On cultural identity, creative belonging and togetherness - Johanna Roca

"I feel togetherness is inevitable. From a philosophical standpoint, we're more connected than ever, despite the imaginary frontiers that exist." - Johanna Roca

Jo Roca shares her transformative journey from Colombia to global creative leadership, discussing how leaving home at 16 shaped her perspective on identity, belonging, and creativity. 

She reveals her struggles with cultural stereotypes, the pressure to assimilate, and her eventual path to self-acceptance. Jo speaks passionately about the need for collaborative approaches in the creative industry, drawing parallels to how nature thrives through interconnection. 

She explores the ethics of AI in design, describes developing ethical frameworks for creative work, and emphasizes the importance of empathy in both personal relationships and professional projects.

Key Takeaways

• Jo's early experiences as a Colombian abroad taught her empathy through lived experiences that now inform her creative approach.
• Self-acceptance was a gradual process for Jo, catalyzed by motherhood and place-branding work that explored belonging.
• Jo believes "togetherness is inevitable" and sees potential in creative collaboration rather than competition.
• The creative industry should move away from celebrating "lone geniuses" toward recognizing collective contributions.
• Jo advocates for ethical frameworks in AI adoption, balancing innovation with responsibility toward creative communities.
• Personal values can guide professional choices, though Jo acknowledges the privilege in being able to decline certain projects.

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Transcript

Jo Roca: [00:00:00] I feel like AI and ethics is an evolving conversation. AI and law is an evolving conversation. A generative AI particularly is a thing that I use every single day, and I can navigate it better knowing where I stand, where my personal values stand, where those of my company and my team stand, what makes people feel uncomfortable and continue to do that as we, grow closer with this, technologies. 

Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radek Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. [00:01:00] In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

Are you ready?  

My guest today believes in the power of design. She's passionate about creative processes, social engagement, with a commitment to design for a future that includes everyone and leaving the world a better place than we found it. Her creative focus has been on communities delving into dichotomies and social intricacies of [00:02:00] belonging.

Using design for impact and influence on our society and personal lives. In our conversation, we talked about her transformative journey from Columbia to global creative leadership, discussing how leaving home as a teenager shared her perspective on identity, belonging, and creativity. 

 she reveals her struggles with cultural stereotypes, depression to assimilate, and her eventual power to self-acceptance. It's my pleasure to introduce Joe Rocker.  

Radim Malinic: Hey Joe, welcome through the show. How are you doing today? 

Jo Roca: I am very good, thank you. How are you? 

Radim Malinic: I'm super excited to see you. I'm super excited. I, been looking forward to this because I've got your talk at Design Thinkers in Toronto, and it was wonderful. It made me stop, it made me think, and I was like, okay.

We need to talk more. We need to do this session. for those who may have not heard of you, how would you introduce yourself? 

Jo Roca: would [00:03:00] say, my name is Joe, as you just mentioned. I am a Colombian creative director that has been privileged enough to have had a wonderful career in the likes of Paris and London, Sydney, and now living in la.

and I care deeply about many subjects, but if we could talk about place, branding, belonging, women in the creative industry, the ethics of AI and all of these, I think we could probably, talk forever.

Radim Malinic: I think you stand for some really interesting things in this industry, and I think, yeah. let's get into it. so at a younger age of 16, 17, you boarded a plane to south of France and the change has started in your life.

So what was that like to, embark on a mission to travel to Europe and pursue, the career in creativity? 

Jo Roca: I guess it was, looking back, I really dunno how my parents allowed for that trip. if I'm [00:04:00] honest, it wasn't a very well connected world in terms of technology. We didn't have the things that we have today.

And as a mother now, my kids are not going anywhere that age without me being close by. so I guess, testament to my parents, but also to many other parents. We traveled as a group and I think that was the, strength. and we didn't really know what to expect from the world. We, I had a very privileged upbringing in Columbia and I speak English well because my teachers were mainly Canadian teachers.

and we had decided to move to Europe to speak a third language, to learn basically a third language. So to make it really hard is what I'm saying. but little did I know what it was. Like to live through winter, what it's like to have no sun, for a long chunk of your day. what is actually really cold weather?

grew up in a, coal mine, near a coal mine. That's where my dad used to work. [00:05:00] And there was this train that would leave from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM to just make, the runs of the coal to the port and back. And that was the train that I grew up with. I could see the beep, you could see, you could hear the tracks, you could see the smell and understand that train is the passing of time in my town.

And then you land in Paris and you see the likes of the teve and you see the Eurostar and you see these fascinating contraptions. It really was, I dunno, coming to terms with the bigger world that was out there. And at the same time, the insignificance of myself, of the labels I carried inadvertently by being Colombian.

and I think I wouldn't have succeeded had I known all of this. The naivety and the perhaps the youthfulness, was what made me stay. 

