me just because I am of a different gender or because I'm younger than you, that speaks to something about your own character.

00:16:50:01 - 00:16:53:08
Jess Quak 
And that sort of.

00:16:53:10 - 00:17:22:06
Jess Quak 
Helped me to just really ground myself in where I'm standing before God. I need to have integrity in the way that I live. And, just keep on being here. Just keep showing up. Just keep loving Jesus. Just keep being obedient and he will show these people eventually who I am. And if they're not going to see it because of whatever prejudice they may have, they're not going to see it.

00:17:22:06 - 00:17:52:23
Jess Quak 
And that's up to him to change hearts, to change minds. And that's a really difficult hurdle. But I found that that was a really significant formation element that I needed for leadership for the rest of my leadership, and I think everyone will need to go through that at some phase of their leadership. And for some, like maybe for a minute, it might be when they're getting older or something and people like, oh, you're getting into an older man, you're no longer relevant because you're older or something.

00:17:53:00 - 00:18:13:11
Jess Quak 
I don't know. But for women, it seems to be that sort of stage. So, yeah, that for me, I think was a massive hurdle. But it was a really good for me. Moment.

00:18:13:13 - 00:18:41:19
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. I definitely experienced a lot of that too. I think. And it I like don't think I did it. Well I thought realistically like years of there's a lot I experience, a lot of imposter syndrome along the lines of, you know dealing with that. Like I again, I think, I don't know, maybe if I'd had more women around me, they might have they might have seen some of that insecurity and that a bond syndrome maybe been able to come out of a little bit.

00:18:41:19 - 00:19:04:15
Maddy Mandell
But I wasn't very good in those areas of ministry at at like differentiating myself as well. My like, I let my, my ministry or like the way that people were perceiving me in ministry become identity. In a lot of ways. And like become way more of a defining feature than it probably should have been as well.

00:19:04:15 - 00:19:21:16
Maddy Mandell
Which, like eventually I had a point where I went through a season of, you know, like capital B burnout as well, and had to recover through that. And we can talk about that more if we want. But I certainly went through those sorts of experience as well. But the flip side of it being, yeah, it is super formation and and even though it.

00:19:21:16 - 00:19:40:06
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, I feel like I went to like big dip, like to do all of that on the other side. But God in his grace redeems so much of that suffering. Men, you know, and brings lots of healing. But yeah, like you did, you do come out on the other side of that. I think I like it in the midst of all of that.

00:19:40:06 - 00:19:58:04
Maddy Mandell
You are. You are holding so tightly to a calling like, you have to be so sure about that for sure. Yeah. When you when you're facing all these, whether it's structural, whatever, like hurdles you have to be so sure, or as you walk away from it and, and sadly many women do. And that's not because I don't have enough faith or because they're being disobedient to God.

00:19:58:04 - 00:20:13:14
Maddy Mandell
It's really, really hard to stay. You just run out of steam. Yeah. And so many women do. But yeah, like, if you can hold on to it because, yeah, you know, like, this is not easy. Do this and I'm going to stick at it no matter how hard it might be. And, and there is some blessing in that.

00:20:13:14 - 00:20:14:15
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. As well.

00:20:14:19 - 00:20:16:13
Dave Quak 
Can you tell us about the burnout.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:59:18
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. So I had been it was sort of after this sort of first big season ministering, going to Bible college and also this big, journey that our church had been doing. And there were lots there were lots of factors that played into it, for sure. But, I do think that that that kind of constant, like a mental battlefield of not feeling, fully supported by your, community at large, even though, like, you know, the majority of people were supportive, but that just that constant question mark and, and, and juggling through the weight of like, oh, I don't want to be the person who causes division in that

00:20:59:18 - 00:21:23:03
Maddy Mandell
community I don't like this is important enough to me that I think we need to do this journey. But what if people leave our church over this or whatever? And I was 25 ish, like, I was, you know, really young. And so I ended up taking a season, season off, and I, and I stepped away from, that role in that church community that I've been a part of, which was huge.

