In this episode, Kate and Jenny give you their best tips and some simple guidelines to follow for getting the layout of each room just right.

Items mentioned:
- The Interior Design Handbook by Frida Ramstedt
- PowerPoint or Google Sheets
- Graph paper
- Laser measure
- Room Planner
- SketchUp
- Morpholio Trace
- Samsung Frame TV
- Slim frame sofa
- Rattan or sisal rugs (or jute)

Episode 13 - Layouts

Jen: [00:00:00] You are listening to rip it up the renovations podcast.

Kate: hi, I'm Kate. I run the Instagram page, Victorian Rathmines

Jen: And I'm Jenny. I run the Instagram account, Worker's Cottage.

Kate: This podcast is all about renovation and interiors from the renovator's perspective. We've been through it a few times between us and it hasn't scared us off. In fact

Jen: we loved it so if you are planning to do up your own home you can expect to hear lots of advice from our own experience along with plenty of tips and inspiration.

Episode intro

This is episode 13, and we are talking about layouts where we give you some of our best tips and some simple guidelines to follow for getting the layout of each room just right.

Episode body

Jen: Welcome back to the podcast! Hi Kate. Hi Jen. How are you? We're on episode 13. 13? Lucky. Unlucky?

Kate: Unlucky for some?

Jen: Lucky for listeners, because we're talking about layouts. And I, it's so [00:01:00] important, I think people struggle a lot with it. I think we can talk a lot here about different tools that you can use to plan the layouts of your rooms.

And like, there's some fairly tried and tested guidelines that can really help you just think about how to get that layout right once you've chosen the stuff you want or to help you choose the stuff that you want. And I'm looking

Kate: at the book and the table in front of us, the interior design handbook, if you don't have that, that's a great one for layouts.

Like, lads, you don't even need to

Jen: listen to us. Unreal reference book. Stop listening now and go buy the interior design handbook, it has everything you need, the bible for both of us, isn't it? Yeah, it's a great book. It's so good. I get so much great advice from it. It's unreal. Okay, so, layouts is literally just like, how do you plan out the room?

How do you plan where to put stuff in the room? And it is something you need to think about early on in your renovation process because you need to think about where things like your lighting and your electrical points and stuff like that go at your generally at your first fix, but at least you have to have it locked down by your second fix within your renovation process.

If you don't know what that means, go [00:02:00] back and listen to our first renovation episode on the renovation process. First or second? First and second. Listen to all our previous episodes. Yeah, listen to them all. And We're not going to tell you where it is, actually. Exactly. Come on. So you need to know what's where because you need to know, for example, where should your wall lights be?

Where do all your plug sockets need to be? Are they going on either side of your couch? So you need to have that layout at least, you know, roughly locked down. And it's not always easy, but there, yeah, here's some great tips. And some people struggle,

Kate: I think, 2D.

Jen: Yeah. Whereas,

Kate: personally Give me a 2D drawing any day over like a video walkthrough of a place.

Jen: So would you do a 2D, would you do it on paper? Would you sketch it out on paper?

Kate: Yeah, but say you're going through the renovation and you have architect's drawings. Or you have build, you know, construction drawings or something like that. You'll probably have the room layouts in 2D, but I know like when I've spoken to some people they're like, I just can't visualize it that way.

There's a lot of tools to help you, like online tools, room planners, Google Sketchup, even the Ikea planner, we talked about it in our last [00:03:00] episode.

Jen: Just PowerPoint. Yeah? PowerPoint, or like if you don't have Microsoft Office, just get Google Sheets for free, if you have a Google account.

Kate: Yeah.

Jen: Because you can just draw out shapes.

Yeah, yeah. And you can just have them be the size of, you know, it's so handy.

Kate: Draw the shapes, draw in like rectangles down for your bed or whatever, an L for your couch and just. Yeah. Or a pen

Jen: and paper. Back to the pen and paper. Get that, remember that graph paper. We all had it in maths class. You've all used it.

Just get a graph paper and

Kate: then. It's very easy to get scale wrong though. Yeah. Unless you're used to drawing it. Yeah. Whereas I think PowerPoint is a very safe bet. Yeah. Because you can see the

Jen: size of the shapes that you're pulling out. And you can just make that, you know, if it's like a, if you're buying a couch and your couch is going to be two meters long, then you can just draw like a 200 by 200 Whatever, 20 or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great way of kind of visualizing it. So if you don't have architect's drawings and you don't have your floor plans, you need to get out the ruler then. Yeah. Or the ruler, the measuring tape. Don't try and measure your house with [00:04:00] a ruler. 64 rulers,

Kate: yeah.

Jen: You need to measure, you need to measure everything three times and you need to go from, you know, point to point.

Kate: If you're doing a bit of a renovation, DIY jobby here, I would recommend investing in a laser measure.

Jen: Oh, you've spoken about this before. So I have one. Make your

Kate: life easy. They're only a few euro. Aren't they? Well, like the one I have was a little bit pricey, but there are definitely cheaper models.

You probably get one for 20 or 30 quid maybe. You just hold it up against the wall, press the laser, it measures the far wall. There's no getting it wrong. And it's like they're in centimetres, they're in inches, it'd be per inches, they're in metres, whatever.

Jen: And then you can do height as well, because I find measuring height with a measuring tape really difficult.

Kate: You can even measure, say if you had a room with a Velux in it, and you're like, oh I need to get a blind for that Velux, you can measure the width of the Velux from the floor down here, you can kind of triangulate it. So, yeah, it's really worth it if you're going to be doing a lot of measuring and you really want to map out a room properly.

Jen: So what do you look for? You just go [00:05:00] on Amazon or whatever and look for laser measuring? Yeah, I have

Kate: a Bosch one, but there's loads of different brands. I would just go with the cheapest one if you're not, like, you know. Like really need something super, super, super accurate, but

Jen: they are all pretty

Kate: accurate.

Jen: And your phone does it as well these days. At least iPhone has a built in measure. I'm sure there's an app on Android as well. But I, I don't know if I, for some, I don't, it's not always perfect. I think I'd prefer just to have a little physical touch. I've never used

Kate: it on my phone, but I have used the 3D visualizer tools on some websites.

Do you know where they drop the sofa into your room or whatever? Yeah, Ikea have one. Which is kind of handy as well, just to kind of visualize it. But yeah. It's, I suppose, depending on what you're more comfortable with. You might be more comfortable with 2D and paper and just draw it out that way.

