A journey of transforming public spaces into creative expression - Stephanie Boutari

"In the beginning I was more fearless because I had nothing to lose. Now I've developed a reputation, but I'm better at saying no." - Stephanie Boutari

Stephanie Boutari shares her journey from studying architecture to becoming a mural artist in Southern Ontario, Canada. Originally from Bahrain with Egyptian heritage, Stephanie initially chose architecture as a "safer" career path despite her lifelong passion for art. After years of suppressing her creative identity, she reconnected with her artistic roots during her master's thesis by exploring color, surfaces, and architecture. 

Her first mural experience—painting outside her architecture school where everyone could see her—marked the beginning of her transition. After working in architecture left her physically ill (culminating in a ruptured appendix), she finally embraced mural art as her full-time career. Stephanie approaches each project with a deep consideration for the architectural context, integrating existing features like windows and structural elements into her compositions. 

She now dreams of expanding her reach to paint multi-story buildings and participating in international street art festivals.

Key Takeaways:

• Stephanie uses architectural principles in her art, creating geometric murals that play with depth and three-dimensional effects on two-dimensional surfaces
• Her first mural came from simply asking a building owner if she could paint their wall, showing the power of initiative
• Each completed mural naturally led to more commissions through visibility and word-of-mouth
• She balances creative freedom with client needs, but always stays true to her artistic vision
• Physical challenges of mural painting include weather limitations, construction site complications, and physical fatigue
• Social media metrics aren't as meaningful as genuine audience connection and feedback
• Her evolution as an artist includes being more selective about projects and setting boundaries while still pushing her creative comfort zone

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Transcript

Stephanie Boutari: [00:00:00] in a way I'm like somehow both more brave and less brave. because in the beginning I think I was more fearless in the way that I had nothing to lose and no one really knew me as this artist.

but now that I've just been doing this properly, I'm an artist and I've developed a reputation. There is that kind of fear sometimes that still gets the better of me or anxiousness what if I'm not getting better?

Or what if this project isn't as good as the last one. And some ways, I think I'm in my head a little more, but I do feel like I'm more confident. I'm better at putting my foot down and I'm better at going for things that are outside of my comfort zone. [00:01:00] Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radek Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

Are you ready?  

Radim Malinic: My guest today is a multidisciplinary artist based in Waterloo, [00:02:00] Ontario. Her practice focuses on creating large scale outdoor artworks for businesses and public spaces. She blurs the lines between art and design, and her creative process draws influences from range of subjects including architecture, pop art, pattern design, nature, street art, and immersive and interactive art.

In our conversation, we talked about her years of suppressing her creative identity and about a time when she reconnected with her artistic roots during her master's thesis. By exploring color services and architecture. It's my pleasure to introduce Stephanie Ari.  

Hey Stephanie, how are you doing? 

Stephanie Boutari: Hey, I'm great. How are you? 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, it's nice to have you on the show. it's a conversation I've been looking forward to because, I know a little bit about your story, but I don't know too much. So I'm quite happy to unravel and learn more about you. But for those who might have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?

Stephanie Boutari: [00:03:00] I'm Steph Butari. I'm an artist, primarily paint murals, a lot of large scale, colorful work, using spray paint or acrylics for commercial clients and cities. Architects, all kinds of people. I'm based in Canada in Southern Ontario. That's where most of my work can be found. 

Radim Malinic: Excellent stuff. your story is.

Someone non linear into what you do today, because not only you didn't grow up in Canada, you didn't always do mural work, So let's rewind it back and yeah, see what a first encounter with creativity was. And yeah, how did your career grow?

Stephanie Boutari: Yeah, it's a very complicated. indirect way that I got to murals. Like I definitely never thought I would be in this career. so I guess I have to rewind quite a bit back because art was always a really big part of my identity. I've always loved art. I love to paint. I love to draw [00:04:00] since I was a child.

and it was something people noticed too, and people always encouraged and my parents and friends and family. It was just the thing I was known for. And, in high school. I got a lot of attention for my art, and that was basically the only thing that I got attention for, to be honest. it was just, art.

It was like, that's the art person. I would just, walk around with a big sketchbook and all that. but then, when it became time to think of careers in university, there was a bit of a shift, because even though I took, A Level Art, and my teacher, she was amazing, she inspired me, and she wanted me to go to a top art school, and she, gave me the most amazing reference letter, and all that, and I wanted to do that, but at the same time, my parents, they never said, no, don't do that, but they said it was a bit riskier and they encouraged it to be more like a hobby.

but I definitely, I, don't want to blame them because they never, said I wasn't allowed to. It was [00:05:00] just more like what they encouraged. and My personality, I've always been the kind of person that just plays it safe, and also wants to please everybody. at the end, I thought I should just be, take the most, secure route.

And not only did I think, okay, I'm going to pursue architecture, because that seems like a creative career. That's a little more financially viable. but also I decided to go to Toronto cause that's where my sister was and I had some relatives there. So I just kind of like made my decisions based on that and nothing to do with creativity or anything like that.  

even though I did get into some art schools But anyways, at the end of the day, so I decided to go to the University of Toronto because it gave me the best scholarship, and it seemed like the best university, so I did that, and then within my first year, I wasn't really happy,I was taking a bunch of random courses, to prepare to enter the architecture program.

