Episode 36 - Should You Project Manage Your Own Renovation?

Today Jenny and Kate are discussing the pros and cons of project managing your own renovation versus enlisting the services of renovation professionals such as architects, designers, and quantity surveyors. Is it worth the stress to save some money? Let’s get into it.

Transcript

Episode 36 - Should You Project Manage Your Own Renovation

 [00:00:00] 

Podcast Intro

Jen: Welcome to Rip It Up, the renovations podcast. I'm Jenny. I'm Kate. And between us, we've renovated a lot of houses and it hasn't scared us off. In fact, we loved it so much that we can't stop talking about it. So in this podcast, we will give you all the tools and info that you need to tackle your own renovation like a pro.

Episode intro

Today we are discussing the pros and cons of project managing your own renovation versus enlisting the services of renovation professionals, including architects, designers, and quantity surveyors.

Is it worth the stress to try to save some money? Let's get into it.

Podcast intro

Jen: Welcome back to the podcast. Hi Kate. Hi, Jen. You're so close the end of your renovation now. 

Kate: Yes. I feel like I'm getting progressively more stressed every podcast.

record,

I might actually implode by next one, but we'll see. We're, we're nearly there. The end is inside. Anyway, The pretty stuff is starting to go in, so like,

yeah.

Hopefully the next podcast will [00:01:00] be almost the finish line, know. 

Jen: I'm laughing, but 

Kate: the stress is so real. Jesus. Oh, it's unreal. 

Like it's unreal. Yeah. It's

uh, no matter how organized you think you are, to start the end 

becomes chaos.

It's just, there's 

so many. I dunno, intersecting trades and like just literally junctures

between things and things have to marry

up. And it's only when you're right at

the finish line that all those start to kind of come to light.

Whether all the planning was right and worth it and correct and the materials you water right, and suitable and all that.

But

anyway, we're getting there. We're nearly there. we're nearly 

Jen: Yeah. Um, okay. That is what we're gonna dive today then, because if anyone remembers anyone who's been listening for a long time,

way back in episode five, we stepped through the whole renovation process end to end, just to go through like what are the

timings, what, you know, what happens when, what did these terminologies mean, et cetera.

So good, listeners go back and to, but what we're gonna go through today is managing that process yourself. Even If you're

Managing it, you know, [00:02:00] completely end to end, or if you're managing

parts of it,

if

have an architect, if you have a qs,

if you have an interior designer, if your contract is a really good contractor, is a really good project manager,

um, there's so many elements to keep on top of.

And what's worth keeping on top of and

what's worth just outsourcing to somebody

professional to get the job done. Absolutely. 

Kate: Yeah. There is no multitasking, like

home renovation. I'm convinced of it like this,

just.

So, and I think

you, we both said this before in previous by the time you get to a

renovation, the end of a renovation, you have such

decision fatigue like you totally, even if you do have some of the professionals involved, there are so many decisions to be made.

I saw someone say

one time, I was like, I thought an interior designer I.

Was just a luxury item you

have until I had to pick like 40 light

fittings in a day or two. And when you start to actually Todd up, like all the light fittings, all the bathroom fittings, all the, like, there's thousands, there's literally thousands of decisions to be made.

So you better have hell of

a lot of time And [00:03:00] experience or outsource, I would say. 

Jen: and it's something you're putting so much money into and like, it's not like you're going down to Woody's you're looking at five life

fittings who that are mostly the

same and choosing like it is the expertise

that

goes into, you know. Decisions behind what types skirting works where, and do you need, uh, different material to go into bathrooms, and should that be the same as the rest

of the skirting that goes around your house?

And then what happens if you are, I don't know, ceiling lights are not the right, like it's, it's just there's so much experience and so much expertise and so much knowledge that goes into it. So I think like,

because most people are, the majority of people

approaching a renovation doing it for the

first time.

Kate: Yeah.

Jen: so. My advice would be if it is your first time and you afford it, I think worth it to try to get somebody else who knows what they're doing, at least involved to a certain extent.

Kate: Yeah, Some sort of level 

of

help. Um, I think the main reason,

[00:04:00] like, I dunno what 

you think, 

but the pe, the people that decide to manage themselves typically do it on a cost

saving basis. Yeah. Or they're just really hands-on people that want to be involved in every single detail, you know, and they want to oversee it and kind of really manage that process.

But it's not to be kind of, I suppose, underestimated, um, the time it's gonna take. And if you're working a full-time job and you're

thinking of doing this on the side, just know

that it's gonna be all consuming for the whole

length of the

project, I guess. Um, but I.

I know, he's. We've spoken about this loads of times about building kind of like your project plan and your budget trackers and know, your overall

project plan. But I think it's really important if you're gonna be

managing even even elements of your overall

renovation that, you know, at the start, like what end goal is here.

Like is it coming in cheapest? Is it coming in with like a better resale value for the house? Is it

like an aesthetic kind of, um, aim or function?

Or is the functionality of the house you

wanna change? You know, be really, really set and clear what the.

A successful outcome of a renovation is

for you [00:05:00] because it's not the same thing for everyone. Totally. Um, and when you, when you're a bit clearer on that, then you know the elements that are worthwhile managing yourself or

micromanaging yourself even. And what

elements are worthwhile sending out? Professional. That's what I think. 

