#57 - Layout, Planting & Outdoor Rooms - Garden Design Explained

Gardens are often treated as the final step in a renovation - but they can completely transform how you live, entertain and use your home. In this episode, we break down the big landscaping decisions, from layout and materials to planting, pergolas and outdoor rooms.

What we cover

•  How much to budget for landscaping and where the money really goes 
•  Designing your garden in zones: dining, relaxing, planting, storage and outdoor kitchens 
• Optimise for light - don't just plonk your patio outside your back door
•  Choosing paving materials: porcelain, natural stone and gravel 
•  Timber vs composite decking and long-term maintenance 
•  Planting strategies that create year-round structure without overwhelm 
•  Common planting mistakes and how to avoid a messy, high-maintenance garden 
•  Awnings, pergolas and shade options for the Irish climate 
•  Garden rooms, offices and adding usable outdoor square footage 
•  Furniture sizing, durable materials and weather-proof storage 

Projects & items mentioned

•  Jenny’s living wall by Gannon & Associates Landscape Architecture
•  Kate’s garden design by Louise Checa Landscape Architecture
• Amelanchier lamarckii as a favourite tree for seasonal structure and softness 

The big takeaway: spend on structure, groundwork and layout first - planting and styling come afterwards.

Follow the podcast on Instagram @ripitup_podcast_official, or follow us - Jenny is @workerscottage and Kate is @victorianrathmines

Transcript

# Gardens WWWWKT


## Intro

**Intro:** [00:00:00] Welcome back to a brand new season of Rip It Up. Every renovation teaches you something, but it's only after you've lived through the dust, the delays, and the decisions, and then done it again like me, that the real lessons appear. This season, we're revisiting our biggest renovation topics, not with theory, not with optimism, but with hindsight.

Process planning, lighting, kitchens, bathroom windows, what worked, what didn't, and what we'd never do the same way again. This is what we wish we knew then. 

**Jen:** Welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Kate.

**Kate:** Hi Jen.

**Jen:** What's the crack?

**Kate:** Back to the rain. Not great for

**Jen:** No. Why, why?

**Kate:** Every time the weather gets good, I'm like, this is it guys. It's the turning point. We're getting into spring, summer, crack out the summer close and put away the jackets. No, and then it starts raining again, and then it'll be hailstones by two o'clock, and then it might be 14 degrees again by three o'clock.

Like it's, yeah.

**Jen:** It is like I'm devastated weekly, if not daily, that I don't live in a sunny climate,

**Kate:** I know, I know. It makes you wanna constantly book holidays.[00:01:00] 

**Jen:** yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, alright, we're talking about, uh, gardens. Speaking of outdoors, we're talking about gardens, we're talking about garden planning. Um, we have very different gardens and you've obviously been through.

You're a new one, uh, which is looking unbelievable right now. Um.

**Kate:** Oh, I love a garden now, I must say, and like I'm an okay gardener, but Cian's pretty obsessed. So like, do you know between us, I think we put a lot into gardens, but I think we spend a lot of time out there. As soon as the weather gets good, if it. Fucking does this here. Uh, we're like straight out there.

We'll eat out there. We'll have our breakfast out there at the weekends. Like, we'll always, we'll spend the whole day in the garden. It's nice.

**Jen:** I think it's almost worth saying at the outset that like you moved house and renovated your third house recently, and I would you fair to say that one of the main drivers for you moving was to have a new big south facing garden that you

**Kate:** What? Not even big. I

**Jen:** do use it like,

**Kate:** Really do. And like our garden isn't huge where we are. It's not deep, but it's wide. 'cause our site is kind of [00:02:00] a weird tapered site, but our old garden was east facing and like, I'm not massively bothered by the size of the garden, but the east a easterly aspect, we lost it very quickly in the city because there's high Victorian buildings around you.

So as soon as that sun moved around, it was gone. So it was kind of good up to

**Jen:** of it in the morning, which is not that usable really, unless you're up early in in summertime.

**Kate:** you know, peak summertime when like the sun is a bit higher and you might have it for an hour or two later when the sun is out and you have that peak sun. You're in a hot box of concrete in the city and it's actually not nice to sit out in peak time.

Sometimes I think when you're surrounded by high stone walls and big red brick buildings, so like, I dunno, just the width, even though garden isn't that deep this time, it's so nice just to be able to go out any time of the day and get the sun in south facing, it's, it's worth a lot. Yeah.

**Jen:** And it is worth a lot, like financially, it's worth a lot. Like, 'cause you always see that in, in descriptions. Um, and if you spend money on it at the outset, you will get that money back if you're, if you're ever selling that house again. [00:03:00] It is a, it's a perennial benefit in a house is to have a south facing garden in Ireland.

**Kate:** yeah, it is, and like I think light in general in any renovation is, is really important. Being able to take advantage of it in your garden is, is really, is really key. I think it's an extra room if you do it right.

**Jen:** Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so we're gonna go through kind of roughly what people spend on gardens, different materials, things to think about when you're planting all the different uses that you can have in your garden, garden rooms, pergolas, awnings, all that kind of stuff. Um, we'll bit through it.

**Kate:** Yeah.

**Jen:** So

**Kate:** How much do you spend on your garden? This is like a, this is a bit of contentious one now, because some people wanna spend way more, but like the guide is five to 10% of your property value. Or you're like, yeah, but like I know PRS are getting so expensive. People are like, what? I'm not spending 50 grand on my garden or whatever, but like.

That's theoretically what you should be kind of thinking about spending, and that should include everything. Your [00:04:00] landscaping, your stone, if you're doing stone, your planting, awnings, if you're putting in awnings, potentially garden furniture, stuff like that. But like there's ways and means around that. If you don't have that left in the budget, which a lot of people don't at the end of our

**Jen:** have to do it immediately. Right. It's not something, it's a, it's a completely different team to the one that's gonna be coming in and doing your house. Unless you do need to have like drainage and groundworks in place that you know your contractor can do that while you're doing your renovation.

**Kate:** Yeah, like, like we say about all renovation stuff, get the structure in there. Like for us, we didn't plant our house. Our garden straight away. But we did get the levels right. We knew we wanted another level. We knew we wanted a retrain retaining wall that was gonna act as a bench. So like those structural things are good to get done during the renovation, and maybe you won't do the stone pavers or your outdoor kitchen or buy the furniture straight away, but at least the structures there, you know.

**Jen:** So structure and potentially connection points. So

**Jennifer:** structure, like

**Jen:** structure, like it's, I am solely with you. If you're at the end of your budget and you're like, I'm not spending it now, but you could end up spending. Potentially a grande or two now to save yourself like seven or eight grand down [00:05:00] the line to get somebody back in to get the trucks back in, to get the construction back in, to have people traipsing through your house.

Potentially the skip the whole thing. I just get it done. Now if you can, um, and potentially connection points. So. There's a couple of things even in my tiny garden that are absolutely worth it. One is an outdoor plug, um, for, I put my Christmas tree out there this year for fairy lights. You just never know what you're gonna need to plug in outside, like a power wash or anything.

You just, you know, it's just get an out, an out, an outdoor plug. They're especially designed for outdoor. They're sealed, so it's all safe. Um,

**Kate:** Or if you had a ninja slushy machine for margaritas in the summer,

**Jen:** All

**Kate:** you could plug that out there.

**Jen:** Ninja slushy

**Kate:** Well, I didn't get one. No, no, ninja. Come on, send me one.

**Jen:** That's all I want.

**Kate:** I need to get my garden ready for summer. Forget about the furniture. I just need a slushy machine. Yeah. But a plug is always a, a plug is totally worth it.

Like a plug and a tap.

**Jen:** And a tap, it's always worth having an outdoor tap. Even if you think you're never gonna hose anything, just.

**Jennifer:** just

**Jen:** You're gonna, [00:06:00] it's, it's get, just get it done. So they're the things that are worth doing, like renovation stage of your house, and then the rest. Don't worry about that Later, you can get somebody else in, you know, it's a different team. You don't necessarily need to worry about it now.

**Kate:** Yeah, but having that structure or the general layouts is, is important. And talking about kind of layouts, I suppose. Thinking about how you're gonna use the space and if you're not, maybe a soly aspect or a very sunny aspect. Where are you getting the sun or what times a day and what do you wanna use it for?

Like we were kind of purposeful in ours that like our. Morning patio is directly outside our doors. 'cause I don't think you go very far into your garden in the morning time, but you might step outside in your dressing gown and have your coffee and just if it's sunny, just catch that little bit of morning sun.

And then our kind of outdoor kitchen space is toward the back 'cause we've kind of got like two ovens slash grills. So like there'll be a lot of smoke if it was very close to the house. So we put our outdoor kitchen kind of raised over there to get that last bit of the evening sun as it goes

**Jen:** Mm.

**Kate:** Um, but like, just think about like where the light moves around your garden and plan your patios [00:07:00] accordingly.

Don't put like a kid's Wendy house in the perfect sunny spot in your garden, you know, wasting it. So like, just think about where stuff goes and then where you've shady spots. You know, think about what plants you might put in those shady spots to fill it in.

fill it in. There's websites where you can kind of map the sun and you can kind of estimate the height of buildings and stuff around. I can't remember some of the names of them now, but if you, if you search it, you'll find it online. And

**Jen:** is 'cause someone just built one, didn't they? For Dublin pubs. It was in the Irish time. Some clever, someone clever mapped what? What? Like outdoor beer garden areas

**Kate:** I'll tell you what's a great one is the tap house in like it gets the sun to the very end of that whole patio

**Jen:** can get a seat up there.

**Speaker 2:** We asked Johnny Gannon from Gannon and Associates, one of the best landscape architecture firms in Dublin. What was his top tip? And this was it.