And because I took A level art, they didn't allow [00:06:00] me to study art in my first year at art courses. Cause they're like, Oh, you already have the credits for that. So I was, missing art. And at the same time, coincidentally, I met, someone that, she wanted to do architecture as well, but she was contemplating switching to the University of Waterloo.

and at the time I didn't even know about it because I was new to Canada. and long story short, we both ended up transferring to Waterloo to do architecture. because after doing some research and investigation, we found that their program way more hands on and studio focused and less about sitting in a lecture hall.

and I thought, okay, that seems like more me, more creative.I still stayed in architecture, and I finished a whole program, which was like five years long, including co op term. And then I also did master's after that, so it took me a really long time to, switch to art. I was in architecture for a long time, but by the time I was doing the graduate [00:07:00] program, the master's program, it was a lot more independent, so you could basically pick any subject, as long as you could tie it back to architecture.

And so at that point in time, I was really missing art, missing this sort of side of me that I had suppressed for a really long time. Like I did enjoy a lot of aspects of architecture and design, but I didn't feel like it was playing to my strengths.I started with a theme of color.

and color and architecture and the surfaces of architecture, the use of paint and how that can transform architecture. And in so doing all of that research, I discovered murals and public art and street art, and I got really obsessed with it. So in a weird way, architecture actually brought me to murals by bridging my love of art and architecture.

and that's what my thesis was all about. And. Afterwards, I graduated, I was fine, [00:08:00] went to go work for an architecture firm for a couple years, and then, the thing is, while I was still a student, I painted my first mural. And the way I did that was, I basically saw a wall and I found out who owned it and I reached out to him and I said, Hey, can I paint a mural in your building?

I had no portfolio or experience doing that, but luckily he was really, enthusiastic about the idea and he even covered my paint costs.and so what happened was the reason I mentioned it is because even though after graduating, I was working as an architectural designer, that same building owner had another building.

that he hired me to paint, properly. So I would go and do that on the weekends. And then, as an interior, I was working a lot of interior designs like for restaurants and stuff. And one of my repeat clients at the firm I worked at wanted me to paint murals in the spaces that I designed.

So I started basically over the [00:09:00] course of a few years painted maybe five or so murals in my spare time, just on the weekends. Coincidentally, my relationship with my work was also changing. I was starting to work more and more with a different, had a different boss that I was working with.

and then the types of projects I was taking on were less in line with my interests. when it came to architecture, I always enjoyed thinking of public spaces more than fancy houses. It was just more of my interest because I felt there was more room to be creative and think about how people experience the space.

And see a lot of overlap there with my love of murals and public spaces. But when I started having to work on these mansions for the uber rich in LA. I don't know. I just wasn't, it felt like I was just killing my soul. I don't know. And then, at the same time, so there's the work I was doing, the person I was working with.

And then I would see that the firm I [00:10:00] worked for would hire artists to do,art commissions and murals in some of their buildings. And I realized I was getting so jealous of this guy that I would see come in and I was like,I could do what he's doing. I know it sounds bad, but I felt like I could do what he was doing better.

 and I realized, am I in the wrong place? I feel, I'm grateful to have this job, but still didn't have the courage. I felt like I shouldn't take this risk. this is like a good career, And, so I still stuck with it until my stress levels started becoming so intense that I developed, really bad acid reflux.

So I was just constantly, having high acidity to the point that I had to take medication for it every day just to not be in pain. And then one evening I was working late, and, I started having stomach pain. I just assumed it was that. So I ignored it. And it got worse and worse and [00:11:00] worse to the point where at home, like I couldn't even move.

And, and my husband was just like, that's it. We're going to the hospital. I'm like, no, they're just going to make me wait. He's nope, we're going. And it turned out my appendix had ruptured. And, It was a good thing I was there because we need to operate. had left it so long that could have been dangerous.

And then I took that as a sign that, Okay, you know what? Like maybe this is the result of so much stress. I need to leave this job. 

Radim Malinic: what an answer full of packed of little nuggets of how your life has taken you to where you are today. I'm going to take you still back because you talk about being excited about public art and being excited about the bits that are not for the rich, obviously more for the soul and creating sort of pieces that people can fall in love with.

you mentioned that you moved to Canada to study. Where did you move from and how did your upbringing potentially inspire what you do now? 

Stephanie Boutari: Yeah, so I grew up in Bahrain. It's in the Middle East, near Saudi Arabia, to those of you who [00:12:00] don't know, because it's a very small country. and I grew up there as an expat.

My family's from Egypt. And, like a lot of other expats, we would go to either a British school or an American school was what most expats did too, if they wanted to, go to English speaking school. And my parents always prioritized that we would speak English really well. and then after graduation, a lot of people, most of us expats, would go back to our either original country, like a lot of my schoolmates were from the UK, or just other countries for their university education, and sometimes they'd go back to Bahrain, but that's not to say that no one stayed, but most people left because there was just much fewer options for education after high school in Bahrain.

It's just a very small country. So the plan was always that we would study abroad. and also my family were applying to move to Canada as well.and my [00:13:00] sister was already in Canada.but at the time I was considering the UK, Canada and the States, but Canada was just the most affordable in the end.

