The Pressure to Be Perfect Is Killing Your Faith (Part 2) | Sarah Wiseman

In Part 2, the conversation goes deeper.

Sarah Wiseman opens up about anxiety, depression, motherhood, and the reality of navigating mental health while trying to follow Jesus. From panic attacks to hormonal struggles like PMDD, this is the stuff most people don’t talk about — especially in church.

We also talk about raising kids while you’re struggling, dealing with criticism, and why your weakness doesn’t disqualify you from being used by God.

This is real faith — not filtered, not perfect.

In this episode:

•  Anxiety and depression in everyday life 
•  Mental health during pregnancy and motherhood 
•  PMDD and the hormonal side of mental illness 
•  Raising kids while you’re struggling 
•  Owning your mistakes and repairing relationships 
•  Why weakness doesn’t disqualify you 
•  Living with faith even when healing isn’t instant 

A standout moment in this episode is the honesty around mental health — not hiding it, but bringing it into the light where God actually meets people 

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 https://www.instagram.com/sarah.a.wiseman/

Listen to “Sit Down With Sarah”:
 https://open.spotify.com/show/0LGxpsG9HXCtVjb5A0P1mR

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Transcript

Welcome And Part Two Setup

Dave Quak 0:00

Well, welcome to Sunburned Souls. On this show, we speak about life and faith and our mental well-being, and we love doing it. And this week is the second week of an interview with Sarah Wiseman. If you missed the first half, make sure you go back and check it out. But today we start delving more deeply into her life as a mom and a minister of the gospel and someone who loves being a mental health advocate, and is using Instagram in all different ways to reach people for Jesus. And so thanks for tuning in this week, and I pray it is a blessing to your soul.

Hormones Perimenopause And PMDD

Dave Quak 0:28

You know, you speaking about this, you're talking about both the spiritual, emotional, but even the hormonal side of those pregnancies. And that never really used to get spoken about that much. But I've even noticed lately there's more chats around like perimenopause and all of that stuff. Now I don't understand most of it, and I don't need to.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Honestly, same still.

Dave Quak 0:48

I'm still like figuring out some of the lingo.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Oh, I was just preparing myself for menopause. I'm like, what's this perimenopause? Is that earlier or later? It feels like it's getting closer and closer, and I'm feeling ripped off.

Dave Quak 0:59

And it feels like a perimeter. Does it mean like, you know, peri? Does it mean it can get other people?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Nobody's safe. Well, it no one is safe, really, if it's happening.

Dave Quak 1:11

It's gone, it's happening everywhere. Oh yeah. I get surprised because I've got a wife and daughter, and sometimes I'm just like, I don't understand what's happening here. I'll take my son to Mac it. We'll bring stuff back for the girls like. And luckily, I'm married to a competent, beautiful wife who knows what she's doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

I've loved listening to your episodes of it.

Dave Quak 1:32

Yeah, she's the best. I mean, I'm glad you're speaking into this into this space. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because the whole the hormonal structure is ridiculous. Like the amount of power and draw it has and ability to overtake your actions and stuff, it's quite insane.

Dysphoria And Damage Control

SPEAKER_00 1:48

And you feel like I was actually listening um to your episode about what to do when you've done the wrong thing during like a because PMDD has dysphoria in the word, in the name, you know. And you were talking about being euphoric's great, but dysphoric, like you feel like the worst version of yourself. Yeah. And that's been my experience. Like every month, I'm feeling like that for like seven plus days.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

And it it it's so hard because you can't con you feel out of control. Like you feel like you're acting like somebody that you're not, and everyone's paying for it. And then you spend, once you feel better, you're like trying to clean up all the mess you made. Oh it's so intense.

