Pursuit of creative philosophy in music and filmmaking - Robert Summerfield

"Philosophy taught me not to avoid depths and darknesses, but to embrace melancholy. It was important to see how different people in history dealt with life's big questions." - Robert Summerfield

A deeply introspective conversation with Robert Summerfield, exploring his journey from a philosopher's son to a jazz student, songwriter, and documentary filmmaker. The episode reveals how his early exposure to philosophical thinking shaped his approach to music and storytelling, leading to a creative evolution that prioritizes serving others' stories over self-expression. 

Through his experiences in the music industry, writing for other artists, and eventually finding his calling in documentary filmmaking, Summerfield demonstrates how creative fulfillment can come from putting one's craft in service of amplifying other voices.

Key Takeaways

• Early philosophical influences can shape creative expression in unexpected ways
• The transition from self-expression to serving others' stories can lead to creative fulfillment
• Creative evolution often involves embracing different formats and mediums
• Technical knowledge (like jazz theory) can enhance creative freedom rather than constrain it
• Writing for others can be a valuable phase in artistic development
• The importance of maintaining both cerebral and intuitive approaches to creativity
• Documentary filmmaking can be a powerful tool for amplifying underrepresented voices
• Success can come from shifting focus from self-promotion to serving others
• Creative growth often involves periods of feeling like a beginner again
• Balance between structure (journalism) and creative freedom (music) can enhance both

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Transcript

Robert Summerfield: [00:00:00] So I really had this moment where I was like, okay, why don't you dive into, this mission of, making other voices audible and like putting your creative energy into, making other stories and especially just like voices. heard on different platforms. And, since I, made that my, mission, things just started happening, which I mean, I'm rooted in realism.

So I go into do the work and I rarely sit look out of the window and I'm like, is the universe telling me? but I can say that, since the moment where I. decided to,shift my perspective of what. messaging, am I going to put forth? things just started working out and, start getting more and more opportunities to tell other people's story. 

Radim Malinic: Welcome to [00:01:00] Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radek Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

Are you ready?

Radim Malinic: My guest today is a filmmaker, musician, and a storyteller. He studied documentary filmmaking at the [00:02:00] International Film School in Cologne, journalism at the University of Vienna, and jazz at the Conservatory of Vienna. His storytelling spans linear and digital television, radio, and film, earning him many awards and accolades.

His songwriting and music production under several monikers has counted millions of plays across streaming platforms. In our deeply introspective conversation, we explore his journey from a philosopher's son to a jazz student, songwriter, and documentary filmmaker. This episode reveals how his early exposure to philosophical thinking shaped his approach to music and storytelling, leading to a creative evolution that prioritizes serving others over self expression.

It's my pleasure to introduce Robert Summerfield.

Radim Malinic: Hey Rob, it's great to see you. How are you doing today? Great to be here. I'm doing very well, for sure. it's, one [00:03:00] of those sessions that I was so looking forward to do because I've been hounding you for this for months, if not a year. So I'm glad I pinned you down and I got you to talk about your wonderful work that you do in all sorts of different medias.

for those who have made or have heard of you, how would you introduce yourself? 

Robert Summerfield: I'd say I'm a filmmaker, musician, mixed media artist. I try to, combine different, formats, but I have a formal background in music and journalism and kind of, ping ponged in those spheres my whole life.

And right now, it's probably film first and, trying to, churn out music every year, but definitely I'd say it's the filmmaker's phase. 

Radim Malinic: beautiful concoction of, influences and interest and information. So let's rewind it back a bit. creativity, when did it come across your life? What was your first awareness of creativity?

Robert Summerfield: Probably growing up, my dad, was born in Chicago. So he brought the blues and music into my [00:04:00] house. he was also a philosopher,it was always about finding the music in things, not just music, but also finding the music in thought, meaning like some kind of poetic sensibility, 

So again, I think, as a kid, you dance around different things. And I think at the age of 11, I had my first vocal lesson with a mom of a friend of mine. She's an opera singer. And I was this, kid bouncing around everywhere. Now I had to stand next to a piano and, sing, but I loved it.

I did piano next to that, didn't love it as much, and kind of like, faded that out after a couple of years, but, I learned enough to get into playing and singing. I guess almost. Every musician in their teens have, this John Mayer phase where you're like, Oh my God, just singing and playing the guitar.

that's the shit. I want to do that. So I made it through school. wanted to study music, had my eyes on that. I wanted to do [00:05:00] something next to music also, but, early twenties didn't quite know yet so I started studying music in Vienna, did the conservatory, did jazz and, yeah, I think that was an important phase of finding out what the format is.

started with music and, ventured into other things, I'd say. 

Radim Malinic: I like that you mentioned John Mayer face.

Robert Summerfield: it's kind of like, you want to say songwriting was born out of my own, personal moments, but I know so many people who, if you talk to them for a couple of hours, they're like, yeah. And then I heard Mayer play like Gravity or Daughters and I knew, Oh God, I want to write music.

So yeah, that was that. 

Radim Malinic: that's an interesting influence. I think what you really mentioned with your dad being a philosopher, that's a really hidden nugget. Cause I've known you for a while. I don't know everything about you, but I'm liking when I can put together and when I can join the dots a little bit.