00:21:23:03 - 00:21:48:15
Maddy Mandell
I'd been at that church for 12 years. I'd been on staff for a little bit over five. So it was a really big shift, newly married, you know, like the whole the whole thing. I was still doing a bit of study and working part time somewhere else, but I, I really think it was a season where, I'd just gotten to a point where, like, God had to God had to strip it away so that I could do a lot of that identity work and, and process things for and just take care of my health again.

00:21:48:15 - 00:22:07:23
Maddy Mandell
So, you know, meet with my GP. That was when I did end up on medication for a little while there as well. See, my psychologist regularly and then just getting back on top of, you know, the diet and the excess. So like it it was a season where I did, take space. And I'm so grateful that I could take the space.

00:22:07:23 - 00:22:33:20
Maddy Mandell
I had an incredible husband who was supporting me and and all the rest of it, but I could take that step back to really kind of holistically look at look at health again, everything from from mental to physical and social and how those things were playing together. And I did keep praying that like, you know, like was at that point in the beginning, especially where you just kind of Bailey functioning and everything feels really numb and you don't know what what is often like.

00:22:33:22 - 00:22:44:03
Maddy Mandell
And, you know, in that moment to being like, well, I, I definitely had a moment of being like, I screwed it up and I'm a woman, so that might be it. Maybe, maybe, maybe I blew my.

00:22:44:03 - 00:22:44:19
Jess Quak 
Shot and.

00:22:45:00 - 00:23:10:06
Maddy Mandell
And that's it. But yeah, handing that over to God, I guess, and literally just taking it a day at a time, sometimes an hour at a time. And praying. My prayer was like, I just had never felt so lost and so loud in my life. But asking God to in however, you know, however, he could bring redemption to that and blessing to that and flourishing to that, that that might be an equal measure.

00:23:10:07 - 00:23:27:12
Maddy Mandell
I didn't know when, I didn't know how that was going to be possible. But but to do that and yet it was a, a long journey. And I certainly live my life very differently now, which is, you know, a healthy and a good thing. But, you know, you live your life differently in light of seasons like that.

00:23:27:14 - 00:23:29:23
Dave Quak 
Was that medication and antidepressant?

00:23:30:00 - 00:23:50:01
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Anti-anxiety antidepressant kind of medication for a while there, too. And then that was that was seasonal for me. I came up that eventually and and it certainly wasn't a lark. I didn't go out. It wasn't one of those like, you know, flipped a switch and felt really great. But, you know, my, my, my GP at the time described it like sometimes it's just like you're standing at a fence and you can't see over the fence.

00:23:50:01 - 00:24:11:02
Maddy Mandell
And this is hopefully just going to be a way to give you a little bit of a step up and you might be able to like, peek over it a little bit more. And so, yeah, I think it's I as I said before, that the mock up that season was it was a whole, yeah, a really holistic, like we're just going to throw everything we can at, at getting back to a place of health again.

00:24:11:02 - 00:24:27:04
Maddy Mandell
And yeah, that included all sorts of different things. So yeah, it was it was a very tough season, but I'm, I, I'm really grateful for the way that I was supported through that from a whole bunch of different people. But then yeah, also being able to come out of that very different.

00:24:27:06 - 00:24:37:02
Dave Quak 
Yeah. It's sort of encouraging that you had the humility to jump on the, an SSRI or whatever for a little while. Yeah. But then also that it wasn't a lifetime sentence.

00:24:37:02 - 00:24:37:15
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:24:37:16 - 00:24:55:10
Dave Quak 
Because I think for some of this medication, for me it's a lifetime because with bipolar it's pretty much lifetime. Bar a miracle. But for some people it is seasonal. And we we should have no guilt about that, especially in the Christian church. But what do you do now to live differently than leading up to the burnout?

00:24:55:12 - 00:25:18:04
Maddy Mandell
I think, you know, on the one hand, this isn't like a super, like a schedule kind of practical thing, but I think a lot of the, the work that I did with the Lord in prayer, but also with my psychologist, I'm working through a lot to kind of, work through some identity stuff. And, you know, what are some of the classic things that draw me into a place where I'm leaning on the wrong things to define me and my identity?

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:34:04
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, that was really helpful. And I do still have moments I like even about about 12 months ago, I had a moment again, where I was feeling stressed about a few different things, and it was my husband. He looked at me and he's like, are you okay? Like, are you? Yeah, yeah. Are you do it like, is it happening again?

