Suffering, Anxiety and Christian Meditation | Finding Peace in Pain with Dr Joshua Knabb

Pain shows up whether we invite it or not and trying to outrun it usually makes it louder. I sit down with Dr. Joshua Nabb, a clinical psychologist and professor, to talk about what happens when suffering shatters your assumptions and forces bigger questions about faith, healing, and hope. Joshua shares his own story of early trauma, depression, and anxiety, plus the surprising role Christian therapy played in helping him name what hurt and start putting the pieces back together.

We dig into a deeply biblical view of emotions that many churches still struggle to hold. Sadness, fear, and anxiety are not automatically spiritual failures. They can be signals that reveal what we value, what we have lost, and what we think is at risk. We talk about lament as a Christian mental health practice, including Psalm 88 and the honesty of the Psalms where the darkness does not neatly resolve. That honesty can be the start of freedom because it trains us to bring the whole truth into God’s presence.

Then we get practical with Christian meditation and contemplative prayer that stay anchored to Scripture and the Christian tradition rather than borrowed spirituality. Joshua explains how to train attention with short Bible promises, how to work with intrusive thoughts without getting into a losing fight, and why the Jesus Prayer can feel like real time “soothing” instead of magical problem removal. We also address the “Is meditation New Age?” concern head on and point to the rich heritage of biblical meditation across Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant history.

We close with what Joshua is researching next, including a Holy Spirit focused alternative to loving-kindness meditation built around the fruit of the Spirit, plus where to find his free guided practices and resources. If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with a friend who is struggling, and leave a review so more people can find hope and tools that actually work.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dave Quak 0:00

Well ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Sunburnt Souls. On this show we speak about life and faith and our mental well-being, and I am super thankful to have Joshua Nabb, not just Joshua Nabb, but Dr. Joshua Nabb, all the way in California joining us this morning. So Joshua, thank you so much for coming on the show, brother. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Oh well, you actually came into my purview because I was looking at different podcasts and your podcast, The Christian Psychologist, came up, but then you sent me on a rabbit warren that stole about 10 of my hours this week because I found your podcast, then I started reading some of your content, and then just looking at some of your books, and then at the end of one of your podcasts, there was a 10-minute devotion which got me hooked, and then I saw that you do that on your other podcasts as well. And I was just thinking you really can bring a depth to this conversation that we haven't spoken about, you know, that much on this podcast yet, about the contemplative and how you got into

Joshua’s Story And Calling

Dave Quak 0:58

it. So what if we just bring it back? Like how did you even start on this path?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, that's a great question. I think um two influences. One would be my own personal life, uh, and then two would be my professional life. So personally, uh I grew up in a, I would say, probably more conservative evangelical Protestant home. My parents were first generation Christians. Uh, and so I grew up with a Christian worldview that I thought was impenetrable. I thought uh it was unshakable, uh, that I was confident in my Christian worldview. And when I was 12 years old, my dad ended up leaving. He ended up having a, I would probably describe it as a midlife crisis. He uh had an affair and ended up raising another family. And so that left me with, you know, what one author calls uh a shattered assumptions. My worldview was in pieces. And so that left me really struggling to make sense of my worldview. And I was in a lot of pain early on in life. Um, it was traumatizing for me. I went through depression and anxiety. And so personally, that left me searching for answers. Uh, one, could my Christian worldview make sense of the suffering I was going through and what to do about it? And then two, was there a path forward that could help me in the healing process? And so uh I found that, you know, around that time I didn't really have uh good influences at church. Uh I kind of stopped going to church, but I ended up going into therapy to, and I saw a Christian therapist who really helped me to process my emotions, to make sense of my pain, and to really kind of put the pieces back together. That left me then asking the question, what can I do to give back? And so that led me on a path to uh graduate school, to get a doctorate in clinical psychology from a Christian university. And uh interestingly, uh, when I was getting some of my hours for licensure to get licensed as a psychologist, supervised hours, uh, I was at a Christian psychiatric hospital. And at this hospital, uh, mindfulness was very popular. Mindfulness is kind of everywhere now. Uh, you know, in the United States, um, you know, from clinical psychology to uh, you know, uh elementary school, middle school, high school, college, everywhere you look, corporations use mindfulness, which comes from the Buddhist tradition. And so that left me asking the question uh if mindfulness is so popular, one, why in the United States is mindfulness so popular if you know under 1% identify as Buddhist? And two, does the Christian tradition tradition offer practices that are more anchored to scripture uh and Christian writings uh so that Christians can draw from our own tradition rather than mindfulness? So uh that that led me down a path of going further and further and further back, uh, starting with uh what's called centering prayer, which was developed like in the 1970s by some Trappist monks. And then I realized, well, that's not even an original work that is anchored to the cloud of unknowing. And then that's led me further back. And I went all the way back to looking at scripture and the use of meditation in scripture, and then the early desert fathers and mothers, and then so just just it opened up this whole uh tradition, uh, that and then even Puritan meditation. So the Puritans have written a lot on meditative practices. So uh to answer your question, uh, I think personally, my own suffering led me to ask those kinds of questions, and then professionally not feeling uh really satisfied with you know clinical psychology and this huge mindfulness emphasis that's kind of taken over society when we have our own tradition to draw