PowerPoint is a great one, like you said. And then there's some really easy to use planners online as well. It's just to kind of get an idea of the room shape in 3D.

Jen: Yeah. So room planner is one tool. There's a really good free version of that. SketchUp is a little bit more involved. There's a bit of a learning curve with it, but once you get there, it's really handy.

So if you are planning. You know, a lot of rooms, I think, in fact, there's lots of great YouTube training videos that you [00:06:00] can use. An app that I love, and I paid for it because I found it so good, it's called Morpholio Trace. Okay. It really just does layouts and it's so good. It's floor plans, basically just floor plans.

So it's something that, you know, architects or architect technicians or interior architects would use and it's really, I find it great. Okay. So if you're doing a lot of layouts and you don't mind investing a bit, I think, when I say I paid for it, I think it was like 12 or something. Definitely worth it.

Okay. I find that really good. But then yeah, PowerPoint. Yeah, PowerPoint's great. Google Sheets, so handy. And pen and paper. Is handy but you have to redraw things then it's a bit, you know, it's 2024 guys use a digital Okay, so that's one thing I find it's so useful to be able to just move things around, you know, if you're thinking about like, where should I put my kitchen?

So it's worth doing it is what I'm saying to you. Definitely. Okay. There are some kind of guidelines per room that make planning the right layout easier. Will we start with the kitchen? We both love the kitchen. We do love kitchens. How do you feel about that? Like the kitchen triangle? Yeah.

Kate: I [00:07:00] think it's a little bit redundant now.

I don't know. I don't think it's as kind of set in stone as it used to be, that everything has to be triangulated. Like, I personally had, I don't think I had, I had my fridge and my sink on one wall, so I don't really think it was a

Jen: triangle. So the kitchen triangle was this, if anyone doesn't know, it was this guideline for planning our kitchens that was in use for forever, where your sink, your cooker and your hob and your fridge were one wall.

In a triangle shape from each other so at three different points of triangle and The theory was that made them all much easier to access and that was probably true for a while But kitchens are different now and the way we use kitchens are different now and the hob is separate from the cooker and you know I don't think it's quite so necessary.

Yeah, I

Kate: don't think it necessarily stands now and saying that I wouldn't put like my hob directly beside Like alongside a sink, you know, you need space between things or whatever for it to work well but yeah But I don't think it's necessary to have the triangle anymore.

Jen: Yeah, I don't think so either.

Like, I have my oven beside my fridge and it's fine. Although, now that I look at my [00:08:00] kitchen, I do have, like, my sink, my hob and my fridge are in a triangle. So, maybe I do have to You inadvertently did it. I inadvertently did it. Yeah. But I think that's a good general rule of thumb for kitchens is have space between items in your countertop.

Like have space on either side of your hob, have space on either side of your, of your sink. Don't have things like push right up against each other. You do need that space on either side.

Kate: Yeah. And I think the space between units is kind of key as well between your island and the other units. Not only do you need to be able to say, open a dishwasher, open a fridge without hitting something on the other side, but also if someone's working there, they can kind of comfortably pass each other as well.

Jen: And

Kate: it doesn't feel too cramped in. So I think the guidelines like at least a meter, isn't it? Or at least a hundred? The guidelines at least a

Jen: meter minimum. I think actually even 1100 for a kitchen island is the

Kate: minimum. Yeah. I think that's kind of, that's right. Less than that, I think you're going to be bumping into each other and banging doors off other

Jen: doors that are open and stuff.

It's so awkward that someone comes to your house and you're cooking, even if you're living on your own and someone comes over and they just want to get something from the fridge. Yeah. Like it immediately becomes this awkward [00:09:00] issue. So yeah, leave that space. You need it. Yeah. The other thing that I always heard is a clear route from outside the kitchen to the fridge.

Because that's where, because that's where all the food is. But you don't want to have to cross over the whole kitchen or go to a far corner or something to the fridge because you often pop up and down to get little bits from the fridge. I think it's probably good it's on the far side for me. Yeah.

Kate: Make it too

Jen: easy to get stuff.

That's a fair point. But anyway, that was advice that I heard that I thought was really good. Living room then.

Kate: Yeah.

Jen: I always think the easiest thing to do, living room and actually pretty much every other room except maybe the bedroom which is a bit specialist, but living room or dining room is to pick a focal point.

Kate: Yeah, and I have a very unpopular focal point I would say in mine which is my TV. And I don't No, I

Jen: don't think Most people

Kate: have that. But I think a lot of people now are saying like, you shouldn't make the TV a focal point, it should be hidden off. But like, I have a frame TV. You know, I paid to have a frame TV, so it looked kind of nice.

I don't mind it as a focal point. So really

Jen: your focal point is [00:10:00] art? Yeah, I think it is. And a lot of people have

Kate: actually missed that it is a TV, which I think it's doing its job then.

Jen: I love the frame. I think the frame looks incredible.

Kate: I personally don't like a big black square in the corner of my room.

Yeah. When it's off all the time. Yeah. So, I prefer it to be the focal point and be art, than a big black square in the corner. Hundred percent. And I would never, I will never convince my husband to get a small TV. So we're always going to have a huge TV, so may as well be out of my mind.

Jen: I'm with you, I don't like having a TV, a big black screen, as just taking up space in my living room.

But a lot of you, I'm not against it either, like that's just a personal preference, a lot of people do. If you're someone who loves, you know, is into movies and you like a TV and you want a big screen, then have that as your focal point, that's fine. Like, don't, you know, You don't need to worry about current trends.

I think like just stuff but also consider the frame because the frames amazing So yeah,

Kate: no, I do love it. How do you feel about the TV? Sorry, the couch is facing the TV versus couches maybe facing each other

Jen: I

Kate: struggle with this a little bit because I love the balance of a room when two sofas [00:11:00] are facing each other Yeah, and I feel it's very like conducive to kind of like conversation or whatever and it's nice for kind of a more adult Use maybe a living space that has a TV but then I like facing a TV because it's comfortable to watch TV.

See,

Jen: I actually don't really like couches facing each other. I like them at an angle to each other. Okay. And that allows for both then because you can have your couches I think it's just a bit awkward to be staring at someone right across the way. We don't like that as humans very much. Like even if you think about Yeah, it is like an interview.

