.png)
The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Welcome to The Empowered Parent Podcast.
This podcast is a space for parents to learn, reflect, and grow.
Each week, we explore topics that help parents understand themselves and their children more deeply - from communication and connection, to supporting neurodivergent development at home and in the community.
We’ve had wonderful conversations with experts, parents, and professionals - including speakers from the Neurodivergence Wellbeing Conference, and a special series following one mum’s journey in unschooling her child.
Every episode is here to inspire curiosity, compassion, and confidence in your parenting journey.
Don’t forget to follow along, share your reflections, and join the conversation.
You can connect with me at danabaltutis.com or mytherapyhouse.com.au.
Let’s celebrate neurodivergence.
Let’s celebrate belonging.
The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Episode 45: Linda Murphy (Speech-Language Pathologist and Author) - Transforming Child Communication Through Declarative Language Techniques
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Unlock the secrets of effective communication with Linda Murphy, a seasoned speech-language pathologist and author of "The Declarative Language Handbook." Discover how declarative language can transform interactions with children, especially those with pathological demand avoidance (PDA), by fostering a relaxed and engaging environment. Linda takes us on her inspiring journey from working with adults with developmental disabilities to becoming a pivotal figure in child communication strategies. Her insights offer a groundbreaking approach to nurturing trust and natural communication without the pressures of constant questioning and demands.
Explore the art of mindful communication and how it can revolutionize daily routines with children, from bedtime to bath time. Learn strategies that not only promote respectful language but also empower children by granting them autonomy and encouraging collaboration. By prioritizing understanding and empathy, we can build stronger relationships with our children and develop their confidence as communicators. Linda shares invaluable advice on creating environments that honor all forms of communication, including gestures and augmentative and alternative communication devices, ensuring that children's voices are acknowledged and respected.
https://www.lindakmurphy.com/, https://www.declarativelanguage.com/, https://pdanorthamerica.org/, https://pdamamabear.com/, https://www.declarativelanguage.com/sunday-snippets-of-support/guiding-principles-when-using-declarative-language-amp-co-regulation, https://www.kristyforbes.com.au/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
Hi, linda Murphy, all the way from the US. Welcome to the Empowered Parent Podcast. What a privilege and pleasure it is to have you on today to speak to us about your journey in helping people communicate as a speech-language pathologist and how you have transformed the way we communicate with children who present with pathological demand avoidance or PDA and have challenges with staying in conversations which they perceive demanding. You live in Boston, massachusetts, and I can hear children in the background, so you are always immersed with children, which is great. You have a practice called Peer Projects and you have partnered with a sister practice called Therapy from the Heart.
Speaker 2You've also written a book called the Declarative Language Handbook, which we have a few copies of at my therapy house here in Adelaide, south Australia. We are constantly referring to it and learning about the family. It'd be great for families to hear you and hear you live basically, and on your website I've read your quote what we say and how we say it matters and I love that. We love that. So, before we dive into communication, linda, could you please tell the listeners about yourself and why you became a speech language pathologist?
Speaker 1Sure, thank you for asking. And yes, so I'm in Boston, massachusetts, and you know we have a big time difference. So it's the beginning of your day, it's the end of mine and I'm at my clinic and there's kids playing in the next room. So I apologize for any background noise, but it's just kids playing at the end of the day. Let's see, I have been a speech language pathologist for 25 years now and I initially got into this field because before I went to graduate school I worked with adults with developmental disabilities and some autistic adults, and I had had no training in speech therapy.
Speaker 1But when I was working with them, first in a work program and then in a residential setting, I learned about speech language pathology or speech therapy and also as a field, but then also just on the ground, the importance of successful communication, and I was intrigued and interested and from that experience went back to graduate school for speech therapy and just have been with it ever since and I continue to just love it so much because there's there's so much we can do in this field. You know so many different, I guess, types of individuals to work with, ages to work with, and I and I think it all really matters, because communication is at the heart of all relationships. So I feel that my work is always really meaningful and purposeful and enjoyable, sometimes hard, but always amazing.
Speaker 2Yeah, it is amazing being a speech pathologist, because I find that amazing as well. So where did you get the inspiration, knowledge and skills to write this amazing book, the Declarative Language Handbook.
Speaker 1So after I had been a speech language pathologist for maybe, like probably seven years, I guess, I then learned about Relationship Development Intervention, or RDI, which is a parent training program to support the development of dynamic communication just within natural environments. And I think at the time I had been working in early intervention, so I was always working just in natural environments to support communication opportunities and also just working really closely with families doing family-centered work. So RDI just I felt, really expanded my skills and knowledge in the direction I wanted to go. That was meaningful for me. And it was in the context of the RDI community that I learned about declarative language and just as an RDI consultant and then a speech language pathologist using declarative language, I just saw on the ground how powerful it was.
Speaker 1You know, it's not that you have to go to school to learn how to speak in a declarative way, you just have to pay attention to your own communication and be mindful. But I just always saw like what a big difference it made and couldn't believe even that people didn't know and people weren't giving it a try. And I know I always talked at the time, modeled it for people, like put it as a recommendation in reports, recommendation in reports. But I guess, I don't know. I just got brave and bold in 2019, 2020, to just get the word out there in a bigger, more clear way. Yeah, and the rest is history. Because I think that it really has resonated with a lot of people that this different way of speaking and communicating really does make a difference and anybody can do it. Anybody who wants to can do it, yeah, so that's why so what is declarative language, Linda?