Radim Malinic: You had Stephanie walking around with your sort of big portfolio, and you had RT1. What were you drawing? What was your first explorations? Like how, we get lots of stories of people like, we draw and some of us take it further, some of us not. Some people who are creative now didn't consider themselves creative the first place.

Same. With your identity as a creative person, a creative child, what was your exploration? what did make you move? where did the creativity come from? 

Stephanie Boutari: honestly, just everything. I was just excited by everything. and we would be given themes So we explored all kinds of things in school, in the art program.

Figures, buildings, architecture. I even did this one project where it was all really abstract, almost like sculptural work inspired by planets and [00:14:00] the sort of texture of the moon. And yeah, just, portraits. I dabbled in everything. nature, florals, yeah, you name it. and I think one of my most favorite projects that I did in high school was when I was looking at, the way You're, you perceive the painting like playing with depth and optical illusions in a way.

And I even created a body of work where you needed to look at it with those glasses with the red and blue and how that would change. I don't know, I was just always fascinated by that.   

Radim Malinic: This is interesting. I think I'm tracing your style over the work that you're doing now to these explorations, because you're talking about death and illusion and that kind of stuff, textures, moon, all of that stuff.

I think this is where we're making the connection between, the color, the textures, the architecture, I think this is where I'm starting to unpick the line that there's potentially been there all along, especially. I'm trying to see it now, but, You're not the first person who got [00:15:00] into architecture because it was seen as a safer choice.

you've heard the episode with, illustrator called Murugiah and he followed the same path. he also ended up being an artist because him being an architect, you made him equally ill. I don't think there was a burst appendix, somewhere along the way, but there was a burnout. And I think it's interesting because.

I've got, especially on this series, the recurring theme of people going okay, my parents allowed me to do anything and I've chosen business. And there's the people who go Oh, my parents didn't necessarily think that being an artist is the most viable choice. So I did something really sensible only to become an artist anyway.

this is becoming really the theme of these series, but. When you were doing the stuff, when you printed, you did your five murals as you were studying, and then you asked the sort of owner of this wall or this building, Hey, can I do your mural?

Or can I do a mural on this wall? How did you pitch it? Like, how did you come across that? how do you knock on someone's door? Hey, by the way, I think your wall needs a mural. is there prevalence of more public art or murals in [00:16:00] Canada more than anywhere else? appreciate it's sometimes hard to see if it's all around you.

take me back to how do you knock on the door and say, can I paint your ball, please? 

Stephanie Boutari: Toronto and Montreal have a lot of murals for sure. They have a good street art scene, but where I was, for university, definitely not. and most, of these smaller towns and cities don't have, now it's becoming more and more, it's growing for sure, but at the time, definitely not.

There's, and some towns have really strict rules about the type of art they want as a mural. Like it has to be historical and heritage colors. and in the area, like I was in Cambridge, lot of these towns here have these kind of bleak industrial buildings, where it's just, actually, so a classmate of mine, he's a developer now, but we had this fake business.

Called bleak solutions. So it was this thing where we'd identify a building that was so craply designed and we would imagine, oh, that could [00:17:00] use a mural or a color or some kind of revitalization for its bleakness. So we called it bleak solutions, but basically, so that was like a drive.

So this building that I saw, I was right across from the School of Architecture and it just looked like this concrete wall. It just looked so boring. And that was like the first thing you see when you approach the area to park. And it was just,and it would get tagged sometimes. So I felt like the way I, suggested the idea, it was in his benefit.

Like he'd be getting essentially free art and beautification and it would deter. graffiti, vandalism, usually. sometimes they'll tag stuff, but usually most people won't tag artwork. They'll just tag advertising or something. So he saw that as a benefit to him, and I did show him my portfolio of just regular paintings on campus that I did in high school, so he could tell that I had [00:18:00] some abilities.

but he did know that I've never done a mural and I'd never used spray paint. so it was definitely a learning curve, but he was very supportive. and I'm very grateful for that becausesome clients like that I've had since then, it's been a while, I can't, not a lot of them have that kind of personality.

Radim Malinic: Do you remember how it made you feel that you were doing the thing that was potentially very liberating from, architecture itself? 

Stephanie Boutari: I felt very scared because. I was not only trying to do something for the first time in front of everyone, so it wasn't like I could just, look like an idiot in my own private studio.

and not just in front of the public, but in front of all my peers, because the School of Architecture was right there. So all the students and teachers would pass by and see me doing this. And so I felt yeah, very nervous, like I was on stage kind of [00:19:00] feeling. But, It's once you're in it though, you just have to keep going and pushing through so that I was just very, very motivated.

if it weren't for that drive and motivation, I would have. completely crumbled with the pressure. 

Radim Malinic: I'm loving it. I'm loving it. like how to make yourself uncomfortable in front of everyone, especially by your own request, I think, or by your own decision. I think that's, pretty fantastic because when you look back, Whatever the feelings you were going through around the cocktail of emotions and, I mean it's, that's a super brave thing to do.

okay, I'm gonna ask this person, can I do a mural in front of all, everyone who knows me, , just more or less that's where I think careers are made, like when you think about it, there's,we live in a, now in a world of impatience, like there's full of noise and we've lost the innocence.

