The future of design education, creative confidence and sparking curiosity - Diana Varma

"If we don't define success for ourselves, others - society, capitalism, all the things - will define it for us." 

Diana Varma, a design educator at Toronto Metropolitan University, shares her journey from print production to teaching, discussing her innovative approach to education through "ungrading" and fostering creative confidence. 

She emphasizes the importance of curiosity-driven learning and redefining success beyond traditional metrics. Through her experiences in print production, health and safety training, and ultimately university teaching, she demonstrates how nonlinear career paths can lead to meaningful work. Her teaching philosophy combines technical expertise with a deep understanding of how to nurture creativity and resilience in students.

Key Takeaways:

• Traditional grading systems can hinder creative learning and intrinsic motivation
• Success should be measured by personal growth rather than comparison to others
• Confidence in creativity comes from embracing the process over final outcomes
• "Creative cousins" can serve as inspiration without becoming comparison targets
• Teaching should focus on sparking curiosity rather than just transferring information
• Vulnerability and periods of retreat (like lobsters) are essential parts of growth
• The journey and learning process are more valuable than the final creative product

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Transcript

Diana Varma: [00:00:00] I think that if we can help students understand, to, as much as possible, limiting time on social media is a very good idea, for all of us, everyone in the whole world. But I think if we can help them understand that they are not racing against others, they are simply trying to outgrow their previously non fitting shells.

they're trying to be better than they were yesterday. if we're working towards growth and progress, not perfection, not comparison, I think that goes a very long way to reassuring them and it feels more human. we're comparing it to lobsters, but it feels a lot more human to live that way. 

Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a [00:01:00] show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radek Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

Are you ready?  

Radim Malinic: My guest today works as a design educator at Toronto Metropolitan University by day and is a podcaster by night. She gets [00:02:00] creative with creatives about all things creative. She's a curious human who doubles in a variety of printing technologies, and she currently holds the position of VP of education on the board of directors for the RGD,Canada's largest professional association for graphic designers. In our conversation, we talk about her journey from pre production to teaching, discussing her innovative approach to educating through ungrading, and fostering creative confidence with an emphasis on the importance of curiosity driven learning and redefining success beyond traditional metrics.

It's my pleasure to introduce Diana Varma.  

Radim Malinic: Hey Diana, it's nice to have you on the show. How are you doing? 

Diana Varma: Hi, I'm good. Thank you. 

for those who may have not heard of you, would you introduce yourself? 

Absolutely. So I am Diana Varma and I don't know, I like to use the overarching name, title, [00:03:00] whatever of curious human.

take that as you will, but I'm a design educator by day, a podcaster by night. I do a little of this, a little of that. I like to experiment. I like to dabble in various creative mediums and I just try things and see how they work out.

 I live just north of Toronto with my family and I work at Toronto Metropolitan University, which is formerly Ryerson University for anyone.

Canadian local based, you'll recognize probably that name better than TMU, the big. lengthy name of our university now, but I, have the pleasure of teaching in the School of Graphic Communications Management. So I work with undergrads and I also teach in the Master of Digital Media program. And so I work with graduate students and it's a whole different world when.

You're working with mature students. It's both situations, undergrad and graduate have their own unique opportunities and challenges, but I just, love working with students and planting some of these [00:04:00] seeds of ideas of creative confidence. into their minds. 

Radim Malinic: So how did you find yourself in teaching?

Was there ever a plan or how did you get into it? What's your background? 

Diana Varma: Oh, it's a long story. I have no formal teaching education, but, I have been a teacher since I can remember. And it,started very young if we're thinking about origin stories, I was a swim instructor and I, started, working very young as a teacher.

I worked and taught at summer camp. I eventually, running a small health and safety company. And so I was training all different people, all different walks of life and all different scenarios all the time. That was like my, PhD in teaching was on the ground. Teaching 2, 500 people how to do first aid and CPR.

yeah, and then it's a winding road, but all is to say that teaching and education has been my passion informally for a long time. And thankfully in the last 12 or 13 years, it's been my passion [00:05:00] formally, at the university level. So it's, started with the single course and then I was offered another and I think up to about 90.

university level courses I've taught at this point. 

Radim Malinic: I like a winding road. I'm definitely here for the nonlinear stories 

Where does creativity come into play with this?

Because you are teaching health and safety and CPR and. you're a specialist on design and print, you're teaching in graphics, I think it's a potentially very good background for flapping students, worrying about deadlines, whereas you go I can give you CPI if you need to, you 

Diana Varma: can come to your aid if you really need it.

so I should say, I do have a formal background and my training is, not in design specifically, but in print production. and the kind of the creative, technical and strategic side of the communications industry, the visual communications industry. so I worked for a book printer for a number of years.

and it wasn't a terribly creative job. It was in sales. I was in project management. I [00:06:00] was working with publishers who were providing the creative assets and we were manufacturing essentially. I had an opportunity to step out of that, step into that health and safety kind of small business that I built and it was really for me to have my quarter life crisis and run away from the industry I had trained to be in and say, okay, what else can I try?