Why Pain Must Be Faced

SPEAKER_01 4:34

from.

Dave Quak 4:34

That's awesome. You mentioned your own suffering and thanks for sharing your story. I also know you speak a lot into that now, like you're not afraid to risk, you know, dig into okay, what is happening with suffering and how does that help us return to Christ? You know, yeah. Can you talk a bit about a bit more about that, Dr. Joshua? Because maybe it's different over there with you guys, but so often I live in a hedonistic city, so the Gold Coast is very much beaches, image, and everything else. And a lot of the time it's seen as things that are good feel good, things that are bad are bad, but suffering can feel bad and still be good. And it's really sometimes hard to communicate that with people where they're just like, no, no, no, only good things, only beauty, Instagram shots. Well, what's deeper than that? There's got to be more than that.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah, I think personally and then professionally, I found that pursuing pleasure just doesn't work. Um, when we try to pursue pleasure and avoid pain, which I think it is understandable, right? Who wants to be uh, you know, in pursuit of pain? It finds us. We don't go looking for it, we're not masochistic. Most of us aren't. Um, but what do we do when pain comes knocking on our door? And and I think for me, trying to avoid pain and run from it didn't work. Uh, I did everything I could to really kind of anesthetize pain, and it didn't work in my own life. Uh, and I found that it was much more helpful to uh cry out to God, to lament to God, and seeing uh within scripture this idea of uh of leaning into emotional pain. I mean, from uh the Lament Psalms uh to Jeremiah, the the weeping prophet, to example after example, into the New Testament, example, Jesus wept, example after example of this idea that um our emotions are God-given signals, I think, that help us to understand life and enrich life, even emotional pain. Emotional pain, one clinical psychologist says that uh emotional pain is like a two-sided coin on one side, is the pain on the other side is our values, that our pain points us to what we value. And so uh it's been a journey for me, but one in which I've realized one, I can't run from my pain. When I do, it makes life worse. And two, when I try to wall off my emotional pain, it prevents me from understanding life in deeper ways. For example, sadness tells us we've lost something important and we need to slow down to grieve that loss and not be impulsive in replacing it so that we can be more intentional about what we want to do with it. Uh, fear tells us we're in danger in the present moment. Uh, anxiety tells us that we're anticipating danger out ahead. And so, you know, in a fallen, broken world, we need these emotions to help us. Um, even something like anxiety, which I think the Christian church grapples with and some might view it as a sin, uh, it's interesting that if we look at Jesus in the garden, um he was in agony, you know, the Greek word agonia, which is like anticipating uh an athlete going into competition or a um a soldier going into battle. And so there was this anticipatory anxiety even for Jesus. And so if if he can experience the full gamut of emotions from anger to sadness to to uh anxiety, uh, and and it's not sin necessarily to experience these emotions, it's what we do with them. Maybe I can lean into this idea that God works in and through my emotional pain. And so that was a huge um shift for me. I could remember it being in my own therapy. And at one point I was, because I'm an anxiety sufferer, I worry and I experience anxiety um um, you know, quite regularly. And uh I remember just essentially wanting my therapist to help the anxiety to go away for me. And he leaned in and he said, What if your anxiety is trying to tell you something? And it was sort of like a paradigm shifting moment for me from my childhood and trying to avoid pain to oftentimes getting that message in church that emotional pain might reveal some kind of sin or that we need to get rid of it. But it there was a shift in my perspective that helped me to say, wait a second, maybe I need to listen more to the pain that I'm going through. And maybe God isn't absent in the pain, but present in the pain. So that I think was a huge part of shifting from maybe that more hedonistic way of looking at things, that the psychological health is about being free from pain, but recognizing that it's okay that we experience these things and they they might be revealing an enriching life as a result.