And I think having this kind of thing,you taking your time, you're growing it, you're doing it bit by bit. And, Yeah, I think that's a super, super interesting point. I think that you've told me about, yeah, there's no way back really. 

You painted a mural outside a school of architecture. Everyone can [00:20:00] see it. Where does it take you next?

Stephanie Boutari: Yes, soactually I was doing it as part of my thesis. It was like a sort of exploration So I did document it and I had a plaque go up with my name and all that And then I also had a gallery exhibit with other paintings that was like, it was connected to.

So that was very nerve wracking, but I felt a lot of support from my professors and stuff, which I was worried about because it was a very rebellious approach to the architecture. the way our program was focusing on paint and color was just not a typical thing people would do.

And I was worried people would find it, but that wasn't the case and they, took what I did seriously and I did a lot of research to support it. So that worked out well. and then that the owner of the building, as I said, had reached out to me later and, a developer had [00:21:00] also in the area seen it and hired me.

So I actually, it just naturally picked up. And every mural would just lead to another mural, which was really fortunate. I guess that's one nice thing about doing a mural, especially the more eyes that get to see it, it advertises itself in a way. So someone will see it and be like, Oh, I saw that. And if you put your name, I don't always remember to put my name, but yeah.

so that was really actually how the inquiry started coming in because Of one than the other. And that would happen while I was in the architecture job. And when I started getting more inquiries from people, having seen the murals that I did, it did give me a bit of courage also to leave architecture.

although I'll admit in the back of my mind, I still thought of architecture as a safety net. I thought, if this doesn't work out. I have a degree, I have experience. I can always just go back to architecture. 

Radim Malinic: I think we can be [00:22:00] all thankful that you didn't go back because obviously you've been created an amazing way ever since, but I think that's down because you close one door and you're hoping really, shoot up, you hoping that it's going to work out, should I left that door ajar?

is there some way back? But I think we, everyone who's done a similar thing to you has learned that going forward, being focused and actually. doubling down on your decision that actually makes you feel good, is the way to do it. Because like your stand with architecture with a raptured appendix wasn't exactly the one that you wanted to repeat it.

So as you were telling me about the first mural and how it snowballed, it's one of the most amazing things because it's, there. like in the world of digital, Portfolios, you can scroll over a hundred images in a minute.

You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Done, done, done, done, done. But if, you're driving past something and if if you build up a relationship with a piece and you go, Oh, you know what? Yeah, no, it clicks because sometimes like the perception creativity. Some people get it straight away. Some people fall in love with stuff straight away.

And some people get it in six months or in a year, Oh, [00:23:00] now we need that solution now. So it's great to hear like how that all worked. what I want to know next, because I'm curious and nosy, is the development of your style, because you've got very sort of geometric style, multicolored, Yeah.

And there was the reason why I was asking like, what was the sort of early influences? Like where did it come from? Is it rooted in something specific or is it in a place like Waterloo and Kitchener, did you get to see lots of other murals? did you get inspired by other people or was it self driven sort of signature style?

How did your work develop? 

Stephanie Boutari: When I started, I did not see any other murals around me. The inspiration I had was from researching online and from a trip to New York. but around me locally, I didn't see much art at all.in terms of the style, it was definitely at the time driven by these sort of architectural ideas.

So that's how the geometry [00:24:00] started because I was basically trying to argue is a material of architecture. It's not just the concrete blocks or the steel studs, the surface has a big impact, on everything to do with the building's identity and how you experience. And so I was using this 2D surface, the thin film of paint to create a 3D effect.

That was like my approach. So I definitely,You know, I would use these kind of geometric shapes and shadows and stuff to play with that effect and challenge how you would perceive a material. So that's how it started, 

Like if I started art more conceptually, say, oh, I really love painting fish or I like painting flowers for whatever reason, and then I bring it to murals, it's just a matter of scaling it to suit the site, whereas for me, it was almost like I was thinking of it as an architectural design.

And so sometimes even when I'm coming up [00:25:00] with artwork that had been given a specific theme, I'm still thinking of it as part of the architecture. And then if I'm not given a theme, I tend to go more abstract, because I, think of it as part of the building, but the thing is, I don't know, I will admit, I'm at a weird crossroads in terms of figuring out my style because, doing this now for seven years or so, I've had, some bigger clients and, a lot of more commercial interests.

So the style and the art has definitely swayed according to who it's for. So it's not always necessarily, the same style or, yeah,I don't know where I sit. Like sometimes I wonder, am I a street artist or am I a fine artist? like, There's like the gallery world, and then there's the more graphic design commercial world.

Yeah, it's tricky. 

Radim Malinic: Let me see. So I've got a question for you. So you mentioned clients and murals, and obviously something that permanent or semi [00:26:00] permanent as a mural on the wall, is obviously is there for longer than let's say advertising campaign on social media. So how much of an input or how much of a planning goes into such piece?

What rounds of revisions, like mood boarding, planning, thinking, freedom and limitation. Like, how does this work? Because I guess people have got their ideas. How do you navigate it? 

Stephanie Boutari: I always start off by keeping things loose and sketchy. don't want to get married to an idea that they'll hate.

