Moses And The Weight Of Leadership

Ever felt called and crushed at the same time? We dig into the life of Moses to explore how real leadership stretches the soul, from a childhood of unlikely rescue to the desert where calling and capacity collide. We talk about what happens when influence grows faster than your systems, why “what you’re doing is not good” can be the most freeing feedback you’ll ever receive, and how honest prayer becomes a lifeline when the crowd starts grumbling.

Together we trace Moses’ formation: a man torn between palace privilege and a wounded people, learning identity in the wilderness before being sent back into the fire. We unpack the paradox all leaders face—impact that inspires and pressure that frays your mind—and we name the moments that bruise the deepest: public criticism, private betrayal, and even family turning against you. From Jethro’s practical wisdom to the seventy elders sharing the weight, we show how sustainable leadership is built on limits, team, and trust. We also call out the quiet saboteur in many of us: accumulated anger. Moses’ missteps warn us that resentment leaks into choices unless we process pain with God and set clear boundaries.

You’ll leave with five grounded practices for your mental health as a leader: accept your limits, say hard things to God, watch for accumulated anger, share the weight, and keep leading after disappointment. Moses never stepped into the promised land, yet he blessed the people and raised Joshua. That kind of legacy reframes success away from applause and toward alignment with God’s voice. If you’re a pastor, teacher, manager, or parent carrying others through hard terrain, this conversation offers language for your struggle and courage for your next step.

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Transcript

Series Close And Why Moses

Dave Quak 0:00

Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. On this show we speak about life and faith in our mental well-being. And over the last six or seven weeks, Jess Quack and I have been pulling apart the lives of all different biblical heroes and also looking at what's going on in their mental well-being as they lead, or as their prophets, or as their wedding for kids, or all different reasons. And so we feel like it's been going pretty good. Jess, do you think it's going alright?

Jess Quak 0:23

Yeah, it's always good to see what there is. Um, and yeah, pulling apart different things of the Bible and taking a close look. Yeah.

Dave Quak 0:32

Well, this is our last week for this actual series. We're gonna finish after this week, and today we're looking at Moses. Because Moses had a lot going on in his world. He wasn't one who just sat back and watched the, you know, the world go by in the Nile River or anything like that. He was in amongst it all. And can I just declare straight away that I love it when Moses is sick of leadership? Because I sometimes feel really sick of leadership too.

Moses’ Formation And Early Wounds

Jess Quak 0:59

Yeah. He's got a really interesting story of development. And, you know, like when we were talking about, you know, David and about Peter, you know, you get to see a little bit more of the inner working of what's going on with Moses, particularly as um, you know, many people think he he authored a lot of you know the first five books of the Bible. So um there's a lot of his inner thoughts going on on the page, so we can kind of see a bit of that too, and see this humongous journey that he's been on. Um, he really is a a sort of big part of the biblical and historical timeline when um when we're looking at, you know, what does it look like to walk with God? What does it look like to be a people of God? Uh, how does it look to respond to different situations? Who how are we being formed? Who are we being created to be? And Moses is sort of working a lot of that stuff out with the people of God um through some really difficult times.

Dave Quak 2:00

Yeah. And it's funny because we live in an age where everyone would love to have more leadership and more influence, you know, be more well known, be have more followers and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah.

Dave Quak 2:12

But I know there's times in Moses' life where he is just like, dude, can you just take these people away? You know, where he doesn't want more responsibilities and he doesn't want more leadership. And I resonate, 'cause I have a love-hate relationship with leadership. Because on one hand, you get to influence people towards God and to, you know, things of the Holy Spirit and towards good things. Yeah. But on the other hand, they get to into influence you towards insanity and anxiety. And you know, it's like it's a both both end. Yeah. And leadership comes r with responsibilities. Like, you know, every time you've got something growing, the good people are growing, and also the annoying people are growing in amongst that. And the difficult people, and the people that want to correct you all the time, and all those other things. You know, and there's people who do it from a lovely heart, people who do it from a pharisaic heart, some people are wolves in sheep's clothing, and you've got to deal with all of that. And then Moses has to do it with like a million crew that he's called to lead. It would be insanity.