So I don't really like couches right beside each other. If you have a couch, I like armchairs at a 90 degree angle to the side or a little bit more than that, but I don't like it directly opposite. Okay. And then that layout, with having the, you know, other chairs or another couch to the side of it allows you to still have that TV or another area be your focal point.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I, I have mine kind of at an angle but really it's just because my room only lends itself to that. Yeah. Because I have pocket doors and another one and we have a bay window so nothing else will fit. [00:12:00] But, yeah, some people love kind of the two of them facing, it's much more of a formal layout I think.

Jen: Yeah, look if you like that then do that, but then let that be the fo let the other couch be the focal point. Do you know what I mean? Like that is, that's it then and your TV needs to be either hidden or away because watching your TV from that angle is gonna be quite difficult.

Kate: And talking about living rooms, and you have, I know, the same stuff as me, so it's a three seater and the ottoman.

Yeah

Jen: and my focal point is my garden. Like the focal point of that living room is the big, you know, sliding doors that go out to the back garden.

Kate: What do you think of the old kind of configuration where you're a three seater and a two seater?

I think that's kind of gone. It's gone. It's gone. You don't go off and buy a three seater and a two seater. No. You buy

Jen: an L shape.

Kate: Yeah.

Jen: Yeah. You buy

Kate: an L shape or maybe, maybe a three and two armchairs. Yeah. Or possibly even two equal sized ones.

Jen: Yeah. You don't need a suite of like. Yeah, Russian doll.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. During your work. No. Yeah. Totally. I agree. So, what I like is having, I like [00:13:00] one big sofa. Now, that suits me for my lifestyle, because I like to lie out on the couch and watch TV. And when I have friends over, I want, you know, I like to be able to be panned out on the couch. That's why I love like an L shaped couch configuration.

I like people to be comfortable, feet up, whatever. And But that's for me in my life, that's how I like to do my, that's how I like to lay out the room. But maybe you prefer not, to not have that. Maybe you're somebody who likes to, you know, who's maybe a bit more formal and you like people kind of sitting upright and you're, you know, serving tea or whatever in porcelain cups, I don't know.

Depends on how you're living.

Kate: Yeah, I suppose it depends on your room layout and size as well and what length the wall is. Yeah. I have this funny kind of layout where it's this huge entry door into the living room. Like it seems disproportionate to the wall size to be honest. And then it leaves behind a very short length of wall to put a sofa

Jen: on.

Kate: So actually it only fits a two seater sofa on that wall which is really annoying because I don't really like two seater sofas because Back to our kind of conversations around like put the biggest furniture you can fit in a room It makes room feel more grand. I [00:14:00] think the size of the room in a two seater.

It looks a bit stupid and lost in there

Jen: It's a big room. It's annoying that there isn't a lot of walls. Yeah,

Kate: so we have a bay in one side Which we could obviously fit a decent sized sofa in the bay But then you're very far away from that other wall that has a two seater and it just feels a bit wrong That's one to think about

Jen: as well as the gap between your two sofas Yeah, it's too it's too much

Kate: That day and I put it in the other corner So I'm kind of struggling with the layout there, but like, I think long term we're going to have to close off the pocket doors.

Not close off the pocket doors, but put a sofa in front of them. Yeah. And then it kind of allows you to maybe do a corner group and another one and it allows you to kind of pull them together a bit more.

Jen: Yeah. What I love overall, because I'm with you on not really liking two seater couches, I just don't see any use for them.

Like, you're never going to sit side by side with just one other person on the couch unless you have like loads of people over for some reason. Yeah, they just look a bit bitty. And they're not big enough then to lie out in, so I'm just like, I just, they're not for me. So, but if, sometimes that's all you can fit and obviously that's grand then, but like, what I like is a big three seater at least and then [00:15:00] armchairs.

Yeah. And have that dotted around. And then,

Kate: and then that gives you a bit of flexibility in moving them around. Yeah. Whether you're watching a match as a group or you're chatting or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You can move around. That's what I had my last place I had the three seater and I had two lounge chairs.

Jen: Yeah,

Kate: and typically I had the lounge chairs kind of side by side So it looked a bit more kind of dressed and formal But then when people came we kind of moved them that we're all kind of and your

Jen: lounge chairs were whether you're dining chairs No,

Kate: no, they were no they were kind of there is a dining version of that chair when I was a lounge So they were kind of bigger chairs.

Jen: you need seating because I struggle with that a little bit in my currently had a big three seater couch And I don't have armchairs because I've no space for them, but I do have You You'd either pull over my dining chairs or I'd use the ottoman that I have in the middle of the room as extra seating or something like that.

But I could do with another option for seating because sometimes when I have people over here for matches or for movies or whatever, we end up all sitting along the couch and then some people sit here in the dining alcove which is a little, it's a bit of a separation. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

you can't have design for every eventuality, like you need to have

Kate: what you use the most. I think if you [00:16:00] have a funny wall, like I do, where you can only fit a small sofa, go for a slim frame sofa, so you can fit the most amount of seating on it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Rather than just, like, it feels uncomfortable sitting with someone on a two seater.

It's so weird. It's not like a partner or something. People just sit like side by side. You're like shoulder to shoulder. Like, yeah, it's just weird. So, like, I think, yeah. Go for slim arm sofas and then you can kind of have more flexibility with the layout I think.

Jen: Yeah, that's a really good point, yeah.

Kate: Or no arms in your case.

Jen: Or no, yeah, so my other, one of my sofas is a sofa bed and that has no arms. And that is a two seater actually, but that's really just there as a spare bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it doesn't. But

Kate: no arm sofas are an option if it's kind of a lesser used sofa. That might be, say in my case, used. It's just blocking a dividing door or a pocket door or something like that so it doesn't break up the space too much.

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. It

Jen: is. And it just means you can fit more seating space and take up less room overall. It's so handy.

Kate: So, so it's living space. Have your focal point. I think, for [00:17:00] me, it's a TV but the TV is over a fireplace.

Jen: Mm hmm.

Kate: So that is my focal point. That's divisive,

Jen: that one.

Kate: I like it.

It looks great. But there's divided opinion on that. There is, yeah, I know. I know, and that's where for

Jen: that, haven't you?

Kate: I have, for sure. I think it splits people down the middle, for sure. And some people say, you can't put a TV over a fireplace. I've done it for six years. Yeah. I've never had an issue with my TV.