And, It was this like masterclass in creativity for me. I had full creative control of the business and who I worked with and how I communicated my wares. And it was like this teeny tiny little incubated idea that I could run with. And that was really the start of all things iterative and creative just experimental in my approach to my work now.

On this winding road, after I did that full time for a number of years, I was brought Back to my alma mater where they said, Hey, we need someone [00:07:00] to help us coordinate interns. And I said, yeah, I can do that. sure. So I did both for a time and then was offered a single course to teach and then another and another and another.

And then again, over the last, 12, 13, 14 years, I've really tried to,ramp up my skill set in the design space, which is what I discovered. Oh, hey, I really like this. The production side is great. I find it. is important to know and it's invaluable to be able to actually know how to set up a file for print and actually print.

I run a small offset press at the school I teach but ultimately it's the design, it's the typography, it's the creativity, it's the collaborative collective effervescence, the communication, all of that stuff, that kind of where I found myself that really gets me jazzed. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, I can definitely feel that passion.

let's go back up even, to a younger age, like where does the sort of love for creativity ever started? Mm 

Diana Varma: So again, where I teach now is ultimately where I went to [00:08:00] school. and so that program has a creative arm, but also has the technical and strategic arm.

So it's funny because if we think about moments in time that are these pivotal moments where we go, Oh, that's when that thing was a catalyst for the rest of the things to happen. let's go back to high school for a second. I was. In my final year of high school, I didn't quite know what I wanted to do.

I was a drama kid. I was a band geek. I was a creative person, in high school, and I really thought I wanted to get into, broadcasting, media, and, funny enough, do this for a living, and talk in front of a camera, or something for a living.and I went to an open house at the university, where I eventually then went, and I was in such a bad mood, and I was like, we need to leave.

And my mom said, I have taken a day off work. We spent time and money to [00:09:00] park. are going to see some program, like you are not leaving here without seeing something. And so I stumbled upon this program, Graphic Communications Management, where I ultimately found myself and secured my little spot in the world and it was total happenstance that day I was just pissed off and My mom was pissed off because I was pissed off and we just found ourselves sitting there.

And, Mary Black is her name. she has since passed, but she was one of the big driving forces of women in the printing industry in Canada for many, many years. And she was the chair of the school at the time. And she, in within about five to 10 minutes, sold me, sold my, desire for the program, sold my love of.

the world of print, and, the rest is history. 

Radim Malinic: Did you feel like with that encounter with Mary Black, did you all of a sudden start seeing the world through a different pair of eyes? Because now you start seeing the technicalities of printing, you start seeing the [00:10:00] editorial design. 

 how was that change for you? Cause obviously I'm hoping you're no longer pissed off because you was, loving the course, you've got your lead in person there and how did that change your view of everything?

Because it must have had some effect on you. 

Diana Varma: I think she was just, as you can see from my little sign back here, be a badass. Mary Black was just like a real badass. and she single handedly built the building that I now work in, which is wild. Like she sat at the time in the 90s, a group of an all male board of directors down and said, listen, we need your money.

I need your money. We need 10 million. Figure it out. It's going to happen. You're going to make it happen. Let's do this. And so she just always had that,presence in a room and knew how to command a room in a way that I was like, I didn't know this was a thing. And so like her leadership and her kind of watching the way she moved through the world was inspirational for sure.

Yeah.   

Radim Malinic: I think some of that be badass attitude definitely rubbed off on you because you seem to have that [00:11:00] sort of get go and, that sort of pizazz. so this is interesting. So you talk about being a band geek and you want it to be in media.did you always feel confident?

Always feel I've got it. because you don't come across as an introvert. Yeah. 

Diana Varma: No, I'm probably not an introvert. I would say though, if we're thinking of introversion and extroversion as where you get your energy versus feeling confident on stage or something like that, or in front of people, I think I'm probably an ambivert.

I'm probably somewhere in the middle where I need human connection to re energize myself, but at times I also need time by myself to re energize. but in terms of confidence, I'd like to think that I've been confident for a long time. don't know. I feel like it would be really interesting to see video footage of myself from 20 or 25 years ago, to answer that question.

I always felt myself very capable in the sense that everything is figureoutable. So maybe from that [00:12:00] perspective, yes. just doing new things has always been an adrenaline rush. And so I think it's fear over trying something new and failing. I would rather try something new and fail than not do it at all.

