The Pressure to Be Perfect Is Killing Your Faith (Part 1) | Sarah Wiseman

She expected shame and found love instead. Sarah Wiseman joins us to talk about the kind of faith that doesn’t wait for you to get polished, cleaned up, or “qualified” before God shows up. We trace her story from being the responsible church kid to hitting a wall of heartbreak, addiction, and the party lifestyle, then walking back into church and realizing grace meets you while you’re still messy. If you’ve ever thought, “Once I fix this, then I’ll come back to God,” this conversation offers a different path.

We also dig into the hard, modern reality of doing ministry while managing mental health. Sarah opens up about anxiety and depression, the sting of online criticism, and the exhausting pressure some Christians feel to sound perfect theologically. We talk about why weakness is not disqualifying, why one harsh comment can drown out a thousand kind ones, and why character matters more than influence. For anyone searching for a Christian mental health podcast that actually feels human, we keep it honest without turning it into despair.

Then the discussion gets intensely practical: panic attacks in public, telling your kids “I’m anxious” instead of barking orders, and the complicated world of pregnancy mental health. Sarah shares her experience with prenatal anxiety and depression, PMDD, progesterone intolerance, and medication decisions while pregnant, plus the guilt and identity loss that can come with those seasons. We also talk about Scripture as a real support in the fight, while still making room for the seasons where you don’t have the strength to fight at all.

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Transcript

Welcome To Sunburn Souls

Dave Quak 0:00

Well, welcome to Sunburn Souls. On this show we speak about life and faith and our mental well-being. And I am super stoked to have my friend Sarah Wiseman here today. Seba, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hi, I'm good. How are you? I'm so good. Thanks for coming in. I am so excited to be here. I've been listening to your podcast for a while and I just absolutely love your honesty, your heart. I'm so excited.

Dave Quak 0:21

Well, I think

Starting A Vulnerable Podcast

Dave Quak 0:22

I know why you do it's because you do it too. Yeah. How are you feeling about that?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Oh, I'm just glad I finally did it. I've honestly been talking about it for years. And just all the start was it's hard to get it out there, you know? Like it feels like I think when you talk like you and I tend to do, and it's literally like hard on your sleeve kind of stuff. When you put it out there, it feels really vulnerable. Because you you it's your heart. Um, there's no like facade or whatever. But now that I've done it, I'm just I'm glad I have. And I'm glad my first episodes were my kids. That made it really easy.

Dave Quak 0:59

Oh, so good. I didn't watch all three, but I definitely looked into the poppy one, your daughter. She's a best what a delightful young human she is.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, blows me away.

Dave Quak 1:08

Oh man, like not only does she look like your little mini mini, like the cheap pool is chopping your body.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

It's a compliment to me, but I hope she loves it. But it's amazing. Yeah.

Dave Quak 1:19

No, but she was insightful and cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Oh man, what a cool daughter. The confidence in her blows my mind. She is a trophy of grace, that girl.

Dave Quak 1:27

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, I'm really proud of her.

Dave Quak 1:28

Oh, praise God, Trophy of Grace is such a good mind, too, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, well, it's funny because when we were gonna name her, I had all these other names and I just couldn't get Poppy off my mind. But I'm like, it's not biblical, it's not like scriptural, and you know, being all super Christian about it. And then it wasn't until a dedication um my husband looked up like why the poppy flower is the Anzac flower. And it was all about how um they say it's red because it was a symbol of the blood that was shed for our freedom, like during the war, and it was a symbol of redemption, and so yeah, we just say she's our little red poppy.

Dave Quak 2:02

Love it, and it's a cute name, too.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

It's so cute. So cute it suits her so well.

Dave Quak 2:06

Oh, it really does. And I see as well, I've got a pillow on my lap because I'm a cuddler, and so do you. You got one as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I'm snuggling pillows, so well, yeah.

Dave Quak 2:14

I mean, especially if we get to talk deep today, having a little pillow there is gonna be a little bit healthy.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I don't really know how to do anything else.