Yeah, yeah. Like, every chimney breast is different, every mantle is different. We have a big, thick stone mantle. And there's no residual heat in our chimney breast, so it's fine. Like, do a little test here, it's fine. I wouldn't put it over something you don't have a mantle or whatever, but yeah, other than that, it's totally fine.

Jen: I have one that I came up against recently in terms of layout, and that is putting a fire in the corner of a room, as opposed to in the middle. Because, I'd love to have a little bioethanol stove. Shout out to Geri Designs, she really, she's just amazing. It's totally won me over and the concept of bioethanol she's got a beautiful one.

And the only place I really could put it is in the corner of my living room. But every time I've tried to picture that on a [00:18:00] planning tool, like on Sketchup or something, I just don't like the look of a fireplace in a corner. I don't know what it is. I like a fireplace in the middle of a wall, but that's really awkward.

Kate: I don't know. There is one exception. No, it's not a bioethanol one, but it's a stove one. So I don't know if you've ever seen it. I think it's like some Swedish design or something like that. It's like a black Essentially a pipe that comes down from the ceiling. Oh, kind of 70's style, like a spaceship. It's like a floating Pac Man kind of thing.

Love that. But that kind of floating maybe fireplace in a corner works, I think.

Jen: That could work really well actually, yeah.

Kate: I'd say Perry would happily lie underneath it as well. In a residual heat,

Jen: little cosy corner. He is a heat island, he loves it. Yeah, lying in the sun. Under a panda in the rain sometimes.

Yeah, I love, they're beautiful actually. Because I don't love, if I'm honest, There is kind of curved ones you can get that they're kind of long Cylindrical type ones that come from the floor. They're not my personal style. I don't know them so much But yeah, one hanger from the ceiling could be classy.

Yeah, that could be a nice one. It's nice. Yeah. I think. Yeah. So the other thing to think about then in living rooms is you need a pathway. [00:19:00] Now this is true for every room. You need a pathway, a clear pathway through the room and you need to think about this and it's something you can sketch out and you know, if you're drawing on paper or on a digital tool, what is your pathway through that room?

It's true for a kitchen. It's true for a living room. You need, sometimes you might have an entrance, you might have two entrances into a living room. You need a clear pathway from one to the other. Or you might have sliding doors, or you might have something like that. But you always need to have a clear pathway to be able to walk through the room.

Okay. So think about that when you're placing your coffee table or other, you know, side tables or other pieces of furniture. What is that pathway through the room? Because even if you don't use it, even if you're not walking it a lot, it's a, mentally it makes the space feel a lot more usable and a lot less cluttered.

Kate: Okay. Boxed in. And you also mentioned coffee tables. The side tables there. I, I don't know why I never really have coffee tables in the middle of my room. Mm. Now I have had a big ottoman. Kind of like when you have Oh, you don't actually.

Jen: Yeah.

Kate: But I tend to have kind of more side tables. Yeah. I think it's mainly 'cause kids are kind of running there and I just know they're gonna climbing it or fall against it or something like that.

But [00:20:00] I love Amber. I love using side tables to kind of balance. The size of furniture. Yeah, so you have a big armchair You might put a side table beside it so it kind of makes it feel wider and then it balances with the other bigger sofa

Jen: Yeah, and then

Kate: when we're talking about kind of like balance in the room and zoning big rugs Big like I love a big rug.

Jen: I this is a whole other episode in itself, but just please Don't buy a small rug your rug needs to at a minimum go under the front legs of the furniture that is surrounding that rug That is your rule Please do not deviate. And ideally go underneath the whole furniture, but at the minimum go underneath the front legs of that furniture.

Kate: And if you have a funny proportioned room, like I do say with the bay, and you want to do that, sometimes you might be able to find an off the shelf kind of solution for a rug. But if you go to a carpet place, they'll usually bind carpet on a roll to a specific size. Yeah, you can

Jen: bind carpet. You can also find an irregular shaped rug, like an animal skin or something like that is an irregular shape.

That will, you know, if there's an area that [00:21:00] you don't want to have like the corner of a rug sticking out into or something. Or the other thing you can do, we're way off on rugs here now. Well, we're into zoning, which is an important part of layouts. But the other thing you can do is you can layer rugs. So if you got really a nice kind of like a sisal like flat kind of rug, you can have that extending to parts of the living room.

And then if there's another bit that's still left over, you can layer another rug. on that that goes with it to cover off that corner. It looks, I think that can look really good. Yeah. It's not, it's, it takes a bit of finessing to get

Kate: it right, but it can look great. But I think that's key, you know, to zone a space and for that layout that You know, that anchors the different pieces of furniture, I think.

Jen: Yeah, zoning, so zoning can be done in a bunch of different ways. It really just means using something to, to kind of highlight that that area is an area. So a rug is the perfect way to do that in a living area, especially in a living, like an open plan space. Furniture, like side tables can be another way.

So maybe a side table in and of itself might not do it, but something with a tall plant on it, or a sculpture, a vase or whatever, a lamp. A floor

Kate: lamp beside an armchair I think is a lovely [00:22:00] zoning as well. So if you have a big fantastic bay window or something like that, that maybe you'll just put an armchair and a little mini side table and floor lamp there.

Jen: Yeah. Or I even love room dividers in some cases. Yeah, yeah. You know, like that can be a really good way of just sectioning off. I feel like it works either in really small places, like tiny, tiny places. or in really big areas and you can have you know something coming in it might be like really slim shelves for example if you've got a good joiner that can come in and create something like that that you can display candles vases artwork whatever it might be on it and that just sections off a part of the room and it doesn't have to come all the way out it only has to come out a little bit but i think it can look really good yeah definitely or another thing for zoning that i love is if you have a really large either living room or like open plan kind of or living dining or something like that is The couch doesn't have to be up against the wall.

The couch could be in the middle of the room potentially. It shouldn't be up against the wall. No, it shouldn't be up against the wall at all. It should be pulled out a little bit, but let's talk about that. But it doesn't necessarily need to go along the, [00:23:00] the hall. You can put it in the middle of the room.

Now, the only thing is the back of the couches don't always look great. So I would put like a dresser or like a credenza or something or something, even slim shelving along the back of it. But that can be a great way to zone out the room. For sure. A

Kate: big corner group in the middle of a very vast space is a great way to zone out.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And a console on the back of it. Dress it.

