The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis

Episode 5: Louise Trinkle (Parent) - Navigating the Neurodiversity of Twins

• Louise Trinkle • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Louise a mum and passionate saxophone player, shares her journey with neurodivergent twins and how she navigated through the education and health systems to provide the right support for them. Today, she can rest and enjoy learning a new skill, knowing she has done everything she could to support both of her boys on their journey.

danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services

Dana:

Hi Louise, welcome to my podcast, the Empowered Parent. I know you from many years ago and I've seen your growth and I consider you to be an empowered parent. That's why I've invited you today, and I know you're a parent of a special young man. Well, you're a parent of two special young men, so I was thinking it would be lovely to talk today about your journey and sharing that with other parents, because I know that that would be really, really helpful for other parents. So, first of all, I would love you to share your story with other parents who are listening about being an empowered parent, because that has been a journey for you to become empowered and know what's right for your sons, and both because both of your sons have unique skills and attributes on either end of the spectrum, if you like, of the learning spectrum. And how did you navigate through your journey?

Louise:

Yeah, I think my son was one of them was diagnosed at 20 months old as being autistic. But we knew from well, probably from about 12 months old, maybe even back before then. I would say I knew in the womb that they were different. They were twins and I think my experience of pregnancy with them blows all the ideas that autism is something that is by parenting or anything like that. Because he was different in the womb, he was quiet and you would always say kind of withdrawn in the womb and not kicking and rolling around and responding to touch and sound. The same. They were very distinctly different and we had a very good cuffs nurse and we were doing the ages and stages questionnaires and to start with it was all they were tracking, really the same. Then you could just really see him start into gradually fall behind in the milestones so objectively we could really see from an early age that he was tracking very differently.

Dana:

This was after they were born, right.

Louise:

Yeah, and even, you know the way he was in the cot. He would throw all his cuddlies out of the cot and sleep in a bare cot. And you know his twin would have cuddlies in the cot and he expected a young child to want a cuddly so we could see. Oh, and they were really little. We flew somewhere and he was looking at a thread on the seat on the aircraft and his twins trying to pat the bald guy's head on the seat in front of us and what reaction am I going to get?

Louise:

And the aircraft was full of Italian families going on holiday, on a group holiday, and they were like oh, kids, you know, they're all wanting to hold and cuddle and everything, and the one boy loving it and the other one still looking at his little thread. So it was obvious. And the CAFHS nurse was very good at just kept saying you know, I can make you an appointment, I can make you an appointment. Oh no, we're okay, we're okay. And it came to a point where it was just, yeah, it was helped by him being a twin.

Dana:

That we knew early on and there was something. And tell me about that moment when the CAFHS nurse was saying we can make you an appointment, we can make an appointment, and you were saying, oh, we're okay, we're okay. Why were you saying that as a young parent?

Louise:

That's interesting.

Dana:

About your young child.

Louise:

Oh, partly because everybody says to you oh, kids grow up at different times and he's little and there's nothing wrong. And the GP, you know there's nothing wrong with him at all, and everybody's saying that and you sort of fear being high maintenance. And I think I've seen it with friends of mine where you know their parents and parents who have worked with children and worked in the childcare sector and are very knowledgeable and say you know well, in my opinion there's nothing wrong and that's, you know, a very valid opinion. But yeah, you might have your mum hunch that there's something not right. But I think people think they're trying to make you feel better by saying, okay, he's fine, he can catch up. But you know they're probably trying to make you feel okay or they don't see what you see.

Louise:

So, I think that sort of mum instinct is important.

Louise:

I think it's all sorts of things. I was, you know that was. They were my first kids, they're my only kids. And now if I look at a baby, you know I could.

Louise:

I mean you would be like this you can probably within 30 seconds go, or, like you know, kid is so neurotypical you know, because I remember a different CAFHS nurse walking in and like playing with the kids and just picking them up, and you know, and and now I go, yeah, like if they look at you and giggle and they look you straight in the face, you can see, at the time I think, oh, isn't she lovely, she's playing with my kids.

Dana:

Yeah, yeah.

Louise:

First time mum, and they were the first kids in our family for 27 years. Wow, I've never been around young kids at all.

Dana:

Yes.