Jen: And the timeline. So then once you're clear on

that, you know, what you need to have ordered well in advance? Like, Are you getting something custom? Are you getting something that you need to be shipped from abroad?

Which in Ireland as an

island is often the case, you know. What, what are those

timelines?

When do you need to have those decisions

made by, when does the electrician need to have, you know, the electrical layout done? When does the layout have to be done? When do you need to decide where your taps are going? When do you need to decide what layout your life planning is going to be, et cetera? And then finally,

like your compromises. What, what are you willing, like what is the non-negotiable? What are the things that you have to have and where, where can you

flex?

Like if something goes wrong or if something comes in overestimate or your budget gets eaten into, you know, somewhere 

else.

The things that you can scale back on versus what can you not? 

Kate: Yeah, [00:06:00] and it's hard to, it's hard to know all those, right? If you're not very experienced and you don't know how long these things take, but the typical kind of like long lead time, big ticket items that are gonna

affect things like wall to wall measurements, floor levels, all that kind of stuff are your big things like your flooring, your kitchens, your

sanitary where layout, where the toilet wastes are

going. That's a huge one because the toilet waste is like a big, is a four or six inch pipe?

So like that has to go somewhere and outta your,

outta your bathroom. Even a shower

waste, it's a smaller, it's a smaller waste pipe, but it still has to

a route. And whether that route goes out to an external wall and down somewhere, or whether it goes under floor joists and through

floor joists, like all those

kind of complexities have to be kind of decided on

early on. And I think. Being involved in that is, is technical if you haven't done it before, but

it can really bring up headaches later down the line.

If you've bought the wrong

toilet or you, you might have bought a.

Just for an example, a back to wall toilet 

that 

completely encloses [00:07:00] the pipe work and the waste pipe the back. But then you have to take a turn on that waste pipe to get outta the room. Now your toilet's no good, you know, so

it's really important to kind of know your wishlist of things

and finishes stuff like that early on, and what you have

a bit of flex on because you will come up against some unforeseen and some around

and service route and things like that and big

renovations.

So I think nailing down as much as you can in terms of what you want in terms of finishes and functionality and layouts. The earlier you know

that better, whether you're managing yourself or you're working with a main

contractor, I think

Jen: Yeah. So maybe worth then

going through for, for those listening who are thinking about going in a on a renovation, the types of people that can.

Either project, manage this, this for you or help

you project manage it. So probably the first person, if you're doing a full renovation, probably the first person you're going to encounter is an architect.

Kate: mm-hmm. Yep. 

Jen: So So some architects might offer that service where they keep on top of things. They,

know, they might have a kind

of

[00:08:00] project management service. Or at least, at the very least, if you're gonna be doing it yourself, they're a great person to talk to about everything you just mentioned there. Like they will come up with the right layout that will

be, you know. That will make sure that the toilet that you want is exiting where it needs to go to, or that like the most important things like your life is that your flow is maximized,

that your layout works for you and your lifestyle and your

family.

Um, so that's probably like probably a first touch point I suppose, in

terms of who can. Help you manage it. 

Kate: And a lot of people ask me this when I do one-to-ones, um, do I need an architect? I just bought this

house. We just wanna do a small extension. Do I need an architect? Um,

it really depends on

kind of,

suppose, the complexity of what you're doing in the renovation and the size of it and what. Changes you're gonna be

making. Yeah. I would say if you're adding kind of new bathrooms and kitchens, and again, that kind of plumbing and services layouts and

stuff

is change, maybe the glazing is gonna change all that, then I would lean more toward, yes, you do need, need,

an Yeah. If it's a [00:09:00] very basic, very

small

extension, you're planning putting in Pretty basic windows or French doors or sliding doors or something like that. Maybe not. Maybe there's some builders that will be happy work to maybe a looser plan. And you do the, the very

scaled back version of working an

architect where you just get the basic drawings done, basic outlay.

You know, I think architects really come into their own really add value when you have to go through a planning process. Yeah, definitely. Obviously if you have like an old house

Or protected structure. or say like my major now where we're doing pretty much, we're not rejigging the whole house, the overall layups stay the same, but there's a lot of and

rewiring and all that kind of

good stuff. So like that's really complicated. And if you think you could do something like that, direct with the builder and manage that yourself through trades, better know what you're doing because you're gonna come up against a lot of challenges. 

Jen: Yeah, agreed. And it's gonna be the biggest headache on the planet.

And I like, there's, there's a, there are many times in life where like, we might think doing something that's gonna save us [00:10:00] money, and it isn't ultimately like, it's going to be like, there's,

if, if you're, if things happen

in a renovation extend your timeline or that have to be redone or reordered or whatever, like that is going eat away at

your

budget so fast that.

I think often you

can wish that you put a bit of extra cash in upfront

and then save yourself all the time and effort

and cash money in the back. 

Kate: Yeah, 

so like for an architect. And we might move on to some of the other ones, like maybe a designer and qs. And what,

they can add as well. an architect, for me, the value is. If you have a little bit of an intricate space, you're not sure what it looked like or how to maximize like a small garden and

a decent extension, I think an architect is worth their weight in gold.