00:25:34:04 - 00:25:54:20
Maddy Mandell
Where? Where something is finding you and and and I'm so glad he asked that question and I was I was able in that mode to stop me like no I, I don't like I don't think so. I'm just, I'm just stressed about this like situation that's going on right now. But I, you know, so I guess I could work through some of that stuff, but was but got tools to be able to apply further on.

00:25:54:22 - 00:26:26:13
Maddy Mandell
But I also just, knew that it was important for me that season. My, my support system looks a little bit different now, I guess, as well. I've got all sorts of, you know, different people for different seasons. Amazing husband, great friends. But I also, you know, I have professional supervision and I have, a mentor, you know, and I've seen my psychologist, you know, so little chunks of time, like when I, you know, like, a lot, like, since, you know, since that I was seeing her nonstop for a while throughout the burnout.

00:26:26:13 - 00:26:48:06
Maddy Mandell
But, I've been back for little chunks of time since then as well. And so, you know, yeah, like some of those networks that are, that are ongoing and nonstop, other people that, you know, one of my good friends calls them secret mentors, you know, people who you like, you can call up that don't really know that you see them as like I've been told by and, you know, they're not committed to you, like once a month or whatever, but you know that you can go to them.

00:26:48:06 - 00:27:09:21
Maddy Mandell
So, yeah, the support network thing is something that that definitely looks different now to what it used to as well. And then, you know, and then just the other things of the schedule and rhythms and, you know, I still I'm so glad that my, my physical, the way I exercise, the way I eat is in a much better place now than I probably ever has been in my life.

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:12:01
Maddy Mandell
But all those things are really important and important.

00:27:12:01 - 00:27:18:15
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And like you said, even before, like, eat, sleep and exercise, sometimes it's just such a miracle and it's so obvious, but we don't do it. Yeah.

00:27:18:15 - 00:27:20:12
Maddy Mandell
It's really difficult when you're in a bad place.

00:27:20:16 - 00:27:22:07
Jess Quak 
Yeah. Really hard.

00:27:22:09 - 00:27:26:15
Dave Quak 
Yeah. When you just go to sleep, I wish, but if you've been in my nightmares.

00:27:26:15 - 00:27:27:16
Jess Quak 
For the night.

00:27:27:18 - 00:27:28:10
Maddy Mandell
Exactly.

00:27:28:14 - 00:27:38:19
Dave Quak 
It's interesting material kind of like rhythms of staying, you know, mentally well and spiritually well. A quiet collaborative with people. But, Jess, you're quite an independent soul when it comes to all that.

00:27:38:19 - 00:27:39:08
Jess Quak 
Yeah.

00:27:39:08 - 00:27:40:23
Dave Quak 
So what do you do to stay sane?

00:27:41:01 - 00:27:41:11
Jess Quak 
Yeah.

00:27:41:12 - 00:27:42:21
Dave Quak 
As a pastor.

00:27:42:23 - 00:28:09:15
Jess Quak 
I think, I think I am quite introverted as well. And I really process, like, Dave, you're an external processor, so if Dave's thinking something or working through something, I'll hear about it. And so that's fine. Unfortunately for Dave, he will hear about what I'm processing three months after the fact when I'm like, okay, so he's what I've been processing.

00:28:09:17 - 00:28:11:10
Jess Quak 
This is what I maybe every now.

00:28:11:10 - 00:28:14:24
Dave Quak 
And then she'll just come up to me, go. I've been struggling for the last six months.

00:28:15:01 - 00:28:16:19
Jess Quak 
I could have helped.

00:28:16:21 - 00:28:37:09
Jess Quak 
And like and this is whatever the conclusion I've come to, this is what I've done is what I've put in place. So it's actually been really good for me. I, we do have, mandatory professional supervision, which has been great. And my professional supervisor is incredible. And, so she's great to go. Okay. This is where we were at last time.

00:28:37:09 - 00:29:02:20
Jess Quak 
Where are you at with that now? That sort of stuff. But for me, I need space. I think because, yeah, when I'm with people, I love it. It's great. I love loving people, but I need time and space to myself to recharge. And when I'm not getting enough of that, and especially that one on one time with God, I just feel so depleted.