Louise:

And so I had no idea of what I would see now in a young kid. Yes, so a bit of like ignorance and people's voices around you, and you always think, well, just let it go another month, we'll just see, we'll see. And because my other son was so interactive and communicated from the second he came out, he was a missed communication, so I was certainly aware that maybe what we were seeing was one.

Louise:

I hate the word normal, but one was neurodiverse and one was and the one that was neurodiverse was probably an exceptionally bright, communicative kid. There was a point where we had to pick someone up from the airport and they were tiny, they weren't walking or anything and they were in the pram and it was like the Friday night at Adelaide Airport and there's this stream of people coming in. It's winter, it's pouring with rain and I was on a seat that was like just outside, just by the entrance, by security, and there's hundreds of really fed up people walking in or trying to get their flights back to wherever you know into the working week, and Andrew sat in his pram.

Louise:

Can we mention names? I don't know. Yeah, that's fine Child A.

Dana:

Andrew.

Louise:

Yeah, he's. Andrew Was in his pram like laughing, shrieking everybody that went past. He wanted to get eye contact, like here .

Louise:

You know, and you know, I literally saw probably 100 people's countenance completely change as they walked past him. Yes, and you know, osh, he's just kind of doing the baby thing, just I'm not looking at something or whatever. So, what I wasn't sure about, I think, was a lot of what I saw, was probably I was thinking Andrew was more different, yeah, neurodiverse, yeah, you know, in a very, very interactive, communicative way. Yeah, and Josh was kind of like you're, typical, like everyone else. Yeah, everyone else yeah.

Dana:

Wow yeah.

Louise:

Yeah, but the point where we couldn't ignore it was discipline, so Josh was obsessed with doors.

Louise:

You probably remember like the relentless opening and closing every door, fascinated by them, and just wouldn't stop. And whatever I tried, with discipline, you know, just constantly redirect, redirect. He goes straight back to it. And an older member of my sister-in-law's family had said to me when they were born she had twins. And she said you know, just a bit of advice, louise, if you, you know, give them a bit of a smack with a wooden spoon once, that you'll only ever have to do it once and all you'll have to do is, you know, head for the wooden spoon jar and they'll fall into line. And I, you know, I was a bit shocked at the time and said, and if you go to someone's house, then if they're really acting up, you just say, oh, do you have a wooden spoon? And you know, obviously this is parenting from like way back. Yeah, and there was a point where the door opening and closing was so relentless and every house we went to, every door, cupboard doors, everything had to be open and closed.

Louise:

And people say I don't tell how my children to do that. I can't stop them. And I sat there and I was exhausted from moving him away, redirecting, redirecting, and I had smacked his hand and you know, no, no, no, moving away, and it was just completely obvious to me there's no point doing that.

Louise:

And I sat on the floor and thought well, it's either the wooden spoon or I get help. And it's definitely that I get help.

Dana:

Yeah.

Louise:

So it was that I can remember it so clearly. It was because I had no way to discipline him in a, you know, keep him safe. I had no way of stopping him from doing something dangerous, you know.

Dana:

And that was your turning point, when you started to seek help for yourself and yeah.

Louise:

So I said to the CAFHS nurse yeah, and make the appointment. And we went to like a CAFHS, I think she was a doctor and they're not allowed to. You know sort of suggest a diagnosis or anything. But when I got stuff from her afterwards, she I can't remember. She wrote up a bit of a report and made recommendations and the envelope was full of leaflets about autism and in the but what was really?

Dana:

Did you have any inkling that he was on the autism spectrum?

Louise:

I walked into the meeting and I said I need help. I've got no idea what's going on with him. The only thing I'm absolutely certain of is that I know it's not autism.

Dana:

Yeah right, yeah. And then you have the pamphlets about autism yeah, and how did you feel then?

Louise:

Smashed.

Dana:

Yeah.

Louise:

So I said he's definitely not autistic. He gives eye contact, he's happy. Yeah, I know he is certainly not autistic, but I need to know what's going on. And the other thing that was really crushing and they meant to be so kind and they were, but the end of that meeting the sort of assistant woman in the room said don't worry, you'll get funding for him. Oh, and I had gone into the meeting thinking they're just going to give me some parenting strategies or yeah, you know like something and she goes don't, don't worry, you'll get funding for him.

Dana:

Wow.

Louise:

And that was like an enormous bombshell. What do you mean? You know funding for him? He's not.