Radim Malinic: that's a good way of saying it. yeah, that's an interesting way of what you say, like confident from a young age. . it fantastic about going and following where you want it to be. so you're on this course, you're getting into world of print. you start seeing the world of design and creativity in a totally different way. It was then it pivotal. Publications you've seen or something like that piece of creativity that you've come across and you were like, Oh, that makes perfect sense.

This is what I want to do. This is what I want to get 

Diana Varma: thinking back to high school. I remember thinking I would love to work for a magazine, and I don't know why I thought that, but growing up in the 90s as a teenage girl, my walls were plastered with cutouts of magazine [00:13:00] and collage, and that was just Something that was such an expression of my identity as a backstreet boy loving 13 year old in the 90s, but no, I think, I always had this inkling that I love the tactility of paper and I was always a crafty kid.

So my mom. desperately wanted me to love Barbie. I had the most beautiful Barbie accessories. I wanted nothing to do with them. I just wanted crayons or markers and paper. That's all I wanted. I could never draw. I'm not an illustrator, but I would create things. I would be able to take that raw material and be endlessly thrilled.

by paper, which is the exact same way I exist today. 

Radim Malinic: tell me about your way through a printing press. How did you, get to know all of the, intricate nature of, actually getting something on press and making it show that, you've set up your file. Okay. did it work?

Okay.   

Diana Varma: Yeah. [00:14:00] So again, I was very fortunate to be in this weird niche unicorn of a program where we were taught that we're not taught to be designers. We're not taught just to be business people, entrepreneurs, but we were taught to understand the process, how to actually set up a file, how to make sure that we're thinking through, basically finishing with the end in mind is what we like to say, right?

So thinking all the way back through the workflow, and that included like actually working with our hands on an offset printing press and using digital technology and exploring all different kind of ways in which stuff gets printed. so I think for me thinking about what that kind of pivotal.

Piece might have been, I think it was later when I was in my internship and ultimately where I worked at the book, printer, who I worked for. And it was just seeing kind of the volume and variety and way in [00:15:00] which the sausage is made, the way in which the books are made, the way in which these giant presses and this kind of manufacturing workflow all came together.

And to tie in teaching. It became my very favorite thing. I was the person who gave the tours. A client came in. They wanted a tour. They wanted to understand the process. I would walk them through the facility and passionately point out the presses. So I think that was, again, a gateway or a marrying of kind of all of these little bread crumbs that were being left.

By my past self, converging and coming together in new ways that would then see me 15, 20 years in the future, doing this, having fun, being weird.

Radim Malinic: 

How much of fun was it for you to actually be getting to really to understand the basics of typography? you, you talk passionately when you're on your podcast and your guest podcast about typography.

Radim Malinic: Like I'm not sure I'm going to be able to produce it, pronounce the word. encyclopedic knowledge [00:16:00] of typography, like how it should be set and stuff, because you don't pick it up on day one or two. you really have to be curious about this and you want to know that because I think the magical part about being a designer is like half of it's aesthetic and half of it's basically rules that you can't move.

We all want to break rules, there are certain things you can't break. So what was your journey from absorbing this world of books and, as you said, volume and diversity and all of that, what was that like? 

Diana Varma: Yeah, it was great. It was so much fun. actually, it's really funny.

So later, as I worked there for a few years and I was, in sales, the two genres of books that for whatever reason, attracted clients that produced these, but I get a stack of books hot off the press, literally on my desk to be then mailed to like a to clients or whatever, but it was always.

Harlequin romance novel esque things, very racy covers, I don't even know, there was some interesting titles that [00:17:00] landed on my desk, and then children's books. So it was like this wonderful, ridiculous mix of things that I got to work on. don't know, I'm still learning.

I'm always learning. There's so much incredible, visual, printed, digital communication out there, particularly with books. Books are, where I started and where I still find the most joy and love and passion in the world of print. But there's just so much to take in that I'm learning all the time.

so I don't know that it was one kind of pivotal point or one process. It's just like this curiosity. that you've talked about too, is just always being like, Oh, what is that? Oh, I've never seen that before. Oh, I wonder how they did that. And it, all builds and grows and is this continuous iterative process.

many of my students, think about their education in very finite four year windows and then once they leave, they have their education and you're laughing because it's just, you're always [00:18:00] learning. It's always you're having to fill in gaps in your own knowledge.

You're having to problem solve. You're having to, I don't know, come up with new and interesting ideas. And so all of that requires learning. I can tell my students like, hey, love what you're learning, figure out a way to learn in a way that you love because you're going to be doing this for a long time.

so I think it's constant. It's cumulative. It's continuous. curiosity fuelled. 

Radim Malinic: You said it could feel like a finite time to learn of those four years. And the more I look back, the reason why I was laughing, because when I wanted to be a rock star, when I was 16, I was like, I'm not even going to go to college.

