Episode 19 - Georgina Wilson, Special Guest

Kate and Jenny are excited to bring you a very special guest - award winning Australian architect Georgina Wilson, founder of Georgina Wilson Associates and  Ask an Architect. Get ready for an absolute goldmine episode, chock-a-block with renovation revelations, and check out askanarchitect.co for more.

For this episode, we are very proud to be sponsored by Floretry. Floretry crafts contemporary floral designs that evoke a connection to the Irish landscape. With a commitment to sustainability, Floretry uses Irish grown flowers to create unique floral styling for weddings, TV, film, and events. If you are planning a wedding, get in touch at floretry.ie and quote "Rip It Up" for a 20 percent discount on their wedding packages.

Transcript

Jenny: [00:00:00] You are listening to Rip It Up, the home renovations podcast.

Kate: Hi, I'm Kate. I run the Instagram page, Victorian Rathmines. And I'm Jenny. I run the Instagram account, Workers Cottage. This podcast is all about renovation and interiors from the renovator's perspective. We've been through it a few times between us and it hasn't scared us off.

Jenny: In fact, we loved it. So if you are planning to do up your own home, you can expect to hear lots of advice from our own experience, along with plenty of tips and inspiration.

Kate: In today's episode, Kate and Jenny are very excited to bring you a very special guest, award winning Australian architect, Georgina Wilson. Founder of Georgina Wilson Associates and Ask an Architect platform. So get ready for an absolute goldmine episode, chocablock with renovation revelations. 

Jenny: For this episode, we are proud to be sponsored by Floretry. Floretry crafts contemporary floral designs [00:01:00] that evoke a connection to the Irish landscape. With a commitment to sustainability, Floretry uses Irish grown flowers to create unique floral styling for weddings, TV, film, and events. If you are planning a wedding, get in touch at floretry.ie and quote "Rip It Up" for a 20 percent discount on their wedding packages.

Welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Kate. Hi, Jen. And hi, Georgina. Hi, Kate. Hi, Jen. Welcome to the podcast. So today, some of you might have seen this on Instagram over the past week. We have a very special guest, Georgina Wilson. She is one of Australia's leading architects. Kate and I have both been fans for a very long time.

Obsessed is a fair assessment of our feelings towards you. With global recognition, also founder of Ask an Architect, a platform of information, resources, education, and tools. Specifically for those undertaking home renovations. So if that's you, go and check it out. And welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to have you here.

Thank you. It's so nice to [00:02:00] be here. We've a ton of topics, a ton of questions that came through on Instagram that we're going to get to. Probably most importantly, or most prominently, I guess, is really around the topic of period restorations, old homes, bringing them into the modern world. Is that fair to say 

Kate: that that's probably your area of expertise, Georgina?

Love that topic. And it's definitely something we have in common, I think, you know, Ireland and the UK and Australia, those amazing period homes. and trying to make them for modern living? 

Georgina: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, probably Australia less so than the UK and Ireland. I'm sure you've got a lot more beautiful you know, really old homes to deal with.

But that's definitely something we deal with a lot here in Sydney. We've got a lot of terrace houses, which are probably not that dissimilar to some of the homes in the UK and Ireland. Dealing with those small spaces and just really trying to get the most out of those small spaces to live in, in [00:03:00] today's modern times.

And I guess with the expectations of the modern life and trying to make these often quite limited spaces work for us. I think I was saying to you guys the other day, um, we do quite a lot of designs for people all around the world, including people in Ireland and the UK. Yeah, it's just lovely to be able to work the spaces really hard and show people how to get the most out of those type of environments.

Kate: Size and space in these kind of old homes is definitely something that's difficult to navigate. You know, making the spaces usable because now we love big modern open kitchens and all that kind of stuff. But also in Ireland, we have a little bit of a different challenge around getting light into these homes because we don't get a lot of it and it's very grey.

And look, 

Georgina: I mean, even in Sydney, where we have a lot of light generally. It's still the same big challenge to get light into these type of homes, you know, where you might have a terrace type of house, for example, where it's built on both sides, you really, your only options are to get light in through the front [00:04:00] or the back.

And often, particularly at the front, you'll have windows that are quite small. The property may not be blessed with natural orientation. So it's about how do you find ways to respect the old home characteristics, but still flood it with light. I guess there are some specific techniques that often make that possible.

Kate: That's actually a question that we got in specifically around like bringing light into these old homes, so bringing light in Irish homes where light is very gray, it may not be all day long. It may be, you know, like you said, not a great aspect. And especially where we are in Dublin city centre, you're so enclosed almost on all sides, bringing light in sometimes from above through roof lights and things like that is the right solution.

What do you think about that? 

Jenny: And we definitely have strong opinions as well I think here on just putting a glass box on an old house. Yeah. You know, I think that's the terminology people use that people feel a bit strongly against that that's not the right way to be sympathetic. 

Georgina: I kind of would agree and actually, [00:05:00] I think that actually that sort of approach like putting a glass box on a house.

Might be acceptable in Ireland, but it's definitely not acceptable in Australia. in Australia. I've seen some beautiful renovations that have done that sort of thing in the UK. In Australia, that really is not available to us because you would literally burn alive on the inside due to the heat gain. So it's a different type of challenge, but it's equally as challenging.

You've got to get the light in. but you've also got to control the light in Australia. I've literally seen, you know, with use of skylights and things in the Australian environment, uncontrolled, like with no external louvers or anything, I've seen the light from those sort of skylights literally burn furniture.

Jenny: Definitely never happened here. Well, if it has, listener, please let us know if it happened to you. But as far as I'm aware, we've never had that issue. 

Georgina: Maybe you have other issues with heat loss. 

