S9 E10 Jo Ingham & Jo Ward: How Fashion can be more sustainable and still be profitable?

This week, we're joined by Jo Ingham and Jo Ward - two buyers who have pretty much seen it all.

The pair first met at New Look (where they were so often mistaken for each other that they ended up answering each other's phone calls) before going on to build impressive careers across some of the UK's biggest retailers, including River Island, Debenhams, Boohoo, Miss Selfridge, Dorothy Perkins, Arcadia and Jane Norman.

Between them, they've bought everything from childrenswear and accessories to womenswear, worked across stores and online, managed huge teams, and navigated decades of change in the retail industry.

But what we loved about this conversation wasn't just where they've worked- it was hearing what really mattered to them as buyers.

From the excitement of spotting a trend before anyone else, to building products customers genuinely loved, both Jo and Jo share how their roles evolved over the years and why they started questioning whether the industry they'd spent their careers in was still working in the way it should.

After years spent balancing commercial targets with growing concerns about overproduction, waste and sustainability, they both found themselves asking the same question:

Can fashion work differently?

That question ultimately led them to create Our Fashion Fix - a business helping brands and retailers make better decisions by connecting sustainability with commercial performance, rather than treating them as separate conversations.

In this episode, we chat about how buying has changed over the years, why buyers are under more pressure than ever, what brands can learn from the rise of resale, and how Jo and Jo are using some surprisingly high-tech tools (including partnerships with the European Space Agency!) to bring more transparency into fashion supply chains.

It's a fascinating conversation with two buyers who care deeply about the industry and are actively working to help shape what comes next.

Key Takeaways

1) The buying role has changed dramatically: Jo and Jo reflect on how buying has evolved throughout their careers  from smaller ranges, simpler processes and closer supplier relationships to today's fast-moving, multi-channel retail environment.They share why buyers are being asked to do more than ever before, often with fewer resources, and how that pressure can make it harder to focus on what originally drew many people into the role: understanding customers, building great product and making thoughtful buying decisions.

2) Sustainability only works if it works commercially: One thing Jo and Jo are passionate about is helping businesses move sustainability out of a separate "nice to have" conversation and into everyday decision-making. Through Our Fashion Fix's Impact Margin Calculator, they're helping brands understand the financial impact of their buying decisions alongside the environmental one making it easier for teams to have conversations that resonate across the business.

3) Resale isn't a trend - it's part of the future of retail: The rise of platforms like Vinted has changed the way customers shop, discover products and think about value. Jo and Jo explain why resale should be on every buyer's radar, what brands can learn from how their products perform in the second-hand market, and why the future belongs to retailers with a clear point of difference, strong product and a loyal customer base.

To find out more about Jo and Jo's work and explore the Impact Margin Calculator, visit:

Our Fashion Fix | Discover Sustainable Solutions

For Carbon Literacy information ;

Carbon Literacy Training — Our Fashion Fix

For Carbon Literacy Eventbrite tickets ; 

Carbon Literacy for the Fashion Industry Training Tickets, Multiple dates | Eventbrite

And to learn more about Ask Miranda® and become a design partner - deadline for 80% funded pilots is beginning July; 

Ask Miranda — Brand Conscience

And if you'd like more buying insights, trend analysis and conversations like this, join us at:

💌 The Buyers Club

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hello and welcome to Buying and Beyond, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of retail buying.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

We're Kate and Lynn, and we are talking all things retail buying and beyond with real people in retail.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

So grab your drink of choice and come and have a gigger with us. This episode is sponsored by the Buyers Club, our membership created for buyers by buyers.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

If you work in retail buying, you'll know that this role is unlike any other. It's creative, commercial, fast-moving, and incredibly rewarding. But it can also be high pressure and full on. The Buyers Club exists to support you through it all.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Built from feedback from over 400 retail buyers, it's a dedicated community designed to help you grow, connect, and thrive in your career.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

If you want to feel more connected, more confident, and more supported in your buying career, head to our homepage for more information on how to join our club. Now let's get into today's episode. Today's guests are two people who, between them, have pretty much seen every corner of the fashion buying world. Joe Ingham and Joe Ward, yes, two Joes, who have had careers that spend some of the biggest names on the British High Street. Newlook, River Island, Debnams, Boohoo, Tammy Girl, Jay Norman, to name more than a few. And between them, they've held roles as head of buying and buying director, covering everything from women's wear, accessories, children's wear, and across bricks and mortar and pure play. But after decades of witnessing the impact of retail and the environment, they both are found themselves asking the same question. What's the real cost of it all and what can we actually do about it? And that question led them to build our Fashion Fix, a platform where style meets sustainability. And this is a space they've created to help brands, businesses to navigate the shift to a more circular, conscious way of working in fashion. And they're doing it all with a huge amount of commercial credibility to back it up. So we are really excited to welcome Jo and Jo. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

It's so lovely to meet like-minded people and people that have been in the industry too. Yeah, great to hang out with you guys today, Katie and Lindsay.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

It was amazing going through. I was like to name just a few, and I was like, oh, and that we did. And I think I literally have just left a handful off. And it gave me real nostalgia as well. And I'd love to get into a little bit more talking about some of those places, but some of those names that just are childhood favourites. Yeah. Mammy girl, Jane Norman. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

You really wanted the bag, didn't you? I was just gonna say the bag. You had to have the bag with your swimming kit in it. People used to come in and just ask if they could just buy the carrier bags.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah, I'm there. Yeah. That was definitely me. I was there. It was always a peek at Staple, absolutely. And just the style of the clothing in those days. I vividly remember there were like certain items that you just had to have and you could only get from those kind of those places. And I remember Pilot as well being around that time.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was the big competitor.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Kigan's coming back, isn't it? Yeah. It's in London now. So it's something, isn't it, to see that name coming back? Yeah. I think the sustainability rating is a little bit tedious. But there you go.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

But I would come back. I would probably say that for all of them, right? Quite or quite a few of them. And gosh, not to derail at the very beginning of this, but you must have been shocked like the rest of us looking at the Evelyn and Sheen news coming out the other week. Almost going the complete opposite of what you're striving to do now.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, I think Jay can probably talk more about that because Jay writes our monthly update. Jay is wonderful at putting all that sort of stuff together. So yeah, Jay's probably got a few insights on that one, I'm sure. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

It's been very much talked about, hasn't it, across LinkedIn everywhere you met. But I think it's really disappointing for the industry, don't you? I think everyone's out they found a brand that they could feel really confident in were doing things the best way. And then for them to be brought out by Sheen is quite disappointing, quite challenging. But it'll be interesting to see where it goes, won't it?

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Definitely. I think also right. I think there are a few things that it flagged, didn't it? So many companies within retail being bought by private equity. And does that really work with the direction that we want to take retail in? Um rectifying some of our wrongs, maybe. And is that the right way to go? Also, I guess questioning the debt and how it was going to come out from it. And is it saving it? Who knows, really? With equipment, what is it?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

What's left of it? I was solely going to say, what's the what's the messaging now? Yeah. Its message was its brand. So how can it stand by its message now?

unknown 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

And you lost all those customers that it may have had. And then just recently heard about the founder as well, who's now looking to set something completely different up. So it's almost like hey, it's not it's not lost, but it's like that's almost like closing that, and we'll see where that goes and actually what still could come because there's some positive bits there.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

But yeah, super hard to navigate, really hard.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yeah. So let's take it right back to the very, very beginning, if we can. We would just love to know how you both got into the retail industry. Trying to gay first, Jay? We got a new gay first. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

