The art and science of custom-made typefaces for global brands - Eleni Beveratou

"I try to focus less on the new and more about what's unique for you as a brand - dig into their story, where they came from." - Eleni Beveratou

Dalton Maag creative director shares her journey from discovering graphic design through a Girl Scout poster to becoming a leading voice in typography. The conversation explores the evolution of brand typography, the importance of accessibility in type design, and the process of creating custom typefaces for global brands. 

Eleni Beveratou discusses how her multicultural background influences her work and provides insights into the delicate balance between innovation and functionality in type design. She reveals how her initial dislike of typography during her studies transformed into a deep passion through understanding its impact on accessibility and user experience. 

Her approach emphasizes looking beyond trends to create enduring typefaces that authentically represent brands while meeting their practical needs across different platforms and writing systems.

Key Takeaways:

• Typography is not just about aesthetics - it's about functionality, accessibility, and brand identity
• The best typeface designs often come from understanding a brand's history and unique story rather than chasing trends
• Creating custom typefaces requires extensive research and collaboration with different teams within an organization
• The type design community has evolved to become more approachable and less intimidating
• Successful type design balances precision with creative expression
• Initial resistance to new typefaces often indicates successful challenging of the status quo
• International brands increasingly need custom typefaces to maintain consistency across different writing systems and platforms

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Transcript

Eleni Berevatou: [00:00:00] You might think you're creating something new and fresh and six months in you find out that, oh, someone somewhere in the world has done it before you. So I tried personally to focus a little bit less on the new and a little bit more about What's unique for you as a brand, right? if you dig to the brand, once you start working on the typeface and understand their story, where they came from, who built this brand, where was the first office, what was the first flyers they made, then you can start understanding 

Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radek Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it [00:01:00] also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

Are you ready?  

My guest today lives and breathes everything about type design. She is a creative director at Dalton Mack, where she has created some of the most notable brand typefaces for the likes of Airbnb, Oracle, and Maker's Mark. Her interest in the science [00:02:00] of reading and its impact on type design influences our conversation, where we explore the evolution of brand typography, the importance of accessibility in type design, and the process of creating the custom typefaces for global brands.

We also talk about how her multicultural background influences her work and provides insights into delicate balance between innovation and functionality in type design. It's my pleasure to introduce Eleni Beverato.  

Radim Malinic: Eleni, how are you doing? 

Eleni Berevatou: Hello, I'm good.

Radim Malinic: So I'm excited to have you on the show. And for those who might have not heard of you, how would you describe yourself, what you do? 

Eleni Berevatou: So I'm Eleni, I'm creative director at Dalton Mags. I've been with Dalton Mags for 13 years now. And, basically I, design fonts, just letters.

Radim Malinic: Just letters. [00:03:00] sure we're going to put a lot more color on the just letters. 

Eleni Berevatou: Yeah, there's a lot more than just, but yes. 

Radim Malinic: I normally on this series ask people to talk about their beginnings, like where did the idea of creativity pass them by What was it like for you?

Eleni Berevatou: it's a funny story. I used to go to their Girl Scouts growing up and, At one point we had to do a poster for something and I made a poster and my mom said, Oh, have you ever considered becoming a graphic designer? And I was like, what's that? And, it was the very beginning of the internet, at least my house.

I'm sure internet exists before, but it's the first time we had like a computer and I could go to the internet. So I started researching and I was like, Oh, I quite like that. And that was the first spark I have to say. I I was always a creative child. I never played with dolls and toys. I was mainly doing crafts, but, that's where the term became like something that I want to do.

so yeah, it's a funny how that kind of, I have friends who decided to become graphic designers because they were [00:04:00] faking ideas for their friends to go to parties. And for me, it was more like a, Girl Scout poster, but there we go, whatever it takes. so that's, where it all started from.

And then. Yeah, I just carried on from there and I did my first studies in graphic design.but then I realized that I need, to learn more a little bit about type. If I want to be a good graphic designer, I think it's important that we all have a bit of type knowledge.what I didn't realize is that I actually love type more than I thought.

I used to hate type. I didn't use to like it at all as a, student because I just didn't understand it. It was given to me in a very complex way, either very playful, but almost so playful that you can't really do much with it, or extremely, how do you say, rigid, and don't want to say boring, but almost, something that has no flexibility or no creativity whatsoever.

So it I wasn't really aligning with it, but then I decided to do a master's in type design and I was like, Oh, actually, I really like this. And yeah, the rest is [00:05:00] history, 

 Did you ever feel if that first poster never happened, that it would be where you are today? 

That's a very good question. I think I would still be doing something creative, but potentially it would be more.

like more crafty, more less digital and more, I don't know, something else. I don't know what, because I wasn't very muchdespite us having a computer at home, I wasn't really. interested on it, right? So I kept on doing things with my hands. So I think I would still be some form of designer, maybe, some form of art, not drawing, but like more making things.

But, I don't know if I would have been a graphic designer. It's a, very good question. but definitely in that sphere. I don't think I would have been, I don't know, a mathematician, Do you 

Radim Malinic: the reason why it's because I found that through lots of guests on the show, they've always find a thing that I should have been doing, some people had all the liberation from their parents and do what you want.