Kate: You know something I did in my last house, we had a kind of, I wouldn't say a glass box, [00:06:00] but definitely a more modern extension on a Victorian house.

And we did an overhang. Now some people would think an overhang is to keep out the sun, but it was actually to keep out the rain in Ireland. It meant that we could have our back doors or our kind of bifolding doors open all the time and still use the space, you know. That's so 

Georgina: sensible. I always say to my clients, like, make sure you have a reasonable size overhang over your big doors because of the rain.

Like, actually in Sydney, we get a lot of rain as well. Probably not as much as Ireland. We get a lot of rain, even, yeah, by world standards. In general, what we've found in terms of terrace houses, is that it can be really effective to include a internal courtyard. So even if it's only small, just that strategy really helps to bring light into the plan, the deeper part of the plan where you're not getting any light from the sides.

So effectively, you're bringing it down from above, but instead of just having a skylight, you sort of [00:07:00] bring a little light well in. 

Jenny: So this is fully inside like an outside sectioned off space, so you're literally just looking at an outside garden. Would you be able to access it or is this something that?

Georgina: We often use this as a strategy where you can access it. It brings natural light ventilation into all the surrounding spaces. I mean, it's not big enough probably to go and sit out there unless you have a, you can, but it might be two by two or three by three, something like that. But it can be really nice just to have that little flash of green and natural world, I suppose.

Often the front rooms of a terrace or a older home are quite dark because they only have light from the front. So this strategy provides light from the back as well and all around. 

Kate: Talking about period homes and like you said, we have, I don't know, I think there's like 10, 000 on our record of protected structures in Ireland.

So that means they're like protected inside and out. [00:08:00] You're not really allowed change to look at them from the outside and a lot of the internal layout as well. But some of them are not protected. People are still dealing with those homes as well, so I don't even know what the full number is of like, period kind of homes in Ireland, but I'm sure it's in the tens if not hundreds of thousands.

I don't know. Yeah, easily. A lot of questions in around this. One that came up a few times actually was, how do you pick an architect for a period home? Like, what should you be looking for and how do you know they know 

Georgina: period home? When I'm asked this question, actually my advice is always kind of the same.

I just think when you're looking for an architect, just look at the work they've done and see if you can imagine yourself living in that kind of work. I think that's the very best way. I mean, you get a sense of, I guess, an architect's natural, like what they're naturally gonna do if you just look at their past work.

I mean, it's very simple. And I'd say look for someone who likes old homes. Some architects are a bit rejecting of that heritage aspect [00:09:00] maybe. And you can see in their work, their work has no relationship to heritage. I guess when we're approaching a heritage project, I just always like to say I would hate for any new extension or any new work that we implement to feel like it just landed from outer space and, you know, landed on the back of the building.

I think that's not my style. So I guess anyone who is looking at my work would say that the work that we've done sits comfortably alongside the old. It's not necessarily trying to mimic it, but I love old homes, I love to celebrate those characteristics and highlight them and then make modern amenity to sit alongside it.

But I think that would be evident from looking at the architect's work, like, I think that would be the most easy way to identify whether a person is the right architect for you. And then I think you could obviously dig a bit deeper and talk to them about their sort of [00:10:00] experience in old homes. One thing I'd also say is that actually may not be evident from the stylistic elements of the architect, like one thing I think with working with very old homes, as we've sort of touched on earlier, is that often old homes are very space constricted.

I just feel that one of the really, really important things is to apply a lot of rigor with the layout and the planning of the way the home is going to work. And there really is no room for wasted space or, you know, fluffing about with space. So that's one thing that might not be evident. It'd be hard to identify the right architect in that sense.

Jenny: And we always say that on this podcast, we always say, whenever you're designing any room, think about how you're going to use it first. But I think Georgina, one thing you said earlier is so important in that context of making best use of space. And if you go back to that concept of a light well or a, you know, a [00:11:00] courtyard garden in a room, making the best use of space, you know, making sure there's no wastage and all that doesn't mean cramming every single nook and cranny with storage either.

And I think that's a really important one for listeners because my house is very, very tiny and while it's not necessarily a period Victorian property, it was built in the 1890s, which is quite old. Trying to make it usable to live in and get enough storage into it is important, but I've still left, you know, empty space very much on purpose.

So that it doesn't feel crammed in and full of stuff that is not necessary. 

Georgina: I guess one thing I would say is that I see a lot of houses, like I review probably up to 50 plans a month from all over the world. So I see a lot of, you know, a lot of the time people will send me their proposals and I'll review them and try and improve them.

So I see a lot of plans and one thing that I notice people often doing with period type of homes is they might implement some sort of internal courtyard trying to do the right thing. So they're [00:12:00] trying to do this thing that's really good. But then instead of allowing that courtyard to benefit the spaces around it, they kind of cram up all the areas around it with like things like.

laundries or bathrooms or sort of utility spaces. It's so the wrong direction. Like you say, you need to give, like, allow that generous act, like of putting in a courtyard to actually benefit the primary spaces in your home, like, so that you don't feel claustrophobic and you, you feel good. 

Kate: I'm actually going to jump into something really controversial because you're talking about spaces and making these old spaces work and a lot of these Victorian homes, my last home was exactly the same.

Typically have like a back kitchen and it would have been a working kitchen like, and then the family would have been in the reception rooms at the front. So what you're left with in a lot of these old homes is kind of like a, some people call it the Christmas tree floor at the front. But this is formal room that isn't used very much for anything except [00:13:00] a Christmas tree and a big formal dining table.

And everyone lives in the basement, right? Because the kitchen is now at the basement kind of level or the, a few steps down at least and then backs out into the garden. But they're not huge spaces. And a lot of Irish people like to put something on an island because we love an island. And some people like to put a hob on an island or a sink on an island.