But also just getting a good design brief in the beginning is key. is a big part of that. but I generally, I don't do projects where they prescribe too much. they're just going to say, we want you to do this and this and this, it's just not for me. I need to feel like I design all of my work.

and I need to feel like I have some creative freedom, but I'll definitely work with certain parameters. and I keep in mind their brand, if it's say an office, or certain themes.and [00:27:00] then in terms of the work that goes into it, it's just in stages. So I give them sort of preliminary ideas and I get their feedback and what direction they like, or they like the sort of mood board I'm creating.

Then I prepare first drafts. Usually I go up to two to three drafts, refining the concept until, once it's approved, then there's a whole other bunch of work, which is preparing to translate that. selecting the paints and all that. 

Radim Malinic: So you mentioned a design brief. I'm curious who does normally commission you and how do they prepare a design brief and how much of that design brief in the end changes?

Like how, because obviously you said you like, to keep it loose and you don't like to be told to do like exactly how they should be when I'm doing it because you, in a true way, you're not a designer per se, you're a more artist because obviously if it needs to be your way, that's signature style coming through.

But, How does that initial process go? Like how much of a deviation from their first initial idea to the final [00:28:00] piece often happens, or is it, quite close to the brief? 

Stephanie Boutari: I do want to make the client happy and I involve them in their feedback in the process. And it often makes for a better artwork.

I think, I don't mean to just. be like my way or the highway, but in terms of brief. I've had very different clients, like for example, a small business owner or, like a cafe or a restaurant or an office, where say it's an insurance company, like they're more corporates, they'll have a different type of brief where say there's more stuff about their company or their brand that they would incorporated, versus like the cafe that I just thought of.

They just wanted something colorful, and then oftentimes I get hired by interior designers and architects. So I do need to consider the design of their building that they're designing to make sure it works well with that.but in all those cases, or say a bigger client like Starbucks, [00:29:00] they said, Oh, we want it to be botanical, but that's the extent, like they didn't say, Oh, and to include coffee plants in it somehow, but they didn't say has to be exactly like this way or that way, and that's like the extent of the brief.

so I'm happy to work with those kind of guidelines. And then when I get feedback like, oh, could you make tone down the colors or could you make it brighter or things like that? Or could you maybe add this in? That's fine. yeah. And usually, and sometimes they'll come up with something that I wouldn't have thought of.

And, It can really enhance the work. 

Radim Malinic: How much of your voice do you use in a creative process?

do you interject? Because you say you want to keep them happy, which we always sometimes try, keep them happy, which is sometimes a good idea. but how much of a verbal discussion is there behind? Because I guess you've got your portfolio, your signature style, and,it varies.

It's not just, the lines and geometrical style, but. The opening conversation, [00:30:00] do they come with references of your work or does it come from a point of curiosity when they say, is there sometimes an open brief to actually think, what can we do with this? So I'm curious when someone realizes we need a mural and we need you.

How does it work? 

Stephanie Boutari: it really varies. and there have been situations where I'm just given, it's like carte blanche or, just do what you think and I love that. So it really depends on who the client is. 

it's through referral or word of mouth, or they've seen a specific work or they look me up and they like something on my website, which actually sometimes isn't the case.

to my favor because like earlier on I definitely was less selective with the work I take on and I didn't have as much of a signature style. so I did a really big variety of styles and, I would just show it all on my website and then someone would see, Oh, I liked what you did in this restaurant.

Can you do that here? And I'm like, Oh no, I don't want to do that again. So I've removed that from my [00:31:00] portfolio. There was just so many things in my mind. I'm trying to remember. 

Radim Malinic: Mural is semi permanent, like you can always paint over it if you don't like it.

But from experience, especially architecture, like is their level of anxiety or are people excited about their mural? are they like, this needs to be right or anything goes? 

Stephanie Boutari: generally they're all very excited.usually the most stressful thing is timeline. and schedule, like scheduling availability and all that.

and also this different perceptions of the longevity. So I do sometimes have to reiterate that it's still paint at the end of the day. And even if I'm using good quality, it does have lifetime.I actually remembered something I wanted to say to your previous question. And it ties into this question to do with the anxiety, and how far I bend myself to meet the clients.

or what my voice is, how strong my voice is. So generally, I think I always try to be as [00:32:00] accommodating as possible, but I'm never ever going to do something that I don't want to, like I wouldn't stand by. Like I said, I don't support creatively, if I'm going to be ashamed of this,I can't do that.

I remember there was a client, they wanted something geometric and math inspired, it was actually for the university, and it was going really well and they were really happy with the design. but then very late in the game, an idea was thrown in about putting people in.

And I just felt like it wouldn't fit at all with what I had done or the context. I found a way to very politely, from a design point of view, why I don't think it would work. And they totally agreed in the end. So I think, because also when they're hiring you to do art or designer, that's what they're hiring you to do.

if you don't use your knowledge and expertise to an extent, like that, you're not really doing your job. I 

Radim Malinic: think sometimes there's a conversation like, why are you fighting [00:33:00] for this? Like, why do you really care? Like, why'd you do this? And I'm like, because there's a good chance we can keep this good.

And we can, there's a good chance we can muck it up. I think that's a chance. But you mentioned timeline.I've spoken to Gemma O'Brien a few months ago and, she's known to do her work and she uses other people sometimes, to do. some of the work, whereas you do most of your work yourself.

Stephanie Boutari: Yes. Although recently I've hired more people. 