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:31:10
Jess Quak 
And that's when I start reaching for blocks of chocolate. Just then I feel grace, and then I don't sleep. And then it's it's. Yeah. Yeah, I so yeah, those rhythms and disciplines for me. So for me because we have a full house as well. Like if I'm not up in the morning before everyone unless I'm sleeping in, just getting my own space before everyone gets up.

00:29:31:12 - 00:29:49:08
Jess Quak 
I just feel quite scattered. Because people are asking things of me before I can get a grounded sense of the day. Just little things. Like that, and. Yeah, good time just looking at the stars at night. Every now and again, I'll just be staring at the sky.

00:29:49:10 - 00:29:55:01
Dave Quak 
She knows she stands out there just looking at the sky. Like, you know, you got your garden as well. You go out there.

00:29:55:03 - 00:29:55:19
Jess Quak 
And you get.

00:29:55:24 - 00:29:58:01
Dave Quak 
Herbs and stuff. Yeah.

00:29:58:03 - 00:30:00:06
Jess Quak 
Just getting some some space and.

00:30:00:07 - 00:30:15:11
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, yeah, I'm certainly like I'm an introvert too. And I certainly do. Yeah. Like you'd like every day to have my space where I can sit down with my coffee and read the word and, you know, and like, I retreat usually a couple of times a year. Definitely after big events that have kind of round, but I'll say as needed as well.

00:30:15:12 - 00:30:37:07
Maddy Mandell
But yeah, I think the support network for me has been so important because, I think I just, I realize, oh yeah, the blind spots are bigger than I realized. And so as much as, like, you need all those time. So the support for me came in handy of like, oh, no, I actually need people around me who can, who know me and, like, can help translate whatever's going on for me.

00:30:37:07 - 00:30:45:15
Maddy Mandell
But I can also put in perspective, you know, what's happening, around about as well. So yeah, both sides of that I definitely relate to.

00:30:45:17 - 00:30:47:19
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we really do need each other for that stuff.

00:30:47:19 - 00:31:08:01
Jess Quak 
I like even having people for that accountability of who you need time online. Have you been getting time online? Exactly. Last time I spoke to you, you had it, you know, looking great. Have you had a day off recently and then. Yeah. Having. Yeah. Those people who I. Yeah. You know, who are all for you and love you and I'm willing to say the hot stuff.

00:31:08:06 - 00:31:10:20
Dave Quak 
They can tell you that you look haggard but they do it with a smile.

00:31:10:22 - 00:31:12:14
Jess Quak 
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:12:16 - 00:31:31:13
Dave Quak 
So for you guys, you both had a time where you were okay, like, feeling cold hurdles ahead. And I'm not saying there's not further hurdles, but right now, Jess, your senior pastor of a church, planted another church doing lots of speaking. You kind of live in the hurdle like, you.

00:31:31:13 - 00:31:32:13
Jess Quak 
Know, on the other side, the.

00:31:32:13 - 00:31:52:14
Dave Quak 
Other side of the hurdle. You know, on the other side. Maddie, you're taking care of the development of the young adults in our movement, which is so vital because leadership development, as you would be all over is so important because they're just not coming through like they did 20 years ago. Like when I was a Bible college, there was a whole gaggle of us, yeah, who were like, itching to be pastors.

00:31:52:14 - 00:32:09:06
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we were at my friend Steph's church at the moment, and he was there, and there was heaps of us, and it was like, come on, let's do this. Yeah. They're not there now. Yeah. And so you're on the other end of the hurdle in the sense that you're mentoring basically most of the next generation leaders and stuff.

00:32:09:06 - 00:32:28:12
Dave Quak 
So what's it like being on the other end of the hurdle? I know there's more hurdles coming, but at least now you're like living what you feel called to. You'll hear the answer to that question and a lot more discussion with Mattie and Jess next week. In the meantime, if you want to grow deeper in your faith and mental wellbeing, we've got a 28 day course called Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health.

00:32:28:14 - 00:32:41:10
Dave Quak 
It's only 28 bucks and it is helping people all over the world connect with God and also grow in their mental wellbeing. So check that out. Otherwise, come back next week and hear the rest of the chat with Jason. Maddy. God bless and have a good week.