This is what you [00:06:00] want to do. And some people were like wanting to do the thing and were not encouraged by their parents because of the security of the job market or the opportunity. So I do like that.I do believe that you would end up doing what you're doing today because I think this sort of emotional of soul charge that takes us to where we need to be.

Eleni Berevatou: So let's zoom in on type because type can be exhilarating.

Radim Malinic: Obviously it wasn't as exhilarating back then. As it is now. this is, potentially our view of the world. some people might say, it was always exhilarating, but I believe now that as a designer, as someone who uses and obsesses about type, we seem to have opened gate of what's possible.

And it seems like every brand's got its own type now. Everything's got its own type. Everyone can create own type. And all of a sudden, like we have a lot more. Then we really can use, can we? it feels like the world is a little bit oversaturated with the possibilities because you and I maybe struggled for options, whereas now we've got everything.

So before we really take this apart, [00:07:00] so take me from your hate to the love of type, like how did that happen? What changed? 

Eleni Berevatou: I think, when I went to the University of Reading, I, actually a step back, I decided to apply because I knew nothing about type. So I used to work in a graphic design studio in Greece and one thing that kept on coming up in the projects I was working was how bad my typography was and the use of type.

And it was a valid comment, it was one of the times that I took a step back and I was like, actually, I see why. because I don't know anything about it. And I, yeah, so I decided to enroll to the Masters and to apply to the Masters of the University of Reading. And what I didn't know is that it's, One of the places to be if you want to do a type design.

It is the master's to follow Which was amazing, but there was a massive gap between my no knowledge to the [00:08:00] expectations Oh and the amazing program that this university has. I remember it was like two months before that like Oh no, I really need to do it. Like now applied, I got accepted, but oh fuck, I know nothing about it, genuinely nothing.

So I found this amazing, type workshop in Slovenia. It was a week long, called Brada and you were going there and you were drawing your own typeface. And I was like, you know what? I have to do like this crash course. I need to learn a little bit because people at that university will have so much more knowledge than me.

So I went on the plane and I had just downloaded FontLab. half an hour before boarding the plane and I'm in the plane trying to understand the software so that even when going to the workshop, I can a little bit know how to, draw a square in it. And I did that. And yeah, of course, the typeface that I created was not, worth showing to [00:09:00] anyone anymore, but it was actually one of my favorite.

experiences with type because the people there were lovely and really, really helping you to understand the basics and how that works. And then I went to, after that, I, of course, went back home, packed for Reading. And this was a, big learning journey for me, which was very, very interesting because I had so much to learn.

I had to learn the tool. I had to learn how type works. I had to learn the industry. I had to understand even how Greek type works, which was a very interesting part for me because you think that because you are, I'm from Greece. I grew up in Greece. And I was surrounded with Greek type, yet I had a very, I don't want to say wrong view of Greek type, but just the correct one.

What happened when I was growing up is that type in Greece was very Latinized. So the Greek shapes we would see, were actually very Latinized. So I had to unlearn that this is not, this has actually not, has been bastardized. It's not the way it should [00:10:00] look. So there was a lot of unlearning to also do in that master's, which was really good.

And I think what really clicked for me is that I had always had a really strong attention to detail. And type is all about that, right? I also had a strong, like if you, saw my portfolio before Reading, it was actually full of colors and full of patterns. And while we don't use so much color with, type anymore, with a few exceptions, there is a concept of pattern and repetition and, using something that you use in one shape to in another and how do you create that?

There was that, and then the third part that came in that really kicked in, I think, was my multicultural upbringing and, as I said before, raised in Greece, but in a French school. I had, all my friends were people from all over the world that were using different writing systems. I had a penpal in Japan that she was sending me the Japanese letters when I was a kid.

And I think I still remember her letters, but that was my favorite from back then. [00:11:00] So I almost realized that it was something also that throughout my childhood, I've been fascinated to see type from other parts of the world without the realizing, What that meant to me. so I think it was a combination of those three elements.

I said, Oh, actually, I really love type and I want to learn more about it. 

Radim Malinic: so much to unpick from what you just said. firstly, I want to know, how does one just find a lettering workshop in Slovenia? How did you find it? I was down, I'm admiring that thing that you just said, like I've just downloaded phone lab the way there, just as an answer, because.

This is a life of a designer. most of the time, especially from the early days, because we say yes to lots of things only to really say, it should have been a no because I've got no idea how to do this, but we throw ourselves in and again, like is a recurring theme on this podcast there.

naivety, which is the fuel that sort of takes us to unknown. Of course you can't do it all your life because it just, it gets a little bit tiring. it's still adventurous, sometimes you need respite because your cortisol would be like, [00:12:00] off the chart. Slovenia, type, like how did you even find it?

 because that's the first step to accountability. Like you realize you said that I thought that everyone in the master's program would have so much more knowledge about type. Did they? 

Eleni Berevatou: A lot did. Yes. I'd say a good. 80 percent of the people had way more knowledge and, I would even say a good 30, 40 percent were for their level, quite in an expert, already field.

yeah, it's a really good place that gathers people that had type as a passion. the way I told you, I want to be a graphic designer when I was 14, there are people that say, I want to be a type designer when they are 14. So they have done all this research.

10 years before they arrive at this, program. So yeah, there are a few people that really have amazing knowledge. The way I found the workshop in Slovenia is that, as I said, I was in Greece, I was working there and I decided to quit my job, apply for the master's. And [00:13:00] then I got accepted as I mentioned, and I said, okay, you know what, I still have four months until the master starts.

Why don't I do something now that I have the time, why don't I do something with graphic design? And I had a bit of savings from my first job. So I booked design conference that was happening in the Netherlands at the time. it was a European design, conference and I booked a ticket for there and I went there and one of the guys that I spoke to just randomly, as conferences are, you just meet people right over a beer.

was asking about me and what's next. So I said, Oh, I'm going to do the master's in type design. And turns out he was the organizer of that workshop in Slovenia. So he convinced me and I said, yes. 

Radim Malinic: Oh, that's fantastic. 

Eleni Berevatou: Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: I think it just proves the fact that so many connections are made firsthand at such events.

Eleni Berevatou: I think it's very important. Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah. Because we've got a thriving community online, but even if you go to an event, like the [00:14:00] one you described or whatever else in the world, and you meet someone for five minutes, you become friends on what used to be Twitter or anywhere else, you have a slightly different connection avatar.

EP 20 - Eleni Berevatou: Yeah, absolutely. 

Radim Malinic: You said that your work is to be quite full of color and patterns, and then obviously it's a little bit less about color and patterns, but you mentioned that you got sort of attention to detail and passion for detail. Is it something that you need as a type designer? Which I believe is essential, right?

Eleni Berevatou: A hundred percent. Yes. the amount of, maybe I'm overdoing it potentially, but I think I'm not alone in the type design world. Let's put it this way. it requires a lot of patience and a lot of, like you zoom in. a letter so big and you look at, the curves in a scale that no one will ever look at them.

And you care about the way the big curves to, reflect what other letters are doing. So yeah, it is really, really important because it is a craft based on precision, [00:15:00] right? yes, of course, there's a lot of expression. There's a lot of experimentation. There's a lot of, making things that are, not perfect.

And I actually always encourage those. I don't want people to think that type is only the precision, but Even in a lot of those crazy experimental type, there is a sense of precision once you go to the second or third level of crafting typeface. So a required skill and I think looking just even at my colleagues, we're all very different and, all come from different backgrounds and have different ways of expressing ourselves, but I think we do have that in common.

Some more than others, but It is a skill that you have. Yes. 

Radim Malinic: So let's abridge your masters and your new found knowledge about type. And now obviously being creative director of Dalton Mac. When you enrolled and obviously you were surrounded by people who were, 80 percent experts, did it feel intimidating?

obviously you are going there with knowledge that you potentially don't know [00:16:00] almost anything compared to the others. How was your confidence? How did you feel? Cause I always feel and I spoke to Jim O'Brien about this, like the world of typographers and type designers. It's a little bit Stern Boy's Club sometimes, I used to say, I used to be intimidated by some of the type designers because there's this aura, as you said, it's a craft based on precision, people who work on precision with high patience are not going to be jokers, or they, at least they don't come across as jokers and frivolous idiots, so obviously that precision and the craft come together with a little bit more of a sort of reserved personality.

And I was like, as a man, I found it quite intimidating. I was like, I don't really want to be friends with these people because they don't like, you say one thing wrong and they're like, Oh, All right. All right. Okay. Chill, chill, take your ligature somewhere else. 

EP 20 - Eleni Berevatou: It's just a ligature, mate.

Radim Malinic: Exactly. There's other things to worry about, but anyway, how was that sort of from a personal perspective, obviously being in a different country, in a different environment, learning something that you prepared yourself for not being fully ready. So how was it? How did you feel?

And how was the [00:17:00] progress? 

Eleni Berevatou: Such a great question. okay. In the beginning, my confidence was crushed. I'm not gonna lie. Absolutely crushed because when I was doing my graphic design, degree in Greece, it was going quite well. I was used to, have an idea and make it and it was working and, I was progressing well.

So I was used to creating things that work and, are well received. And, I arrived in a place where I was borderline underperforming in the beginning, it was really hard for me because I knew nothing, right?so I was really crushed in the beginning. I remember it was, really hard.

And of course it's not just the master's degree, as you said, but you are in a different country, you're in a different, suddenly you've changed your whole life. So you also have to adjust in other parts of your life. Simple things as learn where the new supermarket is and find time for this in, amongst other things that you have.

It's, stupid things, but everything counts, right? in a beginning like that.so in the beginning it was quite [00:18:00] crashed. then I found a topic that I was very interested on and I managed to build on it and then my confidence started to, build up slowly and my knowledge also started to build up.

So that was the first part. As for the part of the people, which I think is very important what you say. very interesting, the type community. I think I also, arrived and enrolled to this master's when the type community, in my opinion, was also changing in terms of personality as a group. you're right that if you read publications or if you are online, Especially at the time, it could appear very stiff or very unapproachable.

But actually the people, once you meet them in conferences or at university when they were coming, everyone was lovely and everyone was very approachable and very much someone like you and that. gave me a little bit of confidence that get to meet the person, get to speak with them. But my classmates, they were all very nice and we bonded very well.

And [00:19:00] because the university is in Reading, which is a, it's a smaller city than London, right? it's a good balance between doing your masters, having things to do, but also having time for your master friends, like I wasn't in a city where I had also other friends. It was my friends from the masters.

So we got to meet each other also in a more personal way. way. And that way we understood, where everyone's good and where everyone's bad. And, the balances are not just, Oh, look, this person is amazing at doing type. I'm worth nothing, because we all balanced our, positive negative traits, that makes sense.

And yeah, I think overall the type design community. I want to believe that now, 15 years later, we appear a lot more approachable. I hope we are, and I know we are, but I hope we also appear more approachable because actually the people are lovely and very, very nice. And one thing I have learned is to your point about how we used to [00:20:00] talk about that.

That's maybe something I learned from those early months of being very crushed and intimidated that never speak in this tone to people because you have this expert knowledge. Other people have other expertise and you don't need to speak in a way as if you need to establish how good you are.

I don't think anyone is gonna doubt your expertise if you speak like a normal person without, interjecting weird and difficult terminology for someone to understand. So that's something I personally took on and I tried to do to speak about type in a hopefully approachable way.

I tried to say it the way I would have loved to hear it. I 

Radim Malinic: I think the way you go about it now, I think it's a fantastic way to do it because obviously you, almost democratize in the way the type is explained, like how it's put in the right bite size knowledge language that people can understand it much easier.

But we'll talk about it just in a second, [00:21:00] but me that you were underperforming. But then you find a topic that was a breakthrough in this. What was it? was that sort of, what was that moment that sun was slightly brighter and nicer and warmer afterwards? 

Eleni Berevatou: at Reading you have to create a typeface.

 and you also have to submit a dissertation. And those topics can be the same or they can be different. it doesn't really matter. I decided, because I was struggling a lot with the making of the type at the time, because as we said, like new tools, new everything for me.

I decided to take a little bit of a step back for just a few weeks and focus a little bit more on the written part. And this is where I decided to research more about, type and, partially sighted people and how do they recognize shapes, how do they see shapes. And. This was something that, while I didn't have a lot of knowledge in, I had better knowledge in, or not knowledge, [00:22:00] but it was more natural for me to go and do the research because I set up a research where I was actually meeting,people that were partially sighted and we would go through my research and I would write down their results and, build from there.  

that, because I was having questions while preparing this research and analyzing it, then I started reading more as well about type and then things started to click from a perspective that I understand it, what makes, for example, a typeface accessible, what are the parts of a typeface that you can be more expressive and so on and so forth.

So that's really what helped me to, yeah, to grow in that. And then I was able to go and pick up my type design part more. I was a little bit late because of, doing it a little bit the other way around, but in the longterm, it doesn't matter. 

Radim Malinic: It definitely does not. that's a beautiful way to unlock that true meaning, the true purpose of like, why would I do type?

Because you can get in the world of type because it looks pretty. [00:23:00] But unlike with anything else, and I'm going to borrow a quote from James O'Brien, who's the radio presenter on LBC, there's opinions and there's counting, I feel like type is like the counting is based on facts, like it's, a geometry.

Like obviously it's rooted in something that if you can't read it, it doesn't work, so how do you make this stuff? I'm glad asked you about a breakthrough because that has unlocked, I think, for me, like the knowledge of what you do, that next level of don't just fall in love with type because it's pretty.

You fall in love with idea of the subject of type because it works. And especially because it serves people and how we can unlock a better quality of life, You're doing this research and did you then go on to create your typeface? 

Eleni Berevatou: I did. I did. Yes.

originally I wanted to create a typeface that would be for, like very legible for partially sighted people, but actually because you only have, what, 10 months to do this, even less, I think the actual design, my, theoretical research was, had to be even more advanced for me to be [00:24:00] able to implement any of the practical part within the time frame that I had.

So at some point, I broke from this and I was like, look, We can come back to this another day. now, I'll just do what I like for my practical, piece. yeah, in the end it's split, although originally the idea was that it will be together, but. To do that, I think you need to have first finished your paper, and then you have a clear idea of what you need to draw once you have all your research, all your results, all your knowledge in place.

But doesn't matter, because for me, as I said, one informed the other. both informed who I am today and, how then I could take this knowledge into my professional career. So to me, at least it doesn't really matter how it worked for, that one year there. 

Radim Malinic: I've got a question, when.

you learn your language and when you, especially when you move to a new country, you start dreaming in that language. when you start doing creative work, you think you're a genius because all of a sudden you wake up at four o'clock in [00:25:00] the morning having ideas, thinking, is this right? what was the world of time that obviously you moved into a new surrounding, which you created a new life in a way, a new, chapter of your life.

And then obviously now you're going into, research to find out how people see shapes and obviously how we can make it functional. Did you have that sort of Eureka moment that all of a sudden, like you could see the good and bad about typography. You started studying every letter sign and stuff.

Did you have that moment? 

Eleni Berevatou: Yeah. Not so much, because one thing that I consciously try to do is that when I don't draw type that I'm not focusing on looking at type, because type is everywhere around us, right? it's, no matter where you look you're gonna see some type. even if you're in a remote place there's gonna be some kind of sign with some kind of letters, right?

it's one of those forms that exist more than others in my opinion. so I tried when I don't draw type I try to switch off from this [00:26:00] and almost be, Oh, it's just type there, sometimes things catch my attention, of course, but I'm not obsessing over it.

Radim Malinic: But if you were to roll it back to your writing days, especially at the time of your master's, did you feel the same about it?

because obviously that's time of the learning, obviously you're picking up on all sorts of nuances, because as you say, typography is a, craft based on precision, did that. when you were making your first typeface and trying to join all the dots together.

Eleni Berevatou: Oh yeah, back then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think even to the day, if let's say I'm working on a specific project, I started noticing that specific design everywhere. And you're like, how did I not notice this? I pass, this shop every day, had not seen this, the font they're using. so yeah, I think the moment you start looking at the, and you're right, the moment I started looking at type and accessibility, I did start to see how many times.

It's done correctly and even more many times it's done wrongly, like you start noticing it and, you start to build your own mental research as you [00:27:00] move around in your day to day. 

Radim Malinic: I'm going to sound clever because it's called the frequency illusion known as a Baden Meinhof phenomenon.

It's a cognitive bias in which person notices a specific concept word or product more frequently after recently becoming aware of it. Thank you, Google. 

Eleni Berevatou: There you go. It's absolutely that. 

Radim Malinic: I knew that, I knew it had a name by the mind half and, I couldn't just remember it, but it's that thing that all of a sudden we become hyper focused on the subject that's of interest to us.

And I can totally now, aware of the similar situations, like when you're working on something. You want to switch off away from, okay, I'm on holiday, type looks great because everything smells and tastes great and sounds better on holiday. But yeah, sometimes you just want that peace of mind when you're focusing on something that you're working on.

Eleni Berevatou: I also think it's important to take away, like to move away from your focus. Because I think that's a mistake I'll speak with for, the type design, but I'm assuming other people and other industries can relate is that, In my opinion, [00:28:00] very often, if you do type, you focus just on type, but actually it's important to also know about, I don't know, other parts like theater, music, food, because one thing informs the other.

And it's, in my opinion, the more you get visual cues from other things and other parts that are, have nothing to do with type, the more you can then innovate more in type, right? Because you don't recycle something within the samefield, but you take inspiration from a completely different point and you're like, oh, how would this food If it was a typeface, and this is such a stupid example, but it's more to say that I think it's important to not just focus on one thing and, only try to get inspiration from this one thing.

Radim Malinic: I really want to geek out now about what you do day to day, because I've been doing this for nearly 25 years. And I remember when there was lots of. Fonts and typefaces to buy because they were pre made and you this fits me now, right? Okay. This, fits for [00:29:00] this project. The client likes it.

It can potentially look different to a competition. Great. Whereas now, wherever you look, every brand's got its new type, like everyone creates that, cause I guess this might be the licensing money. It might be the own ability. It might be the brand equity, et cetera. So we're going to take it bit step by step because obviously when you started with Dalton Mac, I guess that was 13 years ago, right?

maybe wasn't as prevalent as now that, you need to study the brand and kind of work out what the typeface is, but let's talk about the evolution of, branded typeface and of the type used in for branding and how sort of the evolution of branded typeface has now become so ubiquitous that you can't really see a new rebrand if I stumbling over a new brand typeface.

So yeah, I'm excited to know more. 

Eleni Berevatou: isn't it great to start with, that I think brands are doing, and I'm not saying this because I make a living out of this. but I think, I love how more and more brands don't see type, oh, it's just type, just use any. I think they [00:30:00] understand the impact and the importance of type in the brand the same way they understand the impact of colors and images.

And, you wouldn't use. the same 10 colors for all the brands that you create as a designer. So you wouldn't use the same 10 images for the same brand, so why use the same 10 typefaces, right? And I think it's very, very positive that brands see that. of course it also comes from a very pragmatic perspective, right?

It's, it's very different once they own. the typeface Of course, it comes from pragmatic business point of view, and I completely understand that, but the impact it has to me, it's so big that I think it's great that, more and more brands do that. What I find fascinating is if you think of a brand and you think of them having their own type system, first of all, they will create something that is very functional to them and to their needs.

And sometimes the end goal [00:31:00] is also to be very unique in tone of voice, right? Sometimes it needs to also look very, very different so that,someone who is not a designer would instantly recognize a brand just from the typeface. But some other type times being unique is not what end goal is, but it's about having a tool that can work.

everywhere, because if you think of a brand nowadays, it's print, it's digital, it's large size, it's small size, it's phones, it's computer, like it's in the scale is so much bigger than it used to be back in the days that it's harder and harder from a practical perspective to take something that is ready made and just put it in your brand.

I'm not saying it's not possible and I'm not, against it in any way, I'm just saying that It's just harder if you have to combine all those elements together, and then you add one more component, which is the component of a lot of brands nowadays get more and more [00:32:00] international. And so there are even less typefaces that would be doing all the things that a brand wants.

So be expressive, be unique, be functional, work in all the different environments, last for a few years and also exist in, let's say, Latin and Greek and Cyrillic, right? Like suddenly you start to reduce your choices more and more. And a lot of brands find it a lot easier to build. exactly this from the ground up and then start to add as well, the writing systems that they need.

So I think that's why we see it more and more today. I 

Radim Malinic: think, what you quite beautifully said, is an exciting time where brands can think more about typography and type like that, than ever before, because I guess we've learned more about this. Like we've learned, we've democratized the information, we're more liberated in actually knowing that as opposed to, chaining yourself to something, which has been through.

And a trend,for example, let's talk the rebrand of Airbnb. [00:33:00] They used circular and then everyone in the world use circular, like everyone in the world use circular. And before that you have a Gotham. And before, I remember friend of mine, Seb Lester, he did this typeface called Soho, which is.

And Soho 2008 9 Soho, everyone used Soho because it just defined the time. And I can't think obviously beyond what was that, like obviously Helvetica mid 2000s, like Helvetica think Designers Republic pretty much designed everything for about five years with Helvetica. 

Everyone used the same 10 fonts for a very long time, and it was like, okay, that's exciting. But then you can play Gotham Bingo in your supermarket. it becomes very, very similar. So I think it's nice. I've 

EP 20 - Eleni Berevatou: never thought of that. I like it. I'll do it. 

Radim Malinic: here's a Gotham Bingo and you just see the same font. Obviously. Now, let's say Airbnb have switched to their own, branded typeface, They've got their own, cause it's ownable, you own it. Obviously you don't have to pay the, as you said, the distribution and the licensing fees, but I prefer circular to what they did, cause you get used to it, like we can [00:34:00] tell nuances when Google switches, let's say the link color, from tiny, like they change the hue of blue.

We can see it when we are used to something. Our minds and our eyes and our senses made a connection of this is familiarity, but now we've changed it. Of course, I'll get used to it. But for a while, you're like, nah, that was better before. But obviously there's practical reasons. 

Eleni Berevatou: Do you know we did the Airbnb typeface, the new one?

You did it. Yeah. But I, no, you know what, I love what you actually just said. because it is very typical and I get it all the time that when you switch from design A to design B, I'm like, why did you do that? Design A was so much better. I'm sure there's a term we can Google for this the same way it was the other one.

there is definitely something about that. And to be honest, I personally consider this a success when people get annoyed or, unhappy with the new result because it means you are challenging the [00:35:00] status quo. And very often we get used and we like things that actually. are not working are wrong, right?

for a brand or for anything. And a very good example is And I'm bringing back the research that I did for type and accessibility, but you know how everywhere it says, Oh, use Arial for good accessible type. Arial is one of the worst typefaces we can use for accessibility. It's true. it's just not working for, especially people that have, visual impairment.

It scores really, really low, but there is, people are used to see that. So I remember when I was doing my research and I was actually showing typefaces, to people that were visually impaired, every time they would see a typeface that was not Arial, they didn't want to engage with the content and I had to persuade them and say, I understand it's harder to read, but do you mind, because it's for my research, I really need the data and they were like, okay, I'll read it.

And actually they were performing better. They were reading [00:36:00] better and faster than they were using with Arial, but they just didn't want to engage with it. And I think this happens with a lot of brands where, you change from design A to design B. The user gets shocked by it and it's why did we do that?

The previous one was so much better. but actually once you get used to the change. It works so much more, naturally than the previous one did, right? And to your example of Airbnb, for example, the typeface now is not just in Latin, but in Greek and Cyrillic and Arabic. So if you switch as a user, because Airbnb mainly caters people that are from all over the world traveling to another part of the world, right?

You get to have the same experience everywhere, whereas before you were not. if you were using the Greek version of Airbnb, it had nothing to do with the Arabic version of Airbnb and so on and so forth. I'm, and I'm not saying that that this negative feeling is always positive in the end, because sometimes actually a [00:37:00] new design is also bad, right?

but in my opinion, most of the times it's a good thing. it takes you away from your comfort zone and you have to readjust yourself to something. And very often this new something is actually better. It's just, we are creatures of habit, so we don't like this new, design. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, what I was trying to say, I think with having a particular eye for shapes, I was like thrown by the shape of the letter A.

it wasn't that, what you did was any sort of thought provoking or rebellious or something that I would have subjective feeling to it. I think I've just got this condition that certain letters, you react to them a little bit differently the way they're written.

it'd be great if we can talk about the Airbnb for a bit, because obviously what you mentioned earlier was the sort of bigger picture of like, how do you create something that not only needs to be elegant, it also needs to really work, this is going back to that quote about accounting, like it just needs to add up.

Like, how'd you do that? So when it comes to rebrands, when it comes to [00:38:00] redoing brand. Fonts and typeface. how'd you go about it? Like how much work goes into it and like how much research, testing strategy goes into all of this? Because end user will see it and some will have a reaction because it's a subjective reaction.

but over time, obviously we just get used to it because we just grow through exposure and repetition. So tell me, how does this work? 

Eleni Berevatou: it's more than you can think, which I love that part. I love when we talk type with our clients. Most of the times we finish a call and they're like, I didn't know type can go so deep.

there is a lot of things to consider. We like to always start with a research phase, that we do together with a client. We consider this very, very, very important because usually we receive a brief, right? Because you have to receive a brief in order to be able to give a quote. Otherwise you can't, how do you start?

How do you quantify the work that needs to happen? And in theory, that brief seems complete, right? Because most of the [00:39:00] times oh, we want a typeface with, five ways from hairline to. semi bold, whatever, and italics. And we want a sans serif. Perfect. So that sounds technically defined, right? sometimes some clients say, Oh, it needs to work in small size or it needs to work in small and large sizes.

So sometimes it goes even a little bit deeper, but what we really want to learn in that research phase is, sans serif themselves as typefaces, there can be many, many, many genres in that,dive a little bit more into the different genres, also understanding how it's going to, be implemented.