Radim Malinic: you find yourself, seeing the dazzling lines of Paris with everything that it comes with and, I would imagine that, for example, of excitement, but then being [00:06:00] seen as the other, being Colombian in such a world.

How did it weigh out? Like how did it feel like, did the naivety push through or was, the reality too strong? 

Jo Roca: Yes. to start off with, we were 10 Colombian kids in Montpelier and only two of us stayed. The rest, went to more comfortable arenas, and I don't blame them. That first year was definitely very, very hard.

it wasn't glamorous, Colombian peso against a Euro wasn't as strong. We also landed, and this is an anecdote that we don't have time to unpack, but we landed in a, halfway house as our first, dwelling. So we have 10 Ians that don't speak French in a halfway house with literally people that are coming out of.

traumatic and are on medicine and on meds. And our experience there was brutal because we didn't have anyone [00:07:00] looking out for us. We couldn't communicate ourselves properly. We didn't know what was French and what was wrong. Like this distinction of it, it being a cultural shock, but also just this is highly inappropriate meant that we'd spend many nights crying and questioning what we had done.

But at the same time, we weren't able to just simply hop on a train back home. And we also didn't wanna burden our families in Columbia who could not do anything about this, in telling them the realities of our lives. So they didn't know this until years later. That all of this had unraveled.

So it was a very hard year. There was definitely no glamor. And I think on the second half of the year was when we started making really lovely friendships that we saw the potential of Europe. I guess. 

Radim Malinic: I mean, I'm literally suddenly thinking 

this doesn't sound fun. but would you say that experience gave you a foundation for what was to come in your life?

[00:08:00] Obviously like being almost ever since on the road, obviously working away in different cities and that kind of experience of coming of age in such interesting environment. how would you say that shaped you 

Jo Roca: enormously? I think. If I would've stayed at home, I don't know. It should've, could've would've, but,I think the word empathy lingers around understanding.

I think unfortunately, we understand and we empathize through lived and shared experiences, but most of us don't share those experiences with anyone else. And I, my experiences are my own, but it has taught me to be able to be compassionate, extend that understanding to perhaps places that I wouldn't typically understand.

yeah, that has informed my approach, that has motivated my second part of the career, not necessarily the first, because it's probably fair to say that I didn't want to be another, I didn't want to [00:09:00] be put with the category of immigrants. I wanted to be called an expat. I wanted my. accent to not mark me as different.

I really worked hard on accents. the outfits, just looking at people and how they fit in. That was a full-time job in itself because I didn't wanna stand out and I didn't wanna be labeled Colombian. And yeah, there's a lot of work in that, And maybe maturity as well. that has come with life.

Radim Malinic: before we talk about your journey to self-acceptance, I want actually touch on the fact like how your heritage, your origin.

It's like a global hindrance, isn't it? being Colombian. Unfortunately it, comes with a sort of mainstream unpopular opinions and tags and labels that thinking, can we just give it a break? 

Jo Roca: Yes. It's also not even funny. I, I yet have to hear the first drug [00:10:00] joke. That is funny.

I have never heard a drug joke made to me. Just following an introduction that says I'm Colombian. Insert a drug joke. That has been funny. I have never seen that. It has never made me laugh. And yet I laughed so many times, just, because that's what one does until I stopped laughing and at times I would point it out, I would say how unfunny this was, and other times I would walk away.

It was just a matter of deciding whether this fight was worth having. and I don't think I can blame people for that. I think there's a lot of. collective storytelling that has been made about my country. And we can blame Hollywood for a lot of it, which is why I'm here.

I'm here to solve that problem in a way.but they, we can blame a lot of that, culture, the media, the stories that we read, the stories that we hear on the news. it's remarkable that anyone in the world knows who Pablo [00:11:00] Escobar is. And if you are a big fan of football, you might know who the second Pablo Escobar is.

it really depends on how, but all of those portray an entire country with one single layered story. There is no depth in that story. And. That is wild to me. 

Radim Malinic: I think the issue is that sometimes people are just happy with the urban myths and stories that are just too convenient to carry 

 After all, I guess these people come to this equation with their own anxiety. I think it's that their own unresolved fear and their problems that are coming across as unfunny joke or unhelpful, label. Or how do we create uninformed hysteria in favor of a nonpolitical campaign.

we can go into death of this, but I know that your journey from feeling like the other kind of stopped and you stopped mimicking the accents and you decided Enough is enough. I'll accept who I am. How did that feel? 

Jo Roca: light, it felt light,it [00:12:00] didn't happen one morning that I woke up saying, today I am Colombian.

is a, this is a lot of years in the making of realizing the amount of, Assimilating that I had internalized, and that I was fed up with it. I think it was a combination of many things, becoming a mother for sure. Realizing that I wanted them to dance. I wanted them to eat plates and I wanted them to love, the things I loved.

we also, at that time, I was working out for the people and we were working with a lot of place branding jobs and without really knowing you are working on brands, but brands for communities and for places, and you are not talking about stakeholders. And a board, a C-suite. But you're talking to the stakeholders, which are the people that live there, and understanding what binds them beyond geography.