Louise:

Because I'd had nothing to do with kids. Yes, so not with friends, not with family, like I had nothing to do with kids. So you know what did I know I didn't know about your typical kids. I didn't know anything about kids at all. You know, I didn't even know how to play with the kid. I wasn't a natural at playing with kids. So you know what, in that space, what do you know about kids with any issues? You know well what's? Certainly a whole load of judgment that it would be parenting. You know, it was probably in my mind. It was either shocking parenting or they were severely disabled.

Louise:

So, kids that needed help would probably fall into like those two categories. So certainly massively judgmental.

Dana:

And then Josh comes into your life, then, like we've got Josh, your teacher, the professor, arrives. Oh yeah, so, wow, wow. So how you know with it? So you've told, you've talked about the challenges of the doors and everything. Were there other challenges like with the education system and what about with having the two boys and the way they played together? And you know, his brother was quite, quite bright, right.

Louise:

Well, I suppose, if you don't mind, we can go back a step in that because before we got into education there was the whole finding therapy.

Dana:

Oh, yes, yes, and what?

Louise:

we what we did then?

Dana:

Yes.

Louise:

And the preschool thing. So you know, there was the issue that, being twins, we couldn't put him in childcare.

Dana:

Yes.

Louise:

They said that in the CAFHS meeting, the woman said to me whatever you do, don't put him in childcare. Why is that? She said he can't make sense of the world. Everything I say to you, everything, everything I say to him, he looked straight at you. For what do I do? Okay, and everything. We realized everything he did. He just copied his brother. You know he would look for us and fit in with what we were doing, but he didn't have any ability to navigate. You know he was a twin and an eye didn't work us home. He had no ability to navigate a situation alone and you know, I think she just felt that things would go very badly wrong at that point. I think she was right If he was suddenly in a room with other kids having to find his own way around. You know, he just didn't have the robustness.

Dana:

The social robustness.

Louise:

And he's always been a really sweet, gentle, compliant sort of kid. And yeah, it would have just been way too much, but it's the. You know, in those days there wasn't the stuff on the internet, there wasn't the NDIS, there wasn't support, coordination or anything like that so. I remember trying to find who could diagnose autism in SA.

Louise:

It was so impossible to find like even a list of people who could diagnose and then who can fit you in. And then how do you fund that appointment? And you know, do you go to a psychiatrist or multidisciplinary? And we thought well, we want two people because we're pretty unsure about this ourselves, so we actually want two people's eyes over it.

Louise:

And then Kerry Burke and Lauren Sullivan did this diagnosis and they were fabulous. We started speech therapy before that, finding a speech therapist. Like you know, it was well, what do you do? You don't know anyone who does speech therapy and thankfully, someone we rang said oh no, no, the person you really need is Katie Telfer, and I don't mind giving Katie a shameless plug for her part in the journey. So you know, and then Katie took us along to your workshop. So I just think we were incredibly fortunate to come across the right people straight off. We found it really hard to find an OT and that was the bit that was tricky for us, but it was so hard, Dana, to find, you know, people to help. And then the choice of therapy approach. And at the time there was one very dominant therapy approach that everyone was like and I think it was.

Dana:

That was a ABA, wasn't it? Yeah, it's still quite dominant, so it's ABA.

Louise:

Yeah, and I can't remember who in it all, certainly wasn't. Katie Signed us up, said well, I'll just get you on this, this waiting list, anyway because you'll need to be on this waiting list and trying to work out what approach we wanted when there was like no information. You know, that was hard, and I think that's where we just step back and went well, what's common sense?

Dana:

So yeah, Wow, that's huge. Yeah, finding the right therapist, I think, is important, and it's also about people who listen and who understand your child, because it could be the right approach, but it might not be the right therapist, or it could be the right therapist with a different approach, but it is about who the parents click with and who the child clicks with right. That's what I've noticed, and I think therapists are beginning to now more and more refer on when they know that they are not the right practice, which I think is the right thing to do.

Louise:

I think that's great, and I think you know things now are so much better. There's so much more information. Yeah, it's not the landscape that we were in.

Dana:

No, you know, 12 years ago, no, and that's important, I think, for the listeners to remember that it's not that you know, people might be saying, oh, NDIS this, NDIS that, but there's so much more choice now than there was and definitely more providers, but I still think there are quite a few waiting lists and really quite there's a lot of waiting lists for diagnosis and the diagnosis is only for funding.