I'm like, what for you know? And then you get to a bit over to older age, you're like, you Get your bits about yourself. You're like, maybe I should do something, maybe I'll sober up and do something sensible because maybe I won't be a rock star.

And when you get to a later age, you're like, Oh my God, life is amazing. there's so much to learn every day. And you can go for as well for myself. [00:19:00] certified curious idiots to a mastermind ready, 

And when you get to your forties, you can go from an idiot to mastermind ready in two months, because it's there and you actually have that sort of more space in your life to actually do it. Whereas I do a lot of talks for a university.

I do and bless them. They're like, Oh, really? And how do I do this? And how do I do that? I'm like, have you actually tried to make it? No, I haven't yet. I'm like, is it a really wrong time for us to be actually trying to learn something when we feel maybe so confused about the world and life, especially in later teenage years?

What's your opinion on that? Is it the right time to learn stuff, or is it just the type of personalities? 

Diana Varma: Oh, I have so much to say. I think you've struck a chord. I think that there's never a wrong time to learn. I think you have to be in the right headspace to want to learn, about a given subject area.  

it's never going to be an optimal time. but what I will say is one of my very [00:20:00] favorite, most influential kind of thought leaders in education, who is Sir Ken Robinson. So he talks about the idea that children are born creative, but the creativity is, worked out of them.

Creative thinking is worked out of them as we get older and more serious and things are regimented and there's rules and whatever else comes into play. So I think that for me, in the way I try to approach. education for undergraduate students and graduate students is through this kind of exploratory lens.

I see it as my job not to teach them necessarily this big chunk of information that they're going to carry with them in this heavy backpack that they'll carry through life. They'll forget stuff. If you're not using a lot of the tools and techniques and whatever, you'll forget it. But what I do want to hopefully.

have them take with them is curiosity, like I've sparked something where they [00:21:00] go, Oh yeah, I want to learn about this more on my own for my own good reasons. And I think if we can do that as educators, keeping someone excited about a given topic, giving them pathways for further exploration, giving them something to leave with where they go, huh, Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way.

I think that is the true goal of my own kind of educational journey. And I used to like, 12, 13, 14 years ago when I started teaching courses at the university level, I was terrified. I was speaking of confidence, I, I had to stand up there and at least pretend like I looked like I knew what I was doing, but I was really truly only about, I don't know, four or five, six years older than the people I was, speaking to.

I guess where I'm going with this is, With time, I have learned to relax the way I teach and my approach to teaching, so that it is all about the [00:22:00] curiosity. I hope they learn things. I hope we're working towards learning objectives. We're doing all of the academically rigorous things, but I hope they leave with a curiosity for the subject matter.

Whereas 12, 13 years ago, I was doing it by the book. I was approaching education the way I had been taught. the only ways I knew it was much more serious. It was much less. grey, much more black and white. And so I think, I don't know if I've answered your question at all, and we've gone on another, roundabout journey, but I don't think there's a bad time to learn.

And I do think there are ways in which we can help facilitate learning that, are more impactful than other ways? 

Radim Malinic: I think that's a very good answer. I think, yeah, there is no such thing as a bad time to learn. I think, especially when you've got, your fullest potential to actually, take on as much information as you can at a younger age.

But what you said quite beautifully, like, how do you get them curious about stuff? Because I think it's easy to be [00:23:00] distracted by life, especially when you are. First time away from home. Now you're tapping into some freedoms and the students I've seen who do really well are the students who really went there to teach and said, okay, I'm going to say no to all the temptations and actually focus on being the best I can be, .

There's the paradox of Oh, the university, they don't teach software skills. They don't do this. they don't get us ready for employment. I'm like, yeah, I've seen people come out of university who are like so employable that there is like a five different agency.

We'll try to get them. But that person spent pretty much every minute of their waking life within the university, actually teaching us as how to be really, really good. And that kind of makes me think of concept of creative athletes, when you get an athlete. who wants to be really, really good.

You can't just say Hey, you know what? I'll make you a bit curious about this. what can I do? How can I do it? Like sometimes you actually need that conviction and that sort of waking that up and someone's, it's almost showing them that there's a way to do it because that might not always be as clear.

to them, because as you said, through,that beautiful explanation [00:24:00] from Ken Robinson, sometimes when you get to that university level, like you might have not been in an encounter with people who were curious and actually wanted you to be the best possible version of yourself. So I do like that you say you want to get them to be curious.

Can you make a person be curious if they're not? 

Diana Varma: Absolutely. Understand your audience, know what they're interested in. And there's always, I shouldn't say always, but there's oftentimes, especially in the world of visual communications, typography, design, what have you. there's gateways into people's curiosity.