So basically, I loved fashion from a really young age and used to constantly be drawing collections. And we did the women's work, my brother would do the men's work. He since works advertising, but literally did that from when we were seven. And yeah, just loved it. Absolutely loved it. Wanted to be a fashion designer, walked me to New York, all of that sort of good stuff. Showed a graduate fashion week, got offered a job at Max Mara at the time, actually, in Italy. But as a designer, but turned it down because my then boyfriend was in London. I wanted to stay in London. So off I went to Tebaker and I'd already done a year out with those guys as a design assistant. And I went back there and then very quickly realized actually the designers don't get any real overview and real power to decide what gets bought. And being a bit of a control freak, the power, yeah. Um Joey was totally on board with that. Thanks, Jay. I was like, I've got to be a buyer because actually it doesn't matter what I design. If that lady there, who was wonderful, I think at the time Suze was like head of buying at Teb Baker, since went on to be CEO of All Saints. But if she didn't like it, it wasn't gonna get bought anyway. So I was very quickly, hang about a minute, I'm gonna be a buyer. So left there after about three months, having done a year placement with them already, and they were wonderful. And then I moved to Debonham's, got a great foundation there, and then quickly went through the ranks there. Also worked at Mark One, also worked at New Look for 10 years, where I met Jo.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Also it's New Look that you both met.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah, we did. We used to get each other's post, didn't we? Yes, yeah. We used to get phone calls and like yeah, can you be in this meeting? And then I'd ring Jay and go, That's so not my meeting.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Is that your oh my god, it went down to that. That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Did you ever find swapping just to see what's going on? The different things. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:17

Yeah, Monday. When I announced I was pregnant and everyone thought it was the other Jay that's pregnant, but that actually shortly after the other Joe was also pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Oh no, well, yeah, I can't wait to both got a 12-year-old that's bizarre actually. We've you know, worked at the same place, got pregnant at the same time, did basically done everything together, Joe, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 7:33

We just very much mirrored each other's careers. I love that. Got the shock when people were like, Congratulations, and you were like, How do you know?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Wait, I'm not told anyone, oh my gosh, I must be like blooming. Am I blooming in a good way? Oh, I don't know. All that sort of good stuff. But yeah, I need 10 years at New York and then went to Arcadia. So while I'm in New York, I was head of buying for China, so died for France, Belgium, Poland, China, and then went to Arcadia, and then Miss Offridge, Dorothy Perkins, and then the Boohoo group, and then finally Debanham's buying director. So seen it all really and loved it. Oh my god, what a ride it's been. And have lived through I feel a life of a buyer basically is my life. And look at it, and all the debates that people are having now are the debates that we've been having for years. I think they did something the other day about is any more flying business class still? And I was like, Oh god, this has been going on for years, the whole debate.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yes, and then it's so interesting to look at the results, isn't it? And be like, Yeah, you are, but you're not, oh, but you are for this, but you're not your results are great, but they're still selling you business.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Oh yeah, gosh, that's interesting, isn't it? But you now know that your HR team have seen this, so they won't be next year.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

So not great.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

So yeah, lots of that going on, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

But anyway, Joe, over to you. Yeah, so I came at it from a slightly different angle to Jay's. I was very lucky growing up, and I lived in North Wales, but every October my parents would bring us to London for half-term, and I just fell in love with walking past those huge shop window sulfridges. I just remember being it as a kid in awe, it was just the most amazing thing I'd ever seen, and I just knew that was what I wanted to do. But equally, I knew that I wasn't a designer. In today's world of AI, maybe I could have been a designer, but back then I knew that you had the creative ideas, but I knew I wasn't going to be designer, so it's like role could I do. So I was kept my options open and uh did business management at university because I don't even think there were fashion buying courses back making myself sound really old. It's kept my options open and I did some um got some retail experience working in Harrods during the summer sales, which was an eye-opener in itself. Uh but yeah, so I felt it really strong that I wanted to get into buying. So when I graduated, flying for jobs, and they're all very much, oh, you're more suited to being an allocator, going down and merchandising everything and the buying side. I know I really want to do the buying side, I had no idea. So it came to the point where I got offered a job with Newlook, which was at the time was down in Weymouth on the South Coast, as a buyer's admin, or a job as an allocator for Disney stores in Hammersmith, and I was so torn because I really wanted to be in London, but equally I knew that long-term plan so I really wanted to be a buyer. So I took the Newlook job and headed off a five-hour drive from North Wales down to Weymouth. And that was the start of my career. But actually, it was brilliant. I think the fact that Newlook was down there on the South Coast, it was a real little community, feeling because so many people started off their careers there, which he was still really good friends of mine now. So that was brilliant, and then yeah, I spent about five years there, but again, was too desperate to be in London. So then I moved to London and went to River Island, which again was great, going from like a big company to more of a smaller, more medium kind of family-owned company. So I spent about five years there, and then I went to J Norma, which again was very different, again, a much smaller company, but really fun, and it was a great time to join. You can imagine the brand was booming, you just had to put a J Norma decan on anything, and it went out. Really wow. Back in the days when retail was, you know, buying was just so much easier than it is now. We used to source a lot locally as well from Leicester, so it was great having all those trips and those great relationships with the suppliers. It was a really you know, really fun time and a really nice company, and it was quite small. So if you had an idea and you wanted to do something, they just gave you the freedom to go off and do it. So that was brilliant. But then obviously times changed and the business didn't really change with it. So sadly, the business went to administration. And at that point, I went back to New Lick and spent another 11 years there managing the branded area for most of that time. So looking after brands of concessions, which again was a really interesting area because meeting all those small brands, helping them grow, etc.

SPEAKER_05 11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

So yeah, and then it's quite funny because before Joe left New Lick, we had a few chats, didn't we, Joe? And you talked about doing something different, and I was like, Oh, I'm really jealous, I'd really like to do that. But at the time, quite a young child, and it was easier to stay where you were and you'd be stable, whatever. And then a few years later, look where we ended up.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

That's amazing. And just to take a little bit of time just to talk about your amazing careers and how much it's changed. Yeah, just as you talked about, even the differences from the very, very beginning, working for a retailer that isn't based in London and then that's quite, as you say, quite a quite big establishment to them working for a company that's based in London or by on the outskirts. That was me from when I first got my role at Accessorize. I was like, Yeah, I'm a fashion buyer, a BA, Accessorize in London, I mean circular, but yeah, but but I remember it being with the dream. But even that, the change in the structure, did you the teams? How did that feel? And like how River Island used to be very sort of family run, yeah, yeah. Quite a small business that's grown an incredible amount, really, over the years. What was it like transitioning to those sort of in those different buying offices?

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Yeah, it's always quite a challenge, isn't it? So I think the things knew that was really big, but then everyone knew everyone because it's quite a small environment and you need to see everyone outside work as well, which sometimes was great, sometimes wasn't. It was that it's a different sort of mentality, I guess it felt more like a family. Whereas moving to London was different and being at River, but again, a really lovely experience. But it was very family, was still very hands-on. Vanessa Lewis was in all the sign-offs, and it was all very much driven by at the time you had a fantastic fine director called Farida, who you just think, gosh, I wish I could be that person. She always had a great inspiration, a great way of looking at things. When you got stuck, she always had a great angle. And I always felt like she almost between her and Vanessa, they drove what River Island was, which was brilliant, and it had such a strong kind of identity and such a strong store. And I guess going from you that were located for lots of different products for a wide age range, whereas River Island was quite more niche, but they had a really strong niche when they really needed that customer while the customer loved having the branding on everything, it was a real identity. You know, there's all sorts of really different kind of format, so yeah, it was really interesting, but equally it's quite funny going to like the River Island, where a lot of the processes were still really manual, really manual. Because I remember being at uh New Look and implemented a new PLM. And as an admin, I was a super user for the PLM, which at the time got really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Superusers, I love that. Super user, yes, felt very important.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Yeah, definitely. And then going back to his handwritten ledgers and stuff at uh River, and they'd want you need to put a swatch with a fabric and a picture, print out a picture of the garment. It was very manual, which again was quite surprising coming from a bigger retailer, but equally not it was quite a fun experience when everyone was really hands-on and really knew what they're doing, and you'd complete these ledger files with all the sales data in and sit with the directors every Monday morning and go through every line. So, yeah, really different. But again, it's really good to see all the different angles, I think, of how different businesses work.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, totally agree. And there's a few things that you've mentioned. One, having these iconic people that you work for. Joe, I know you mentioned somebody as well at uh Teb Baker when you first started. These names stick in your head. I remember Deepee at Accessorizer, and she was our head of fine when we first joined all wanted to be her, so much so that when she had a big birthday and we all went out to celebrate, she was renowned for having like Canacok. And I remember we all dressed up to be her for a night out, and we all had a can of coke, we have a diet coke, and we'd like to have her face, didn't we? We had to feel that and we'd all had to dress like her because we all ultimately did want to be her. Like and that's the kind of oh yeah, they're so cool, and I can't wait one day to to be that. And I love that there is that kind of like feeling and that respect for people within the industry that you're just like wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