Jen: And the other thing you can do, it doesn't have to be an item. It could be colour. Like you can zone a place by, you know, you could use colour blocking for example. Or just have something that kind of Yeah, yeah. Like paint it different. Yeah, you could.

Interesting. Or even wallpaper it different or something. Wallpaper it different. That could be good. I don't, you're kind of into accent wall territory, I don't love accent walls, but people have used colour blocking in really clever ways to, it's just a slight, you know, change in tone or something like that.

Makes it feel

Kate: more cosy or whatever, or something like that.

Jen: Yeah. I think it works well where there's a natural demarcation, like if there's a chimney breast or there's a bookshelf or something and you can go from one colour to another a little bit more easily. Yeah. Or where it looks great is, I've seen it, is.

if you [00:24:00] have an office area or a study area within a room that you just have the wall like or a portion of the wall painted about that or even on the floor like you can paint floors. All right that's a whole area of expertise but I think it can work. The other difficult room for layouts I find is the bedroom.

Kate: It's really hard. Yeah it's tricky because Especially if we're doing old houses. So our last house had fireplaces in every room. Actually our current house is f ing fireplaces in every room. Not very practical these days.

So We actually closed up the fireplaces in the rooms in the bedrooms in the last house And what that did then was it gave us that wall to put the bed against But.

And you say

Jen: put the bed against now. The

Kate: head of the bed. The head of the bed. Yeah, so the head of the bed against that wall and actually our chimney rest was quite narrow So it was whatever 180 centimeters or something, but the bed would be 180, right? So we actually built out the sides of the chimney breast wider with some stud work And then that gave us an extra wall in the room.

And I think if we [00:25:00] didn't have that We wouldn't have been able to fit a decent bed and a decent wardrobe in the room.

Jen: Mm hmm.

Kate: So Personally, I like my feet facing the door so I can see who's coming in the door.

Jen: Yeah You Who's coming in the door?

Kate: Elephant,

Jen: I don't know. When I know there's someone coming up the stairs or whatever.

You don't want to be approached from behind when you're in the office. Yeah, yeah, like I don't.

No, I'm joking. That came out of the hour, so I just

Kate: played it

Jen: for you. You weren't even sneaking up on it.

Kate: No, I don't. And I don't know, I like facing the door of the room. I feel a bit more comfortable or something.

Jen: Yeah. It's feng shui or whatever. That is a thing, I think it is a feng shui thing, yeah. So, but your room is kind of reverse.

How do you feel about it? I don't feel any way about it because the You're like, people,

Kate: people, people

Jen: behind Come on in, come on in. Don't get rid of it. I, the reason though I think it's slightly different in my room is because yes, the, like, kind of alcove entryway into my bedroom is technically behind the head of my bed.

[00:26:00] Or like, it's in the same wall that the head of my bed is pushed up against. However, You come in through that whole space from the top of the stairs, which is actually at a 90 degree angle. So, you're kind of coming in from an angle, but the openings are right beside each other. So, the real entrance to my bedroom, I think, really is kind of to the side, not to the back.

Okay. So it doesn't bother you. So it long story short. So it doesn't bother me. No. Yeah. But I can see why it would. I can see what you mean.

Kate: Yeah. I typically like to see. But then I know some people like to face their bed looking out a window or whatever if there's a nice view. So that's on your bed facing.

My bed facing

Jen: looks out the window. And I love that. Because I love a weekend morning of getting up, getting my coffee, getting a book, opening the curtains. I can see out over Tower. So you don't know the time. It's always 12 o'clock. So my timing is always way off. And I like lying in bed and reading my book.

I love that. I wouldn't like the window being behind the head of my [00:27:00] bed. No. Totally fine with it being to the side of it. Like on one side, but I wouldn't like it to be behind it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not sure what the fung shui of that is. But what I really don't like and I had in an apartment I rented for years is the bed, like the side of the bed pushed up against a wall.

Kate: No. It's really frustrating.

Jen: Yeah, it is. You're climbing in. And I really don't like it if it's up against a window because you have dampness issues. Well, sometimes you do in certain bedrooms, you can have dampness, you need to ventilate. Or up against a radiator. No, I really don't like that. It's too hot, it's so wetty.

I really don't like that. That makes me nervous. Like, not that a radiator would get so hot it would set my bed in on fire, but that's what's in my head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So

Kate: for layout to a bedroom, we're kind of agreed the head of the bed should be on the wall, not the side.

Jen: So the head of the bed should either be on the wall, Or, if you have a very long bedroom or a really large bedroom, you can break it up by having maybe like joinery, like built in wardrobes or something like that in behind your bed.

Like you can [00:28:00] create a whole little separate area. Like a

Kate: hotel suite kind of style. Yeah. So you kind of do a stowed wall behind your bed and then wardrobes and stuff in behind that. That's a lovely layout as well. Because

Jen: otherwise you're left with this big huge space in the middle of a large bedroom.

Not a problem I have personally, but like some people have big large items and that's just a bit weird and a bit wasted. So I think pulling that out and creating that separate zone and then it means you can have your, your mess or your partner's mess, like whatever clothes draped around the place hidden in behind that area.

So where do you put wardrobes?

Kate: Where do you think the best space is to put wardrobes when

Jen: you come into your room? I like the wardrobes built in personally and a long,

the shortest wall of the room.

Yeah,

that makes sense.

Kate: And bed facing it. Does it matter?

Jen: Either facing it or sideways to it, I don't know.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. It depends on what size and shape your room is, I suppose.

Kate: Yeah, and it depends on what your kind of wardrobes look like. If they're nice or not, and whether you want to see them.

And then, anything else in layout of the bedroom we should be thinking of considering? So,

Jen: you need to leave a bit of space around your around the bed. Around, the minimum recommended is around [00:29:00] 660mm. So that's enough space for, to just walk around basically. Yeah.

Kate: That'd be nice.

Like that gives you a big room. Yeah, that is a big room. If

Jen: you have a big bed. Like if you have a big bed. But if you start from there and then think about where your wardrobe is going to be and do you need to open your wardrobes or are you better off getting sliding doors because opening them would hit the bed.

Then that lets you work back to what size bed can you realistically fit in that bedroom. And what I would do there is definitely use, go back to using your tools like a pen and paper digital tools, whatever, to see what size bed you can fit in. But use masking tape and that's the same for all furniture, like if you're in the house and you're.