Dave Quak 2:19

So yeah, no. And that's why I asked you, Sarah. Is because I mean we can talk about the weather all day long, or we can get into why we're you know, faith and mental health and the messiness that is that.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I know small talk's not my forte. No, I can't help it.

Dave Quak 2:34

No, but as you know, it is about faith and mental health. Why don't we just quickly, before we hear oh, a pillow, a feather just came out of the pillow. That's amazing. Um, you know, before we talk about your mental health expertise and passions, faith, how did you meet Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Oh

Addiction And The Way Back

SPEAKER_00 2:49

well, I loved Jesus since I was a little girl. So I grew up in a Christian home. And it's funny, like, I I found a um note the other day that I wrote as a little girl, like, Jesus, I just love you so much. I wish everyone knew how great you were and all this stuff. And then I don't know, I was such a good girl all through high school, just tried to live by the rules, right? I just wanted to be like a good kid, which was worse, you know. I just had this desire to for God to just be so impressed by me. And as always, you figure out that's impossible. Like you can never be perfect. And then I think I just got so discouraged with the reality of like, oh, I'm never gonna nail this. And then I went through some heartbreaks and you know, all the stuff you go through as a teenager, and I kind of just gave up. I was like, well, if I can't do it perfect, I won't do it at all. And then because I do everything on an 11 Dave, I kind of like I fell hard and fast into drugs, alcohol, addiction, just all the things, the party lifestyle, um, for a good couple of years, and then I just got to this point where I was such a mess. Um, you know how it is, like you've got pain, you try to fill it with all the things except Jesus, and you find out pretty quickly, like that's not gonna work. And so um, yeah, my brother literally had to come fish me out of a gutter one night, and he wasn't even a churchgoer, but he sat me down and was like, You need to go back to church or you're gonna die. I was like, I was like, Yeah, I guess so. And I went in. My oldest brother was beautiful and invited me to his church, and so I went in and um I was expecting to feel shame. I was expecting to just feel so broken. And just from the minute the worship started, all I felt was love. And I felt beautiful for the first time in like years, my whole life, really. I felt this, and so funny, like for years I well, for years, sorry, for the next few months, I kept partying, but then every Sunday morning I was like, I have to go to church. Like, and then I got to this point where I realized, oh, this high is better than any of these other highs I'm chasing. And I remember the last time I ever took drugs, it was because I tried it the night before, got two hours sleep, and was like, I gotta go to church. And then I walked in and I felt the love of God like every time.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

And I remember asking God years later, why didn't you just like take the addiction away straight away? Why didn't you just like heal me of that instantly? And he said to me something I'll never forget. He was like, I needed you to know that I wasn't too proud to compete for your addiction. And I needed you to know that being addicted to me was gonna be better than any other.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

And he did. He he showed me like you can try all these other things, but nothing will make you feel as good and make you feel as loved as I will. And yeah, I was like, I just gave it all up and was like, absolutely not. I don't need any of that. I don't want it. I just want

Brokenness And Ministry Belong Together

SPEAKER_00 5:43

him.

Dave Quak 5:43

I love that. What I especially love is that he was still lavishing his, you know, grace and love on you, even while you were messy.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Uh-huh.

Dave Quak 5:50

Because so often we think, oh, well, you know, once I'm cleaned up, I'll go back to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Oh, even as Christians, I think we still do that. We like, oh, I gotta sort this attitude out. I don't want to go do devotions or be a hypocrite because I've been like yelling at my kids or fighting with my husband. When really it's like we gotta take the mess into the secret place and that's where it gets fixed. Yeah. Rather than fixing it before we can go in to the sec to the secret place. Do you know what I mean?