That's the make or break between you loving a job, isn't it, and loving a company. It really is the people that make the difference.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

The leaders, yeah. Yeah the leaders that are there that you inspire to be and you want to work hard for, and you and you respect them and the company. That's so important. And when you were just mentioning about River Island having such a clear customer, oh my goodness, yeah. I remember what we used to say. We used to beach used to be one of the ones when I was working on beachware swimwear, we always used to talk about swimwear, but there would definitely be items that we were like, that's really cool, but that's very river. It's very river. Really? It's almost like extra detail. In fact, we went into the Manchester store just the other week of River, and I feel like River's been on quite a journey, shall we say, recently, and maybe has lost its way a little bit at times. But definitely now we went in and we walked in, and we're like, Oh my goodness, no, this is the river. We remember the music playing. Everything had a little bit extra glitz to it. It was like, yeah, not the basic go to river for a basic.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

No, definitely, definitely. But also, do you remember what you're talking about? That Tammy Girl there, do you remember when River was Chelsea Girl before it became River Island with the whole big wooden in-store shop fits and all that? And remember growing up, it's like, I want to get my school back from River Island because I want to look really cool and grown up going in there, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yes, yeah, it is. It's like the when stores are really iconic and they have their values and you know what they stand for, and you've got a reason to go to it, that's what you want. I feel like that was what we felt when we went back into River just the other week. We're like, yes, feels like coming home. I'm not necessarily your quintessential river girl, but I know people that are, and like you said, that you want the branding on the bags because I would always go in and be like, Oh, I love this bag, I just don't want it to say river all over. Yes, I know that there are people that do.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah, but it's like there's Michael Cause bags or anything like that. It's like, but I totally know what you mean though. The river was just it was just so extra that it just got a little bit like it, but it couldn't be replicated by anybody, which was great. Because anyone else that did it, it didn't quite hit it quite right. Yeah, but uh but yeah, but now it all seems very bland. There's so much the high street that is so bland that actually you really want that USP. And why are people coming for me in particular? Why are people familiar with my brand? Why do they want my brand? But and it definitely doesn't feel like there's those real people that have sticking their head above the parath pit going pick me because I'm different because of this. Yeah, it doesn't feel like that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

It feels a little bit yeah. People are almost a bit too nervous, they want to be everything for everyone, yeah, and that doesn't really work. Just be brave and be something for someone, but they should stand out, maybe all work for you.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Do you think the role of the buyer has changed a lot and then's reflecting in that because I've had to take on so many different guises through COVID, having to take on all these different pressures, and then they've stayed with them. So then they're they're losing that ability to just be the brand, be in the room, and have the energy that we had when we first started in these amazing brands.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

It's but I think things are less considered as well. I think your teams are smaller, I think your responsibility is larger. We all know that returns are really high, we all know that the pressure is on with regards to margin constraints, etc., and those kind of things, but we all know that people are buying shallower. So actually, there's more options. So you're doing more, but actually you don't have any more resource. So you're channing them out, you're literally like channing them out.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

When we first started, I mean you had a shop, or maybe a bit later when you had online, but you just had a shop and it was like, if we put it in the shop window and everyone can see it at the front of the shop window, then we'll sell it. And it was it was as simple as that, wasn't it? You decided what people saw, what you put in front of them, then suddenly online became a thing. Some people caught on quickly, some people got left behind. Yeah, and then now it's not even that, now it's all the different marketplace channels, it's all the social media channels, there's a billion and one way. We were on a call last week about how A, you know, like how are people shopping now? How is AI finding your product? Yeah, which still seems to be the billion dollar question. I mean, it's so difficult now. It's not just about buying a great product and getting in front of your customer, there's all the other dynamics to it. And I think Joe and I talk about this quite a lot. Remember when e-com first started to get big and the e-com teams would come and say, Oh, you know, we want you to do so, we want you to do that. And you'd be like, We're the buyers, like, why don't they tell us what to buy? They're e-com, we need it. And it's like nobody really worked together. It's like, no, this is what we do, and you do that bit. Whereas now being so interconnected and dependent on each other, it's like one can't work unless everyone works together, but yet it's so complex and there's so many variables to it that it's really difficult. And the same with other marketplaces, people want to be on marketplaces to create brand awareness. But equally, what does that do to their brand? Because then they're losing control in terms of who's seeing it, what promos go in, etc., etc. So it is it really is like such a different role to and even within businesses, how that's managed. Now, in some roles, the buyer has all of that responsibility, in other roles they just buy for core and the e-com, then another team might manage the marketplace side of it, etc. But again, it's like how does all that work together? Because at the end of the day, to the customer, you're all just one brand.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Yeah, they don't break it down like that to the different departments and who's responsible for which, they just want to see the product. Exactly. The other bit that feels like it's a big change, although let's say this has been not such a recent big change necessarily, is you talked about how quite a lot of your suppliers in Leicester and how great that was and those relationships that you had with the suppliers, because you were able to go and see the factories and understand how it was all made.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

And then so much has moved overseas, which then was a big change. But then we've got the trips we've talked about whether you're going to fly business class or first class or economy. Are you going to go straight into a meeting? Are you going to have a date or just rest and then go into the meeting? And everything's just packed in and it's full on. And that in itself is quite a lot. When you're going around, you do end up pretty delirious on those trips. You're traveling around a lot, you're meeting so many different people, different faces, trying to remember everything, fitting a lot into a short period of time. Whereas when it's more local manufacturing, you could probably do more regular visits, having to pack less in. But also now we've got to a point where even those trips are maybe not happening quite so frequently. And so buyers maybe not really understanding that full process or how that might impact it, or making decisions, but not really knowing the background in the production. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I think buyers now they've given so much responsibility. Brands are pushing, some brands, that's probably unfair. Some brands are really pushing to get lower salaries. And you've really got to wonder what are you getting for that? Have you got the experience that you really need? Have you educated those people to actually give them what they need? Because yes, people come out of university with an education, and that's wonderful, but it isn't necessarily what you need to run a business, and it isn't an all rounded approach. And it certainly doesn't give you the day to day capability to run with things quickly. And we all know it's a fast paced environment. It isn't one for someone who's a shrinking violet. You know, you really need to be able to fight your case. With authority. Because let's be honest, there's 10 kids behind you that are all desperate for your job. So if you don't have any value to add, then quite frankly, no one needs you. And that seems to be a throwaway nature of the business, sadly, at the moment. So I I think it's really hard for buyers now. They've just got so overwhelmed with what they've got on their plate. And yes, it is great to build those relationships. And it is wonderful to have those relationships close to home. But obviously the constant elephant in the room is margin. And it's can we get it cheaper? Can we get it quicker? Can we get it? And it's yes, you can get it quicker. That comes with onshoring. If you want to get it on a better margin, that comes with offshoring. And actually, there's a price to pay for that. Everything is about a balance. And for us, it's about teaching those buyers the balance within their roles, understanding that it isn't just about cost and it isn't just about margin, it isn't just about speed. There are many elements that you're trying to spin at the same time now that actually, if you're buying the best product in the world, if it if it misses its marketing campaign, etc., huge losses. Well, we're not going to sell through that volume. It's, or equally, if I have a great sale of something, but I can't get back into it quickly, how do I trade that line? There's so much to consider. It isn't just uh, am I going to buy it close to home or going to buy it far away? It's a case of how do I get the right mix within my range to enable me to maximize not only my profits but my efficiencies and all of those kind of things too. It's the gig. That's the job.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