And I know you've got strong, strong thoughts on that. 

Georgina: You've brought up a thing there that's so true. Just the way these homes evolved. I mean, it's the same in terrace houses like you would have a lot of or bungalows or any kind of home that was built a fairly long time ago. The kitchen was sort of built at the back and often it was serviced by maybe other people entirely.

Nowadays we have this expectation we're going to have this indoor outdoor living and there's this the kitchens have become the thing at the back that's in this sort of general living, dining, open plan space. [00:14:00] Yeah. The sort of overall format of houses and especially kitchens has just changed so much nowadays.

I think it's probably true even in Ireland. It's the same thing as it is here. It sounds like where you're having kitchens back onto the, some sort of backyard and you're trying to get a lot of light in and probably the family uses that space. a lot, I would imagine. So in that format, I guess, I guess the opinion I've kind of formed over 20 odd years of designing houses has been that the kitchen is this sort of, it really is the heart of the home.

It's kind of, It usually I prefer to place them at the guts of the circulation. So like this is also a bit controversial. Like I like to place the kitchen sort of at the center of the home in what I call the worst part of the home, not directly on the outside. I think it's better to liberate those spaces that have the most benefit from access to [00:15:00] the outside.

liberate them for like living rooms and dining and those sort of things and have the kitchen just a bit further back so that you're not blocking that access to the outside. Bit more essential then. Definitely. I just think it sort of allows the benefit of the outside light, like say if you're getting a lot of light in through your back doors, if you don't have the kitchen right there, you kind of allow that light to penetrate deeper into the plan and benefit.

everything. I just find very often it works better to pull the kitchen back a little bit, still looks over all this lovely bright space. But pull it back a little bit into a more central spot. So also you can often get better utility that way. Like, you know, there might be some blank walls you can use for tall utility, like really provide a kitchen that's well supported with.

By tall utility, I mean like your fridges, your pantries, [00:16:00] double ovens, your appliance cabinets, and just all this stuff. 

Kate: What are your thoughts on talking about tall cabinets? We have a non sign here of how you get up to a wall cabinet. 

Jenny: Just a caveat, I personally, in small spaces, really don't like overhead cabinets.

I prefer one wall that's floor to ceiling, like all the way up to the top, and then the rest of it, I don't like overhead cabinets. I'm fine with open shelving or hooks, but I don't like overhead cabinets. 

Georgina: I will die on this hill. I agree with you. I have come to this position over some years. I wasn't always a believer in that method, but more recently, I've definitely come to the position where I feel it's better to consolidate your tall utility.

Yeah. If you have room for whatever tall utility you have room for, like be that minimum is a fridge. and probably a small pantry, you know, then you can get big if you have more space, more wall space available for the tall stuff. But then what I call your work zone, which [00:17:00] is the, probably the area that you have your sink and your cooktop in.

And then a lot of people just overhead cabinets. in, because I think they think that's what you need to do in a kitchen. I've found that over time, if you optimize your other storage, like through drawers or whatever you do really well, you usually don't actually need the upper cabinets. I agree with you, I find them a little bit claustrophobic.

I just don't like to be working with like stuff over my head and they're always open and 

Kate: They're 

Georgina: a 

Kate: danger! You could hit your head and die. You could hit your head and die. And I think historically as well, they were never a clean line because you had like an extractor or whatever. Whereas now with the advent of like downdraft extractors, you can have a flushed line of balls and you don't have to necessarily have them at a a specific height for the extraction to work, someone said they were interested in keeping the ovens low.

So say you didn't have the opportunity for a low to high bank and high level ovens, [00:18:00] what are your thoughts on kind of the range ovens or like cookers below the counter? 

Georgina: In my house, I've got just a oven underneath a bench and a cooktop. I think that's absolutely fine. I don't, unfortunately, I'm not in the position of being able to have a lot of the tall utility and so having the double ovens and things, it'd be great, but I don't have space.

So, and it works just fine. I can imagine for a lot of people that would work just fine. And if 

Kate: you absolutely have to have something on the island, you have to fit a house on the island. Would you prefer a end or a middle? This is a question actually from someone. I'm actually sold on a clean island. I'm used to convince my husband, right?

He's like, no, we're putting it on the island again. I'm like, let's just get off the island and move to space. People are really divided on that point. 

Georgina: It's a very emotional point, it seems. 

Kate: Yeah, it is for sure, because I think some people like the idea that you're entertaining while you're cooking.

Dandruff extractors, again, you've nothing above your head, so it's kind of clear. Some [00:19:00] people like the dandelions. We won't go into that just now. 

Georgina: My sort of theory is That you spend a lot longer probably prepping, you know, like you might be cutting, you might be doing that with a friend there or your kids might be helping you and what have you.

But then when it actually comes to the cooking, like unless you're like a teppanyaki chef or something like where you're like making a show of it, I just don't believe you're going to be spending as much time like at the pot. as you would think. And then I just think for the compromise of the utility.

So in my mind, it's the same in my home. Like I don't have a huge kitchen. My island is so many things. It serves so many purposes. And the minute I put a hob in it or a sink in it, it just really compromises that clear prep space, the clear space for maybe buffets and things like that. Not to mention the other thing of like, it just looks [00:20:00] messy.

to see constant dishes, or unless you're an extremely tidy. 

Kate: Jenna's an extremely tidy person, I will say. I've been here a lot and I've never seen the place messy, ever. Would we say neurotic? 

Jenny: Potentially a little bit. But I think with The Hub, there is also, you're totally right about the kind of fantasy of cooking and serving versus reality.