Dave Quak 6:13

Yep. One of your instances that rocked me a few weeks ago was you were in the shops and it rattled. And you started crying in the clip. But even in the messiness of that that you were praying, and I still think we have a long way to go in the church with learning how to collide love and grace with brokenness and heartache. They just need to smash into each other, then we've got hope, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

They do. And it's funny because I think when I first came back to the Lord, I was so aware of that, and it's just interesting. Like, the longer I'm a Christian, the more I've found it's a battle to hold on to that revelation. Like it's okay to still be broken. Like, even last year I met up with someone and had lunch or whatever, and I just shared with them like some tough stuff I was going through. Nothing sinful, nothing whatever. And then I found out months later that they'd been like, they'd gone and talk spoken to someone else and said, like, oh, she shouldn't be doing ministry, she's too broken. And that rocked me because I was like, oh, that's the lie I think that comes after all of us is like you cannot be broken and help people. You can't be broken and talk about Jesus. But it's like, doesn't that cheapen what he did on the cross if we're absolutely if we're like, yeah, God showed me that once me just looking at the cross and being like, thanks, but no thanks. Like appreciate it, but I'm just gonna try and work this out and not need that. And it's like, why did he do it then? You know?

Dave Quak 7:37

That's right. And then along those lines, who'd be qualified? I don't have a friend who'd be qualified for ministry. Paul wouldn't have been qualified. None of the Bible does.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

I love in Second Corinthians, he's like, I will boast more proudly in my weakness, you know, because yeah, it's what qualifies us. Yeah. And keeps us like like realistic and able to connect with people, I think.

Dave Quak 7:59

Yeah, absolutely. And I've noticed that you do connect with a lot of people, you know, like you are all all your socials are with someone, or you're always doing something. But I know it's not just because you like hanging out and getting coffee, it's because you've got an intentional mission on your life that you're taking seriously.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Next day. Yeah, I I do. I promise myself after, you know, finding the Lord again on my terms, I was like, I will never. Makes me a bit emotional. I never want anyone to not know like that they were they deserve this love, you know, because I walked into that church so broken, so I felt so ugly and like nothing worthy of love. Not anything I'd done was worthy of love. And I always say it was like God looked at me in this pile of mud and called me beautiful, and he just kept saying it over and over again, and then I slowly became like more and more beautiful. And I just want to look at everybody and make sure they feel that too, you know?

Dave Quak 8:55

Like, yeah. It's so good because out of that revelation that Jesus makes you beautiful, you don't just speak then words that don't have any power, like they come with the clout.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

It has to come from a place of revelation.

Dave Quak 9:09

Because that verse you mentioned later on says that you know, he boasts in his weaknesses, but then he says at the end, but my power is made perfectness. In the week. Your power is made perfect in the weak. That's like God's power. When we can embrace it and not try to hide from it, that's where the power lies.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Totally. And I think that's where a lot of Christians shortchange themselves because I was even thinking about that this afternoon. Like, I think when we get saved and Jesus becomes our everything, it's like he becomes our standard, but he was perfect, right? Like he was our example, but I don't know if he wanted to be a source of shame, like you'll never be as perfect as me, you know. Like he literally died so we'd never feel that shame. But I think sometimes in churches we get so focused on like, oh, I have to be like Jesus, and we fail. And that's where I think a lot of judgment comes from because we feel so like I'm failing. Oh, well, they're failing too. Oh, well, you're failing at this. And it's like, yeah, but when we can sit in that awareness, we can allow others to sit in that awareness of their brokenness too. Does that make sense?

Dave Quak 10:09

Yeah. And so, so you obviously love Jesus and your family. We've talked about those, and you light up when you hear about both of those.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah, I do.