Dave Quak 2:29

Sarah, you're so right. So dysphoria, I wonder if okay. So for you, so for me, it works where I've got the energy of being manic and the aggravation of being depressed. Right. So I'm like monstrously angry and mean, and it it's the worst. Because like you said, when you're trying to clean it up after you've messed it up, you feel like a hypocrite. You feel like a hypocrite. You feel like you've hurt the very people you love more than anyone else. A hundred percent. Well, I love my family the most. I know the last in that episode I hurt someone and and to get to that place afterwards where you're like I'm so sorry. Like, this is all me. And I was triggered and I lashed out at you, and you actually did nothing wrong. And the words that came out of my mouth they don't, they're not what I believe.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

I don't even mean it. I know.

Dave Quak 3:20

And that's the hardest because they see the words coming out of our face, and but they're like so. When they remember it, they're like, that's what dad believes, that's what mum believes. Yeah. Is it a similar thing for you to do?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

It is exactly, it's that exactly. And like there's so many tough conversations where I've had to just be like, I I I didn't mean that. I'm so sorry. Like, and and you know, it's easy to look back and just think of everything mental illness or your situation is taking from you and your family, but I've just felt God teaching me everything, it's also giving, like, it's giving my kids this opportunity to see a parent who can apologize, who can humble themselves. Um, I like I said, I feel hypocritical, and when I'm doing it, I can't think of any of that stuff. I'm like, I'm the worst mum ever, you know. Like, but my kids are so good at grace. Like, yeah, I think because they just have a learning to be.

Red Days Parenting Survival Plan

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Um, and I've explained to them, like, I think it's a little easier because I can see it coming. I don't know if easy is the word for it, but like I know if it's coming, I know. Oh, timing wise, yeah, timing wise, it's the same time of the month, which also makes it scarier because you're like, it feels like you're just about to disappear and it's awful. But I've I try to prepare them, prepare my I literally bake extra meals. So, like, because I feel like I have the energy of depression, so like I just don't want to do anything. It's hard to leave the house, it's hard to see friends, like, and I homeschool, so it's like I am always around my kids. Like, yeah, sometimes I'm like, would they be safer if I just sent them to school and like a teacher got cranky at them? But then God's even said to me, you know, like if a teacher is stressed and flips out at your kids, like they don't get to repair it like you can. Yeah, you know, and and so God's been taking me on this journey of trying to also realize what they're gaining from seeing me go through this journey, so it's not just this awful experience that's happening to my family. Like they're learning compassion, like now they're just like it's okay, Mom. We know you love us. I say, look, I call them my red days because mom's like raging red. They know they get more TV on those days. Like, I try to almost make rewards, like yeah, so that yeah, they know mummies like they even say to me now, like, Mum, it's a red day isn't it? I'm like, it sure is, and I'm really sorry. Like, but yeah, it is what it is, and you know what?

God Does Not Change

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Even no matter how much I change in the month, God never changes, you know? Yeah, no matter the highs and lows you have, Dave, like what God says about you never changes, you know, and his promises never change, and that's something that I think is important to remember. Like, our moods may change, our our you know, capabilities might change, but he does not change, and he's not surprised by our mental health. Like he he knew the plan for our life, he knew how the enemy was gonna come after us, and he's not just like, oh no, like oh no, how am I gonna bless her now? How am I gonna bless her kids now? Like I always try to think of that, you know, like he knew that I would struggle with this, and he already had a plan to like make the enemy pay, I think. And so yeah, I don't even know what you asked me, but that's it.

Dave Quak 6:38

But thanks for sharing that, Sarah, because I'd only got into a place of repentance and hoping for restoration. Yeah, I didn't make the next step, which you just pointed out, that not only can God bring restoration, he can use this to equip them. Yeah, and that's actually giving me goosebumps because that's actually restoration. That's proper gospel, that is.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, and I don't say that to like um relinquish responsibility because trust me, like I am the first to say, like, I never should have said that. I should not have yelled. I'm so sorry. Like it feels like the total opposite of who I am as a person.