There's also the reality of splatter. Splatter. So if somebody's sitting opposite you with no barrier and they're at your hub and you're clipping 

Georgina: something last minute, you know. I would not have my family sitting around me when I'm doing that. Any extractor is horribly loud in my opinion. I'm yet to have someone show me a range hood that actually works that's not loud.

Jenny: I would jump in and say I don't find it louder than the overhead extractor, but it's not quiet. 

Georgina: Yeah, I think that'd be fair. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. It's like the fantasy of cooking and then the reality of life. And I mean, it's a nice idea to have people bustling around and you're cooking and you're [00:21:00] being hospitable, but I think that that vibe can be well achieved with.

Uh, probably better achieved with an island that is an island and you can be prepping there and that's great. You can have a drink. You can serve a drink. You can serve a buffet. Yeah. For me, it's just about that multifunctional thing. I don't want to waste any space or. 

Kate: In these old houses as well, there's tends to be like a couple of steps down.

Like some of them are a full basement, but what are your thoughts on levels from like kitchen, living, dining kind of spaces? Do you think they're just stupid and dangerous? Should they be all one? It's so 

Georgina: important in these sort of houses to get the levels right, particularly between whatever space is at the back.

and your backyard. If there's a big level change between your back living area and your backyard, that's a problem because your backyard will never get used. So what we normally try and do here is try to put that back level as close as possible [00:22:00] to the back outdoor area. just so that that's the way you get really good usage of the outdoor and the indoor and, you know, all of that, because you don't want to be wasting an outdoor space just as much as you don't want to be wasting an indoor one.

What we normally try and do is just try to consolidate the level change. To a place that's going to be sensible. For example, often we'll have a level change between maybe the old part of the house and the new part of the extension or something, but we'll try to consolidate the level change to be, you know, in one set of stairs if possible, and not like.

two steps in the middle of your open plan area, like, because that will tend to be a problem. 

Jenny: Where you could forget it exists and trip over it pretty easily. Like, and it's nice, I think what you were saying there as well, works so well for zoning. Like you're moving physically from one space and one environment into a new one.

And so that level of change, the physicality of it 

Georgina: makes sense. A hundred percent. Like, so that will help you [00:23:00] with that. You know, we were talking before about, you know, how to design maybe a sympathetic extension that feels comfortable with that old style of home. That transition point can really help. A change of level can be lovely.

It can be quite dramatic to sort of come to that point and then the floor drops down and it creates a taller zone, perhaps at the back. 

Kate: I think I saw one on the local project one time and I have it pinned like as one of my favorite kitchens ever where the kitchen galley area was dropped. But then that meant the island on the far side Had standards, the height stools, the peninsular, the island was what split the lower galley section of the kitchen and the other living space.

So then there was short stools on the high side of the kitchens, they were kind of looking down into the person working in the kitchen, which was quite cool. It was a real kind of Japanese, kind of Japanese style house, it was amazing. 

Jenny: I actually think your answer earlier, Georgina, about moving the kitchen away from the very end.

I think what we tend to do is build an extension. Usually it's L shaped. [00:24:00] We put the kitchen in the back, a sliding door goes along the side, and that kind of shoves the kitchen shape into a bit of a narrower galley style, maybe? Sometimes there's nothing you can do about that because that's flung, and that's where, you know, unless you're doing a huge, big renovation, that's where you have to keep it.

Georgina: That type of pattern of extension can be a problem because it lengthens the house and provides more space sort of in the middle where you're not getting any light. So yeah, I often see that sort of thing proposed where, um, people inadvertently make the problems worse. They might end up with a nice new kitchen and that might be nice, but then everything back from that is not very nice.

Jenny: Though if you do have like a long space available to you for a kitchen and maybe Right now, moving that plumbing just isn't really an option. Any tips for Leigh Anne? 

Georgina: I would move the plumbing. 

Kate: Yeah. Not what you want to hear. You know if we're taking the hob [00:25:00] off the island, so a lot of the time then you'd have a lawnmower in a unit and then along a wall somewhere that houses your sink and your hob now.

What are your thoughts on one of those being under a window? So like, do you think it's better to have a sink under a window or a hob under a window or does it matter? 

Georgina: Definitely a sink. I think you can do both, but it's often the case that if you have a, a hob there, depending on the range you would like.

There's just likely to be a few more limitations on the height of the window. Are you going to compromise the window in some way by having the cooktop there? And also it does mean that your window is getting very dirty. But yeah, it's not usually my preference to put a hob under a window. If you've got a window, like enjoy the window, make the most of the window because you're getting light into the side of your kitchen or what have you.

That's fantastic. I wouldn't want to compromise the window. 

Jenny: I know what I said about overhead cabinets, but I'm fine with hooks or maybe some narrow open shelving, something that won't get too messy around the hob. Really usable stuff. So all my pots are hanging above my [00:26:00] hob, you know, some of my measuring spoons.

I like being able to grab that, which you can't do with the windows there. 

Georgina: Yeah. Yeah. I think my problem with overhead cabinets is also that it's actually not that practical. Like hooks are one thing. Yeah, sure. Grab the pan you need, but to have a cabinet there, my other argument against it is it's not great storage.

Like you'd be better off storing your glassware in a drawer. Most people aren't tall enough to reach the top of the cabinets anyway. 

Kate: And God forbid you put cabinets that didn't finish up at the ceiling. Why? You have a stupid, dusty, greasy gap. 

Jenny: Why is it so common? I just tell you, like, I know it's very high.

Don't get me wrong, but so was the top of the cabinet anyway. And then people just end up shoving things in there. It looks so messy. Ugh! 

Georgina: A lot of people do ask that question though, you're right. It never occurred to me to stop the cabinets short of the ceiling. Now I do need to get a little 

Jenny: step ladder out when I need to get the things from the top of the cabinets.

I don't do it every day and that will depend on whether [00:27:00] I have them built up to the top or whether there's just a gap there where I've shoved in an old Christmas decoration 

Kate: or not. So, talking about layouts, we're talking a bit more about, I suppose, the inside of the house and we did have a few questions.

Bye. One person said that, you know, they got along well with their architect's plans, but now that it's come to the inside of the house, the planning isn't going great, and another person said They want to continue with the builds, but they don't want to continue with the architect. So they have their full planning permission and everything.

What do you do in that scenario? Is it like go get an interior designer, an interior architect? Do you start fresh? 

Georgina: Yeah. I mean, look, I saw one question that was, um, you know, they've got full planning permission and now just are not happy to proceed with the same architect. I think. It's good you've got the planning permission.

I guess one thing that's been brought up with me lately, and I don't know if it's the same in Ireland actually, it's been told to me that you need to make very sure that you've terminated your contract with your existing architect. So that's just one thing to maybe watch out for. Quite strict about that [00:28:00] here with architects.

So just make sure it's all on above board and everything. And then I think absolutely, you could go and look for another architect or an interior designer. So if the relationship's not working, I mean, It won't get better through building process. That's for sure. I think those are words to live by. A lot of people approach me and.

you know, they may have worked with other people. I think this is more to answer the other person's question, which was something about, I think their current architect, their strength is really not the internal planning or getting the functionality right or something like that. I think that's not necessarily everybody's strength.

That's definitely something where we can help people. Like we offer our layout reviews and that's, I guess that's our specialty. 

Jenny: It's a great kind of noncommittal step actually to take, isn't it? Maybe just get a second opinion, a layer of view, and that could steer you towards, you know what, there's a much better option out there and it's worth it to switch or actually maybe what you have isn't as bad as you think, you know.

Exactly. 

Georgina: And I think [00:29:00] I always say to people, I think it's just so important to be a hundred percent confident in your layout at the first instance. And I meet so many people who are not. I think a lot of people spend a lot of time doubting themselves, wondering if they're wrong or something. When I think if you've got that feeling that you're not sure, you've got to find out.

I mean, you've got to be in a position where you feel a hundred percent confident that your layout is something you want to move forward with because to move forward with a layout that you're unsure about or you've got reservations on. 

Kate: Or isn't going to suit your stage in life, maybe? Like some, we were talking about earlier, styles, like, I love looking at minimal houses in magazines, but I also have two toddlers, so.

Jenny: And the second you throw a jacket over a chair, the 

Kate: whole look is just ruined, I think. Yeah, yeah. Much as I love looking at them too, I just. And then talking about high cabinets, I was installing an Ikea kitchen for my mom, who's kind of old enough. Sorry mom. But like, accessing those high [00:30:00] cabinets is just a non runner obviously for her.

She's not going to step up on a stepladder or a little step stool or whatever. So like, any tips around designing for stages of life, you know, like, I don't know, how do you do that or how do you go about that? 

Georgina: I really feel that the principles of good layout design apply across all phases of life. So if you were to, I don't know, say if you were fortunate enough to buy your forever home when you were very young, I would still say that if you designed the house correctly, In a layout sense, not so much finishes sense, but we can talk about that later.

But in a layout sense, I still think that the best layout would serve you well through all phases of your life because the best layout is designed also with. a certain amount of flexibility in mind. You know, when we're designing rooms, you know, you could say that we're talking about this today, like say you design a house with four [00:31:00] bedrooms, but you haven't had any kids yet.

You could have a four bedroom house. And that if you didn't have kids at that point in your life, you could enjoy one room as your dressing room and a study and like piano room or what have you. And then as you get older, they become bedrooms. And then maybe as you get older again, they can become things that, I don't know, a craft room or whatever it is you want to enjoy in your life.

So, I mean, that's an example with bedrooms, but it could be, it's the same with living spaces and so on. Like, that's just honestly my belief. I think that if it's designed well to start with, it will serve you well through all life stages. 

Kate: I also think there's similarities with toddlers and the elderly when it comes to designing spaces, benches, high things, I don't want anything high in my house because my toddler will climb up on it, so it's like, there's some similar principles.

Georgina: And it has to be easy and self evident, like say, for example, dump zones, like, if you [00:32:00] ever want anyone in your house to put things away, It has to be easier for them to put things away than not. 

Jenny: Simplicity is really difficult. Reviewing layouts constantly is really the only way to get good at planning layout.

It comes down to making your life as easy as possible. Seamless you come in first, you take off your jacket, you take off your coat, have somewhere to put that then. Or you suddenly kick your shoes off, like be realistic about your life and not your 

Georgina: dream, you know. Having somewhere to sit down to take off your shoes is really important because, you know, not just for an old person, but you know, for anyone.

It's just a good idea. Like, you want to sit down when you take off your shoes. You don't want to just kick them off and then they'll end up flung across the room. 

Jenny: Because some of my shoes have straps or buckles or they need to be laced or something. So having somewhere to sit is really handy. 

Kate: We spoke about this in our layouts episode, actually.

And I had a client that put all this amazing bank of storage in their hallway. And they were like, I said, what are you planning for all these cabinets? And they said, Oh, for coats. I'm like, they're behind a door and no one's going to use [00:33:00] them. If I have to open a door to get a hanger and hang up a jacket, it's going to be on your newel post.

Jenny: The one thing I would say for designing your home for longevity, especially if you move into later stages of life, but actually for guests or anything, is a bathroom downstairs because there may be a point when living downstairs and taking stairs out of the equation makes your life a lot easier. So if you can get a shower in there, all the better.

Georgina: Every home needs a bathroom on every level. In really small homes, it's probably difficult or unrealistic to achieve, but in anything but the smallest of homes, we always try and fit a bathroom on every level. I'm not one for like en suites for every room or anything like that. I think, you know, that's above and beyond.

It would be nice to have maybe one for the parents, but you know, not always achievable. But I think that basic thing of just one bathroom on every level. 

Jenny: It's something I see and I don't know if this is, I don't [00:34:00] mean to damn any culture here, but whenever I'm watching property renovation programs.

Americans seem to have, their bathrooms always outnumber their bedrooms. You know, you'll get into these mansions and they're like, it has 

Georgina: five bedrooms and 12 bathrooms. You're like, what are you doing in all these bathrooms? There's also, in the American homes, I find there's a certain, um, configuration.

Every room has an ensuite. and a kind of walk in, it's what they call a walk in wardrobe. It's not generous. It's a broom closet. It's like 1. 8 meters squared, provides very poor actual clothes storage, takes up quite a lot of square meterage and compromises the bathroom and the bedroom. 

Kate: But I think a lot of people I love the idea when they're building a home, especially when they're doing a big renovation, they say, Oh, I'm going to have a walk in wardrobe.

Maybe you need it if it's like literally a huge room dedicated to it, but unless it's a certain space and you have a mansion, it is a poor use of space pretty much. [00:35:00] 

Georgina: I'm on your side. I absolutely agree. I mean, look, I would love a walk in dressing room. Like if I had a mansion, but unless I can afford to give over an entire room, like the size of a bedroom, like proper room, then walk in wardrobes are a waste of space.

I just made a video actually, I was trying to draw that point for people because I see this so often. It's just on my mind a bit. I see this scenario so often where people are cramming walk in closets into their bedroom, like completely ruining the bedroom. or any chance of an en suite and Like, it's not even good storage for clothing.

Kate: You've no space, a lot of the time, to stand back and look at things because you're so crammed up against them. 

Georgina: The worst one I saw this week was a scenario, it was in New York, where, I guess it was technically a walk in robe, but it was in the bathroom. And the toilet is right there, like, so I see some very unusual [00:36:00] scenarios anyway, but I think a well designed cupboard.

is the best thing for clothing and you can customize that to suit your own, you know, types of clothing and preferences in terms of how you like to store things, but a nice built in cupboard with lovely doors or drawers. 

Jenny: Especially these days when we have sliding doors and things like pullout drawers or wardrobes, you know, you can almost turn a space into a walk in wardrobe, but that's necessarily dedicated to it.

Georgina: Absolutely. And the reason they're not efficient is that. You know, the walk in closets have to contain a spot for you to stand, like it can't share that space with the overall room, if that makes sense. So it's just inefficient and not good for clothes storage. 

Kate: What are the other big mistakes you see people make in renovations in terms of layout?

So we've spoken about kitchen stuff, we've spoken about walk in wardrobe. Any other specific ones 

Georgina: you see come up? The placement of the kitchen, like I mentioned before, is a [00:37:00] huge one. Most often people get that wrong. The other one I'd say is stairs. I know with a lot of heritage homes, it's kind of set where the staircase has to at least commence.

I do find when left to their own devices, people will put them like in completely the wrong spot, which completely ruins any chance that they have of a good layout. So some people ask 

Kate: us like, 180 centimeters is a big bed, right? And if you've any kind of bed frame, like that takes another 20, 30 centimeters either side, it's actually a big headboard, some people like to put lockers in there as well, like some people were asking us what's the kind of best way of doing that because our bedrooms aren't huge in a lot of the houses we're talking about here so best layouts for kind of big beds in 

Georgina: rooms.

The very minimum I say counts as a bedroom is three meters by three meters. So a wardrobe will be like 600 millimeters deep. So I'd say the very minimum is 3. 6 by [00:38:00] 3 meters. But you're going to struggle to get a king bed in that room. So I think to get a king bed, you just upsize that a little bit. So I think 3.

5 by 3. 5 plus the 600 millimeters of wardrobe, something like that would be the minimum I'd be working to. 

Kate: I actually have a tiny bedroom at the moment and we're planning to renovate, but we have a 180 bed. We had a 180 bed in our last place, but like the bed frame we had was a four poster in our last one.

Cause you'd think tall ceilings, whatever, like that was not going to fly. So I got this bed frame. It's actually a steel frame by a Danish company called Moebe, but it has little half moon bedside tables kind of built onto the frame. So it almost looks like it's just a mattress floating with these little bedside tables, It is the best use of space I've ever done in a bedroom, I think.

Jenny: I love built 

Kate: in 

Jenny: tables on the bed frame. 

Georgina: It's like layout that we use most frequently in a small bedroom, a bed frame with no excess. And then the little half moon things that [00:39:00] we usually, we usually just make them out of a piece of marble or something or timber. It's brilliant. And then you mount the light on the wall as well, like the little bedside on the wall.

That's just really space efficient. 

Kate: And you know what? It's an unpopular decision, but I think if you have a bedside locker, you just fill it with crap. 100%. All you need is maybe your phone if you like to sleep beside your phone. Like you said, a wall light maybe for reading and your book and a glass of water.

Georgina: Just a ledge and that avoids the filling it with crap. And I don't like it touching the floor anyway. You've nailed it. It's the right sort of approach to go for that very lightweight type of thing in a small room. So we've one controversial 

Jenny: topic left to get to, which I'm coming around to. Before that, one thing that I didn't plan well into this house, my little house, and I get questions on a lot, is laundry space and utility space and how to, you know, how You know, where do you hang your clothes?

How do you make sure that you don't have these like racks of socks and graying knickers [00:40:00] greeting your guests as they come over for dinner? And it's hard when you're working with limited space because as much as I'd love to have a dedicated laundry room I'm never going to have that. Do you have any learned advice for where you hang out your laundry if you don't want to be using a dryer all the time?

Georgina: I know it's really hard with these really small homes to fit in a dedicated laundry. We try, like we always try, because I think a laundry is just great to have a laundry that's a bit bigger. dedicated. Sometimes we manage to do it as a sort of pass through to get to the powder room. Depends on the layout but sometimes that works quite well.

The other really important thing I think is occasionally in apartments or really small spaces we're able to find a small zone of tall utility like what might otherwise be a tall utility along a maybe along a corridor or something. If it's a little bit long you can often fit a rail above, like have your laundry [00:41:00] facilities, like you wash a dryer down below a bench.

And then it works really, really well to have like a long rail. in that space. So whether that's a dedicated actual room or even more like the European style, but just create as long as you can. And then you can hang your stuff behind the doors, you know, and I find often that those zones work very well for drying things because of the extraction.

I think in a laundry environment, you'll usually have quite a powerful extraction fan. I've got a laundry myself in my terrace, but it's in my basement. Not an area that you'd think normally is drying or good for drying stuff or whatever, but it's absolutely brilliant because it's long and the extraction fans and things just create this environment that's just perfect for drying stuff.

And you can achieve that in a cupboard or you can achieve that in a room, just depends on the layout. But I think [00:42:00] often it's well worth putting that effort in to try to find a place for it. 

Kate: Yeah, our last house, we didn't really have the space for a dedicated utility space or laundry room. So we kind of built a bank of cabinetry in our kitchen that housed a lot of utilities.

But I was trying so hard not to do that again, because I found we were in the kitchen a lot. The washing machine on SpinCycle is loud. Even if you have dampers in there, even if you have double doors, you can still hear it. And when you've got a family, 

Georgina: I just don't think that's acceptable. Like you've pretty much got to find a place.

that's going to be your shut the door laundry. You know, if you're living just a couple or something like that, it's a bit less critical. But if you're going into that phase of life where you have family, you need a laboratory. I'm sorry. Even if you had to have it in an outhouse, I would do it. Like even if you had to have it somewhere else, like in a basement, you know, there'd be nowhere I could have it in my main floor [00:43:00] of my house.

Kate: There's actually a lot of European kind of holiday rentals you'd go to and they'd have the washing machine in the bathroom. 

Jenny: Yeah, we both lived in the Netherlands for a period of time and there, it was really common to have the washing machine in the bathroom there, which makes sense. And I know in Japan, every bathroom is fitted with one of those compressor extractors because they have very commonly clothes racks and clothes horses that, you know, the extensible ones that come from the ceiling and they'll dry in there.

Georgina: I still think though, if it's a family situation, you need your laboratory. Like I've lived in apartments too with it in the bathroom and it's, I just think you've got to work very hard to try for that utility. Like, it's just a realistic part of life. It's going to have to fit somewhere. 

Kate: Back on a bit more of a styling question, we actually had two questions on this about mixing woods.

So like, Oh, I have such strong feelings about this. Wood kitchens are very popular again. And so like a lot of people have wood floors then and that run into the kitchen. What do you think about mixing woods, like a dining table, kitchen and the [00:44:00] floors? How do you get it right? 

Georgina: I do feel at some point it becomes a timber party.

It's a fine line. And I guess you've got to kind of use your own judgment as to what's going to become too much. I love timber floors. That would be my starting point, I guess. And then often I quite like to do timber in a kitchen in the tall units. Like it can look beautiful. We do timber islands as well.

I don't really like timber island benchtops. I find them hard to keep clean, actually, because they just, they stain quite easily. They stain easily, you get water in them. I think there's better materials for that purpose, just practically speaking. I guess, you know, if you really, really wanted that farmhouse look, I mean.

Kate: So you say you like timber floors. What about concrete floors? My favorite, terrazzo. This is another thing that's up for debate in my renovation. My husband's like, a little bit on the [00:45:00] fence. I'm like, please, I didn't get it last time. So I want to do like wood in my reception rooms and all the new parts of the terrazzo.

Georgina: No, terrazzo can be amazing and it's really good for underfloor heating. The heat transfer is really good. And then you can kind of go a lot harder on your timber. Like if you wanted timber in your island and things, it's fine. You're not going to have a timber party problem. 

Jenny: We have very aligned views on the timber.

Like I have seen timber kitchens I love that have timber flooring. So if you're someone that has that, I'm not saying ask your kitchen. But my personal preference based on no professional experience is clashing timbers up against each other isn't for me. So I'd far prefer the terrazzo floor or the polished concrete floor and then the timber 

Georgina: frame.

I think, you know, if you want to do terrazzos as a floor, that's just a really great opportunity to experiment with a slightly different style. You'll be able to warm up the palette with timber in your kitchen island. It's just a chance to try something a bit different. 

Jenny: I think contrasting [00:46:00] materials in general is just a good guideline to go with when you want to, you know, bring some warmth and style and depth into your house.

I don't love layering the same material. 

Kate: Yeah, I agree. And polished concrete terrazzos, It's a lovely blank palette, kind of, and I know Taranto has got colour and detail in it, but it's so minimal in terms of joins and everything and detail on the floor then that everything else can be a bit busier, but I think key in Ireland is it has to be heated because otherwise I think it'll be freezing.

And what about limewash walls? You had another question on that. Good. I mean, limewash 

Georgina: walls, we call it, I don't know if this is politically correct. We call it the poor man's polished plaster. Like we've done a few renovations ourselves in the office. Like all of us just renovate our houses all the time.