Louise:

And you know, I suppose we were fortunate in that we could fund a private diagnosis and I think we only waited about two months. So we, you know, like we were really really fortunate with that, but you know where it was hard, like there weren't the Facebook groups, there wasn't the yeah, there wasn't the system, there was the HACWA funding.

Dana:

I remember that.

Louise:

Yeah, and it was hard and we certainly when we were saying about finding the right therapist. You know one of the OTs we went to, everybody recommended and so she was, you know, just fabulous. And we did one session and you know there's no way I was going back, and again it was the mum hunch which I think is important because it's not about saying oh, everyone said that that person's great, We'll keep going, keep going, keep going.

Dana:

You knew when to pull out, which I think is important, because we see quite a few children that come traumatized from therapies because it's just been too long. That's really.

Louise:

and I think that's really interesting, Dana, because in that situation I think it's really important to keep a firm view of the child as a person.

Dana:

Yes.

Louise:

And we went to this session and the lady was adamant that he should be taught sort of scripted play routines. So she said you know, right, one of the first things is kids will be playing and making a meal cooking and he needs to be able to walk, walk out to them, get a saucepan, put a toy egg in it and, you know, put it on the stove and say cook, cook, cook and then pretend to eat it. And she put her hand over here and was forcing him to hold the saucepan. You know now say cook, cook, cook, you know, and everything, and I just no, he's a person that he needs to actually want to go and interact with those people and he has to be interested in that we've cooked at home and what this is, and you know, just screamed at me that it's not a dog, you're not going to train him to, just follow commands and see that situation.

Louise:

I follow a script.

Dana:

Yes, yes.

Louise:

You know, there's so much more.

Dana:

Yeah, he's got his individual interests profile. Yeah, Does he even like eggs? Yeah, Like what I asked to him. You know what's the meaning of all that cooking.

Louise:

Yeah, there's so much behind it.

Dana:

Yeah, it could be that he just likes the numbers on the stove or turning the dials.

Louise:

It's something more interesting in the room.

Dana:

That's fine, exactly, exactly.

Louise:

So and we went outside after that and it was dark and there was a moon, and you know, never forget that as long as I live, because we were really struggling to get him to speak and we looked up at the moon and I pointed at the moon, moon. And we stood on this woman's drive and I can remember thinking I don't care, darling, if you hear us, and I kind of hope you are, because we're standing on your drive pointing at the moon, shouting moon at the top of our voices.

Dana:

Wow In the middle of like this.

Louise:

You know Adelaide's suburb.

Dana:

Quiet, suburb, quiet really quiet and it was.

Louise:

I'm getting you know, I'm getting interaction with him and I absolutely loved sitting there with my darling boy shrieking at the moon and just walked away and I went stuff you're cooking.

Dana:

Fantastic, and again that seemed powered parent. Louise, Impowered parent.

Louise:

It's. I think I found it really hard to engage with both of my kids anyway because of my lack of just being around kids and my own profile and, yeah, just trying to still like therapy person and some therapies any therapy that involved like a scripted thing with bribery or teaching teaching like from the adult point of view. Yeah, it didn't ring true with me.

Dana:

So what did you end up really? What type of therapy really ended up helping you?

Louise:

So I think it was helpful because Katie very quickly said I'm going to a workshop, do you want to come with me? And that was when we went to the DIRFloortime workshop. And I just, I mean that was challenging because you know the videos and things that were being talked about. You know, all of a sudden, you're just very aware you're in a disability space. I mean not that it was being portrayed as being anything other than you know. These are humans with various profiles.

Louise:

I'm not saying in any way it was, you know, being being done as sort of disability, you know in a negative way, but you just something very aware you're in a completely different section of society, you know? Okay, Floortime, okay.

Dana:

Yeah.

Louise:

So I think I sat there through the workshop, on the one hand being just shell shocked that I'm now in this completely different space, because I think that was even before diagnosis, but we knew by then really what everyone was talking about and and he'd started the speech therapy, but but also it just rang so true, you know, you just go, this is, this is so logical.

Louise:

So trying to not lose sight of common sense logic. You know and I think that follows through to school and all sorts of situations If people are being transparent with you and they're answering your questions, they can back up what they're saying. It feels right, you feel you're being respected, it makes sense, you know it's. It's probably a good way to go, and if you're not feeling like that, then maybe whether anytime, louise, in your journey, that you didn't feel respected as a parent certainly, I think.

Louise:

Preschool we had a pretty good go and he went into the IPP program and integrated preschool programmer. What was Willow Close at Mount Barker and the kindy director there was an absolute gem and I had to push a little bit for inclusion there. You know why is he watching a toilet training video every day ?

Louise:

Why isn't he eating his lunch with the other kids when he totally can? And you know, that's when having a twin helps, Because Andrew come home like well, why isn't Josh eating his lunch with the rest of us? And I'd be like, right, okay, into can do the next morning.

Dana:

Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Andrew. Tell me more.

Louise:

So you know, but they were, they were good. We had a really good preschool experience. And I was, yeah, really, really thankful for the, you know, the people that sort of steered us towards that.

Dana:

And it's about learning together, isn't it? You know, like I think some people go to educational facilities and they think, oh, they need to have it all worked out, but it's working as a team, so, and if the parent is part of the team and I'm expected, as part of the team.

Louise:

And then that's the problem, Like when we went to primary school certainly with some members of staff I've got enduring friendships and, you know, felt very much part of the team and then, you know, had extremely difficult times through primary school. We went to a couple of primary schools and one was absolutely superb and the other one, I think it was just always a massive issue that I felt what they were doing was not optimal and what they were saying was at times unacceptable and I sort of felt they didn't have the right viewpoint of my child. But they were very strong, that they had their professional pride.

Louise:

And I didn't understand education and you know what they wanted was drop the kid off and stay well out of it. And you know they fervently believed that they were extremely competent, unable. And you know what they don't want is the lawyer mother. You know who's there dropping her kids off every morning, picking them up at night. How did they go? And because you're worried, you know, certainly every day, at that stage in the journey, I think it's completely reasonable that every day you want to know how your kid's gone.

Dana:

Absolutely, you know, and they weren't used to that. And so if a parent is looking for an educational space for their child, what would be like? Three things, your top three things.

Louise:

The top one is really easy and it's something that I learned from Sam Paior from The Growing Space. The child's biggest limitation is other people's expectations.

Dana:

Yes.

Louise:

And I say that over and over, and you know when you're looking round, if you hear things that they have preconceived expectations of what your child can and can't do you need to be asking a few questions around that, because I think it was you that said to us he will surprise you, they'll always surprise you, and it's so true.

Louise:

The things that kids you know. With him, he's turned out to be exceptional at some things, and things that we never would have expected or you know whatever. So if you go into a situation where people are putting limits before they've even met the kid, or they've had the kid in the school. So I'd be looking at that, I'd be just looking at their attitudes towards you as a parent. Do they talk to you as though you're an equal? You know, just on the same level, that they don't talk down to you.

Dana:

Or that you're just a parent.

Louise:

You're just a parent. Yeah, you're hyper-vigilant, yeah, I hear that a lot, because you're going to be hard work, because you're a special needs parent.

Dana:

Oh gosh, I hate that.

Louise:

And you can just see they've got that preconceived idea that On their face you know, oh gee, and the teacher's like, oh no, they're going to be in my class, so any hint of putting you down or talking down to you again. You just kind of want to be probing that a little bit.

Louise:

And then the third thing I would be looking I hope I'm not repeating myself, Dana would be that they really embrace a team approach, that they, when you say, oh, can I bring the speech sheet to the transition meeting, or whatever that they are like, yes, please do that they really. They really view themselves as being part of an overall team where there are other professionals and parents, one bit of it, but then there's probably allied health people. So, yeah, so the expectations that they just basically respect you as a person and that they really genuinely have a heart for working as a team.

Dana:

We could go on and on. What I want to just quickly skip forward to is how do you look after yourself? Because you look amazing. You know, I know it's been hard.

Louise:

It's been a difficult journey, still have a chronic disease and but you're looking amazing.

Dana:

How do you, what do you do for yourself?

Louise:

I think I had a turning point when the kids were finally settled in school. It was such a big thing to get them settled in high school and you just feel the weight off your shoulders at that point. And for a few years I've been quite interested in music and started playing saxophone and playing a community band up in the hills and that's yeah. There's a lot of neurodiversity in our community band and it gave me a group of people completely away from my family and my family will come and the kids will put chairs out at events and things like that. So the families are involved. But I got my own little space and it made a big difference.

Louise:

And then I sort of over the last year, took that forward and I did a music exam last year, which for me was just enormous To actually commit to something that had a date, because for my own health and for the kids being actually able to say on this day I will do this. You just get so used to not being able to that for years and that picked me up a lot.

Dana:

And was that ?

Louise:

Probably going back beyond that, Dana, that you just I don't know whether it Louise my age, like you know, 52, midlife crisis I don't know what it was. But look at yourself and realise that for your whole life you've just been what other people wanted you to be. So, whether you're a child and your parents want you to be a certain way, and then you're a professional person and you have to act out. If you like a certain script, you have to be that person, and then you're a parent and you're just invisible in all of that. And add in health issues and autism and having an autistic kid, and you're just so invisible for your whole life. And I started to realise that, oh, I can play a bit and change tutor, and I think was massively pivotal to change tutor and go forward from there.

Louise:

And actually this is me and my kids hate that. I play saxophone and I go. We hate the noise of all the instruments you play and I go. I don't care. Sorry, boys, go to the other end of the house. It's my time.

Dana:

Okay, Louise, so one more question what was one highlight of your parenting life so far? So far, so far, that's right.

Louise:

I might have to give you two, but yeah, I'm sort of I feel quite ashamed to say it and you know, with the internet now, my kids will probably Google at some point and find this and you know it'll sound so awful, but it is the truth that the day they went to kindy we'd done six months. Kindy transition put a lot of effort in and I dropped them off at Kindy and they both just didn't even look back. I didn't even have to walk into the gate. They went off with their little backpacks and they pretty much ran into Kendi and I had this massive sense of relief that they were someone else's responsibility.

Dana:

Yeah, thanks for listening, but also how nice that they ran in. They were happy yeah they were happy.

Louise:

They went in and I sat there and what I thought was the education system now has a responsibility for them, and I do not have 100%, because it takes a village.

Dana:

Yeah, that I yeah. That's what I felt. It's something to be ashamed of. Kids are all of our responsibility Fantastic.

Louise:

What's another one?

Louise:

I think the other one is I mean, you know, Dana, the thing is, there's so many high-pitche

Dana:

I know there's so many, I know.

Louise:

Every time I look at a photo and he's looking at the camera and he's connected and you can see big connection. Yeah, you know, he's got both my boys who are really involved in community sport. Yes, and he's pretty darn good at table tennis, wow, and up in the hills there's, you know, they're an adult league, there's no juniors league. And you see, like you know, when he sort of makes the finals and he's up against it was his high school teacher's brother-in-law last time in the winter tournament and he trots out and we've had it at interschools as well and he kind of looks around the room and you can see everyone's like, okay, I'm going to serve very gently to you, you know, and he just smashes them and he loves it, like he really enjoys it.

Louise:

But after a couple of seasons in hills in a couple of different sports, he's so accepted and he has a ball and he does his thing and you know and enjoys it. And the last two years he's taken out the club trophy against the adults for the most consistent player, wow, and it's great, you know. And now we walk into things like the end of year hills presentation and you know everybody knows him and they're just like geez, so good at table tennis and you know he won't be sort of state level or anything, but he's just respected for being him and he enjoys it and it's his space.

Louise:

And he's yeah, and he goes off and he does his sport.

Dana:

Fantastic, that's fantastic. I loved, loved chatting to you today. I just think it's so good for other parents to listen to different parents' journeys and thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thanks, darnakas, We'll never forget you.

Louise:

You were a big part of the start of it.

Dana:

And that's why I try and track down parents that I've worked within the past to see what they're doing, because I can see such a change, and the other parents that my staff are working with now.

Louise:

I think it's just good to hear you know from the parents that have been through that journey or still on the journey, but through that journey of the young child, so, and in the in the early days, you think so much day to day and want day to day improvement and you know one of the big wins is that Josh is still really happy to have help and you know you want the long term that when they're 13, they will still go and work with someone.

Dana:

Mmm, you are definitely an empowered parent and I've, like I've heard that you help other parents. Now you know when you want to. So I'm very, very happy that you came in and thank you for being you, Louise, thanks Dana and you.

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Dana Baltutis

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