Dave Quak 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

And I just say, like, you didn't deserve that. Like, it's not your fault. All the things I know kids need to hear, but I do pray that if they grow up one day and they deal with something similar, they know, like, oh wait, God still has a plan. Like the way I explain it to them, I'm like, imagine God and the enemy are playing a game of like, you know, like cards, right? The enemy has power on this earth, but he doesn't have authority. So he might try and play a card, right? He he can play his cards, but God always has a better one. So if something bad happens, if I've hurt you, like God plans to heal you. If someone else hurts you, God plans to heal you and turn it into something great, like so. I have to remember that for myself sometimes. If I let my kids down, like God still has a plan. You know, like I am not the I am not the last thing that's gonna happen to them because God is their father more than I'm their mother.

Dave Quak 8:05

So powerful.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, he always has a better plan.

Dave Quak 8:08

But yeah, that's powerful. Yeah. And it gives you hope and me hope as imperfect parents that they could still turn out to be pretty rad little young adults.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Well, you know what? I I something God said to me when my kids were little, I was like, God, what no, not what's wrong with these kids, but like some days you're like, what the heck is going on? Yeah, and and or they just do the wrong thing because they're humans, right? And you're like, I've taught you a million times not to do that. I'm like, God, what am I doing wrong? And he says to me, Sarah, I'm the perfect dad, and my kids still do the wrong thing. Like, I literally am the perfect father. I offer them everything, they still mess up. So if I don't take it personally, you can't start taking that personally either. I'm like, okay, fair point.

Dave Quak 8:54

And then That's a good word, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:56

And then I also make the Old Testament makes a bit more sense that with the smiting and stuff like that. You know, doesn't get angry, but then you're like, well, maybe a bit. But yeah, it's it's good for me to

The Apology Pie Framework

SPEAKER_00 9:11

rip. And also, like, I have to, I can tell my I have this thing called the Apology Pie in our home, where it's like, if you've done the wrong thing, you gotta complete all pieces of the pie. So like you say sorry, that's the first piece. It's kind of like that episode you did where it's like you say sorry, but then you gotta do the next piece, which is you listen to how you made them feel. Then you say, I understand, and I'm still sorry, and then you change your behavior. Like, and I'm like, if you haven't done all four, the pie's not complete, right? Yeah, and so I then have to do that for them every month when I'm like, you know, and I have experienced healing within this journey. Like I God has been in it, you know, and and I I actually don't suffer as bad as I did. Um and I do believe he can fully heal me, but yeah, I I just see that a lot of purpose in in going through it, and I just pray that he'll protect their little hearts and they might grow up and I'll pay for their therapy. Like they might need to talk to someone, I'm sure they will. But I just have to, yeah. I just try to remember like God's a perfect parent, yeah, you know, and he still has kids that do the wrong thing. So yeah, I just gotta be humble.

Dave Quak 10:22

It's powerful because we, as imperfect people, will always make mistakes, you know, and still have to live in joy and freedom the same way they do. Yeah. I like what you said too, like you're still hoping for healing, but at the same time living realistically, like preparing for the red days, getting the pie on the fridge, all that stuff. Yeah. It's it's still like living in faith. I had an argument, I would say, with a guy once who sort of said, Dave, you're just like, you know, resigned to the fact that you're bipolar, you're not fighting anymore.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Oh man, isn't that fun?

Dave Quak 10:54

It's all good. I mean, I pushed him over. No.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

I punched him. But I apologize. You did the whole apology pie. The whole pie was in his face.

Dave Quak 11:07

But um but he, you know, like that's the misconception, is that because we take medication or whatever, whatever our path is, like, but I'm way better than I was a year ago.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Oh, you know, totally.

Dave Quak 11:19

And so like it's still healing.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

100%.