So I think part of that is understanding the students in front of you and understanding what they really enjoy, understanding their kind of lived experiences and building bridges for those to be curious. 

Radim Malinic: Tell me more about how you build your bridges. I'm curious about building bridges. 

Diana Varma: Oh man. one thing I've done recently, I mean,I've done for a long time, but I've done [00:25:00] more formally recently is I teach classes that are probably anywhere between 25 to 90 students in a classroom at the same time. And I make a really important point, I don't know everyone's name, but I make it a point to learn names.

And I think that silly, simple, seemingly,obvious answer, which is to learn names and You will get buy in and you will be able to start building bridges, has been so important and so fundamental to building trust in the classroom, which then allows me to better understand them and build bridges, through conversation, through,exercises or assessments with lots of choice, right?

So choice in their subject matter that they explore. so for example, I teach a magazine making course and. And students get to choose what kind of magazine they want to make. it's completely [00:26:00] up to them. And all of a sudden you get this like massive buy in, this massive curiosity when they can see, Oh, the skills that you are trying to teach me, I can apply to this thing that I love.

Okay. I'm in.so that, offering to students an opportunity. I always call them invitations. Like I am inviting you to do this project. nothing is mandatory. it's your decision how you want to move through this course and ultimately the grade that you want to achieve and whatever else, but it's, finding those opportunities to make each course and each assessment feel as personal as possible to each student, even in large classes.

Radim Malinic: You must have seen quite huge differences of development in education in the last 14 years.what would you like to see in the future, in the next 14, 15 years? What would you like to see changing? 

Diana Varma: If you had any freedom to influence the education even further, what would you do? 

I know [00:27:00] exactly what I would do, and I'm trying to actively do it. Although there are constraints in the. system that is the university, and I understand why, but I would get rid of grades.

Grades suck. I think, in many cases, a hindrance to learning for intrinsic reasons. it's very, easy to get caught up in the trap of grades. And if we go back to my, origin story, again, in my beginnings, I was a good student. I was. But I knew how to, I don't want to say work the system because I feel like I was learning.

I was an engaged student. I was enthusiastic, whatever, but I could pick up on those details and I could really gamify school and get the grades that I wanted to get. And I think that, If I had different systems in place, I think I would have even been more motivated. I would have explored in different directions.

I would have, gotten even more out of the experience rather than having my worth determined by the [00:28:00] work that I do and the grade that I, get. So I'm a big believer in decoupling this world of work and worth, which often is expressed through grades in a not so helpful way, I believe.

Radim Malinic: I think that's definitely a valid way of seeing future, but would it in any way, it'd be potentially hindrance to their future, right? Because you go into the world that's Paying you almost accordingly, how good you are, or how clever you are, or, how clever you can go around a system and cheat the system.

Because the end product is as good you are, you're going to be potentially paid better. If you're not good, but you know how to sell yourself, you can still get paid really well. But if you're not very good, Or You Can't Sell Yourself. Would that then be a sort of soul crushing, existence to go, Actually, yeah, I was not prepared for this.

Diana Varma: So I think there's certainly a difference [00:29:00] between not being graded at all and being graded in a way that doesn't conform to traditional methods, which I think maybe is more along the lines of what I'm suggesting. I don't think it should be, feedback is incredibly important. So just to give you kind of the background of where I'm coming from, I use something called specifications grading in much of my courses.

what that looks like is we have a set of competencies. for example, for a given project, it needs to. be this word length, it needs to cover off these three things we learned in class, and it needs to be submitted by this date and time. And as long as you've met those three criteria, or however many, whatever they are, then you get the checkmark, and you're given lots of feedback along the way.

So what this type of system does The idea is you can try, you can take risks, you don't have to worry about going the safe route to get an A. You can do something weird and wacky and [00:30:00] experimental so long as you're still checking off those competencies. And so what I've found is that the academic rigor of work that is submitted is still very high.

Like no one's trying to cheat the system and just maybe there's one or two that try and skirt by and they're like, oh, I can get away with this. but what happens is students go, oh, I can do whatever I want so long as I conform to these three things. Okay. And all of a sudden there's this intrinsic motivation that takes flight and this curiosity that they are able to work within, and it takes the stress of grades off.

I'm not suggesting that we have no grades, no feedback. We just go through school and come out the other end and hope for the best. I think there still needs to be curriculum. I think there still needs to be very strategic kind of, intention behind the courses and the way we structure education.

Diana Varma: But ultimately, I don't think Especially in creative work, looking at two [00:31:00] pieces that both are in response to the same creative brief are both inherently interesting, are both solving the problem and saying this one's an A and this one's a B is helpful to students. I think lots of feedback, and yes, you've done the checkmark item, therefore you're working towards whatever grade you want in the course, is a much.

more human way to move through a system. I 

Radim Malinic: everything you're describing, it's an incredible sort of toolkit for unleashing their potential. you're looking into people like, how do you get them actually set up the right way for their future? Because how important part of this is actually looking after people's confidence.