And I think the way you write music, the way you write lyrics, they are not daughters of [00:06:00] gravity, there's good lyrics in gravity. Let's be honest. I think John Mayer wishes that. Daughters wasn't exactly, he said, that's the track 11. That's not a Grammy winning song for him, but let's talk about your dad's influence and philosophy because you've gone through this phase, obviously, like you're wanting to be, John Mayer phase.

And then you study in conservatory Vienna, you study in jazz. So we get a little bit serious, a little bit more technical, but with that kid bouncing around and not necessarily wanting to stand by the piano, like. What was your dad's influence on actually having the music be more explained or having a bit more sort of weight behind it in terms of actual philosophy and meaning?

Robert Summerfield: think the philosophy part probably really came into view for me when I started writing music, right? When you have this, of emotions in your teens and you're like, I don't know where, this is coming from. And then your dad I don't know. Shoves over books on existentialism and you're like, okay, I don't really the completeness of this, but certain fragments make a lot of sense.

especially maybe not [00:07:00] avoiding, depths and darknesses and, embracing melancholy. I think, that was, really important to see, how different people in the history of thought deal with, issues deal with, big question marks in life. So I yeah, I he gave me a book.

I screened it, found something,Bertrand Russell on, developing thought, or, my dad was really big into logic. and then you're like, ah, okay, love isn't logical, but, maybe there's a way to write a song about, trying to find logic and love. Possibly. And then you kind of, get it together, philosophy and music.

I think, it's very subconscious, but I think what it did essence is,light this fire of writing something that has some depth, I think, and that kind of tackles, more complex emotions. 

Radim Malinic: Do you remember how you felt when you wrote the first lyrics, when you wrote the first chord progression, when you kind of like, Oh, this is me?

you all have these sort of [00:08:00] starts when we go, maybe this is not good enough. But when the music makes you feel something, when you feel like it's coming together, do you remember that feeling? 

Robert Summerfield: For me, it was actually tied to my first concert. I haven't thought about this for probably 25 years now.

it was this final concert where I was organizing basically this, school band for like graduation or something. And, part of it, it was like a repertoire of known music, but then also some originals. They were like, if you have some music and just play it. And, I remember being like, okay, if you write this now, at least your school's going to hear this, including probably like your secret crush.

Everybody will know it's about her, possibly. So you probably have to hide what you mean, which is interesting because. It seems like if you start off artistically, you try to hide behind things. And, that's also a theme that, continued on across music and [00:09:00] film for me. 

really understanding what, what you're doing here. If you're like, creating a smoke screen and, it's, just happens so quickly that you create this smoke screen out of,Metaphorical imagery, possibly in music or a smokescreen of complexity also, that's something with starting off writing music.

You're like, okay, I want to create these harmonies. got to go Joni Mitchell on this, and, it needs a lot of, callous to be like, okay, no, I'm going to make this really simple.yeah. Yeah, remember to come back. I remember there was this concert.

They were like, if you have original music, you can play it. I was like, Oh God, yes. The first possibility. So now I got to write some music. And that's, I think that was the drive of being like, I'm not just writing this for my, lonely bedroom, but for an audience. And that's, how I started.

Radim Malinic: That's interesting. how old are you? Because this is interesting because I thought you would already, like the way you started explaining the answer, I thought you already had some music written, but now we had an opportunity to actually [00:10:00] perform some of your music and you're like, I'm going to make it happen.

That is bravery. How old were you? 

Robert Summerfield: the whole process started, I think when I was like 16 or something. And before that, just dabbling, singing And I think getting the, info that I could create this curated concert, at 16, or it was like one and a half years later. And I was like, okay.

I have this thing. So I better, piece together my scraps of music and lyrics. Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: That's incredible. How did it go? did everyone find out it was about your crash? 

Robert Summerfield: I don't know. it's a tunnel, I can tell you how it ended.

It ended with, rage against the machine, playing that,f you, won't do what you tell me. That was like our end theme, so it ended on a high note, which is good. that's the only thing that, I have a memory really, to be honest about that evening, it's 

Radim Malinic: That's absolutely hilarious. so you've gone on from all of this experience, you've decided to go on to study in Vienna and study in conservatory, what was that world like? Then you actually, you can't keep it loose. with jazz, you can keep it loose, but you need to know your basics [00:11:00] before you can start being loose.

What did that feel like? 

Robert Summerfield: It was daunting because, coming from, songwriting, I wanted to study jazz to be able to write more colorful music, I'd say, expand my palette. And, I already had that, I think lyrically, like I knew I didn't want to write,middle shelf, top shelf kind of lyrics.

I wanted to go and dig a little bit, but I really didn't have arsenal of. possibilities and tools. So I auditioned in Vienna. It was this really typical, standing in front of strangers and putting your, soul out there kind of moment, that worked out. And, it washard because, the reality is most kids have the feeling that go to music school are already like halfway through music school before getting there, right?

