S9 E5: Katie Williams: Burnout, Boundaries, and Life After Retail

In this episode we sit down with Katie Williams - former senior merchandiser at Topman and Quiz Clothing, psychotherapist, and founder of her own coaching business - to talk about the realities of building a career in fashion retail, what burnout actually looks like from the inside, and why the skills you develop in buying and merchandising translate far beyond the shop floor.

Katy takes us through her accidental entry into merchandising, 10 years at Topman during its heyday, her move to Scotland, and the moment she realised she needed to completely reimagine her career. She's refreshingly honest about the role her own psychology played in her burnout and what she's learned since.

Three Key Takeaways

1. Your self-worth is not your sell-through.
Katie describes how her entire mood was dictated by whether her department was hitting plan - and how unsustainable that is long term. Learning to detach your sense of self from your performance metrics isn't about caring less; it's about being able to show up consistently without burning out.

2. Most of the time, it's not the company - it's us.
One of Katie most powerful observations is that we are often unconsciously using work to avoid stillness, feelings, and our own thoughts. Taking personal responsibility for how we operate — rather than blaming the environment — is the first step to real change.

3. Clear is kind.
Whether managing a team or having a difficult conversation with a direct report, Katies advice is simple: honest, direct feedback is always kinder than vague or avoided feedback. If your team doesn't know where they stand, that's on you as a manager.

Find Katie:
Instagram: @katywilliamscoaching, Website: https://www.katiewilliams.co.uk/
Free training: Quit Your Stress (available via her Instagram)
Group programme: Glide — relaunching 10th June

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Buying and Beyond, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of retail buying, we can talk to all things retail buying and beyond with real people in retail. So grab your drink of choice and come and have a gigger with us. This episode is sponsored by the Buyers Club.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

If you work in retail buying, you'll know that this role is unlike any other. It's creative, commercial, fast-moving, and incredibly rewarding. But it can also be high pressure and full on. The Buyers Club exists to support you through it all.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Built from feedback from over 400 retail buyers, it's a dedicated community designed to help you grow, connect, and thrive in your career. Inside you'll find in-person networking events, monthly online catch-ups, career clinics, mentoring and sounding board support, curated trend edits, retail insights, members-only podcast extras, and a few exclusive perks along the way. Because while tools and technology can support your role, nothing replaces community. If you want to feel more connected, more confident, and more supported in your buying career, head to our homepage for more information on how to join our club. The future of buying isn't just smarter, it's more connected. Now let's get into today's episode. So hi everyone. This week we're joined by Katie Williams, a former merchandiser at Top Man and Quiz Clothing, and now a psychotherapist, career coach, and founder of her own coaching business, helping ambitious women navigate confidence, burnout, career change, and the pressures that come with high-performing environments. After spending 15 years working in fast-paced fashion retail, leading teams through growth, restructures, and constant change, Katie stepped away from the industry to retrain in psychotherapy and coaching. And today she combines her first-hand experience of corporate retail culture with mindset coaching and therapy tools to support people in building careers and lives that feel more sustainable, confident, and aligned. We were so lucky to have Katie join us as one of our guest speakers at our Edinburgh event, where her honest perspective on confidence, Southwest, and navigating pressure in the workplace really, really resonated with our community. So, Katie, it's so nice to see you again.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Lovely to see you as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

No worries. We can't thank you enough for joining us at our event. Well, it must be over a month ago now. I can't believe where has the time gone.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Yeah, it feels like it was a long time ago, but it was it was so much fun. I loved it. It was just having to get the train home that was the annoying bit for me. Because I wanted to stay.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

I was gonna say because you didn't want to go. Which I didn't stay all night. It seemed to be the vibe in the room, didn't it? It was one of those events where when people started to sort of make movements, you sort of like looked at the watch and said, Oh my god, the event ended 30 minutes ago, but we're all still here. And that was just like the first one or two starting to like make a little bit of kind of movement and start to be like, Oh, I might think to go. We were there like gone closing time, I feel like it was starting to tube up around us, but it was such a nice vibe, and so many people having so many great conversations around a topic that is so familiar to so many of us.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

Yeah, yeah. I think events like that, it you there was almost like quite a lot of relief in the room, like people having the same conversations and going, like, oh, it's not just me, and really sharing. I think, especially in Scotland, there are a lot of smaller retailers, and often you might get just like one or two people in the buying and merchandising functions. And so people do feel more isolated. And to have the event in Edinburgh, I think was just so lovely for people, and it was really eye-opening for me that there were there were that many retailers with buying functions because you know, when I've been looking for jobs up here before training, it seemed like there was absolutely nothing. So it was really nice to see how many retailers up here are big enough to need at least one buyer.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a really refreshing moment, wasn't it? So, Katie, do you want to give us a bit of a brief overview of your career history?

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Mm-hmm. Well, I think you just did a quite a good job, Lindsay, of summarising it. But yeah, I started at Topman in 2005. Yes, which was a long time ago now. And I started as a an MAA, a merch admin assistant, and then I was there for 10 years and I worked my way up to senior merchandiser. And after that, I moved to Scotland, I worked for a couple of retailers up here, and it was it was really the move up here and the lack of opportunity in merchandising specifically that that made me think I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably need to retrain here. It seemed like I had quite limited options, and I was thinking, you know, uh about the next like 30 years of my career and thinking, well, I can't I can't live here and kind of scrabble around for opportunities. And I don't think it's the same now, it might it might be better, but I can't live here and scrabble around for opportunities. I'm gonna have to make a shift, and it was such a shock. I think I was so naive when I was living in London because there's just you know, it felt like at the time there was opportunities everywhere. I never really looked because I was I really loved my time at Top Man. I loved those 10 years so much.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

So it was a bit of a shock when I moved to Glasgow and realised like, well, there isn't this abundance of opportunities in in retail in the way that there is in London.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

What prompted the move to Glasgow?

SPEAKER_04 6:03

A very long personal story, which I probably won't go too much into. But yeah, essentially my ex-partner wanted to move up. He is Scottish and he wanted to move up. And I think although I had absolutely loved the job at Hot Man, I was starting to get quite burnt out, I was starting to get quite exhausted, and in my mind, it was the job and it was London. Yeah. Nothing to do with me and my crazy lifestyle of constantly going out and constantly working. I mean nothing at all to do with that.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

And I just was like, why don't I I I want a slower pace of life. Um, I had also at that point been thinking about retraining. It had kind of been planted as a bit of seed as a seed in my mind. And I think one of the things, again, thinking it wasn't me, one of the things I realized was that I put a lot into my work. I put a lot of energy, I put a lot of emotion into my work, but I felt like the industry almost wasn't worth the amount of emotion I put into it.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, the balance was there, it was off weight.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Yeah. And so I was like, well, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna always put this much emotion and energy into my work, I need it to be something that is uh emotionally rewarding for me in a way that my job as a merchandiser wasn't. Of course, now I I I know very different. And actually, I think if I knew all the things that I know now in that merchandising job, it would have felt very different to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I think that's really interesting that you say that because we were speaking with Lavana just the other week from the buying side of things, because I think what you're talking about is like these kind of tools and techniques and everything that you learn around coaching, that actually, if you'd have been equipped with that from earlier on, you may have actually felt like actually merchandising was something that you weren't putting all this emotion and too heavily attached into, and actually you could like regulate it a little better, but it's having these tools, and I think that's why you're so well positioned doing what you're doing now.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Yeah, there's there's definitely an irony to it of like, you know, if I if I if I knew all the things, and the thing is it's like we talk about things like tools and techniques, but it's actually a fundamental like undoing of of who you are as a person when you're doing the kind of work that I do with clients. Like I was my my entire self-worth was tied to my job. And I think when you're in a a role like buying or or merchandising, you can you can literally see the fruits of your labour, like it's in black and white, like this is how much money your department is making, this is how much profit your department is making. And so, at least for me, and I'm sure it's the case for a lot of people, if my department was doing well and we were hitting plan or we were hitting forecast, I would feel good. If the department wasn't doing well, then I wouldn't feel good. And that, I mean, to have to have your mood so tied to what's happening at work is just it's not sustainable. Um, and I had to fundamentally undo my relationship with achievement, my relationship with productivity and output, and more is better and faster is better, and and detach from kind of those emotional swings of good and bad and live in in much more in a space of neutrality. Um you know, working for myself, and I'm sure you will both get this. Like, we cannot have our mood too much dictated by what's happening at work because it's a wild ride being self-employed. So I've so I'm so glad I learned everything that I did learn, otherwise, I don't I would not be coping well.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, because so many of these so so many of these things are out of our control. Yeah, you know, there's only so much that you can determine. But actually, in terms of like retail and trade, there are so many external factors. You could have bought the best product, the best range, but if it's hidden in a storeroom, stock room because no one's put it out, or it's not even made it yet because there's some sort of geopolitical issue that you've had no part in, but has stopped that product from even arriving. Of course, you're not gonna be hitting your numbers. So there's so many external factors out there, and they're just a couple of reasons that it's you can do the best job in the world, but working extra hours is not going to change any of those things. Consumer spending, like you know, cost of living pressures at the moment, it doesn't matter how many hours you work as a buyer or merchandiser, it's not really gonna make that much difference to actually converting those customers, it's out of your control.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Yeah. I think there's so much need to anyone that works in a buying or merchandising role, I think has to be passionate. And I was always so impressed by the people that I worked with. They were so passionate, they were so good at their jobs. I think there is a way of being passionate and being, you know, really good at your job without having it dictate your mood. And I think that's the thing that that a lot of people don't understand. It's like, oh, well, if I turn down how much I care, like I'll be less good at my job because I'll just be like slapdash and just make like decisions and and not think about them. And actually, like there's so much in the work that I do, which is about being quite strategic and intentional with where you place your energy and emotion. And it is possible to to really care about your job and be really good at your job without burning out.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's an industry where that is just such a big problem. But sort of winding back then, Katie, what made you go into merchandising in the first place? Like talk us through how you got started in in the world of you know, retail.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

Um, it was a complete accident. I think when I came out of university, I really wanted to work in the public sector. So I'd done law and sociology at university, and I was looking at like charities, public organizations, government jobs. I was applying like left, right, and centre for as many things in in those kind of areas as I could and just getting nothing. And I think I spoke to a recruitment consultant one day, just randomly, one that was based in London, because I I was living just outside of London at the time, and they explained, they said, Have you ever thought about merchandising or distribution? And I was like, I've literally never heard of these jobs. And it was because I had quite an ample background in terms of like what I'd done at university the types of roles that I was going for, and this recruiter was like, explained to me, because at the time distribution and merchandising were very much split roles. So he explained to me the difference between the two, and I was like, Oh, that sounds quite interesting, actually. And he invited me into London to do a maths test, and maths was like my worst subject at school, and I was like, Oh god. And I I went in and did this math test, and he was like, Oh, yeah, you failed it, so I wouldn't be able to put you forward for any merchandising or distribution roles because you need to be like pretty good at maths for those. And I was like, So I went went back to my parents' house with my tail between my legs a bit. And then I think I don't know why. Maybe I just went on the Topshop Top Man website, careers website, and saw that there were merchandising jobs, and I just applied. Um, and this time I swatted up on maths before I had to do my math test. So I like reminded myself about percentages and ratios, and I passed the math test this time. Because it's not actually like it's not like it's not actually math merchandising. You do you're dealing with numbers, but it's not maths. I know everyone listening will know this, but yeah. And then I think I had I had two interviews with Top Man and got the job, and I was really quite shocked and very excited.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah. So what was it like being there in like the heyday of of that time? And you know, what was the best thing you loved about it? You know, tell us a tell us a bit more about the inside on the inside, what happened?

SPEAKER_04 14:00

It was it was really good. And and I know like towards the end of my time there, I was, you know, tired and a bit burnt out and kind of it didn't it didn't feel that enjoyable then. But as I said before, a lot of that was me. But when I look back on the whole experience, the 10 years that I had there, it was so good. And I think everybody that that worked there at that time will say the same thing in that having left, the level of autonomy that we were we were afforded was insane. And I don't mean insane that it was reckless, like it was just amazing. There's people like under 30 looking after like multi, multi, multi, multi, multi-million pound apartments and kind of being left to it with support. Um, the people were just the best, so passionate, so dedicated, so good at what they they did. Everyone was funny. I used to like I used to cry with laughter at least once a day.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

Um, really sociable. There was loads of going out, loads. It was very boozy, which I at the time absolutely loved. Um and I think just the the structure and the progression from like I could literally see a direct path from MAA to senior merchandiser. Yeah. And yeah, that felt like really exciting to be like I could be, I could be there.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, you can visualize it, can't you, when you can see it. There's a frustration sometimes of like there are so many levels to get there, but it is a really clear path and a really clear ladder to work your way up.

SPEAKER_04 15:43

Yeah, it was just it was just really fun. And I think as well, like when I think now to like the learning and development, for example, we'd get like a brochure with different courses in it, and that like once or twice a year, you would like look at it and go, Oh, like think about your development errors, and you'd look at this brochure and you'd go, I'd like to do that course, I'd like to do that course, and then you would submit that to a manager and they'd be like, Yeah, that's cool. That's brilliant. And it was just like it was it was really good. I absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

That is brilliant. It's just it makes such a difference being in a company that really looks after their people, yeah. Sort of invests that energy and commitment and financially in their in their people, and you can say like that was the reason why it did so well, you know, yeah, why they're a thriving machine.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Yeah, it's really interesting now because you know, everybody l knows a lot more about Philip Green and the type of person that he was. And so if I if I tell someone that I've never met before, oh I worked I worked for a CAD of 10 years, they're like, oh dear, what was that like? I've heard it was brutal, and you're like, No, it was amazing. Like I I barely had any contact with him, I wasn't senior enough, and yeah, like he was who he was, but it didn't actually impact my or most people's day-to-day working life at all. And yeah, I I felt like at least that those 10 years when I was there, the company did really look after everyone, and we like we got bonuses and stuff like that. Like that was the time when that kind of thing was was actually happening.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

You were rewarded for it. What was it that you loved about merchandising in particular? Did you ever look at buyers and be like, oh, I want to do that? Were you always like you you carry on, put your head on the line, I'm just gonna be here.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

Yeah, I mean, I am definitely not cool enough to be a buyer.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Like well, I would tell you that, but I yeah, I wouldn't say that, Katie.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

I think like yeah, buying was never even, never even entered my mind. Um and I just really loved I the I loved the analytical aspect of merchandising. I really loved like seeing patterns in the numbers. And I remember I was asked to create a course to help our designers read their department line print because a lot of them were getting the line print on a Monday and just going, and yeah. Not interested, just seeing the numbers going not interested. And um I think management wanted them to be more commercial. I mean, the designers were amazing as well. They were they were so good, but I think there was a there was a a desire for them to to be a bit more commercial.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

And to understand the the understand what they're doing as in not what they're doing as in creating because that's great actually understanding does the customer like it or not, because it is such an emotional thing being a designer, isn't it? And creating something that you love. But actually, is it landing with the customer? Is it too early? Is it too late? Like it's not that it's a wrong design, but actually is it selling well? Because then that's how they learn what the customer wants. Because that's at the end of the day, that's what buying, merchandising, and design of all have to do. We might not love the product, but the customer needs to love it.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

Exactly. But I've I created this course for them, and I was trying, I was trying to be, I was like, guys, it's not like ignore the numbers, see the picture. Look, look through the numbers at the patterns, and they were like, Oh god, shut up.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

I love that. There's real creative numbers, just looking how many numbers are the same that you can see, and what just what trajectory do they take?

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Yeah, but but that because that's how I saw it by the end. I was like, I wasn't seeing numbers, I was seeing patterns, I was seeing trends, and I I really loved that. Um, and I loved the management side of things as well. And I, you know, I had a vast array of experiences with different managers, and I like at Top Man and since I had some really excellent managers, and it was really enjoyable kind of as I was moving up through my career, having managers that were really nurturing and really cared, and having managers that weren't so nurturing and you know had different approaches, and being able to sort of design for yourself your management style, like go, all right, I'm gonna pick a bit of that, I'm definitely not gonna do that. That was cool, and and having having those different management styles modeled to you. Yeah, I I really loved it. Um so yeah, so so much, so much to love about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Um yeah, I think we all look back fondly, don't we? And it was such a great time of of retail as well, wasn't there? Like things were selling. It was it was a there was a lot of passion, there was a lot of energy because there was that consumer backing. It was an it was a great time, and you know, we've all been through really, really challenging aspects of it as well. What what kind of I mean I you mentioned so many things there, but I feel like being being in retail sets you up for everything, right? In your life, in your life decisions, your life um challenges, everything like that. What sort of the what's the sort of the key things that you sort of you know have have learned from that career that you're now bringing into your current business?

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Oh wow. I think I mentioned that you know the recruitment consultant that I spoke to said to me, your degree is really analytical, you might really enjoy an analytical role. And I've just gone into another analytical role. So my my job now is so much about analysis, kind of helping people see themes in the way that they think, feel, and behave, helping people spot threads that run through their lives, whether it's work or home. You know, we are not different people, we are the same person. Some people are like, oh, it's a work problem. Like, no, no, no, no. But yeah, being able to spot those trends, I think. And I think that, you know, I learned so much from curating my management style. Because obviously I'm not managing people now, but there is a there are skills that come from managing people, mentoring people that are really, really useful and What I'm doing now. Yeah. And also like having difficult conversations, we were really encouraged to have a lot of really honest, at times difficult conversations. Most people in that space, when I was at Arcadia, behaved like grown-ups at work. And I think having honest conversations is one of my favorite things ever. And it's the part when I'm having a really, really honest but quite difficult conversation with a client. There's something that happens in that space in the way that it feels that is like nothing else. And I definitely think I learned how much I enjoy really honest conversations in that environment.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah. Yeah. So what would your advice be to someone? Because I I used to really struggle with that. Because I was a bit of a manager where I had some great bosses, but I also have some really bad bosses. And I think that really, but your experience between the two really shapes who the manager you want to be. And I struggled a lot with having difficult conversations with people because I wouldn't want to erode their confidence. Have you got any advice for anybody that's just like maybe starting out in a managerial position and they've got and they've not got a sort of a performing direct report and they are struggling with with that side of things and they don't want to alienate them, but they also need to make them aware that they're not doing something quite right?

SPEAKER_04 23:25

Yeah. Okay, so I mean, to a certain extent, if this was my opinion always, and perhaps it didn't help me, but I still stand by this. To a certain extent, if you have a direct report that isn't performing in the way that you would like them to perform, that's on you. Like what has happened, and we all know, we all know from experience that sometimes you can be as clear as day, you can say the same thing 3,000 times in different ways, and it doesn't land. Sometimes it's just not working. But I would say that the majority of the time, if there are development needs or gaps in knowledge, that is about the training. And so taking that personal responsibility, having a conversation with someone about okay, what what is the what's the struggle here? Because I when I was first in in my career as an MAA, I had a lot of knowledge gaps. I had some really dodgy assistant merchandisers who basically just like left me to it, didn't explain the role, didn't explain what the hell was going on. I was confused a lot of the time, and that was on them. And I had then the same attitude as a manager of like, if my assistant merchandiser or my MAA doesn't know what the hell's going on, that's on me. And so going in with that mindset, it's not about blaming yourself, it's kind of about taking personal responsibility. So going in with that mindset, I think makes those difficult conversations easier because you the energy underneath it is not coming from a place of you're doing this wrong and you need to sort this out. It's like, what are we gonna do about this? It's much more sort of problem solving.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Um and I also just think that everybody has development areas, every single person has development areas, and that's that is your job, is to is to help people be as you know the best that they can be in their role. And clear is kind. If we're being clear, if we're being straightforward, if everybody knows where they are, that's much kinder than kind of pussyfooting around feedback so that people like might be a bit like, I'm not quite sure what's just happened there. Like so, yeah, that's the that's the way that I look at those types of conversations or any kind of feedback.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah, I think that's that's definitely the right way to think about it. I really like that. It's really open and it's really um, it's really supportive. And I think so often people can be, let's face it, it can take time to train people up, right? And when you're rushing around, particularly if you're in somewhere like retail and you've got trade that you need to be doing, it can just be quicker to do it yourself.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Than to explain to somebody exactly what I need you to do it and how I want you to do it, and etc. etc. So you just do it yourself, or you just say, Can you just do this? Because you're running off to do something else. But if you just say, Can you just do this? like and not explaining what it's for and how you might want to see it, you cannot be mad when it comes back in a format that you don't expect. Yeah, just take just use your initiative. It's like, okay, but I don't know what you need that data for. Can you just run me a report? Yeah, okay. For who? Yeah, what do you want it to tell you? Because explaining so much more of that will really help them to understand. And I think we always say now, like feedback's a gift, we're forever asking for feedback. And I think we definitely learned that it is a gift because if you never tell anybody anything, they're never gonna know how to improve or whether it's good or bad or what to do about it. And you're getting sitting there feeling increasingly frustrated, but they don't know. Yeah, they don't know they're doing it wrong, or how to make it.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

I literally just had a memory pop in as you're saying that of my my very first merchandiser asked me to move a bunch of stock on the system. He was like, Can you rephase all of this stuff? It needs to go out, and I had to do it. And it was so he could see the impact of the stock movement on his WYSI, but he didn't tell me that. He just said, Can you do this? And of course, it went on my to-do list with like three billion other things. And then he got annoyed with me an hour later because I hadn't done it. He was like, I'm waiting for you to move that because I need to see the impact on my WYSI. And I was like, But you didn't say you did not say, Can you do this now because I'm doing my WYSI and I need to see the impact of what happens when you move the stock.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just about I didn't say that it's the list.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Yeah, I didn't say that because I was not good Bobby at that point. I was like, okay, sorry, and and did it. But it's just like just like actually communicating with people like a human being, yeah, and you'll usually get what you need. It's not hard.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of what we do in our worlds day to day are re-prioritizing to-do lists. And if you don't have that background information, how the hell are you possibly you know supposed to re-prioritize your to-do lists all the time? Because you don't know what's priority, you don't know, you know, what's urgent and what it needs managing.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I mean, I think it's quite scary as well, isn't it? With you know, AI coming in hot on our heels with the junior levels as well. It's like, how is that going to support someone to know the full picture of what's going on? And how is that it's going to be interesting to see it play out, like how how that affects people's day-to-day work from a consistency and an accuracy point of view, because you do need that, you do need a hell of a lot of detail in retail. I always used to say, retail is detail, you know, it's it's it's a scary world.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yeah, and I think you don't realise, especially when you're when you're in a role for that long, and when I was in, when I first, when I finished at Topman, I was on the denim department and I had started on denim, and then I had so I had been a merchandise admin, and then I'd been an AM, and then I'd gone back as a senior merchandiser. And so the knowledge that I had just sitting in my brain that I didn't, I just completely took for granted, like particularly on that department, because I've been on it for so long on and off. It was like just this vast bank of knowledge that I completely took for granted. And I think like you you only get that from being in a role from from admin level upwards, and just it's so hard to measure how beneficial being in those roles are for later on, but it's it's a hundred percent like completely important.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

I totally agree. I think it's gonna be a very expensive mistake to get rid of any of the kind of entry levels and admin. I think they're not gonna be able to experience any kind of situations and know what to do, and therefore, when you get to that situation, and when you are then in that position, you've not been able to learn from anyone around you. But I also think it's interesting when we're talking about giving instructions of exactly how you want something because that's how you talk to AI. So there's a learning in that, isn't there? It's the same thing. If you just put into an AI program, give me this, you like slop in, slop out. That's the same thing with when you're talking to a person, slop in, slop out. If you don't tell them what you want, clearly you're not gonna get the right thing back.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Super crazy, super crazy. So we love to talk about, we've had we've had a couple of merchandises on our pre previous merchandises on our podcast, and we love to talk about that buyer merchandiser relationship. What was your experience with working with buyers? Did you have that kind of husband and wife as they called it back in the day, which is probably not the quite the right frame of wording now? But you know, it was so important to have that relationship, isn't it? Is that what it was like for you?

SPEAKER_04 31:06

I think I I have had experience of working in two very contrasting environments and having two very different experiences of working with buyers. My my experience earlier in my career for those first 10 years was it I I loved all the buyers that I worked with. Yeah. I love I think in a really like huge retailer like Arcadia, there was so much respect for the merchandising function. Even though I'd say it was probably a buying-led company, the the merchandising function had to have, you know, a really big input in how things were being done because of the volume that we were buying. And it was just a really nice, reciprocal, mutually beneficial, respectful relationship, I think. And I'm doing this as I'm talking about it because we used to sit in our each department, it was like a bank of desks with three merchandisers down one side and three buyers. So I always just had my buyer over my massive monitor and their massive monitor over the other side to me. And you could you'd just be doing that all day, like popping your head around your screen and chatting about stuff. And it was just so fun. I had I had on the whole, I think, really good relationships with all the buyers that I worked with.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I no, that's bringing back so many nostalgic memories for me as well. And Kate, I'm sure you as well. It's that is the that is the traditional setup, isn't it? And it is that constant dialogue that you need between, which I think is quite hard when things moved hybrid, and you know, obviously fully remote remote during COVID, you don't have that counterpart now to just be like, Have you seen um that delivery is gonna be like you do think you can just ring the supplier up and just say, What the hell is going on? You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

I think I always respected the buyers that I work with because they had to make some really ballsy decisions at times. Like I'd be like, All I had to do was go, we want to put X amount of volume behind an all-store piece and it's got to be super commercial. What have you got for me? And they'd be like, This is the one. And I'm like, How can you? I just have to know the number. How can you be that confident? Like, you know how much money we're spending on this item, yeah. And they'd be like, Yeah, that's the one, all store. And I I used to just be like, I would be, I'd be scared having to make this for sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, I mean it it is. I mean, that it's really funny you to say that because I'd I think I used to think a little bit like that, but but you just you get so innately confident in your decision making as you get more experience as a buyer. Um I'm not saying this in a flippant way, we totally are thinking about the number and the you know significance, but you almost kind of have to detach yourself a little bit from that because otherwise you wouldn't be so confident with those decisions, and just like you like what you're saying, like you've got to do those junior levels and work your way up and get that experience because that experience is building confidence, which then leads to the decision making of what you're just talking about. So it's yeah, it's so important to have that background and and see things go wrong as well, and how you deal with them, and know that what you know, if you are going to make that decision, if it does go wrong, you've got a you've got a bit of an exit plan, or you understand something like that happened before, or you you you know what you did with it and all that kind of stuff. So there's so much psychology there, isn't there? And I think it's so incredibly linked to what you're doing, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

And I think like go going back to that sort of bank of knowledge that you have from admin level, it it just then becomes intuition and gut. And I think you do get the same as a merchandiser, but for buying, it's just it's there's so many decisions being made as a buyer every single day. And when you're so lucky to be in that kind of unconsciously competent zone, which is kind of your most advanced level of learning or level of knowledge, you can just make gut decisions and and you don't realise like the the wealth of experience and prior knowledge that that goes into those gut decisions. It starts to feel easy, yeah, even though it's not.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

No, I totally agree with you. I think, yeah, we've both both been there, haven't we, Kate?

SPEAKER_01 35:18

With yeah, and I think as being a buyer, you you have to make a decision, know why you've made it, the reasons behind it, and just stick to it. You have to be a decisive person because otherwise you tie yourselves in knots, and as you say, you make so many decisions within a day. Can't keep re-going over them and rehashing it. Was it the right decision or should we have done this? You just have to just choose one and know why you've done it and have your reasonings. And I I always remember working with my buyers when we didn't have a merchandising team, so they were not just product, but they were also the numbers and having to set a budget, but they were quite creative, you know, commercially minded but creative buyers, but having to do set budgets as well. And I remember saying to them, like, you just have to make you just have to choose a number. You just need to see why and know why you've done it and have your reasons behind it, and you just have to stick to it. Obviously, we're going to do a reforecast and another reforecast and another re-forecast. So don't worry too much about it. But ultimately, as long as you've got your reasons and you can go into trade and say, look, this is the number. The reason we hit it or didn't hit it, we exceeded or we missed it was because of these reasons. And these were my assumptions based on this knowledge, this learning, this detail I had, this information, that's the best you can do.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Yeah. Yeah. And I like you can have differences of opinion. I suppose like your management team and your directors might say, No, do this, and you kind of have to do what they say. Um, but you can never be wrong. I think when another retailer that I worked in, um, not Arcadia, the owner who was also my boss, used to say, that's wrong. And I used to have to say to him, so there's a difference between it being wrong and you not liking it. This information is factually correct. Yeah. If you don't like it, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. Um, and that wasn't ever well received, but I felt it was really important to distinguish between wrong and just not to my taste.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah. How you've interpreted something. Yeah. And we all know you can manipulate a number, but the numbers, you know, and you can kind of say, oh no, you know, you might, I don't know, whether it's something as simple as rounding it up or down, or something as simple as just showing it in a good or bad light, you know, you can go in and say, Oh my goodness, we have, you know, sold out, we've over, you know, we've over, you know, potentialized. It's like, oh, you know, we, you know, we and it's always like, oh, actually you underbought.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

You know, there's always uh, we've sold out, this is amazing. The sell through is so high, and it's like, okay, we didn't buy enough. And it's like, yeah, okay, well, you can always translate the the number to to tell a different story.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Yeah, no. I can just trade meetings now. It's great.

SPEAKER_04 38:02

Yeah, but I think what's cool is though, as well, is like you would always have, so you'd be like, right, okay, if this goes really well, because we think it might, but we're not sure, like, how can we get a short lead time supplier like ready to go so that we we don't miss out on sales too much? And so there's always like this problem solving, yeah, I guess, going on. It's so like it's so so strategic. And honestly, like the the way that people in buying roles have to think. I just I just I know it's a really unique role. I don't I don't think that people appreciate like how because buying looks, it's like, oh, I go shopping and you know I get sent to like New York to buy stuff. I don't think people appreciate how clever buyers are always. Yeah, because it looks like a glam, glam girly role, and it's actually you have to be incredibly commercially savvy and very resilient, yeah, very resilient.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, so we've talked about so many different things that go into that, then you know, decision constant decision making, be on your toes for what goes if if a plan goes wrong, problem solving, trying to think three multiple seasons at once, juggling all these different things, making sure your merchandise is happy so they give you the budget they that you want.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

And backing yourself as well, doing it all really confidently, because if you go into a room of leadership and they even sniff a slight feeling that you're unsure of what you're sort of suggesting, you are literally fed to the dogs. Do you know what I mean? Like you go in a little bit like, oh, so we were thinking, you're like, No, we are doing, and if they have another opinion, as you say, Katie, like, well, actually, we want you to do this, fine, but you've gone in, these are our reasons, this is what we want to do, this is why we want to do it. If you go and go, Oh, we were thinking maybe what we might do, but what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 39:49

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

So no wonder buyers experience burnout, and I'm sure merchandisers too do as well, because you're they're sort of you know still managing the back the same things that a buyer is, but on parallel. What's your advice to someone that's sort of like starting to get into that rhythm of like, I am so exhausted, I've got decision fatigue, I've you know, I'm starting to question my choices, I'm starting to doubt myself. Like, what's your sort of advice to someone that is starting to go down that path? Is is that something that you help people with? You know, what can you give our what top tips can you give our listeners?

SPEAKER_04 40:29

I mean, yes, I definitely work with a lot of people that are in that space. And unfortunately, I I often work with a lot of people that have beyond that and are just completely burnt out. Maybe they're off sick, um, and they really need to to basically change things. I think there's a bit of a myth that if we are burnt out, we can just kind of have a rest and then be okay. And actually, you know, the work that I do is about, as I said earlier on, fundamentally on doing the psychology, like our psychology and our and our way of operating in our physical body. And I think for people that are feeling like they're going down that road, one of the things that I would invite them to do is consider the assumptions that they're making about how they need to operate at work in order for things to be okay. So I remember when I was really, really stressed, it was towards the end of my time at Top Man when I was starting to think about leaving because I was so exhausted and blamed the job. One of and I was working really long hours, and one of my managers, my manager at the time said to me, Why don't you just leave at five? You're paid to work till five, why don't you leave at five? She had kids and she was like, I have to be out the door every day at five o'clock. And I was like, Well, I can't because I've got too much to do. And she was like, Well, maybe if there's too much to do and it's not getting done, someone will do something about it at some point. And I remember just thinking, this is absolutely radical. It was radical for her to be saying that. I know a lot of people's managers would not say things like that. But I think she she made me question, like, why am I here till like seven, eight o'clock at night? Like, I was I wasn't working productively because I was exhausted. So I was almost creating, if I stayed late at work, I created the need for me to stay late the next night and then the next night because I was tired, I was depleted, I was rushing out of the office at seven o'clock so that I could go to the gym, so then I could go home and have my dinner, have no evening, no time to myself, and then I'd come into work in a bad mood and exhausted the next day. So I was creating the cycle and I started to leave on time more, and I started to get much better at okay, what actually has to get done today? What like I I think all of these things on my to-do list have to get done today, but actually, when I'm really brutal about it, there's only five things that absolutely have to get done today. And so I had I had to kind of change my relationship with my own standards because there is always too much to do. That's how capitalism works. Like if if there's enough of you, if there's if there's enough work or the right amount of work to fill a day, they know they've got too many stuff. So there is always too much to do, and kind of adjusting my relationship with that, and be basically being able to be okay with a to-do list that was never finished.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Was a big mindset shift for me. I was kind of ending the day, even though we're done like a 10 hour day, feeling like there's still stuff on my to do list, and that means I've failed, or I have like if there were things still left to do, it's like I haven't done my job properly. And then I realized, no, that's it's completely nothing to do with me. There's always there's always too much to do.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

I think we hold ourselves to such high standards as well, don't we? So it's like There's always we always feel like there's more we can do.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Like nothing's ever finished because there's always something more you could do to it. It's a bit like even, you know, I mean, you can you could even apply that, I guess, to other areas of your life or like, you know, painting a room, but like, oh, but maybe it could do with one more layer of paint. Doesn't need it.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

But if you had some time, you might be like, oh, actually, I well, maybe I would, maybe I will do that. So I think you can kind of creep almost, can't you? Outside of those, if you're not strict with kind of your timings and actually being like, no, I'm gonna just do it for then and then I'm gonna stop. All areas of your life can just sort of start to creep in, and particularly when you're passionate about something, like we've said, like, you know, with buying the merchandising rolls, it does, it creeps.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Yeah, and I think what I re what I now realize as well is that I used work so that I didn't have to really think or feel. And I I I didn't know that I was doing that. It was only when I moved to Glasgow and I was working very kind of normal office hours. I had no mates, so I couldn't go out very much, and so I was still and quiet for the first time, probably in my adult life, and that's when I started to feel not very good. Um, and that's when I started to work with a therapist, and that was kind of the catalyst for everything that I've done since. But I were looking back, I was fundamentally uncomfortable with being with myself, being still, being quiet, feeling things, hearing my own thoughts. That was not a skill that I had. And so unconsciously, I was always coming up with ways to keep away from that, like constantly busy. Like so much of this was about me and how I was operating. And I that is the approach that I take with my clients. Like, we are so convinced it's our working environment, and for some people it is, yeah, but the majority of the time it's us and how we are unconsciously choosing to operate. And that again is not about blaming ourselves, it's about taking responsibility for our own experience because no one else is going to take responsibility for it. It has to be us.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Yeah, I think that's really powerful, Katie, because I think there's a lot of people out there that feel like it is the company. You know, sometimes it is, but I think just having a bit of a sort of review of whether it is you is so helpful because it just stops people from feeling so trapped and so, you know, unable to because a lot of people love their job, and then they're seeing this company change and evolve as lots of retailers have had to over the last five to eight years, really. Um, and certainly, certainly so much more after the pandemic. They are seeing the seeing these businesses change and they're not sure whether they're they're aligned with their values anymore, but maybe it is also about you. Like, I think that's so powerful and really help a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

Yeah. I mean, I think people have to be ready to accept that as a possibility. And we know when I'm working with people, one of the things that I'm always checking out for before I decide whether I'm going to work with them, and of course it's a it's a two-way decision, like is the chemistry right here, but is their understanding of the work that they need to do. So if I have a call with someone that's like, my boss had this and that's that, and this person this and that person that, I know they're not ready to do the work. Um, and they're not they're not right for me to be working with at this at this stage. And as I said, of course, there can be acknowledgement of that the environment might be challenging. But I I have a kind of varying experience, I guess, across all my clients. Sometimes they come out of doing the work and go, that was all me. Like it's completely different. Company's the same, boss is the same, but I feel completely different. Sometimes they realize it it's been them and they've had a challenging culture to deal with, and that's kind of almost exacerbated their stuff. And I have had clients who are like, they've done the work and they've realized they've actually been keeping themselves in a completely toxic environment for years, and now they've done the work. They're like, I'm not putting up with this anymore. Bye. So you get varying degrees, but the thing that's in common with all of those people is they've taken responsibility for their experience.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely fantastic. So, Katie, tell us a bit more about how some of our listeners can can reach you and and what sort of programs you run, and you know how you feel you could help the thriving buying community.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

Well, Instagram is the first place, so that's Katie Williams coaching. That's where I create most of my content. I'm trying a bit more on LinkedIn. I was really good on LinkedIn for ages, and then talking a lot more about stress and burnout. People I think on LinkedIn are less likely to engage with that kind of content because they don't want their colleagues to see them liking certain things. But I am going to be on LinkedIn a bit more. Instagram's the best place, and then I have so much free staff. I've got free trainings that they can access through my Instagram. And yeah, I work mainly one-to-one with people, but I also run group programmes. So actually, my group program, Glide, is relaunching on the 10th of June, and that is really helping people with what I've been talking about. Like, what do they need to change internally so that they can stay in their career? That's the kind of main aim of that program is to help people stay in the job that they've spent 20 years or longer putting their blood, sweat, and tears into and are feeling burnt out, but are thinking, well, I can't I can't leave. Like I I love what I do or I used to love what I do. And so that's the the premise for that program is to help people make some changes to how they're operating so that they can stay in their career for until they retire if they want to.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah. That's what they desire. And retirement is a long time away these days. So let's do let's spend the time doing something we love.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Yeah. I would say, in terms of freebies, quit your stress, which is the training that I base my talk at your event on, is a really good way of explaining how I work and delves a lot more into what we need to change within us in order. So the psychological side of things and the biological sort of nervous system side of stuff is a really good way of people understanding what I mean when I'm talking about this personal responsibility aspect.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

And your talk was so well received. The number of people in that room saying, I feel seen. I feel like it's just talking directly to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

It was really powerful. And I think you had quite a lot of feedback afterwards, didn't you? People coming up to you and sort of saying, Thank you so much. This has just reshaped the way I'm going to approach certain things now.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Yeah, I think there's and this is a heavy word, but I'm going to use it. Shame is is such a big thing in women who are high achievers. And there's that kind of feeling of isolation and feeling like I'm the only one that's struggling here. Or I know other people struggle, but no one struggles as much as me because you've got this secret like struggle going on underneath. And actually, I'm in the lucky position of hearing so many women's stories and realizing like everybody feels the same in these situations. And so the more we talk about it, and this is why I run groups, because it's it's so important for women to see, or you know, there's there's loads of people that are in exactly the same position as me. It's not it's not me, it's part of the experience of working in this type of environment and being a really conscientious human being.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. Well, we we love all the work you're doing, and again, we can't thank you enough for coming to one of our events. And um, obviously, we'll put all of your details in our show notes so our listeners can can reach your socials. Your your social media is incredible as well. She's got some really great stuff on her Instagram, so definitely go and check that out. Um, Katie, thanks for joining us. Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

It's really nice.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Thank you so much. It's been brilliant. Brilliant. Thanks, Katie. Speak to see. Kate, are you a drama queen? No. Drama just makes things interesting. That's true. All these thoughts and opinions are on our own and based on our own experiences working for a wide variety of retailers. These are all in the hope to entertain and educate and not to reflect negatively on any place we currently or have previously worked.