How do you build their confidence? Because, you talk about feedback and done right way. You talk about, specific grading and that kind of stuff. That's very sort of mindful way of actually going about it that we working with the people in the right way and get them unstuck [00:32:00] and show them on the right path straight away.

So when did you become aware that confidence is quite a huge part of this and the way how we can be taught is actually, possible to do it in your way that's, more mindful and more human and more compassionate in a way. 

Diana Varma: Yeah. so there's a really great book. It's called Specifications Grading. And I don't even remember how I came across this book, but since then, this kind of world of what's called ungrading, which is a framework for rethinking traditional grading structures and ungrading is on a scale from like traditional grading, all the way through to what I do, which is in the middle to a fully self assessed course, which is full ungrading.

But I think as soon as I started to dive into this, I went, Oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Oh my gosh, there's so much potential here. Oh my gosh, why are we pigeonholing students into these traditional grades for each and every [00:33:00] project that they do when it's not necessary? And so then I tried, of course, then it was this wonderful, Oh, creative exercise for myself to try and figure out how to do this in a system that requires a final grade at the end of the semester.

And so it's just been like this puzzle to figure out how to do this. And since I've started and experimented since about 2018, now I'm teaching almost all of my courses use a form of ungrading. but it's been this kind of wonderful evolution and figuring out and going, okay, that worked this time.

Maybe I'll try this next time. And I've seen students enthusiasm. and confidence grow in ways that I did not even anticipate when I first dipped my toes in the water six years ago. 

Radim Malinic: You used a word I wanted to ask you about. happens when creativity meets confidence? 

Diana Varma: Everything happens. I think when creativity meets confidence, we are less afraid to [00:34:00] try. We're less afraid to fail. We're less afraid of the final result and much more in tune with the process. I'm at a point now in my own kind of creative practice and my own teaching practice. I should keep this to creative practice, but to say that the final results, whatever I'm making, whether it's a podcast episode, whether it's, some sort of book project, whatever it is, the actual final result is a small, sliver of.

the reason I'm doing it. So it's maybe five, 10 percent of, why I'm doing it is that final result. And the 90 or 95 percent of the value I get out of doing something is in the journey, is in the processes, in the figuring out, is who I'm becoming as I'm figuring it out. And so Yeah, I think that, ability to decouple work and worth is critically important [00:35:00] and so empowering when it comes to confidence and creativity.

I am not what I create. I am me. That's cool. Nothing's going to change that. If something's an absolute flop, so be it. If something's,incredible, so be it. the final result has much less power over me than maybe it used to. I 

Radim Malinic: it's music to my ears. get it, but when you talk to students and you actually tell them that 90 percent of this is the journey and, the is the sliver of your efforts.

How difficult can it be sometimes to actually instilled that idea that it's a continuous journey because we want to be sometimes validated as we go along. sometimes like you want to be reassured you're doing the right thing, but sometimes things don't into place until the last minute.

Like most, creative projects are a battleground battlefield building site and like it's delivered and I think there was a creative morning talk by someone who was saying there's no point of talking about happiness. [00:36:00] and creativity because most of the time no one's happy and then it comes together.

So do we crush their dreams at the beginning or do we actually prepare them for the future? 

Diana Varma: That's a good question. I don't know. giving students opportunities to fail, and when we talked last, I used this terminology as well, but lowercase f fail versus the uppercase f fail, giving them as many opportunities, to do that as possible, makes them better understand, Oh, this is okay. I can fail, and I'm still here, and I'm still figuring it out, and everything is iterative, and quantity equals quality, and I'm just gonna keep trucking along and, doing my thing.

so I don't know. I think that comes with time. I think I can plant the seeds and set up my assessments and my grading structure and exercises and workshops and all of the things to try and [00:37:00] plant those seeds. But ultimately, they'll figure it out with time, or maybe they won't, but, I can only do so much to plant that in there and they have to embody and figure it out for themselves, which is both easy and difficult, watching that happen.  

Radim Malinic: can definitely agree with that. I can definitely see can be absolutely both. But how do you see the modern, Creativity in a world that I feel is , we live in a hyperconnected world where we can see how some people might be, more talented, more successful, more attractive, because when I've seen the world from little squares.

It's set up for us to fail in a way. Like we said, fail, you're not going to look at Pinterest or Instagram or something else. You're like, I feel so great about myself because everyone's more talented. Everyone's already doing things and I am not. And to actually. Reassure yourself that you actually live in your own life, in your own journey, and you are potentially at the starting point and you've seen people like 20 years down the line, that can be [00:38:00] potentially so confusing because like, how do you get people to understand that and accept it and actually get them to slow down because yours and my journey.