Because these are very different sort of people that all love their [00:13:00] home. They are people from all sorts of age and political spectrum. And you're having these conversations with people that think very differently to you, that think actually the opposite of you. And there has to have some sort of understanding why they love this place.

And in that, I didn't know this at the time, but I was working personally on that belonging. I'm like, I have left my country. I dunno if I would be back forever to live there. I am almost like accepting, I am a citizen of the world, as cliche as that sounds. But where are my roots and where do I wanna, grow and stay for a little while and.

That search alongside what we were doing with place branding alongside becoming a mother. The all the stars aligned for me to be like, my home can be wherever I am, and I can bring that culture with me and I can teach my kids about it, and I can teach the people I want to teach [00:14:00] about the beauty of Columbia.

And yeah. And I let go of the labels. I'm still letting go by the way, still wear some of them. I, 

Radim Malinic: I, think for most of us, I think it's a life's journey to actually, to work it out. But you mentioned belonging and I think belonging goes in tandem with 

Trying to fit in. And trying to fit in is such a almost forceful thing. Like obviously I need to fit in, obviously I need to mold my personality, mold my expression into sort of be this something that needs to slots into this part. Whereas belonging, once you embrace it, is so effortless.

It's just you know what? This is me. I can only do me, I don't have to change anything about myself. So when you say being a citizen of the world, it just feels you know what the lightness is coming through, it's all feels much, much better.

So, 

 where did the creativity come into your life and how did it start shaping your career and your journey? 

Jo Roca: I would have to thank 

a few influences.

I'd probably say Alda, which is a [00:15:00] cartoon, an argentian, cartoonist called Keno. He would do these incredible drawings with Maal and many others, very political and in small frames. He would just. Destroy an idea or incept an idea. And I thought that was powerful because they would come in like,the strips in the back of newspapers that I would cut and alongside the Garfields and whatnot.

But these were political, these were heavy. And I didn't think being able to simplify an idea and use craft an illustration to convey such idea was even possible. And that as well as, at the time I dunno if you remember, absolutely. Vodka had the most wonderful ads and they would come at the end of my dad's, magazine.

And I remember just seeing at these ads and sometimes particularly one that said, absolute Houdini, and I didn't even know who Houdini was. And then this meant that every week or so when I would get the [00:16:00] ad, I'd go and research and try to find out what this ad made reference to. And again, it was this brilliance of.

In Houdini, there wasn't even a bottle there. So I'm like, someone had, disappeared it by magic. And that's the whole connection with Houdini, right? I love this. And I then went to discover what it was that made you do this as a job. This connecting the dots on many things that I'm passionate about.

So that kind of started, but back then you could only study advertising in Columbia, which was tempting 'cause that's, how I'm getting these things. But it wasn't exactly what I wanted to do per se. And and that was it in marketing. And I knew that there were careers such as design, visual communication outside of the country.

So that's basically my journey, why I had to, leave if I wanted to do this. That being said, I also got a scholarship. For genetical engineering in Canada. So I had, I won the scholarship, it was a half scholarship. [00:17:00] So there maybe is another dimension where Joe didn't pursue design, pursued genetics, and then we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation.

I would be chatting with someone else about research, perhaps. 

Radim Malinic: You never know. We might be still talking about ethics of AI for genetics. 

Jo Roca: absolutely. 

Radim Malinic: Wow. what a wonderful story so far. 

So apart from absolute, back cover adverts, what was the actual piece of graphic design or creativity?

Jo Roca: Absolute, definitely one from Keno, it's a two cartoons. I'm gonna not make it justice, but it's two section cartoon. And the top one is a cleaning lady, cleaning a really fancy living room of someone's house.

And she like, clean, dusting it off. And they have the Picasso painting, the one that's all chaotic, I forget the name, that they have that hanging in their, lounge and she's cleaning. And then the second is she's almost gone and I think the owner of the house is in. But the, chaos of the [00:18:00] painting has become The living room is all chaotic. And I remember first not knowing really about the Picasso painting at the time to what unfolded here, what happened, why did, she do this like What is he trying to say? It really, I remember that just being powerful of in so many ways I must, know what's happening here.

And the class divide that's very present in Latin America of people that help in the house and then people that can afford it. And clearly you have a Picasso hanging, you can afford many things, many housekeepers. So all of this, was really top of mind. And then there's a third piece that, many people dunno this, but Columbia didn't accept Starbucks.

because we have a strong coffee, union and there is one coffee, I would call him a mascot, but he isn't, he's called Juan Bales. He's a represent, he's an actual human being that gets selected to be Juan Bales until he retires. So this person that you see in the flesh that goes to these like PR events.[00:19:00] 

He is the equivalent of a campesino, which is, one of the, farmers that farm the coffee beans in Columbia and he has a donkey called Conta. Anyway, brilliant advertising. I think it might've been Leo Burnett in the States, took these two elements and just did incredible ads, traveling with, Les and Conta in American Airlines in first class announcing.