But I think option counts are really interesting one as well. Because if you think back when we only had stores, you just bought enough options to fill your stores and that was it. So that was what you had to work with. So buyers had more time to focus on key areas and get more into the nitty-gritty, whereas suddenly e-com exploded and it was like, we have to have 10,000 dresses, we have to have 20,000. And it was almost like you buy for your store to make sure that all looks nice. And then it was like, I need another, I don't know, 10 or however many options or whatever. And it was like, oh God, what can we buy? What can we get? So you haven't got the same amount of time and care to put into everything. And equally, I think Jay was saying, it's back when it was all a bit simpler, it's you really understood your open costings, you had a good relationship with your supply, you understood your fabric costs, you went through it all in detail, you both had a really good understanding to negotiate and you'd come to a price that you both felt that was fair and worked for both of you. Whereas with the speed and the pace of everything with the e-com growth and then the requirements on buyers, don't get me wrong, it's there's a lot of pressure on a lot of requirements to hit this. And like Joe said, it's all about margin, margin at the end of the day. They don't want to know that you're doing anything you shouldn't be, but at the end of the day, it's a margin that everyone looks at. And you clear lack of lack of knowledge can lead to those kind of errors, can't it? Constantly pushing for a harder price, better quantity, or you agree a price, and then halfway through the line everyone decides I don't like it like that anymore, and actually going to change everything. But we're not paying any more money for it because we're already agreed that margin, so we can't change it. And it's like, can you just do it for me this time? And it's because then it all goes back to the suppliers. And I think one of the things we've really we've got some great supplier relationships, haven't we, Joe, over the years? And it's great because you can call on them, but equally hearing about the challenges from their side, and say at the end of the day, business has got to work for both sides, hasn't it? It's got to be a few years.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I definitely advocate for that. And I think whenever I brought on a new supplier, it was a joint, it was a joint venture. How do I grow you? How do you grow us kind of thing?

SPEAKER_05 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Where do you think we are now in retail and where do you think it's going? Because I my views are that there's obviously a lot of cost cutting happening, a lot of roles going. But we're gonna I feel and predict that we're gonna get to this point where they feel like they've made the mistake and they've gone too quickly, cut things too quickly, and it's all gonna come back. What's your sort of thought and gauge on the industry at the moment?

SPEAKER_04 25:35

I would agree, I think this whole term overproduction, and it is overproduction, isn't it? Because the way, again with e-com, the way it works, and you return to lead time, etc., you don't realise that half of it's come back before you're onto your second or third repeat, and then suddenly you get to the end of the season, it's like, oh, how did we end up with all this stock on that? That was a bestseller. And it's actually when you look at the whole tail of it, it wasn't really that good, was it? But because we were all rushing to try and fly it, get it back in two weeks, that's where we're at, and that's what everyone's doing. And then suddenly there's far too many clothes in the world, half of which have never even made it onto a body and been worn. And here we are, and I think when you see those pictures in Ghana, and obviously there have been lots of trips out to Ghana recently, it is just shocking, isn't it, to think, gosh, how did we end up with that many clothes over there, and half of them still got labels on, and yet and yet they're poor quality, they've been rushed, they're not right. I think again, fit is a big thing again, where we constantly try to get things in on trying to get things in quickly, cut corners. Like quite often fits that aren't right, and then there's huge volumes of stock coming in that doesn't fit correctly. We all know with all the will in the world, if it doesn't fit, you can't give it away. It's gonna keep coming back, isn't it? It doesn't matter how cheap you make it, etc. So I think there are lots of lessons being learned, but equally it's how you decouple that growth from profit, isn't it? That's the big conversation, and I think it's really exciting that vintage is now number three retailer in the UK. You saw that coming a few years ago. Yeah, I know. I think we did actually, Jay. We did do that. I mean I remember in one of my last roles, I did try secondhand in stores, and it just no one was ready for it. They just didn't, the customs didn't get it, the store managers didn't get it. Whereas I think now what do they say? 60% of UK women shop on vintage. And I think also 60% of women first or shoppers first look on vintage when they want to buy something new, and then they might go direct to the the own brand website. But again, you can't ignore it anymore. It's it's a new revenue stream. But equally, it's quite a big uh change for a buyer to think about how they're going to incorporate their secondhand product into their range. But equally, Joe and I feel very strongly that if they did, then you would buy very differently, you wouldn't see the need for this constant newness of volume. But I think we're still at that pivotal point where we're starting to see more retailers bringing their own retail in-house. And obviously, hopefully in the UK the EPR will be confirmed soon. We're already seeing it extended produce responsibility in Europe. But again, we need to start thinking about how much are we really producing and how much are we really selling? And again, when you look at that versus the profit margins that are announced at the end of the financial year, it doesn't really add up, does it? So I think I'd love to see I think quotas on how much people are allowed to produce, because at the end of the day, you can still, it doesn't matter how much you're making, you need to engineer your product to make sure that you make a good profit out of it. That's the key, isn't it? You don't need to make loads of product, you need to make better products and market it to the right customer, etc. You can make no profit doing it that way, but yet we still seem to strive for more volume or more.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, it's almost like this drug that they can't get off, because I completely agree. If things were, if we made fewer things and they were made better, quality, fitted better, your profit would be much better. It's this understanding the end-to-end cost, and I think that's the thing that we're still trying to get to. And I think it's really hard sometimes to break the cycle. And exactly as you said, Joe, with the rise of e-commerce and now social selling, there is this almost thought that the walls are elastic and we can just buy and buy and fill and fill. And I think with trends changing so frequently, and everybody's there's a new trend every day that everybody feels like they have to jump on, but you don't just choose right for your customer. And I think exactly as you say, you end up going to this kind of like overproduction and things do get missed because you're constantly like something new's coming, or something new's coming, and you're not actually looking at what you've already got here and actually how you could maybe translate this to that kind of trend or that customer, and having a lot more of this, I think ultimately has to be unfortunately government-led in a way to kind of think we need it needs to be government supported, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