You have your pianists and guitar players who, hear everything, nearly everything. And with, hearing, they can tell you exactly what type of chord plus extensions, meaning added notes, are [00:12:00] played. And, You're just thrown into that mix. And then you're, sitting there and you have to actually learn, to hear and, identify music for the first time.

 yeah, it was a storm because you basically, learn that you know so little, which can be, as a grown up person, you're like, that's awesome. That's a good feeling. I want that in my life. I never want the learning to stop. But when you're like a young person, you're like, no, I want to show what I know.

and so that was rough sitting there and being like, yeah, I don't hear this chord. what are you talking about? It's dark. Yeah, this chord is dark. don't know. It's a minor sharp, whatever. 

Radim Malinic: did that play on your confidence? as you just described, like when we get older, we enjoy not knowing much.

We enjoy that opportunity to realize, and you know what? No one knows everything, I've got a chance to explore it. Whereas when you're at that tender age of 20 plus, not even that, you're like, Oh my God. there's better people. And when you talk about people who can hear a chord and with the extensions, whenever I watch Rick Beato on YouTube and it's yeah, that's a C7 sharp [00:13:00] plus sus four nine.

And you're like, what? and what is really interesting from my experience being in death metal band and grunge bands, like we didn't really think there was an extension. You just move your fingers on the fretboard. You're like. Yeah, this is a standard quote, and I'm just going to move my fingers.

So it sounds weird. like we didn't think that this was it. again, when he described it, some of the older music Oh yeah, this is a harmonic. I don't think that Jerry Cantrell and Layne Staley were really thinking about it. Do we do an SS7 or plus nine or whatever? I think it was just a feeling.

And I think the feeling of creativity and music. Is the most rewarding thing, most rewarding outcome. Because that was the reason why I asked you, do you remember when you wrote your first lyrics and stuff? Because being in a band, I always said, it's I'm trying to work with clients. Like you're in a band with lots of people and you need to agree on something.

You're like, Oh, but when it comes together, you're like, it's the best feeling in the world. So you were thrown in a deep end. you threw yourself in a jazz deep end. what about the studies? what did that go for? 

Robert Summerfield: you have your, mixture of courses, right? You have your [00:14:00] instrumental course, which in my, case was voice.

You have your secondary instrument, like piano, and then you have these speciality courses,yeah, advanced, Reading, listening, like the training of the ear, basically. That was daunting. And,I knew the purpose of why I was there, which was I just wanna write better songs. So I didn't go in like, I want to be the next best jazz musician in the world because whatever is, there's no such thing, 

So I always got back to that, North that I was pursuing.but, and that kind of sparked also a new phase of writing music possibly as a way of combating the, uselessness that I felt, in some courses being like, yeah, okay, I can't, I'm just sitting here.

I'm just, soaking in. And at that point soaking in, I didn't experience that as. a gift, but more as Oh my God, what am I even doing here? So I wrote a lot of music actually in that phase, which was pretty good. I think, experimented a [00:15:00] lot.but it's fun. I don't know how it is nowadays, but I can't imagine.

Maybe similar, like music on that level, especially jazz, there are different schools, like in everything, art, also film, there are your people, your progressives, there are people who are more, traditionalists, there are people in the middle. And while I was there, it was very traditional school looking way back.

And to be honest, there was some people with opinion that like good music stopped. in the early seventies or something was like teachers being like, yeah, nothing of use has been created past 1972 or whatever.that was comical and funny also. And with the distance, funny to see. and also the sport aspect, Being like, Playing fast is good. Yeah, let's play this music at 200 something BPM, Joy Spring and see what Coltrane did. If we can do it, like competition especially open [00:16:00] sessions, right? You go to open sessions and everybody's Oh my God, who's that? yeah, as a vocalist, you're out of the mix anyway, because as soon as you step on stage, everybody's Oh God, okay, we got to play slow.

We got to play vocal music. This isn't soloing scales for 20 minutes. So it was funny, seeing the different, approaches to music and art. Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: there's definitely. snobbery in every discipline. And I think I've come across a lot of people who felt that, no good music was recorded past 1950s or whatever, and it's easy to buy into the mindset.

And I used to grind this opinion on this podcast with my guests who are usually similar age to mine that, okay, the nineties was the best decade in the world.every teenager will tell their teenage years was the best decade in the world, So I think. Is that open mindedness?

Because yes, you can close yourself off to outside influences and believe that what you know, and what you do and how you do it [00:17:00] is the best way to do it. And I you can, freeze yourself in that time and okay, if that's someone's choice, that's how they do it. And you can see it in design, you can see it in filmmaking or people, but when you're curious about what's outside, like how do you connect to people that, We all keep moving forward.

you can preserve something, but everything else is, and everyone else is moving forward. It's like, how do you want to talk to people who are slightly behind on your journey, who will catch up with you? And how'd you do it? You mentioned you got into journalism. where did that come from?

So obviously you mentioned that you were jazz because you want to write more colorful music. And again, that speaks about that philosophy side. And I love that you said colorful music. That's a beautiful term. Journalism. How did that happen? 

Robert Summerfield: I think surface level of choice, it was the do something safe ish to balance out the wild card, which is studying music and, trying to make art, turn art into a viable,means of existence.