Dave Quak 9:09

I think that's powerful. I reckon we have a long way to go in the churches understanding that. So I've been a pastor just for 22 years. I also walk with bipolar disorder, and so for me, anxiety is a part of the rhythms. It's just not it's not a matter of if but when. Like eventually there'll be a season. Right now, thank you, Jesus. I'm feeling quite free from it. But you know, who knows? This this the rhythms will get me there again. And I'm but it wasn't until the last few solid bouts of anxiety that I came into, like you were just speaking, about to start okay, I'm just praying it away is not working anymore, or grinning and bearing it's not working anymore. And I came across somebody who was uh uh a doctor of psychology as well, and she started taking me on a process of going through it rather than avoiding it and running away from it. And I the first few days were worse than just taking painkillers and going to sleep. But after a few days, when you start to frame it like you were just saying, something changed in me where I had hope for the first time in a long time. It was like, okay, this might come back again, but it doesn't have to kill me every time anymore. And so I like what you're saying because sometimes the lessons are fraught with having to confront something pretty scary. Um, but that's why I thank God for for Christian practic practitioners like yourself, because you're obviously, you know, you do a lot. I don't know how you even get any sleep with all you do. You've got your podcasts, you teach at university, you've got your own practice, all of that. But you like being on the cold face as well. You haven't withdrawn, like even though you could be in, you know, teaching at the university full-time and everything, you still do your own one-on-ones. What what makes it important for you to stay on the ground like that?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, I think, you know, I've always been someone who, yes, I want to do research and writing, but I've I felt called to help the church. Um, you know, I I I've for whatever reason didn't find in my uh, you know, adolescence and young adulthood that the church gave me real answers to suffering. Uh, and at best it was sort of like, go, you know, go see the therapist down the road. But I I I wanted uh to grapple with suffering within the four walls of the church. And so I think really needing to one, lead by example and to help people to see that even a psychologist suffers and even a psychologist doesn't have it all figured out, and we're really kind of walking together through suffering. Um, and so I think that's been important to me because I really do want to help to equip the church to be able to grapple. I mean, if you think about it, I mean, what what greater way to evangelize to non-Christian communities than to say that we understand suffering and we have uh the antidote to suffering and that it might not be on this side of heaven that we're free from it, but eventually there will be no more tears, no more suffering, and when we're face to face with God in heaven. Um, I like to um kind of one of my newer definitions of Christian mental health from more of a Trinitarian perspective is to be empowered by the Holy Spirit uh to walk with the Son home to the Father. And I think that's the Christian life. It's it's good. It's you know, the the Holy Spirit offers us. This is John Owen in his uh communion with the triune God, that you know, Puritan John John Owen, but he says that the Holy Spirit offers comfort, the son offers grace, and the father offers love. And so, how does that work in the Christian life? I think we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within, who helps us to be more like Christ as we walk through suffering on this side of heaven, but we're heading to that destination, which is to be face to face with God, which is, you know, fancy theological language, the beatific vision, right? That this life we can get through suffering because of what's next for us, and that gives us hope.

Lament Psalms And The Both And

Dave Quak 12:58

I like that. Psalm 88. Is that on your list of favorites?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Quak 13:04

I just can't believe, unless I'm misinterpreting it, but basically at the end, he just yells out darkness, and that's the end. You know, sometimes our Christian messages don't end in the beautiful prayer time with somebody crying and re-re-committing their lives to Jesus. Sometimes they're just still stuck in the darkness.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Hey, yeah, I love, I love how you know, so much of the Psalms captures the full spectrum of uh the emotional life, right? And it's the from, you know, I I love uh uh Walter Bregeman who wrote the message of the Psalms. He says, you know, there are psalms of uh uh orientation, disorientation, and new orientation, and those are the seasons of life. And so there are seasons of praise and and giving thanks to God and gratitude and and uh delighting in God, and then there are seasons of disorientation, the lament seasons where we cry out to God, there's a complaint to God. Uh, and yes, there's also a praise to God, but it doesn't mean we always have a resolution. Uh, and I I like to call that the both and of the Christian life. There's suffering and there's complaints and there's lamenting, and we can also praise God and give thanks to God. But then I love how there's seasons of new orientation, according to Bregman, where um we're surprised by joy again and and God's providential care and God leads us into you know seasons of blessings and but it's it's both and in this life, and and we we can accept that that there's both, not try to be overly dichotomous and and pick one or the other.