So you would see him wearing his beautiful hat and the donkey in first class announcing the, arrival of Colombian coffee to American Airlines. There's like quite clever use of what a mascot is really, and when they would retire, this would be a national vote to vote again for the second Mbba list.

It's so powerful, but I didn't even know how you come about. And you do things like this, cartoons that are political, advertising from a Swedish brand. And Colombian coffee that just gets to your soul and that speaks about Colombian in other ways beyond drugs. [00:20:00] So those were my references.

Radim Malinic: what you really mentioned, what I really absolutely love was the, the Picasso painting and the second part of the chaos, because it's almost like an analogy for our lives.

like we have an idea that everything should be serene and there's this view of something else, but. You only can look outside our windows, open a news page and you see like, okay, that is not the idea that we have about our reality, 

especially in a world where we seem to be celebrating, as you say, the sort of lone genius. Like I think we mythically put people in charge. 'cause obviously talking about coffee, Masco, that's the sort of product of the people that's product of the culture and society.

Whereas what we have now, we've got product of capitalism where it been masted by these people who seems to be cherished even though they're not very much on the side of the people. So I. With the creativity now and that sort of rise of, the thing.

where did we go wrong? 

Jo Roca: I don't know. I dunno, [00:21:00] who are we going to blame for this? I dunno about ourselves. first of all an infatuation and an appreciation and a love for lists and indexes and we celebrate it in ways.

the Grammys was, not so long ago and we love celebrating the top 100 and the number one. And I think with that we also like linking that with billionaires and celebrating the most wealthiest man in this earth. We love celebrating awards and recognition more closely to the creative industry.

And I don't say that's bad. I think there has to be recognition for the effort of many, but it usually is one person. And it always strikes me as odd because if I go get an award, I might send someone from the team. It doesn't have to be me being up there. If you see the DNAD entries, sometimes there's 15, 20 [00:22:00] people behind one project.

And that is how it should be. but we are, I don't know, we celebrate this, one person, and that is historical. I think I'm hoping, and I see it more that we are moving towards accepting that the complete opposite is in fact true, but. Historically, the times of, Mad Men, the times of that you lonesome genius, is Yeah, I think about history and I think about names, and names come out and I don't want to give them any discredit, they are remarkable people, but they lived in a time, they benefit from many others in their teams.

And, and sometimes it just gets ignored by history. 

Radim Malinic: So how do you go from, all of your, inspirations, Picassos, absolutes, all of that stuff into the work that you do now?

Jo Roca: that was also. A [00:23:00] few years in the making. I had I would call the best school with Landor. I was a Landor alumni and I stayed there for five years and they were the first five years out of uni. And we can think about Landor, whatever we can think of, right now, but they were, and still are.

it looks very fondly on my years there. They formed me in terms of all the things that perhaps school didn't prepare me for, I understood many things, from like the business side of things. I understood the. Red lines or yeah, even just the lines of projects that people didn't wanna be involved in.

For whatever reason. They had the, Philip Morris account, for instance, and many people did not want to be part of the cigarettes. later working at Interband as well. Gambling was another one that people had, opinions on. And I love the fact that that was a thing that you could say, I'm not going to be part of this project.

And that was respected both under and [00:24:00] Interve allowed you to do that. So I feel like understanding that, understanding the realities and that somehow maybe in a very small way, you were already forming your values and you were already having the, agency to decide. Whether you could be part of those projects or not.

And also fascinating to hear the people that did, the people that didn't mind and understand what it was that motivated and how they were creative in that, in those sectors without any judgment whatsoever. it was just really interesting to find that discomfort on those tensions that exist within a creative team.

And then moving along, having our own company for the people, it meant that we could establish almost like an ethics playground of what,clients we want to, have or, be part of. But also understand that there was quite a big blurry gray area in these conversations. [00:25:00] And, having really hard discussions with the team about which ones did we decide or not.

So again, it hasn't been a day. It's not a day thing that I woke up one day. It has really been 15 years in the making of evolving to who I am. And until very recently we moved to LA and I heard Patagonia speak. one of the, I think it was the chief sustainability officer, but I might have that wrong, where he spoke about Patagonia for Patagonia to really make the difference they want to make in the world, they need to convince other companies, they need to convince the Nikes, they need to convince the Adidas.

Patagonia are insignificant players if they want to change. All the things they want to change. And that for me was maybe perhaps the first seeds of togetherness. It's we need to start working together here. these poly crises that we're facing cannot be achieved alone. And again, we're mixing [00:26:00] back to politics and geopolitical and all of this into our conversation.