20 years, more than 20 years of like actually finding, failing, discovering. And we say failing, like getting things wrong. We didn't fail because we're still here. We're doing still the same thing. But does it feel now that there's more pressure to be something or someone much quicker than we did?

Diana Varma: I think so. have to ask you though, Radim, you know about lobsters? 

Radim Malinic: I'm not a specialist. 

Diana Varma: Nor am I, but I'm curious. I was curious. I am curious. So lobsters, they, never stop growing. And A lobster, as I understand it, will grow until their shell quite literally does not fit anymore.

And then they will shed that shell. They will be vulnerable because they have no shell and they're just this like fleshy bit of meat floating around at the bottom of the [00:39:00] So they will crawl into a dark place. until their, I don't know, is it an exoskeleton? Oh boy, my biology knowledge is failing me, but their shell grows back and it now fits.

And then they go back out into the world. They do their thing, they keep growing. And all of a sudden they have to shed their next shell and they keep this cycle, this ebbing and flowing of growth and then replenishment or retreat. to grow their new shell, and then when they're ready, they go back out into the world.

I think that if we can help students understand, to, as much as possible, limiting time on social media is a very good idea, for all of us, everyone in the whole world. But I think if we can help them understand that they are not racing against others, they are simply trying to outgrow their previously non fitting shells.

they're trying to be better than they were yesterday. if we're [00:40:00] working towards growth and progress, not perfection, not comparison, I think that goes a very long way to reassuring them and it feels more human. we're comparing it to lobsters, but it feels a lot more human to live that way. 

Radim Malinic: here for such analogies.

I absolutely love it. I think that's a really good knowledge of actually lobsters, because I was nowhere near that knowledge of lobsters. So you are well ahead when it comes to that. but I think what you've really beautifully described is actually redefining success. Like knowing what success means, it means different things to different people.

And, youwhen someone asked me the question, what's your success? I'm like, I don't have to go back to my first shitty job. Every time I wake up, I don't have to go back to that job. That's my success. so as part of the education, as part of setting someone on their lifelong success and journey, is there exercise that you do?

Like, how would you define success? 

I think redefining success or simply defining success for ourselves is critically [00:41:00] important because if we don't define it for ourselves, others society, capitalism, all the things will define it for us. And so one of my very favorite exercises that I should probably do more often for myself, and I sometimes do for my students, is to do just that, is to think about, okay, if success is not just about the outputs in this world, and it's also, for a second, just humor me, it's also about the inputs.

Diana Varma: What would success look like? So if you could think about success in terms of inputs, what words come to mind or how might you define success? So for example, for me, it is that curiosity piece. If I'm curious about something, if I'm excited, if I have that like guttural, ooh, this could go somewhere feeling, working on a project that does that for me, is absolutely success right out the gate.

Radim Malinic: Okay. I can see [00:42:00] that. it's very similar here, but about freedom of opportunity, like just being able to do whatever you like, I feel I'm so privileged that, success is that I've invented something that didn't exist in my world. Not necessarily out there because most of the things we do and make is recycle of the things that were here in the past, but it's like I can create my own version of tomorrow.

And that to me is already success today because tomorrow is going to be something different than today was. So that would be potentially my input. I wasn't prepared for this. 

Diana Varma: Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think that's great. Another thing that I really like to do, speaking about comparison, is I like to do an exercise that I call Creative Cousins.

And so it's looking out into the world, not, comparing apples to apples, or our work to someone else's work who maybe has been at it for, a million years, but it's to look for people who are really living creative lives that we appreciate and that we go, Oh, I would love to live that creative life 10, 20, 30 years [00:43:00] from now.

And figuring out who those people are and then trying to attach words to why we appreciate them, why we value their creative lives. So for example, this is one of mine, RuPaul Charles, love RuPaul's Drag Race. I think that he's a brilliant creative and a brilliant entrepreneur. And so what do I really like?

about his work. I love the fact that it is experimental. I love the fact that he's always trying new things and has his kind of hands in different places in the media industry. I appreciate that he is very direct in the way that he communicates, right? All of these different kinds of keywords. And then if you start to build this mind map of creative cousins, and you start to associate words with each of them, you'll find patterns.

You'll find ways in which creative people who you admire are living their lives authentically out in the world, and the words that you associate, you can start to [00:44:00] build into your own definition of success. So maybe again for me, I know that having done that exercise before, experimenting, curious, play, all of these critical things.

if I'm working on projects and I am engaged in life. in those ways, I feel successful, no matter, irrespective of the outcome. 