Healing Prayer And Paul’s Thorn

SPEAKER_00 11:21

And even Paul said, like, I begged him three times to take this away from me, and he didn't, you know. And so I I never want to get like proud enough to be like, I, you know, it it is hard in church. There's such different theol theologies around healing. Oh, and it it is hard, but it's like, you know what? Like, I have learned more about God's grace and his kindness and his love. My faith has grown so much more in the valley than it has on the mountaintop. Honestly, I don't know if I'd change a thing because it's like the richness of my faith has come from when I haven't had it all together and I've still experienced his grace. Like that pregnancy with Abel. I'll never forget, like, I have one of the biggest revelations about how I even approach God because I was lying on my bed one day, like, I don't think I'm gonna survive this. I was just crying. I was like, God save me. And I closed my eyes, I was listening to worship music, which even that was hard for me to do because just trying felt hard. Like it just felt so hard. And God showed me this picture of I closed my eyes and I saw Jesus like standing there, and I was on my knees, like begging him to help me. I was like at his feet, like, save me, Lord. And my heart posture was love, like I loved him so much. And in this picture, he like scooped me up and put me on his shoulder and just put my head on his shoulder and was like, Honey, this is where you belong when you feel broken, you know. And it was like less about what I needed from him and more about where I needed to be with him, you know what I mean? And so I think that's what brokenness teaches us, and I think it's why, yes, we should we should ask for healing, like Paul asked three times, like take this away. But if he doesn't, he's still good. Like no one can take that from me now. No, because I've seen in my lack of healing, he's still good. Like even in unanswered prayer, he's still amazing, he still loves me. Yeah, I'm still I'm still worthy of love, you know. Like you can't learn that any other way, really. No thing.

Dave Quak 13:27

And and and that love is like this. Is I think what is crazy is sometimes you would be performing as the best mum ever. You know, baking stuff, doing crafts at home, all of the best mum stuff. Yeah. And then other days crying on the bed. Yeah and his love to us doesn't isn't like waver. It doesn't waver between the two.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Isn't it wild?

Dave Quak 13:47

No. But the weird thing is then we would project it onto our spiritual walk and think that God loves us more when we're doing our devotions and praying and hundred percent you know, and he he doesn't love us as much when we're swearing and carrying on, and you know, and one's just pain and the other one's just exist, you know, and yeah, and I think that's one of the hardest things to get our heads around.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

And that's what that's what I what I gained from that moment of salvation, true salvation was like I literally had nothing, I was a mess, and he loved me so much. I never want to let go of that. No, because I think the longer we're Christians, the more we start striving. Like, all right, now I gotta earn it. Like I was on drugs before, but now I'm like have to be perfect. Like, you know, it's easier to receive his grace for the big stuff. Yeah, but it's like when your life starts to look more together, it's easier to lie to yourself and be like, no, I'm like a pretty decent person. That's right. But sometimes the sin is just more hidden or like, yeah, sure, it's not addiction, but it's like attitudes and it's actually the small, the little foxes that we have to just get so good at not letting slip.

Dave Quak 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

We have to be more intentional about it.

Dave Quak 15:00

Absolutely.

Medication And Church Stigma

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah.

Dave Quak 15:01

And that's why your podcast needs to explode, and that's why your ministry needs to explode, is because you're showing people in their faith that mental illness isn't a barrier for God to reach them. And mental you know, mental ill health, mental um issues of any sort, they're not that they're no different to someone having a foot missing. You know what I mean? Like if a footless person came to church one day, hopefully some footless guy pops into your church in a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah.

Dave Quak 15:30

And could you imagine someone up coming up and saying something, oh, it's it's actually a faith issue, mate.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

You know, are we related? This is uh yes, exactly. Yeah.