But those are the brands we work with. So they have a role to play in the society that we're building. And I can't ignore that as a creative, 

Radim Malinic: There's a lot to unpack. But, I think, it was great to hear that, you had chance to say no to projects you didn't work on, you didn't want to work on Atland and Interbrand. I've never heard of it. I think as someone who used to work in advertising as a freelancer, you can just say yes or no to things.

Slightly more sort of a distance way. But that's good to know because we as creatives, you either start with strong values and you form them as you go. We gotta, sometimes you have to find your values because people pursue creativity because it makes them feel something inside.

It is that really exciting, combustive thing that, oh, what is it? Oh, how do I do use it next? what do I do with it next? Because there's lots of conversations, especially used to be in the past,designers should think better about future.

I'm like. They're just enablers, and the design is, and part of [00:27:00] this big machine. if you were to say yes to Philip Morris or gambling campaign, does it make you a bad person or is it the role of the no agency? Or is it who is to blame? Because it's easy to say, oh, the designer did this, like they're the bad people.

wow, wow. The world runs on money, not on graphic design, 

Jo Roca: but also, again, it shows the privilege. And typically because I have lived almost half of, more than half of my life in the global North equivalent, I know for a fact that I can say no to work and I can back away from work.

And that is a privilege to be able to do And again, I look back at my family, my friends that do, incredible fulfilling jobs and some that don't, but they are jobs and they need to pay rent and they need to. Look after their families and whatnot. So passing judgment is so easy thing to do, but you are right.

yeah. It's something that we need to understand. That's why as I said before I'm the daughter of a person that worked in a coal mine. It does not get more fossil fuel than that. So I understand my place in that and I've come to terms [00:28:00] with it And I have been in very lucky position to be able to say no to work. I understand the luck of that. 

Radim Malinic: I think it, as you said, with the example of Patagonia, like you tried to convince others to do. Better. I think what really amazes me when you see the, finance bros wearing the, Patagonia Les.

I'm like, if it's a bit like Teslas, electric cars bought with, fossil fuel money, it's just bought for the show. not for the show, but, some of them have been bought for that, shall I say? But let's talk about togetherness because how do we inspire change, especially in a world that can feel so inward looking like everyone feels anxious.

we've got America's good new commander in chief having a, pub fight with tariffs and all sorts of things. And it's only been there for a few hours, few days, two minutes too long. But, Yeah. it's a big topic, Joe. I mean we'll see what we can get with this.

But you quite beautifully, used analogy in your talk about, and I'm not gonna pronounce it properly, just like yourself, but Michael [00:29:00] Azi fungi. I think it's just this sort of the way, how the nature works together. the reason why, you know, the things that surround us and have been here much, much sooner than we have been because they work in harmony.

it's, when you think about it, the, animal food chain or the world now, there seems a bit brutal, but it works together. it's connected and it can't work on its own, whereas. We do feel like we can change the world on our own thinking. I can create everything on my own.

And to a certain degree, it's liberating because we have democratized so much information. We have provided so many tools. you can do a lot of things on your own. I need to realize I'm tired, maybe I haven't done a good job and I need help. And in fact, I need to help. I need help of someone to actually speak first because I'm burnt out.

What do I do next? So with the way of connecting and the way of living, like how, with your way of accepting yourself in the world and being on this journey, where did the feeling of designing for togetherness come [00:30:00] from? 

Jo Roca: Hmm. This is definitely a big topic. I love, I'm a big nerd, so I love connecting things that I read on one side with things on the other.

And, I guess I think there's two things. One, I do believe that togetherness is inevitable. I feel that from a philosophical standpoint, now we can unpack that in a little while. but also from a lightweight position, I see other creatives in other fields like film and music, and I see cross colabs between artists in ways that don't under represent each, but actually enhance both styles of music.

Or, you can think of whatever song that you want in your mind, but it's usually mutually beneficial because you have the followings of fans of the other, and then you come up with this extraordinary piece of mixing genres. And I love that in music industry. And I, [00:31:00] really thought, why aren't we doing it in.

The creative world, why aren't we doing it in the world of brands? Why do we compete and pitch against each other when sometimes in projects we would benefit from having, this, close collaboration. And of course there's business decisions and whatnot, but it's such a shame that I see it pan out in art and in music, and we're not yet able to do that, at least in my industry.

And it's something that I would very much like to change or to see it changing in my lifetime. That's one thing from a deeper sense, I do think that, as you mentioned, if we look at evolution and we see. That humans have been here for like a bleep second. We literally have been here for two minutes in this world.

and we try to solve things on our own and whatnot. And we look at the things that have been here longer, [00:32:00] like nature and how they have evolved to coexist for their individual benefits. Let's learn something from that, I feel, and that could be something where many think that AI comes in to be that player of linking us, And. That's why I, went back to it's inevitable. Whether that is AI or not, this is going to be another debate, but it's inevitable because if you think about the infrastructure, like the planetary computation of this world, it's already in fact very connected. The lines that allow you and I to have wifi go under oceans that are cross boundaries, like all of these hypothetical frontiers that exist, names in a map that can change at a whim of one person in power is imaginary, right?

