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The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Welcome to The Empowered Parent Podcast.
This podcast is a space for parents to learn, reflect, and grow.
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We’ve had wonderful conversations with experts, parents, and professionals - including speakers from the Neurodivergence Wellbeing Conference, and a special series following one mum’s journey in unschooling her child.
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The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Episode 30: Dr. Karen Stagnitti (Children's Play Expert) - Unleashing the Transformative Power of Play
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Apologies for the audio - Karen was in a remote area with a challenging wireless connection. Just listen past that - the content Karen provides is amazing!
Discover the transformative power of play with our special guest, Dr. Karen Stagnitti, an internationally recognized expert in children's play. In this episode, Dr. Stagnitti delves into the essence of play, defining it as spontaneous, joyful activities that engage a child's entire body and imagination. She reveals why pretend play is crucial for developing literacy, creativity, problem-solving, and social skills, offering reassurance to parents that these abilities can be nurtured. By observing and following their child's lead in play, parents can foster a safe environment, encouraging open communication and emotional security.
https://www.learntoplayevents.com/product/explaining-pretend-play-for-parents-and-carers-2/
https://www.routledge.com/Storying-Beyond-Social-Difficulties-with-Neuro-Diverse-Adolescents-The-Imagine-Create-Belong-Social-Development-Programme/Goldingay-Stagnitti-Dean-Robertson-Davidson-Francis/p/book/9780367237042
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https://www.learntoplayevents.com/product/learning-through-play-in-the-primary-school-the-why-and-the-how-for-teachers-and-school-leaders/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
The Importance and Complexity of Play
Speaker 1Hi, dr Karen Stagnitti, welcome to the Empowered Parent Podcast. I'm so excited to have you as a guest on the podcast because your name is synonymous with play. You are an Emeritus Professor at the School of Health and Social Development at Deakin University in Geelong, victoria, and you've worked with children and families in early childhood intervention for 43 years. You have researched children's play since 1991 and trained so many therapists, educators and others in how to assess and support children to develop play, including myself. You were trained as an occupational therapist and you are now a researcher and have been invited to present your work about play in Canada, united Kingdom, switzerland, japan, singapore, croatia, romania, chile and Italy.
Speaker 1Karen, you have over 115 papers published in peer journals, 30 book chapters and you have written or edited eight books, all about play. We will talk more about your research interest areas later on in the show, but for now, I want to welcome you and thank you so much for carving out some time for the parents and community who are listening today to share your knowledge, skills, expertise and passion with us around play. So, karen, let's get started. Let's get to the call. The obvious question what is play?
Speaker 2Oh, that's such a good question, dana, and it is an honor to be um on the podcast with you. Um, so what is play? This is a question people still ask today. Uh, true, play is when a child spontaneously, with pleasure and joy, engages in an activity that they can use their whole body, in, that they can challenge themselves in their thinking and their problem solving. And a lot of the play definitions say that play goes beyond the literal. So children can have adventures and they can take themselves into their imagination and their thoughts and they, within that they can try different things, they can have roles of different people, they can understand their world a lot better and they also understand who they are a lot better. So their own story. Children often play out in their play what they do in their own life. So that helps them understand their own story, their autobiographical narrative.
Speaker 1I love that. So you're saying that it helps understand their own story. So is that why play is important? And what about pretend play? Is that more important than other type of play?
Speaker 2So well, let's start with your second question. So I think all types of play are important because children, at different times of their life and experiences, may need like the calming of sensory motor play, like just running their hands through the sand. Pretend play is one of the last types of play to develop. It doesn't start for the second year of life and by preschool it is a predominant form of play. So pretend play is really important for literacy because children tell stories in pretend play. Children play at roles in pretend play. It is thinking play. Pretend play is thinking play.
Speaker 2So children can be creative, they can problem solve. Children can be creative. They can problem solve. They can work on problems. They can, as I said, be a role of someone they've seen in their society. They also include toy characters that can be part of the play and they have what I see as logical, sequential thinking, so they can play certainly by four. They can play an idea out over an hour or two and probably several days in a week. So they're really thinking through things and certainly at four children add problems into the play because it makes it a lot more interesting for them and also it challenges them intellectually and also it challenges them intellectually. So the more complex the problem they put in the play, the more you know that child has capacity to think through and solve problems.
Speaker 2Why play is important? It's really important because researchers have found over the years, if children have rich play in their childhood, they are better at coping with stresses when they're an adult and they're better at adapting and coping with problems that arise in their adult life. Children who play more socially and it's better for their social and emotional wellbeing there's a beautiful YouTube by Peter Gray and he talks about animals who don't play find that when they're adult animals that they have social and emotional difficulties and they really can't join in a group. And for children it's the same, for human children Also. Children try out different problems and they try out different thinking and they learn how to negotiate and cooperate with with others and what what they need to do to join in the play, to continue the play. And also, children self-regulate when they're playing with other children. So they learn about their own emotions and they learn to control their own emotions, because if they want to keep playing with a friend, then they have to make sure that themselves are aware of what their other friend is thinking and what their other friend is doing and also to to adjust themselves to that so they can sustain the play for a longer period of time.
Speaker 2So it is is pretty. It doesn't look important. Play doesn't look important and often when I'm talking to parents I'll say it doesn't. It doesn't important, but there are so many skills in play and it's pretty critical and we know children who haven't had the opportunity to play or have had interruptions to play in childhood really are not coping as adults and there's a lot more mental health issues for children who've, for adults who have had stressful times as children and not not really played gosh, that's so interesting and I'm just thinking what if a child is now four or five years of age and they are not, uh, playing um, using pretend play um, and I could?
Speaker 1I could just imagine a parent might be listening and thinking oh wow, my child's not going to be socially, emotionally regulated, their cognition's not going to be developed. What could you say to a parent listening and thinking that in this moment?
Speaker 2Well, pretend play is an ability, so that means that we can build that ability. We know now how to build that ability in play, and children have a range of ability in pretend play. You have some children who are amazing and some children who like to follow others, but they understand the play and they know what's going on. And then some children who are just bewildered and have no idea what other children are doing. So for children who are quite bewildered and not sure, we know how to work beside those children and co-play with them and build their own ability in pretend play. And with those children too, we'll be doing like sensory motor play. We'll be doing some pretend play. We'll be doing some motor play to help them make links between the different levels of complexity in play. So pretend play really is complex. It's very complex ability because a lot happens when children engage in pretend play.
Speaker 2But children, you can build this ability and I had a lot of myths about play when I started really looking at it and just watching children play and understanding what they were doing blew a lot of those myths out of the water and one of them was that it's just this natural thing that develops.
Speaker 2Well, it is with some children, but it is an ability and so you can hone that ability, or you can block that ability as well by a child's circumstances, but you can also enhance that ability and build that ability so that children and what I really enjoy doing working with children is, as they build their playability, they can then look at what other children are playing and they can understand then what other children are doing. So they know then that while they may not understand everything about the play, they know that if I run through the middle of what those children are doing, I shouldn't do that because something's happening, and I'm not sure what, but I know that something's happening within that play scene. So often you might get children then stopping and watching and having a good look, or being invited into the play and then watching what the other children are doing as they engage with other children in the play.
Speaker 1And I've seen children, especially children that are still in their sensory motor development stage, that they might take a bluey plush doll and put that bluey on a swing because they know bluey, they've seen bluey on the screen. Is that also okay to encourage, you know, children to play out meaningful events that they have seen before, maybe on TV or, you know, in the park?
Speaker 2Yes, absolutely, because that's their interest and that's the hook. And for children who really struggle with play, I'm looking for what will hook them in and what will really catch their interest. And it's so lovely that Bluey's such a. You know most children know Bluey. So putting Bluey on the swing and giving Bluey a swing, you can go besides a child while they're doing that and you can talk for Bluey really going. This is fun. Bluey's having a good time. So you're bringing Bluey alive, you're giving Bluey some characteristics and maybe even having Bluey talk back to your child and having a short conversation so the child understands that. You know there's something bigger happening than just this toy sitting on a swing. But the fact the child has put Bluey on the swing and started to swing it means the child is understanding and transferring what they've seen in a cartoon and going. Well, bluey does this. And then you could have Bluey do something else, like go for a walk or play hide and seek, for example um, or sit with you at the dinner table and have his own plate.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, that's right.
Observing and Encouraging Child's Play
Speaker 2I know, I know it's like having another child, but it's um, but it is also fun. So if you can find that bit of fun in yourself just on that, why I had my girls are 18 months apart and when, um, my girl was about, she was about oh, she must have been 18 months too and she saw I had a baby doll from when I was a child and she grabbed this baby doll and that was her baby, because her little sister at the time was a little baby. So she had her baby and I had my baby. And then one day, a few months later, she walked up to me and just tossed literally tossed the doll back at me and said here you can have it back again. And I realized her little sister when she did this. Her little sister was walking and starting to talk, so she didn't need to have her own baby anymore because she was starting to realise she had someone she could play with.
Speaker 2So having a character, a toy character, and seeing that character as alive and doing things is also an important skill in play. That character as alive and doing things is also an important skill in play. So it's understanding that other people can think different things to you and do different things to you. So I was working with a little boy once and he was feeding a doll and he had the doll going no, no, no, and so the child was arguing with the doll about having something to eat. So that showed this child was understanding that you know, other people can have different thoughts to them and you've got to negotiate a little bit. So I think he finally talked the doll into having something to eat. So it's a really interesting. It's play is just so interesting to watch and see what children do yeah, and I love, I love what you're saying.
Speaker 1It's basically, you know, observing and following their lead, right? So rather than imposing our idea onto the child and forcing them to be interested in something that we're interested in, having a look and seeing what the child's interested in and then being playful with that, yes, would that be right yeah, yes, that's right, and children respond to that.
Speaker 2You know they um, and sometimes children don't talk at the beginning either, you know they're just interested in looking at some toys or manipulating some things. And just sitting beside a child and being quiet and just watching and maybe manipulating some things too is, you know, it helps a child relax and feel comfortable and, like you know, no one's expecting them to do anything, and I often find children, you know, slowly start to talk and slowly start to share things with you, and responding like that is really gently engaging with children and it also helps them feel safe, and if they feel safe, they're more likely to want to play and want to be interested in what you're doing. So, yeah, exactly, dana, that's just a perfect way to go.
Speaker 1And Karen, what were your favourite play activities as a child and have you always been interested in play?
Speaker 2Well, yeah, I have, because even as an undergraduate, in reflecting back, I was the only book I probably read all the way through several times in my undergraduate was a book on play. So I think there's been an interest there. And I grew up in a street with 42 other children, so we were always in the street, going from you know house to house, seeing what we were doing. So I made mud pies. I remember making mud pies and I remember trying them and was horrified at how disgusted they tasted, because I thought they looked good but they didn't taste any good. And then over the road there was a big mulberry tree.
Speaker 2So I remember spending a day in the mulberry tree and I wore a little white nurse's uniform over there and I came back with a purple dress. We played spy games, you know where you've got to try and out with the other kids and see if you can get into their special camp before they get into yours. So lots of variety and the freedom when I was growing up the freedom to move around the streets and go from house to house, as most of the kids did in our street, and riding bikes did lots of riding bikes and having races yeah, so how has play changed in our society?
The Impact of Digital Play
Speaker 1and I think you know I'm really interested over the last 10 or 15 years, especially with the introduction of technology and children having you know what I perceive to be so many extracurricular activities to attend outside of school hours.
Speaker 2Yes, so I have a play assessment called a Child Initiator Pretend Play Assessment and we've been, and that has norms to it. So it's got over 600 children in there showing you know the range of playability and even using that as recently as 2020. Their children there are really amazing players even today, even though we've got so many different technologies. Um, technologies, the whole area of technology and screens really can impact on play. If a child predominantly that's all they do and just talking to teachers they talk about children really don't know how to play and their language is down or socially they may not be quite aware of how to play with other children, because there's a lot of research now on, particularly since technology is mobile, particularly with our mobile phones and ipads, so it's sort of ubiquitous, like it's everywhere and for children. For technology to be effective for inner child's development, parents and other adults need to co-view what the child is doing on that screen. Otherwise, if their child is just left on a screen and left to their own devices, they're not talking, so they're not talking, so they're not developing language as much and they're also not socially interacting with others. So the I think, and so what is recently come into the vernacular is digital play, so now there are articles on digital play. So digital play is where a child has taken technology. Well, there's different ways to interpret it, but the researchers I know have interpreted as on digital play.
Speaker 2So digital play is where a child has taken technology. Well, there's different ways to interpret it, but the researchers I know have interpreted as children now put the technology in their play. So now they might have a block of wood that's going to be a fire zone. They might make the internet. They might have, you know, in their play kitchen. They might just talk to the fridge to see what they need to get shopping, you know. So that type of technology put into their play. Or they might make scanners. I have a video of a school where they had they're working out, if the river's going to flood, what are we going to do? And a little boy made a scanner. So the scanner was going to pick up whether the water level was rising in the river.
Speaker 2So children yes, so I thought that would be very useful to have that. So children with digital play are putting into their play the technology they see around them in the world today, and it's interesting because for them to do that, they're using a play skill called object substitution, where you take an object like a box or a stick, or a piece of Lego, or you know a piece of paper even, and they impose a meaning on that and they make that something completely different, Like the flood scanner, for example. That was pieces of Lego that the child had made. It wasn't actually a thing in the Lego. Or you might have, you know, a phone made out of a block, or you might have a computer made out of a cardboard box, or you might have the internet with all these strings connecting you know the iPad and all that sort of thing up.
Speaker 2So children have the need to play and they still do play. But there are children, I guess, the big impact of technology. If children spend a lot more time on technology than they do, moving their body and interacting with others and playing with others, then you can really see the impact in terms of lower language skill as well as lower social skill, and there was a big study just this year, earlier this year, carried out in Adelaide, and they found the same. They found those findings as well, as well as other people in other countries. You know, including Turkey and the US and Canada, that children need to play and if they spend too much time on technology. We're finding the same results if the technology is not supported, with an adult talking to the child while they're on the technology, or if they're just left to do it and the other thing. I'm sorry if I'm raving on too much but it's so interesting, go on.
Speaker 2The other thing, the other problem with technology is if and I understand parents doing this is if, to settle a child, the parent would give a phone or an iPad to a child every time they're upset to calm them down, and that's every time they're upset.
Speaker 2And the research now is finding that for those children, their ability to self-soothe and to regulate themselves and their own emotions does not get any better as they get older, and so they're reliant on this external factor to come in and help them settle. Now, using technology every now and then and randomly, you know, like when you're in the car, driving or when you're waiting at a restaurant, for example, you know using technology in those sorts of situations doesn't seem to have a long-term effect. That's negative. But if you use it all the time to settle your child and the child is not learning how to control their own emotions, then that is a problem. Then that's when technology becomes a problem. So I guess, diana, the children still have complex play, but technology can decrease that ability. If children spend too much time or a lot of time on there and not enough time playing with others and, you know, experimenting and exploring their world, and also if technology is used to calm children all the time I mean every single time and children aren't learning to self-regulate.
Speaker 1Right or to soothe right.
Speaker 1They just don't know how to self-soothe and they think that technology is the soother and not a person yes, yes, that's right, yeah, that's right um, I, I just um, I'm just reflecting on what you you were saying about, um, technology, um, that the parent does with the child, and I know when I was in speech school there was a lot of education around reading with children, looking at readers with your child, looking at the picture books with your child, commenting on the picture books with your child, but there really hasn't been that sort of campaign around technology and children.
Speaker 2No, there hasn't, it's in the literature, but again it that sort of campaign around technology and children. No, there hasn't, it's in the literature, but again it's sort of literature that hasn't really hit the mainstream. And sitting with an e-book and doing all the things you said, doing that with an e-book or doing that with a real book are pretty similar in terms of a child's attention with a real book, are pretty similar in terms of a child's attention. The only thing is if the e-book or if the iPad has those rewards you know, when you get stars flicking everywhere as a reward or you get these little interruptions to concentration, they're finding now with the research that that interrupts a child's concentration, so it doesn't really help learning.
Speaker 2And the other thing, as you would know, is that to build language and social understanding you need that two-way, reciprocal, non-interrupted times with a child where you're having a conversation or you know you're talking about the book and it's uninterrupted time. It's time when you're having this conversation or you know you're talking about the book and and it's it's uninterrupted time. It's time when, when you're having this two-way conversation and, uh, some of the technology is built to interrupt that because they want kids to stay on the technology for longer. So you've just got to be careful what technology you have really and using it.
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely so, karen. Are all parents equipped to support their children's play development?
Speaker 2I think for parents who love their children and want the best for their children, which is most of the parents I've worked with then yes, and some parents need encouragement around their abilities. You know parents everyone's different, so some parents have had a lot of ability but they didn't think they had any. So it was supporting the parent and building parents' confidence in the skills that they had. Also that support for and also knowledge. I really like to build parents' knowledge around play and what children are actually doing and what skills they're using when they're playing. And I think when parents understand that, they have a better appreciation for the value of play and also they start understanding their own children's play a lot better and what's happening in their own children's play. So for the vast majority of parents, yes, they are certainly able to support their child's play development.
Speaker 1And have you had any parents say to you I don't know how to play, and you know I've never had this when I was a child. What could be something that we could help parents with as therapists when they, you know, say something like that to us?
Speaker 2um, I yes, I've had parents say I've had parents say that to me too or I'm not really good at playing um, and they're sitting on the floor with me and they're doing some beautiful stuff with their child. So I'll usually point out and go well, you, you know the child did this and you did that and now they're doing this, so so you know what what you're doing is. Is um really supporting what your child's doing? I also, when I'm working with families, I always love to have the parent in the room with me, and some parents just wanted to watch. Some parents wanted to be on the floor playing from the beginning. Some parents wanted to join but weren't sure how to. So I'd make sure we had activities where they could come in and be invited by their child to come in.
Speaker 2So I've lost my train of thought now, I think. So what I remember now is that I have had a lot of parents say to me over the years watching you play with my child has really been helpful. Just to see my child smile and engage and to see them do things I haven't seen them do at home and to play. It's been really helpful just to watch you and to watch you know the things that you do. So I think I had underappreciated that for a long time, but I've just had too many parents say that to me over the years. So you, modelling to the parent, you know the sorts of things you can do and seeing that child smile and laugh and engage, I've had quite a few parents say that was really helpful.
Enhancing Play Skills Through Interaction
Speaker 2But also showing, uh, yeah, I think just showing the parents the types of things that you can do with a child and modeling you know, just just showing them the sorts of play activities, and children respond and they'll, they'll, um, let you know if, if you know, they've got a better idea. They they usually do have a better idea of what to do or another way to use a toy. So I think I think the main thing is that parents just relax and and see this as an opportunity for them to engage with their child and get to know their child in a you know, a deeper way as well, as if they haven't played themselves as a child. I know parents where that's been the case have been quite anxious, so I reassure them around. Just, you know, just being there and sitting on the floor with a child sometimes is all a child really wants, because they'll be showing parents things to do, or the parent you know can move toys around and the child can join them, and then you end up being playing before you even know it. Really.
Speaker 1Have you ever had parents take over the play because they're so enthusiastic?
Speaker 2Yes, yes, yes, and with those parents I've just had to say, whoa, we need to slow down a bit, because often the child is still thinking, or still, you know, thinking about the play. And if we rush the child too much when they're learning how to play, they get a little bit overwhelmed and then they'll disengage and you know they won't be happy. So so, yeah, I have, I have had that, I'm great, I mean, it's great. Parents are enthusiastic. But but if it's, if their child is being overwhelmed, I'll just say, okay, let's just wait a minute and just be quiet for a minute, because I think your child is thinking, needs to think a little bit more about the play and where it's going to go.
Speaker 2And then I say to them if we go too fast, you know the child will be overwhelmed and won't be able to think very clearly. And then you know play will be too hard and they'll they'll want to stop. So we really need to go with the child and respond to them and go to their pace. And and I think about it as if, you know, when we're ourselves, uh, um, are learning a new skill, like, like when you're starting to drive, you know, just going around the block can be very overwhelming because you've got to think of so many things that are coming. So you just do a little bit and then you do a bit more, and the more you do it, the more you can cope with more of the complexity around driving to the point where you can go on a highway with trucks and things, which too scary when you, when you begin to play. Well, sorry, drive for example, when you start.
Speaker 1Well, I think driving is play for some people, karen yes, yes.
Speaker 2So you go slow and and you go a little bit at a time. And it's the same with children who find play difficult. We start where they are. We start where their play skills are. All children have play skills. We just got to work out what they are and where they are. And then we start there, hook them in, think about their interests and then slowly add more to the play as uh as they're able to cope with it. And it's the same when parents feel overwhelmed too. Just stepping them through, sitting back and just watching sometimes can be really helpful, because that helps you think about what you've been watching as well.
Speaker 1And where you can intervene right, where you can help. Karen, what about? Some parents might be listening and going, oh, play, yep. Um, I better think about what you know. I'm going to go and review the my child's toys and maybe I need to get more toys. What can you? Can you talk to us about toys? What would be some of the essentials that, um, parents could have at home to support their child's play?
Speaker 2yeah, yes, okay, because um, too many toys can be overwhelming even for really good players. So, um, the the key toys that I would have objects, um unstructured objects like boxes, bits of cloth. You know bits of stick um different shaped boxes cloth. You know bits of stick, different shaped boxes, and you know odd things that you have around the house because it doesn't look important. But that's really complex play when children can take all these different objects and create things out of it and then make a story from them. So they're really important play materials. So they're really important play materials.
Speaker 2And then, in terms of toys, I think, vehicles, a tea set, you know, pretend food, because most children you know all children are eating and drinking, so it's something they can relate to in their play. A character you mentioned Bluey earlier. So a character, one or two characters the child really would like to play with, would be one of my key things. And you could have things like a doctor's kit or you know a little cash register to make up a shop, um, and then that probably they're probably the core things. Um, a really good car mat is really helpful. I used that a lot when I was working with children. Um, which?
The Power of Play in Education
Speaker 2so that's the mat with little roads, just as a mat on the yes, yes, yeah, they're really handy because kids can do quite a lot with that. Or sometimes they just put their own things on top of it and they just use the car mat as a mat and they create play scenes on top. Blocks are great. Blocks are really good. You can do so much with blocks, so they're the type of toys that I would have. I've just come across a new article on electronic toys and traditional toys that's just been published. So the researchers were looking at a parent and a child playing with like traditional toys you know, like your cars and your tea sets and things, and then electronic, electronic toys, and they looked at the amount of talking and conversation and they found with electronic toys there was much less talking, but with your traditional toys there was a lot more talking about what was happening in the play. And Evan Kidd, one of my colleagues, has done some really lovely research where this is done in Canberra, again looking at different toys. So they had parent and child come in when the child was 18 months and then they had the parent and the child come back when the child was 24 months. So they had 54 parent-child pairs and they asked the parents to play for 10 minutes with one set of toys and this was a magnetic board and a puzzle and a peg and hammer set and some castanets. And then they had 10 minutes with what they called the symbolic or pretend play toys and this was a piece of felt couple of blocks, a teddy, tea set, toy phone and a spoon and they just asked parents to play and they videoed and these were doctoral students that analysed the videos and they were looking at the conversation that occurred, the amount of talking, the amount of initiation either by the child or the parent and what they found both at 18 months there was a lot more, you know joint attention looking at the toys with the pretend play toys, more than the you know the magnetic board and the puzzle. And at 24 months they found there was a lot more conversation with the pretend play toys between the parent and the child and there was a lot more complex language and the child initiated a lot more of the talking with the pretend play.
Speaker 2Because with the pretend play, like when you've got toys like a teddy and a cloth and a couple of blocks and a cup and a saucer, you've got to negotiate and work out what's happening in the play.
Speaker 2So are the little blocks going to be little pieces of food for teddy or are they going to be bits of sugar to put in the play? So are the little blocks going to be little pieces of food for Teddy, or are they going to be bits of sugar to put in the cup, or are they going to be something completely different? So there was a lot more conversation with the pretend play toy because you've got to negotiate with the child about what's the meaning in the play, what are we playing? Whereas with the magnetic board and the hammer and peg set the parent. They found the parents did a lot more talking and a lot more directing of the children. So of course, the children really didn't need to talk so much. So you know that type of toys will bring different skills and pretend play certainly encourages a lot more social interaction and a lot more conversation and talking.
Speaker 1And what about gender? You know boys and girls and children that don't associate with any gender, do they? Do children go to different toys? Is there any research on that?
Speaker 2Oh, yes, there's. There's lots of research on that and I've even I've even done some of that work, because when I was developing my play assessment, I thought I might need a girl's kit and a boy's kit, but in the end I just needed one kit. So, worldwide, including children in Australia, when you offer boys and girls or children who don't think of themselves as either a boy or girl, if you offer them toys, the boys, the children that are the boys they don't play with as wide a range as the girls. Girls play with a much wider range of toys than the boys. In fact, I did this in the 90s and I had some boys look at me and go, I'm not playing with them, they're girls toys. Where's your boys toys? So hence, the chipper has got trucks in it as well as animals, because all the kids love the animals.
Speaker 2So you have, generally speaking I mean, I haven't looked at anything since 2020, but but certainly before then uh, girls played with quite a wide range of toys, just anything with, whereas boys were a bit more particular in what they played with um, but then the best narrative player I've ever seen is a boy and the best problem solver I've seen is a girl. So you know you can only generalise to a certain point in time and then it's. You know both boys and girls have complex play. Boys tend to use a lot more space early on than girls. Girls tend to talk a lot more and be a lot more social in their play early on, but then by six and seven there's not really that much difference between the play of boys and girls. So yeah, it is interesting.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? And what about schools, playing schools, Because I know a lot of parents worry that their children are not going to be ready for school and to read and write and things like that. Is there enough play in schools and do schools know enough about play in your opinion?
Speaker 2Generally across the board. I think, play-based learning. In Victoria, where I live, there is a lot of interest in play-based learning, but knowing how to do it well is a whole different level of training for teachers. So we have I have a new book out called Learning Through Play in the Primary School, the WhyNH for teachers and school leaders, and in that we have examples from a school that's about an hour from here and they do play through the whole school and they've been doing it for 17 years and they do it extremely well.
Speaker 2And this is a school where a lot of the children have come from difficult circumstances. Some have a lot of the children have come from difficult circumstances. Some have a lot of been experienced trauma. So you know, 17 years ago they invited me to come and have a chat. They've looked at a whole lot of things and they had a lot of behaviour problems and they had, you know, on what is now NAPLAN. They were right down the bottom, like their children, you know, weren't interested in learning and they thought the even the more rigorous they got around curriculum it didn't help. So they sat down because you have to be very brave to do this and they said, um, I think we need to change how we're working with children. So now they have a very play-based learning all the way through. It's very sophisticated what they do. They are now way above NatLan, particularly in literacy and spelling and narrative like way above. They're like double the state the average for NatLan.
Speaker 1Wow. And when you say all the way through, what does that mean? All the way through, From the first year of school to the last year?
Speaker 2of primary school. Wow. And when you say all the way through, what does that mean? All the way through, From the first year of school to the last?
Speaker 1year of primary school.
Speaker 2Is grade six. Yes, yep, grade six as well. So they don't have any all their. They have open classrooms with play areas and with the year sixes I know they've got a map of the world because they're you know, they're looking at different countries and things like that. So I've mainly been working with the early years in in that school so I can talk more about that than the older children. But it certainly is all the way through. And the children they had a few years ago they had the first lot of children who'd done play all the way through. And the children a few years ago they had the first lot of children who'd done play all the way through primary school, go to high school.
Speaker 2And the feedback from the high schools was what are you doing with these children? Because they want to learn, they see themselves as a learner and they get annoyed when the other kids are mucking up in class. So I think you know, and they really were not supported early on and they certainly had to work with parents to tell parents and to talk to parents about what they were going to do. So if a school is going to put in play-based learning, they also need to have parents come to information meetings and be talking to parents about why they're doing it and how they're going to do it and what it's going to look like and what are the benefits they expect to have from that. Because you know play doesn't look like you're learning anything on the surface, but you're using lots of language, You're doing lots of problem solving, you know you're being emotionally engaged and that's rewarding, because then you want to learn more, because that's rewarding and then you want to learn more.
Speaker 2So there's some great stuff coming out now on play-based learning by a couple of particularly a couple of researchers called Kathy Hurst-Pasek and Roberta Golinkoff, and they have identified five key things about how children learn through play. It needs to be joyful and enjoyable, needs to be meaningful. So, for example, at the school I worked in, they had a little play kitchen area and there was a little boy in there who went in there every day and he was, and after a few months he started writing out what he needed to buy, and he wrote out apple juice, just phonetically, and so the children were starting to get really interested in writing and in how things look and how you put together stories that type of thing, which was really good, Wow.
Speaker 1So because.
The Value of Play in Development
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah, and intentional and socially interactive, because then children have to critically think about what are other children saying about this and and you know how can I add to that conversation? So it is really an effective way for children to learn. But teachers, you know, really need to shift how they, how they interact and teach with children, and that's not easy for a lot of teachers, but it's a whole different level of training really.
Speaker 1And probably a systemic level as well, right, so? Top down that governments would endorse that type of learning. Yes, you really.
Speaker 2Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1No, go on. So your research is primarily concerned with the play ability of children under 10 years of age, and I ask why Does play change at that age?
Speaker 2Yes, well, I guess it's been logistically um, why it's been under 10? Because I've mainly worked in early childhood intervention services for um most of my working life and so I have been working with children under 10 and in fact, under six for a lot, a lot of that time, if we were in a specialist service where we were the pediatric specialist service for a whole area. So a lot of my original research is certainly children under 10. But in 2010, I started thinking about, well, what happens if children end up being 13 years old and they haven't really developed a lot of the skills that I know pretend play builds in children? So what happens then? So since 2010, I have been working with others, including Sophie Goldengay, and we have developed the Imagine Create what is it called? What is it called Imagine Create Belong program, which builds pretend play skills, but in an age appropriate way, with children from 11 to 15 years of age.
Speaker 2And in the Learn to Play book now I have a chapter on children seven to 10, because you do have to shift how you work with children who are a bit older. Play does change in that 10 to 12, around that age group, 13, because children move from now sitting on the floor playing and creating play scenes or running around, and you know playing spy games or whatever. When I which is what I did as a child it changes at that. You know 10, 11, 12, 13 type age period because all those skills now flip into the child's head. So it's it's all those skills now about how you negotiated with others, how you read a social situation, how you thought through a problem solving, how you worked out that story, how you thought about that sort of thing. All those thinking skills which you learn in play are now completely in your head. So you really don't see 15-year-olds sitting on the floor anymore. You know setting up a play scene because it's in their head now and play with peers now becomes a lot more important than ever before. So being able to follow a conversation, being able to understand what others are doing, being able to follow and be self-regulated in that group and to be able to be comfortable in who you are is really important.
Speaker 2Because we know teenagehood is, you know that everything changes in your body and you're working out who you are again and in a whole other level. So we have created Imagine Creativity Long for the older age group to give them. It aims to give a deeper sense of self. It aims to build those thinking skills in play that they missed out on and also that understanding of narrative and thinking through what might happen next. Now, because some kids don't have that.
Speaker 2And it's interesting because Sophie did her doctorate with juvenile offenders in New Zealand and she works at Deakin, and we were having coffee one day and she was saying a lot of the you know, these young juveniles that were in prison didn't know why they were there and I said I reckon it's because they probably had poor play and poor play experiences so they never learnt that social learning. You know, where you understand the motivations of others and you can work out if you're being, you know, manipulated or not, or if someone's not being honest with you or they're bluffing you or they're trying to trick you. They hadn't learnt those skills, so they ended up in prison and not really knowing why, and from there we've ended up developing this whole new approach for that age. Wow, anyway.
Speaker 1Oh, that is so inspiring. That is so inspiring. I'm going to see if I can ask you to give me the link so we can put it in the show notes for people, because I'm sure other people will be really wanting to see that. The other thing I read, karen, was that you've researched the early playability in people with anorexia nervosa. What is anorexia nervosa and how is play different for these people, these children?
Speaker 2So anorexia nervosa. This is my colleague, genevieve Pepin, who is the expert in anorexia nervosa. But anorexia nervosa is where children or young adults stop eating. You know, eating becomes a major issue, to the point where they can become seriously ill. So there is. So we, there was some research coming out when we did this, looking at teenagers those who had a diet who were neurodiverse, with a diagnosis of autism, and young teenagers with anorexia nervosa, and there seemed to be some overlap in terms of having shift, setting difficulties, so not being that flexible when things changed and not being cognitively flexible either. So because there's two, there's one train of thought that anorexia nervosa really is not just because of media and not just environment, but there's something inherent in how that child understands the world that can shift to becoming, you know, stop eating.
Speaker 2So we, I said to Genevieve you know, this is really interesting. We know lots about the play of early children with autism, but we don't know anything about people who have anorexia nervosa. So she interviewed, we interviewed people, 15 to 25 about their early play experiences and what they remembered. So we asked them to bring along something from their childhood as a memory prompt and we interviewed or Genevieve interviewed everyone twice so that you know in case there were some memories that they remembered second time. So what we found is that on the surface, because I did the analysis second time. So what we found is that on the surface, because I did the analysis of the play, of what they reported as their play, on the surface it looked like they had all the playabilities you would expect of a young person or a child to have.
Speaker 2But the interesting things, the really striking thing, was play was a task. It was not pleasurable enjoyment and joy, it was a task. So they played because the other kids were playing, so they thought they should play too without that emotional joy, because true play is that emotional joy, because true play is that emotional joy. The other thing is quite a few of them control the play because they said if I control the play, I know what's going to happen next. Okay, so that's a little bit of rigidity coming in and that you know that stress and anxiety around. If someone else suggests something, I've got to think about that and be flexible and change, and that's too stressful. So if I control it, then I know where the play's going to go. And so there were some things in there that you were like well, it looks like they can play, but it looks like that flexibility, that mental, moment by moment shifting with others, and that joy, true joy and pleasure in play really seemed to be missing if you took the sample as a whole. So, yeah, it was really interesting.
Speaker 1We do have that paper sitting there, but well, like who would have thought that play can have just so many aspects and you could just see, you know different patterns in play, in different types of play, right?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's amazing, I'm like gobsmacked.
Speaker 1I'm sitting here going wow, wow, that just blew my mind. I know that time's running out, so I'm just going to ask you a couple more questions and I think what I'll do I might get you back on to do a specific topic or something. Um, because you, I could just listen to you all day and um for the, for the listeners. I can't see karen at the moment. Karen is in another state, so if you're hearing a bit of flickering of audio in and out, but I'm sitting here like smiling my mouth's open, I'm like nodding my head and, yeah, because I just love listening to you. Karen. What are some of the biggest misconceptions parents have about play?
Speaker 2Well with parents. I always, if I'm meeting a parent for the first time, we're having a chat, um about play. I always, I always acknowledge that play doesn't seem important. Um, I always acknowledge that some parents see play as important and others, you know, just never thought about it really. So I always say play doesn't look important and I acknowledge that. I think that's a good place to start, often because then parents will add whether they agree with that or not, we can have a bit more chat.
Speaker 2And the other thing is, as I give them handouts around the skills in play, parents start to say to me I never realised when my child is playing just how much they're doing when they're playing. So I think a misconception is play is not that important and they're not really learning anything when they're playing, when really it's the opposite they're doing lots of talking, they're doing lots of thinking, they're doing lots of thinking about a new idea that they've got to add to the play. They've got to think about what objects are going to be in the play, who's going to be in the play where they're going to be playing, who they're going to be playing. So I think, as I talk to parents, I think a misconception is that play isn't that important really, and I really want my child to be able to, you know, write and do maths.
Supporting Children's Play Development
Speaker 2But children need, before they can write a story, children have to understand what a story is, and they do that implicitly when they're playing. So by the time they get to school they understand oh, a story, okay, so you know, the teddy bear went down here and did that and went there. So it's an implicit skill that they build in their play and then at school it becomes more explicit because then they have to write down a story. So and in maths talking about play types is a topic for another day probably there are mathematical players and you can see in their play that they think mathematically, they want to work out how things relate to each other and what happens, and you can see that in children's play and you can also, again, as I said, play is an ability. You can also add that into play for children who you know want to expand it and make their play more complex. So I think they're the mate for two things really that play is not important and children don't learn anything.
Speaker 1And is it ever too late for parents to learn how to play?
Speaker 2No, no, I like to be an optimist and I know, I think, that you're always learning. You're always learning and you're always picking up new skills, and even if a parent doesn't want to play themselves, that's okay. But I like to build their knowledge about what happens with play and why play is valuable, so that parents have allowed time for their child to play. You said earlier in an earlier question, children are often organized all the time, but children need time to play because it takes time to think about what you want to play and what you're going to do 30 minutes in between tasks, karen, isn't enough.
Speaker 1It's not a filler plays, not a filler in the routine well, it might be.
Speaker 2If you're 18 months, you know an 18 month old probably doesn't need that much time, but if you have a four-year-old, you need to give them an afternoon or a morning because it takes that time to think about what to play, to get the things you need, to set it up and to start playing. So, and also, at four and five, children can play the same, carry on the same play idea over a couple of weeks. So they need a place to play and if they can leave their play scene set up somewhere and that doesn't you know, if you've got a small place, they may have to pull it down. But you can take a little photo because most people have phones these days. Take a photo so the child can see what they did and they can set it up quickly and then continue the play. So I think time to play is a really important one.
Speaker 1Yeah, as you said, it's not really a filler because I think that's what people perceive play as, and I remember before I did your course, I felt play was to elicit something rather than you actually learn things through play. So that was really interesting. So one of the things you've mentioned is give children time to play. What are another two things you could recommend to parents to support or facilitate their children's play development support or facilitate their children's play development.
Speaker 2So they need a place to play where they can leave toys if that's possible, and it's also the resources. So you know you don't need a lot of toys. But you know, if you've got a box or you've got a piece of cloth or you've got something you know like a tube out of the like the Glad Wrap, you know those cardboard tubes. Or you've got a plastic out of the like the glad wrap, you know those cardboard tubes. Or or you've got a plastic container. Having just presenting these to children, saying, oh, I wonder what these could be, you know, I wonder what you could use this in your play. So I think, resources, a place to play, in time to play that and and under underpinning that is that parents understanding that play. There's a lot of skills involved in playing. So by what they say, encouraging, you know, children to think about what they could do and to value play, children will know if parents value play or if they dismiss it.
Speaker 1So I think, if parents you know they can feel it, the children.
Speaker 2Yes, yes, yeah, they do, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1And I think I always say to parents you know, just try and be playful, you know, a couple times a week with your child, because that will be the connection point. You know, as a speech pathologist, the child can play on their own, okay, but how, you know, rich would their language development be, their comprehension, their pragmatic skills, their social-emotional learning through the play, if the parent just sort of put their phone down and, you know, put the chores to the side and just, you know, spent that time playing with the child. It doesn't have to be for the whole afternoon, but maybe 30 minutes, you know 40 minutes.
A Discussion on Early Childhood Play
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yes. And enjoy, enjoy your child. So there is no right way to play. So just enjoying that interaction and having a laugh that you know children love it. So in the playroom children would love it when I played with them, but when their parent came in, their whole face would light up even more. So you know parents are so important to children, you are the most important person to them. So playing with them is really a lovely way to enjoy your child.
Speaker 1And I think, like you were saying before it's, you know that children know that play is not a task for you, but it is also joy. You know, and I always say fake it till you make it, until it becomes fun. And it does become fun. Kids just pull stuff out of the air and you think how can I not enjoy this right now? You know, um, and they all yeah go on.
Speaker 2they always have a better idea than you, I find, Always, always always.
Speaker 1So, Karen, what would be free recommendations for therapists or educators you could give to support parents so they can support their children's play?
Speaker 2So a couple of things we've said already. So one, the first one would be just enjoy it. There's no right way to play, uh. Two, uh responding to your child. So wait and see uh what, what they might be thinking about and what they can do themselves. And that because that self-initiated place is really critical, because that means the child's really thinking, and then coming in to join or just keep watching the child. And also the third thing would be for therapists and teachers to help build that parent's understanding of play, so parents see the value of the many skills within play. So talking about the things that are happening in the play, like the conversation, the talking about the things that are happening in the play, like the conversation, the talking, the social interaction, the negotiation, the thinking through what's happening in the story, understanding the motivations of the characters you know. And talking to parents. So building parents' understanding of play.
Speaker 1Oh, wow, karen, I just feel like I've been in a whole hour of play. Now I've got to come out of my bubble. Thank you so much, karen, for for joining um today and for imparting your amazing knowledge and skills and passion um with myself and listeners, and I'm sure this is going to be a very educational and informative podcast, not only to parents but for many people who are in the area of early childhood and childhood development. What I will do, karen, I will get in touch with you after this podcast and ask you to, you know, send me some links that we can post on the show notes so people can have a look and see. And I am feeling there's going to be another podcast coming up, maybe in a few months, with you on a special interest area. So thank you so much for joining and thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's been great, great having a chat and talking. Play, love it.