Dave Quak 15:39

If you just had more faith, you'd have a foot.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Oh, and also like, can you put the crutches down and go for a run, please? Like, this is what I say to people about medication. Like, oh, for some reason, we're okay with casts on legs and we're okay with like wheelchairs if you've hurt yourself or had surgery. Yeah. But if you need medication because your mind is struggling, nah, absolutely not. Where's your faith? Where's your faith? And it's like I've had to say that to my friends before who I can see they're in a similar place to where I've been before. If your mind can break under pressure, like it can not break, but like scientifically, it can struggle to produce serotonin, the things it needs to function.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

If if that could happen, why would why would we get seek medical attention for everything else but that? You know, because you can't see it. It's wild. Yeah, it's wild.

Dave Quak 16:28

It is wild. And then taking it a step further, imagine if we called up the one-footed lady and started mocking her for not being good at soccer. Yeah. Right? You would be monsters, right? We would be monsters. Okay, why are we mocking the one-footed lady for not? Like, she doesn't have the ability to be good at soccer. Yeah. She's a woman of God. She is lovely. We love the way she connects with people, but she just doesn't have a foot. Yeah. Right? So she's not going to be good at soccer in the same way someone who has anxiety is not going to be good in the social settings.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

That's awesome.

Dave Quak 17:00

And so we we sort of like, oh, well, just be just be happy or projecting it, right? Projecting on it. Yeah. Expecting them to do something they can't do the same way we can't expect like they don't have the faculty to do. Yeah.

Trust Slow And Find Safe Friends

SPEAKER_00 17:11

And honestly, Dave, this is why I struggle to trust people who have never been broken. I know that sounds terrible, but like, I I because you learn something. Yeah. When you come face to face with your humanity and areas where you fail, it teaches you to have grace for people in a way that makes relationships safe. You know what I mean? Like, but if if someone can't if someone can't like admit they don't have it all together, then they're not gonna let you not have it all together either. And how can relationship be safe in that way? And like that's what's had what taught what's taught me like how to um because after that betrayal I went through, I couldn't trust anybody. Like, and my mental health suffered. I initially was pretty good for a while, and then when everyone else was fine, I just plummeted. You know, COVID, it just sent us all into a whole.

Dave Quak 17:58

That was just a wacko time.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

That's when all my trauma just hit me all at once. It was like God was like, all right, everyone else is healed, now it's time to deal with you, and I just fell hard and fast. Oh man. But in that time, it was like, yeah, I even now I've realized if I start to feel unsafe in a relationship or if I'm struggling with like my mental health, I go back to that place back in the day where I only felt safe in my bed. You know what I mean? Like I knew no one could hurt me, I'd cut everybody out. I'm still trying to get over that because it's like if someone it's hard to explain that to people too. Like, hey, just so you know, if I ever stop replying to text messages, I'm probably in bed scared that like people don't really love me or like, you know, like it's real stuff that people go through and no one talks about, but we have to talk about it. Yeah, there's no shame in it.

Dave Quak 18:48

There's no shame. You said before we're related because of the foot story, we're also related because of the bed story. Like when I'm depressed, yeah. I only want to be there because it's the safe place. And you when you sleep, you get a temporary reprieve from all the hell of the world.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

A hundred percent.

Dave Quak 19:04

You know, but the hard thing is you wake up every time. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

And you're like, oh I can't even sleep though. That's my thing. It's more just like I I think I push all day for my kids. I push for them to like not see how broken I'm feeling, how tired I'm feeling. And I think, and this is the hard part about homeschooling is like it's hard to explain to people like I'm never alone. Like I'm being spoken to all day. I'm pushing past how I feel all day long. So then the thought of replying to two or three text messages on top of that just feels so hard. Yeah, I just want to go lie in bed and like watch a TV show, and I feel guilty for that, but it my brain feels broken, like my brain feels so overwhelmed, I don't know what else to do. And God's just been gracious in that. And when you find the right friends, I can be honest with them about that and be like, hey, I'm really struggling. If I don't reach out, it's not because I don't love you. And they know now they're like red days. No, no, seriously, your girlfriends, they get it. But like, yeah, you you gotta find people who are safe to just be like, look, I get it, no judgment. I'm here when you're ready. And then I get to be that people for others as well.