Radim Malinic: Ah, good. Because yeah, cause I know from you that, it can be quite strenuous work because it doesn't appear at first, right? You don't always think about how much time it can take to paint a mural.

So let's talk about time, like time and the headspace that once you get to. cross that line, you got your design signed off. Okay. I think that's when the real work starts, right? So how long does it take to paint a mural and how physically challenging is it? 

Stephanie Boutari: it always takes longer than I think it's going to take.

And you'd think I'd be better at this by now, [00:34:00] but nope. I seem to not remember certain factors that affect time, like being tired or needing to take a break or eat and things like that. but generally, It, obviously it depends on the size, but I'd say two weeks, for a mural. So if it's a massive mural and it's outdoors, it's going to be longer because I have to factor in interruptions, weather, or sometimes construction.

And if it's just a really small wall inside an office, Like that could be much shorter, that could be a week or a few days even. 

Radim Malinic: you're painting murals in Canada. might see where I'll go with this next. Do you paint in winter? 

Stephanie Boutari: inside. I do lot of interior murals. 

Radim Malinic: Okay, but after thinking about it, outside work, I guess that's impossible, at what point does the paint stop sticking to the wall, at what sort of temperature?

Stephanie Boutari: with spray paint, you could [00:35:00] use it colder temps than, latex or acrylic paints. I actually have a friend, he'll paint even when it's snowing outside, but for me, the problem there is my comfort level. I usually don't paint outside after November. It gets too cold. That makes 

Radim Malinic: sense. How do you keep yourself going?

Do you, is it a meditative state? can you focus on the work? Obviously, because it could be helpfully monotonous, assuming that that's what happens, but do you ever get a physical fatigue, but do you get mentally exhausted?

how do you keep yourself going and, What would you listen to? What occupies a headspace? 

Stephanie Boutari: once I get into that kind of flow state, it's really great. And then I can just listen to music or podcasts or actually I like to listen to audio books too. but it usually takes a few days until I'm in that state.

Like when I'm just starting a project, the first. Couple days are very stressful [00:36:00] because I have to adapt to the site and there's always something unexpected that I have to deal with. So I've just learned to accept that now that the first day I'm not going to accomplish anything.

 and usually if there's construction, if it's a construction site, the level of stress and unpredictability worse. and then for some reason last year, so many of the projects I did were in construction sites. So it was just a little much yeah, but when I'm not interrupted by weird construction stuff and when I, know what I'm doing and it's working, I really enjoy the process and I actually forget how physically tired I am.

I'm just tired. lost in it. And it's usually the next morning I wake up and my body's sore. I'm like, Oh, from painting all day, but then I get back into it. It's the same thing. but then after doing a big job, I usually need a week 

Radim Malinic: to recover. And that's an interesting point because what you mentioned, I need a few days to get into a flow state.

 that sounds Like [00:37:00] the time that flow stage needs to sort of bed in, especially on such a long term basis, because pretty much displaying the sort of creative endurance, like there is the time that it takes to bed in, and then it's time to take time to actually enjoy it.

And I think when you describe it like that, waking up the next morning, this is what professional athletes do, endurance athletes, like they run themselves to the ground every day, sleep for five or six hours, wake up, Not really wanting to do it again, but as soon as you get back in the flow, just the mind and the body just takes over and you're like, okay, we're doing this.

So you mentioned a sentence, or you mentioned a phrase, which usually comes with just building an architecture. And so you said it takes longer than expected. And this is what I've learned from the builders. like it always takes longer and it always costs more. So I think, the unpredictability of a physical sort of work, especially outside on building sites and construction sites is related to it.

I think like there's many different elements in this, but. you said earlier that you sometimes get carte blanche and you [00:38:00] enjoy it.tell me about it because it's that kind of thing that we get as creatives at first, you want to have kind of carte blanche, you're going to be let out of the chains, you want to be feeling free, like everything's a possibility, but sometimes it also creates a lot of, paradox of choice.

like you've got too many choices and how do you actually settle on one that is also the one that's accepted? So how does it work in your case? 

Stephanie Boutari: That's very true. And I do love the creativity that can emerge from having specific constraints. But in terms of carte blanche feeling, it's usually because have other ideas that I want to experiment with or that I've started experimenting with.

So whenever I get an opportunity to just do what I want, then I look back at that sketchbook or that list of ideas and I'm like, Oh, maybe I can try this one out here. So I feel like it's an opportunity to test out ideas that didn't necessarily have a [00:39:00] project to go with them.In those ways, like it's been really creatively, helpful.

actually I think during the lockdown was when creatively I did the most experimenting. I haven't done anything since then. I've just been go, go, go.and I feel like running a business made me a little more inhibited creatively. So I'm really looking to get back to just, Doing some work that's just more personally driven because I do feel like that kind of work and experiments will fuel the work I do for clients because it gives me new ideas and I can take that to project.

Radim Malinic: So this is interesting because it could be perceived that, you are being creative almost every day. obviously you're doing the thing that is your business, it's your career, but it's interesting to hear that there's a creative experiments you would like to do because of course, a lot of us had time to do things [00:40:00] differently in lockdown.

and I want to ask the next question about what it was like to do murals in lockdown, but let me take it to the personal experiments. what is it? that you are not doing that you wish you'd be doing right now. 