But I think going back to what Lynn said, it's basically everything at the moment. Yes, I do think the industry will come back. And yes, I do think it would almost have a renaissance, so to speak, but I won't think it'll be as it was. And I don't think it will be the same retailers. I think smaller emerging brands are definitely gaining traction. I think people care more from an ethical point of view. You want to feel autonomy with the brands that you're buying into. I think there's definitely a movement for every time I purchase something that's a vote for the kind of worlds that I want. And I think we're all getting on that gravy train, understanding it and understanding the value of our clothing. So it may not be that the brands are there, but actually, do we need more buyers that actually go into the likes of vintage? Do we need someone that actually grades it a little bit more? So I'd be really interested to know on vintage, the number of people that are shopping, because I do this, I filter by brand new or I filter by very good condition or good condition. So what happens to all the other stuff? What happens to the stuff that's satisfactory? What happens to the stuff that is just good or poor? What's happening with all that product? And is it just sitting on that site? And actually, that isn't good because that'll be blocking the site with regards to visibility for everybody else. So when do those kind of third-party re-commerce sites, where do they then become the driving partner within this? And I think we're there. I think it's actually how do those sites then collaborate with the brands in particular and say, but actually, I need your help to do this because I have all your stuff, but I don't know how to curate it. Can you help me? And I think there'll be a different retail environment coming from that. And I think there is very much that volume-led sort of angle, and then there's that artisan angle where actually people want, I really want to know where my stuff comes from. And I really want to know the people that make it, and I want to know the origin of things. I think there's almost two levels to that, or maybe even three. You get people that want brand new, you get people that want pre-loved, but they want it curated and edited and served to them in a way that looks, you know, familiar to them. Or you have your artisan level, but it's really complicated. It's like there are some people that love a jumble sale and some people that blum and hate it. And if you said to my husband, go into that store, it's on 50% off, he'd literally be practically vomiting outside and go, I just literally can't go in. Whereas I'd be like, show me the way.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah, definitely. And the charity shops led the way with that, though, didn't they? That's mastering them up and making them a bit more accessible. I have a charity shop that I absolutely love going to, and it is all curated really well, it's colour matched, it's brands together. So they really started to lead the way with that, didn't they? And I think it's so interesting what you're saying about vintage, and I think that's definitely gonna come through. It's becoming so many people's businesses now as well, isn't it? The flipping strategy is really interesting as well. I'm really, really trying to learn and educate myself a bit more about that. And I think, yeah, it's only gonna, it's really, I think the whole sort of yeah, platform of those sort of poorer quality pieces, that there is definitely something in that, isn't there? How are you gonna do that? What happens to all that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah, I'm really concerned about that because I know in my house, anything that is poor quality or what have you, it goes to the recycling centre or it goes to the dump and the clothes recycling bit, but or it festers in my loft. Yeah. In the hope that some woman will randomly want it on vintage or some guy. And no doubt they will when I'm away for a weekend and I can't find it and it's buried under everything. No doubt that they will want it and they'll want to pay 25p for it then.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Exactly. That's the thing. That's the interesting thing. It's the fun that vintage, I think, started and managed to grow so quickly because it was quite accessible price point. Everyone's like, Oh, brilliant, I can get that for X. Great. I think it's also interesting to see now it's almost got people's trust that are starting to spend more on it, and you people will buy higher priced items on it. But my slight concern about it, not to derail this, is the number of people I'm hearing that are starting to use it just as a sales channel for new product. Never the intention of vintage when you hear people being like, Oh, yeah, I started my business because it started selling really well on vintage, and I'm like, that is not what vintage is for. And that alarms me slightly.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, yeah. And it's that, and there's also the fact that lots of people are it's for feeding the whole overconsumption that you know, I'm buying as much as I want because don't worry, I can sell it next week. I so I can wear it this weekend and I can sell it next week for a little bit less than what I paid for it. So essentially they're treating it almost like a rental platform. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

On the flip side, though, we are seeing a rise of particularly with streetwear brands where you know really small drops, they're really exclusive, they've got a really core customer behind them, they're really engaged. And you people will wait for that one drop, they'll be in that place, they'll get that thing. And that's that it's almost a prestige of having that gum, getting that gum, which again used to be a thing for us, but now we just made everything available 24-7. It's like you can never run out of anything because that's bad. But is it really bad? So, you know, I do think there's a flip a flip towards that. Did you see the was it swatch AP thing? Oh my goodness, goodness. Whoa, that was nuts. And then when they had to close the stores because people couldn't fit with the demand, but I didn't even know Swatch was that popular anymore.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

But here we go. And then I think when they found out what it was and it was a little pocket watch. Yeah, but you gotta have it, but what do I do with this?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah, but you put it in your handbag, apparently, don't you? Apparently.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah, what's that? Hang on, I'll get my handbag out. Oh, I must not be scared to put it on my bag. I feel like you'd get your bag drinking.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Yeah, the resale value of them is just crazy. But I totally agree with what you're saying about the kind of almost the pre-order model that's coming, it is quite it's brilliant. There was some we had a guest on last season, uh, Ginny and me, and she started it at university, and she does pre-order only, and she thinks she knows what it's going to be, and then she goes and made she makes to order. It's like such a good concept, and there's the kind of collaborations that they can do with designers, and you build up the hype, and then it's like limited edition, and you just get it. I'm really, I'm so for that.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Yeah, yeah. It's that whole engagement piece, isn't it? And again, I think if you find a brand that you really like, you know that they will fit you well, you really like it, then you're loyal to it, you'll keep going back. Whereas I know there's mixed messages, and obviously for the younger ones, they love secondhand, but equally they're quite driven by she and team me, whatever's popping up on the phone every five minutes. But the other thing that we talk a lot about is we hear it so many times everyone says customer demands next day delivery, and I'm like she only she or he only demands it because we told them they can have it. Yeah. You don't get next day delivery on vintage and the number three retailer in the UK. Yeah, but we create these misconceptions of what the consumer demands, and it's do they really demand that or not? If you've got a great product like SWAT AP, if you tell them they've got to wait six weeks for it, we can wait and block the shopping centre for it. Do you know what I mean? So if you've got a great brand and you've got a great product and you're confident in what you're doing, 100%, then we shouldn't feel like we have to never run out and we have to have everything available to the drone delivery in an hour.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

I mean, isn't it? I mean look at the success of made before it obviously what happened there. We don't know why that happened, but uh that was whole driven by waiting 12 weeks for something, and you did wait 12 weeks. It was great design, it was really it was really lovely made, it was unique. You would wait.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

But you didn't wait was too much buying too much stock that they were then sitting on that wasn't their model, and buying so much stock that you could literally have the next day, which wasn't necessary, they didn't need it to grow.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

But also safers and furniture, you're used to waiting. Yeah, like it was a model that people were very familiar with, but you didn't need to change it. They didn't need to be IKEA, let IKEA be IKEA are you doing this? Like, but I think lots of brands lose that, they lose their USP and they really step away from who they are. And I think the main thing that Joe and I always say you don't have a good brand without a good product. It ultimately is all about the product. You can tell people to buy it, you can tell, you can do everything with everything. It's fine, you can really put it out there. We all spend a lot on marketing, all the brands do. But realistically, if your product isn't good, it will be a boomerang, it will come straight back. You will not be a successful brand. So it has to be a product first and foremost that you're happy with that people love. And then that will drive your business just as much as anything else. But you have to have the strength to do that and the real belief in yourself. And I think many brands are procrastinating and concerned about what other people are doing, and that's become so easy over the years with the lights of social media and everything else that's going on. We know everything that's happening everywhere right now. Yeah, but actually, if I just stayed in my own lane and concentrated, I'd probably do a really good job of what I'm doing. Going back to talking about buying, there is you probably you guys probably won't remember because you're a little bit younger than us, as old ETH, but there used to be a bar at Selfridges called Spirit Bar. And it was on a Friday afternoon. And when I worked at Debenham's, you would literally, if your fax machine ran out of paper this whole day, you'd be sending your orders off by fax or whatever to Turkey or wherever else. And then you basically go, Oh, I'm out of paper, can't send anymore. So it'd all go to the spirit bar at normally about 3 p.m. on a Friday, and that was it. And the directors would all go, they'd all put money behind the bar, and that's what you do on a Friday. But it was because we were all in the moment, we've done everything we possibly can do. So it's the weekend now, whether you like it or not, there's nothing else to answer to. I can't do any more than I've done. Just gonna go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

You can always do more. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

But actually, there's a real opportunity with knowing when to stop. Yes. We always used to talk about it in Newlook all the time that you mean Newlook were the brands that rode the crest of the wave. There'd be a trend, and other people might be alive doctors and they'd bring it in or whatever. But we would really ride that trend when it was right on peak, but we'd always argue, oh God, have we cut that off at the right time or have we kept it going a little bit too long? Riding that crest of the wave, knowing who you are and having a USP, if you can do those three things, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 39:28

The other thing I was just gonna say is obviously the rise of resale has really affected repeats as well. Because I mean, you think always, oh, it's the best-selling print, we're gonna repeat it, but actually, if you've got how many options of it available on vintage for then actually it's different. So again, retailers need to start working differently. All these factors are going to affect their sales.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Yeah, 100%. And going back to what you're saying about margin, and I used to struggle so much about trying to push our business more into thinking long-term sustainability. Let's give this let's give this supplier all this material or this new range a chance. It might not be bringing in so much margin, but it's doing it's what we should be doing and what we should be known. Have you got one piece of advice that you could give a buyer that's potentially having that challenge in in her or his sign-off where they're trying to push something like that over the line and they're really struggling against a brick wall of margin? I think we've got a tool for that.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

Yeah, we've great. And it's like they don't need to take into account any other facts. Nobody talks about what happens to the garment after you've sold it, because that was never part of the conversation, was it? And then suddenly we were seeing where all the clothes are ending up, and it's like, oh gosh, did I do that? I didn't know I was doing that. That feels really awful. So, yes, that's why we came up with this tool today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Brilliant. Should we take it back a bit then? Do you want to just give us a bit of a give us a bit of an overview of why you started our fashion fix and how it all came about and how you got together to do it? Because I think it's a really interesting story.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

So we basically, Jo and I, like Jo said, we had lots of conversations when we were when I was leaving New York, and I was very much, I want to do something better. This doesn't quite feel right. I feel like I'm just doing more and more all the time. And about probably about seven years ago now, maybe even a bit longer, I bought the domain name for our fashion fix and I'd said it a few times to Jo. And Joe was like, Well, that sounds really cool. And it's probably a bit of a scardy cat because Arcadia came along with a great job offer, and I really love the brands and your team are brilliant. Literally cannot tell you how great they are. So we I went and did that, but I came back to it and it's like, I'm gonna do it now. I'm really gonna do it. Um I went to Cambridge and I studied business sustainability management at Cambridge Institute for Sustainable Leadership. Um, came away with a pretty solid mark, was very pleased until Jay did hers and obviously got a better mark. Um you think I can learn lots there and really thought, gosh, I can really implement this back into what I'm doing, the business that I work in in the industry that I work in, albeit that I learnt lots about different industries whilst working through that, about you know, glassworks and coffee and lots of other bits that you learn along the way. But I kept digging, I kept finding out more and was like, oh my gosh, send me rabbit holes. And then I was just like, Joe, we really need to do something, whether that's a marketplace or whether it's helping people that are in the same situation that we're in, because I felt pretty crap about myself because I was just like, I'm I've got two kids. I'm working in an industry that I adore, like literally adore. Have always wanted to be there, but it just felt like something was off and there had to be a bit more or a better way of doing it. And that sort of gave me sort of the light bulb moment of, okay, that's where it is. I can do things in a better way, but I need to show others that it's possible. And it isn't a trade-off between profit and actually doing a better thing. It just means that you need to shift your mindset a little bit longer, stop short-term thinking and actually think about planning your business and doing it long term. So then Joe obviously went to Sisland as well. And we did it, got a better mark, whatever. And we were based it very well. Based on very good marks, yes. Yeah, based in the 90s, it was fine. Which actually my husband always laughed because I'm always like, I went to Cambridge University, he's like, No, you went to Cambridge Institute for Sustainable Leadership. I went, which is in Cambridge University. Fine. So yeah, Joe and I brought it all together. We started writing articles, we started building tools, we met people in the industry. So the community within Assizzle, which is the abbreviation for it, is wonderful. Everyone's really open, everyone's really up for collaboration. And that sort of starts your brain thinking in different ways. What else can I do? And actually, is this a business opportunity or is this needed? So we pivoted, we met people that were like minded, we met brand conscience, opportunities came up there as well with the European Space Agency. So we've ended up building tools basically to help people that are in the same situation as us, but actually really evolved. Transparency. So we have our impact margin calculator, which helps buyers understand the impact of the products that they're buying, but in a format that they're very familiar with. It's within their line of travel, it's within their whole workflow. So that seemed like the right thing to do for Joe and I, which is what we've been working on. So if anyone is listening that's interested in knowing a little bit more about that, please reach out. We're looking for design partners at the moment. And the wonderful European Space Agency are currently funding 80% of that, which we hear is a bit of a coup. So that's pretty good. Have I missed anything though? Also the transparency with cotton. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

I was just going to go back to what you were saying in terms of we just really felt in the last sort of 10 years that we worked in buying, we've got some great sustainability teams, there were lots of great conversations happening, but we get a lot of external consultants come in and tell us how we should be doing things more sustainably. But they just didn't speak the right language, they didn't understand how it worked. Because again, retailers, the way buying works is quite niche. If you don't have the experience, it's quite hard to understand. Because I guess from the outside, a lot of it probably doesn't make that much sense, but that is how it needs to work. And so yeah, we really felt that we could bridge that gap because we really understand it, we've lived it, we've heard all the challenges, we know what the pressures are, but equally we can see that there is a better way of doing things. So we really wanted to be the ones to try and bridge that gap again, which drove tech tools. Yeah, so the transparency project, yeah. So we're really lucky to be working on this project with the European Space Agency. So it's about using satellite earth observation and DNA tagging to trace cotton from the field. Because again, we've got there's lots of talk about organic cotton, regenerative cotton, where's your cotton coming from? And everyone says, Oh, it's coming from India, it's fine. Your supplier's got it. Because again, it's like how much how many questions as a buyer do you ask about where your fabric comes from? You buy it from your supplier who might be based in India and they get it from wherever they get it from. And that's the conversation's never really went that far up the chain, and then suddenly, I think if we need to be transparent, then we should be transparent all the way right to the start. What is the impact of growing that cotton, with climate change, etc.? There are big implications. We only found out when we started this project, didn't we, that I didn't realise a whole river in India had lost its supply because the water was diverted to grow cotton, so a whole community lost a river because of that. And when you start thinking about this, you think, but we were part of this, we were buying this cotton, and yet we we didn't know that. Which again, I think, is one of the challenges when you're in those roles as a buyer. You quite think quite insularly, you think about what you need to do. Your kind of sphere is quite small, but actually it can't be that small anymore. You need to have more of an understanding. I know you can't be an expert in everything, but equally you need to have more of an understanding in asking more questions. Again, I think perhaps we assumed quite a lot because you take on a department, they always bought the cotton from the supplier, they got it from there. Oh, that's what we do. Has anybody actually asked where you know where are we getting the cotton from? What are you the farmers, what are the ginners, what chemicals are we using, etc. We didn't ask those questions. And I think again with green claims coming in now, obviously there's more and more emphasis on making sure that any claims you're making are correct. We've seen lots of examples recently, haven't we, in the press, big brands which have been caught out, 10% of the figures, isn't it? So it's a big cost. So again, we felt like using the satellite earth observation and the DNA tagging means you can really be confident in where your cotton has come from. So it's been a really exciting project to work on, hasn't it, Joe?

SPEAKER_00 47:08

I think for us it's been like the journey of buying. Joe and I, how on earth have we ended up with working with the European Space Agency? That just feels a little bit nuts. And we've had a lot of those moments, I think, a car park in a very large retailer where Joe and I had a total pinch me moment where we were like, did that just happen? Okay, great. Yeah, that's really weird. But okay, that just happened. But you're just you know that we have strength and in our convictions, we know what we're doing is the right thing. Along the way, you do question yourself, do we know about a bit about this? Do we know enough about this? Everyone gets that imposter syndrome of actually, can I do this? And I think for us it's been really helpful. Obviously, Joe and I are very like-minded. We dress the same, we've got the same name, but at the same time, we we work with other female founders. So, within that's been really supportive. We're like, no, no, no, you've got this. Like, why are you even questioning yourself? Look at why you've worked, look at what you've achieved in the past, look at your results. We've totally got this. This is not a problem. And it does almost feel like over the years, not to get into too big a topic, but I've worked with lots of guys, and some of them have been blooming wonderful, and some of them have been, gosh, what a load of smoke and mirrors. And it feels a little bit like working with a female group, we're very much why are you even doing that? And equally, why did you not tell them that you could do this and you could do that? And you're wonderful at this, but you've downplayed that, and that is actually we're holding each other to account of actually that's not acceptable. You should have gone in there and said X, Y, and Z because you're brilliant. And I think over pivoting through the through this from being something we're so familiar with to actually taking on sort of new skill sets, you know. I was working with digital twins not that long ago as well. And it's like really, we're innovators. And Joe and I, we have these chats and we're like, actually, we need to write down that we are now entrepreneurs and innovators. That is actually what we do. But I think that's been a really important journey for us to understand that there's real value working with people that understand the industry intrinsically, but have gained new skills to enable businesses to pivot in a really commercial way. And we've met lots of people who are just very much stuck in their ways. You might be tech companies that are talking to retailers and it very much comes from a tech space. And I think what Jo and I bring is the fact that we can really understand the transition that those businesses have to go through in order for this to hit right and for it to be utilized going forward because you can have the best tech in the world, but unless you take everybody with you on that journey to really understand it, it's a waste of money.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Yeah, you always translate it in a way and put it into the words that people understand. I think, as you said, it's the transparency piece. I think both of you have talked about that in two different ways, but transparency in retail has not been maybe a word that you would very closely align. And I think it's been quite inherent, and maybe it is partly through some of the leadership that that's sort of been there. And there is definitely something to be said with actually showing a bit of vulnerability, as you've mentioned, actually saying, okay, how do we do this? And I'm not sure about this. And what do you think? And it's just always comes back to that kind of collaboration, and I think we fully support that as well. We just think actually there's so many things like what you're talking about that are just so needed within retail that if we could just let our guard down a little bit, not think that we all have it absolutely figured out and are the best at everything, don't have to share any of the numbers, figures, not needed. I don't need to know what your cost prices are. I don't need to know whether you're up and down or how much money you're spending on things, but there are definite ways where as retail we can all work together to find solutions to things that will all help us all. And if we've all got USP that we've been talking about, it's needed for a brand to survive. If you've all got your own USP, then actually sharing information about actually how to grow your business and how to be more sustainable and how to actually work with some of the government legislation that's coming in, you know, things that have happened in COVID and container ships that have gone crazy or unprecedented things. But we all work together on all these things and we can help to change retail, but you have to work together. And it's really nice to hear that you have got that support or by from like other groups, but actually to find a way to make improvements.

SPEAKER_04 51:36

Yeah, I think there is that challenge that a lot of people are like, we don't want to go there. That's the whole can of ones that we're going to open. And it's but if you don't have transparency, then you can't see where the challenges are and you can't start to address them. And we all know that nobody's perfect and we're not expecting everyone to become perfect overnight. But equally, if you're causing an impact, you should be aware of it, shouldn't you? And you should have a plan on how you rectify it. But equally, I think traditionally the challenge of big retailers is when they see a problem, it's like, take yourself away out of the problem back out of that country back away. Because we can't do that either, because we need to support these people. Again, it comes back to the relationships, doesn't it? So I do really think it really comes back to that. And we talk a lot about personalization with as brands and how they target their customers, but also it's personalization of the brand and their supply base. You have to have those relationships, don't you? You have to know how to work with those people through the highs and the lows. Yeah. Because if you just take the highs, then they're not going to be there to help you through the lows, are they? But in the last 10-15 years, we've seen so many examples of it all falling on the suppliers, yeah, going back right back up the chain. Again, it's how do we approach business differently? Because yes, we need to make a profit, but equally we need to make it work for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

To be to to be around for the long haul, you know, as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think you've given us a quick sneak peek of the tool, and it's an in it's incredible. And I think what's so brilliant about it is the fact that it you can really easily see how seamlessly this could be put into a business. And I think that's exactly what you're what you were saying, Joe, was you've been there, you've done that, you've been in every trade meeting there probably ever was, ever is, ever is gonna be, and you can understand how you can get those people on the journey. When I did some when I worked at MS for a short period of time, we brought on a new PLM system and everyone was just like, oh my god, and all these training sessions and it has to happen, but I feel like with this tool, it's so much it's so seamless. It really is. I think that's so important to get that first fitting in because those people using it day in, day out are going to be the people that are benefiting from it, that are getting so much out of it, and it's really nicely designed as well. You know how some systems are just like, oh my god, what so I go to what bit to do what? That doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_04 53:39

Yeah, we were very much with we're biased, it needs to be simple, it needs to be easy to use, it needs to look nice, nothing too complex. Oh, hate so many spreadsheets to me.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

We can't take full kost for that. We've worked with a lot of wonderful brands who have been very generous with their time and energy with regards to that. Because we Joe and I know what we would like, but equally we want to make sure that is translatable across multiple brands and multiple sizes of brands, large retailer, small retailer, and everything in between. You want to make sure that it's an easy fit for everybody. Yeah, we're really pleased with it, but equally, we can't take all the credit for it. It's been definitely a big job that's across many wonderful people that have helped us and some great small brands, and it isn't just female founders within that. There've been lots of blooming brilliant guys as well. One guy in particular, that no doubt if he listens to this, he'll know exactly who he is. But he's been bloody brilliant. So, yeah, there are some fabulous people that have helped us along the way. But it's really hard though, you know, really carrying on going with that because there is resistance from the industry that, like Joe says, that they don't necessarily want to change. But I think Deborah Meadon said it brilliantly. She was just like, you can carry on if you want with bad business as usual, but we need to transition.

SPEAKER_03 54:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

And that is exactly where a lot of those companies are at the moment, total stale mate with. I just can't move forward. And if they don't move forward, I think Joe and I say they're somewhat dinosaurs, and therefore they won't be with us going forward.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

For sure. Well, it sounds like you've both been on an incredible journey. Could you tell us one of your, I'm sure there's been so many, but one of your proudest moments since launching your business and and obviously creating this tool? Fine, Jay.

SPEAKER_04 55:23

Gosh, I don't think there's so many, aren't there? I think I think probably winning the grant with the European Space Agency was a big moment up there. You know, we'd applied for a few grants and we'd not got a few, and we were like, why did they not understand how important this tool is? We need this for the industry, we need to help us build it. And then suddenly get the support from them. Um which again, just saying European space agency, so many of the retailers are like, oh, this sounds interesting. It opens doors immediately. So that's brilliant. So I'd say that's definitely a bit a big moment for me. What do you think, Joe?

SPEAKER_00 55:49

I think there's been layers. I think there's just even those small moments where the website was just up and running, like for the first time, that we were very much I mean, oh God, we let's say we built a website, we didn't. We had a lovely guy that helped us build our website. He was wonderful. He listened to all our silliness. I'm just really proud of us on a daily basis. The fact that we can go in, that we edit the website, that we write articles, that we publish it, that we do our own social media, that Jay does an amazing monthly update, that we work bloody hard. We were working with small brands. One of the small brands that we're working with at the moment, their sales on the year are phenomenal. They're phenomenal, which I'm super proud of. I'm super proud of that whole team and how they've embraced it. I'm really proud of other teams that we've worked with along the journey. And I'm really proud of the fact that we've kept amazing relationships within the industry that have opened so many doors. I'd say to anyone that's listening to this that are on the start of their journey in fashion buying, really think about how you treat people and how you want to be known because all of that stuff comes back to you with an abundance. The number of doors that we've had open to us just on the back of, oh, it's you guys, yes, of course, coming in, and of course you can do that, and of course you can, which you know is pretty cool. Just don't be silly, never leave everywhere how you want it to be left and treat everybody how you want to be treated. And I really hope that good people win because it feels like in this industry they didn't always, but it feels like that's changing. So, yeah, I I think so many proud moments, but super proud of both of us that we have stuck at it this long as well, Jay, because it isn't easy, is it?

SPEAKER_04 57:31

It isn't easy, yeah. But it's also really rewarding, don't you think, Jimmy? We said we stuck out of those roles. I think actually you have to acknowledge, having been a buyer, just how many different skill sets you have. So think about when you do, it's just what you do, isn't it? And then actually think, oh no, I can do that, I can do this. And then you we used to laugh and say that we were both crapped with IT, and then we both ended up working in in tech for a short period, and then now you can sort our own problems, we can upload stuff to the website. But again, it's stuff like before it'd just be like, Oh, we'll have to speak to IT about that, blah, blah, blah whereas suddenly it's just us, so we have to sort it out. Yeah, but again, it's quite satisfying being, I'm sure you guys find it the same. You have to sort it out for yourself, don't you? And you do. Yeah. And things that you thought you'd perhaps never be able to do, which actually, like, oh, that wasn't as hard as I thought.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what I love so much about what you're doing as well, is, and we've mentioned it a few times, is how you've come from within. And there are lots of tech businesses out there that are amazing, that are coming up with some wonderful tools that will address the problems that they see that there are in retail. But there is nothing better than having first hand knowledge of a problem and finding a solution yourself and then working with those tech teams to then bring it to life and to translate it into the language that it needs to be in. But I think that's one of your the biggest pieces that I think people need to take away from this is how much knowledge and experience you have from being in retail and therefore you are solving a problem that you've actually experienced.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

Yeah. I think I yeah, it's totally your U recipe. And I think that, but that's the same for you guys. You've lived through the industry, you're helping solve a problem, you're helping people transition, you're helping people understand the industry. So that's great. You're so authoritative in your space. But I think for us, it was we felt so passionately that actually what was happening in retail isn't fit for purpose. Therefore, we need to evolve that because I love fashion. I I really miss actually because I try and stick to the rule of five, which Jo always laughs at me and actually she holds me a few times and goes, Is that new?

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Because actually I think I've been I've had it for years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

Vinted does count as well. So yeah, I think I think I'm really good. But anyway, they just sometimes go, is that number four? And I'm like four and a half because actually I'm sharing with my 17 years old. I'm sharing it, yeah. Yeah, but we know it's a real problem. We want the industry to to evolve and fail, but it will not look how it's looked right now. If we were all putting a line in the sand, I a hundred percent think those third party pre-lub sites or whatever, they will be the department stores of the future. They 100% will be. And anyone that doesn't get on board with that now is absolutely missing a trick.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

It just seems bonkers to me. Even when we were at the beginning of this three years ago and chatting to people, when I think at the time vintage was number 11 in UK retailer chart. But uh we were saying, people were saying, Here's my biggest competition. We were going, your product on vintage is your biggest competition because it's undercutting you, it's in great nick. If you're sold out of that must-have, I don't know, the viral spot dress from Nobody's Child or whatever else, I can just get it on vintage. So it's not really out of stock, is it? I am going there. And actually, those people are paying a premium for your product that you have sold through thinking you've done a great job, but they're buying it for there for 20 quid mil because they couldn't get it. Yeah. Who's who's missing the trick that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Yeah, it's incredible to see where to think where retail's going. It really is.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:50

It really is. And there were a few reports out a couple of months ago saying about the drop in profit that retailers are going to see if they don't start taking action. We've got to reduce our carbon emissions, got to stop using sanitary cycle polyester. It's all impact. And again, things that you as as buyers that weren't really part of our role conversation, were they? Okay, but we'll bring it by C, but that's probably pretty much the sum total of how much went into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

If you say the buying though important, though, isn't it? Because it brings the ESG teams together, it brings the finance teams together, and it brings the buying teams together so they can understand actually. You're not just your ESG team sitting there going, I've presented the strategy and fingers crossed everyone's going to implement it. You're hang on about a minute, I can tangibly see that we're going to do that or we're not going to do it, we're going to miss it by a country mile. So, what can we do differently?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

So, I think we please feed it into a budget because that was my frustration. 100%. You've got these goals. Where's that in the budget? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah. There's a good question. Can my KPIs be aligned with my ESG team, which are aligned with my my finance team? Because if you're just telling me to make all the money and then you're telling me, but you bought a product that isn't really sustainable and I can't recycle it. And actually, it's not very ethical what you've just done. You're like, You gave me £2.50 to buy it. I don't know what you wanted me to do. What do you want from it? What was I doing? And it's it's you have to give everyone the whole picture. You're not just giving them that little bit. It's if you said to one of your kids, actually go to the shop and buy me a loaf of bread, but you want some change, they'll buy you the cheapest loaf of bread. But if you said, actually, you know, I'm gluten intolerant, if that bit of bread is actually going to be an issue, then that's no help, is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Yeah, it changes it completely. I think the whole buying role has to change, as you say, like so many more touch points. And I think definitely we kind of alluded to it earlier about how things are changing. There might be some very expensive mistakes. The whole role itself needs to change because while AI can come in and help improve some efficiencies, there are other tasks that the buying team need to take on because you're the experienced one, you're the closest to the product. So while you need the advisory around you, actually the role needs to take a slightly different shape.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

It's exciting though. It is. It's so exciting. What's going to happen the next few years, I think, is brilliant. There's so much opportunity now. Everyone talks about this being an opportunity for AI and the fact that everything's evolving so quickly. That is great. And I do think there will be many people that will do very well out of it, but there will be many people that won't do very well out of it. And I think what we need to do is we need to make sure that we're in this for the long haul and that we're thinking about taking everyone on the journey. And that isn't just about your teams or your businesses. That's we all want a safe place to live, right? And I do mean everybody. So how do we do that in the right way that is good for us all? I think there's too much selfishness going on that we all need to just step back a little bit and have a look at the bigger picture because there is room for everybody. There really is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Yeah. Build a more sustainable future together.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

I think so. I think that would be cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Thank you so much. It's been such a great conversation. I honestly, we could keep talking for ages. But this is probably a good time to kind of to pause and bring it to an end. But we will share everything that you offer with our fashion fix and Oscar Rand. So please check it out if you're interesting. It's a really incredible tool. And yeah, from four experienced buyers, we can tell you it's definitely one that you will enjoy using and will actually help you as building your ranges and driving profit.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Thanks so much, Katie. Really appreciate it. It's so lovely to spend some time with you guys today as well. And equally, if anyone's looking for any help with understanding where they're going on the journey, we'd highly recommend you guys too. You take you know what you're talking about, and your site is blooming brilliant. So very kind of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

That's too kind. I will let's speak soon. And thank you again so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please, please, please like and subscribe and leave a review. And if you already have, thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

We all need a bit of retail therapy, and this is the perfect time for you to offload about that super cringe-worthy story. We would love to hear from you all, your funny stories and experiences, or even any dilemmas. And maybe we can help or at least find someone who can. And don't worry, we will keep these anonymous and remove any names and brands.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

We would also love to hear from you on any topics you would like us to talk about. Please send all of these into buyingandbeyond at gmail.com or drop us a DM via our Instagram page at Buying and Beyond. Kate, are you a drama queen? No. Drama just makes things interesting. That's true. All these thoughts and opinions are our own and based on our own experiences working for a wide variety of retailers. These are all in the hope to entertain and educate and not to reflect negatively on any place we currently or have previously worked.