So that [00:18:00] was the surface level decision. I think going deeper. It was the, foreshadowing something that happened later on in my life, maybe likefive to eight years later, which is, I felt that journalism was an outlet to tell stories in a very multidimensional way, felt that next to the format of music and songwriting, At that time, I thought very, clear, blueprints, meaning, okay, you have a song length of, three to four minutes if you write lyrics and beyond that, what is there?

And you have your choruses, whatever song structure. I just saw journalism as a way of, looking at culture from a meta perspective and also looking at myself in this music culture from a meta perspective. And that's, I think why these struggles of music school never touched me as deeply because then I just switched to journalism and I was like, okay, think I'm [00:19:00] going to write a thesis on some music related issue that I'm going through that. Many people are going through, or the whole culture is going through like,transition and technology in culture was something, when I studied music was a big thing, like things like Spotify were, emerging and nobody understood it, not musicians, not people in the industry.and you were stuck in this. Yeah. Black Box. and then I just switched over to journalism. I was like, okay, let's look at this. Let's see. Are there any comparisons that I can make? Walter Benjamin, development of cultural technologies.

Oh, bingo. That feels good. And in essence, it's yeah, pursuing something, intellectual, but it's also just going into the direction that feels good. It just feels good. to emancipate yourself from something. and I think I did that through journalism, new perspective. 

Radim Malinic: I absolutely love that idea that, I've got into journalism because that's a [00:20:00] safer choice.

and I've had guests and friends on this podcast who were on a mission to do one thing. Then they were convinced by others not to go into that choice and only to grow into that thing later on in their life. And journalism doesn't seem to me, personally, like the safer choice, because obviously you wouldn't think that when you've got those pushy parents,you're going to be either doctor, accountant or journalist, doesn't come from the stereotypical idea of what's the safe choice.

But what I'm loving here is your. sort of skill set and the armory of, ideas that sort of driving this eternal curiosity. Okay. I want to write more colorful music. I want to do this. I want to actually get to get into more storytelling. This is great because obviously what you do now, and I won't let you jump there yet, but obviously you work on documentaries and this is like, how do you create a myriad of storytelling, the curiosity, like how do you decipher the stuff?

But before we get into story, before we into your documentary making, obviously you're a journalist. you [00:21:00] start putting out music as would Ashes be the first thing you've ever put out or 

Robert Summerfield: no, I, did a lot of,different music. I mean,it was always like soul based music. I guess like derivatives jazz in a sense, no, I did, soulful songwriting music, I'd say I did journalism.

I did video, especially I did video journalism, with the now defunct company Vice in my early twenties, it was kind of like,video journalism paid for my music habit. a little bit. So I had to, produce my first demo EP to give to labels and whatnot, didn't have the money.

So figured, yeah, I obviously got to work for it. So I worked in video journalism to make money for the demo, did that. it worked well, you know,if you're, in editing, you need rhythm music is what I say with I think finding music. And everything is a task that's always relevant.

And, so yeah, no, I wrote, say like jazz related soul music, while studying jazz. and yeah, then [00:22:00] things kind of like, took off. like I said, it was an interesting time. I think it was around 2013 plus minus. It was this time where labels, major labels were still very much, was part of the lingo looking for radio singles.

That was the thing people said, like Rs, Literally said, yeah, I love the music, but do you think you're capable of, hitting that radio single? Because Spotify playlisting, it just wasn't a thing yet at all. I think the music industry around 2012, 13, I'm bad with dates, but I think it was still reeling from, Music Piracy.

So they were happy to get into bed with a legit service like Spotify, but they were still radio, yeah, it was interesting, being in music school and stepping into the industry and discovering that. 

Radim Malinic: I like that you said that were subsidizing your music from not having a job.

I used to subsidize my non existing early design career with DJ gigs. So I would [00:23:00] literally like to work for free for people and I do my development and then go and play a DJ gig to very ungrateful people, playing them lots of dance floor jazz and like broken beat and I'm like, what is this?

I'm like, I'm just counting minutes. I just want to get paid and go home and do what I really want to do. What you've mentioned with the singles, it takes us back to John Mayer. And maybe that John Mayer might be a running theme on this conversation because one of my things on the internet is this clinic for Berkeley college of music, right? From 2004, I think I watched, about 20 times. And I always find something interesting in there. And in one of the elements, he says, define your expectations.

What do you want to be? Do you want to be on the radio? Because if you want to be on the radio, you've got three minutes to get everything out. Now you have to do that, that, that, that, that, that, that, and. I watched it, let's say within the 15 years of my sort of creative career. And I'm like, Oh, wait a minute.

I never defined my expectations. I never thought of it that way. I was morphing myself as a creator, not as a commercial creative into these spaces [00:24:00] that needed me or wanted me. But as a musician, you all of a sudden realize, okay. If I want to be, part of, or whichever the machine I'm choosing, it comes with real limitations, which as a free flowing philosophical jazz influence artist, you might be thinking, oh, this is a bit unfair, but then you realize actually there's freedom in limitations.

Actually, I can really find every single edge and corner in the wall within this space. So when you were talking about radio singles, did you ever attempt to write one? 

Robert Summerfield: Oh yeah. also out of that clinic, I think there's a statement. he said something like. Us studying music, like we all here, you, me, back in the day, we're working at not having to finish the school kind of, his perspective, was, if you manage to break into the industry while you're still studying, you actually, that was the goal of your studies.