Radim Malinic: I like it. I think it's very clever. I think when you've quite eloquently described like creative cousins, it's less about that mythical, Checkpoint in your sort of potential success because you can feel that the world sometimes is a bit unfair Like how do I get that opportunity?

Like when is the opportunity gonna come path? Okay, so I'm sure that, RuPaul managed to create lots of their opportunities by being who they are, like actually trying to nourish and guide their path, because, It sometimes can feel like, Oh, is there someone's manager making this?

Or is there a management team? Is there someone making this happen? [00:45:00] But we are both true testaments of actually, there is a way to actually just follow your curiosity and build your building blocks on top of it, or just even forward, just build that path and follow it. Because It will unravel.

I think that's been a beautiful learning from this creative life that less you rely on other people to make something for you. And the more you make for yourself, all of a sudden realize, Oh shit, people are now asking me how I've done this. I was like, I just went forward and asked and knocked on the door.

So I think that's a really interesting way of looking at this, like creative cousins. is there anybody else apart from RuPaul that, is your, Creative cousin? 

Diana Varma: Oh, I'm sure there is. my kids are kind of my creative cousins because I see the way that they approach their work and the way that they just grab the scissors, grab the piece of paper and start cutting and see where the heck it lands.

And my five year old yesterday, she was calling for me at bedtime. She was supposed to be asleep, but naturally had a pair of [00:46:00] scissors in bed and paper and I'm like, what are you doing? And she's, making a snowflake but. Her snowflake didn't quite turn out the way she wanted it to, she opened it up and it turned into like this, almost like a Batman mask.

She's look, I made a mask for you. And so it was no, she didn't miss a beat. It wasn't like, oh, I failed. I didn't make a snowflake. No, no, no. I made a mask. this is cool. And so I think that type of willingness to just jump right in. and not know how to do something, but figure it out experientially is another bit of success or something that I would want to try and continue to emulate in my creative practice.

And I, see my kids doing that. 

Radim Malinic: There's a great sort of philosophy in jazz music that they say that every mistake is an opportunity because it's such a flowing, rhythm and obviously your flowing process that sometimes maybe we just reel to the hard stop just because we just didn't get to the right turning pretty quickly or, just start doubting ourselves.

And when you [00:47:00] flow in open, when you turn a snowflake in a, Batman's Mask, Every Mistake is an Opportunity, like this is how that could be easily unlocked. And sometimes, I think it's that sort of conflicting and unguarded thoughts that trip us up because I may have told you that on your show that I believe that there's no such thing as a creative block now.

Like creative block doesn't exist. There's just conflict in thoughts. Like we just overthink it because if you were to stop and filter, just couple of thoughts, look at your, mind map and okay, this is where I start, this is how I there. This is almost like your map. How'd you get from A to B and this is how it could work.

So yeah, I like that. You said that your kids are your creative cousins because My kids are the same age. And yeah, sometimes that sort of that, styling out of a, mistake is brilliant. Like you just do this, what did you mean to do that? Did you really mean to make that?

Absolutely. It's not something we can do in a branding proposal meeting or what did you do? That's what I meant to really do. But, speaking of mistakes, you mentioned that you were Sending out a romance and [00:48:00] kids books in your sales jobs. Did you ever get it wrong? Did you send a romance book to a kid or to a child publisher and a kid book to a hot romance customer?  

Diana Varma: don't think I ever did that. no. definitely didn't do that, but I. Yeah, no strange mix up. although one of my very favorite things to do, just jumping back there for a second was we had in house coatings.

So if you imagine the front of a book cover that has like a spot. UV gloss in one part of the cover coating. We did all of that in house. And so one of my very favorite things to do, I did not get to do it very often for the Harlequin Romance novels, but I got to do it often for the kids books, is actually do a glitter approval.

So I got to approve how much glitter was on the cover. And it was like the most enthralling thing that a client would call me and be like, all right, we need you to go do this glitter check. I'm on it. And yeah, no mix ups, but lots of fun and frivolity working with those two categories. [00:49:00] 

Radim Malinic: Wow, that's absolutely fantastic.

glitter check is not something that many people can say,what's the success of your life? I had a lot of glittery conversations about how much glitter is enough glitter for a book cover. 

Diana Varma: and they would pour it in and I'd, more glitter, pour it in more, we need more glitter.

It was, fun time. 

Radim Malinic: That's fantastic. Diana, I can truly thank you it was enlightening. it's inspirational. And I think what you're doing is remarkable. And I think your energy for, for your curiosity, your passion for the curiosity is something to cherish.

So thank you and yeah, I wish you all the best on your journey because I think your students are lucky to have you. 

Diana Varma: Thank you so much, Radham. It's been really, really fun. and I hope we can connect again soon. This has been great. 

Radim Malinic: Me too.   

Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes [00:50:00] or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malanich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode.