S10 EP 5 The Stories Shaping Retail with Gabriele Dirvanauskas, Drapers Deputy Editor

Drapers has been the trusted voice of the fashion retail industry for nearly 140 years, connecting leaders, breaking news, and shaping conversations across print, digital, and social. In this episode, we sit down with Gabriele Dirvanauskas, Deputy Editor at Drapers, to get a front-row look at how the publication covers the biggest stories in retail and what's really happening behind the scenes for the people who work in it.

Gabi takes us through her own path into fashion journalism - from a work experience placement at Marks & Spencer's press office, to cutting her teeth at the Sun newspaper, to her current role at Drapers covering everything from leadership shake-ups to shop floor culture. From there, the conversation turns to one of the year's biggest talking points: Drapers' recent salary survey, which has ignited a wider industry conversation about pay, support, and transparency for buyers, merchandisers, and designers alike. We also get into how AI is changing (and not changing) the buying role, and why face-to-face industry events are more important than ever.

Three Key Takeaways

1. Retail buying salaries don't reflect the growing responsibility of the role. Drapers' salary survey found 71.2% of respondents don't think their pay reflects their responsibilities, and only 17.2% believe their salary is fair. As teams shrink and channels multiply (global sourcing, multi-channel selling, social media competition), workloads have grown - but compensation hasn't kept pace.
2. Transparency and support matter as much as pay. Beyond salary, respondents called for clearer pay bands, better maternity conditions, flexible working, and stronger support from leadership. Many buyers feel too intimidated to ask for raises, and businesses often lack transparency about what the next career step actually requires.
3. AI can't replace the human side of buying - but it's reshaping entry-level roles. While AI tools are improving efficiency across retail, we all agree AI cannot replace the judgment, relationships, and hands-on experience buyers bring. The bigger risk is losing entry-level positions, which cuts off the pipeline of new talent learning the ropes.

Drapers are offering our listeners a 30% discount off an annual subscription, use the link below to claim yours: 

https://subscribe.drapersonline.com/dragd30/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hello and welcome to Buying and Beyond, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of retail buying.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

We're Kate and Lynn, and we are talking all things retail buying and beyond with real people in retail. So grab your drink of choice and come and have a giggle with us.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

This episode is sponsored by The Buyers Club, our membership created for buyers by buyers.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

If you work in retail buying, you'll know that this role is unlike any other. It's creative, commercial, fast-moving, and incredibly rewarding. But it can also be high pressure and full on. The Buyers Club exists to support you through it all.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Built from feedback from over 400 retail buyers, it's a dedicated community designed to help you grow, connect, and thrive in your career. Inside you'll find in-person networking events, monthly online catch-ups, career clinics, mentoring and sounding board support, curated trend edits, retail insights, members-only podcast extras, and a few exclusive perks along the way. Because while tools and technology can support your role, nothing replaces community.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

If you want to feel more connected, more confident, and more supported in your buying career, head to our homepage for more information on how to join our club.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

The future of buying isn't just smarter, it's more connected. Now let's get into today's essay.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Today we're joined by one of the most influential voices in fashion retail journalism, Gabrielle Dervinouskis, deputy editor at Drapers. Gabby has spent years reporting on the stories shaping the retail industry, from the biggest brand strategies and leadership changes to emerging consumer trends and the challenges faced by buyers, retailers, and suppliers. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about the biggest issues facing retail right now, what she's seeing from her front row seat covering the industry every day, the stories buyers should be paying attention to, like the most recent pay review investigation, and where she thinks retail's heading next. So hi Gabby, welcome. Hi, thank you so much for having me on. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Hi, we're so excited to have you on and so many questions. So let's dive straight in. So for anybody that doesn't know Drapers, which I'm sure is not that many people because you're incredibly well known. Can you just give us a bit of an overview about Drapers and sort of the role it plays within the fashion industry? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

So Drapers launched around 140 years ago. We'll be celebrating our 140th birthday next year, actually. And it really connects the retail industry with leaders, and we like to keep our readers informed. We like to be at the very kind of crux of breaking news stories, letting people in the industry know just everything about the industry that we can really.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

You know, one of my favourite memories about drapers is joining as a BAA at Accessorize back in 2008, 2009. And one of our responsibilities was to do post. And it wasn't, you know, one of the most glamorous things. You know, I've got a degree and now I'm moving post boxes. But one of the best things was you've got to pick up all the posts, which included the draper subscription. And if you were on post on the day that that came through, you kind of had first dibs on it. And I remember being so enthralled by it. I'd be like, right, I'm having it, I'm taking it home. And you had to sign, you had to sign magazines like in and out. Oh, amazing. Always take it and try and be. I'll be like, please come in on my day of post. Oh, we should have sent you some more issues.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

No, I think everybody has had their post day, so I appreciate that. And we actually do hear that a lot of it, issues being passed around the office and everything. And it's really, always really nice to hear.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

It's exciting. I think for me, it was just like as a graduate, first, you know, sort of fresh into the industry. I was like, wow, look at all the inside knowledge, look at all the inside scoop and the stories that you don't necessarily know. I mean, this was also before websites and e-commerce and everything, you know, it so magazines was the main thing, but I've been used to magazines more like Ms. Oh, magazine, you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah, 70.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

And this was like, wow, this is really insightful and interesting information that actually will really help me in my career as well. You know, if you had an interview, you'd make sure that you'd read through the most recent issue of drapers so you knew what was going on.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Well, that's really lovely to hear because that is our goal. So I'm glad we were able to help in some small way. And that does continue to drive drapers now. So we're very grateful for all of our readers.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

And do you find that you've still got a high sort of subscription model for the print, as well as then having because you've you've now moved towards an online platform?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

So we're, you know, cross-platform 360. So we're across print still, um, monthly issue, um, which is a beautiful, glossy, kind of thick issue that readers get delivered once a month, which is really nice. E-com first, obviously, because it just lets us update as as quickly as we can, and social channels as well. We're driving a lot on uh LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok, even. So that's that that's that will be where you hear our news first.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Well, that's the thing, because the news these days is so quick, isn't it? Like it is, like it's almost instant. There's less of that sort of like time lag, or you know, I guess you've got the investigation pieces, you also have the kind of the interviews with people, but there's news that's happening that you kind of need want to almost be sort of getting out there quite quickly with your take on it, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Oh, absolutely. And do sign up to our breaking news alerts as well, because our news team works very, very hard to deliver them as as quickly as possible. So, yes, get them directly to your phones.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Exciting. Now, for you, before Drapers, you were fashion editor at the Sun newspaper. So you must have always had quite a sort of a keen interest in retail from the start. Like, what sparked that interest? Like, what got you into sort of fashion journalism in the beginning?

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Oh, it's such um I love looking back, I have to say. So I I did a journalism course at university, which was really fun, and then I actually did um work experience at the Marks and Spencer's press office um for six weeks over the summer, I think in my second year.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Um I worked there really close as some of the girls down there. Really?

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Such a nice place to go, and everyone's always it was everybody was so nice, and I'll always have a soft spot for MNS. Um, and then they kind of introduced me to different publications, and from there I went to The Sun as an intern, and eventually they they were good enough to give me a job. Um, and it was just a really brilliant training ground, like uh very fast-paced. You you can kind of do anything, which is what I learned. Brands that I still work with today was really good and really interesting, and just seeing how the industry works really.

unknown 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

And then what gave you kind of that feeling that you wanted to move from something like a kind of, I guess, tabloid, but were you part of the magazine? The the Fab, is it Fabulous?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

So we were so it fabulous is a part, uh we were part of Fabulous Daily at the time, which was the kind of female-oriented spread in the newspaper. Um, but no, I was part of the main newspaper team, so shooting main fashion, doing kind of consumer investigations into fashion businesses, so it gave me a really good understanding of that side of the industry. And then when I joined Draper's, it was again in a fashion editor capacity, so working on our seasonal photo shoots, which were really fun. But then from there I got to really kind of know the you know, the kind of inside of the industry even more. Um, and it was just really interesting. So you you kind of see the fashion side, but also what makes the industry tick and why what happens happens, um, which has been really great to get to know.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

And what are the areas that you focus on most? I mean, for us, it's like anything to do with like buying and merchandising. Like, is it retail shop floors? Is it also um product technologists? Like, do you touch all would you say you touch all areas of retail within drapers?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

We definitely, we definitely try to. So um I think it's been really interesting to get to know the majority of teams really across the industry. So whether it is, I mean, we've looked at things like hiring, you know, shop floor staff before and the kind of ins and outs of that. Um, we have a big focus on leadership as well with our monthly drapers interviews. We um get leading CEOs. So we recently had uh the CEO of Lux experience. Um, I spoke to Mr. Malolo Planick recently. So it's that focus on um leadership, but then also just across the the head office and even shop floor industries, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

And what would you say kind of your expectations were versus maybe the reality of some of these roles? Because I mean, buying, for instance, we talk about it a lot, has this, and this was where we saw it was, it was on a pedestal to us, you know, when we first got into the industry, we're like, oh my goodness, got way to be a buyer. This is so glamorous, and then actually you realise it's been actually quite as glamorous as it looks. I mean, that may be similar for journalism too, but what's your kind of take on, I guess, the roles in retail? Like, what was your sort of view on them and and has that changed, or actually, you know, is it as your expectations were?

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I think um no job is probably as glamorous all the time or 100% of the time as it first seems, definitely. Um, but I think uh it has been good to know the kind of uh behind the scenes, I guess, of the different roles, of the different roles in fashion retail, and that you know, there's definitely a main connection point, I guess, that everybody just works very hard and perhaps needs more support than they sometimes receive, or you know, things like that are quite universal, like people would prefer to have more team members and they do more time in the day. So I think that is something that connects the roles that I've uh kind of investigated recently, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um and so and so what does that sort of typical week look like? I was gonna say day, because but I'm sure it's probably more interesting to see what a week looks like for a deputy editor. What sort of thing goes on?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

So it's very different, which is one of the things I enjoy. So we begin with a daily meeting uh for the editorial team where we decide uh the news to follow up on that day, or if we have any kind of longer lead features we're working on, um we'll focus away on that. And if we're it depends what which time of year it is. So if it's kind of buying season, we'll be off at trade shows as well, just finding great product there to bring to our readers, um, interviewing the buyers there, the brands there as well. If it's you know fashion week season, we'll be covering fashion week trends as well and digesting them for our readers as well. Um so it's really, really varied, or we could be out at events, trying, you know, networking, meeting people, um, speaking to people in the industry. So it's really, really varied, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Super exciting. And then how do you decide what the focus should be? And you know, particularly, you know, these sort of like more kind of investigational or kind of like, you know, finding a bit more of doing a bit more research into things. Like, how do you decide what to focus on and what the industry needs to hear? Is it just keeping your ear close to the ground?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yeah, we like to really hear firsthand what um, you know, what's on the minds of our readership freely. So whether that's um on all of our social channels um or things that we talk about in, you know, when we network, um, we really like to keep our ear kind of close to the ground that way. And there normally is a common thread, maybe, that you know, we'll hear a few different people speaking about um and then we'll decide to follow up on that. You kind of almost just get a sniff for it, you know, almost just like we'll keep hearing about it. We're like, okay, we need to look into this for sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Your ears broke up and you're like, okay, there must be something juicy behind this. It's like that natural sort of almost like instinct, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Absolutely, no, absolutely. And um, I think the more we can get kind of people talking about it as well, about these different um subjects, is yeah, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And how do you sort of what metrics do you use to kind of see success sort of show success of your articles? You know, sort of, I guess in buying, it's very much like we do something, we see sales, and it's like it's very black and white. I guess that's a lot harder. One when it used to be more print focused, I guess on e-coms, you know, sort of online sites now, you've got more, okay. How many clicks have you got? How many likes have you got? You know, is it the conversation that you see? What's what holds more waiting? Is it likes, is it shares, is it comments for you as a we do.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I mean, we do have the usual kind of metrics that I guess um news publications on websites measure, but also I particularly like uh feedback and comments, you know, whether they're LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, or whether they're uh feedback via email, which is always good. It's nice to see that your work is actually reaching people and that it's sparking conversations. So that's personally what I'd value the most, is when you hear different people, you know, it resonating with readers and them perhaps spreading the word or you know, speaking to their colleagues or tagging their friends in it. I think that means quite a lot to us.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

And at the moment, which sort of channel are you finding the most reactive? I guess, because you've got, I guess if we think about the key um channels, you've got like LinkedIn, very much kind of quite professional, you've got maybe Instagram that is, I guess it's a bit more casual, and then you've got TikTok, which is predominantly positioned at a younger audience. Do they digest content differently? And sort of what sort of content do you see performing best in those sort of different channels?

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Definitely. So I'd say LinkedIn is probably our biggest audience kind of driver, um, which is really interesting. And sometimes the feedback we get is very different from what we'd receive on Instagram, for example. But I think Instagram's quite a nice, fast way of reaching people as well, and it just sometimes generates quite good feedback quite quickly because people it's very easy to share stories, people send it to their friends, um, and then we, you know, and that kind of helps us extend our reach as well. TikTok by growing. Um, so we're growing our video content there. Um, and yeah, it's something that we're hoping to drive in the future. But yeah, we we have received quite good feedback there as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Is it more trend based on TikTok and less sort of like serious stories, or is it headlines that still grab people's attention?

SPEAKER_02 14:37

I think headlines, um definitely. So we'd only kind of publish things that we would publish on other platforms, or you know, that are still relevant to our reader base, we wouldn't jump on a trend to publish something for that purpose. Um, but yeah, it's definitely the kind of big big headlines that generate feedback, big brands, big businesses as well that do really well for us. And so it's something that not only perhaps people in the in the industry engage with, but you know, general kind of consumers as we call them too.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, and I think LinkedIn as well is such an interesting uh topic in itself, isn't it? You've seen that platform evolve and develop so rapidly, we so recently into into more of a social space. And you know, it's not just a search for a job site anymore, it really is about opinion, you know, with the sort of the rise of Substack as well. Like how how have you guys sort of pivoted with that that strategy in you know, from a LinkedIn point of view? Have you sort of found yourself found your like sort of um narrative changing a little bit, then it being like a really strict kind of like business site, if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Still, I'd say keep our LinkedIn uh content very kind of you know professional. Uh but uh you know it's a great way to get feedback really quickly. Our LinkedIn polls do really well, and people do leave interesting comments. Um, we try to kind of give more of the story now on LinkedIn as opposed to maybe previously it would have been a headline. Um, but now we try to give readers a bit more to kind of go on and to encourage those clicks as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

I guess the more they kind of have, like when it's just a headline, you don't know, but when you've then also got like a little, maybe a paragraph, a little, it can then spark a little teaser. Yeah, a little teaser of it that then makes make people start to kind of like debate things between themselves and then want to find out more. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

No, exactly. So um it's a really great platform.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Then agree with everything. Or is that something just as a journalist, as retail buyers are, you become particularly resilient because us in a sign-off versus you maybe people that don't agree with something you've written. Like, how do you handle that?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

I think that's okay because we'd never want to stifle anyone who doesn't agree with our opinions anyway. Everyone has the right to say what their, you know, what their opinion is. Um, and if something ignites that passion and interest in a reader, I'd say, great, more for it, please. Um, but we're quite lucky, I don't think we've had anything too too divisive on there just yet. So no censorship.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I think you're right. It's that element of like, well, actually, it's good to start the conversation. And if anything, if it gives you more ideas of other routes to kind of go down and more topics to find out about and investigate, because it's spurred someone to talk about something that maybe wasn't included, or I don't know if it's a for example, talking about pay is always such a big issue. Now, that was something that you most recently um did an article on for retail buyers. And I think that has gone down phenomenally well from buyers. But I have seen people already commenting be like, what about designers? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

And all I do say is keep your eyes peeled to our August issue for for our investigation to designers. Um so we we have heard the call and we are on it. Um brilliant. So no, that's the kind of feedback we love to receive. We're like, okay, great. So this is a part of the industry that we need to look into and you know, highlight as well people's hard work. So it's really good to see that.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

What, if I can ask, what sparked the initial research into buying salaries? What was it that kind of gave you that? What's happening here?

SPEAKER_02 18:23

We have kind of wanted to do a salary survey for a long time, anyway, and there were conversations about you know which part of the industry is maybe, you know, it's worth investigating first. And we just had such good feedback. And I think there are a lot of quite strong feelings and opinions in the buying and merchandising fields. So it was a really, really great place to start. And again, like you say, so designers also ended up answering our survey. You know, people have also been asking to hear about garment technologists as well, which is another thing that we're going to look into. So yeah, it was a really good place to start, and we just hope to extend that work.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, it's fascinating. And do you know what I think it's really opened up the conversation? Um, I I'd say definitely there was a lot of people that I know talking about it. I don't know if you saw the post on Instagram Rhea Cartwright, who was head of buying for Liberty. She did a reel about her salary as a as head of buying and what she was paid. And I think it went viral. And when I say viral, I mean for her terms. She's also a sheer luxe contributor for beauty now. But it was really interesting. She talked about being, I think, around the sort of 70, 80 mark as a head of buying for them. And people in the comments were like, Whoa, this should be a you know, 150k plus job. And I think because her audience is quite wide as well, you know, it's not just often you talk to yourselves within the industry, you know, you're aware of maybe someone else that might be it, but actually thinking about it. And she was like, That's that's insane, you know. Actually, that's a that's really rare. But she was like, But you're so right. But all this she listed out like almost like all of her responsibilities, and people were shocked at the amount that she was being paid for the amount of work that she was doing.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

That's really interesting, and again, it's those kind of conversations that we we love to kind of spark and hear about. Um, no, that's a really good point. I'd be interested to see where so the commentators were they from the UK industry as well, or were they some UK, but I think also some US? Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Can tell us a little bit more about the survey. Is there any sort of snippets of headlines that came out of it that you thought, oh, that's really interesting, and this sort of further research needs to be done into this?

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Oh, definitely. So one of the things that stood out was just the dedication I think people have to their teams and their roles. And again, something that came up a few times was just that kind of love for the industry and love for fashion. I think that makes people stay also on the kind of negative side. So massive, I think it was 71.2% of respondents don't think their salary reflects the responsibility of their roles. And of that, only 17.2% believe that their salaries were fair. So, you know, that's quite a big headline figure to think, you know, people are putting in the extra work and not really receiving compensation that they need to have for it, which was very interesting to hear. Again, everybody was motivated by their teams and the kind of opportunities to learn, but it was just yeah, this I think they need extra support and flexibility is one of the main things that stood out to me.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, yeah, I completely, completely see where that's all come from. We put out a survey out in December, we had 400 buyers come back with what is the you know the the hardest part of your role, and it was lack of support. You know, what what is what is the biggest issue here for retail buying and it is lack of support, you know, overwhelm. Um, the you know, the fact that they have got so much responsibility, so so much work on. I think where teams have maybe got smaller and responsibilities have got bigger because it's not. You know, we had Joe Ingham and Joe Ward on the podcast a couple of weeks ago talking about when they first started in buying and how sort of well they they broke it down in very simple terms, and I don't think retail and fashion has ever been simple, but they broke it down in quite, you know, you buy a product, you put it in front of somebody, they buy it. But actually now there's so many more channels, there's so many more places to source from. You know, they were working with factories based in the UK and they were putting it in stores. Whereas now we we source from all over the globe, we're in competition with retail all over the world, and you put it on multiple channels, you know, it it has become more complex. And I don't wouldn't necessarily say that the salaries have increased to actually acknowledge the extra responsibility and the um extra workload that goes with all of that. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

And um I listened to that episode and it was great. Um, by the way, and I think a main a kind of again, another common thread has been that responsibilities have risen uh while resources have shrunk. So I think that's something that resonates across well, both buyers and merchandises, really, that we've discovered.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, yeah. I think it's gonna be so interesting, um, you know, when uh you b big businesses sort of start to listen to this and how are they gonna how are they gonna make it make changes for these people because they're away from becoming buyers, because it's just becoming so challenging. And you still need them. You need them more than you ever have done before, you know, because it is so challenging to bring in a really good high-selling product with all of the noise, the social media, the competition, like Kate said, the globe, the global challenges. So it's like, you know, have you had any have you had any responses from employers? Or is you know, what do you think that the employees can actually take from this research?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

I think uh they should listen to their teams and the support that they need. I mean, I think, you know, in a perfect world, everybody would have more money in bigger teams. Sometimes that isn't always possible, but it other things are. So whether it's flexible working hours, um, another factor that really came up um was better maternity conditions and maternity pay as well. So that's another way to make you support your teams, um, and also just listen to listen to your teams as well. So one thing that came up were people were too intimidated to ask for pay rises, um, you know, they wanted more support from above as well. And that ranges from, you know, perhaps somebody that isn't very senior all the way up to buying managers and you know, higher that they still want that support from above, um, even from directors. So I'd say yes, if definitely if we can do something with salaries, 100% less, or teams, um, you know, the size of teams, but if not, it's those holistic things around the roles as well. So better conditions, better kind of flexibility um and more support.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah, absolutely. I think I think it's just the onuses on the company now to, I mean, it you like you hit the nail on the head, like you know, it's not it's not a great climate out there at the moment, you know, people aren't seeing like massive year-on-year growth. It is very challenging. But how can they, as a business, think cleverly to support their stuff? Otherwise, what's the future of the business, you know?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Um and a few respondents said, you know, the the future, like are people being as attracted to the roles as they could be, and they kind of see the opportunities for people coming into the industry shrinking, so less perks, so less travel, although I know that is a a job in itself, and you know, and it is hard. Um, less opportunities to network, uh longer hours, more responsibility, perhaps less time to be trained um properly or less time to really master your category, even. Um, but they still they do still think it's an attractive for all to come into. And we obviously want to keep the flag flying.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we constantly talk about that, don't we, Kate, in terms of trying to fight and help support buyers with their campaigns for travel, because you're right, it is a really it sounds glamorous, but it is a really um you know hard part of the role. But without it, you don't move on. You don't move on, and you don't get enriched, and you don't learn, you don't develop, you don't bring on new ideas, new ways of doing things. It is incredibly fundamental to the job of a buyer, and you know, budgets are tight. We are so aware of that, but don't cut it out completely. It is it is just so detrimental to the brand.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Absolutely. Yeah, even things like uh, you know, having those research days as well. So people seeing the value in that as well, and it and and it's not a day out shopping, you know, of the office, it's actually very useful to to your teams and to to the retailer.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Definitely sparking inspiration, sparking ideas, benchmarking, knowing where you sit, um, and being able to feed that all back. And I don't think you can do that from your desk. Yes, so much is online, but no, you can't really get a feel and an understanding unless you're out and about. I totally agree with all of that. And the and and exactly as you said, so much passion for the job. Most buyers love what they do, absolutely love the role. It's just sometimes a lot of the the sort of like the things around it that aren't there to support them actually makes the job feel a lot harder. It feels like it's almost been an elephant in the room for a really long time. And I think almost feeling like if people want to get a pay rise, they either sort of leave and go somewhere else, or they sort of quite you know, there was this trend quiet quitting almost where it's a bit like, well, if you're not going to pay me to do everything, I'll be here, but I'm not really doing it. And actually paying people or making them feel valued, and like you say, it doesn't always have to be like that monetary value, although that of that's prepared. But actually, if there are some holistic bits around it as well, then you know, just feeling valued and feeling wanted and not feeling like you have to leave to get something. I really remember a situation where I had been just wanting either I got a promotion and the salary was going to stay the same because they were gonna promote three of us. That's lovely that we all got it, but because we're all getting it, there's no, there's you know, there's not the same pay increase that there would have been had just one of you done it. But we should just be appreciative that all three of us are. Doesn't feel the same, right? You've got a number in your head as well, and you think you're getting the promotion. And I remember for a while saying, okay, look, but I just I just would really appreciate a bit more. And you're not asking for much, you know, a couple of a couple of grand on an annual salary really doesn't break down to that much. And uh I really bury my soul here, but I really remember this. I feel like this is a good opportunity because I'm sure there's so many other people that have been through similar. And and um I went through probably a good sort of like nearly six, I think six to twelve months of a bit of a okay, well, and checking in, one-to-one, it came to the PDP, and I was like, look, I've been all I want is a couple of extra, like no pay increase this year, fine as a blanket, because you know, but I'm really looking for something, nothing. So I left. I handed on my notice and I went somewhere else, and then I got a call three months later asking me to return and offering me 15 grand to be higher to return to the same role. Did you go back? No, I didn't I didn't, I didn't. I'd found a role that had um was giving me a good jump because that's the thing. Often you have to go external if you want to see something fairly substantial, and it was just like it was too late. I'd I'd done my notice period, which was quite long, I'd started the new role, I was a month into the new role, and then I come back, and I was like, we could have done this five months ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, we could have done this a year ago, and do you know what? I would have given you my all. I would have given you so much, and I just think that's really interesting. Sort of, oh, actually, do you want to come back? And we will oh, we've managed to find the money. Oh, what did you do? Did you drag dig and find a treasure chest? Like, yeah, well, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

No, maybe they did get their shovels out. Um, but that's really interesting because it could have saved everyone a lot of a lot of probably stress and a lot of time and a lot of work in that situation. They'd have had given you what you first asked for, Katie. So um, that's a real time. And they look, they ended up losing out on your talent.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

So more for them again. Well, exactly. Exactly. You know, if you just it's not a huge amount to just, you know, a little bit more, just to keep everybody happy, motivated, just think what they will give you because buyers, as we know, are passionate people, we love what we do, and we will go above and beyond. And even just talking about trips earlier and how you know they seem glamorous, but they're not because they are. There are hard work.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Fully understand. No, absolutely. And then again, some of our respondents to the survey said, or you know, they've been offered a promotion, and the extra responsibility absolutely is not worth the extra £2,000, which is an extra probably what, £120 a month, you know, that they'd uh that they'd end up with. So it's it's yeah, it's it's very difficult to balance, I think.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

It is, it is, and I just think it's such a we're such a strong workforce, um, incredibly resilient and um very, very hard working. And I just think, yeah, not just buyers, merchandisers too, designers are here, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

We heard them, we heard them out. No, absolutely, and um also very integral and vital to a to a retailer as well. And I think everybody should get the recognition that they deserve.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yeah, and it's just about having the transparency as well, because a lot of businesses aren't transparent with their pay break pay brackets. And I think if even if just staff know about that, then it makes it sort of easier to understand what the next level is, what you need to work towards, etc. etc. Even just having that is a start, isn't it? And a lot of a lot of businesses aren't sort of paying fairly around the room as well. So it's I think if a if a retailer is going through that with their workforce, that's where they need to start, really.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Absolutely. Transparency, that's another thing that a lot of respondents called for. They um one of our questions was, you know, do you feel like there is a fairest distinction between the role above and the low uh the role below? And some had no idea. So, you know, just having that kind of transparency would be very helpful. Like you said, they'll they'll know what to aim for and what their responsibility should be to get to that next step.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Yeah, yeah. And I think at the moment it is almost like hidden behind this sort of you negotiate, everybody negotiates a bit. Um, but I also think there's this almost this thought that like as a buyer, you're a good negotiator, and often you can be for a product because emotion's not involved. And I think that can be a hard thing as well, actually. Like, why should you just because you're good at negotiating for yourself? And I mean, we're not even gonna get into the you know, gender pay differences and the way that they end up. That's a whole other feature, a whole other issue. Yeah, but you know, there is that how well can you negotiate, and almost that expectation as well that um when you, you know, as being someone that's been in a position offering someone a job, you know, you've got a bracket that you've been given from HR and you go in low and you expect them to negotiate, and if they don't, so it's like also knowing as either know it either that the negotiation thing isn't a thing because it's within a bracket, or actually buyers be savvy because they're going to expect you to negotiate and there may still be room on the table, you know, room on the table, money on the table there. And I don't think that people sometimes think that.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Absolutely, and I think um, you know, should always kind of push as much as you can, I guess, because sometimes there is that opportunity. But then again, I don't think the owners should always be on the interviewee, so to say, you know, to fight that battle because I don't know, but the business should be a bit more helpful and willing as well, which isn't always taken, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Completely agree. And especially as we've said, with all that workload you've got, the last thing you want to do to add to your to-do list is negotiate on the job that I've been on when I've already worked bloody hard. I know, exactly. It's crazy. We've talked about it a little bit through the years about how the role of a retail buyer is probably going to change, and I think it needs to change. Um, one, because you cannot continue to have all of this responsibility and more and more and more, um, but also with the raise of rise of AI and how that's going to potentially impact retail. And I don't believe that removing the BAA role to replace it with AI is the right thing to do at all. Um, because I think you you lose that entry level, you use the lose the people that come in with the most amount of um thirst, and you know, eager to learn and to do more and to find out and new ideas, new ways of you know, trying things, and just really keen people that come in at entry. And I think if you remove that and you come in at a later level, the expectations are extremely high without learning anything on the job. So I think all of this sort of you know, looking at salaries and looking at what the role is currently and what the role is going to be is all so important.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

No, definitely. And AI is another thing that came up um in the survey. So, and even when I went on to talk to designers, it, you know, it can challenge those entry-level positions. But like you said, Katie, I don't think um it could ever, ever replace that role at all. Um, but it's just, you know, some teams use it as a way of making their processes more efficient. Um, and a few respondents even said like senior leaders need to recognize that AI will never replace the kind of hard work of the hard work of buying teams, and that needs to be recognised.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

You still need someone to initiate it and you still need someone to make a decision. And also, AI is not that reliable. I mean, just hearing people that are, you know, just using the the general platforms that are available for everybody on a day-to-day, like ChatGPT and Claude, you know, three months ago Claude was the big one. Now suddenly people are saying, oh, actually, Claude's not being um isn't quite as good. It's hallucinating a lot, you're actually getting a lot of incorrect things to or actually you should be using ChatGPT. Six months ago, it was all about Chat GPT. So you're going from one thing to another, and um, and I totally agree with the efficiencies, but uh, I think it can really, really help. And I think it's really interesting each week to be hearing about retailers that are bringing in, you know, new new platforms to help them to improve certain processes, but you're still always going to have to have somebody that's overseeing it all. I thought it was quite interesting actually. It was ASOS have brought in a couple of of their sort of leadership from Amazon over to kind of like head up, is it their global trading? Whereas you've got the very group that are in the same week the announcing that they are launching. Yes. And I was like, that's really fascinating. That you've got two really large retailers there, one building a team of people and really talking about the leadership team that are going to be guiding the pricing, and the other one saying we've got a great tool.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

And I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the tool, but um, you know, who's going to be leading that tool and uh making sure that people I think are always at the you know, at the the heart of it all.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Absolutely. You always need that human being, that way of experience, um, to over to oversee, you know, that tool and the output. And hopefully the industry will not kind of back away from that.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. And I think, you know, I think that's where we line up really nicely in the in the sense that we've talked a lot about our events that we're running and you guys run events as well. That whole events piece is going to become so crucial now, isn't it? With um with people sort of getting that um face-to-face fatigue and you know, like it is working from home more, the AI piece, you know, events are just gonna be that sort of real, real special space for people. And um, yeah, can't we can't champion that enough. And I think that it need the door needs to be kicked wide open to you know, talking about how we collaborate more and how you know retailers talk to retailers. We were talking to someone the other day, weren't we, Kate, about how at the senior levels, the senior suite, it's like they are talking to each other, they're going for dinner, they're getting they they are they they are talking about what's going on in their retail environments, obviously, and they're not sharing anything confidential. But why why is that not happening a bit further down? And I think that that would really help with this sort of disparity in pay and and um you know, talking about when people are feeling unsupported. That would just really make people feel a bit more uplifted with that. So um it should be interesting to know where you guys are taking your events. I know that you've just had the footwear um awards, which I hope went really well.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Um that was a great evening, very great evening. Um, but no, absolutely Drapers, um, one of our focal points is uh our conferences and awards, uh award shows and industry dinners, um, where we really pride ourselves on kind of uniting retailers um from all uh kind of specialisms and seniority levels. So our next event will be the Drapers Inner Circle Summit. It's on the 15th of October, kind of senior C-suite um CEO level. Um it's a great four-day conference talking about everything that's kind of impacting retailers now, so different leadership styles, um, you know, challenging trading conditions. Um, we have a panel on uh fashion brand founders as well about how people can get that step up into the industry as well. Um, and the feedback we receive is always that it's really great to have that platform for people to actually meet face to face, and because I think everybody's going through the same challenges, um, and it gives people an opportunity to really talk to their peers about it and just come away with some ideas as well and some learnings, which I think is really valuable for their teams.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, and keep people connected, and that's one of the key, isn't it? It's like being connected so you can keep that any and that enthusiasm for everything because that is what energizes you, and keeping that connection because just referring back to the AI bit, you know, you're selling to humans, your customers are humans. So there needs to be something human there, and a bit like these like meeting with people, you've got to have that connection and to just feel supported and like you're not the only one feeling something. And actually, is there a way that you can all come together to to find a solution?

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Definitely, definitely. And um, again, I think it's just a really great kind of opportunity to have people from the retail and just remute and discuss, discuss what they're going through. And I think we all find that they're going through the same thing, um, and hopefully can come away from the R events with a few ideas and a few things to take back to their teams as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Yeah, exactly. Well, we are so um grateful for Drapers to sort of, you know, bringing this conversation to light with your platform that you have. But, you know, and you guys have been going for well over a century now, and you know, it's it's a really respectable place for us to be having this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And handling it so sort of like balanced and not as kind of emotionally involved as as we are. I think sort of being almost like a uh mediator, you know, this sort of an independent body that's looking into it rather than retailer specific or buyers who are, you know, passionate.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

So so with that in mind, why do you think that it's remained such an important voice for fashion?

SPEAKER_02 41:56

I don't think there is anybody else out there that does what we do or Drapers does and has the type of access that we have as well. I think we're trusted by senior leaders and the industry as a whole. So that gives us a really nice, unique position. And I hope you know we're celebrating 140 years next year and we'll be running for a long time yet, and we are just keeping the publication and the brand safe for now.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

That's amazing. I would have loved to see some archived issues way back when, see what, see how how things have changed. And I'm sure you must have an archive. Do you ever sort of resurface anything from we do, we do?

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Well, plans are in progress for next year, for next summer, for 140 years. So we'll be definitely delving into our very rich archive for that.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Amazing, brilliant. So, lastly, what is what's the future for for drapers? Where where do you guys see where do you guys see yourself in 10 years' time? No, that's a really horrible interview question, isn't it? What what's the future? What's the future for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 42:53

I think to just keep connecting the industry, you know, across different brands, retailers, keep kind of growing our reach as well. Um, social platforms, I think, will help a lot of that keep growing our kind of impact as well. So a lot, a lot of plans for growth, I think, and just harnessing the different platforms, growing our events as well, um, different, you know, uniting different, I guess, factions of the industry is one of our goals.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Fantastic, brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us, Gabby. It's been absolutely wonderful to have you and to go into the industry and the landscape at the moment. Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Thank you so much for having me. Um, it was a great opportunity to get to know you guys better. And if people are interested, then please do subscribe, or add a bit of an offer into the show notes if that's okay, and just keep keep reading. So thank you for your support as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Definitely would encourage you all to yeah, to take a look at the latest issues of Drapers and yeah, sign up online if you can. So check out the discount code in the show notes. And thank you again, Gabby. Thanks so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please, please, please like and subscribe and leave a review. And if you already have, thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

We all need a bit of retail therapy, and this is the perfect time for you to offload about that super cringe-worthy story. We would love to hear from you all, your funny stories and experiences, or even any dilemmas. And maybe we can help or at least find someone who can. And don't worry, we will keep these anonymous and remove any names and brands.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

We would also love to hear from you on any topics you would like us to talk about. Please send all of these into buyingandbeyond at gmail.com or drop us a DM for our Instagram page at Buying and Beyond. Drama just makes things interesting. That's true. All these thoughts and opinions are our own, and based on our own experiences working for a wide variety of retailers. These are all in the hope to entertain and educate and not to reflect negatively on any place we currently or have previously worked.