If you're going if you have to go through complex planning process,

especially if you've like a protect structure, A hundred percent, you're you're just going to need an architect. Um, I think, yeah, like we said, for the more basic, smaller

just box on extension and certain that's all you need and you're certain of, you know, plumbing and wiring [00:11:00] whatever is gonna remain mainly the same.

Mm-hmm. Maybe you can manage direct to trades

direct with your builder there.

Um, but that's where I would see Personally, anyway, the value with an architect. 

Jen: I think it's worked well mentioning like you can get a, you can get an architect, an architect, fully qualified, like architect, to, to do amazing things. There's a, family, I suppose, of, of other professions within that, that broader

sphere that you could look at as well. There's arc, there's

um.

Interior architects where if you're not doing a big massive, like external job, but do want to do a lot of like rejigging of your internal space, then there are interior

architects who can be fantastic at that layout and the redesign, um, of, of a more internal space. Um, and then there's

architectural technicians.

Am I saying Yeah. Am I

saying that term right? Who? Equally, again, if the job is not this huge, like complex, end-to-end renovation can do, uh, an excellent job of, of mapping out that, uh, you know, extension or

small conservatory or whatever it is that you might be putting

onto your house.

Kate: Yeah, And [00:12:00] even architectural services. So if you get a price for an architect, they usually stage their fees.

the initial

stage might be just the design concepts. The next stage might be, um, the drawings for

tender process and the planning application. So that might be stage in drawings. Then there might be another phase with,

um, detail construction drawings and this is where some people might tail off where.

They have a builder

that's happy work to looser plans maybe. Yeah. 

Jen: But then 

Kate: you wanna be involved a lot more yourself. But then if you want to kind of hand off completely. Then that kind of construction drawings. The pro, the project management side then kind

of becomes owner owned by the

the, architect I would say. And you back a little bit. So like you can, you can phase and

stage their, um, their,

part in the process And how far you onboard them as well. I think. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Paul. 

Kate: Um, then Qs, did you use qs? 

Jen: No, I didn't use a Qs. I didn't use the Qs 'cause I love Excel and I, 

Kate: yeah, yeah, 

Jen: I also really trusted my contractor, [00:13:00] so I had a main

contractor I got, he sent me the full

detailed, I think. I wanna say it was

27 pages. It was really long. Anyway. 

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jen: Um, of his quote. And that included every single line item in

it. And I spent loads of

time mapping that into, or copying that into Excel and going through every single thing line by line so that I understood exactly where the money was going.

And then.

I trusted him to get the

best. uh, building

materials for

that I that I didn't mind so much. Like we had discussions about like, what would the dormer extension be cladded

in or things like,

that. But I didn't have strong feelings or like, what

were the windows? You know? I actually ended up getting some of my own windows, But um,

And then everything else that I knew was either an estimate that I wanted go find

myself, I

just did that. So, yeah, uh, my tiles, my flooring, my sanitary wear.

and then I just. You know, did on your advice actually for some of the bigger stuff, got

like three estimates the average those, I did the highest and lowest

of those and then put that into my

things so I was able to track it myself.

So.

Yeah, I, I [00:14:00] didn't, 'cause I trusted the contractor and 'cause he had a really, really good, you know, bill of

quantities, um,

yeah. Sent out anyway, so I didn't feel like I needed it. But that's not to say

I wouldn't in another, another renovation. 

Kate: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one. So we, we did it quite differently

think in our two renovations. The first time we did have, um,

a Qs do our full detailed bill of quantities

Like you said, I think it was,

I remember like 40, 50 pages or something. It was huge. Like, it was a huge document where If you don't know what a bill of quantities is, we go through in a bit

Of detail in the earlier

um, episodes, but generally it's just a list of everything you

need to complete the build.

And usually there's rates per square meter or

whatever, or length or whatever it is in that

as well, so you kind of start to price

and

multiply out. And what a QS will kind of do is I suppose, detail that

to as much. Detail as possible, And the more detail there, the closer you will

be finishing on budget or on target.

And managing that process

throughout the renovation. If you're like Jenny and [00:15:00] your super organized and love Excel, maybe you can deal with, you know, the initial contractors bill of

quantities if they provide you with one. But in my experience, we went to Tender, we got. And I've seen other

people's tender

as well. We got the

full bill of quantities filled in by builders

And fully specked.

You know, like they filled in all the Excel doc where they said, this

is my rate for

this, this is my

rate for this. And then some builders came back with literally like four line

items of prices. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Kate: So like my watch out would

be those ones. With the four line items, you're much more liable to get.

Fluctuations in over the build and maybe not finish, um, on target or on budget.

but those ones that have

shorter line items will either drastically underestimate. So you will come in over budget or their price might be way higher. 'cause

they've built in such buffers, they know

they'll be safe.

You know, so sometimes in the tender process when

you get two different builders the price quite differently, that

way you'll get such a wide range of costs and [00:16:00] prices back. Um, so like

in my experience, just going through that with the

QS the first

time taught me a lot. 

Jen: You learn 

so much.

Don't 

Kate: you 

learn 

so much.

Yeah. 