Dave Quak 15:11

Yeah. If you don't mind, if we can circle back to the uh the practices, the spiritual practices. So say somebody's listening, they're feeling anxious or depressed or something, and they're not ready to go see anybody as yet, they're still carrying it themselves as a lot of people do. How would the spiritual practices or what kind of spiritual practices could they implement or start exploring to nudge them forward towards a little bit more freedom?

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah.

unknown 15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

So I've written on and done research on a variety of them coming out of really all three of the branches of Christianity, from Catholic to Orthodox to Protestant. And when I do so, I think evangelically about them. And so I try to draw from them, but also theologically anchor myself

Training Attention With Scripture Meditation

SPEAKER_01 15:56

to the Protestant tradition. But I would say a few different skills can be developed with these practices uh anchored to the Christian tradition. One would be uh attention. And so what we focus on is huge in the Christian life, and so Christian meditation, where we're we might use synonyms like ruminate or meditate or chew on or dwell on or ponder. So focusing on God's promises in scripture, uh, I will never leave you or forsake you, for example, can be huge uh in shifting from if we get stuck in patterns of negative thinking, worry or worrying about the future or ruminating about the past or getting just getting stuck in unhelpful thinking patterns. So shifting our attention, not trying to get rid of the thoughts, because I think getting into an arm wrestling match with them doesn't work uh in the long run, but noticing them and then shifting our attention towards scripture, uh, short passages that we kind of chew on. If if the assumption is we're always meditating on something throughout the day, it's what we want to intentionally chew on or meditate on. So it could be something as simple as for 10 minutes um in a quiet environment, we close our eyes and we begin to just notice our mind and what's going through our mind, and then gently shift our attention to I will never leave you nor forsake you. Right. And we're just just kind of slowly, uh gently and within reciting that um passage. And then when we notice, inevitably we go back to worry or complaining or uh looking at um, you know, how things are not the way we want them to be, that we just notice that and bring our attention back. Uh and we can do that formally or we could do that informally, uh, as long as you know we're we're safe. If we're driving, of course, keep your eyes open, kind of a thing. Uh, but I mean, we can throughout the day, even each day, just select a short passage. It's almost like chewing a piece of gum all day long, right? We're just noticing that we're doing it. Uh, and instead of kind of being on automatic pilot where we're just aimlessly going through the day, but we're more intentional about what we choose to focus on, ponder, uh, that kind of thing. So that would be one practice. Um, and you know, the um Christian writings talk about this idea that ruminating is sort of like a cow chewing cut in the field, right? Uh, extracting the nutrients. And so that's what we're doing with meditating on scripture. Instead of um meditating on worry or rumination or things that are gonna, you know, impair functioning or lead to depression or anxiety or uh, you know, additional trauma symptoms, we're deciding intentionally to focus on scripture. So that would be one practice. Um, one other one, if there's time, just to kind of mention my favorite is okay, excellent, uh, is the Jesus prayer. I love the Jesus prayer. It comes out of the Orthodox tradition. Um, the the long version is Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me as sinner. The sinner part was added on later. So probably a more accurate um earlier version is Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me. My favorite version is just uh uh because it it's balanced. Uh you inhale, Lord Jesus Christ, and then you exhale, have mercy on me. And what's nice is you get into kind of a pattern uh uh with your breathing, you're inhaling Jesus, and we're exhaling everything else, sort of letting go

The Jesus Prayer For Soothing

SPEAKER_01 19:22

of everything else. And what I like about the prayer is uh in the Orthodox tradition, in the in the Philokalia, um, they emphasize the word mercy, right? And mercy is we could we could look at it as withholding punishment, um, but it's also God's loving kindness. And so uh we're what we're doing is we're saying, Jesus, you know, bestow your loving kindness on me. Um, and interestingly, in some writings on the Jesus Bird, they point out that a similar Greek word to Elios, mercy, is um the Greek word for olive oil, something along the lines of Elion. And uh they basically point out that as we're asking Jesus for mercy, it's like we're uh asking Jesus to soothe us, soothe our wounds, like olive oil was used in the first century. So that to me is so powerful as we as we experience emotional pain. We're not trying to get rid of the pain. We're saying, Jesus, soothe me in my anxiety, soothe me in my sadness, soothe me in my fear, soothe me in my anger. And I just love that image of Jesus soothing, not praying it away, uh, which is unrealistic, probably unattainable in this life, but but that it's about like almost like a parent soothing a dysregulated child, right? Instead of saying, stop feeling that way, it's sort of like it's gonna be okay. So that's a powerful one for me when I get uh down, depressed, anxious, maybe I'm dealing with frustration and anger for the day. It's Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me uh as a way to notice what we're experiencing and then recognizing Jesus' presence in the midst of it.