You don't want to end up with a big piece of furniture delivered your house that doesn't actually fit. Measure everything three times, but then actually measure out the size. That you have available and you can either use that to decide what size you have available So how big a couch you can fit or how big a bed you can fit or how big a dining table you can fit Or you can use it to see if the one that you want will fit in that space or if you might need something smaller Or bigger.

Yeah, or to add an accent piece as you said to kind of [00:30:00] finish it out.

Kate: Yeah mask is a great one If it's very dusty and you're in the middle of a renovation, just use chalk.

Jen: Yeah, yeah,

Kate: if it's going to be covered or whatever, yeah. I love doing that in some rooms as well. Yeah. But one last thing on the bedroom layout.

So we talked about in the living room. If you're putting a rug under your bed. Underneath the whole bed.

Jen: Yeah, so under.

Kate: So either

Jen: underneath the whole bed or if your bedroom has a, if like, if there's space in your bedroom to the side, like if your bed is an offset so that there's, you know, Walk away on one side and then a lot of space on the other side, then the rug needs to go under the Feet of the two feet of the bed that are along that that open side if that makes sense.

Kate: Yeah Yeah, so that's what I had in my last place. So I had the rug kind of under the two feet at the foot of the bed, but not under the the two feet at the head of the bed or the Lockers. Yeah. So the lockers were off the rug and then I started it. So everywhere I'd walk around the bed essentially. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. That's fine. And I think about [00:31:00] 50, 60 centimetres minimum either side of your bed. Yeah. As well. Yeah. So same as your kind of walkways. So keep that kind of border or perimeter around it as well. Yeah. Does that make sense? I think that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so 60 centimetres is your kind of golden rule here.

Yeah. For pathways, for walkways, and for a border of a rug.

Jen: Yeah. Exactly. Okay. And then for where to put your bedside lockers. Because they can take up, they can be a bit bulky, they can take up a bit of space. If they

Kate: are, they're

Jen: so crap and they're just really hard to get good ones, really hard.

Kate: You just end up firing crap into them. I'm of the mindset now of just not having them anymore. And like my latest bed just has two little kind of cantilevered side tables built into the bed frame.

Jen: Oh I love that. And I love it. That's all I need. Like

Kate: all that's on it is maybe my phone if I'm charging my phone.

Although I try and charge my phone out of the bed now. It's a game changer. And then just my book and some water. Yeah, yeah. Cause I do hate when

Jen: crap just collects.

Kate: It

Jen: just collects. It just gets

Kate: dusty and there's [00:32:00] just crap

Jen: in there. So I like them either just little shelves. Or, what I love is actually those headboards that extend beyond the width of the bed and then the shelves are in the headboards and that's really good.

Yeah, so it's hidden so you're not seeing the

Kate: crap.

Jen: There's a little cocoony element to that, I think that's lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm so sure. Anything you

Kate: can do to kind of hide crap beside your, your bed is nice. It feels, again, more kind of like your bathroom and storage and all that kind of stuff.

Just, yeah. Yeah, clear space, get

Jen: rid of all that crap, stop buying crap.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, just stop

Jen: buying crap. And then the, the last thing I'll say is again, touching back on those wardrobe doors, really think about like, what way do they open up and what kind of space are they taking up when they're open?

Like, are you able to see what's inside easily? I don't know why you wouldn't get sliding doors. I love sliding doors. Although I don't actually have them in my bedroom bedroom. I wasn't because it's it's alcove. So I don't get them there. But just think about what direction do they open up and what space they take up when they're open.

Like, are you able to stand in front of them open or is it too awkward? [00:33:00] Like that's another

Kate: block in the walkway then when they're open. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Jen: Okay, so we're back, we kind of jumped over to bedroom, but back to dining room layout. So, there is again, there's kind of a rule of thumb that you need a, It's about a metre around your dining table to be, to be able to, so from the edge of the table.

To pull out a chair. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So not including the chairs, but from the edge of the table to the edge of the wall or any other piece of furniture that's in there ideally you need a metre around it. This does not count for bench seating tables because those are chairs, so it's different. And

Kate: you save a lot of space that way, don't you?

Yeah. Oh my God, so much space. And you fit

Jen: so many people around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate: Anyway. If you're tied on space, yeah, it's definitely one to think of. But you

Jen: had a separate dining table. area in your last house. Because there's two things to think about. You either have a separate dining area, which is a whole design challenge in itself, or you need to find, kind of, fit a dining zone or a dining room into your open plan.

Which can be really hard. It's always the last thing you think about and it can be really difficult. So, but you had, you had your own kind of separate dining area.

Kate: We had a separate dining room. [00:34:00] Essentially, kind of a formal dining room. Because there was nothing else in there really. There wasn't a TV in there or anything else.

So we kind of used it a lot for kind of maybe Sunday dinners.

Jen: Yeah.

Kate: And then we'd kind of sit at the island most evenings because it was just the two of us.

Jen: Yeah. But

Kate: now my dining table that wasn't my formal dining table is just our everyday table.

Jen: Yeah.

Kate: Because we don't have the luxury of a dining room at the moment.

Jen: Which is fine as well. Yeah. But it, so you just then had dining table in the centre.

Kate: Yeah.

Jen: What considerations did you have for getting the right size dining table?

Kate: Again, we probably had the luxury of like a big 4 by 4 metre room. Yeah. And there was nothing else in the room except a big fireplace. So we were fine.

We had like a, we bought an oval table and it was like Oh, with a great layout. Yeah, it is. I love oval and round. Just no corners, you fit more people around it. And you can kind of, where you put the chairs is a bit more adaptable. So you can put three and three on the sides and kind of carve them around the sides of the oval.

Or you could put two at the heads and two at each side. It's

Jen: really easy to throw in an extra person that arrives last minute. [00:35:00]

Kate: So from that point of view it gives you a bit of flexibility I suppose. But there was definitely, yeah, there was enough space. I would say if we put the two chairs at the head, And tail of the table or the heads of the table, it was a tiny bit tight because that four meters plus the two meters of the table and the chairs were just on the edge of being too short, I would say.

But width wise we were fine.

Jen: Yeah, because you definitely don't want, like, there might be some corner depending on where you are, but you don't want people awkwardly trying to shuffle behind chairs and be like, oh, you have to pull in, like, that's just frustrating. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate: The meter, I definitely believe it though, because we're, we currently have the same dining table, it's just a very small space.