Jen: to go through

Kate: Yeah. to go through 

that

And you? were lucky or you were. You were

fortunate that like your 

builder, 

your contractor gave You that

field 

Jen: and was patient at me when I was like what's this, what's this mean? And I was asking such basic questions for somebody who works in that field, do you know? But he was really patient

he was like, that's what that means, that this means, that's why it cost that.

That's why. That's you can strip that out,

you know?

Kate: Yeah. But I would be very reluctant to just go and 

plow 

on with a builder that has very

loose pricing

To to you and you don't understand the process 

Like 

Jen: my builder 

was down 

to the detail. He had the

alarm priced into it, which wouldn't, you know, that's not part yeah, yeah, Like, that's an afterthought. Like so,

you know, and I 

I literally mean like the actual alarm and the service

you'd pay for it. It is super detailed

and I think that is, I love that.

I, I would look for that again, sure.

Kate: Yeah. but I would

say like 

if you've [00:17:00] no level of detail in A BOQ and you've no experience in

doing

this before.

I'd be pushing to at least

an initial costings done with the Qs.

Yeah. And then maybe you might be able to manage and take over it then. And what will usually happen is your will come in evaluations monthly or

whatever, um, however frequently you say throughout your, your build.

But, uh, I

think, yeah, If if, you don't know what's happening, definitely get bit more of an idea

through using the Qs at least upfront. And then maybe you might tail off and manage it from

yourself later. Yeah, yeah. Um, who else? An Designer. 

Jen: designer.

I, I'm gonna give a massive shout out. I

really.

think it is worth getting a good interior designer to

a renovation.

I think it saves you, like, first of all, they are worth, they earn their

money back, I think almost, not more than any other profession that we spoke about here, but they really tend, tend to earn their money back, um,

because they are traveling to trade shows. they have,

They have, um. they have, [00:18:00] access to wholesalers that you just don't, that just aren't on the open market, that don't have, retail, you know, even a website or front end or anything like that.

They have, uh, discounts, uh, organized with, you know, lots and lots

of different suppliers.

So typically

My, in my

experience, what

you'll

spend in an interior designer, you'll say back, and that's not even touching on their skillset and what They can do to bring your vision to life, to, you know, find the right, Um. materials for your home be able to layer in

texture, the

light, to create the mood the atmosphere that you're looking

for, to create like the flow and

the use of that you're looking for

Yeah, I'm definitely an advocate for, for,

working with interior designer. Yeah, if you can, I definitely agree though,

'cause you get asked so many times like, how, how, how do I find one who's a one? And it's so hard to tell. like obviously look through their portfolio and

ask what they like that. Yeah, it really

is.

Yeah.

Kate: someone wants to

style boards, mood boards, fabrics, paint, [00:19:00] swatches, and then some will help you with that sourcing.

I think, I think,

sometimes really good interior designers and good architects there can be quite a bit overlap. So some architects love to manage

That whole process through and like spec kitchen and your light fittings like, 'cause that's their aesthetic and they want their project to be showcased in the best Possible light by the at the end. But like then a good interior designer will do quite a bit of that as well. So if you're not

working with an architect or you're not doing that major renovation, an interior architect

or an interior designer might give you

the lighting plans you need or the general kind of mechanical layouts for

Some bathrooms fittings. Fixtures and

like you said, you could spend weeks trawling the internet and going shop to shop to find stuff that they will find for you in literally minutes. like, for the most part, someone can show me a screenshot of a life and I'll have seen somewhere and I'll show it you. 

Yeah, 

Jen: yeah. They'll 

Kate: be like, oh yeah, I know where, I know where you get that, and I know where 

you'll get it. Cheapest too.

You know, they're just doing it [00:20:00] day in, day out, and if you're

and what finishes you

want and stuff like that, I think they're absolutely worth the money. Um, 

Jen: and keeping the bigger picture in mind as well. I think like when you're, most people, some people are out there super skilled and they're well able to put something together and that's absolutely fine, but There's a lot of people who, they know what they want,

but, and they might be

able to kind of

get to a certain point

piecemeal, but.

a

Proper professional will be able keep the entire house in mind and just know what works really well

together.

And I think that, yeah. Piece of kind of team and everything. 

Yeah. And that's actually

really valuable And it's something that can be overlooked,

I think, you're

going

through it yourself. The other thing I think is, is good to think about you're looking for somebody is, um.

Are you like, if you want to be hands off.

And you can, and you don't really know what you want, but you, you know, you have a general idea, but you kind

of, you know, you're happy for somebody else to take over. I think you need to look for

an interior designer that has a very.

Strong

and kind

consistent aesthetic that you really like, and then I think you

can trust them to deliver on that. So [00:21:00] you'll get

something like, that. I think probably most listeners this podcast are more interested in doing something themselves or taking more on themselves and have a strong idea of

they want themselves. and so what I think is good then is looking for a designer that. Has brought

lots of different visions life in quite a you know, in different ways. And to me, that really says that they're well able

to interpret their client's vision. They're able to bring somebody else's ho

home to life in, in a beautiful

way. Um, but that

really, you know, marries the, the client's vision. and, and,

gets you

what

you want as opposed to bringing their own

vision to life.