Motherhood As A Training Ground

Dave Quak 10:18

Um, but you've got also a a real heart to minister to people too. Hey, can you tell us more about where you feel like God's taking you in the realm of like, you know, your ministry, your helping, your anointing, that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah, well, it's funny. When I first came back to the Lord, I was like, I won't I want to be the next Joyce Meyer. Not because I wanted to be famous. I was like, I want to tell millions and millions of people about this feeling. I want them to know that God loves them. And I was like, and then, you know, I got all these prophetic words and I was so excited. And I was like, that's it, I'm just gonna change the world. And um, you know, then life happens and God's like, oh, let's go a little deeper and bring out some of the stuff that still needs healing. And you're like, oh my gosh, it's a bit horrific. And um, and so then I don't know, I didn't get discouraged, but I think I just more was like, you know, you get married and that just shows you all of your issues. Then you have kids, and then it's like you a million more mirrors in your face, like, whoa. And I remember just thinking, you know what, like I think I'll just I'm just gonna be a mum. Like that's my ministry. Um, even now I struggle to even like say the path God has me on because I I could I don't think there's anything more important I will do in life than raise my kids because especially in this world, the enemy's coming after them. Like he wants he wants them. And I just think um that is my number one ministry, but I I just really want to make sure people, you know, as they're growing, I'm like, I I do still have a heart to like, you know, make sure just people know that they're loved, that they're that God is like so passionately in love with them. And I remember one time sitting at my kitchen table one breakfast morning when the kids were little and I had like literally vomit on me and someone screaming, someone else is yelling out to wipe their bum.

Dave Quak 12:11

I was like, probably had the mum haircut as well with all the hair.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

I was balding, and I was sitting there and I was like, I had dreams, God. Like I was like, remember Joyce Meyer? Because her pre her teaching like really helped me out of addiction, all this stuff. So I was like, God, I had dreams and I I felt like I'd just been forgotten, you know? And I remember in that moment, God saying, I haven't set you aside, I've set you apart. And I was like, what does that mean? And then I heard I heard him say, This is a training ground. Like, nothing will teach you more about patience than parenting. Nothing will teach you more about honor and humility and like how to do ministry than serving your family. And he was like, Those dreams are okay to still have. And I do, I do still have a dream in my heart to reach as many people as I can with the love of God. But I think right now I'm still learning how to be able to do that from a healthy place, and my kids are teaching me that. So whatever that looks like is up to God. I don't have this desire to like seek influence or whatever, which is why I struggle with the gram. I don't know if you do sometimes, but it's like it can be a place where everyone goes to be seen, and like, yeah, I want all these followers. Like, that's not my heart. But at the same time, I feel like, sorry, am I talking a lot? My answer's way too long.

Dave Quak 13:31

No, we've got an hour. We got an hour, Sarah. Let's keep going. I want to hear this.

Why Christians Should Use Social Media

SPEAKER_00 13:36

But like, um, I remember God saying to me one time, because I was like, God, I feel called to social media, but ever all Christians are like, it's from the devil, and I get it. But God said to me, Sarah, can you imagine looking at a disciple in the face right now and being like, I can tell someone about Jesus on the other side of the world right now, I don't have to go anywhere. What would they say? They'd be like, do it, man, do it. We had to walk for days. Like, and then God said to me, you know, Jesus went where the broken people were. And in your generation, they're all on their phones. They're scrolling, looking for hope, looking for something, an answer, and they're finding so much of what the enemy wants them to find. Christians have to be on there too, giving them hope, sharing something other than that. So that's why I do what I do. That's my ministry right now, because I can do it while I'm serving my family.

Dave Quak 14:28

So yeah. I think it is powerful. Like, you know, every time some new advancement in technology happens, God uses it and the enemy uses it at once. 100%. You know, even the printing press back when the Bibles were first printed. Yeah. They were also printing heretical stuff too. You know, and so yeah, no, I think I personally see it as seed. Like, I don't love social media, I'm hopeless at it. I do dad moves where I'll just do embarrassing things and the kids would be like, Dad, you don't do that. And then, you know, but so I on one hand I hate it, but at the same time, some of people have found this this podcast because of social media.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

So And and it can come with a lot of criticism. Like I've received a lot of that over the years. But I started it because you have. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um sorry, what sort?

Dave Quak 15:51

Like what kind of thing? What sort of criticism?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yeah. The most random things, Dave. Anything from like one person said,

Criticism That Cuts Deep

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Oh, I had to unfollow you because I can't stand your mum voice. And I'll listen, I'll look back on videos and I'm like, wow, Sarah, calm down. But when my kids were tiny, I was like, what did you hear? Like, it's irritating. Well, you were a mum and you had a voice. And I was obsessed with my kids. And the reason I did what I did was because I was scrolling through, like seeing all these perfect mums in their perfect homes. And I was like, is anyone else covering vomit? Like, so I thought someone's gonna be out there showing sharing what it's really like. Yeah. And I did, and the more I did that, mums were like, thank you, oh my gosh. Um, and then other times it's like, oh man, some of it really, if I'm honest, in the last year or two has cut me real deep. And it's been hard to keep going because it's like coming after theologies, and like, again, that comment, you're too broken. And I am not a theological genius, Dave. Like, I will own that. The amount of times I'll say to my husband, you know, like that part in the Bible where this guy, you know, with Moses and the bush, but then the staff and the, you know, like I'm not that bad anymore. I've really worked on it. But it's like, I feel there are a lot of people out there who know more than me theologically. And so, yeah, people have come after me, and even just like oh, last year was brutal. I don't know about anyone else, but last year was so brutal. I feel like the enemy came after my voice so intensely, and um, yeah, just someone copying my post and putting it in their post and just tearing it to shreds and like really, yeah, and it was all about trying to like show grace. So I don't know. I I don't know. It's hard. It is hard, it is hard. Like I said before, when you're putting your heart out there, it hurts more rather than if I was just trying to be impressive. But I really, I really do write from my heart, and so when people pull it to pieces, I first of all know they probably have a point because I'm like, I know I'm not perfect. Yeah, I know that could be theologically unsound, but then yeah, sometimes I look back on things I said when I was first saved and my heart was in the right place. Yeah. And I look back and I'm like, oh Sarah, that wasn't that wasn't correct. But I imagine God in that moment going, Oh honey, like you know, you really you really had your good intentions there. So it's I'm just learning to have that grace for myself again and just yeah, but the critics just always feel louder than the Why I don't like that either.

Dave Quak 18:19

Because I get very few critics, but when there's one, yeah, it feels louder than the thousand other good things I've heard.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Oh my gosh, I know. And when you struggle with mental health, yeah, you're already like Yeah, I'm already in my head about it. You're already trying to yeah, and it is hard, especially when you're talking about God, because I would never want to say something wrong about him or on behalf of him. Yeah. And that's where like every time I preach or like anything, I my husband's like, Hun, you why are you so nervous? Every time it goes well, and I'm like, it's a big deal to me to have a uh opportunity to say this is what I feel is on the heart of God. You know, I don't want to get that wrong.

Dave Quak 18:56

I feel like the moment we don't get nervous or don't get a little it's then that's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

That's true, that's true. Yeah.

Dave Quak 19:01

Because it's it is a big deal, it's the weight of the word of God, and yeah, there's a joy in it and it's fun and everything else, but it's also God's word. A hundred percent. You know, and we can butcher that.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

But that's why I love what you do, Dave. Like you talk honestly about yourself to a point where people know that like you know, God is your savior. You know what I mean? That's why I think I connect so much with what you do, because it's like I'm not here to say I'm I know everything and I'm perfect, but I hope that because I'm so imperfect, you can see where God is in you know, the weaknesses.

Dave Quak 19:33

No, that's it. You nailed it because sometimes I get afraid, say you go to a church and after church everyone's like, gee, that pastor's the best, and that worship was the best. And but no, no, God's the best. You know, like He's the one that always should be the hero of everything we ever do.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

A hundred percent. You know, and that yeah, yeah. I think that's what scares me about um about if I I don't know, you know how there's this desire again, like to gain all these followers and stuff, like that's a lot of pressure. Like you want to make sure you have the character. I prayed that years ago, like Lord, never let my gifting exceed my character, you know? Like never let um yeah, what I'm doing or my influence be greater than my character can handle because you see it everywhere now. Pastors who are it's everywhere at the time. Publicly humbled, which I think is God's grace and his kindness and he's doing that, but whew, like I wouldn't want to be in that position.

Dave Quak 20:31

No way. No. The other day you were in the shops and um had an anxiety attack.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I'm trying to remember when you're gonna be able to do that.

Dave Quak 20:37

Yeah, no, and your kids you took the kids on the journey.

Anxiety With Kids In Public

Dave Quak 20:39

So they were a bit younger. Yes, yes. So you were anxious and you're grinning and bearing it, uh-huh, and then took another angle and went, hang on, I'm gonna send you invite these guys and you explained it to them. Yeah. And they helped out and you got through the shop.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah.

Dave Quak 20:52

You know, like that that's the same for you, like that open vulnerability with something like anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah.

Dave Quak 20:58

So many of us are gone through the same sort of thing. Like statistically, one in five.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Wow.

Dave Quak 21:03

And we're just not we're all one in five of us are wigging out at the shops, not helping each other.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

We're at our kids. I know. It's so true. And that's why I wanted to explain it to my kids, because like I'm like, they can have two perspectives here. They can have a mum who's just barking orders at them and they're like, Why is she so mad?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Or they can learn even to have a bit of compassion, but also just like, oh wait, we're not the problem here. Like, mum's going through something.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

And I just said to them, like, I'm so anxious, guys. I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I'm gr it's making me cranky, but could you help? And yeah, the way that they responded so differently to that was so awesome.

Dave Quak 21:38

Yeah, they're equipped in it, are they? Yeah. Is anxiety a thing for you?

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Oh yeah. Like, yeah.

Pregnancy Depression And Hormones

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Um, yeah, I think anxiety, depression. Yeah. Sorry. Anxiety and depression has always been a bit of a combo for me. Um I probably had anxiety as a kid and had no idea. Like, I remember I used to say to my parents, like, Mum or Dad, like, I just have this feeling like something bad's gonna happen. And because, you know, as a kid you can't really work out where God fits and everything, I was like, is God trying to tell me? Like, is God trying to tell me like something bad's about to happen? And now I look back on like, oh, I think that was anxiety. And then as an adult, I would feel that. I'd be like, God, what I'd go looking for the thing. And Girl was like, I don't give a spirit of fear. So if you're feeling fear, it's not me prophetically telling you something bad's about to happen.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

So I was like, uh huh. Hey, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah, that was helpful, but yeah, I think it really uh rammed up in my pregnancies. That's when I really first battled with like intense anxiety and depression. Yeah.

Dave Quak 22:36

In pregnancies.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

So, Dave, I have been educated way too late on the subject, like literally after all my babies. Um, there's something called progesterone intolerance, which um when you're pregnant, and like um I've also been kind of diagnosed with something called PMDD, which is premenstrual dysphoria or dysphoric disorder.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

So it's basically PMS, but like steroids. All right. Yeah, so it just 10 times worse. Like it can be like anxiety attacks. So rather than being a bit irritable or crying a bit, it's like full depression, like rage, you know. And what my doctor, I finally found a good doctor, which some women listening to this will know how hard this is when you're dealing with hormone things and endometriosis and that. Like it is so hard to find a decent doctor. But she explained to me some women have like an intolerance to progesterone. And so when I was pregnant, you get like a spike in that. And I didn't even know when I was pregnant that um like I knew about postnatal depression and anxiety because everybody talks about that. I didn't know it could happen during pregnancy, and so I remember going for like one of my checkups with a midwife, and they make you fill out this survey and just mark like, How often do you feel this? And this is my second pregnancy, and I'm like, man, pregnancies are rough. Like, I couldn't understand these glowing women who are.

Dave Quak 23:59

Yeah, there's some that just love it and glow and walk around. Those people make me sick. No, I'm kidding. And then the haggard ones.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Oh, I was haggard.

Dave Quak 24:06

My wife was a haggard one, she'd admit it, man.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

But I just like I remember asking, like, with my first pregnancy, am I gonna love this baby? Because I couldn't feel and there wasn't I had no context for it. But my second one was really, really hard. And so to the point where like I I considered just ending I could like I was trying to figure out ways I could save his life and not yours. Yeah, because I was like, I felt trapped in this. I started having panic attacks, I'd never had them in my life. Um, it was awful. And so I went to this appointment and this nurse was like, I'm I was like answering all the questions about mental health, because it's just a scan screen they do kind of thing. And I I was like, you know, pregnancy. And then she marked it up and had all the scores, and she was like, Honey, like, are you okay? Oh wow I was like, Well, you know, pregnancy. She was like, This is not normal in pregnancy. And I was like, Oh, I wish I'd known that for my last one. I don't know if it was worse because I was carrying boys. That's uh just a little theory I've come up with, but um yeah, my my second two pregnancies were really intense. Um yeah, it was just really hard. So that's when I first was like, that became a big fight for me. And honestly, the second pregnancy almost took me out. But the third pregnancy, which was God planned, after the second one, I was like, I don't think I can ever do that again. And then when I fell pregnant a third time, it f honestly felt like a death sentence. I was like, oh, I might not survive this. But I knew from day one, I either let this kill me basically, or I fight it. And I made a choice like from that very early on. I was like, I've got to fight this. And in that I learned more about the Bible and the power of God's word and the power of like declaration and all of that than ever in my walk with God.

Dave Quak 25:57

Yeah. That's really hectic.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

It was hectic, yeah.

Dave Quak 26:00

Yeah, but I mean hectic that you didn't you weren't aware of that in the first one. Hectic that the second one it was worse, but the first one existed already. Uh-huh. So you still had to look after Poppy. She's the oldest here.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Yeah.

Dave Quak 26:12

You know, and like you still had to look after her as well as sorting out that.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Oh, and it was bad because I was like, I just couldn't get out of bed. I had like it was like showering myself felt like the hardest thing I was gonna do in the date, plus having a toddler, and then I just couldn't get dressed after like it was so and I felt like I was failing pregnancy. I was like, what is wrong with me? Like all these other mums are out at the shops, and I just I felt like I was failing. It was really, it was really hard. And it made the depression worse, you know, because you're judging yourself and yeah, it was brutal.

Dave Quak 26:44

And there would have been the days would have felt long as well, because if some depressed days, I know for myself when I'm depressed in my mania from my bipolar, sorry, the days feel like they go for days because you're just like trying to get through to finally getting to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Oh, and just like your husband leaving the house was like the absolute worst thing in the world. Like you're leaving me in charge of a human being, I'm growing a human being. I'd be like calling him two o'clock, like, I don't suppose you're finishing early today. Like, what time are you coming home? Like it was, and so he's like, What's happened to my wife? Like, I'm who I am right now is who I am. Like, I'm a happy person, I love people, I love to chat. And for the whole of my pregnancy, it's like I'm a different person. Yeah. So then I'd kind of um isolate because when you are normally like this, it becomes very obvious to people when you you would know, like when you're not in a good place, it's harder to hide it.

Dave Quak 27:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

And so then it felt too hard to even go anywhere.

Dave Quak 27:38

Because Yeah, because you didn't want to put on the show.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

No, I can't put on a show. So it was either people are like, How are you? And I'm like, suicidal, you know, like or I just don't go, or I have to try and be like, I'm okay. And that goes after your identity because you're like, wait, who am I if I'm not meeting everyone's needs?

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Making everyone else feel happy all the time. Because it brought up identity stuff. Like, oh my god, it's my job to be happy for everybody else, despite the fact I'm suffering.

Dave Quak 28:07

Interestingly, linking back to when you were little, being the responsible one, being the the good kid. Yeah, just

Trauma And Fighting With Scripture

Dave Quak 28:15

I don't okay, so while you're pregnant with the second one then, you understand what's going on. You're anxious and depressed. Does it also mean medication's discounted because you're pregnant?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Okay, so my mine was so severe they said, Look, we normally don't recommend you know, but uh we think it's gonna save your life, basically. And it was right towards the end of the um pregnancy, but she could see I was yeah, I was not okay. And there's one time, yeah, where I was like almost went through with it, you know. So they said, Look, we need to just get you on some meds, and they were worried about after the after he was born. But for some reason, with me, after I give birth, I I feel fine. It's like I give birth to the depression, it's weird. Um, but yeah, so she was like, We need to get you on some medication. And the funny thing was they put me on one, and that's what started my first panic attack.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

So then I was scared to take any other medications.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

So then they yeah, I ended up on medication just because and then they had to monitor the baby for longer after he was born. Um and then I felt you know, all the guilt around that, like, what is wrong with my brain? You know, it was it was like a really awful time.

Dave Quak 29:25

No, that's a horrible time. Yeah, you know, and just the unknown of it all as well. Like, oh man, that would have been terrible.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

It was, yeah.

Dave Quak 29:33

So then the second one's born, but you get pregnant again. Do you freak out that you get pregnant? Because before when you said God planned it, I'm imagining that it wasn't like Valentine's Day or anything.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Oh no. We were just like, because it took so long to fall pregnant with the first two. So I was like, oh, we don't get pregnant very easily. Yes, we do. But now when you meet Teddy, you realize why God was like, you need this baby in your life. I needed him. I needed also that journey of like fighting for my freedom, fighting for my mental health. Um, and it didn't help, like, oh man. So when um so when I was pregnant with Abel, you know, this person came into my life, could see I was really depressed and was like, I'm gonna help you, like really just what I now know took advantage of the state I was in. Okay, and um that person ended up betraying us, our family, really, really badly, like in just unthinkable ways. Um, and so then that all came out right before I fell pregnant with my third. So I'm I'm dealing with trauma, like before I even get pregnant, intense trauma. And then um, yeah, and then my kids had to deal with trauma. So I'm going through that pregnancy. Um, the third one, finding out that Abel's eyes weren't working properly, and then when Teddy was born, he had to go through like um Abel had two different surgeries where they had to cut his eyeballs over. It was just like it honestly, I thought I was being punked. It was like one of the I just remember sitting there being like, God, is this like actually happening? Is this real life? Like, yeah, it was a really hard time, but like I said, that that pregnancy with Teddy, I was like, God, you're either real or you're not. Like what you say in the Bible is either true or it's not. And it's time to find out because I'm like not taking this one line down.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And so I remember him saying to me, like, Sarah, if the enemy broke into your home, if like a thief broke into your home and you had like a gun on your bedside table, you would use it, right? Like you'd protect yourself. And he's like, the enemy's trying to break into your mind, and you've got a Bible right there, like, and it's I call it a weapon for a reason. Pick it up, you know? And I did. And I'm telling you, like, I healed, I overcame so incredibly in that pregnancy. Yeah. Because I used the word, I declared it. I would like wake up in the night having a panic attack, and then I'd write out scripture, even when I didn't feel it, and it would change everything to the point where, like, by the end of the pregnancy, I felt better than I'd ever felt in my life. So Yeah.

Dave Quak 32:12

I'd resonate. I reckon there's times when we walk with our mental illnesses when we just get tired. Like you just, you know, and sometimes fighting even with the Bible, though we love the word of God, that's still tiring.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Well, and since then I've been through it and I didn't have the fight in me. So it was like sometimes I do think there's a grace for it.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

And and then, yeah, I I hesitate sometimes to share that because I also know sometimes part of the mental health is you can't fight. Like you feel too broken to fight. And so I I feel like both pregnancies gave me an experience of both of those things, you know? Like, and neither uh not one's better than the other, not one makes me braver than the other. It's just seasons, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Quak 32:54

We're actually gonna pull it up now and have a week to think about all the awesome stuff that Sarah's said, and then we're gonna pick up the second

Next Week Teaser And Goodbye

Dave Quak 33:01

half of the conversation next week. So make sure you tune in to Sun Burnt Souls next week to make sure you don't forget you can follow or like our podcast. You should bless yourself by getting on Sarah Wiseman's Instagram and see some of her content. Otherwise, guys, have the best week, and we will pick it up again in a week. God bless.