Dave Quak 20:13

So that's awesome. You for others and them for you. Do you have a good network?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Um, I have maybe I'll withdraw that question.

Dave Quak 20:23

Someone's just had a fallout.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

No, on it like I said, like it's a real part of my story. After the betrayal I went through, it it was vicious, it was brutal.

Dave Quak 21:11

And so it was like I don't mean to make light of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

I just no, I I laugh about it. That's when you know you're healed or you're healing, you're definitely still healing. But like I've learned that less is more sometimes with friendships. Yeah, I you know what God's taught me, and this is actually something that's really changed for me. I thought loving people meant trusting everybody, right? But in the last year or so, like God's taught me to love fast and trust slow, and that's okay.

Dave Quak 21:38

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Do you know what I mean? Love people because I'll meet anyone and be like, oh my gosh, hey, and I genuinely feel love for everybody, but then I just open my heart to everyone. And then in the last year, that's just gotten stomped on, like over and over again. Uh oh man. I finally thought I'm ready, I'm ready to embrace community and relationship again. And I did, and it yeah, it was a process, and you know what? I don't regret it either because that's how I learned. Okay, keep loving people, like, and that's something I'm just so grateful. Like one day when I can share my full story, like I am so grateful God has preserved my ability to love people. Like I genuinely can meet people and God just shows me how He sees them. And I I really just find it easy to love people. I'm just learning not to just give them my heart immediately, but th I'm so glad he's he's kept that ability for me to genuinely just love people.

Dave Quak 22:34

Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Sometimes from a distance, though.

Dave Quak 22:36

Yeah, but I'm glad you haven't withdrawn completely. Like maybe you've got some things to work out there. Yeah. But you're still sewing into people and helping people out. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

So to answer your question.

Dave Quak 22:45

So yeah, but like I mean it's not always easy, is it?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

No. And it and as well. Yeah. And I think like, yeah, I'm just learning the wisdom and having ve a few people who I trust with everything.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

And then I love everyone in my life, but then yeah, just learning like the distances to have in relationships and stuff because healthy.

Dave Quak 23:08

I'm gonna tell you a little daydream of mine, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Tell me.

Dave Quak 23:11

I can't say too much, but one day I won't I can't be a pastor forever. Like one day you get to

Pastoral Load Burnout And Pedestals

Dave Quak 23:16

get to have a break.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Yeah.

Dave Quak 23:18

And I just am looking forward to the cull. I won't be brutal. Like the people I who love me will know that they love me. Yeah. But for the others, there'll just be this like r dust pile of where Dave used to be. But it's not because I don't love people. I just think the capacity to be connected to so many people for people is actually quite.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Even Jesus struggled with that. He did, he took off, man. Yeah, and I one of my best friends, you know, Bianca. Yeah. She she's just finished being a pastor. And man, like I don't know why I end up finding myself friends with people in these positions. Because I just don't know if I could do it. But like just seeing what pastors go through, I can't even imagine like the emotional exertion that you're constantly giving out all the time. Like it's intense. I feel that just with social media. Like I've said to my husband before, I don't want this to blow up any bigger because then I can't reply to everybody. Because I really like to reply to everyone so they feel like seen and everyone shares their stories with me in DMs because when you're sharing really openly, and I imagine being the pastor's the same. You're like, everyone's coming to you, like giving you all their stuff. Yeah. Does that just get heavy?

Dave Quak 24:37

It happens. And the crazy thing is, no matter what systems you put in place to help, like training pastoral care helpers and everything else, yeah, you'll still and I suppose it's part of the job.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah.

Dave Quak 24:47

But it's one of those parts of the job that I'm just don't know how many years a human can sustain it.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

But do you think the system might be a bit broken though? Do you think the way we've set it up, like sorry if this is controversial. No, okay. But like, do you think one person or two people were meant to carry the weight of that? Like, you know, I look back on the Acts Church and I'm like, they were delegated. You know what I mean? Like, and I just think it is hard. I feel for pastors these days because it really is a lot of pressure on the two main people. And you like you said, you can put pastoral care people in place, but people look to you and go, wait a second, but he's here for a reason. I want to talk to that guy. Like, that's heavy.