I 

think that can be really, really important. 

Kate: Yeah, for sure. Um, I.

also 

think interior designers, there's kind of two, 

I think, levels types of interior designers that people are looking for.

Some people, like you said, kind of just want

a steer aesthetically. Mm-hmm. And it might be just like a little room glow up or whatever. And those things take interior designers quite a short amount of time to together

style

boards and whatever. But then when you're

getting [00:22:00] to that deep level of renovation and retrofit and stuff

we're talking about, That's when interior designers start to kind

of, you know, earn their keep

and technical kind of drawings and layouts

And um, liaising with the builder contractor and making sure all the and

all that, like you said earlier. Fit And are in the right places. Yeah. and you haven't ordered the wrong amount of tiles

and the tile. Tile thicknesses are gonna meet the wood floor finishes and not gonna be a step somewhere or

stuff like that. So like that's where it starts to get a bit more technical.

So I think just know there's kind of two tiers in pricing when it comes to interior designers from that point of view as well.

And once you start getting

into that

technical side of

interior design and the layouts and drawings and the CAD drawings and all that, that's when they a project manager as well. Yeah, I 

Jen: have to say, like aside from sourcing, I think those CAD

drawings are

The most useful thing throughout a renovation because like if you're brilliant at at visualizing things, then maybe

you don't need them so much. But even if you are like just being able to play around

virtually

with what [00:23:00] layouts might work with,

furniture might work, where with How much space you'll have left over, if you go with that couch, what dining layout should look like, or you know. How many shells did put in here?

where would those lights work best? Like being able to play around with lots of

different options virtually is invaluable. Because by the time you get do it, then know, you know you've got the right choice. not making

any mistakes. Yeah. 

Kate: And I think something as well that I think a lot of people are 

afraid

to 

tell interior designer. 'cause interior designers

will typically ask you to start, your

budget for doing this? And people go, well,

if I tell them my budget now

they're just gonna buy a load of expensive

stuff. And like, no, they'll work to a budget.

So not telling them any budget, you'll just get a design that's not tailored

to Yeah. You know? So like, be as upfront as you

can. You know, and everyone's terrified because

we see Derma Bannon

on

room improve. Go. What's your budget? 200 K. Well, this is gonna cost 250 K.

I know that,

We but 

Jen: you want to know that

upfront. You don't want to

not know that and then end up 

Kate: Yes. interior 

designers need to know band. Like they [00:24:00] need to

know roughly where they're working 

within and they can 

usually 

work to win within most bands.

obviously some interior designs are gonna be very

elite and very kind of high end or whatever finishes, But like if you give them a band, they'll

work to that band. Just give them an idea of like, are we talking 40 degrees a square meter for wood floors? Are we

200 square meter? 'cause you can get something along that

whole spectrum That will almost, you know, suffice for all people,

but like you need

to be kind of. you need to have a frank

enough discussion, think, to get the best output.

Yeah. 

I think 

Jen: and then I think it's really worth, like whoever

you're going to if, if it's your architect, if it's your.

um. Interior designer, anyone else? And we'll get

contractors as well in a few minutes, like have that

conversation upfront, like be really clear about what services offer. 'cause sometimes isn't immediately obvious when you go and,

you know, when

work with, are you you're trying to find like who's the right person to work with, So just be like, have that list

questions, like what level of service do you provide? Is it a full end-to-end? Is there an option

to extend to full end to end? If I'm getting

[00:25:00] overwhelmed, like you step back in and, you know, do the pricing.

and like.

You know, are they sourcing? Are they finding materials for you?

Are they putting

together shopping lists for you? Are they handing over a mood board?

Uh, and you're, you know, you go and find all the stuff yourself. Um, are they down on site?

Just

talking with the suppliers, the trades people

to make sure that the finish is as

speced?

Um, like, it's, are the

questions you

need to ask, like, know yourself, what level

of of you want yourself, and then ask those questions when you're, when you're looking for, 

uh, professionals to work with.

Kate: Yeah. Um, and then you have your contractor you met Yeah. Contractors. So like that's what I 

wanna talk about here

because we have a main

contractor this time 'cause it's a major renovation. honestly if I went direct

with trades, even if I had

access to a few

that tradesmen that I would like, I just don't think.

Yeah, unless you're a design professional working in this all the time,

You

could really manage that

relationship. Like you just,

there's too many intersections, there's too many [00:26:00] junctures, when you have too many junctures and not a main contractor,

it's a bit of a gray area. Who manage

those junctures, you

know, like.

like I said, there are tiles meeting

floor If you don't have a main contractor, the wood floor will guy Say the tile guy is wrong and the tile guy will say the wood floor guy is wrong, and if your bathroom toilet doesn't fit, the bathroom

place will be like, well, if you wanna return it now there's like 25% restocking fee. And the plumber will say, well, I'm just plumb it the way it was. So

like there's very little ownership

when you're going direct to Mm-hmm. and it's a, there's a lot of gray areas, so you need to, you need to have.

I suppose strong agreements and written agreements into who owns what.

Mm-hmm.

But um, just as a, a little example, I suppose in our last place, and

was just a few little finishes, I elected some

suppliers, right?