**Speaker 3:** a top garden design tip to always consider the orientation of the sun when laying out your garden. So this might mean your outdoor, evening patio area might be down the back of the garden to get the most sun and not just outside [00:08:00] your back door. 

**Kate:** But that's the thing, right? Light in Ireland, when you get it like that, people like are gravitating toward it. They wanna sit in the sun, they wanna like recharge in the sun.

So like don't underestimate the importance of that. I guess when you're planting your garden and planting your planting don't have a lovely sunny spot and you stick a massive tree there so you can't even sit there or put furniture there or whatever. So like yeah, definitely about that out. Even in our last.

Not sunny east facing garden. We put a little overhang in our extension and it meant like almost any morning, like winter or summer, we used to open the bi folding doors and still get the sun in there and you'd be kind of sitting in the sun inside, outside. And I think that's, that's worth a lot.

**Jen:** It's so nice. I something I'm thinking about in my garden. So my garden, for anyone who hasn't seen. My house, it's about 2.5 by 2.5 if even, 

um, it's a little courtyard garden. Um, if anybody is watching us on YouTube, excuse the mess of my kitchen, it's that it has two floor to ceiling sliding doors.

So it's very much a part of the kitchen live-in dining room. [00:09:00] Like if you think of it all as one square, it's very much kind of a boxed in kind of courtyard garden, kitchen, live and dining. And one thing I am missing is that overhang. I don't have it. And I think it's as simple as getting an awning 

in, right?

Because I have lighting out there. I actually have, I got a beautiful FU fireplace, which can be used outside the Bioethanol fireplace, and it gives off quite a lot of heat. So if I just had a cover out there and I have my lighting and I had the heat from that fireplace like that, and that would be amazing.

So that's

**Kate:** It's an extra room. Like

**Jen:** it's an extra room and I have a big folding dining table out there, so it's something I'm gonna need to focus on this summer is getting an A for that, for that.

**Kate:** Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

**Jen:** Okay, so that's the flow. Think what's going 

**Kate:** Yeah.

**Jen:** Layouts. The one thing I will think I will say about kitchen and dining is we're all for having it in the sunny spot, but just think about how much running back and forth to your house you're gonna have to 

do to get the ketchup and the serving tongs and stuff like that 

doesn't matter, but it's just the path.

Even the path needs to be there. Just make 

sure you're not blocking yourself in too much. Like if you are gonna use that a lot, [00:10:00] 

um, and if the back end of your garden is the right place for your dining space, then yeah.

**Kate:** Yeah. And then I guess materials is probably the next important, most important thing. Like what are you gonna build this out of? Like, are you gonna do decking, are you gonna do paving? Are you gonna do. Concrete, like, uh, you know, it depends on budget here a lot you can do porcelain. Like, it really depends.

Like I went, I went a porcelain in my last house, uh, but they were quite thick, like usually outdoor porcelains quite thick, like 20 mil, maybe 25 mil, because if there's any kind of movement outdoors, they could break if it's thinner. But we have porcelain, like porcelain is kind of like bombproof that you can hose it down, but.

It still does get dirty in Irish climates, especially if like leaves during the autumn time stick to it and stain it, and then you still have to clean it, you know? So these bright porcelain slabs are lovely, but also look

**Jen:** I always think this is such a risk in Irish Gardens 'cause we go to these garden centers and we see. [00:11:00] On Instagram or whatever, these beautiful like pale white

**Kate:** Oh yeah. Olive tree, olive trees everywhere.

**Jen:** olive 

trees and these big cushioned dining benches 

and you're lit. You're imagining yourself sitting out there a glass of rose 

or your frozen margarita, and our lives are not like that.

If you get light colored tiles, I don't care what anyone tells you, they're gonna get moldy and they're gonna get dirty and you're gonna 

have to clean them. So if you're comfortable with a power washer and the 

egg, then fine. 

**Kate:** Texture tiles in general, like I think in Ireland, like Moss just grows and like, you know, Moss and Alga and whatever, just grow in them because it's just such a damn climate. Like it's going to get dirty. Our white ones were lovely last time. People used to ask all the time, but Kean was pretty religious.

He had a special cleaner he used to spray in them and go out and power hose them and brush it on whatever. So they're not without maintenance, they always come back. Okay. 'cause they're porcelain, but they're not without maintenance. So like, think about like. We, we put in real stone. This time we put in granite because I thought it was kind of more in keeping with the house.

It was granite sills and these old [00:12:00] houses and stuff, so it kind of ties in. We did a brown granite. And like just kind of a creamier version than the silver, white granite. But like those slabs, yes, they get dirty, but they kind of look weathered and worn 'cause they're real stone. So you can kind of live with it.

Do you know, like your old sills get a bit battered and old and it just looks normal? It looks like the way they kind of almost should. And like granite's not as expensive as you think, you know, in an outdoor format. It's

**Jen:** And also pretty bombproof. You know, it'll come, it'll, if it does get a bit dirty, it cleans up so easily. Like

**Kate:** You can use anything. Yeah. I'll say this now. I'm not giving out savvy kitchens.

Don't give back to me, but one of the guys from Savvy Kitchens left lengths of my stained wood that they were assembling my

**Jen:** Oh yeah. 

**Kate:** left and they were picked up a week later and I sure I didn't go near them, but the stained from the wood stained my whole granite bench. So it has just been installed and I like it.

I was brushing it and washing, it wasn't coming off. And I was like, oh, shit. And then I was like, is it gonna come off? How am I gonna clean it? And then I thought, it's granite. I just poured a load of bleach in it and it [00:13:00] just came off because it's, it's gran, but, 

**Jen:** Go straight for the nuclear option. 

**Kate:** Like nothing else was taken up, but like it's solid stone through, like, it's not, there's no protective layer on it.

There's no glossy finish. It's a rough, just solid stone. Like nothing happened. It just came off. So like it's real stone, you know, it's been around for millions of years probably. So like it's gonna be around for millions and more. It's um, yeah, like I think it's, I think it's okay for granite and those kind of more natural stones or limestone or

**Jen:** Limestone is fab out there. Yeah. 

**Kate:** limestone's.

Lovely. We did our. Edging in limestone. So we did kind of like, uh, Egyptian limestone kind of edging bricks on our path and stuff out the front, rather than just going kind of granite all the way, just that decorative bit or the threshold as you come in the gate in the Egyptian limestone, which is lovely.

It's a little bit kind of warmer, creamier color, and then kind of gravel in bits where we needed to fill in random little bits and strips and stuff like that.

**Jen:** Yeah. And gravel like I, overall, I really like gravel as 

well, but it does move, like it [00:14:00] blows around. And we can be windy here in Ireland sometimes, 

so if you're getting all gravel, just be prepared to sweep it back up every now and then. But that's not a huge deal.

**Kate:** Yeah, and you can get these kind of stabilization or they're not called stabilization mats, but they're, they're like a honeycomb structure plastic. And you put that down and then the gravel kind of goes into, oh, that honeycomb structure, and they come in big sheets and you can snip them with the snips to the, to fit your size.

So that kind of holds it in place. And then there's another type of gravel, I can't remember the name of it now, put it in the show notes, but it's, it's quite fine. It's almost like a dust slash small bits of gravel and they kind of roll it tight and almost compact it so it looks like gravel, but cars can drive in it and stuff like that.

You'd see in a lot of like, uh, like Cotswold homes In 

**Jen:** Yeah. 

**Kate:** you know, those kind of yellowy sandstone. It looks fab, but it can be quite dusty underfoot. So that's just something to kind of consider. But gravel, I think. Yeah.

**Jen:** to keep it.

**Kate:** I think gravel you'd need. Yeah, that's true. Uh, and gravel. I think you just need to get the sizing right.

'cause a lot of people ask this, what [00:15:00] size gravel do I use? You can kind of go six to 10 mil, then there's 10 to 14 mil, and then there's 14 to 20 mil. And then like the right size gravel can look really wrong or right. I think when you're up at the 14 to 20, they're like, they're like big pebbles. Do you know?

Uh, Forgive me, but grave pebbles, like, do you know they're too big for your garden. But the smallest one, six to 10 is what we went with. This time it looks finer. It's not as, you know, knobbly obviously looking, but it is smaller, so it gets stuck in your shoes a bit more. So if you're gonna be walking, if you're gonna be walking, be careful.

'cause you could be bringing it into your house. It

**Jen:** Your kids shoes 

or your dog's paws or anything like that as well, or

**Kate:** Yeah, so like I'd always go six to 10, but it is a little bit more work, but 10 to 14 is probably the sweet spot. Slightly bigger, still looks kind of clean, but anything over 14 

**Jen:** get a mix? Could you get a mix? I suppose You probably

**Kate:** But that is, that is the mix. The range is between 10 and 14, I guess.

They kind of filter it out. Some bits will be 14, some will be 10. You could buy, you could buy two tons. You know, you could buy a ton of each and try and mix it yourself, like do. [00:16:00] Buckets of each, but they come in kind of ton bags delivered usually in those size ranges, but I'd always go six to 10 personally.

**Jen:** yeah. I have it on my upstairs, the, my little terrace. It 

just to fill in the drainage, um, to cover its sodas and pipes and it's so handy. 'cause it, it's so, it's per, it's, you know, perfect for drainage. It doesn't get moty, it doesn't get dirty 

for 

whatever reason, I guess. 'cause it maybe moves around or.

I dunno, but it's just, it's really, really handy.

**Kate:** Yeah, and I think like, look, it's a great flexible way of filling in spaces when you don't need anyone else to do the work for you. Like anyone can put down gravel, like you can just get the ton bag delivered to your footpath or whatever by aari. Put down those mats, like I said, and just fill it in.

Like it's a great place holder if you can't afford the stone slabs right

**Jen:** And it does look great. I think it looks lovely. I always like it. 

**Kate:** Yeah. It's just a little bit more, um, fussing around it for a while, you know.

**Jen:** And then I have in my tiny garden, I have fake grass, ma primarily because I don't do any gardening, so I'm not 

gonna [00:17:00] cut anything. Uh, but also, 'cause I wouldn't have any space to put a, a lawn mower anyway, even if I did want to be 

taking care of grass.

**Kate:** For that tiny fast,

**Jen:** I was torn even that time to do, not do, 

I do not,

**Kate:** so would be so funny.

**Jen:** I needed something for the dog to pee on. So that did rule out, you know. Certain, uh, certain tiles and stuff like

that. Um,

and I did want the bit of greenery. Do you know? And I do have a living wall at which Johnny uh, uh, Johnny Gannon, um, installed for me, which is Fab.

So I do get a lot of greenery there, but I wanted it green. I wanted green, even if it, I, even if it's fake, I wanted green grass. 

And mine is actually just a roll, I think, I wanna say it was like 20 euro, uh, per meter or something like that, if even, and it looks really good. And it wasn't from, I, like, I think it was from B and q.

Um.

**Kate:** got ours last time 'cause we had it in the last house. Uh, we got ours in tile merchant. I think they used to have it there. And you can see the different depths and they say not to go too deep. 'cause the extra plus your extra deep one will kind of flatten [00:18:00] over time anyway. It's kinda like carpet I suppose.

But we, I think, what was it called? Uh, there's a name on it now, but it was. 25 or 30 mil thick, I think. And it even had little brown flex, like real grass

**Jen:** like it makes a big difference. 

'cause you don't want it, like, it can't be too vivid green. It looks weird, it looks 

really fake. So a few bit of like yellow and brown 

strands through it. It looks, uh, it looks great.

**Kate:** Now your little doggy is this size. My little doggy was not so little, and I would never put it down again because it got smelly in the summertime with a big dog. No way. Just, I'm sorry. Unless you're going out hosing it immediately after your dog pees in it. If you have a big dog and a small-ish area, it's gonna smell, especially in the summertime.

So for that reason, I wouldn't put it down again because I'd probably get a big dog if I get a big dog again in the future. Um, so we have real grass, but that's a load of maintenance in itself if you want it. Nice. You know?

**Jen:** I will say my fellow doesn't pee out there that much. 

Actually, he doesn't really like it, I don't think. Um, and he's like a camel, so he just [00:19:00] kinda waits for his ies. 

But I do, I have a hose with a sprayer 

and I do spray it. cause you're right, it does like if it's raining or whatever, grant,

**Kate:** It washes away. Yeah, but the summer, I just noticed the smell and peak summertime. So it's just a watch out. If you have dogs, if you have one dog or a big dog, or two dogs and a small space, it might not be for you unless you're religious. With the maintenance

**Jen:** But it's just a bit of a spray with the hose. Do you know? It's, it's, it's not the end of the world.

**Kate:** your dog weighs about two kilos. Come back to me, the 20 come back to me. Come back to me with a 20 kilo dog and see what the smell is like then.

**Jen:** Oh,

**Kate:** Uh, like I could hose it all day and the smell wouldn't get away

**Jen:** Okay. 

**Kate:** So anyway. Look, it's just a watch out. It's a watch out,

but yeah.

**Jen:** what we had on the ground onto a deck. If you're doing a deck, patio, whatever it might be, um, you're kind of into a different suite of materials there. Obviously you 

can, you can do your, your porcelain again, and it is pretty much bombproof and it's very, very handy.

Um, but if you're doing kind of a wood decking, um, then we're back to just maintenance. It's all 

all of this really is [00:20:00] like, what is your appetite for maintenance, isn't it?

**Kate:** And especially I think real wood in Ireland, like especially in the winter months, it can get slimy and green and slippy and like it has a lot of maintenance and like, yes, you can oil it and stain it, but still again, you have the grooves and the moisture will just, you know,

**Jen:** The mosque's in there, lad, I'm telling you, even I have like, I have a full down table up against my, my back wall.

**Jennifer:** wall.

**Jen:** And 

my 

builder built it for me, and he used the leftover cedar cladding from 

my upstairs. Um, and even that, like cedar is strong and robust and a great outdoor wood, but even that gets a bit because there's, you know, it's, it's, it's horizontal, 

um, planks.

So 

between each, it's still a little bit of mass. It just needs a clean, it's, it's pain in the ass.

**Kate:** Yeah, we did have composite decking in our house in Galway, many moons ago. So this is kind of like, it's usually, I think it's made of PVC, maybe like recycled PVC normally, uh, we got a kinda a dark brown-ish color, and you can usually [00:21:00] use. Either side of the decking, like some of them have fine grooves and some of 'em are wider grooves.

Um, that was great, right? Because it doesn't rot, right? So you don't have to paint it or stain it or anything. And it's completely washable. It still gets slimy in the wintertime, like it still gets dirty. So you still have to maintain it to an extent. It won't rot like timber. So that's an option if you really want deck, like deck is a bit obviously softer.

You can have raised areas a lot easier than raised areas and you know, concrete and then SLA or stone over it or whatever. So it is a nice option for different levels. Like I've never had a problem with it, but people do talk about. You know, little critters maybe burying themselves under decks and raised decks and stuff in Ireland.

So just watch, watch out for that as well, that it's, you know, well closed in or you have proper rodent control or whatever if you're putting raised areas or raised decks or you know, have a cat that's gonna go in there and get stuck. 

**Jen:** Oh yeah, 

**Kate:** stuff like that. But like deck is a nice option. I just never would never put in a timber deck in Ireland unless you're,[00:22:00] 

**Jen:** it, it's another thing that looks really good and every time I see it on like a TV show, I'm like, what? I wouldn't give to be 

out in the deck with a barbecue. But the reality of our lives is just like,

**Kate:** yeah,

**Jen:** you don't wanna spend twice as long maintaining your garden materials as you do actually enjoying it.

Do you know?

**Kate:** yeah, that's true. 

**Jen:** Yeah. 

**Kate:** And then I guess let's talk about planting, right? I know how you feel on this. You're like,

I can. 

**Jen:** dry. I have strong feelings. I just, I love a gorgeous garden. I love it. It's so nice and I really appreciate people who have green fingers and who are into it, and I just don't have it. Maybe I'll develop it in my later years. I dunno.

**Kate:** You have to. You have to want it, right? You have to want it and love it. Otherwise, you're not going to, and like I see people going in and buying plants, like when they're in, you know, the supermarkets and stuff at certain times a year. And unless you're gonna maintain them, like they'll just die out after a year,

**Jen:** Yeah, and they're expensive plants can, you know, 

you get something like, you know, they're not too much in the, in the supermarket, but they can get very expensive. 

The one thing I do buy, which I manage to keep alive for quite a while in summertime anyway, is those little herb [00:23:00] pots and I plant them. I have little felt vertical, um, pockets on my back wall garden.

And the one thing that stays alive from me always is mint. So if anyone needs mint and

**Kate:** Min's like a weed.

**Jen:** cat mint, I've got spearmint, I've got mint 

**Kate:** The problem isn't keeping mint alive, Jen. It's the problem is trying to kill it off. 

**Jen:** The only thing 

**Kate:** cause it takes over everything. 

**Jen:** everything else 

is gone. the pars gone. 

the

**Kate:** mint in a flower bed. Don't ever plant minted a flower bed. It will strangle every single one of your plants. Plant it 

**Jen:** Yeah. Keep it. Oh yeah. Keep it 

**Kate:** Yeah.

Like it's, it'll take over the whole place. But yeah, it is lovely to have a little herb garden like that or hanging up, um, you and i's little sheltered spot for planting in general. Like, we have a lot of plants, obviously, and this time we planted everything ourself. We had a plan from our garden designer, but we, I, I'm gonna say we, I like Louise Checa, she's amazing, but like we had.

Uh, okay. planted maybe 10% of the plants. Kim probably planted 90% of them, but I was there. I helped, you know, uh, but we, yeah, we do love planting and having a lot of them, and [00:24:00] we, some perennials, we have mixes of kind of. Uh, you know, different flowers and trees and bushes and whatever. Um, but one thing we put in this time is kind of an ornamental tree right in front of our doors.

People are like panicking, like, are they not blocking your light? But like, we're south facing, so it's fine. We can sacrifice it. And it's nicer to have that diffused light in a south facing. So we put a little, it's very trendy at the moment. You probably see in a lot of garden. Uh, pages. If you follow any gardeners, it's called an amelanchier lamarckii.

Lanier. I think that's how you pronounce it. I could be wrong. Um, but it kind of has lovely color leaves and flowers and whatever at different times of the year. So sometimes an ornamental tree is a nice way of dressing a garden. Uh, like they 

**Jen:** Trees are spiny though, aren't they?

**Kate:** Holy moly, like I was not prepared for how skinny they were.

This little tree, now I say little, it's probably two and a half, three meters was 1800 euros. It didn't even have a leaf on it when we bought it. I was like, I was like looking at this like branchy twiggy thing and I was like, Louise, I'm trusting you here that this is gonna look good.

good. 

**Jen:** I

needed to be a money tree at that stage.

**Kate:** it [00:25:00] came, it came into its own and it is, but an ornamental tree.

Now, not all trees are that expensive. That one in particular is a pricey little tree. But like there's lovely, um, the ja Japanese acers, you know, can kind of dwarf, dwarf, dwarf versions of those and stuff for a couple hundred quid and stuff. So I think those types of trees, if you're not green fingered and you don't want to load a plants, so you have to maintain it, you have to weed and you have to do beds and blah, blah, blah.

A little ornamental tree can give you that, you know, and then a few

**Jen:** And they do last forever and they're not too low maintenance, as long as it doesn't grow too big. But

**Kate:** exactly. You have to get one of those varieties that are ornamental or like

**Jen:** So what would your advice be about, 'cause that is interesting that you just plant a tree down 

in 

an area where you know you're looking to maximize light. Well, 

you don't need to maximize light, you have a lot of light.

What would your advice be for people pulling trees in, in garden? Just, I guess just know where the shadow's gonna fall and when. Right.

**Kate:** We are, I suppose, lucky that we have light from every direction kind of, and we have three big openings at the back of our house. Like we have two just sets of French doors and a huge sash [00:26:00] window. This is the center one, and we want it as a focal point tree. The doors were open in the summertime, we see this tree, you know, in the wintertime it still has lovely buds and whatever, you know, so it's, it's kind of, it's a focal point at all times of the year.

And it also gives us a little bit of diffused kind of light in peak summer on that patio outside our door. So it's not. So hot. You know, you're not sitting in direct sunlight because I even think in Dublin when you get that peak summer sun, it's hard to sit out in it in the, in the, in the city because like you have so much concrete and high walls around you that like it's hot.

It's like a hot box. So I think that diffused light and sunlight is kind of nice. Um, but go to a garden center. There's loads of good garden centers and just look at some of the trees and they're in bloom and see what you like to look of. I love Acers. There's another one we got called a forest panzi.

That's a really nice one. It was really affordable as well. Uh, we planted one of those and then there's another one called Black Beauty or Black Lace, that's a fab one that's almost black leaves, and then the flowers come out like really vivid pink. So like, you know, a little focal point tree like that [00:27:00] I think is a really nice way you can even pop the tree if you really want to keep it small, you know?

**Jen:** Yeah, I, my, my experience would be as a non green finger person at all, get a professional gardener in, like, you need to have a 

plan. You need to know what goes where. You can't just throw plants in willy-nilly, and most of your listeners will know that, 

but it looks, it can look really messy, really straggly, if you do it wrong, you can waste loads of money.

Um.

What I have, I have a vertical wall. It's all felt pockets. Um, 

again, 

Johnny Gannon, he's a landscape architect. He, he put in for things that he knew even I wouldn't kill. And I did ultimately kill everything, but it took years. Um, ferns, they did really well for me. They lasted a really long time, pretty much year round.

Um, 

some 

ivy, just climbers. Do you know what I would love to do though? Down the line when I've got a bit more, uh, uh, spare cash is to put in like a sedum wall. Do you have those kind of living moss?

**Kate:** we did a seated roof in our last

**Jen:** you did a seeum roof. Yeah. So 

I would actually love to put in a [00:28:00] sedum wall there. Um, and when I say low maintenance, I mean no maintenance.

Like that's what I'm after.

**Kate:** Yeah. They're lovely. Um, we kind of mentioned it in our layouts, but just pergolas awnings. Do you consider them, I guess consider like shade is as important as getting the sun in ways because sometimes it can shade you from the rain and you can, you don't have to run every time. There's like a tiny spit of rain.

Um, talking about spits of rain and your furniture and your garden. Furniture and maintenance.

**Jennifer:** this

**Jen:** is it. You go in and you see the beautiful furniture and you see the big plush cushions, and they tell you 

that their weather resistant lads are nothing. 

It You're gonna, no. 

**Kate:** have cushion storage, that's easy to throw the cushions in if a shower comes. And also, you know, I know Amanda Bone was kind of given out about this on uh, home of the year. One time. She was like, why does everyone have Ratan furniture in Ireland? I'm like, because we, our climate allows it like,

**Jen:** Yeah, but there's not much else that our climate allows for. 

**Kate:** You put timber furniture out there, unless you're [00:29:00] staining that the next year it's probably gonna be rotten. So like there's a reason. Just pick furniture that's gonna be low maintenance and cushions that can easily rip off and throw into some container somewhere. Because otherwise the best furniture is the one with dry cushions that aren't moldy.

It's, you know, so

**Jen:** And they will go moldy. You're like the co. They look great, but unless you have, you're sure you have somewhere to store them. They're just gonna be a nightmare. Don't 

bother. Um, my garden is tiny, so I don't have furniture other than the full down table. 

I 

have a tiled bench and then I have like hanging chairs, which I 

do need to replace every few years 'cause they're just cheap Ikea folding things that I spray paint.

Um, but what I do have is a hammock, and I would recommend this to 

**Kate:** Love. 

**Jen:** my favorite thing. I 

have two, you know, big hooks, um, installed on my external, uh, walls and I have a hammock that is obviously very easy to fold up and roll away, and it goes into my 

ottoman 

the rest of the year and then it just comes out 

every 

**Kate:** love. 

**Jen:** So easy. It's so cozy and comfortable. You sway back and forth in that bad boy with a [00:30:00] book and a

**Kate:** Nice

**Jen:** slutty, your 

**Kate:** when I get my slushy machine. 

Yeah.

**Jen:** It's heaven. 

Um, but yeah, 

I'm with you. So awnings per goal is, I mean, you can go as as expensive as you want with these things.

You can get these big structures that have heating and lighting and 

play music and do your taxes free and everything like, but there's, uh, or you can just get, you know, a little rollout awning. 

Um, and it 

is worth it. It 

**Kate:** a little roller blind almost.

**Jen:** Like Parisian cafe style almost, you

**Kate:** I love those as well.

**Jen:** they're so nice. Yeah. They're 

really, really nice. If it's something you're only gonna use every now and then and you don't mind the, the physicality of rolling it out, that can be a brilliant option.

**Kate:** Yeah, I've had the same garden furniture there for three or four years. It's the Vem set,

so it was kind of pricey. I think at full price it's two and a half thousand for the whole set, but I think we got it when it was at half price or 1300 or 1400 or something. And that's a, a table and sofa and two armchair.

**Jen:** Mm. 

**Kate:** the, the table goes to lounge height if you're having drinks or then you can put your foot in it and lift up the [00:31:00] dining height so you can

**Jen:** that is so I love that feature. That's so nice. 

**Kate:** Yeah. And I got the cushion storage, so I dump 'em in anytime it's raining and they're perfect. Three or four years on. Yeah,

**Jen:** Needed. 

Uh, 

you also have a garden room in your new garden.

I keep saying new. You're in the house a while now, 

but you're your current garden. 

**Kate:** it, it's a, it's a proper structure. It was there when we bought the house, so we just kind of renovated and put a new roof in and stuff. But, 

um. That's our kind of outdoor kind of office gym kind of area, and we put a little toilet

**Jen:** They are a worthwhile investment and there's, 

they're, they 

keep saying, I dunno if they're in yet potentially new regulations coming down the line, that does allow for them to be up to 45 meters, which they're only allowed up between 25 

and 

40 at the moment, depending on your remaining garden space.

And at the moment, you have to get planning permission for them to be habitable. 

Which means you can't have anyone sleeping in them, with them, out, whatever. That might change too. So it's worth 

looking into that as you're, as you're planning your garden 

room, um, the regulations might have been updated by the time you're doing it.

**Kate:** Well that was part of our planning, that it wasn't allowed to be a habitable [00:32:00] structure when we were 

**Jen:** It currently isn't, but that, that may change.

**Kate:** Fingers crossed.

**Jen:** Fingers crossed.

**Kate:** It'll be my, I'm gonna move out there myself for a bit of quiet time.

**Jen:** You will, and the kids are teenagers. You're gonna be delighted.

**Kate:** That's where they'll be big, but they're friends.

**Jennifer:** Yeah,

**Jen:** Yeah, the smell, keep the

**Kate:** Outta my house.

**Jen:** We're teenagers. 

**Kate:** Okay? 

**Jen:** Okay? So that's it. If you're renovating, uh, it is worth investing. Just get the structure right, get the 

groundwork right and get your connection points right. Planting, I dunno if guys talk to gardener, don't talk to me, talk to Kate.

**Kate:** yeah Talk to Louise Checa

checa. 

**Jen:** Totally Check. 

Um, zone 

it for light. Think about how, how are you maximizing the light, um, in terms of layout and how you're using it. 

And 

think about getting a cover so you can use it year 

round. And do not, guys, do not buy, don't fall for the fancy cushions in the garden shops.

We don't have that kind of climate. I'm sorry.

**Kate:** Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for the turn in the weather. It's coming. I know it.

**Jen:** Hmm. I'll believe 

it when I see 

**Kate:** I will hold my breath.

**Jen:** Okay. We'll see you 

**Kate:** see you next

week. [00:33:00] Bye.


## Episode


## Outro

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