So whether we want it or not, we are more connected than ever. I think the [00:33:00] pandemic, unfortunately, was one realization of how connected we are. So that's what I'm saying. It's inevitable and that can lead to either a dystopian future or a very protopian where we. Accept that that's what it is and take control where we want to take control, in this,merging of many things.

And that's why I'm like, it's inevitable, but it can be something wonderful. 

Radim Malinic: When you talk about nature, makes you think of like how we try to dive at rivers. we reive our rivers and we try to force nature and then the flood happens and the river just goes, you know what?

This is this, you know how I used to go, this is where I'm gonna go next. I'm gonna go back to where I should be. And 'cause we try to force things like to be in some sort of way of our own vision of, okay, this is inconvenient, let's move you. And it feels like with the way we create things.

And sometimes, like there should be better way, as you said, we should really learn from nature, we should learn how, it works in harmony rather than playing to different [00:34:00] teams. Because when you think of it. The progress from, let's say, perspective of a Brexit.

Oh, we are gonna cut off from every side. We're gonna be global players. We're gonna be doing this really, like you're gonna stand on your own and do your own thing. And of course it's just, there's many different reasons why it happened and why it shouldn't have happened and why people voted for it.

Because again, like all of a sudden you give someone other, you give them a little bit of a power and they go yeah, yeah, gonna do something with this. ' cause it was based on ignorance. lots of people just, who decided let's not even think about it. Let's, make a decision.

And I think that's the saying goes, they're like, if you wanna, get a wrong answer, ask everyone. I think this is sometimes what we get. So is it scarcity mindset? is it anxiety? that's the question. But the way you talk about this, you know, about us being connected and actually, hopefully finding the way how we get the best out of.

Connections and, cross pollination and actually sharing ideas and feeling slightly less worried about, who's next to us and what do they do, and how we can do, because I think [00:35:00] when you put people of different, mindsets or different expressions and different political beliefs in the room, most of them will have the same willingness like wishing for the same outcome.

It is just sometimes the narrative is just so confusing. 

Jo Roca: Absolutely. I would say I look into my family. I have a really, really close knit family that have from the very left to the very right, and I don't agree with many of them. And we can have really, really strong WhatsApp threads. It's mainly on WhatsApp conversations about the state of the world and whatnot, especially the politics in Columbia.

But at the end of the day, we can sit down. And have a meal full of love. And I think this happens. This can happen. And I have seen politics tear down families. I have seen that, but I don't want it to tear down mine. And the people that don't think like [00:36:00] me in my family also don't want that. And the ability to be able to debate without necessarily having an objective of changing the other person's perspective, because this is not the goal, but literally to debate should be encouraged.

And it's something quite dangerous with the algorithms only playing your side and really othering someone that doesn't think like you, that's dangerous because that's, how we get into these extremes. But if you think about the people that you love, think about one friend that you really love that doesn't think like you.

has that stopped your friendship? And I don't want it, I don't want anything external to break friendships that I've had for more than 30 years because I know that we are better than that. And I know that there's common ground and commonality. And if in fact there's probably more commonality and more togetherness that links us than the things that separate [00:37:00] us, it's just, we want to be able to debate.

And I say this because I grew up in a Catholic upbringing, so I, things like, politics and religion were never discussed at the table. Things of the women's rights and whatnot were taboo, and I wish there were, I wish they had been because it would've given me the instruments and the tools to be able to have hard conversations with people I love.

So I had to again, live life and learn the hard way and maybe lose a friend or two. And understand that, I wasn't going to change their mind and that I shouldn't either and neither were they. And that, that was fine because we are able to, I was able to change my perspective to learn from the other, to see their point of view and we need more of that.

Radim Malinic: I like your very open opinions, a very open approach to life, because you said we have a meal full of love and I love that. this is just like, when it's all said and done, I think what a fantastic way of actually, bringing it back because I. [00:38:00] The world is changing. World is changing fast.

And now we've got the emergence of ai, not even emergence. It's here, and it's been around for long time, it was called machine learning. And we didn't realize how many steps of daily lives. Actually the AI was already part of it, but now we obviously we've created, especially at the beginning, a bit of a sort of uninformed mass hysteria.

It was like, oh, we can be replaced. there was always a challenge. You could be replaced by either somebody else or something else. Like we are evolving. I think lots of conversation on this podcast other people were about that we crave change and then we are scared of change. like I've only just accomplished this.

What do you mean I have to change everything again? Okay, that's just a constant. So I know that you talk about ethics of ai, right? let's get to the bottom of it's possible. 

Jo Roca: ethics of ai. I. as this kind of evolves, in our industry, we, recently had a really beautiful opportunity to explore that at a MP.