And this is just a little bit of a,

a warning

if you want to elect

your own

suppliers and like there's some, you just will want to, because the contractor might have the contacts in specific things that you wanna for the house. and that's understandable, I sourced [00:27:00] the wood floor because I really wanted a specific of wood floor, and I sourced the tiles, and then the juncture between those. Was not managed correctly. 'cause I bought, you know, a brass dripping that I thought you'd just put it down. And the wood floor guy was

like, I can't put down with the wood floor 'cause you need expansion gaps. The Tyler was like, if I stick that down, your floor's gonna buckle on the other side. So it was like no one owned it.

Right. So then I had this gap in my floor and it was just never really finished. That's just one Right. But like, that is such like, 

Jen: is 

that not the, it's like the perfect example 

for,

um, like communication and, ownership just brought to life in like 

wood and tiles. Like it's the perfect visualization. Nobody manages the tiny little

strip in

Kate: exactly. And, and, and that was something that I elected on this, I'm not even gonna go into Mastermind, but on this renovation we used

a supplier that I elected, that I used before, and I had a good

experience with. He's obviously expanded

his business and

expanded

his people that under him. I [00:28:00] elected the supplier, not my builder, and he absolutely me down.

Like as in the, the quality 

of 

Jen: you down? he let 

our, another friend of ours down. 

Yeah. 

Kate: it was, the quality of 

work was horrendous. Like I can't even explain how bad it was. And I was obviously 

really upset

and 

stressed about it

and trying to

kind of problem solve and firefight,

but I elected that.

So

I can't even push back on my

and say, I need to get this fixed. And he's Like well,

you picked

this Like, I could have given you one of my guys. but.

That's

the kind of risks I suppose you take on

in electing your own and your own trades within an overall main

contract. So it's a watch out. Like, I'm not saying you

can't elect, but be sure of who you're electing or what supplier you're

electing, and agree those junctures

and make sure that's clear.

I think

that's just a big one for me in both of mine.

Jen: the the benefits

of a formed team Coming to do a job are massive because they know how to communicate.

They're

used to working each other. [00:29:00] They know where the handoff are they know what the working style is like It's

like we, we said this back in, I think back in episode.

Five or one of the earlier

episodes that you need to approach. If you are, whatever

involvement you have in,

your renovation, be it, you know,

off or fully involved in managing it end to end, you have to approach it. It is a job. It's a working job.

It's a, it's the same as you would do as a when you go into to work every day. Like this is a professional engagement and you need to treat it as such and you need to be. that the team that's working on it are formed and that they're

performing Just use like, or for

language, like you need

be sure that

communication is good. You need to have a cadence communication set out.

Like, are

you, you know,

is this, are you doing over email? Are you doing everything over phone? it's done

over phone, are you writing something down? Are you keeping track? Who's keeping

of what needs to be done?

Like, are you expecting someone to come back and say,

this box has been tipped? Like, the way I managed it was every, every single Friday afternoon I would [00:30:00] meet

my contractor. I would have a list of stuff that I wanted to go through. He would have a list of

stuff that he wanted go through. We would go through those lists together.

The rest of Friday we would spend like, you know, ironing out those

or whatever. If I needed to make more that would be done over the weekend, and then like off he went again on Monday. Like that. We got so into the rhythm of that. It was just every Friday the meeting was so fast and so efficient.

and like that might be something different for someone else, but like what is your key?

What is your meeting cadence? Who's taking minutes of the meeting? Who's taking actions? What's communication like? What are the agreements there? Like That doesn't make everything happen so much faster. And so then.

That comes back to, again when you're, when you are choosing tradespeople, if they are already

used to working with other, then they'll have that kind 

of language or relationship or working like professional relationship down

and everything will just happen so much faster.

Kate: Yeah, I mean obviously look, there's gonna be overheads and there's gonna be like a bit of an uplifting cost here in having your main contractor because they have to make money too as a main contractor. And they are essentially a project [00:31:00] manager Manager as well. Some builders

may just be a main contractor and not

actually

work in the building side of it too much anymore.

They might be managing

multiple sites and so then they kind of drop in and

like have your meetings, like you say. and then some builders are still

the trade they started out as So they may mm-hmm. They might be the main contractor, but they may also be the carpenter

the site 'cause

that's what they started out as. or electrician or whatever it is.

So like

it depends on The type

of contractor. Would I go without a main contractor?

Again, depends on the project. You really wanna know what you're doing. The Smaller projects, you probably could. Uh, but if you are planning

to go direct trades, just have

some Written agreements as to who

manages those intersections the trades and between the finishes and who owns, you know,

the potential things that can go wrong.

Yeah. 'cause there's a chance for someone to hand it off and there's no main contractor.

the chances are they will. 

Jen: my rule of thumb would be, 

first of all, I would get, I would, I

would have a main I I

just think it's worth it. Sweet and gold. [00:32:00] Well, mine

was because he was so.

good, but the Probably the rule at home is if you're working to a timeline and something

has be done by a certain

time, like if you're outta the house and you're renting or whatever and what, for whatever reason, there's there's a deadline, then I would absolutely get a contractor

because

they have responsibility all the things that you were just talking about, and

you want that.