Stephanie Boutari: So many things, but, I just really want to explore a lot of just visual thing, like ideas, like patterns and color combinations.

And I want to explore some three dimensional aspects.just very specific. ideas that I don't really know how to describe. It's just like visual ideas that I have a sketchbook and drawings that I just want to explore at a bigger scale. 

Radim Malinic: I'm trying to think of it from almost like a music perspective.

do you paint it? in your studio, do you make stuff with spray paints or is it more sketchbook based or do you procreate stuff? Like how does your sort of ideation work? because obviously your output is so physical and so huge in most cases, like how would you do that sort of explorative stage, especially for the personal satisfaction?

Stephanie Boutari: Lately haven't had, for [00:41:00] the last year or so, I haven't had access to a studio. So it's been very, Just small sketchbook based, because I'm just working from home. But I recently just got a new studio space. I still haven't finished setting it up, but I'm very excited to get back to being more messy and expressive with my experiments.

but back when I did have access to a studio, yeah, I would do a bit of both, like drawing, sketching, also digitally on my iPad. and then with a lot of scrap materials, because the space I used to work out of was also a workshop, it was shared. and they would have scrap materials all the time, so I would take that and just paint on it and wouldn't be too precious about it, afraid of wasting an expensive canvas.

yeah. Yeah. And that kind of thing. And I'd like to explore other mediums too, actually, like textiles has been on my list of things to explore. 

Radim Malinic: Because, you've doubled into creating products, like you applied your sort of large scale thinking into small products. [00:42:00] What did that feel like?

is it something that works in tandem or did you feel like it wasn't big enough, as a medium to explore? 

Stephanie Boutari: I felt like it was a nice outlet for a different part of my creativity that just needed to be released for lack of a better way to describe that. I really enjoyed it, but I just didn't know how to manage my time between that.

Like I just overbooked myself with client work that I just wasn't able to dedicate enough time to the side hustle of doing my products. So I, paused it for a while, but I do want to resume it.I've been itching to, yeah. 

Radim Malinic: Sounds like something like there's an experiment for the new studio. you put quite a lot of work in your social media presence, especially on Instagram.

I guess we've been documenting your work, does get people to actually see and appreciate how much work goes into it, right? One of my friends, Craig Black, is a famous sort of acrylic fusion artist. And I think he spends a [00:43:00] huge budgets on having people filming and stuff, like actually documenting how the work is done, because it explains to people what he does.

How much of a factor is a content creation when you're making the mural? do you get somebody from the building side or from the construction side to help you film it? Or do you have friends like doing this with, or how do you create content? 

Stephanie Boutari: I need to have a better strategic approach to it, to be honest.

because oftentimes I'm just so caught up in getting the work done. that I just don't have time to even document myself or I just take photos afterwards. but when I do have the luxury of,I've planned. my time. I'm actually like, have the energy to do this. I'll consider things like what kind of video I want to make, cause it depends really on the scale how the angle, which you can view it and all that.

But, most of the time, I just, I'm the one documenting myself. I'll just take clips [00:44:00] or I'll leave my camera on a stand. in the past, I have, a couple of times hired someone to video me and put together a video and that was cool. And I'd like to do more of that for sure. It just requires planning in advance because you have to book them and so many times I'm just, time management is definitely my biggest area of stuff that I need to improve on and just like always just in a hurry.

So yeah, that's the challenge. And then in terms of Instagram, also I'm a little bit inconsistent, but I do find that when I do take the time to post, I get a lot of good engagement. And, especially early on, I used to think Oh, a number of followers. That was like the metric I would measure my success.

But I realized no, not really. Cause that's just one metric. It's like how people feel about your art. You can't see that from a number. but when people reach out to you and people give you positive feedback, that is [00:45:00] so much more important, I think. in that sense, Instagram is being great as a way to be a part of my community here and connect with other creatives too.

Radim Malinic: 

What I should have asked you earlier is like, how would you transfer your pieces that are, let's say made in, on an iPad? Do do you have a projector?

Radim Malinic: or how do you map out a big mural on a big building? Like, how does that work? Like what's the secret? What's the technique? 

Stephanie Boutari: There's a few different ones. I do have a projector, but I don't usually use it for the bigger murals because It would be good for maybe a 10 by 10 foot wall at most.

and if it's like very detailed or, I recently did a canvas that needed to be, it was very detailed and symmetrical. So I actually use a projector for that, but usually I, will just use, measurements. If, say, if it's a geometric or abstract mural, I'll have reference points, so I'll mark points where I know, a line starts or something like that, or I'll create a [00:46:00] grid.

either using, sometimes there's a grid existing, so there's the concrete blocks for the mortar of the bricks, and so that will be my guide, and I superimpose my image on that digitally, and that's my map that I look at, and then you can do also like a doodle grid, so if there isn't really, any kind of lines, and it's a very plain looking wall, You can just make your own grid with random doodles, take a photo of it, and then superimpose your artwork, and then have that, and then you go back and then you know how to line everything up with that.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's all about creating reference points. 

Radim Malinic: It definitely does. And I think the more you talk about it, like the more comes back to actually numbers and actual sort of reasons where the things should be, because just like Murugai told me,he knows, finds himself like pitching on projects or creating projects where, he's involve, especially public art, like involves a lot of architectural [00:47:00] knowledge about materials, numbers, projections, calculations, that kind of stuff.