So internally, we had a client that [00:39:00] asked us to using generative AI to create pieces and content for, their brand with the advantage that, of course, generative AI would speed things up, right? And that in itself was already creating friction in our team because it means that we are basically handing over a creative process that usually involves many creatives to be able to solve this brief.

What that did, as well as we approached this brief, we're like, okay. What is legal and what is ethic? What is wrong and what is right? What is the wrong and right thing to do here? And we are positioned, typically brand companies, are positioned to have those conversations with companies because they're in the middle.

We always use, specialists like Typographers and illustrators and whatnot, and we [00:40:00] bring build brand worlds and universes and have that relationship with the client. So we're in a position to know who that will impact the most, including ourselves, but also including all our lovely partners and be able to say, actually, there's a better way to do this.

So we started building an ethical framework to be able to determine. What could we do if briefs like this land? What would we as an entity as a MP do? And it's a yes or no. And if you go, yes, you go yes or no. And if you go, no, it's one of those follow your own journey because that is ethics, it's complicated.

and the laws today at least, the way they're trying to keep up with ai, talk about it from a legal point of view. And I've had experience in the past working in Australia where I have been sat in a room with a bunch of lawyers and a bunch of ethicists and they're debating the approach for something.

And I'm like, this is [00:41:00] exactly what we need for generative AI in the creative field. A sort of guide. this is really a guide to help us navigate. What can be decisions that have, real consequences for people, including ourselves. So that was an unexpected outcome that this brief, meant, and we used it and we're working on it, and it's something that I would very much like to share with the world, to make it better to see if that works for others.

and yeah, I feel like AI and ethics is an evolving conversation. AI and law is an evolving conversation. A generative AI particularly is a thing that I use every single day, and I can navigate it better knowing where I stand, where my personal values stand, where those of my company and my team stand, what makes people feel uncomfortable and [00:42:00] continue to do that as we, grow closer with this, these technologies.

Radim Malinic: Did it speed up the project? You said we were supposed to speed up the, workflow by using ai, but did it speed up the project? 

Jo Roca: we went down the cynic route, so it will perhaps speed up the process at the end, but we wanted to do it in an ethical way, in a way that could not harm anyone in a way that we wouldn't be, training the algorithms with borrowed work.

We wouldn't be training the algorithms to replace. There's also heavily art direction needed to be able to get to where we got to. So there is still very much room for creative input, beyond machine, but it speeds it up significantly. It's a really close collab, that. we managed to get a, as a result.

Radim Malinic: That sounds good. you mentioned you find yourself in the [00:43:00] room with lawyers on one side, an ethicist on the other. what was that situation? I'm curious how does that happen? 

Jo Roca: this was for a superannuation, ethical superannuation in Australia. So superannuations for those that dunno, are like your pensions, your pension funds, and they're called supers in Australia.

And, they are perhaps the best possible way for you to invest in to put your money, what your values are worth. The best possible way is to know where your superannuation, which have a lot of your money, is investing your money in. And people didn't know this, you're just saving your money and retiring and hoping to get it back.

And, what I learned through working with Future Super and Australian Ethical, which are superannuations in Australia with an ethical backbone, was that it is actually very powerful to be able to decide where your money's gonna go and you have different levels of risk and whatnot. But that was the context I [00:44:00] was in a meeting with.

yeah, what is an ethical investment? What is a legal one? of course there's a lot of financial laws that protect, people, but also protect banks. So navigating that is definitely above my pay grade, but I was able to participate in that heated conversation. 

Radim Malinic: Just a standard design job, right?  

Jo Roca: Isn't that what we love about the job though? That you are able to put yourself in positions Where you're like, how did I get here and how and why are people listening to me? I had that recently where I was most certainly not the brightest person in that room These very accomplished people were there, and I did have this, what's it called?

Imposter syndrome. And I know where I stand in life and my accomplishments and I know who I'm not. but I was there and I was like, okay, this is what it feels [00:45:00] to be surrounded by geniuses. 

Radim Malinic: I think that's an interesting work on imposter syndrome because I'm trying to decipher it for my next book, and I just feel like it's a cocktail of wouldbe soon as a sort of, past memories of shame, anxiety, insecurity, because I.

After all of this, it's actually conflicting thoughts. You could be focusing on what's in the room. You could be focusing on the genius speaking, going, yeah, so that's the word. Now, you could be truly mindful, truly present, and you're going like, should I really be here? if you think that you shouldn't be in the room, and there's some really clever people, listen to every single word, I think that's just, the thing.

But yeah, conflicting thoughts, in my opinion. I'm doing a lot of work on that moment. But, yeah, I think we are very privileged from being in a creative positions to actually put yourself in such sometimes uncomfortable positions where you can actually be feeling like you're very much out of a death.