You want that to be on them. You know? They'll then make sure that

things do happen to that and that they do happen within that budget or whatever. If you don't, you're maybe just doing an upper room or you're, it's a small extension or

something

and still living in the house and there isn't a huge issue, if something gets delayed by a week or two weeks or even a month, you know,

some, in some cases, um, then maybe you don't need it. Maybe it's not so necessary to somebody overseeing that

because if things slip, it's not a huge deal. 

Kate: Yeah. And if you are not, so say, say you do wanna go down the route of

no 

main you better school yourself fairly fast on the

order of events. And like you mentioned at the start, Jen,

like The the lead for main things. So you need to know, like you know, the the [00:33:00] demolition work will happen, the major construction, then the m and e, the mechanical electrical, and we go through that.

and a go bit of detail in one of the earlier episodes as well.

So mechanical electrical plans.

anyone who's listening, and then the mechanical and electrical

plans. It's almost been a kind of the kickoff for ordering some of the longer 

lead time stuff.

'cause know, you're kind of in it then, you know, when you're, you're kind of on the countdown to some of the finishes being needed.

Yeah. So your mechanical electrical plan, your, your,

your, um, finishes then and your kitchen and your flooring and all that. They'll all have associated lead time. So you need to have a good idea of when they need to be on

site and who needs to be on site first, and you need to.

Uh, managing that is no mean feat on your own. So you need to be a very organized person. You have all

those dates, times, order

of events in hand ready to go. Yeah. so you're not the cause of the

delay. because you think like 

Jen: you're doing a renovation, like everyone's gonna come and do their job.

but these are people who are doing Multiple jobs like that that week, and they're all trying to juggle their own timelines and everything. So if [00:34:00] something in your

end gets pushed out a week or two, that throws out their whole schedule. so 

there's, it's a constant, like, it's like a game of Tetris trying to get

everybody lined up

do the right thing at the right time.

Yeah. 

Kate: Um, And

one other thing about, um,

contractors as well is. So obviously there's, you know, your contract pricing and everything, you might elect suppliers. Then, like we mentioned, if you elect suppliers, some builders will charge you what called, like attendances. So the charges to kind of install the stuff that you, uh, you

purchased yourself Or you sourced or

whatever. Or

Even if there's, like, say a kitchen supplier come in, but you've elected that kitchen and they still have to deal with the kitchen supplier, whether it's the electrical layouts, mechanical layouts, for kitchen install, they'll still charge

you

a couple of a percent of attendances that. So just, just to watch out, um, to know that, that you can't just elect all these suppliers and that's drop dead cost.

If the builder has to deal with it, and interact with it, they'll probably charge an attendance on it. Yeah. Um, and then another thing for a contract that gives you a little bit of [00:35:00] a.

I suppose a comfort or a buffer is your retention. So a retention is

kind of a small portion of the contract cost held back for an agreed amount of time, six months, 12 months. And it's really just as a guarantee for you

that if goes wrong, you still own a

little bit of that contract. It's usually, I dunno, in or around the

5%, you

know, it can be down as low as two or and it could be up as higher as 7% or whatever. So like. Agreeing that, um, retention and the time for that might give you a little bit of

comfort if you're nervous about things going wrong at

the end.

Yeah, so then I suppose budgeting as 

Jen: Yeah, that's what I was gonna 

say.

Kate: We spoke about qss. So qss will obviously

help you keep to within your budget as close 

as you 

can. 

I mean, I would always

include a contingency some extent. The older the house, the more complica complicated.

How the renovation. do 

Jen: you typically 

put in? 

Kate: I mean between 10 and 20%. But I think if you're doing an old period

property, you'd want to [00:36:00] be up closer to the Yeah. 'cause you will have unforeseens, like you just will, like

you, 

you'll pull off paneling on an old wall and God knows what you could find

in there. You know, it's just, we had back boilers in boats, our chimneys that

were in the seventies. So when you pull out a back boiler, it's not just the opening of the fire anymore,

it's now this size, and now the fire needs to be built back up. If you wanna a. fireplace or you wanna do a a. A Stove or whatever.

So these are all at Ladon. Like our Orial bay window was

completely rotten. When we

went replace the rotten front paneling,

like the internal

structure was rotten and that was like 10 grand, of repair. we were not expecting,

like, yeah, and I think we knew there was some level of rot, but 10 grand. We were

like shit, you,

know, so like

you, you just have to build in some of these unforeseen, so I would say 

15

20%

for a really old house.

Jen: I wouldn't go lower than 15. And I think

people, um, might might think they can go lower

than 15 because they've gotten a survey

done, but.

but

The survey can't, like, they're [00:37:00] not chipping away at that orle window and seeing that it's rotten. They can only

what they can see

And

that's not to say it doesn't work in

the survey done. It absolutely

is, but it doesn't show

up absolutely everything. I always tell this story, my contractor,

um, got a little bit held up on the house he was finishing before mine because they were doing, uh, work down, like they were digging down a a little bit and

they were doing, work and, and

there's like, you know, a lower, it's like two story over one kind of

thing.

And, uh. as they were

digging up the they found a well, which they did not know was there. There's no way they could have known it was there. The house is like, you know, like a semidetached house. I didn't think there was gonna be a well under the Yeah.