But There's no space to walk around it. Yeah, yeah. If someone's sitting in so we typically let guests go sit in the inside first Because then we'd be up and down serving or whatever Because otherwise there isn't really space for people to be pottering around. Yeah.

Jen: And then if you're trying to work a dining area into your open plan kitchen living dining again This all comes back to how often do you use it?

How big do you need it to be? Do you entertain often or no? Do you have a big family or no? [00:36:00] Like be honest with yourself about how big a dining table you actually need Yeah. And then when you're trying to work it into an open plan kitchen living dining First of all, get banquette seating. There's no reason not to.

It's the best thing ever. Built in bench seating, because that eliminates a lot of the layout issues that you need to think about in terms of how much space you need to have left behind and pulling out chairs and being able to squeeze around. Yes. You kind of have to shuffle along a bench seating, but like the pros outweigh the cons so much.

It just makes so much sense.

Kate: I definitely think even if you don't do built in banquette, if you have kids or whatever, or a big kind of family, I think having a bench on one side is a kind of a no brainer, if you have a rectangular table or a square table. You fit more people, I think kids kind of naturally gravitate more towards the bench seating a lot of the time anyway.

So I

Jen: definitely, I definitely do that. Yeah. And then the other thing to think about I suppose in terms of layout is that make sure you have enough space to actually move around it when someone is sitting in the chair. And it comes back to that path, that through path that if, you know, if someone is sitting down and having dinner, you don't need to [00:37:00] be asking them to move in just so you can get to the kitchen.

And think about does that change, you know, the shape of table that you need to buy or the orientation of the table that you need to buy or the types of chairs that you can realistically fit into that, like, do they need to be small, little smaller stool chairs even? I know they're really uncomfortable, but at least, you know, less ornate, minimalist kind of slimline chairs that, that will fit properly there.

And the last, bathrooms.

Kate: Bathroom layout is an interesting one because The more and more plans I'm seeing nowadays, there seems to be a lot of toilets as the first thing when you open a bathroom door. And I don't know why you'd purposefully put a toilet in view. Now I know there's kind of like, limitations with waste layouts and whatever, but personally for a layout of a bathroom, I don't want to see the toilet.

Yeah. So whether that's putting it in, you know, in behind you as you open the door so you don't see it, or there's a stud wall in front of it or something like that. But, that typically is kind of, you know, My main consideration in the layout of a bathroom and then I like to open it and see a big long vanity or something.

Yeah. [00:38:00] That should be my focal point I think in a bathroom. Agreed. And I think even if you have a small bathroom, the longest vanity you can fit in there makes the space feel more grand and long.

Jen: Yeah, big time. And then like another thing about layout is shower doors. I don't like a fully enclosed shower, although it's fine in a big bathroom

but I way prefer that kind of wet room look and it just opens out your layout possibilities so much more. So just like one screen along one side of the shower maybe or something like that. Yeah.

Kate: I do like a little cabin shower if the layout allows it. Our current house, if our plans go ahead, we want to do an ensuite which has kind of an under stairs bit, so the stairs for the attic.

Kind of cuts off part of the room and I would love to do a little cabin shower in there like clad out like maybe a Little dramatic marble kind of pocket. Oh, yeah, and then have it really like closed in Yeah so I think that can kind of work if you funny little shape spaces But I think if you have a big square space or whatever, yeah, it's nice to just have a clean clean door

Jen: Yeah, what I've seen a lot of recently actually is Putting showers in a corner [00:39:00] And actually it does open out a lot more space.

Yeah. Because, you know, what you need to put in a bathroom is your shower, your sink and your toilet. And those three things in a small space can be a little bit awkward sometimes, especially, you know, leaving enough space to be able to walk to the toilet or be able to whatever. And actually putting the shower in a corner, it can really open out.

It can really leave a lot of extra space, floor space. It can open a lot of extra floor space. So that's something to think about if you're really tight and you're really struggling with where do you put your shower, where do you put your bathroom? Think, could that shower potentially go in a corner?

Kate: Yeah.

Jen: And how would that work?

Kate: Yeah. And I think if you have a beautiful freestanding bath, that can be your focal point. Like lovely, right? Gorgeous. Make that your focal point. Make your vanity your focal point if you don't have that. But if you have a built in bath, if that's the kind of small, if you have a smaller bathroom and you have a built in bath, I don't necessarily think it has to be your focal point, but it could equally be if it's a nice built in bath, tiling around it.

You could make it the focal point, but I think if you're [00:40:00] going for the beautiful freestanding bath, make that front and centre. Yeah. Get a big like copper one or a gorgeous metal one.

Jen: Oh, they're so beautiful. I would love one of those. So many options. With a big window. Yeah. Oh, it's so gorgeous. Anyway, if you have one of those and you're listening, know that we think you're very lucky.

We want to come over and maybe use your bath. The last one. Then the last one was room in the house. That's handy. Is the hallway. Yeah. It's a tricky enough one space. Yeah. We talked a

Kate: little bit about this, didn't we? In our last episode we talked about storage. So that's kind of, I think storage in your hallway dictates your layout a little bit.

But I think things to consider when you're coming in your hall door that you want a clear path. Again, clear path, right? So you're opening your hall door. Don't open your hall door and immediately have all the storage stuff in front of you. Or a big radiator or something.

Jen: Yeah.

Kate: So maybe consider what wall the radiator goes on that it's hidden.

Or it's not in your path or whatever like that. So try and keep the path as clear as possible. And if your hallway is quite small or narrow and you don't have the space for maybe a console table or storage, [00:41:00] consider a wall mounted shelf just over the radiator. Yeah. Kind of disguise the radiator, works as good as a console and doesn't take up a lot of space.

Yeah. But yeah, anything to make you feel more open and kind of wide.

Jen: Yeah. And I said this a little bit in the last episode, but I don't like too much above, say, shoulder height in a hallway. Yeah. I find it, especially a long narrow hallway, if you've got a large hallway, then fine, go floor to ceiling.

That's totally fine. But if you're dealing with a narrow hallway and you don't have space, try to keep what's above shoulder height at a minimum because it'll, it'll crowd it in way too much. So if you're hanging up, you know, coat hooks and all that kind of stuff, try to keep it kind of shoulder height or below.

And that would make the space feel a lot more open and a lot less claustrophobic.

Kate: Yeah, and if you are going through a renovation, think about a mat as well. Like, depending on where you live and whether you think a floor mat is needed at your hall door. Think about recessing it, because I think it's a very tidy option.