Dave Quak 21:01

Yeah, that's powerful. There was a really unhelpful practice going through the Aussie churches about 10 years ago where people would say, All right, come on in, leave your troubles at the door and let's go and worship God. You know, as if you just pick them up on the way back out. But like you said, the soothing, you bring it in, you know, you're in the presence of God still, and you're getting soothing, but you're still it's still there. Let's be realistic, it's still there. Josh, I liked what you said about chewing the cud. I wonder something that's just probably for my own benefit. So I one time was hating on a member of the congregation. I know we're not supposed to, but I was. And while I was doing it, I was ruminating and mowing the lawn. And then nearly every time I mowed the lawn after that for the next six months, straight away it triggered to ruminating about hating that very person. There was something so powerful about my negative rumination that it just triggered it every time. Is it the same with positive rumination where it establishes a pattern? So say I had to done the same thing, but I was ruminating on something pure or right or noble or lovely. Is it the same where it establishes a neuropathway that next

Rewiring Rumination Through Watchfulness

Dave Quak 22:09

time I mow the lawn, maybe I'll think of that again?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I think so. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think there can be like like I'll, you know, just to confess, I'm someone, I think it's also my training as a clinical psychologist. We're we're trained to, you know, diagnose and focus on what goes wrong. And I will, you give me as any scenario, I will focus on what what's going wrong in that scenario. Right. And so uh I I think absolutely that um for me, that's kind of my default, but I can Get into the habit if I'm intentional of noticing it and shifting it. And for me, I would say it's more of uh how quickly I can pivot or shift my attention from the unhealthy, the unhelpful to the healthy and the helpful. Yes. And then so we get into a rhythm or a habit. It's like, you know, uh being in marriage and with couples. Uh, when I work with couples, um, you can't eliminate fighting, you can't eliminate arguing, uh, but you can uh quicker get back on track and repair the rupture. And I think it's like that with our mind. Uh, we might, you know, very regularly veer off course, uh, head down a dark alleyway, if you will, and in our thinking, mind wander towards a darker place. But I think we get into the habit of more quickly, uh, we might call it, you know, the fancy language is metacognition or thinking about our thinking. The early desert Christians, uh, they use the word, uh, the Greek word nepsis or watchfulness, that we can get into the habit of being more watchful of these patterns and recognize them and recognize, I don't want to keep ruminating about this congregant today. I'd I'd rather pray for them and and uh repair the rupture with them and reconcile on the way to court or whatever it is, right? And so we can notice when that happens and then gently bring our mind towards something else. So I think we get into that habit of more of that meta perspective where we're able to see those patterns and then make a decision. Do I really want to ruminate as I'm going the lawn or do I want to be more worshipful as I'm moving the lawn and thank God for this beautiful day and this green grass? And right, so we could be more intentional about that.

Dave Quak 24:15

That's awesome. You speak from you mentioned before the three Christian perspectives, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant. But because you reference, you know, Buddhism and stuff, do you ever get heat from the Christians that you're trying to introduce practices from other movements or anything? Because sometimes I overhear people who even speak about other movements will be like, oh, they're they're new age all of a sudden. You're like, no, I'm just I'm a studier, I'm a you know, I'm a researcher.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah, I I think so. I think there are some Christians who see it as new age, see it as automatic. Whenever you were use the word meditation, yeah, uh, I when I do, it's automatically assumed to be uh, you know, Buddhist or Eastern, or and I and I think some of that is because of how popular mindfulness

Is Meditation New Age

SPEAKER_01 24:59

is right now. And and many Christians don't really look that biblically meditation is used quite a bit in scripture, uh, and that we have practices, even in the Protestant tradition, uh, you know, kind of the theological heavyweights of the Protestant tradition were the Puritans, right? Or many of them. And and uh they for many conservative Christians would say they're a trusted source. Many don't realize that there were dozens and dozens of books written on Christian meditation, biblical meditation. So I think it's about understanding the fears that come from a good place, maybe, you know, this idea of syncretism and the churches kind of be infected by the surrounding secular culture or these movements. But so acknowledging that and recognizing it comes from a good place and wanting to protect the tradition, but uh, but also seeing that from within our tradition we have this rich heritage to draw from so that we don't have to draw from New Age or Eastern practices.