I'm into learning. So I think there's great value in [00:25:00] finishing things, finishing studies, but it was a romantic rebel kind of thought being like, yeah, wouldn't it be cool to study music and then get a, deal while you're studying music for your own music? And so that was a goal.

And that's what I pursued and did. And then, yeah, I was lucky. I met this, A& R who, like he was built the German mainstream, if you can call something like that, actually. he was like a founding guy in German reggae, who discovered like the biggest bands in that.

I didn't do any reggae, but he had a sensibility for warmth and soul. So he signed me with a big company, one of these big companies that look for radio singles. And,it was free flowing. It was like, Hey, you do your thing because that's why I'm interested. But,release one or two EPs, but then for the album, we need, those radio singles just, to get some exposure.

yeah, I was, definitely briefed to do that, to create that sort of thing, which is absurd. Depends how you see it, but at that point as like a music rebel, trying not to have to finish music studies because you're selling your own music, yeah. I [00:26:00] found it weird to have to cater to a format.

Radim Malinic: That's interesting. I think there's quite a few famous songs about the fact that artists get asked to write a love song, a pop song, a radio single. I think of Sara Bareilles or even Korn. I think it says you all want a single, which ironically became a single. And obviously Sara Bareilles love song is a very famous song about, knowledge to write a head song.

But, I want to talk about the anatomy of songwriting a little bit more because you talk about expression. some people obviously welcome, I'm sure Chris Martin is very happy to be writing his sing along songs with, stadium and a full of people in mind. And this must be quite hard to keep up atop of everyone's mind with their sort of no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Cause, some bands come and go, some bands come with good stuff and they realize, I don't want to do this again. I don't want to write another single. I don't want to write another pop song. Your take on feelings and situation and mixed [00:27:00] with beautiful cocktail of philosophy and, jazz, when you get to find yourself, could be assigned to a big company and they say, can you write us a radio single?

Is it easy? is it counterintuitive? is it the opposite of what you wanted? Because you were never a guy who were going to write a radio single, were you? 

Robert Summerfield: Yeah, exactly. No, I think. It depends on the person, right? Some people are just incredible in writing radio singles. Some people are really bad in writing radio singles for themselves, but really good in writing for other people.

And I think, that's just like a discovery phase that you have to go through. Me personally, I sucked terribly at writing radio singles for myself. I never wrote a radio single with a goal of writing that. And then it made its way into the radio. It just happened. But I wrote this song before, but that's also, I think part of my way out of the music industry is that for some years, I just siphoned into, writing music for other people.

I was signed as an artist to this big company, but [00:28:00] also as an author to the publishing house connected to the label. And, yeah, I enjoyed not having to write. for myself. and I think that was retrospectively a very important phase in my creative development because on the one hand back in the day, if I think about it, it had a feeling of, am I giving up here?

am I giving up on writing big for myself to make it happen for myself? Am I like,demoting myself to, the backroom songwriter, which is awesome. Like That job is incredible. but like those questions, what's happening here? And I think for the first time in my life, I assumed this mindset of putting my craft to service, right?

And that not only opened doors, like I was able to write for really big artists in Germany, travel to places like Scandinavia, work with. People that I've never met before and two, three days in [00:29:00] studios, beautiful studios. but I kind of like assumed this mindset of putting myself and my own ego driven path to self expression.

yeah, putting that to the, passenger seat and being like, what can I do to service the, voice and the message of this person, whatever that is. and. whatever the outcome was, didn't really matter if the artist was just a pop artist or hip hop soul.

I think it just shifted my mindset to the value of, owning your craft and, putting this toolbox to service that you built over these many years, 

Radim Malinic: it seems quite selfless. And it don't sound conflicted because some people want to be that artist on the stage.

Some people want to write their own songs. So they've got all the royalties so they can buy the big house and be that big rock star. But when you describe it, I'm thinking of a sort of this hint of hesitance of I don't want to write a big song for myself, but I'm really [00:30:00] happy to write it for other people, which other people would be like, I want to have the big songs.

you write it or I write it, but as long as I've got a big song, that's what matters. It doesn't sound conflicted about this. I think you sound very interesting because you think of people like Max Martin, they talk about like the numbers game, like the, how many syllables and how to break down and kind of stuff like that, I believe that, music, just like everything else is, is mathematically possible to create how to appeal to us, how we are hardwired, just like you can do with other stuff. But your feeling about this, was it not a development stage? Was it the right things for you? Because again, To write for other people, that's a lot of confidence.

Am I right? 

Robert Summerfield: I think was more playfulness. It needed confidence, but I think I got the confidence through, just being put into the situation. I think it also had to do with the fact that in that phase of my life, I was also realizing that I'm going to switch formats and when I do, it was a transitional phase where I was like, okay, I have the [00:31:00] feeling that this music thing is something that I'm going to do my whole life as an artist.

I am like, I have that commitment to myself, but I had the feeling that,I was getting back into film heavily. I was getting more and more interested into that again. So there wasn't as much weight, lifted upon these situations, being in these rooms with, music artists or labels, because I was like, if this works out, it's fine.

And it's fun. But, I, I have my eyes set on, a different path, that I'm going to transition into or pivot into, or let's say rekindle, maybe. I'm talking about like my mid to late twenties here, right? yeah, there was less pressure because I knew I'm steering somewhere else slowly, maturely.

Radim Malinic: How did you start writing for other people? Because the reason I ask you about confidence is that. You come in there with blank, like you're in a studio and unless I don't know the ins and outs of the sessions, but to come up with something on the spot, you're not gonna wake up at three o'clock in the morning and say, I've got this idea for this artist now, [00:32:00] because you're there, you have to deliver, right?

You have to deliver and you have to be there. So your study of jazz music and sort of the experiences of writing for yourself. How did that feel? Did it feel like being exposed or is, are those sessions quite fruitful that you find that, answer fairly easy? What does that feel like? 

Robert Summerfield: I think it all has to do with, the vibe of a room, right?

with trust.

Trust your instincts. with writing music in these settings, it was all just about playfulness and, fooling around, having fun with, words, with sound, not trying to go for the,Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah, but being like, let's do something very simple, easy without, like an iceberg of meaning under it.

but let's just be guided by intuition because oftentimes it's right. whatever thought you have through whatever medium, even though it feels intuitive to you and kind of like, okay, that was the first thing on the top [00:33:00] of my mind. I think what, we don't think about is the, cosmos of thought and experience that's built beneath this intuitive little thought, right?

to arrive at this one thought, which seems meager, had to go through, phases of experience and melancholy or highs and lows, and I think even simple thoughts like lyrics or, film ideas just, instincts are built on a lot more depth than we think, but it's, kind of like stored beneath.

so I think at some point I was like, yeah, this is just child's play what we're doing here in terms of simple rhymes, whatever. But I don't know, 15 years of writing songs led me to this point of doing this in a very childlike fashion. it's not built on nothing here, what's happening.

Radim Malinic: Okay. I think the most important thing you said is the 15 years. is that like having the wealth of knowledge of how you can do this? [00:34:00] Because it sounded like you cleared the level that it was like, we can do this because you and I got to know each other because of Spotify. Your music being on Spotify, I found one of your songs in Discover Weekly, because I've, I've got three different accounts on Spotify.

One of them got hijacked by my, wife and my kids. So that's gone out of, cause I've, I've very much enjoyed having the algorithm that finds you more of what you like. I think we always say algorithm does this and that, it shows me the same shit on, on. Instagram. But I love that I trained the algorithm to show me really good music.

And you showed up in one of your songs. And it was one of the 30. I used to send,songs, links to one of my sisters and I carried on with my life. And she replied to me the next day, Hey, I've been listening to Ashes. All day long. And I'm like, let's have a look. Let's have a look. And I listened to your stuff and I'm like, Oh my God, I found the depth and the layers and everything that you've been describing here.

I was like, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to tell him his music is amazing. And that's how we became friends because of the [00:35:00] technology that we have, which You know, your critical thinking about emerging trends for, for musicians like Spotify,the world is changing, the world is moving, there's a lot of discomfort about how rich Daniel Egg is right now, but he's created a tool, he's created a media company, just because, I have to see it from this sort of slightly harsher perspective, just because you've published.

a song, somewhere in Alabama, you live in your parents house and you publish five songs Spotify. That doesn't mean that you need to get 20 per, per one play. like I think we can choose to be on the internet and we can choose to do things that, work to our advantage.

So I think for Spotify, spot and identify, I think makes sense because. It's like a public service in a way. it doesn't pay well, but it gets people found. I think that's, I think was one of the best things that, you know, for our friendship that we got to meet and we got to chat and we done some work together.

Discovered your first EP, which is Sierra, right? Sierra. [00:36:00] And Laguna Limited is one of the standout songs that still blows my mind. It still blows my mind in many different ways. the whole EP is incredible and I think you still should be proud of it, just like everything that you put out. But you mentioned that Laguna was written for your dad.

Is that right? 

Robert Summerfield: Yeah. it was written after my dad passed away. and it was actually written place of solace, yeah, the message of the song is this, the creation of spaces. where good things prevail, I'd say.

And, yeah, that kind of abstract thought the song was written. 

Radim Malinic: I absolutely adore your lyrics because we got to work together on the visuals for your second EP and it was Technicolor Love. That was the first single. And I've read your lyrics then, and I've read them recently, and I'm like, how did he write this?

Because it's abstract, it's got meaning, it's a modern poetry. I just absolutely adored the way you write lyrics. [00:37:00] But, what is your process? Do you write things as you see them? is it a reflection to part of your sort of journalistic view on seeing people's stories?

Or is it sort of way you're project, like how do you write lyrics and how do you see, what was the projection? 

Robert Summerfield: that song was, about. Finding meaning in normalcy. I think it was about these very normal, moments that kind of, if you're in the grind of life, just wash by, which is something I think, that I have to make myself,realize constantly.

what that song was about was writing, finding beauty like in a supermarket. basically. And, I write songs with music, also the same way I do film, which is, I have some, harmony or some melody. Usually it's harmony. It's, coming from jazz, if you align harmony in a way that you like, the melody is [00:38:00] also evolves out of that.

especially if you don't, if you go beyond, let's say, your standard four chord songs, you throw in certain, functions, then, You limit yourself of, what melodies can be limit yourself. You kind of like guide your ear towards where melody can go, I'd say.so I just sit down and, associate freely, write the music, vocalize.

And then with the melodic movement, lyrics just happen. 

Radim Malinic: So do you do that thing when you've got your melody and then you just do abstract words, you put notes into, the chord structure and then you've put more color in it. Is that how you do it?

Robert Summerfield: Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: And I 

Robert Summerfield: mean, syllables depends, at some point, obviously the lyrics and the melodies. They dance, and then first it's the melody and the melody dictates and it's okay We only need four words here or only need but you know feels right Place four words here and then at some point you're like, okay, but in these four words I can't [00:39:00] express what this color can express so it has to be this sentence or this verse and then the melody is adjusted obviously to the words 

Radim Malinic: me about artistic expectations because there's a lot of new albums come out very often from very famous artists, people like, yeah, I wasn't expecting this.

I don't like this. This is not what I wanted. I'm like, what did you mean? What did you want it? I think that sort of whole thing, like, Oh, what, why? Because we evolve as humans, as creatives, we evolve in our way, how we think. In your personal evolution as, sort of recording artist under the name of Ashes, I call it full grow album, a full length album.

Was a departure from that mellow jazzy downtempo. when I heard it, when you shared the demos with me, I was like, this feels right. I wanted more of the downbeat, mellow, because that's a selfish perspective. Like I want the music that's really, suitable for some of the moods of my life.

But what you produced, it changed the perspective of what I expect your music to [00:40:00] be. And it's peppered with the most amazing vocals, lyrics, hooks. And I was just like, Oh my word, this is, in my opinion, this was your radio singles. But how do you feel that perception of and expectations of public and your listeners to what you produce or generally like how music's produced?

And is there a weight behind it? 

Robert Summerfield: I produced and wrote this last album, or, already in this phase of, I'm going back to journalism, getting really into documentary film. So I was kind of like, okay, why not write music? and produce music that can serve as a backdrop to, visual things that I'm creating.

And I wanted to, yeah, create music that has a spectrum of,Like these steepness but also up tempo energy, thinking like a, putting music into a film, basically. it's hard to create an interesting film that, runs from one upbeat moment to the next, and they're just competing.

You need, different pockets of lows,to [00:41:00] create these ramps of, elevated feeling. so I approached this album with film in mind being like, why not create something? I don't know yet if I'll need it, but why not create an album where, I'm certain that possibly with future films that I do, I don't have to look for music or let a composer compose music, but I can be like, okay, I produced this album.

I have all the stems here. I can, mute my vocals. I can put my vocals in. and actually that worked out not just for me, like I did that, in films, but also. Colleagues of mine, filmmakers, they approached me, they were like, Hey, this one song, could I use it? Can it be like the credit roll song of my film?

And I was like, of course, that's what it was intended for, I think, I it worked out. 

Radim Malinic: It's a fantastic way of seeing things because I think when you've got that in mind and a bigger output and bigger outcome and like what it can be, I think that's what makes work last so much longer.

I can put my hand up asking you for theme tune. one of your tracks was a theme tune for the previous season. [00:42:00] And yeah, I can't wait to use some of more of your music, for everything that we do next in the future, but we've been flying, hovering over your documentary,work, You given us a really nice segue of, okay, I'm thinking how I can put this into practice and into action. So documentaries,we've been talking about storytelling this kind of brings us onto that kind of conclusion of what you're creating now.

So what type of documentaries do you do now and how did you get into it? And what was the sort of inkling behind it? 

Robert Summerfield: that's an excellent question. What type of documentaries, it's obviously all centered around, societal topics and people dealing with, issues and realities that have some kind of universal, yeah, I'd say, connect.

I'm definitely not a niche filmmaker I don't concentrate on nature films. I don't concentrate on, work related films. I do love cultural, like crossing cultural borders. I love,introducing perspectives into my world that I've [00:43:00] never perceived. But it's a general statement.

I guess that's why you do documentary film.this feeling of, putting myself to service. I think that's at the core of why I started documentary film and also. I've been a vocalist all my life. So in essence, what I've been doing is, turning up the volume on my own voice and trying to beat the white noise of media by means of song and, vocals.

So I really had this moment where I was like, okay, why don't you dive into, this mission of, making other voices audible and like putting your creative energy into, making other stories and especially just like voices. heard on different platforms. And, since I, made that my, mission, things just started happening, which I mean, I'm rooted in realism.

So I go into do the work and I rarely sit look out of the window and I'm like, is the universe telling me? but I can say that, since the moment where I. decided to,shift my perspective of what. messaging, am I going to [00:44:00] put forth? things just started working out and, start getting more and more opportunities to tell other people's story.

Radim Malinic: You've used this word a few times throughout the conversation as the word service. So when you were writing for other people, you use it as a service. You're talking about how can you be of service to others and how we can amplify their voices. And it's that beautiful way of when we let go, offer our skillset, As you said, things started to change, things started to happen.

what was the feeling like when you were starting giving opportunities to other voices? What was your first array into world of documentary? And yeah, what was that like?

Because all of a sudden you're working with, A lot more audio visual content and obviously a lot more moving parts and a lot more sort of identities and egos in the play. So how does that work from being in the studio and having, almost like a child's play, having fun with silly songwriting in a way, and then going actually and talking about more of a societal issues and more stories.

it got very cerebral. 

Robert Summerfield: I didn't [00:45:00] start by doing, I know portraits about, things that just happened in front of my door. I got involved, with a type of foundation, like a humanitarian foundation where I basically developed,a little doc series about, people, around the world who are tackling challenges in global health.

So I was entrusted in finding people and kind of like, change makers in the field of global health who have different projects, that basically,elevate their communities. and That project was filmed between Kenya, Rwanda and Germany with different projects that have, also this cross border approach, meaning there's collaboration between, for example, Germany or the States and Kenya and Rwanda.

And, I was just mind blown by, the energy, by the capability. of people worldwide to make things happen in a [00:46:00] space that has a lot more moving parts than me writing a song and pitching it to a label. I thought that was hard. And then I realized, Oh, wow, there's a whole new level of complexity to creating an NGO to deal with.

a topic, fundraising, doing advocacy and politics. yeah, I was, just astounded by the, capability of these people. And, so I was thrown into this, kind of complex field of global health. and,I filmed in these countries with different people and, it became a learner again, I'd say it was back to this drawing board.

that I experienced starting to study art, I was again, in the position of, knowing more about complex processes after finishing each film project, which was really, really awesome. All of a sudden, these kind of like,articles journals or news articles about malaria, started making a lot of sense to me.

And I realized, oh, okay, [00:47:00] this is something that activates things in my brain that haven't been activated while I was in this, bubble that I was in for a lot of years. yeah. Yeah, very stimulating, 

Radim Malinic: It sounds like,interesting chapter that got unlocked, through service. And I think that's, one of the most fascinating things that in early sort of careers, especially when you were writing the music as a 15 year old, 16 year old, to say, okay, I'm going to write my first song and perform it in front of this school before we bang out, there'll be a killing in the name.

we change. And I think this is the beautiful way of being eternally curious, like how we can form into these things that open ourselves. Because you mentioned, in your early twenties, you didn't know exactly what artist you wanted to be, what you wanted to do. That could be seen from people who think, let's do something sensible like journalism.

that could be seen like, come on. You need to know what you want to do. Whereas The older we get, the more we realize that actually I can be anyone tomorrow. I can literally take every. piece of wisdom, skill set, understanding of how things work. And I can change and actually [00:48:00] create a whole new career because we don't have to be chained to these things.

So would you say this sort of new, it's not necessarily new, but would you say this different view of the world has now influenced the way you write songs or think about music or songwriting? Because I know that you bubble in a few things in the background, but obviously they're not as, prevalent in your life as they used to be once upon a time.

But Is that an inkling to write more societal influenced lyrics or is it easier to actually just go and escape for a bit and write things that are closer to the soul? 

Robert Summerfield: No, I think I don't have the agency of now transporting what I'm doing with, doc work into music.

I love exploring. artists. Like for example, I did one jazz album about the repertoire of Joni Mitchell. So I, think, I'm really interested in, exploring, yeah, different repertoires, seeing how they fit into, traditions, into, societal phases and happenings. and movements. [00:49:00] And I think that's the way, I do approach music, but now music still is very much a, I try to keep it intuitive.

I, try to, really, act out the cerebral part of my craft in documentary film where, yeah, you obviously have to. And I try to use music as, an intuitive harbor. and that works quite well because, some people can roll on cerebral thought, all day, every day.

But me personally, I need these pockets of, and activating different parts of my brain.and it's also a when I do film, there's an, there's different agency to it. I think don't have that agency in music. when I do doc film, I really have the agency of,shining some light on, under represented or, stories that are neglected by, mainstream views and whatnot.

and in music it's not about, creating this kind of shedding light on something. I think it's, actually just about doing it. Music for me is a lot more just [00:50:00] about, being in the moment and, not where the music is going to land eventually. 

Radim Malinic: I think, A beautiful word says it's intuitive.

The music is intuitive and it's pockets of different things. Because through many conversations on these podcasts, and you speak to some celebrated figures and they're like, yeah, I only create for two hours a day, or I only do this for a while, or I need to be in a young of the balance because When you're 15 years old, before you even have the John Mayer face, you're thinking, I'm going to be creative every day. I'm going to be in studio every day. I'm going to do that every day. And you realize that is impossible. No one's good at endless well, and even Max Martin is surrounded by about 19 people helping him to do this stuff because not everyone's good at gold every day because we're not always aligned with this.

So I like to use the word intuitive because I think that's pretty much what got you to where you are today. So Rob. enjoyed learning more about you, more about your process. I'm excited about what you do next. And yeah, thank you for making what you've made already and what you're going to make in the future because it's a, music close to my [00:51:00] heart and I cherish the fact that we can be, as a result of it, friends.

So thank you. Likewise. Thank you so much for the invitation.

 Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malanich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode. [00:52:00]