The Burden And Paradox Of Leadership

Jess Quak 3:12

Yeah, he's got a lot on his shoulders, and he actually never asked for it. That's one thing that's really interesting with Moses is that he's chosen, but not by himself, he is um just someone who God has put favour on and to go, you know what, you're gonna be the dude. And it happens from a really young age, but it does mean that his time of formation from a like from day dot is just um challenging, and particularly given the calling that he had upon his life, he had a he had a bit to work out. Like, if it had not been for his mother, for his sister, for the the daughter of Pharaoh, and you know, a few other women in there, including the midwives and stuff, he wouldn't have even lived past childhood because many of his peers didn't. They were murdered at a very young age, and his mum had faith to put him in the Nile, and and God had favour on him, but it also meant that he was there, this Israelite kid who had this connection to his biological family who were still in slavery, who were still being oppressed, while he himself lived in the palace, um, a completely different culture, um, and a way of life and a way of being, and he had to sort of try and figure that out, and he, you know, young adult used didn't do very well with that. He uh tried to fight injustice by you know killing a guy, um, and then goes and flees. And it's interesting to me to see how Moses goes out and he does his own sort of formation journey. He goes into the wilderness, you know, he meets his his wife and his wife's family, and he meets God there, and he learns what God wants from him, and he kind of does his whole journey before being called back into Egypt, the place where things are pretty difficult for him. He didn't want to go, he he wasn't he didn't have confidence or self-assurance or anything. And God's just like, you I'm gonna I'm picking you. And then he's called to take an entire nation almost through the same journey that he just went through.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah.

Jess Quak 5:48

Of okay, we find our identity in God and who he is, and a revelation of who he is, and we go through that, and so he does it himself, and then he's called to take a whole people through that, and um and it's rough, like it's really rough, and he has a a lot of times when he's just surrounded by people who are just grumbling and accusing him all the time, you know, he's got this great relationship with God, but everyone else is questioning God, hurling insults at God, and just that consistent why did you rescue us?

Dave Quak 6:31

Yeah, why did you take us out of slavery, you mean lads back? Yeah, it is crazy, and then he gets to a place where he hasn't sort of like formed any kind of delig you know, designation of who can rule on what. So the Bible says he just basically spends all day, every day, just ruling, yeah, arbitering, you know, just saying, This is what you do, this is what and so his um father-in-law comes along, which is pretty cool because I like my father-in-law, your dad's a legend. Yeah. Jethro comes along and he says, What you're doing is not good, you're gonna wear yourself out. And I think so much of the times when we're messing our lives up in leadership, especially when it comes to our mental well-being, it's because of what Jethro says. What we are doing is not good. You're gonna wear yourself out.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Yeah.

Dave Quak 7:23

You know, there's something about leadership that kind of like draws you into this un how it's like a it's a chasm that doesn't end. The jobs never end. There's always more people, there's always more opportunities, people are always gonna knock on your door.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah.

Dave Quak 7:39

And unless you do something about that, you will wear yourself out.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Yeah.

Dave Quak 7:43

You know, and that's the thing I don't love about leadership is it is exponential. Like we live on the Gold Coast where people are hungry for God, it seems, you know, that opportunities are here, people are moving here. If you don't stop, you can completely go all day every day.

Palace, Exodus, And Identity In God

Jess Quak 7:57

Yeah, the need is is never ending.

Dave Quak 8:00

Yeah.

Jess Quak 8:01

And for Moses, he's like, Well, this is my job. This is I gotta do it. But he had some wisdom come in and tap him on the shoulder, hey, yeah. There's a better way of doing this. You need to build a team. You need to you can't do this on your own.

Dave Quak 8:16

So he builds a team, all these people get put in place, which is cool. And then he has to oversee it almost like a pyramid, where some oversaw ten, some a hundred, and some a thousand. So that got put in place, but it's not long till he wigs out again. So in Numbers 11, um, Moses says these words to God. He says, like, why have you bought this trouble on your servant? I can't carry all these people by myself, the burden's too heavy. And then he gets a bit like Elijah Dark, and he's like, kill me here and now. Yeah. Like, that's not a um unusual prayer for someone in heavy leadership. God, can you just please wipe me out? I'd like to go to you now.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah.

Dave Quak 8:55

You know, he gets there, his compassion is like fatigued, he's trapped, he's suicidal, he's emotionally honest with God. Yeah. And the cool thing is, God doesn't kind of like rebuke him. He provides a way forward, right?

Grumbling People And Jethro’s Wisdom

Jess Quak 9:09

Yeah. Because I think some of the hardest things that he has to deal with in leadership, he's instituting new things and a new culture that these people don't know. And he is doing the journey along with them. Um, and so he's for it, he's got the vision, he he can sort of he knows that the path ahead is good because he trusts in God who is leading them. But he's got people around him that don't have that same thing. And then every now and again there is a whole crew who are meant to be on his team, who are meant to be on his side, like there's even a point at which his brother and sister turn on him and go, How come you get to be the one who does all this stuff? You know, you you're no better than we are. Why can't we have this same anointing? And then God's got to deal with them. And as much as that was God's fight there, and God took that fight on for him and came and had his back for Moses, that would have been really emotionally difficult to have to deal with wow, you guys. I thought you guys were for me. We've been doing this together for so long, and now this is what's going on. But it's interesting after that as well, you you then see often God's speaking to the people through Moses, and then it's almost like this little switch happens around then where then God begins speaking to Aaron directly. After Aaron loses his sons, and then God starts speaking to Aaron directly. Um there's also a really cool part in Numbers. Numbers eleven and Numbers eleven verse fourteen, Moses says, I'm not able to carry all these people alone, for they are too heavy for me. And then God actually gives his spirit, like it was limited at that point, how much the spirit could be poured out, but he actually takes some of that gifting that Moses was carrying and puts it in the leaders to then surround him. So that doesn't make it easier, like doing it as a team is so much better, but it doesn't mean that the team isn't also gonna let the leader down sometimes, and so for Moses he he carries a lot, but it's pretty cool that by the end of it he he becomes this guy who's just sold out for God, and he doesn't question who he is anymore. He's you know, at the very beginning of his journey, he he's like, Oh, I'm not very good at talking, I can't speak in front of people, you'll have to bring my brother to speak for me, all that sort of stuff. By the end, he's just standing up in front of the people, and like, you guys have had enough. Like, he's walking in his authority, he's walking in his understanding of God, and he has these incredible moments with God that make it worth it.

Dave Quak 12:25

But how painful to get there though. Like, you know, having your brother and sister against you in a public capacity like that, so overtly like undermining everything you're working on.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Yeah.

Dave Quak 12:36

Like that that I mean, we can say we'll get through that. But if it think about it right now, if that happens to you right now, picture your brother and sister or whatever your sibling situation is, them coming out against what you do as a pastor or what you do as a business person or whatever it is, mate, that's hard to get past. Like, I don't feel like that's a five-minute lesson. You know, and then all these clowns that he's trying to help, like, they are so ungrateful. Yeah. You know, like he's like rescued them, God's used him to rescue out of slavery, like making bricks and labor camps, and all of a sudden they're oh, we just wish we had stake. We'd like to go back.

Jess Quak 13:15

Yeah.

Dave Quak 13:16

You know, like I d I think one of the hardest things in leadership is getting past those wounds from people who you feel should know better.

Honesty With God And Sharing The Weight

Jess Quak 13:24

Yeah. And this is for all types of leadership too. Hey, it can even be like a teacher with some students, it can be a parent with children, it can be a pastor and the church, leader of a business, and and the co-workers where you just go, I have sacrificed so much for you, I've loved you so much, I've given up so much for you. And to then have someone turn around and not get it, or spit in your face, or misconstrue your um your motivations, or you know, whatever it might be, so tricky. That's really hard, but it is that the weight of leadership is that that's that's what it is. If you're just pointing people to Jesus and going, okay, well, they're not mature yet, but we're working our way towards that. That's that's why I'm the one that's leading them, because I am that step ahead in this in this situation, and so I've got to in some to some degree just take it, because Jesus did too.

Dave Quak 15:12

But how do you actually practically do it instead of tearing them down, calling them names, wishing their demise? Like practically speaking, say right now someone's against you and you're trying to lead them and you're doing it out of integrity, yeah. But you love these people, and you're trying to get them from point A to point B- in the power of the Holy Spirit, and then they're against you. Like, I reckon it's easier to say right now as we're on the podcast, but actually living it out without calling them names and stuff, it's different, man.

Betrayal, Boundaries, And Spiritual Maturity

Jess Quak 15:43

Yeah, it's it is really hard because you've got to deal with it sort of in two ways. You've got to deal with it from a personal level where you as a human being who is not perfect, you're going to be hurt. If you really care about someone and then they're gonna rip you to shreds or disappoint you, or whatever, you have to process that on that personal level. Um, and just be okay that sometimes it's gonna hurt. But then there's what leadership I think comes back to time and time again. It's a it is a sacrifice, it is an offering to God, it's an act of worship, and you know, there are some sacrifices that you would read about in the old testament where, say Passover, you eat the sacrifice, and it sort of embodies you, you're taking it on and being a part of it, but there are other sacrifices where you just give it over, or you pour it out, or you you hand it over and you let it go and it is gone. And some moments in leadership, I think, are like that where you go, This is me being poured out for you, God, and I know you see, and ultimately at the end of the day, I love these people because you have given me this love for them, but they're your people, and you're responsible for their their ultimate, you know, what happens with them, they're flourishing or they're not flourishing, that is between you and them. I've got to just have integrity about my role. I've got to have the humility to know that I'm not gonna do it perfectly and apologise when I need to as well. Mend fences where I can. Um but at the end of the day, pouring that out and going, This is what it is, this is what taking up my cross looks like. Like we live on the Gold Coast and we get to be pastors here, which is amazing, right? So some days, you know, being a pastor can look like having an amazing worship session or going out on a boat with with friends from our church who are family to us and and praying and marveling at how amazing the Lord has made the world, and it's just so beautiful. And other days it is um answering emails of of people who are like, I think that you guys are way off, I think that you've done this wrong, I think the way that we do church like this is um is something God is displeased with, or I think like and having to have that, or or hearing rumors like this person thinks you suck, this person thinks you're whatever. Um people who you love and either way, both ends of that spectrum is still well, it's unto God, it's his. That's hard.

Dave Quak 18:49

Both of God's yeah.

Jess Quak 18:50

It's hard, but I think that that's what spiritual maturity in leadership looks like.

Dave Quak 18:55

Yeah. And I think that probably just points a bit to Moses as well, where you know, there's the season in his life where he's carrying everyone and he can't get away from people, and it's heavy in that way, but then he climbs Sinai alone. And so he goes from ministering to everyone on all things to actually having to go do stuff by himself, carrying the burden alone, mediating between God and man. And while he's up there, after all the things he's done to sow into these people, they turn into r i idiots and make a flipping golden cuff.

Jess Quak 19:30

Yeah.

Dave Quak 19:30

Like you would come down, uh no wonder he went psycho. I would have gone way more psycho. I would have been asking God, please send some lightning down on these people. So, you know, it's like he's got this leadership mantle that it's like it's you you can't win. He can't win if he's with people, he can't win if he's away from people, you know, and it just continues for his whole life. Like he just gets peppered.

Jess Quak 19:54

Yeah.

Sinai, Idolatry, And Leadership Pain

Dave Quak 19:54

You know, and I guess that's the truth. Sometimes people in leadership get peppered. It's your life calling, it's what you've been set apart to do and what God's asked of you, and you've got to do it.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Yeah.

Dave Quak 20:05

You do, I feel like you have the option to walk away in the sense of like it's not like we're robotic and you must step up that Sinai. But if you do walk away, you know you've walked out of the will of God, so you don't want to walk away, walk away.

Jess Quak 20:18

Yeah.

Dave Quak 20:18

It's almost like you don't want to walk away, but you don't want to walk.

Jess Quak 20:21

Yes. Red Tard is like, God, if I'm walking, I'm walking in your strength, you've got to help me do this, because some days are hard. And look, that's that's often life, hey. And we're gonna have hard times and hard seasons, and it can be something that you don't choose for yourself, and it wouldn't go that way if it was up to you. Um, but knowing that God as well can use all of those things for his good and that really it's a it's a it's a whole question that God continually asks us and sort of knocks on our hearts, will you trust me with this? Will you trust me with this? Will you make this my problem, not your problem? Will you will you hand this over to me? Will you continue to serve faithfully because you're serving me, you're not serving the person in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah.

Jess Quak 21:14

Umly in all that you do, it's it is that act of worship.

Dave Quak 21:20

It is, and I think that's the only thing that's gonna save you from losing your mind and and your mental well-being in leadership. You have to know that it's God who's called.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah.

Dave Quak 21:30

You know, you have to know this is higher than you, otherwise you will not make it.

Jess Quak 21:34

No.

Dave Quak 21:35

I don't think there's any leader who's made it on their own strength.

Jess Quak 21:38

No.

Dave Quak 21:38

And that's when they fall, man, is when their own strength runs runs out.

Jess Quak 21:42

Yeah, and it's when you fall and and you fall hard. But when you grow, you grow fast too.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yeah.

Running To God Or Numbing Out

Jess Quak 21:48

Because you have so many opportunities to keep coming back to God, coming back to God, coming back to God. It's almost like you're doing an intensive rather than just a long season of something. You are just being pushed into it time and time again. So you go, will you run to God or will you run, will you try and escape? Will you run to God or will you try and numb the pain? Will you run to God or will you like it's this constant, will you run, will you run back to me? Will you come back to me? It's me. Um, and then you see Moses, he came back to God each and every time, and he got to speak to God as if with a friend. And you get to see then his his life honored throughout the rest of history. You get to see uh Moses's legacy, right? And you get to see, you know, even in the transfiguration, you know, you just Moses, like, he's in eternity, like probably hearing, you know, well done, good and faithful servant. Like that's at the end of the day, you've got to be if you're in any kind of Christian ministry, that's gotta be your payoff.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah.

Jess Quak 23:01

Like if you're looking for fulfillment and satisfaction, that's gotta be the one you're looking for. Because if you're looking for any kind of yay and adulation from people, you're gonna fall and you're gonna fall hard.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah.

Jess Quak 23:17

Because that's not what you're there for. And that's not what they need from you. And if you do that, you're probably not leading them in the right way. Like, let's be honest. Like, if your children never have a problem with your parenting, you're probably not doing you know, something, you've probably got some things that you're not doing right. Like you've there's probably some boundaries that you should have put down for their benefit that you haven't. Yeah. Like it's not easy, it's quite difficult. But it is good too, like we see with Moses that it's also one of those things, you're not doing it alone because God's doing it with you.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah.

Jess Quak 23:56

And you're not doing it alone because He actually wants you to be putting people around you to help encourage you and to stand by you and uplift you. And yes, sometimes those people are gonna be the very people who let you down. Yes, but not always.