But then we operate in a world of creativity. You've got your lawyers [00:46:00] and your ethicists working in totally different fields, like again, it's a cross pollination where we come together. So Again, does it come with self-acceptance as you say? I know what I've achieved, what I'm doing, but I'm suddenly, I'm feeling like I shouldn't be here.

somebody should be in that room and that's you. And that's exactly the person that should be in the room. So yeah. I think that I've got this analogy with each, I, we've been using quite a lot, especially in my talks, which is about flight. I used to be a nervous flyer.

Okay, let me give you a story. Okay. This is gonna be good. So I used to normally, especially in my early twenties, I would fly somewhere, have fun for a week, fly back, obviously hangover, and be like holding onto my seat, go in the engine. Sound has changed, the engine sound has changed. We are definitely going down.

Definitely going down. Now the plane is tilting, definitely going down, and I'm like literally like feeling nervous. We land, everything's good. And I speak to my friend the next day and I was like. That was a tough one. And he's like, you see,when you feel like you're on the next flight, look around, you look around a plane, and find a businessman who looks like they [00:47:00] fly every week or every day or every month, when they lose their shit, you lose yours. Because until then you are fine. And that kind of, it's an analogy life. not only has that advice changed my sort of flying experience, because you have sometimes anxiety, you just can't suppress it.

So you're like, yeah, I don't feel quite right today. No one's panicking. I don't think I should be panicking. like my mind just wander off somewhere else. And that kind of works in life as well. And creativity, because when you're in a room of geniuses, do you reckon they're panicking?

Eh, they just look around everyone's calm. I should be calm too. Maybe that's what it is. I think that's, like the, thing we should instill like, recently I was flying somewhere and it was like in the middle of a storm, and it was just literally like being on like a merry, like on a rollercoaster.

You're like, no one was panicking. So I wasn't that was the best mark. It was like, you know what? Everyone's fine. Everyone's fine. no one's screaming. and I think when you find yourself like worrying about a situation and then you get into turbulence and people get nervous, you're like, we fine.

What you talking about? You're like, you [00:48:00] try to be like that reassuring, character on a plane. as we are both nervous flyers. I can definitely call myself a nerd because I just hoover in books on weekly basis.

But with everything that we've got and that noise that surrounds us, how liberating is it for you to be able to get to new knowledge as easy as it is now? 

Jo Roca: I'm very disciplined on that regard. I read every day before going to bed. it's my unplugging activity. it isn't something that I brag about because I didn't start reading.

I love reading from an, early age, but I didn't make it a night routine, because of the love of the book, but rather I had insomnia for a few years and books were the only thing that would get my mind to stop thinking about life and instead,maybe drift on something that I kinda had just read.

So it was a nice transition from like reality to [00:49:00] dreamlike state. And I then only could read, sci-fi or fantasy or, historical fictions were my go-tos. simply because I didn't wanna read something that was real, again, to avoid that kind of insomnia, issue I was trying to solve. And I was absolutely not going to read something about,like the Brene Rounds or something about business until I had mastered the art of reading again.

 I sleep beautifully now, but, I, yeah, I didn't stop, so I read every night. E even if it's two pages, it's something that really, really helps me. so that's how I get a lot of my knowledge from books And then I have an exceptional array of friends that do absolutely nothing of what I do and their minds are just exceptional.

They work in very different industries. They [00:50:00] bring me back to reality. yeah, we have, an appreciation for many other things, and I think that's yeah, a reality check that I need every week or so. 

Radim Malinic: I like it. I like the discipline. When you talk about This not unplugging from life and not plug it into the book mindfulness, that's just mindfulness.

That's just basically focusing on just the monotonous of one task. And that's there. If Joe now could see Joe who just landed in Montpelier at the age of 16, 17, I'm not asking what would you do differently, but what would you tell yourself, back then when things were hard 

Jo Roca: that it was going to be okay?

I think, and I had a quite a turbulent January besides the fires, we're working on our visa situation. There's many things unfolding at work and, tough things that, life throws at you. And I think life has this tendency of, at least in my life, when it throws one thing, it might as well throw 10 just to see how you go and.

[00:51:00] I know it's going to be okay. And whatever the outcome of that is will be fine, because that's what it is. So there's a moment where I'm like, I can do what I can do. There's this, what I can control, but most of these things I can't control. And there is absolutely no point on worrying about this in Spanish.

The word worry is said so preoccupied. That's how you translate worry. And it's really powerful because worried is to preoccupy yourselves with this burden. And if you just don't and you stop preoccupy with what you can do and let the worry leave, yeah, that's what I do. And I think little Joe.

Didn't know that. She had no way to know that. But it's all right. It's all good. 

Radim Malinic: She's taken you on a fantastic journey. I love what you [00:52:00] do. I love what you say. I love how you think and I think this industry is very lucky to have you So thank you so much.

I think we could talk for many, many hours about lots of different things, but yeah, thank you. I really a treasure that conversation. 

Jo Roca: This was a lovely conversation. Thank you for having me. 

Radim Malinic: Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode.  [00:53:00]