We try to have those research phases, not just with the team that commissions us to do this work. for a lot of the projects, let's say we have the branding team that comes to us and says, Hey, We want a new typeface, right? Very often for clients, there is a branding team, and then there is a UI team, and then there is [00:40:00] a, international team, and so on and so forth, and we try in that workshop to have all the teams, even if they're not the ones that have commissioned us for this, because what's important is to create, not just something that is going to work for, if you, spark the discussion. the exercises themselves I love them, but what I love the most is the discussion that happens while doing the exercise, almost the coffee talk that comes out of this.

It's just the, the exercise is just the, fire starter for what's unraveling. And usually we get a lot of very interesting and nice information about that and about how the typeface needs to be created and how, what are the limitations? Very often our clients have limitations. For example, to give you an example, we've done the typeface for the BBC and,in the news, there is this red banner that has a name.

I always forget it. Ticker, there you go. And the ticker has limitations with the heights.because of the ticker, the Q [00:41:00] in the BBC wreath typeface doesn't have a, the uppercase Q, doesn't have a, like a tail that goes vertically, but it's a bit more horizontal to fit in that. And that's very much, that's a design, that's something you need to consider in early stages of design.

Although most of the times, if you hadn't had that research phase to try to understand where it's going to land, it would appear when the people that receive the typeface and work on the ticker will use it and be like, Oh, guys, it's clipping. Can we change it? so we try to anticipate some of those things early on.

And to me, that research phase is my favorite part of the workshop and then the first designs, of course.but yeah, I would say that's. mainly how we go about it and how we start a project. 

Radim Malinic: I will take it apart a little bit, because you said we got a brief, so we need a brief. So we can do a quote or we can, can give a quote.

and what you described sounds like, just sort of like a naive or just a generic a [00:42:00] shopping basket of ideas. Like we need, this. We think we need this. How often do you find yourself delivering something that doesn't resemble the original brief whatsoever, because. What do you find in your research and what do you find, through strategy and obviously these questions and exercises can sometimes can become something completely different, right?

I know it from branding. Like people come here with an idea because, Oh, I've seen something and I think that's good for me. Only to realize that the competition is using the same thing. Everyone's let's say using Gotham or blue. And then you're like, I want Gotham. Do you really, I think if you could tell me about the exercises that you do with that sort of coffee water cooler kind of talk, just, yeah, what is in there?

Because I think we find, as you said, we find so much more information in these early stages that. Both sides, I impressed because obviously you were impressed. You got the right questions to unlock something that the client wasn't even thinking, and especially with your research and the application, you can't bullshit that.

Like it has to work. So what exercises do you guys do?

Eleni Berevatou: [00:43:00] So go back to your, semi first question, which was how often do you find yourself delivering something else than the original brief? from a quote perspective, it stays the same, right? The quote is general anyway, but from a visual ambition and result, some of my favorite projects were projects that were like, Oh, we just want a very geometric typeface.

We want this. And it's usually coming from what we have been discussing so far, right? The trends, what the competition is doing, what the brand currently, maybe that brand was stuck, in a typeface that was popular 20 years ago. And now. they need to feel fresh. And very often you think, okay, what is fresh right now?

And usually what's fresh right now is also what's trendy. So it does happen quite often. that during those research phases and those talks, client says, you know what? We don't want what's [00:44:00] trendy now. We want to create something that is gonna, look good also in the future and be fresh also in 10 years now.

We don't want to come at the end of the trend curve and just add yet another. Of whatever that is. so it happens quite often to have a client that visually came, not from the pragmatic quoting perspective, because that usually remains the same and, the scope usually is well defined on. where it needs to land, and how many weights.

I think that's always pretty straightforward, but more from a visual output. I could say a good 60 70 percent changes from the original visual, And it takes always a brave person in the room as well from the end client to say, let's do something new. Let's do something that is going to be good for us and not only follows a trend and what competition is doing.

And I just love when this moment happens. so to your question about [00:45:00] the exercises that we do. They're all exercises that, they look, some of them look at type in a very, wide perspective and some of them look at type in a very detailed perspective. Most of the times it's about not discussing the solution, but understanding.

if you say, oh, I want a friendly typeface, what's friendly for you might be very different to what's friendly for me, right? so it's about understanding what do you mean by friendly. So it's exercises along those lines and it's not about, Oh, what do you think about this typeface? Would you like this typeface for your brand?

Because that's, not going to work, but it's about how do you feel when you see this typeface? I've been very surprised with how people emotionally react to fonts, things that I would consider very stiff. I've heard them being very open and I don't know, neutral. And I was like, Oh, okay. I would have never considered.

So I just love. this unlocking part. But [00:46:00] what I've really loved is when a client, and it happens, it happens, especially if you are face to face, that a client will say, let's just do something different. and this is for me what the, the penny drops. It's okay, great. 

Radim Malinic: But would you say that opens a whole can of worms, Oh, let's do something different.

Okay. What do you think is different? What do you think? Because obviously what you're describing fantastic in a way that you bring different teams together, from the UI to brands, marketing, just actually have them all in the same room because there's nothing worse than revealing something new, To a client or to their team, they're like, I wasn't part of this. what is this? Because it's well documented that the more people are involved that are not also always decision makers, that it's easier for the roller, easier for the buyer. And when you said 60 to 70 percent changes from the briefs to the outcome, I think that just shows the testament of like how this is guided, that actually people end up with something that really works because I love when you said friendly typeface.

Friendly typeface. we both know Sarah [00:47:00] Heineman, who's been doing crikey, at least for the last 10 years of research on the type tasting and type psychology. And her results are so wildly different because of experiences of, backgrounds of different ages, like her preferences, social, placements.

So I think it's just all lands. And I think doing something that needs to work for everyone from the functioning perspective. And then have also someone that actually falls in love with it. I think it's, yeah, I think it must be quite a tricky task because you must be balancing quite a lot, especially from stakeholders.

Sometimes, we get stakeholders who just want to make sure that they look good as the winner from the outcome. So they've got their own sort of personal ambition through this, or they might be slightly nervous about this. So it's tricky. And there's only one thing and you can only get, you can tweak it as many times, but obviously the outcome, you can't hide behind it.

How hard is it to make something different? Because it's all been done, right? 

Eleni Berevatou: There's a lot that has been done for sure. The same way we already have Many, many black dresses out there, right? how do you create a new black dress? it's a hard [00:48:00] question and I'm not sure I have the best answer yet because, and it's funny because it's a question that I get asked over and over and over, and especially when we, speak with clients, for new projects.

We haven't secured it yet. And it's one of the worries like, okay, if I'm going to invest this money, how can I get something new? So I don't think I can, express how I feel about this in the best possible way, but I will try. I, try to focus not on the new personally. I try to, because as you said, first of all, there's so much that has been done and Also, you can't know everything, right?

You might think you're creating something new and fresh and six months in you find out that, oh, someone somewhere in the world has done it before you. So I tried personally to focus a little bit less on the new and a little bit more about What's unique for you as a brand, right? if you dig to the brand, [00:49:00] once you start working on the typeface and understand their story, where they came from, who built this brand, where was the first office, what was the first flyers they made, then you can start understanding, in my opinion, their visual, treasure and you create something that is fresh and new while at the same time being this brand and yeah, end result that is unique to this brand.

you might, maybe the end result is similar to, I don't know, that you find in another brand, but that's not the point, right? just that everything will click once you have the, something that is created, with taking into consideration all the components that we discussed before, the before, the after, the history, the, requirements, all those things, then you're going to have something that works for the brand.

And I'm personally less concerned if it doesn't [00:50:00] exist somewhere else, because the intent was not to create something, it might happen that it has some similarities with something else, but that was not the intent. You started by building something from the ground up that works for this brand. And that to me will be.

Fresh and long lasting for this brand. And yeah, that's what I tried to focus on. I don't know if I answered 

Radim Malinic: you answered it beautifully because it's like, we have a lot of black dresses, why do we keep getting black dresses? That's the same of like we got 26 characters in the Roman alphabet, but we Not make new words.

We still make new meanings. We still write new, things. We're still making new black dresses. We got 12 notes in the scale, but we still make new music. there's a size amount of chords, but we still, we go somewhere. And I think a few minutes ago you said something quite beautiful.

You said sometimes we get clients not to do what's trending now, but what will be trending in 10 years? what will it be like because. When you've been honest, deep, as a person, as a brand, when you when you double down on who you are, there's this sort of point of self [00:51:00] acceptance. When you start looking inwards, as you say, I some forensic audit of things that have been done in the past, like what you built on top as a brand, because humanly, like as a person, you know where you've been and what you can do and what you can make, like how you can improve as a person and how you can speak, talk, express yourself.

I think when you become ownable. All of a sudden that competition and that newness or originality doesn't necessarily matter because you do what stands for what's true to you. I think that's what it is. like that you said that thing about addresses because it's just you get those sort of popular opinions and I threw a bit of a curveball question, you get this popular opinions, let's do something this and let's do something that, and that's just basically, that's just a.

Client bingo, that it just goes, that's just empty questions. let me actually explain to you how this works, how this should work, what we can do and how we can guide you through it, because I think any client who declines, a good or solid advice is then really on their own. thank you so much.

this has been really, really great. I've learned a lot from this [00:52:00] and yeah, it's been great to watch your journey keep doing what you're doing because you're traveling with your workshop, you're teaching people, you're enlightening them about the future.

And I think that's what we need because I'm sure you agree, like it's never been more exciting as it is today to do what you want to do, to have a brand type face, regardless of how big is your brand and express yourself in a way that will appeal to people in the best possible way. So thank you.

Eleni Berevatou: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much. And for the amazing questions, I generally really like them. And I I think you almost did what I was talking about doing when creating typefaces, you ask about you, right? And you dig more. And the more you dig into someone's story and someone, Yeah, it's just really, really nice.

So thank you for those questions. I really enjoyed them. 

Radim Malinic: Thank you so much. 

So I'm actually going to throw in one extra thing, because you said if I wasn't going to be a graphic designer, I would still do something crafts analogue. With the craft based on precision, working with your hands, really, it's just a digital form. That's, what it really, truly is. [00:53:00] Right?

Eleni Berevatou: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think I might have been a textile designer is my plan B. 

Radim Malinic: there's always a second part of your career. Eleni, thanks very much for your time today. And it was a pleasure. And I look forward to seeing you somewhere on a festival circuit and some other random country, city sometime soon.

Thank you. 

Eleni Berevatou: Same. Thank you so much. Bye bye. 

Outro: Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malanich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode.  [00:54:00]