Dave Quak 25:27

And we always get handballed the hard ones, like burst deaths, and marriages. They're the true like you want to be there for them, and they're a joy. I'm hoping not death, but yeah, you know, but it's what you gotta do, I guess. But like, yeah, I mean, I'm blessed. Our church, we've been there 15 years, which is probably testimony that it's like as as far as church goes, it's probably the easier of the light. Like, you know what I mean? Like, which is which is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

It's a testament of the people as well, not just you guys.

Dave Quak 25:58

Yeah, the people are really epic. Yeah. But I can see at the moment a lot of we spoke about it earlier, big pastors falling, local pastors burning out. Like it's in our movement, in the Bapos, there's pretty much nobody coming through. Like they are just scrambling to start recruiting younger pastors and why do you think that is? Oh, the I there's just like this big glut. So there's sort of like around my age, there's heaps, and then there's then there's about five more years worth coming through. Right. So I'm 45, so that's like up to 40. Uh-huh. And then this massive void.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Wow.

Dave Quak 26:33

So when I went to Bible college, you could at any time ring up the college and go, ooh, we've got a church vacancy, any good pastor.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Everyone would take take it.

Dave Quak 26:39

Yeah, and they'd be like, cool. Now there's literally no one. Wow. So the only ones that go now are ones that other churches have like already um sort of mentored and said we'll send you to Bible college.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, like they're it's in the building. Like they, yeah. Yeah. Do you think that's because people are starting their own ministries online and they can create their own followings without needing brick and mortar or something?

Dave Quak 27:00

I do think that. And I think house churches are really easy. And I also think um changing careers. So people move um careers, not just like industry, not just like jobs from like one teacher at one school, one teacher to another school.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah.

Dave Quak 27:14

But like teacher to coach to IT. Completely different ones. And I just wonder if people are weighing up whether or not it's worth committing to a church if you're only gonna do it for a couple of years and move on. That's my sort of ah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

There's a lot of like um I I think this next generation is very like enamored with instant gratification. Instant, instant. And pastoring a church is not that. It's like walking alongside people through the hard stuff.

Dave Quak 27:43

Insightful, Miss Wiseman, because that honestly could be exactly it.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah.

Dave Quak 27:47

It's not glamorous, it's not instant.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Oh, just seeing what my friend's gone through. And there's it's thankless. Like people forget what you've done very quickly and will just turn or you know, like and you're left, they're like, no worries, hours of praying for you, but like you know, and that yeah, that's something got convicted my husband and I of a long time ago. Like, um, if we ever left a church, like you honor, you honor what that that season and what they've done for you, like because it's the brutality of like people just you sow and so and so, and then they're like peace out. Like I can't imagine that would that would be really hard. So it is hard.

Dave Quak 28:22

Thank you for your empathy there though, because it's it's not often you get yeah, people get it. No.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Oh, and I think um, yeah, I think people just don't empathize a lot with pastors at all. No. And it it becomes very I I see like this pattern of like just take, take, take, and then yeah, pastors are getting burnt out. And then when they sin, we turn around and go, Oh, you failed everybody, and it's like, well, that's a whole nother episode because I'm not shutting you down.

Dave Quak 28:51

No, but that needs to be spoken about 100% because there's something there.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Because they've probably got mental health issues too, but if they talk about it, yeah, there's criticism, people don't respect it. I've done it.

Dave Quak 29:01

And if if they're kind of worshipped as well, if there's like an attitude where everyone just is like revering them, yeah. That's too fine.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

You ought to maintain that.