So we've done it ourselves in our houses and it looks really good. Would you take that up onto the ceiling? I generally wouldn't. It's the same with the polished plaster or the Venetian plaster. We usually just do it on the walls and that's a beautiful effect. almost blurry, [00:47:00] dreamy looking texture. It's very subtle.

I think the lime wash gives a similar effect. 

Jenny: We've come all this way and we've talked about lighting and we've talked about peninsulas and we haven't talked about lighting on peninsulas or on islands. Pendant lighting on kitchen islands. How do we 

Georgina: feel about it? Just something that occurs to me when I see them.

I, it does make me think of the warming station like you see in a restaurant. I guess it's something that's happened to me as I've done more and more designs of people's houses. In the past, I've definitely done pendants over islands. But more recently, I find I'm doing it less and less. I guess that's because, first of all, I think they give not great task lighting.

So I think in your kitchen, very first thing in terms of lighting you need to resolve is that you need to have excellent task lighting. I tend to think of pendants as being more a feature lighting type of thing. Um, I found that the task lighting is [00:48:00] best achieved by downlights usually on an island. So it has to be somewhere where your head's not going to create a shadow.

The placement of the downlight has to be suitable, probably in the center of the island. And then I also started to find there were maybe better ways to create a vibe. Probably one of the main reasons you want to. use feature lighting in a kitchen is to create a feeling or, you know, like jewelry for your home.

You know, it's a beautiful feature light is fantastic. And I would always recommend you really invest in finding the right feature light for your home that really expresses your personality and you know, the personality you're trying to create in your kitchen. I've found that actually, especially once you get rid of the, um, cabinets above the work zone, you know, the upper cabinets.

you have other opportunities for feature lighting, like wall lighting, things like that. [00:49:00] And also potentially pendants might be better utilized somewhere else, like maybe over a dining table or, you know, especially when you have an open plan kitchen living dining space. I just would encourage people to look around the whole room.

and think where would be my best opportunities for some feature lighting? And I've been finding often the answer is not over the kitchen. It might be more over the dining table or even wall sconces around the living area, or it's better to think of it as a total, not just, Oh, it's a kitchen. I need to have pendants over the island because that's what every picture of a kitchen looks like.

It's not that I would never do it. And I have done it plenty of times in the past. I just find I'm doing it less and less as I begin to sort of open my mind to more the space as a whole and what's right in that context. 

Kate: And you talk about like spotlights or downlights. What are your thoughts on that [00:50:00] kind of lighting in period homes?

Sometimes I find they look a bit out of place or something, spots 

Georgina: and downlights. I definitely am not a fan of the thing where you like spray your ceiling with downlights. And that's just unimaginative and stupid. You do have to sort of, when you're laying your light out, often downlights are the best solution as a base for your lighting.

That's not to say that that's all you do. Usually we'll have a grid of downlights or something like that to provide the basic kind of functional lighting. And then we'll look around the room and think, well, where are the, you know, the places where people might be gathering for a drink or, You know, where they might want some optionality in the lighting.

So we might put like a pendant there or a couple of wall lights, you know, to create a lovely little zone where people can have a bit of a feeling of intimacy, you know, like a bit. 

Jenny: Overhead lighting. It's not for me. I'll tolerate [00:51:00] task lighting, overhead spotlights where necessary. So maybe in bathrooms and definitely obviously in kitchen work areas, everywhere else I really want to fuse wall lighting, wall counters, lamps.

It's just not flattering. 

Georgina: No, absolutely. Like if you put ceiling light directly above your head, you're going to look like a ghoul, like. 

Kate: I was on holidays recently and really nice hotel, but like. all down lights in the bathroom. I didn't even want to leave for dinner every night. I felt like I looked so hideous.

You're a little bit like glowy slash sunburnt maybe because we're Irish. And then like my makeup just looked horrendous in the light. I was like, do I look this bad? I had to actually go out and check it on my phone because the down light was 

Georgina: so hot. You just will, no matter how attractive you are. If the light comes from right above your head, it'll be throwing shadows right down your face.

So, I mean, that's a really good point though. I 

Jenny: think we've touched on almost every room in the house. I think we've covered almost every aspect. Is there anything we've forgotten? Is there any major tips, mistakes, nuggets you want to leave people with? [00:52:00] 

Kate: We've touched on a lot of things. I mean we could go for hours.

I am settled in with a cup of coffee. If you want to go for hours, I suggest going to Georgina's page and going through all the videos. Georgina Wilson Associates on Instagram. You'll find a huge amount of information there. Yeah, and check out Ask an Architect as well, if you're a bit stumped in your renovation.

Yeah, you need to get a second opinion on some 

Jenny: layouts. 

Kate: Do you have many clients in the UK and Ireland now? Do you work with people 

Georgina: over here? A lot from UK and Ireland actually, yeah. Our service has always been quite popular there. Maybe people think I'm British. Which I am actually born in London. So yeah, originally from over your way.

Jenny: But yeah, I think then that that is it. This has been a huge bumper episode, actually. Yeah. We could have gone on for hours. So, you know, maybe we look forward to having you back someday, Georgina. I think there's just so much more we could cover, but yeah. I think for anyone listening, I mean, you could literally just go back to this episode and sign your [00:53:00] entire renovation ad, but thank you so much for being our guest.

We have loved it. It's been fantastic to meet you both. Check out Georgina Wilson Associates on Instagram for more. If you've been listening to this episode, it's also going to be available on YouTube so you can watch it as well. And until next time, this has been our special episode of Rip It Up with Georgina Wilson and Ask An Architect.

See you again soon, guys. Thank you once again to Floretry for sponsoring this episode and a reminder, if you are planning a wedding, get in touch at floretry.ie and quote "Rip It Up" for a 20 percent discount on their wedding packages.