Five Practices For Leader Mental Health

Dave Quak 24:15

That's it. Um, I was just thinking I've got five points of application for anyone who is leading, whether it be church, work, business, teaching, whatever you're doing, um, just to keep your mental health in check. Because that's ultimately we want to see people first connect to God, but also make it mentally. So the first thing I said is accept your limits. Exodus 18 was Moses coming to a place where he learnt his limits were beyond him. The the the actions that he was participating in were too much, and he needed to pull it back. And so if you're overcommitted, if you've got too many fingers in too many pies, take some um, you know, advice from Jethro and appoint people to help you out. You know, set up support networks, set up support systems, but make sure you accept your limits because limits don't make you a loser, they just make you human. Yeah. And if you run within those limitations, you're gonna you're gonna run for a lot longer. So that's number one. Number two, say hard things to God. Say hard things to God. Moses told God, I can't carry this, kill me now. God's not afraid of your unveiled, unashamed, like just unfiltered words. You can come to him with like a psalm of lament and just speak your heart to God. And I encourage you to do so. Say hard things to God. Maybe you want someone to get lost, maybe you're struggling, maybe you're burning out. Tell him about it. He wants to help you. Um, number three, watch for accumulated anger. You see a couple of times where Moses's frustrations at the people kind of flowed into his actions. You see it in Numbers 20 when he hits the rock and just different things. Like he just a couple of times doesn't handle the accumulated anger very well. And I would encourage anyone who's in leadership who has a mantle to carry, to not let anger grow inside you. I know as a leader myself, that's where my downfall happens, is when I fester and I get angry at a person and hate on them rather than just handle the situation. Wish their demise instead of solve the problem. And so that's a big one. Number four, and it's sort of already been said a lot today, but share the weight. You know, God spreads his spirit among those seventy elders, as you mentioned before, Jess. And so the very power of God was dispersed, so it wasn't one person. You know, they got a taste of the spirit and it helped them. You know, it's not meant to be about being solitary or on a pedestal, it's like that in-between where you're like with the people, but leading the people from within, not above, sort of thing. Yeah. So share the weight. And then lastly, I think Moses is a good example of someone who kept leading after disappointment.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah.

Final Encouragement And Closing Prayer

Dave Quak 27:11

Um, he didn't enter the promised land. That was his call to deliver the Israelites, and he never entered the promised land, but he still mentors Joshua, and he still blesses the people.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah.

Dave Quak 27:25

And I think that's really powerful. Like, in leadership there will be disappointments, and there will be times that you will be tempted to be broken, and um you'll want to withdraw or fight or flight or fawn or whatever your response is, right? But there's something to be said about someone who still leads after disappointment and doesn't do so begrudgingly, but still wants the best for those he or she leads. So I think those things are worth keeping in mind.

Jess Quak 27:55

Yeah, they're great.

Dave Quak 27:57

Jess, in a moment we're gonna get you to pray, but do you have any last and final thoughts for our delightful friends on the podcast before we finish out this series?

Jess Quak 28:06

Yeah, just if you are someone at the moment who's just feeling the weight that you have to carry as you carry those other people in your world, I just want to encourage you to bring those people to God and and remember that they are more his people than they are yours.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah.

Jess Quak 28:27

And he cares more for them than you ever could. And he cares more for you than you even could ever hope or imagine. So take on his rest and his peace and his strength and his love, because he wants to give that to you as you continue to just faithfully be obedient to him.

Dave Quak 28:49

Yeah. Jess Quack, as we round out our Biblical Heroes and Mental Well-being series, if you could pray for us to be done, that would be so delightful.

Jess Quak 28:59

Thank you. Thank you, Lord God, for your word. Thank you that you work within each of us in our worlds just so differently and so uniquely, and just it's beautiful. The whole, the whole lot of it when you pull it together, this tapestry of lives coming together and intersecting. And for each of the listeners today, Lord God, I just bless them. I bless them for their own journey with you, and I pray, Lord God, for your strength and hope, for the tenacity that comes from your spirit within, bringing just clarity on the path forward and conviction that continues to walk through each and every part of the journey, knowing that you are the one leading. Yeah, just we thank you, Lord God, for your blessing over us in Jesus' name.

Dave Quak 30:01

Amen. Amen.