And what you're describing is still very much in touch with architecture, like the way you studied that logic, because you said, like using the 2D world for like a 3D effect. us back what you were describing about depth and illusions, where you were drawing this as a child.

So how did you, and I guess we're talking about a process, like much of a Inspiration do you get from the building? How much of inspiration do you get from the sort of surroundings? And what does it entail? we talked about car blinds and we talked about other ways to do it.

And sometimes there's a brief, but when you look at it, let's say from different perspectives, from different sides of the street or different views, how much of that goes through your mind to make sure that it it looks good from every side? 

Stephanie Boutari: That's definitely a big factor that I consider.

the context, the architectural features, and sometimes they'll actually [00:48:00] inspire aspects of the design. I'm thinking of one that was inside a building, and a lot of the surrounding features influenced the design. So there were these circular hanging lights, there was this, corrugated kind of pattern, and I brought those lines and shapes into the mural.

sometimes the influence is more color based. Or, say there's an architectural feature that I want to hide, or that I want to draw attention to, that will affect the composition as well, or Actually, there's one where the mural was on a wall with three big windows right in the middle of the wall, but I just used those windows as part of the composition, so they're integrated, or one where they wanted me to write the name of the town in big letters, in the town of St. Jacob's, but there was a window that was awkwardly placed, but I found a way to integrate the window into the, to the lettering, so things like [00:49:00] that. And then sometimes if it's a bit more complex, if it's multiple walls, or it's, hallways, and it's not just straightforward canvas, I'll actually model it.

On the computer. I'm used to doing 3D models from architecture, so actually helps me visualize, because I'll take my drawing and then I'll put it in the model and then walk around it and see. When you look at it from different angles, what it look like. 

Radim Malinic: Let me ask a maybe slightly uncomfortable question.

did you ever paint a mural? And someone said, actually, we don't like it. . Did it ever happen? 

Stephanie Boutari: No. But one time they just asked me to change the color of one, like small piece. They were like, oh, when you're rendering it looked a bit lighter. or darker, I can't even remember.

But yeah, I know it was a quick fix. 

Radim Malinic: very happy to hear that because, you always find yourself as a creative going, through all of the checkpoints and then go yeah, no, we don't like it. I'm like, where have you been for the last three months, five months, [00:50:00] but happens, Yeah. obviously if you're painting on the wall, it stays on the wall, so I was just trying to check, because sometimes people got their opinions and there's opinions from clients and there's opinions from passerbys.I'm getting the sense of where you've been and where you're heading.

what you're excited about the future of your career, obviously, you're going to do the experiments in your new studio, but do you have a sort of long term plan, like how you see yourself, how you see your work in, future, in the world? 

Stephanie Boutari: I don't have a specific long term plan.

I find it difficult to plan more than a few months ahead. But, I do have dreams of certain projects that I'd like to do sometime. Like I'd like to do a really big wall, like multi story building. That's always been a dream of mine. I'd love to participate in a mural street art festival.and also just do a little more in the kind of art gallery world, do some shows and self driven projects.

So I'm taking steps to [00:51:00] try to, make those things happen. And also I'd like to travel for artwork. I've never done any project outside of Southern Ontario. So that would be. a dream to just, another country or even,Quebec or something. I don't know, D. C. 

Radim Malinic: if you made a career out of making murals in Southern Ontario, I think there's a lot of spaces for you to explore.

But I that sort of neatly brings me onto one of the points, from earlier, because how much do you think you've changed from the person that has, reached out to a building owner, ask him to do a mural. And obviously now you've got your wealth of experience, you're, a different artist now.

How, yeah, how do you see that? different do you feel now to, the person before? 

Stephanie Boutari: in a way I'm like somehow both more brave and less brave. because in the beginning I think I was more fearless in the way that I had [00:52:00] nothing to lose and no one really knew me as this artist.

but now that I've just been doing this properly, I'm an artist and I've developed a reputation. There is that kind of fear sometimes that still gets the better of me or anxiousness what if I'm not getting better?

Or what if this project isn't as good as the last one. And some ways, I think I'm in my head a little more, but I do feel like I'm more confident.and at the same time, I know I'm contradicting myself, but more brave in the sense that, I'm better at putting my foot down and I'm better at going for things that are outside of my comfort zone.

Like I still will do that. And, also a little better at saying no to things that they don't align with where I want to take my career.Yeah, it's like a mixture of things. I 

Radim Malinic: think when you describe it, it's just a natural progress of how we are as humans because, to learn how to say no, I [00:53:00] think it's, one part of bravery.

when you look at the anatomy of opportunity, sometimes saying no is, better than saying yes, because you can have a bad yes and you can have a good no. So I think, that's sometimes better, but I think, yeah, your work looks like someone who is. comfortable in their own skin, creating work that is admired and it's colorful and it's joyful.

And I think, the people of Southern Ontario have got a jewel in the crown. And I think, yeah, I'd love to see where it takes you because you're doing fantastic work and, thank you for sharing your story with me. It's been marvelous. 

Stephanie Boutari: Thank you so much.  

Radim Malinic: Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Mackay [00:54:00] from Seven Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode.