What Your Kitchen Designer Wishes You Knew - Trade Secrets

Everyone dreams about their new kitchen, but what does a kitchen designer wish every homeowner knew before they started planning one?

In this episode of Trade Secrets, we hear from Dawn from Savvy Kitchens, the designer behind both Kate's kitchens and Jennifer's own kitchen renovation. Dawn shares the five biggest lessons she's learned from designing kitchens every day, from planning layouts before your drawings are finalised to avoiding the trap of designing for Instagram instead of real life. 

What we cover

•  Why your kitchen should be designed before construction drawings are signed off 
•  How kitchen layouts influence glazing, door positions, electrics and plumbing 
•  Where your kitchen budget is best spent, and where you can save 
•  Why expensive features aren't always the best investment 
•  The importance of communicating changes early 
•  Why every kitchen should be designed around your family's daily routine 
•  Common mistakes people make when copying Pinterest and Instagram kitchens 
•  Practical examples from Jennifer and Kate's own kitchen renovations 

Key takeaways

•  Design your kitchen around how you actually live, not how you wish you lived 
•  Bring your kitchen designer in as early as possible 
•  Invest in the features you'll use every single day 
•  Don't be afraid to challenge assumptions and ask questions 
•  A beautiful kitchen is one that works effortlessly for your lifestyle 

Whether you're choosing an IKEA kitchen or a fully bespoke design, these are the principles that make every kitchen function better. 

Follow the podcast on Instagram @ripitup_podcast_official, or follow us - Jenny is @workerscottage and Kate is @victorianrathmines

Transcript

# Kitchen trade secrets

**Jennifer:** [00:00:00] Welcome to our new season, Trade Secrets

**Kate:** We're handing the microphone to the people who actually build, wire, plumb, and finish our homes

**Jennifer:** And we're asking them, what are the top five things that every home renovator should know?

**Kate:** The mistakes to avoid, the money worth spending, and tips to make every renovation run a little more smoothly



**Jennifer:** Welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Kate

Trade Secrets continues. Uh, you guys seem to be loving the series. Thank you everyone who sent us messages or questions. We love hearing from you, so keep it up. Um, this week we are talking uh,

our kitchen supplier who 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** my kitchen and two of your kitchens.

**Kate:** savvy, yeah. We couldn't go to anyone else really talking about kitchens, considering we've only used them for our kitchens

**Jennifer:** You put me onto them and I had a great experience, so

wouldn't go anywhere else, um, based on 

**Kate:** No 

**Jennifer:** you didn't either. Um, so we... [00:01:00] This one we got text written

back, so we'll read them back, uh, and we 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** talk about them, same format as our other episodes. what Yeah, I've got a lot to

to, to this because 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** there was so much in the kitchen design, and we talk about this all the time, how important it is, how it's the first part of the house that we always design, how it's good to get things done and done early.

But like, all those lessons I learned from

**Kate:** Yeah. I mean, they're very, very thorough in the planning stages, and they won't just say,

know, "Fine, you want that style, this l- layout." They won't just take that and run with it. They'll, like, really grill you on why you want it that way, you know? And the right answer is not 'cause you saw a picture on Instagram, because in our experience, Dawn won't design the kitchen for you that way.

**Jennifer:** and she's 

**Kate:** She's like, "Yeah,

is [00:02:00] that actually how you're gonna use it? Is that actually how your kitchen's gonna look?" You know?

**Jennifer:** So I went down, Savvy do custom kitchens, and even if you're listening to this and custom is not in your budget for this, you know, whatever renovation you're facing, I think there's so many lessons in this that you can still apply to designing your own kitchen. Um, or we recommend going to Savvy, or, you know, if you're going somewhere else, you should expect this

think, of 

**Kate:** I think so, yeah

**Jennifer:** of planning, of kind of interrogation. Um, I really strongly feel, personally, that even if you have a fixed idea of what you want your kitchen to be, people who design and install kitchens all day, every day should be listened to, because they've picked up so many learned, and they've made all their mistakes, and they know what works and what doesn't, so I do think they're worth listening to.

Anyway, that is my

**Kate:** Yeah, I agree. If you're going into a kitchen place and you're not specifically a design professional [00:03:00] yourself, they should be really grilling your initial thoughts on your layout, like why you want it that way. You know, the, i- if they're worth, if they're worth anything at all as a design, a kitchen design place, they will ask you all those questions, and they will get to the, the root of your reasoning, I think

**Jennifer:** Agreed. let's dive into the questions. So same format as our previous few episodes. The first question we asked was, need to plan this earlier than you

So Savvy's answer was, "Your 

**Kate:** Hmm. 

**Jennifer:** should be considered before any construction drawings are signed off really. A simple door location can sometimes make or break a kitchen workflow. Have your kitchen planned before any first fix electrics and plumbing, so everything from lighting and sockets to window positions and structural details are all designed around how you'll actually live in the space. planning saves money, avoids compromises, and it gives you a much

result." 

**Kate:** Yeah

**Jennifer:** this all the time, and like, I went down to Savvy on your [00:04:00] recommendation with my plans, which

fixed yet. 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** a good heads-up that, like, that

**Kate:** Yeah, and usually if you, if you have an architect, they'll typically put in some basic kinda layouts. Some architects are more involved than at that, you know, at that level of detail or design, and some architects aren't and they'll just put literally boxes where the run of units and an island might fit or something like that.

But I think it's really important to run through

before those drawings are finally signed off, is that the layout you want? Because things like appliances and wiring and like Dawn said in her message, a doorway. You know, if you don't have enough space for a standard 60 depth unit to open beside that opening, you know, they'll be crashing into each other.

Or like, you know, the doors aren't opening on top of each other, or you're covering a plug socket that you need or something like that. So like

those bits are actually, you- you're, it's [00:05:00] surprising how soon you need them. But you don't need to have, that doesn't mean you need to have like, "Oh, I'm going for a green door and quartz countertops."

Like, it just literally means putting the correct blocks in the correct spaces, and you've thought how many of those blocks you need from your own, you know, requirements.

**Jennifer:** And like, it's, it seems simple, especially if you have a small kitchen. But I just wanna give, like, an example of the impact of that process in this house. So if anyone's watching, you'll see, you can see my kitchen layout. Okay, it's a bit of a mess at the moment, 'cause I haven't tidied it up properly. Or if you're listening, you'll find loads of pictures of my kitchen on Instagram at Workers Cottage. But my house was-- at the back of my house was an L-shaped extension, right? always gonna be an L-shaped extension, and it was always gonna have an extension on one specific side because

and the aspect of the 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** that would come in having it on that side. with an L-shaped extension, that kind of left, like, three areas or sections, kind of living, kitchen, dining. [00:06:00] And unclear, you know, at, at build stage, like, what section was gonna be which. So originally, my kitchen was going to be where my living

now. The thinking being that 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** a kind of a U-shaped kitchen with a peninsula coming out from is now the kind of central beam between two sliding doors, and that that sliding-- one of the sliding doors would actually be a window instead of sliding doors. And when we down and talked about how I use my kitchen, what I need to every day, what my movements generally are through a house, how I want to use my garden, how I want to use my living room, the fact that I don't have a TV. Lots of things came together to say, "Well, actually, position for my kitchen is

the extension with a full 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** you know, floor-to-ceiling cabinets, with no overhead cabinets , which I don't like and didn't need that extra wall space for, and a bigger peninsula in the middle."

So that's a huge change and wouldn't have been possible, I think, even if, [00:07:00] you know, the foundational

**Kate:** Yeah, and it's in, it, it's a really good point though, like how much more you might have fit in by just changing that around, or how much more glazing, like depending on what your priority is. But like for me, when I look at a kitchen, I'm like, "Where is my tall bank going? Where is my oven, if it's an eye, eye-level oven, where is my fridge and my freezer and those tall units going?"

'Cause they have to fit somewhere, like they have to be able to open. So you have to kinda anchor those as well as, say, your hob and your sink, and then with those kinda anchored, you can kinda build stuff around. And it's really interesting you say about the wrap there, and some people, some people plan their glazing, they're like, "I just want loads of sliders the whole back," and then they realize they don't have enough wall length for cabinetry.

And they're like, "Oh, my hob can't go alongside my sink now, it has to go over there," or they're squeezing it and then you're left with little slivers of countertop, and maybe a wrap might have been better in their scenario, you know? [00:08:00] So like, it's, it's interesting how, how the kitchen can impact, you know, your glazing, your openings, the distance those doors or windows start from a corner.

I always say to people, like, "Unless you're 100, 100 million percent sure that you don't want furniture on that wall, take the start of those doors out 60 to 70 centimeters," 60 absolutely minimum centimeters, but like ideally 70 centimeters plus, so if you're stuck you can put a cabinet in there or you can run the cabinetry up to that corner.

**Jennifer:** Yeah. give yourself that, that option. Um, which I do have in, in the, in the extension. But if I hadn't done that, I ... This, the room that I'm sitting in now, it's tiny. Like, it's, you know, 2.5 meters maybe by, by 2 to 2.5 in each of those sections. Like, we're talking about a really small space. But when you walk in, the number one thing everyone says is, "Oh my God, did you knock into next door?"

feel small, and I, I don't think that that effect would've been achieved the original kitchen layout where,

the two [00:09:00] sets of sliders. Almost 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** you're saying, it could, you know, you're saying if, if you've got a big house, you're taking up a whole wall, you're actually sacrificing more than you think. I think I assumed because I had a small house, I had to

one wall kitchen 

**Kate:** Mm. 

**Jennifer:** But actually because of cleverness of Don's design, I, I didn't, and it make, it opens the space up so much and makes it feel so

It really brings the outside in. So 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** I just cannot stress enough how early bringing in that designer and trusting that, you know, that those skills, I think is really, really important to your overall design, not even just

Huge. 

**Kate:** earlier than you think for sure

**Jennifer:** Okay, second question. When it comes to kitchens, what should you spend more money on? spend your money on the things that will make your life easier every single day. Invest in quality cabinetry, good storage, and appliances that improve how you live. extractor fan, boiling water tap, okay, we'll disagree on that, an oven with features like assisted cooking [00:10:00] functions are all things that you'll appreciate for years to come. cooker, for example, might look beautiful, but if it doesn't suit your family's lifestyle, it's not necessarily the best investment. Buy for the way that you live, not just the way that it

**Kate:** I think Donal's just given a list of all the things that can make certain people's life easier, and it depends on you. And I think it's good to assess, you know, what are those things, like your non-negotiables that you really want in your kitchen. So it might be, like I love cabinetry. So like, do you remember we spoke about this before, you didn't go for, say, some of the kind of detailed, on the inside of the cabinetry where we did all the dovetail joints and all that.

And people are like, "Why would you bother spending money on that?" I don't know. I just love seeing that kind of joinery when I open the cabinet. So that, for me, was important. I agree with you. I could take or leave the b- the boiling water tap, but I'd take sparkling water tap all day long, till my d- yeah, but they come together, unfortunately, so it's hard to have one without the other.

But yeah, it's really important to work [00:11:00] out like what you need. I love the look of those colorful ranges and everything that Don's mentioning there, but they are 100% a design choice because I d- I don't think you can argue that those are more functional than modern eye level appliances. 

**Jennifer:** and I've lived with 

**Kate:** Am I wrong? 

**Jennifer:** because the house that I grew up in, um,

we a- we had an AGA. We had a- an AGA 

**Kate:** Hmm. 

**Jennifer:** big old AGA. It, it, it did all the heating for the whole house. I learned to cook on that AGA. I learned to bake in that AGA. I, I agree with you and I agree with Dawn that you have to

for yourself what do you want.

If 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** your lifestyle

you, and you like having a range that's 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** always warm, that is not, you know, super specific in its temperature, that you know how to deal with and how to work with, then that is the right choice for you. If you're not, if you just, you know, cook sometimes in the evenings or you mostly use your hob and not your oven or whatever, different choices will work for you.

[00:12:00] So it's, it all comes down to what works for your life, which is

Dawn is saying. But do not be 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** by a pretty finish, because much as I loved that AGA, and they look so beautiful, like, it's, you're changing your lifestyle

**Kate:** Yeah, it is very romantic though, and it really does look beautiful in certain kitchens. I don't think I'll honestly ever own one because I really do like a functional kitchen. I like to cook a lot, practically, and, like, the two of us tend to cook a lot together. So, like, we'd be on top of each other, I think, if we were in a range, had a, had a range.

Um, but one thing that spills over into this kind of spend more money on, you have to ask yourself about countertops 'cause it's a big part of your budget as well as appliances, right? So, like, I always say, like,

You have your base cabinetry, which could be anywhere from 15 to 50K, like, depending on your specs and the size of your kitchen.

And then the next bucket is your appliances, which might be 5K, but they might be 20K, you know, like, depending on the spec of your appliances and the number of them. [00:13:00] And then the third bucket is your countertops. And, like, countertops, people don't want marble because, you know, it's more maintenance, or they don't want quartz because, I don't know, it's, it's more expensive than a standard laminate or whatever.

So, like, I think you have to decide as well from that bucket, that countertop bucket, whether it's worth spending money on porcelain so it's heat-resistant and it's bomb-proof if you have kids or whatever and you're not wanna mining it. And for me, like, that was definitely something that I planned into my kitchen this time.

I spent more money on my countertops because I wanted real stone, but I wanted quartzite because quartzite is the bomb-proof version of real stone, and that's why I kind of budgeted for it early. So I think it's important to budget for, yeah, you and your day-to-day

**Jennifer:** Yeah, 100,000%. And I think I'll add to that, at the moment, there's more choice recently, I think, in appliance options than there were [00:14:00] even when I was choosing. 'Cause when I was choosing, you know, five, six years ago, were, you know, smart ovens and smart appliances. They were all crap, to be honest. Like, they were

**Kate:** Different settings on the same thing, same hardware

**Jennifer:** same hardware, different settings, just kind of trying to lean in, I guess, to

of it, was my interpretation. 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** there are genuinely, you know, pretty incredible appliances out there, like ovens with the ca- computer vision in them that will

cook your food for you and, you know, you 

**Kate:** Mm. 

**Jennifer:** the whole thing from your phone. And, like, you have that gorgeous drawer, the Fisher & Paykel fridge drawer that can be set to different temperatures.

you're somebody who entertains a lot or,

**Kate:** Or you're in a heat wave and you want a whole drawer full of cold drinks.

**Jennifer:** Which I do desperately, I'm so jealous. Or, know, uh, dishwashers that are, they're Fisher & Paykel. I saw them when I was in New Zealand a couple years ago. They're [00:15:00] dishwashers that are the same size and height as a normal dishwasher, but they have two separate drawers,

them separately, so you can do, like, a half 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** Like, I just think there's, there are genuinely excellent appliances out there now. And of course, you know, downdraft extractor hubs, all that kind of stuff has to be thought about and, and, and bought in. So if you're at the outset of choosing your kitchen, don't underestimate what you

from your appliances when you go looking, and figure, see what's out there, 'cause it's finally, I think, genuinely

and interesting now. 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** Um, okay. On the flip side of that point, our next question for Savvy was, "Don't waste money on..." Uh, and it's really just the, the reverse of this, uh, answer, right? So don't spend money on something that won't suit your lifestyle. Design your kitchen around the way that you actually live and not the way that you think

live.

Like, this 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** it's such a risk, it's such a trap, because you fall down a rabbit hole of, [00:16:00] Pinterest and Instagram and seeing amazing things in other people's kitchens and forgetting that you are not that person, and you don't have their life, and

**Kate:** would you consider a waste of money in a kitchen, though? Like, I, I love kitchen so much, nothing feel- feels like a waste to me. Like, so I'd spend all my budget there and have no couch, to be honest. But

**Jennifer:** example, I 

**Kate:** Yeah. 

**Jennifer:** great, and 

**Kate:** Fair enough 

**Jennifer:** God, how handy, a hot water tap." 

**Kate:** Hmm. 

**Jennifer:** number one, the cost of it, two, the amount of under counter space it would

which I didn't have to sacrifice, and 

**Kate:** Mm. 

**Jennifer:** I was like, "I don't

that much hot water." 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** I have a cup of coffee in the mornings, but I

it in my mocha pot, so no use to me 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** uh, I might have a cup of

enough for 

**Kate:** Not enough to warrant.

**Jennifer:** So 

**Kate:** And also,

**Jennifer:** overall a bad investment for lots 

**Kate:** yeah And also controversially, I think, you [00:17:00] know, induction hobs are so fast at boiling water now that, like, the idea of filling up a pot full of boiling water to boil pasta is almost redundant because the b- the bo- or the boiling water tap spits out water fairly slow at boiling.

You know, it doesn't come out at full

pressure. It comes out from the tank. So to fill a pot for pasta, you could be talking 60 seconds to fill that pot 

**Jennifer:** that's all over? 

**Kate:** Rubbish. Like, what the

Oh, I can't lift three liters from there to there. Like, go away. Like, it's so ridiculous.

still have to wash it. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

**Jennifer:** Yeah. 

**Kate:** gone now. They're gone with the wind.

Yeah.

I... The only other thing I would consider a slight waste, appliances if you don't care about them, so things like freezers that are really, really expensive or fridges that are really, really expensive that mightn't have better functionality than the, you know, the lower models.

So that's something that I think could be a waste. And [00:18:00] also, I think, I know this is controversial, but hardware sometimes, like the knobs and stuff. Like,

I don't appreciate lovely, gorgeous, patinated brass hardware on kitchens. Gorgeous. But am I gonna spend thousands on it when my budget's tight in the middle of a renovation?

Probably not. And I think it's something that's very easy, yeah, it's easy to change later as well.

**Jennifer:** Yeah, 

**Kate:** consider them a waste

**Jennifer:** your handles no problem later, I totally 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** And back to what I was saying about appliances, you are not somebody who is going to use the smart features of your kitchen appliances, and I would interrogate that really carefully.

If you will, and you think that's really cool, and you're gonna get loads of use out of it, amazing. Go for it, 'cause there's lots of cool stuff out there. you are not, do not spend money on it. Number one, it's gonna be a waste of your money. Number two, it introduces a

failure points in that appliance. 

**Kate:** Hmm. 

**Jennifer:** there's extra circuitry, extra computer power, whatever, uh, sensors, everything, everything, [00:19:00] everything in that appliance, those are all things that can break and go wrong, and can be hard to repair down the line. So just really bear

before

to go for it 

**Kate:** Yeah, agree 

**Jennifer:** Okay, question number four. Do this to avoid kitchen headaches. The smoothest projects are always the ones where everyone communicates. Oh my gosh, Dawn, we love you. Make decisions early, keep your plans updated, and don't be afraid to ask questions, and don't presume someone is thinking the same as you. Be extra clear about what you want. A little planning and communication upfront can prevent expensive changes, delays, and

**Kate:** Yeah. And like we, we're kind of like, you know, harping on about this now so many times in the last few episodes. But like it is,

I know.

but I think like it's easy to say that, but then when it comes to it in the middle of a renovation, you kinda take for granted sometimes that they, they know what you're talking about, but they don't.

They could be on multiple jobs and joiners are making multiple kitchens for sure at one time, so don't [00:20:00] assume that they know your kitchen like you do and to the level of detail you do. You know? Because it's only your kitchen. You only have to remember one, they might have to remember 10 at any one time.

So like communication and don't be afraid to point something out if you've forgotten something or it's a mistake. The earlier you can point it out, the better, even if it's a tiny, teeny bit awkward to point it out

**Jennifer:** I did that actually with, with this kitchen. So again, listener, if you're watching, Savvy Kitchen installed this banquette seating in my dining area for me as well, along with my kitchen. It all matches. Um, if you're not watching, you

can see that on, on YouTube. And 

**Kate:** Mm. 

**Jennifer:** not specify that I wanted a slant on the back of my banquette because I assumed that all banquette seats had a slant or a slope to make

you know, easier to sit against. Um, Savvy didn't because that's not a correct assumption. Plenty of banquette seats are just straight-backed, and, you know, you throw your cushions on it or whatever. it came, and it was installed, and I was like, "No, I don't like that. When you sit back in it, I can [00:21:00] feel the top ridge. Surely, obviously, Savvy, it's meant to have a slope on it." they were like, "Well, you should have told us," you know, and they took everything away, and they remade it, and they replaced it, and, you know, that's why we love them, but, and it was no issue because I kind of, you know, said it as early as possible

of the kitchen had gone in. Um, 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** but that's an example, like I just assumed that all banquettes had, had

slant or a slope, so it's always better to be

**Kate:** Yeah, same thing happened to our coffee machine. So like our, you know, our pantry is our coffee station, and like I had said that it's a coffee station, but I guess we probably didn't go to the level of detail of me sending the coffee machine that I had on, which is a behemoth. Like it's huge. So, uh, it wasn't deep enough.

And uh, I saw the, our pantry and saw, I was like, "Why is that clad kind of so far out from the chimney breast?" And they were like, "Oh, that's the depth of this," and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, "I don't think that's gonna fit my coffee machine." And [00:22:00] we, we were like talking about like would we put it in the open section around the corner?

And I was like, "I really don't want to. I just wanna put this coffee machine out of sight," especially kind of, you know, it can be slightly messy and whatever. It's something I like to close off in the evening time. So we measured it, measured the coffee machine. No, no way it's gonna fit. So the, the, the backing of that whole pantry had to kind of be revised on site, which took a bit more time.

Because it was veneered wood as well, uh, that made it a bit more complicated. But as soon as, you know, if you see something, or say, see something, say something. 

**Jennifer:** Yeah. 

**Kate:** That should really be employed here.

like, uh, if anything tweaks in your drawings, especially like, you know, sockets, switches, whatever, think about all those positions, and if something changes for whatever reason, make sure it's explicit and make sure it's communicated.

Things aren't crashing

**Jennifer:** Yeah. And that's, we always, that's why we always say go to the site, do a walkthrough, your measuring tape, like, and again, plan for how you live,

that coffee machine. That wouldn't have been 

**Kate:** Hmm. 

**Jennifer:** bumped up against, but it's

you bumped up [00:23:00] against. And then 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** the lesson being don't make assumptions, but if something is wrong, say it to them when they're on site, and like most people will want to work with you

you know, come up to a solution.

**Kate:** Yeah. We did. My coffee machine fits all as well.

**Jennifer:** And my banquette seating is sloped and per- and beautifully comfortable, and I love it. Um, okay, last question. Uh, what is the biggest mistake that homeowners makes? The biggest mistake homeowners make is designing a kitchen based on looks before thinking about how they actually live in it. Every family cooks, entertains, shops, and lives differently.

A kitchen should be designed around your daily routine, the space that you are working with, not copied from a, a magazine or Instagram. So I think we've covered that. I do wanna mention, is something that Dawn did with me when I went down to Savvy to design my kitchen, and if your kitchen designer doesn't do it, it's something that you should do

a different kitchen designer. 

**Kate:** Red flag, red flag.

**Jennifer:** like I, I can't 

**Kate:** Mm 

**Jennifer:** are in this [00:24:00] thing, but I went down, I was like, "Well, I want a Smeg fridge and

Like, you know, I was like, 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** I have my design sorted, guys. Thanks. Yeah, can you just go ahead and build that?" And Dawn was like, "Adorable.

Yeah, sh- show me those pictures

your questionnaire." So she 

**Kate:** Yeah. 

**Jennifer:** sit down and go through this super detailed questionnaire covering, like, do I bake more? Do I roast dinners every week? Do I entertain? Where do people hang out in my house? Like, what, what are my

it was a, 

**Kate:** Details. Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** it means that the kitchen I have now is so easy to use, works exactly for me and my life, and how I, you know,

entertain,

**Kate:** Yeah. this is something where you and I differ, right? Like, I don't have any, uh, high cabinets, right? I don't have any high cabinets, but I understand kinda where they're necessary. When people say to me, "Oh, I want an open shelf," wh- what are you gonna put in the open shelf? See, you can't design for this beautiful [00:25:00] styled shelf you saw on Instagram if you're gonna put all your kids' lunchboxes and bottles up there.

Like, it's pointless. Don't have an open shelf then. You know? So I think that things like that really, you know, speak to, like, designing for how you live day to day. And I have an open shelf, but I have a hidey corner for all the fucking mess. Like, do you know? So when I'm working at the hob, like, all my oils and everything go in there and no one can see them, and then my shelf has a picture on it and some nice cookbooks and, you know, a few serving things that look nice.

So, like, I think it's really important to step through the realism of the layout you're looking at. And when I see people designing kitchen now with no hidey corner or nowhere for the mess and they're a family, I'm like, "Absolutely not." Like, 

**Jennifer:** And 

**Kate:** are you ordering every night and not cooking?

**Jennifer:** like 

**Kate:** Yeah

**Jennifer:** your family. 'Cause I have a friend who put in these gorgeous open shelves, and she is very neat, and she is very tidy, and she does keep it all, the way it's supposed to look, but her husband doesn't. In come the keys, in comes the post, it's all fecked on this one shelf, and she's like,

just put it in this other place?" [00:26:00] So, 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** you

**Kate:** Yeah, design for the junk drawer or the hidey corner beside your hob or, you know, something that you can easily, you know, hide and put away the mess. And don't, for God's sake, put in an open shelf unless you know exactly what you're gonna put in that open shelf and it's gonna look nice. Otherwise, it just makes your whole kitchen look messier, in my opinion.

It doesn't make it look better in the long run if it's just messy all the time. Um, and the same goes for marble. Like, loads of people are like, "I love this Calacatta Viola," or whatever. Cool. Like, are you nervous about staining? "Oh, I love it." But, like, are you nervous about staining? Are you nervous about, like, watermarks on it?

And then people are like, "Ugh," you know, curry or a red wine ring left too long there, and now you've a stain or now you've a ring. Yeah.

like, you know, really think about how you're gonna live. That's kind of half the reason, like I said earlier, I went for quartzite. I was like, I liked the look of quartzite, but also I knew it would be a bit more forgiving than me putting in [00:27:00] some beautiful Calacatta that was gonna be wrecked 

**Jennifer:** Yeah 

**Kate:** couple of months later.

so yeah, design for life, design for mess.

**Jennifer:** or Viola, whatever people like. If 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** through that decision process and decide, yes, this is for me,

do it because I, 

**Kate:** Yeah 

**Jennifer:** you know, for

natural stone. If you 

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jennifer:** work for your home, if you think it could work for your lifestyle, if you know you won't mind the odd stain or chip, then I think you should do it, and I think it is worth the

If you don't, it isn't,

**Kate:** Yeah. And if you ever watch, do you ever watch the TV show with Devol Kitchens? Uh, it was on, like, I can't remember what channel it was on at one stage, but, like, anyway, it wasn't renewed for a second or third season. But they used to talk about stone, and they were like, "We think stone is just so beautiful, like, that we would never spec anything but natural stone.

But we think the patina over time is, it's beauty, like aging it in," and you know. So if you're picking finishes like that or finishes that are veneered wood [00:28:00] maybe that might, you know, mark a little bit more, but they might age in a bit nicer as well. So, like, you just have to be comfortable with the aging and the dings it might get and stuff like that.

Make sure you're happy with all that.

**Jennifer:** Agreed. 

**Kate:** Yeah.

**Jennifer:** All right. That is Trade Secrets from your kitchen

and

week

**Kate:** Mm-hmm. Talk to you then

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