And it kind of can dictate, sometimes where you put a mat can dictate kind of the layout a little bit. And the way people come into your house. So, we had a recess when our last one and I loved it. Because people walked across it without thinking and it didn't dictate [00:42:00] their path.

Jen: Yeah, very nice.

And it was

Kate: very tidy. Yeah. It cleaned everyone's feet.

Jen: What do you need to do to build that in? Do you just? Well,

Kate: it depends. If you're doing your flooring, they'll just allow that kind of recess and then you can get those I don't know how you pronounce it, coir mat or, you know, that kind of like coconut fibre mat.

And you can get those cut to size online or whatever and then recess it in. You could put a little trim if you're doing kind of timber floors, like a little brass trim or something like that, or even finish it with, you know, tile and tile trim or no tile trim or whatever. But I just love, I think sometimes when you've a mat off to the side in your hall, kind of people come in and go that way, whereas if it's just recessed into the floor, people don't even see it and kind of walk over it anyway.

Jen: There's a whole other episode in this, but there's a, there's an interesting kind of psychology about. Where you put that stuff and where people go to then, if that makes sense. Like, I imagine if you have a mat against your front door, say if people are like leaving after a dinner party or something like that, they won't go as far as the mat, they'll kind of stop.

You know, there's always that like chat around the door before we leave. Yeah, exactly. And [00:43:00] they probably won't go as far as the mat then, if you're putting a mat there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Or like when they first come into the house, they might not move off the mat immediately until they've got their coat off or something like that.

So is that space big enough then? Yeah, exactly. It's just a psychological thing. It's kind of funny. It's, it's it's the same with the layout of every room. Like, there will be a psychological element to where people gravitate towards. Yeah. Like for me, when people come into this house, the first thing they do is they go and they lean against the corner of that kitchen penista.

Yeah. Usually because I'm probably in the kitchen doing something maybe or something like that. They go there first, then they go to the couch probably second. I'm sure some people

Kate: go straight to Perry though. A lot of people go straight to Perry.

Jen: Yeah, they do. He loves the cuddles. Yeah, he does. So the probably key themes or key takeaways I'd say from layout is in, in all rooms except for maybe the kitchen, pick your focal point. What's your focal point? Even the kitchen I suppose. It's probably your hop is your focal point. Yeah. Or a few like beautiful

Kate: marble maybe that's your focal

Jen: point or something like that.

And probably try to pick one, like don't have too many [00:44:00] competing ones, this is a whole different topic around patterns and flashing and colour and everything but pick one major focal point and then you can have balance and you can have everything, we'll talk about this in later episodes but try to have one.

So yeah, in your kitchen it might be beautiful marble backsplash or something or a gorgeous range if you're someone who loves a really nice background. It could be your kitchen island, if you have, you know, a nice big island in the middle. Could be a big

Kate: window.

Jen: Could be a huge window, yeah. Sometimes,

Kate: like, sometimes, especially in old houses, like, you kind of come in through the hall, and if you've renovated, it's like There's a view all the way through and out to the back, that's lovely if you can kind of align the kind of walkways through and the windows at the back.

Love that. Close your eye all the way down to the back.

Jen: Feels so long and spacious and like what am I going to get at the other end of this, it's really really nice. In your living room it's probably your TV, try to get a nice TV if it is, or it could be a really beautiful piece of art, like if you're really into art and you've got something amazing on display, then you orientate.

And the whole point of a focal point is that you kind of orientate towards that and you work backwards from that. It could be a window again.

Kate: If it's [00:45:00] your TV, just saying this, I never ever, ever use the legs that come with the TV. No, no. Mount it. Mount it. They should just go in the bin guys. Mount it on the wall and then maybe disguise it as gallery wall around it.

Yeah. Some lovely examples of that as well. Florence and Henry did that really well on her Instagram.

Jen: Yeah, shout out to you Tanya. If you don't want a TV, get a projector. I'll talk about that extensively in a separate episode, but get a projector. In your bedroom then, head of the bed up against the wall or up against a stud wall if you're building a little partition.

Try not to put the long side of your bed up against a wall. Try to have the head of the bed against the wall and the bed pulled out centrally or a bit more centrally at least. And, yeah,

Kate: don't block your pathways. Make sure you have your kind of key, what do we say, 1100 1100,

Jen: sorry, yeah, 1100 around your kitchen.

600, your bed, around your bed, 56 50 plus around your bed, if you can, a hundred around your dining table that's a meter between the edge of your table and the walls or any other items of furniture around your living room. You [00:46:00] can, you can go a bit tighter. You can have at least four 50, around 500, I'd say four 50 to 500 as a pathway or as a pathway.

Okay? So around, let's say your coffee table between your armchair and your coffee table, or between your couch and your coffee table, okay? Or between armchair and couch, et cetera. Leave about four 50 to 500 millimeters.

Kate: And if you have an ugly side or back of a couch, get a nicer couch. No, don't. Use your side table down to your advantage.

Dress a side table. Make that the end. Or a console table or whatever behind it.

Jen: Yeah, a long slim table can go a long way. Yeah, for sure. Or a little shelves or something. Or a little credenza. A little slim credenza can be lovely. And

Kate: if you're in the

Jen: bathroom, no one wants to see the toilet. Just hide it.

If you can. Do not have your toilet as your focal point. Unless you've got, for some reason, an amazing toilet. I don't know, is there such a thing? Nobody wants it. Yeah, usually your vanity. Again, maybe a window. It can always be a window. But usually your vanity. Or your beautiful freestanding bath. Your freestanding bath.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And in your hallway. Key takeaway for a hallway?

Kate: Keep your storage out of sight. Yeah. And down low if you can. If you can, if you're [00:47:00] operating in a small space, keep your storage down low. And maybe keep the radiator away so it's not in your path.

Jen: Just try not to have something jutting out and blocking the path. Again, it's all clear pathways and that creates, flow through the house which is, which is really nice. Yeah.

Kate: And that's it for episode, what did you say, 13?

Jen: Episode 13. Lucky 13.

Kate: See you again next time guys. See you in two weeks. Bye.

Jen: If you found that episode useful, please do us a huge favor by giving us a like, and a few stars and especially click that subscribe button. Thank you.

Rip It Up: The Renovations Podcast

Episode 13 - Layouts

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