S9 E6:What Really Went Wrong With Debenhams with Retail Strategist Lucy Horden

This week we're joined by Lucy Horden, a commercial retail strategist who spent over 15 years at Debenhams working across franchise operations, brand partnerships, and business strategy. Lucy takes us inside one of the UK's most iconic department stores during its golden years and its eventual collapse — sharing the real behind-the-scenes story of what went wrong, and the lessons every retailer needs to hear.

From starting as a sales assistant who was told she was "wildly overqualified," to managing multi-million pound international franchise relationships across the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and beyond, Lucy's career is a masterclass in how retail really works.

Three Key Takeaways

1. Losing sight of your core customer is fatal

Debenhams had built decades of loyalty around a "mother-daughter" shopping experience - a brand that felt accessible yet special. When a new strategy pivoted aggressively toward a younger customer overnight, it alienated the existing base without successfully winning a new one. The lesson: evolution must be tested and gradual, not a blanket switch. Know who your customer is, and if you want to grow, reach - don't abandon them!

2. Private equity debt can quietly kill a great business

Debenhams was debt-free and booming when private equity bought it. Within three years they extracted their money and left the business with £1.2 billion in debt, locked into long leases at high rates across 20+ units. The business spent the next decade fighting an invisible structural problem that worsened every time the market shifted. Retail margins are tight - financial headroom isn't a nice-to-have, it's a survival requirement.

3. Strategy isn't a dirty word - it's just getting clear

Whether you're a 15,000-person department store or a small independent product brand, strategy comes down to three questions: What are we trying to achieve? Who is it for? And how are we going to get there? Lucy now works with small product brands who often feel overwhelmed and stretched thin - and her biggest observation is that founders lose track of their purpose the moment the business starts growing. Stepping back to look at the bigger picture isn't a luxury, it's the work.

About Lucy

Lucy Horden is a commercial retail strategist helping small, independent product brands grow with clarity and confidence. With 15 years at Debenhams across store management, head office merchandising, and international franchise partnerships, she brings a uniquely rounded perspective to the challenges facing product businesses today.

https://lucyhorden.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Hello and welcome to Buying and Beyond, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of retail buying.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

We're Kate and Lynn, and we are talking all things retail buying and beyond with real people in retail.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

So grab your drink of choice and come and have a gigger with us. This episode is sponsored by the Buyers Club, a membership created for buyers by buyers.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

If you work in retail buying, you'll know that this role is unlike any other. It's creative, commercial, fast-moving, and incredibly rewarding. But it can also be high pressure and full-on.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

The Buyers Club exists to support you through it all. Built from feedback from over 400 retail buyers, it's a dedicated community designed to help you grow, connect, and thrive in your career. Inside you'll find in-person networking events, monthly online catch-ups, career clinics, mentoring and sounding board support, curated trend edits, retail insights, members-only podcast extras, and a few exclusive perks along the way. Because while tools and technology can support your role, nothing replaces community.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

If you want to feel more connected, more confident, and more supported in your buying career, head to our homepage for more information on how to join our club.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

The future of buying isn't just smarter, it's more connected. Now let's get into today's episode. Hi everybody, so this week we're joined by Lucy Horden, who spent over 15 years at Debnomes working closely across franchise operations, brand partnerships, and business strategy. Having spent so many years inside one of the UK's most recognizable department stores, during a period of huge industry change, she brings a unique insight into how retail really operates behind the scenes, from managing brand relationships and navigating the evolution of the high street to understanding what made partnerships successful long term. Now Lucy's taken that experience into supporting businesses and founders through strategy, operations, and growth as a commercial retail strategist, helping brands use the lessons she's learnt in her years in retail. So hi Lucy, thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Yeah, absolutely. So so we always like to start from the very beginning and just find out how our guests got into retail. So how did it all start for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, I'll literally start from the beginning. Because I think for me, I was one of those people I always worked really hard at school, really hard in my A levels, always wanted to do my best. But when it came to the careers advice, that was severely lacking when I was doing my A levels and stuff. So I think where I was, unless you wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer, it was nothing was spoken of. It was literally extreme. So it's Kenny, so you go to university, do something you enjoy, unless you know exactly what you want to do. You just pick something you're good at. Went to university, did geography and had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do whatsoever. I always had like broad interests, like I liked art, I liked design, I liked science, and it was really broad like that. I came from parents that worked with doctor and a nerd, so I was just like, I don't want to do that, I don't know what I want to do. When I graduated, I knew I wanted to do something that would bring in enough money to support myself, so I was quite ambitious. And so I started going to some graduate programs and graduate interview posts and stuff. Anyway, so I did this. This is the pivotal point that led me to retail. I went and did this day, like you got to a certain point and went and then you got into this kind of like day event interview thing for graduates. I got through to the end and then I got the job, as it were, right at the end of this day. It was in sales, and I was like, oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

I really this isn't how I should feel when I've got something.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Exactly. I've got something, and I'm not feeling good about this. Yeah, I felt really not good about it. And so it was great practice, obviously. So at that stage, I was like, I can't do this, I just need to take my foot off the gas and figure out what I want to do. And essentially at that point, I was like, I like shops. And and that's when I went and got a job, just as a sales assistant at Deb NOMES. And like when I went to get that, they were literally like, You're very much overqualified for this job. I think you're just gonna get it and leave. And that, and then so they instead of just giving me the job, they had a conversation with me. Would you be interested in taking a sales assistant job? So obviously that's them saying that's what we're gonna pay you, but we'll give you some management training at the same time. Okay, and so I was like, Yeah, that sounds amazing, that sounds fun and exciting. So I did that, and then also kind of me and my friend agreed we were gonna go traveling before like settling to proper jobs. So we did I did that, and then DevNet was amazing. Like, I got to do literally the sales advisor job plus learning the ropes from more of a managerial perspective. If my manager wasn't around, I'd step up. And and they were like, We should apply for the graduate management program because obviously that's when you're actually going to get paid for it. And so when I joined the graduate management program, what they do is they literally give you an all-round view of what it takes to run a store, run a shop floor. So you have one of the more senior managers, is your manager who shows you the ropes on the floor, but they need all also showing all the different elements of running the shop floor. So it's from on the shop floor, the back of house, the stock loss management teams. You spend time with the store manager in terms of what he needs to do. I remember helping with there was like a they went through a round of redundancies. So I went to Manchester store for this. So I started in Leeds store, then went into the Manchester City Centre store, and that was like this massive, ridiculously large store, and it was very quirky in that it had kind of lots, it was called it a bit of a problem store in the ways it had lots of quirks, but that made it really interesting. So I'm I remember helping these with these redundancies, and I'm just literally graduate management trainee. So it's just all these things, and then I did some time in head office as well. So they show you the main function. So that's when I got the first view of what's merchandising, what's buying, what's distribution, and all around that. And that was like super exciting to go and do that. So for me, that was like, oh, I think by that was probably when in my mind I was like, that's what I kind of fancy doing. I know I'm meant to be a store manager, but I had that's probably when I had my eye on that.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