Dave Quak 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Oh man, I heard God say to me like a year ago, I'm just destroying the pedestals. Like he does not want pedestals because then people can fall off things, you know, like it's so true. They're all grounded, no one can fall, and if they do, we're all there to catch them, you know. Like and I do think maybe that's why house churches are becoming more more of a thing, because it's like we're all here together, got each other's backs, you know. I don't know, hey Dave.

Dave Quak 29:31

Um I don't know, mate, but we should watch it, watch the space because we both care about Christians and the people of God.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah.

Dave Quak 29:38

Um, as we start winding up, I want to ask a couple of questions. How do they get on your Insta?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Just search Sarah Wiseman.

Where To Find Sarah Online

Dave Quak 29:46

So Did you actually get Sarah Wiseman out of all the six billion people?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Sarah.a.wiseman. I got oh, I tried to get Sarah Wiseman, but no, it was taken. There's actually like anyway, there's another one, but she's Australian. I was like, hey, we should be friends. I didn't really, but man, that's so meaningful. Hey, let's be friends. Okay, so Sarah.awisman.a.wiseman.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Um, that's my handle on Instagram. I'm on Facebook. Yeah. And then my podcast is called Um Sit Down with Sarah. I forgot the name of it for a second.

Dave Quak 30:17

No, that's okay. And I see it's on Apple and Spotify already.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Yes.

Dave Quak 30:20

Um, is that where you want most people to go? Or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah, yeah, I don't haven't got a website or anything yet, Dave. I'm just like starting it small.

Dave Quak 30:28

No, what you're doing is so commendable, and I highly recommend anyone listening to jump on and check check out sit down with Sarah because it's good stuff already. Oh, thanks. And I think it's gonna continue to be really good. Thanks, mate.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah, yeah, it's just a place where you can hear real chats, just like this. Yeah, you know. And on my Instagram, I just try to share life, real talk, and just yeah.

Dave Quak 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

None of the bells and whistles just your Insta's good. Thanks, man.

Dave Quak 30:54

I'm an old man with social media and I post things I shouldn't post and like the wrong things, but I like watching your clips.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

This has encouraged me actually. I felt convicted while talking to you to stop holding back because I've been holding back for a while now.

Dave Quak 31:06

So just share.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I'll get jump on here right now and be like, just chat it today. Yeah, jump on. I will. Thank you so much for just trusting me to have this chat and having me here. I've loved this so much. So good.

Dave Quak 31:18

Yeah, it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Let's start a series, no.

Dave Quak 31:20

No, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

I'll have you on my one next. Oh, that'd be awesome.

Dave Quak 31:23

Well, Sarah Wiseman, thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Thanks for having me.

Dave Quak 31:26

Um, if you would mind uh praying for us, we always ask our guests to finish off in prayer. And it was such an honor having you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Thanks, man. I'd love to. Okay. Heavenly Father, I love you so much. I just love you. And I thank you that you

Closing Prayer For Hope

SPEAKER_00 31:43

love me, but you l love every person listening right now, no matter what they're going through, how they felt today, what they've walked through, mistakes that they've made, Lord, would you just let them know right now in this moment? Would you meet them with your love, just like you did with me all those years ago? Would you just show them, let them feel a tangible presence of your love in their car, in their home, wherever they are. Would you just reach out to them and remind them there's always hope, that there is peace available? I pray, Father, that if they're struggling with mental health, that they will keep reaching out to you, that you'll surround them with good people who will give them the support that they need. And would you just help them to see the light at the end of the tunnel, Lord God, to know that there is always hope. There is always a plan. And I just thank you, Lord, that no matter what the enemy has has tried to do, you have a better hand. You always have a plan. You um you always have a plan for hope in a future. Would you infuse that hope into everybody listening right now? I pray that you'll bless Dave, bless this podcast, and yeah, just give us all an incredible week. And yeah, we just love you. In your mighty name. Amen.

Dave Quak 32:52

Amen.