Dave Quak 25:53

Yeah, powerful. You've got a lot of projects happening now. What are you looking forward to? I haven't met a researcher who stopped researching. So you obviously have something else on your book, maybe in front of you on the table that I can't see. Like what's next for you?

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah, a couple of things. One is right now we're actually researching, doing research on the Holy Spirit and mental health. Uh, in in some of the Protestant circles I'm a part of, the Holy Spirit sometimes gets mentioned the least as we think about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And so um we're doing some research on the Holy Spirit and including um kind of a meditative practice to uh meditate on the fruit of the spirit. Um, right now in uh clinical psychology, what's called loving-kindness meditation is everywhere.

Holy Spirit Research And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 26:37

It's you know, it comes from the Buddhist tradition and it's basically may I be at peace, may I be at ease, may I be free from suffering. And the idea is to cultivate um, you know, four positive emotions, including loving-kindness and compassion. But in our own tradition, we have uh the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the spirit. And so what we're doing is researching a Christian alternative to loving-kindness meditation so that we can really maintain an awareness of the indwelling Holy Spirit uh to bear the fruit. So, you know, the the meditation is something as simple as God, may you fill me with your perfect love. God, may you fill me with your perfect peace, patience, kindness. And we just go through, and so it's a way to recognize the Holy Spirit's presence within and then also live live out this um idea that we can be the hands and feet in God and display the fruit. So that we're actually doing an intervention study on that right now.

Dave Quak 27:34

Oh, that's powerful. When that's done, can we get you back? Because that sounds fascinating and practical too. Yep, absolutely. Glad to. Yeah. No, that is amazing. I um I think what you're doing is really powerful, Dr. Joshua. Like I, you know, I'm a Christian, I've got mental health issues. To have other Christians who are speaking into this space from a place of authority, a place of research, a place of actually living it out and then implementing things, is really powerful for the rest of us. So I really want to thank you for your part within the body. Um, if people want to grab your resources or buy your books, what's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah, it's just my my name, joshuaNab.com. Um, there's you know book links, but also free resources. So I got a lot of MP3s, like guided meditative practices that we've researched. I got a few manuals from the research studies that are actually written directly to Christians uh and some other resources for free there as well. Uh there's a link to my podcast on my website as well.

Dave Quak 28:33

It's a good website. Do you do that or do you have someone just on a side note?

SPEAKER_01 28:37

I I I just do it, I did it myself. Yeah.

Dave Quak 28:39

It's really good. It is, it's really good.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Dave Quak 28:42

Yeah. Um, in a moment, I'll get you to pray to finish us off today. But do you have anything else that's burning on your heart that you'd like to share as we start to wind up?

Resources New Book And Closing Prayer

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I have a new book that just came out on uh actually worship. And so um that, you know, check that out. It's this idea that um what we choose to worship is key in life, um, and we can worship creation or the creator. And oftentimes we're miserable psychologically because we end up worshiping the wrong things, uh, given we're inevitably created to worship. Uh, and so the whole book is about from a mental health perspective, shifting from creation worship, worshiping the self, others or things to worshiping God, and that indirectly we end up uh living a full life, um, you know, a life of flourishing when we're in a right position with God, which is that we're the created and we're designed to worship. And so, yeah, check check that out. Uh, that's the newest thing that I've been kind of thinking through and writing on, and hopefully it can help Christian communities.

Dave Quak 29:43

Oh, that's so good. Dr. Joshua, thank you so much for being here today. We really appreciate it. Lots of gold for us. Um, yeah, if you could close us out by praying for the listeners, that would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah, let's pray. Father, we're just so grateful for this opportunity uh from other sides of the world to be able to communicate and and that we can uh just have this conversation to help uh the body, your body. And so we just pray that listeners out there can benefit from this conversation, that we can continue this conversation so that uh Christians have uh resources within our own tradition to ultimately grow closer to you and as a result uh experience some relief from suffering as they walk with you to their final destination, to be with you face to face. And so we pray that you uh bless them and and and resource them with all the various um uh uh just resources within our own tradition to help them. And we pray these things in your son's name. Amen.

Dave Quak 30:47

Amen.