You learned so much from being on the ground and knowing the impact of what those teams are then doing. Sometimes yeah, I think sometimes if you go straight into doing those roles, you don't always know how it filters through. And I know a lot of retailers when you first start, and it almost doesn't matter what level you are. If you're new to the business, you go and do a week in store so that you can see the different quirks that they have and how different products might get received in, and therefore the impact of the actions that you might make in head office.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Sometimes I think a week's not enough. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

There's just so much to it, right? There's so much to it, and all the layers. And I think it's amazing like how long you can always spend in a business and still be learning. And I think that's the nature of retail, isn't it? It's so much to it. It it is really complicated. It's certainly not that easy route.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Oh, and how you're at the center of how to make a business profitable because you're at the front line. You've got so much going on at the back end, and we think the buyers are the ones that are very much in the merchandises, but you're selecting the product, then you're negotiating on the prices. But really, that's just a really small amount of it if you think of an entire business. And you're doing things I'm assuming, like looking at staffing and doing rotors, which okay, who's coming in? Jane's coming in on Monday, and Jenny's gonna come in and do 10 tool for because we need a little bit of extra on there. It seems simple in theory, but actually, that has a direct impact on the profitability of a business. Have you got enough people or are you running it too lean? If you're running it too lean, you're gonna impact on your shrink. But if you're overstaffed, then actually you're gonna be eating into money that you don't need to use. It's a real juggling act, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Hugely, hugely. And I think I definitely think you can or certain pe parts of the business kind of think, oh, that's just store, for example. And that's just not as important. And it's that I get the logic because to put it the other way around, the buyers are the ones that make the whole business would be nothing without amazing product. Yeah. Without that right product selection. So I do understand it. But the problem is it's both ways.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

It's like all these different parts are so important, and none of them work in isolation, yeah, without each other, because you can have the most amazing product, but if it is sat in a stock room, yeah, it doesn't matter, it's not gonna sell. So it is that balance of actually being well-rounded, and I think that's where it we say all roads lead to a buyer, because you are as a buyer connected to absolutely everything. But it's this whole strategy piece, I think, that you've been that you've been working on that really interests me, that you really have yourself been all roads lead to everything you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, yeah. And that's what that's what I love. I do love the fact that it's varied. And I think of my by the nature of my background, because it is it I have touched on so many different parts of a retail business, I think that brings, yeah, it just brings a bit more of a unique view of how to improve.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I think you understand the end-to-end, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

But take us back to you're in head office and you're seeing the buying and merchandising functions, and you're like, okay, I loved being on the floor, and that was really interesting, and I learned so much, but wow, what's this head office going to offer me?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

What happened then? So that was when I went and did that internship, it was a short-term thing. So then I went back. So then I'd be still in my graduate program. So I went back, but now I suppose it opens your eyes in terms of when you pick up a phone in the store, you pick up the phone about something to do with stock, like basically to keep those communication lines with head office. That made that automatically easier because who you're talking to, who's on the other end of the phone, broadly speaking. And so I did, I completed the graduate management programme, went and worked in the management team. So moved from Manchester to London to Bromley and worked in that store, really high density, really high volume store. And enjoyed.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

That was a that was a yeah, that's like really child nostalgic.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah, and had quite a big team to manage, and they're amazing. It's hard work, right? It's hard work, but as I say, I also had in my mind, I know what I want to do moving forward. So once I'd done a year or so there, I was like, I'm gonna start applying to head office, and that's when I moved into head office as a assistant merchandiser in store merchandising, and it felt like a really great link because it was linking the store side to head office, and and that was because they had a new investment and project on how ranging and the essentially the buy and the layout varies by area. So they had some selected special stores that had more investment for our team to go in and check the space layout, check how much stock of what they had, basically solve problems. So it was back when you'd still go into store and there might be a huge amount of overstocks in an area, and people just didn't really know. And it was another area that was selling really well, was really under optimized. So we'd go back, and this is when we would speak to the buyers and the merchandisers to be like, this is what the local markets, we need to cater to this store, it's one of our focus stores, and we're looking to boost the performance there. And so it'd be translating that kind of store performance to the actual stock that store got. So that was my foot in to the head office side, and it's also back then. So when I joined Debonem's, it's also when physical retail was booming. So it's a really fun time to be like working in that side of the business because it was buzzing, you know, and Debonem's at the time was absolutely one of the leaders there. Yeah, that that was my introduction into head office.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, I love I loved Debonham's as well. Very iconic store in Guildford, just on the riverside. Loved it going in, and you'd have all the concessions there as well. So it was kind of like that sort of you go in and you could get anything under one roof. Um, but they had a really lovely way of being quite experiential in terms of their layout or some of the kind of maybe pop-ups that they would do. I remember having some of my favourite. Oh my god, I'm gonna forgot forget what it's called. Oh my goodness, what was one of the concessions called? Faith. That was the shoe brand I was thinking of. Oh yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

I loved Faith shoes.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

I loved Faith shoes. I remember you had Faith, then you had Warehouse, you had Topship in the middle, we had Jade Norman to the side. Yeah, it was brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Oasis, I think, were in there for a bit too. I really liked that they catered for us, but then they also catered for our mums, so it was a very mother-daughter experience. Then you could go have a little coffee in the coffee shop. The whole, yeah, it was very Bridget Jones, really. Yeah, yeah. I would also always go there for my perfume.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah, I would go there over over boots, I would go there for my perfume.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

And the John Richards Jewelry. Oh, yes. Yeah, the John. We always used to look at that when I used to buy jewellery MS. Let's go look at the John Richards jewellery in Debnams. And didn't you have like a Matthew Williamson brand?

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah, so that was part of the designs at Debs. Yes, design at Debs. So that was a big success story of the 90s into the 2000s, but yeah, yeah. So that was elevating the brand.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, yeah, there was so much going on there. I can see why it was really exciting to be in. But then what happened over your time there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

So I think it was really interesting. So I joined way back when in 2004, and that was just after the brand had been bought by private equity. And essentially, before that, the business was booming, and the business was still booming at that stage, really strong. But essentially, private equity approach and debt-free, most importantly, right? Debt-free at that stage. Private equity bought it and wanted to get obviously their money out as soon as possible. And within a space of three years, they sold it and left the business in 1.2 billion worth of debt. Oh, so sad. So sad. And but I think 20-something units that were like all rent-free were now on leases of really locked in for 20, 30 years at really high rates and stuff. So I think at that stage the business was doing so well that there wasn't an immediate, obviously, it wasn't an immediate problem, right? But it's awful to hear that. It's crazy to live.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

It's so annoying to I'm sitting here feeling really frustrated, Lisi, because it's not just Debanums that go through this, is it? It's been so exact same formula, which is equated to the fall of the high street. It's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So it is, it's so frustrating. So I think when I was with them, the kind of journey that I saw was the fact that the business was booming, and then that that that's the background that I suppose the average consumer wouldn't be thinking about, right? In terms of that being there. And so they sold, they floated the business back on the stock market in 2006. And then obviously in 2008, we had the global financial crisis, and everything changed. Consumer confidence went down and it just shifted markets, didn't it? And at that stage were also moving more to online. So I think my understanding is DevNames was an early adopter of e-commerce, but because of this change, like in terms of their debt situation, they didn't have the liquid cash to be able to invest enough in e-commerce. So they were very much more that that was key strand going forward, but they were really store focused. But then obviously, with the consumer confidence going down and the that in 2008, sales were obviously going down. So that's like the second tipping point. And then when I was within the business, performance essentially, you if you had a knock, if there was a something bad that happened, it was all the worse because it was that background on having that debt. That ended, I see in my mind there's like a few key points that led to the demise of the brand. So obviously, it's like having that background of debt when we go from a really robust market into a challenging market. So there's a key shift. And then I remember, and I remember some of these dates because they hinge around key points in my life outside of Debon's. So in 2013, I went traveling again. I took a career break and went traveling like around the world. Took, I think, I don't know, nine months off, let's say. And when I came back into the business, I was like, yeah, so at that stage, it's when Michael Sharp, who was the CEO at the time, was there was a huge focus on international expansion. And at that stage, I was working in the international division. So that's great. I loved that role. And but the focus was to use Oxford Street store as a flagship store because all international franchise partners that come over would always go to the store, of course. And that's the one they were guaranteed to go to. We take them to other stores as well, but that's the one they've guaranteed to go to. So it's let's invest more in Oxford Street, makes sense because it's going to be a flagship. The challenge was he invested 40 million in that refit. And from seeing it from the inside out, the decisions that were being made, like this is when, like I say, I come back from traveling, go into the store excited to see it after all this work's happened. Well, I've been out of the business, excited to see it. And I'm like, guys, what's happened? Yeah. Because it's looking gorgeous. Obviously, it's just been done, so it's at that point when it's still looking gorgeous. But I was like, have all the fixtures gone. Wow. Because it was really at one point really brought back, really paired back to have this like really exclusive vibe. Minimalist. Minimalist. And and yeah, it looked clean, it looked good, but I was like, the density in this store is so high, they're not going to be able to turn the right stock. So, what happened over time? More fixtures got pushed out because they couldn't manage it. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't necessarily fit for purpose. Yeah. Huge amount of money's put in, a huge amount of like external consultants and all sorts, and it's just like missing the spot. We actually need to sell stock.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

Yes. And also, is it stepping too far away from what Debonham's was? Maybe. Creating this new environment. Who what customer are they trying to bring in? What who are they? Are they now alienating the customer that they've spent years building up and nurturing through the generations as we just talked about?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Exactly. And that's such an interesting point that you raised because my next point in the kind of failure of Deban's is around the customer. So in, I think, oh God, I remember it around my child. So my first baby, and when I went on Mat Leave for him. So I went on Mat Leave in 2017. When I came back into business after him, so we had a new CEO at that point that was brought in from Amazon to obviously focus more on the econ side. So I again I have the same thing that happened when I come back from travelling. I come back and I'm like, oh, this is feeling a bit weird, guys. Yeah, and I felt like what's happened. But I felt it was just me. And I was like, oh god, am I the weird one? Because I've just had a baby and has like, what's what's happening? You have all these kinds of things, and so I come back in, and what threw me off was as part of obviously Sergio, the new CEO coming in, and I get it, right? It was to refocus. There was a new strategy essentially, a new target customer was being brought in. So we gone from, as you say, you literally perfectly described our core customer. It was very much like kind of mother and daughter, and that worked really well. It was like middle of the road brand. You'd feel like you were getting something luxury by getting a designer at Devonham's, and you could go to the beauty hall and get something, and it still felt like a really nice environment. But in this new pivot for the strategy, it was splitting out that target customer into I think there are about five separate avatars. And you know, I get having different target customers. That makes sense. That's not my problem. My problem was I come back into the business and I have this training, right? Lisa, you must go to the new training on the new strategy and the new customer. Okay. So I go and I'm like sat there feeling really uncomfortable. And as though I'm in a room of robots almost, you know, when he feels slightly what's going on. Because what they're saying, I'm like, that is not our customer. We're changing this business completely.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

We get having to pivot, having to move on, you've got to be like flexible, you've got to be be what is it, fleet of foot. Yeah. But actually completely changing who you are.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah. And that's the thing. Because we've we've already at this point, obviously, the business is hundreds of years old, right? You've got your customer base. So you don't want to alienate them. You can reach to expand, you can reach to test new things, try new things. But to for me, I wasn't seeing I shopped at DevNames and I was. Wasn't seeing myself in any of those avatars. Alienated me as an employee looking at them. And they were what happened was the pivotal change was they were going for a younger customer. They were focusing far more on a younger customer. And that was the big thing for Debonim's at that time. But again, I just never made sense to me because I'm like the 50-ish customer, which was the bread and butter, has money, comes regularly to spend. The whole thing just blew my mind to be honest. But so for me, that was the second thing. They lost sight of their core customer. And therefore, the buying teams were being directed down a different path.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And yeah, I think that just goes back to the fact that essentially everything in this business, whatever role we play, it's got to all evolve around the customer, right? It's the customer's the number one thing. And if you are wanting a shift in strategy, it's like, how do we do that in a kind of like controlled way, the tested way? And it's not that everything that was brought up, I think, was wrong by any means, but I think it's that it was the blanket approach. It was just a sudden almost switch. It felt that way. Yeah. And without a customer, you're nothing. No. So that was yeah, the second big thing for me that source. Yeah, it's so much changed for a short space of time as well, if you think about it. Yeah. Massive. And then obviously the final blow was COVID. Yeah. 2020. Yeah. That happened. COVID, so it was already the business was definitely very wobbly. I remember going on maternity leave and being like, oh, I'm not sure what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Yeah, how were those years 2017 to 2020? Like when you're you've come back in and you're having to focus on this whole new customer. What was your role at that time? And how did that affect exactly your kind of like your day-to-day and I guess your kind of your objectives? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

So I think for me, I was slightly, slightly isolated from it in a good way, because at that stage, I wasn't in the kind of core own bought team at that point. I'd moved over to concessions. So I was helping the concession side of the business and the concession relationships, growing the concession business, bringing in new concessions to help fill dead space. So I suppose what I did see was more space coming available to concessions. And we would continue our focus. And at that stage, we'd work with brands to cater their range to our Debanum's customer. And to be honest, the strategic changes that happened didn't really majorly impact that work because we were working with those external teams to get their range in a great place for how we saw the opportunity in store and online, and in store and online.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Did you bring on any new brands based on this whole new customer? Were there any kind of nuance that you were like, oh, we have to have that particular brand?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

We did go a bit younger, yeah. So, and actually, there were some definite success stories. So we've built a relationship with bestseller, and they've got Jack and Jones that did really well. So I worked with Jack and Jones to roll out their stores in Debonem's. That was hugely successful, and that was overarching. A younger customer, but to be honest, an old customer would also shop there. So that was brought in for a more younger customer. And at the end of the day, from a concession business, this is what the, I suppose, an external person would see when they looked at Debonham's. They'd look at the concessions that were hugely successful, massive part of the business. And they'd be like, look, we've got Miss Selfridge there, we've got all these young brands there that do really well. Let's do that in own board. And that's essentially what they were trying to do to expand that. The problem is it just didn't, it didn't work because the the nature of the customers was a lot of not solely, but a lot of those young concessions, so the young fashion essentially. But they did, they totally brought in the younger customer, but it was Lindsay, as you described, it was the mother-daughter situation often times. And I it's really difficult. And I think it just wasn't, it was too much too fast, too soon, evolving some of those core own-bought departments, brands, that served that kind of 50-ish customer, trying to translate that to be younger, trying to move that when actually the people who are shopping that actively shopping it, yeah, they're not changing. Obviously, then the strategy is for marketing to bring bring in that new customer. But again, it's a massive shift.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah. And like you say, if you've already got that young customer there, but they're shopping your concessions, what's going to change them from buying a concession to suddenly buying Debonham's own brand? That is a huge push because if I think about if I put myself in those shoes and thinking about, okay, when I was younger and I go into Debonham's, I would solely be going in for beauty counters, perfume counters, and then to go and visit my brands. I wouldn't go on any other floor and would walk straight past the own brand, Debonham's, that was positioned just in front of the young fashion brands. Yeah. And I would just walk straight past it. It might be a good value and it might look fairly similar, but it didn't have the name. And at that age, I was very, very name conscious and like where I wanted to shop. And Debonham's didn't have that factor. But as you say, going with my mum, because I want to pop in and if we're having a girl's day or we're shopping together, and mum will be like, oh, oh, this is good value. Oh, I'm going to pick this up because she's not as brand sensitive as I was.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Absolutely. 100%. And I think some of the ways, some of the tactics, some of it would be around obviously the range, the buy, catering that to a younger market for some of those own-bought brands. Some of it's about the positioning in store. So let's position, let's move concessions. There was definitely a big move to move concessions out of key spaces into peripheral, lower footfall areas. And obviously, that's from a Debanham's business perspective. It feels like a no-brainer because obviously Debonham's product is high profit margin. And from a concession point of view, they don't want to be moved back. So it's about that there comes in the relationship with the concession to manage that and to get them the best deal you can, basically. And I think it had varying success, it depended on.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

I seem to struggle quite a lot with businesses that that kind of turn their nose up to concessions because you you need a balance of everything. You need a balance of high margin owned brand and a balance of consistent concession profit, right? To help to feed both of those scenarios. And if you don't have that balance, then one doesn't work well without the other. Do you know what I mean? And I think sometimes it is quite astonishing the higher up you got you get in your career, and you sit in these meetings and you hear the decisions being made, and you start questioning them, and you start thinking, why are we making these decisions? I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

It's just many times they start to think more just see the numbers rather than think about the customer. They get further and further away from customer and who are we doing this for, and more and more about, oh, but if we made it all own brand, think how much money we'd make. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

I think that's it. Literally, because when you do look at the numbers, you're like, why wouldn't we just turn it all to own board? Because if you look at the profit we're making, like and from a maths point of view, if you're literally just looking at paper, yeah that would make sense. But as we've said, it's so complex, it's multi-layered in all these things. And like, why do people come? Like you said, it is the names, right? The choice. It's having that curated mix of brands under one roof, super convenient, being able to go somewhere for a coffee as well, having that experience, maybe getting your nails done, because that's another thing we saw more of, obviously, and continues to be massive, right? That is that experience. What else can you do all in one space to really use that space, right? To better improve the customer experience and to at the end of the day make more money as a business. But yeah, 100%. So it's out how do all these pieces fit together? And I think that's where within big businesses, I suppose any business of any size, is that constant slight friction in that you've got people arguing the side of commerciality and actually that rounded view versus someone else maybe more of a linear view and kind of slightly more black and white, which again we'll all be really used to, right? Because it's part of it, part of the job is having those debates. And and essentially, I suppose you're almost by having that debate, you're making sure you're moving forward in the best way, whoever's got the loudest or most important voice that wins.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Often do you know what I'm super interested to hear a bit more about your role in the international team? Tell us a bit more about that, what the day-to-day was, and what you enjoyed about it.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah. So when I joined the international team in Dubram's, it was a really exciting time because there was a lot of growth. Again, a lot of the businesses were doing really well. It was highly profitable, it was it was growing, gradually growing into a more and more important growth and profit stream for Debunham's as a whole. But I suppose what I really loved about it from the start was the fact that it felt like its own little business. And it wasn't. So it felt like there was less red tape. It was a bit more, it was a bit more like dealing with small businesses in a way. Because so the franchise partners would come and want to start a Debenham's business, and they just saw the opportunity in their market to start a department store essentially, because often the markets might only really have some small stores at that stage, and then you bring in a department store, and it's really exciting for the people in the market. So, in terms of my role, I've had two main roles in there, but it was really wide-ranging. So it would be managing that relationship with the franchise partner and essentially guiding them to grow and develop and build their business in the most profitable way for them and also for Debonums. And that would literally touch on if it was an existing business, because we'd also work with them to open new stores, but if it was an existing business, it would be like having those weekly trade calls, looking at performance, planning forward and planning together how we're going to their marketing calendar say. It would be working with them on their open to buy and what their product range is. So they would have, we would help them build out a guide of what they do and don't want in their market. So they we'd agree what brands they'd have, and then they'd have a fashion market questionnaire where they'd say the specific works of their business, of their country. And then we'd work that definitely needed work. So we work with them to improve that because obviously that was the key thing that our international merch teams would use to build their range for each franchise partner. And so our teams would meet with the buying teams to be like to essentially select what to have an overview of what that range was for each of the brands and select the range for each of our franchise partners. So there was all that piece, and it's like catering. It was also from our perspective as business managers, elevating where there was an opportunity beyond our range.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

So, for example, I helped with the Middle East, our Shire brand, and they had they had some more quirks in terms of their ranging. And actually, a lot of say there were other brands as well, but they would want a lot more long dresses. And at the time it wasn't on it wasn't fashionable to have long dresses here. That would be like a conversation with the buying team on that's a real opportunity, and certain ranges could be bought specifically for international, like say that. Another one would be like, and that's actually the long dresses associated with this, but Eid is a celebration in the Middle East, and having specific ranges brought for the kids, so kids' dresses. Again, that was at a point where the kids' occasion wear wasn't so big here. So that was a real opportunity. So you're very much kind of catering, you're joining the gap between the UK market and range to the international. So there's that side, and then it's literally meeting with the franchise partners, doing store walks, talking about the layout and how to improve from a customer journey perspective, from a profit and kind of size of the rangers perspective, looking at their back of house in terms of their the way they manage their stock movement, and all the way up to the senior, obviously, the senior people within the franchises and building out the strategy of what the focus was at the moment and what we're all working together to achieve. So it was hugely varied, which is what I loved really. And which were your biggest markets? So I worked on biggest markets. See, biggest is never the same as what busiest is it? No.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

What was your biggest and what was your busiest? Sometimes your smallest can be your busiest garden.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I know, right? Yeah, exactly. So when I I wasn't I was a business manager at this time, but our biggest, I was an assistant at this time, but our biggest one that I worked on was the Aushire's that was the Middle East. It was huge, it was definitely the biggest cash cow. And then later on, Magazine was bought, but that was a slightly separate situation. And then in terms of other ones that I worked on, that so lots of stores, but not a huge amount of cash in Romania. There's one that I did was really interesting. Malta was small, but the cash in those stores, a couple of stores were really big. India was a massive focus as well. That was one of my stores. So yeah, really, it was probably our shire being the biggest. And then a lot we had lots where maybe the cash wasn't as big, so it was more about volume from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

It's amazing, isn't it? Seeing all the different cultural kind of differences and like all the kind of different shopping habits that there are across the different regions.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

100%. And so part another part of a job would be literally to go and do a comp shop while we were there. So it was that literally that broad. And and like you say, it's Cyprus. We had at its max in Cyprus, we had 10 stores going in each of those little mini markets and being like, How are we in the market? Um, and we moved to Russia and managed to have Russia relationship for a while. That was really interesting because again, hugely different market to here. Yeah, it's it's really interesting. Oh, and Iran was a really interesting one. So that was one of my markets as well. Because obviously, that's really different. Didn't enjoy wearing a headscarf. Um but they're a lovely book, obviously, just I found it so interesting. That side of it, that kind of cultural side, meeting people that was like fundamentally the same, but so different at the same time. Um, so that linked my love of travel with my work as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

With the retail side, yeah. And did buyers accompany you at any point on any of these trips, or was it very much you were out there on the ground and you were then feeding back, or did they come out to the markets as well to see it for themselves? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

So essentially it started off probably being just international, and then we did get an international buyer that would buy some kind of special buys, she would sometimes come. But the main people that went were very much kind of the business managers, those people that owned the relationship, and then that there was that translation piece with the buying teams. And I think as the business evolved, so it was started off probably when I joined International, it was probably slightly siloed, it was like a forgotten, but not forgotten because it had huge cash, right? But it was to one side of the business, and then gradually it moved into be more of a core stream of the business, and at that stage, I think there was more UK people going off to international, which I think came with its pros and its cons because I think it's great, obviously, from a visibility point of view, when you see it with your own eyes, you understand and you can act on that much better. And I think the cons was the fact that sometimes you'd skip levels, so people would act on things, but it wasn't necessarily always filtered through.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

I can understand that. We I think we sim mirrored that a little at accessorize, where it started off being quite a small sort of side of the business, the international, and then it became but as in money, it was still big, but it was just we were very UK focused, and then I think the international side grew and grew that we needed to really start doing a lot of special buys, the grading got expanded. Um, and I think that was fine when there were certain areas that could have some products, couldn't have other products. I bought seasonal at one point, and there were certain items that couldn't go to certain countries, we'd have a whole list of exclusions that we'd have to make sure we put on the system when we were raising products. Yeah, and then you started to have it where the franchise owners, because there was a lot more collaboration, there was much more of them coming over, much more interaction, a lot more feedback. And I guess my question's gonna be to you is like, how do you manage that feedback? Because we definitely, when I was working on Beach, we had a request from quite a few of the sort of southern Europe that our swimwear wasn't skimpy enough. So I did an entire range and I bought the entire thing. It was really exciting. It was like one of my big projects going over there and actually really seeing how Europe was split. So you had sort of Germany and north of Italy that was very much buying like the UK. So you'd have babies, stripes, it was quite covered, almost a little conservative, and then you would have Italy, south southern Italy, Spain, and that and Greece, and they would be much more wanted Brazilian style, they wanted G-strings, they wanted hot pinks, they wanted bright yellows, they wanted different fabrics. And our swimwear now is much more Southern Europe, I'd say, when you look a lot look around the market now. We have all gone very southern Europe. But it was very interesting and getting the feedback. But it was almost like the more, the more interaction that we had with the franchise partners, the more demanding they became, the more, oh no, we don't, we're not gonna sell this. We need an entire range of X, Y, and Z, and actually starting to really influence the buys and what they had in their stores. And it got to be a bit like, okay, but is this just what you like? And I think as you said before about having loudest voice, that applied. I remember we had a very loud, lovely, but very loud owner of our franchises in Greece, and she was quite demanding about what she did want and didn't want in her stores. But there's only so much, particularly at that point, that you could do with flexing ranges and developing new ranges, and especially when it was only going to be a couple of hundred pieces. Yeah, yes, exactly. Exactly. How do you manage that when you're right in the middle of you're the one with the business relationship? We as buyers, because we didn't really have, I wouldn't say we had that role, so it was us buyers dealing with it and being like, oh, next season, yeah. Um we'll think about it. We'll knit down, we'll research that. But you had a relationship with these franchise owners.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

So how did you manage that? Yeah, yeah. I think it was an interesting one. I think having that direct relationship is easier from the perspective of you you grow personal relationships with those people and you get to know them in terms of what works, what doesn't work for their personality, and like almost so because you get some people that just push harder than others, but that doesn't mean those people should just get what they want and the others shouldn't. So there's balancing off the needs to the commercial gain for all at the end of the day, isn't it? And you know, clearly there was some there were frequently people would ask for stuff, but it was just not worth anyone's time in terms of volume. And that's essentially what it came down to. It was like, what is the real cash possibility of this thing we're talking about? And if a brand would be like, Oh, we really need blah, blah, blah, you'd be like, okay, let's open this up. Because there's some things that literally every year they'd have on, like you say, the fashion market questionnaire, every year, this is what we need. Why aren't you giving it to us? Yes. And so it'd be like, okay, this keeps coming up. Is it is this something that other markets are interested in? Is it something that the UK might be interested in? Do you know? And it's opening up that conversation to be like, is this actually a commercial direction we should go in? Or is it just something small and not really worth anyone's time?

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Yeah, no, do you know what I really think it's making me feel like the relationship they used to have with a lot of regional managers as well with us is right. And that that's why I was always such a great believer in everybody coming to the strategy. So setting strategy for the season, not the sign-off, because too many people in the sign-off is an absolute nightmare. But having everybody at the strategy session, I feel really helped and stopped a lot of those ad hoc. We need this, we need that, because they could understand the formation of the strategy for that category. And if you did have international partners that wanted other things, they could then see how important that was to that overall message and strategy of the brand, right? So they would say they would then make the right noises and the right input.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah, yeah. But like you say, so a lot of it is putting some guardrails really around the right way of communicating things, the right timeline, the right time to be bringing it up, as opposed to it just being filtered through on a constant basis, because that's not sustainable for anyone. And I've described the role that I had, and clearly it was very wide-ranging. There was a lot to be doing, so you couldn't spend a huge amount of time with lots of random ad hoc things coming through at all times. So, yeah, 100% with you. It's like having these moments to bring these things up, and there definitely became, I think there was a long time where a lot of suggestions that couldn't take because we did have that international buyer, but that was only feasible if there were enough units within international only to make that a profitable buy. So there was a movement away from that into let's bring this case forward as a business case forward, and having definitely over time that became more structured and it became more like that actually, this could be great to do in top. Stores in the UK as well. And like building, I suppose, and that's where really it's about elevating the importance of something, getting your senior execs of involvement and influence to make that happen, as opposed to some lower down the chain. It's definitely my role was very much about how are we going to make this happen? Who do we need to get involved? Who do we need onside? Because we always had, like I mentioned before, our Romania partner. And they went through a stage where their business that we it was seen as a market with huge potential. But the partner we had had challenges. There was a constant cash flow challenge going on. They were absolutely lovely and delightful to work with. But there's this cash flow problem that continued to happen. So at this stage, they weren't a really profitable partner for us, but we saw long-term kind of light coming up at the end of the tunnel. And so it wasn't that there was an immediate gain there, but we very much got everyone like who's going to manage this relationship. And that was my relationship to manage with that brand. And it was only possible to get the movement forward we needed by having the execs on side, by getting the teams on side. So, you know, I do presentations on the market, what they're doing. Basically, I suppose it's getting it's rallying up the troops to why you should support this partner. And then it's not just about the numbers, is it? It's that why they're wonderful people to work with, and why it's it is more emotive as well, isn't the cash side. But obviously, having that senior exec push, this is a business focus right now. Automatically, you've got that heavy weight focus for the business. So I think it's that, you know, and that I suppose it really brings back again to strategy, business strategy. What is the focus at any one time? And then how we're gonna and what do we want to achieve and how we're gonna make that happen, and just being really clear with everyone involved.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Yeah, fantastic. Brilliant. I could talk to you all day long about this. There's so many interesting things, and just hearing what Kate was saying about the international team's accessories brings back so many memories. And at MS, they had a huge international team as well. I was very much part of that, thinking about all the big open days we used to do, and you have to go and stand on a stage and present your range. I remember that being one of the first times I ever presented to more than 100 people in a room, and I was absolutely terrified. But they were all so lovely though. I always found the international partners were just so engaging and they really wanted to chat to you afterwards. And yeah, I hope we haven't lost that throughout some of the bigger businesses in the UK at the moment because I think back to your point, Kate, when you were saying how now swimwear is a little bit more European, there's probably not as much of a need to do specific as we are as consumers evolving into having a bit more of an open-minded viewpoint on trends and things like that. So it's interesting, isn't it, to see how that with that kind of job function, functionality is changing. And a lot of businesses came away from franchises, didn't they? And are we going back there? What's your sort of feeling on that? How do you think it is now these days?

SPEAKER_01 47:04

I suppose I feel slightly detached now, but from what I think that you're right in that there has been a movement away from a bit from franchises, but more than that, it's like unifying as opposed to working towards the quirk. So there aren't necessarily specific international teams. It's very much let's do it all through the one route. And I think there's there's pros and cons to different ways of doing it, but I do think the fundamental thing that that I saw definitely from working in that role is just that relationship, right? Having the time to invest in that relationship, understand the people you're dealing with to get the best out of them. So at the end of the day, when I was working with them, the best often way, not all the time, but often it's like, how can I approach this and get my franchise partner to say what I want them to say so they think it's their idea? Like how to influence people. Often that was like, whereas of when these things are being managed just through UK teams, it's going to be loads of like efficiencies, but there won't be that kind of level of partnership going on.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

I think it's interesting the rise of AI, which on the one hand will make things like all the different sort of nuances between the different kind of cultures and the things that people want and don't want easier to manage, like thinking about the number of store grades and things like that. We can't do that just for you because that means setting up yet another store grade and we already have 60 odd. But actually, AI improving those efficiencies will allow you to do that. But on the other side, as we just mentioned, Lindsay, the fact that technology has advanced so much means that there are less cultural differences from region to region because we're all starting to just buy the same thing, and those trends are now global. It's interesting, isn't it? Seeing the rise of AI and the rise of technology and how that is directly impacting retail.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Yeah, it's really interesting. I think it's so interesting, really exciting, and quite scary all at the same time. And yeah, also terrifying. All at the same time, because it's like there's so much opportunity, isn't there? What's crazy is how far reaching AI, isn't it? And none of us really know, unless you're specialists in the area, what where it's going to go to. Because it I think what it's great is hopefully bringing the people to focus more on people-to-people relationships in a more customized way, whether that's in store or head office, to for the whole customer experience to be to have that custom experience. I think I saw a Sparks card, so MS, like not doing their blanket offers. It's yeah, it's all customized, and yeah, so having that customization from a store perspective, getting more AI support so they can spend less time on admin and more time on the shop floor, which is always going to be a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yes, because the fact that everything is becoming so automated, so robotic. We talked about a news story that I'm in love with at the moment, which is not a really new one, but it's something that's trending at the moment about how IKEA redeployed all of their customer service agents back into retraining them and giving them all interior design consultants' roles. And it's actually brought so much more revenue back into the business. So it's improved that it works. Yeah. There's a lot of businesses out there at the moment that are really culling, and we we see it from both sides of the sides of the rationale because you know things are really incredibly tough at the moment. There's got to be some cost cutting, but there's also got to be some foresight planning as well, hasn't there? Because you what you cut now, you're only then going to have to try and get back later. It is it we are going to end up needing that face-to-face so much more than we ever have. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

So I think it's from it's like, how do we keep that human? I think that's just exactly I to completely agree. Because it's like there's so much efficiencies that can be made, which is really great, really exciting, but we need that human connection. And that's just gonna be the brands that can run with that even more are gonna be the ones that succeed. And then I have to say there's part of me beyond that, which I'm sure we can all resonate resonate with, is just from a market perspective, what does it mean for the job market? Like and people, that's just a bit mind-blowing to me right now. But I think generally for efficiencies and the same with small business, being able to use AI for some of the things they're just not don't have the people, don't have the people to be able to do. So it's slightly different from looking at it from a small business lens because generally they've not got those PP, it's not necessarily so much about cutting. But I think definitely huge opportunity to improve the customer experience and to hopefully at the end of the day, kind of like have less stock wastage, have less returns to businesses, have less back and forth between the supplier and brands when they're like making products because they'll be able to use. I think I read about which brand was it? Is it ASOS? It's doing 3D modeling for fits and stuff. And I don't know how that's going to work, but it's all it's all these amazing, isn't it? Yeah, there's so much opportunity. Yeah, and it's just watching it unfold. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

So do tell us a bit more about what you're doing now and how you got started with that.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Yeah, so now I'm supporting small independent product brands, and I started because it's this kind of has there's three main things that I think all happened to make me do this or to facilitate this because I'm I'm not generally I'm very risk averse. So working for myself, therefore, is slightly counter to that. But I mean it's it one big relocation, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. But I think from a corporate perspective, I was just I became disillusioned from the management and the strategy perspective. So that kind of took my partly took my ambition away and my purpose within that realm. With talking about Debanham specifically, I think I touched on they went into administration when I was on maternity leave, so that kind of sealed the deal, as it were, for me, in terms of do I go back and find look for look actively look for a job? And I did, we talked about Boohoo, so that did happen, but I wasn't looking for it. And I took the decision of no, this is my opportunity because I'd already been thinking previously that I wanted to do work with small businesses.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

And and why I wanted to do that was essentially I wanted to be able to, I suppose it's helping the underdog. I think that's probably what it comes down to. It's helping the those brands that that need that help. I feel like I can get more, have more impact. And I'm really passionate also about helping women in business because I I believe generally that bringing more cash into women's pockets, they're going to invest it in better supply chains in their community and their family. So it just feels a better fit for me as a person. Um and I think that feeling just became stronger over time. And then the final fact was the fact that obviously I had my first, I suppose I had both children initially when I was in Debanham's. But having had that, essentially having my children, just when I think, oh, you know what? I I'd already took the decision to move away from international because of wanting to start a family and not wanting to travel all the time. But I was like, it's not, it's not enough. And I wanted to be able to both have feel like I was having more impact. I was still feeling ambitious, and I felt like my route to feel like I was having a great impact as well as support my family, have flexibility and control over my time. I needed to do that myself. And so that was moving to help small independent product brands.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

Fantastic. Brilliant. And how's it been going? How have we found things? Is it a completely different workday? Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

So it's it is completely different. So I think the hardest thing for me is not having a team because I always really enjoyed working with teams, but I do, I suppose I still work with my brands, so there's that. And so the hardest thing is being your own boss. Sometimes I think I'm not very nice. I'm not very nice boss. I think I could be a nice boss, but for myself, I don't always think I'm the best. Um, but no, I really, I really enjoy it, and I think what I really enjoy the most is the fact that I can make a difference to someone's life and help them in areas that they might not other be otherwise be able to move forward with. Because I think it's small independent brands. It's someone starts a product brand, like a creative brand, because they're passionate about their product and they've got like they've got purpose, right? They're passionate about moving that forward, or they've got a passionate cause that they're working towards. And then as your business grows, you suddenly it's less about that, it's less about the product. The product's still key, obviously, but there's so much else to it to make that brand to be successful. So you grow to a certain point and then suddenly realize you're not spending your time buying beautiful products or creating beautiful products, you're spending it doing all the other things and being stretched too thin, maybe being worried about cash flow, not knowing how to maximize sales in the best way. So that brings in kind of the commercial aspect, which I support with. And I think I just think it's really tricky because I think we've already talked about how retail as an industry is so complex. And I don't think anyone, probably ourselves included, when entering into the retail space, understand how complicated it is. And it's the same for small product brands. And there's some things that kind of can be misunderstood. How many people do you need to get to your website to actually make the money you want to make? What margins do you need to work to actually have enough to pay all your bills and to actually grow to the point you want to where you're going to be employing support or where you're going to have to pay to get traffic to your website and make sure you've still got profit in that in each sale at the end of the day? How do you make the most of each sale? How do you make customers to spend more each time they come? It's all that kind of stuff, those levers to grow that I think, yeah, are really valuable.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

So much more strategy involved around it, isn't there? And I guess people end up once it they start seeing it moving and they get excited because the brand started to grow and started to move, but end up spending more time with their head in the spreadsheet than actually spending the time doing what they love, which is building their product. So, what problems do you find that small product businesses struggle with the most?

SPEAKER_01 57:36

I think the when it I suppose looking at it from the lens of when the brands have come to me, they are essentially amazing at what they do. They've probably bought built a bit of a community around their product, the product's amazing, but they're just stretched too thin and they're overwhelmed because they're stretched too thin, as we're describing. And it's that and they get so they start with a real purpose of what they want to achieve. But as you get more stretched and you're stuck in or in the day-to-day operations of your business, you lose track of okay, what is it? What is it I actually want to achieve? Um, and I think it's that detachment that I help with, and it's a real so the detachment is the problem because you brands might start ending up going down a way that they actually didn't really want to, but they just didn't step out and look at the bigger picture of what they wanted to do. And that might be a wrong direction, it might be taking the product in a direction that they shouldn't be, it might be it could be all manner of things. And I think the challenge is with when often when um someone starts a product brand, they do it out of the love, out of the passion. And then when you talk about strategy, it can sound a bit like not fun and um serious. And I think what maybe is misunderstood is essentially when we're talking about strategy, it's literally looking at what are we trying to achieve, why are we doing it, who's it for, and how we're gonna make that happen, how we're gonna get there. It's literally just getting clear about what we're doing, why, and how we're gonna do it. And I think the word strategy feels probably can feel a little bit corporate, but actually it's just about breaking it down of what's going on and what do we need to improve, and where do you need support?

SPEAKER_02 59:19

And yeah, yeah, clearing the murky waters and putting in a step-by-step how you're gonna get there. Yes, exactly, exactly that.

SPEAKER_03 59:27

Fantastic, brilliant. It's been incredible to chat to you. Like I say, then I'm sure there's so many more things that we could chat about for hours. Um, and it's so nice to go down memory lane and hear about everything that happened at such an iconic department store as well, and what you were taking on from that, as I think small businesses really need that support, don't they? Especially now when times are quite tough.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Yeah, and I think you're such a retail expert, Lucy. You really do. It's been so enjoyable chatting with you and talking through all the differences within retail and all the things that we've experienced. And I think you're always quite you're always so eloquent with explaining and very clear with explaining exactly your perspective on it and why things have happened and reflecting on why something might have happened and actually what could have been done and the steps that could be put in place to improve it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. You've made my day.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:20

Brilliant. Well, we'll share uh links to your socials in our show notes so everyone can check out all the great work you're doing. But yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Oh yeah, thank you so much, Lucy. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

I've really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

See you later. Kate, are you a drama queen? No. Drama just makes things interesting. That's true. All these thoughts and opinions are our own and based on our own experiences working for a wide variety of retailers. These are all in the hope to entertain and educate and not to reflect negatively on any place we currently or have previously worked.