Um, and you can't, you

know, a survey isn't gonna show That up

because the floor is covering

So don't fall into the trap thinking that because you've got your

engineers report to your survey

and

everything

fine. it is a hundred percent fine. That only shows up like what you can see. And then their

best

guess at, you know, whether the electrics

whatever might need to be

redone. Um, yeah. You still, like, I wouldn't, I just wouldn't go less than 15%

on, on [00:38:00] contingency. 

Kate: And like we said in all of our episodes with your budget tracker, like the more you can track that budget and to the, like

the finest level of detail possible, even in finishes and

stuff like that,

the closer you're gonna kind of keep to that budget.

So I think, you know, if you wanna manage this process yourself, the more detail and the more organized you can be,

the better. 

Jen: Yeah, Um, go onto my Instagram or my website at Workers cottage or identity.com my budget. Track it there. You can download for free. Um, you can have it, you can buy me a coffee if you love it. Um, but like down to the

detail. and that's like, that's another

thing keep on top of. So we're talking about like weekly

meetings your contractor or your, whoever else you're working with to manage it. But part of that needs to be like, where are we at spend wise? Have we gone over on anything? Have we saved on a couple of things? My contractor saved on a couple of

things, uh, because he is, uh,

unreal GMI construction for anyone, JEMI,

uh, for anyone who's who's curious, I'd recommend him to anyone. But, um,

like where, like where are you? What, what's been spent? What's priced in? Has anything come up that was unexpected?

Has [00:39:00] anything been more expensive and you like track that and keep on top of that? I would say we

tweak.

Kate: Yeah. And then before you close out a 

contract, I guess, or toward the end of your your build, you're go through your snags. Mm-hmm. Or the

ping that need to be kind of, you know, tidied up

and

finished.

So like doing a walkthrough and seeing

damage to walls, or do decorators need to in and do some, you know, potential add-ons or maybe there's tiling that wasn't finished properly

or gRED properly. You know, so you'll kind of do, I suppose, a walk of.

The whole

house sure everything's mm-hmm. And Make sure

if you put in a new boiler heat bump or whatever,

that everything seems to be working, the

heating seems to be working and like have your full detailed snags that you're gonna go walk through with your contractor or

your direct trade. you know, like if you're doing it that way yourself. So

that's snag list is really important and important to get down in writing and before you pay final parts of people's

payments.

make sure they've covered their snags.

'cause one thing is for sure, once they're fully paid, the majority of them ain't coming back.

I mean, I mean, and [00:40:00] I then but

Jen: think that's another benefit of having a good contractor is that they're responsible for the whole project end to

end.

So generally they'll

want a really high

standard

finish because that's their work. That's what they're putting their stamp on. And if they're, you

know, if they're good at their job, they'll want that to look

good. But all you have to do then is go

give them that SAG list and then they're responsible for getting the right people back in to that job. Whereas you could be

out there contacting like five, seven

people trying to get them back in to get that done. And if any of that depends 

on somebody else doing their 

job, then you're back into whole fray again.

Nightmare.

Kate: Yeah. So I suppose that's. Pretty much everything about contracts, contractors dealing trades and project managing it yourself. Um.

But I suppose

in

summary,

hire some level of professional, but decide based on your specific project and your level of organization and skills in this area, what that expert might be.

I. Would I go [00:41:00] end to end on a full

renovation with zero input from experts and just go direct 

Jen: Maybe you're next one 

Kate: path.

No, I

Jen: could, but would you, is the 

Kate: no, I don't think I, I think

I'd 

implode,

I just, you have 

to hand off some 

stuff. There's just so much, um,

so many decisions to make and There's just so many intersections Of of things

that can be missed or go wrong or whatever

that I think you have to have some level of professional help.

Otherwise, you'll be looking for professional help in the form of a psychiatrist

afterwards.

Jen: it's true. 

Yeah, 

Kate: That's my 2 

Jen: I I think. Like if you are, if you are obsessively organized, way more

organized than me even, and if you are willing to make this a full-time job and still need professional psychiatric help the end of it, then go for But otherwise, at the bare minimum, get an

excellent contractor.

And I would still say work with an

interior designer if possible. [00:42:00] And

again, depending on what you

need, an architect

potentially. 

Kate: Even if it's few drop in sessions with designers or consultants or whatever, or interior architects,

like you mentioned earlier, some of those do amazing drop-in one hour

sessions two hour

sessions and stuff like that and just steer you enough or maybe give you just enough guidance to send you on your happy way.

And just some people use it, as like some of the sessions that I've done, one-to-ones

people

have said, this is kind of like renovation therapy. Yeah. kind of like the way people mentioned it about our

podcast. Start there. Like they just want a soundboard. They wanna just tell you like a few of the things they picked.

Does this make

sense? Does make sense? Does this make sense? 'cause they hadn't done it

before. And sometimes that little steer can give you the confidence you need to progress, know?

Absolutely. Um, but yeah, if I'm here next time, I've

survived. So wish me luck for the next two months.

Jen: We'll 

Kate: you in two weeks. Stay 

Jen: tuned. Listeners. Will she 

Kate: Bye. guys. See you then.

Outro

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