Speaker 2in a nutshell, yeah.
Speaker 1So declarative language just means that we're commenting in contrast to question asking or placing demands on an individual to follow directions or do something very specific. And I think when, say, for example, when you're in a field where you want to support a child or an individual to learn, or even if you're a caregiver or a parent and you're maybe worried about your child learning like the default can be very quick to quiz that child, ask them questions, make them do things, because then that might make you feel like oh, I can see that they're learning because they can answer my questions, or I can see that I know that I'm teaching them because I'm asking them about things or I'm telling them what to do. But I think when we teach in that way, it becomes more. It can become a stressful context for individuals.
Speaker 1You know nobody likes to be quizzed and question asked or told what to do, and so when we comment instead, it takes all that pressure off of communication and it just becomes about sharing information with the person that you're with at a pace that they can manage and at a level that they can understand. First start doing it. It can feel really different, especially if you're used to quizzing and giving directions and that sort of thing. But as you get in the practice of it and you see the flow of it, you see that it's really a beautiful thing and that the person on the other side does learn and it just builds your trust in the whole process of learning in this different way where we're giving information rather than trying to get something from the person or quizzing them.
Speaker 2So is it like a shift in mindset for caregivers and people communicating with people who have difficulty communicating? Is it a? Because I think quizzing or asking questions and giving commands, that almost comes from our own anxieties as people, as the communicators, right? So we just want to make sure do they have that information, Do they know that content? Or they have to be safe and just be careful and don't do that and don't do this, and that's from our own anxiety. So when we're using declarative language, do we really need to keep checking in on our own internal state and our own mindset?
Speaker 1For sure, for sure. I think when we feel anxiety around something whether it's what the, what the child is doing, or around whether they're learning, like what we might do is pick up our pace, like we might get faster, we might place more demands on them, we might ask more questions. So it absolutely always starts with us and even how we're feeling on the inside and managing our own feelings of worry or anxiety, or doing what we can do to stay regulated in that moment while we try something different.
Speaker 2So is it important for parents or caregivers I'm thinking about caregivers of young children, because it's all very new, they still haven't gotten into a rhythm of communication Is it really important to also seek mental health for themselves, you know, so they feel grounded and strong and feel like they are good parents, even when that comment is not only asking questions, because I think that's what society does, doesn't it? Ask questions and comments. We do that, not comments commands. That's what we do a lot of.
Speaker 1Right, yeah, and even though if you think of like for sure with children, I would say, but if you even think about you as an adult having a conversation with somebody that you have a relationship with, it's not quizzing, it's sharing information back and forth and there might be some questions, but they're authentic questions that revolve around curiosity or something that you don't yet know, versus quizzing and asking questions that you do know the answer to. So it just helps us get in the practice early on of that communicative flow where we share information back and forth, because, at the end of the day, that's how relationships are built.
Speaker 2And so for someone listening that may not understand quizzing and they're just sort of thinking, I'm not sure what they're talking about. Could you go into that a little bit more?
Speaker 1So it could be something where a person might say what's your name, what color is your shirt, how many? How many cookies are there? So, like the quizzing is when the adult asks a question that they know the answer to. So it's purely to test knowledge and it's inauthentic in terms of communication because that person is asking a question that they know the answer to. So the purpose is to quiz versus build a relationship.
Speaker 2I love that and I often see children like looking at their parents, like why are you asking that? You can see it too. We're both seeing it together. I just can't say it. But you know, when we do ask like, oh, what's your idea? Now, you know, because we don't know what the idea of the child is, and that just gives them that validation that we are, our questions are out of curiosity, rather than totally you say yeah and there is I think there is a different um affect or uh, emotional sort of ambience around those questions as well. The quizzing questions versus the curiosity questions.
Improving Communication Through Respectful Language
Speaker 1yeah, would you there's that anxiety and that stress and that peace. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some other, like common ones, might be something like what should you be doing right now? What do you need? So if you're in the, in the middle of a, of a transition or in school, you know those, those are questions. What's your job? All those things which just plays pressure.
Speaker 2Pressure. Yeah, so those questions are the quizzing questions and the pressure questions. It's almost like well, I know more than you and I'm going to withhold that information and you need to tell me what I know. You know that type of thing, wow. So let's go through some real life examples for some families that might be listening and they're thinking well, I comment all the time and I know it's been really interesting working with parents, because some people don't even realise that they're asking questions or they are giving instructions and commands, until they may look at them and reflect on themselves in a video and then they'll think oh my, I've asked so many questions, I haven't got any comments right.
Speaker 1Totally yeah. And you know what, when you were talking about the curiosity-based questions, or when when we were, I wanted to add one more thought to that. So if you're going to ask a question like those are the ones that are best to ask because they're authentic. But then the other layer comes in is it's still? It still does place pressure on an individual to formulate an answer in the moment, on an individual to formulate an answer in the moment. And so that's even where you just want to be mindful of the person that you're with and am I asking them a question that they're not equipped in this moment, for whatever reason, to answer?
Speaker 1And it places time pressure. So for some individuals it's all good, it doesn't matter, but for others, like it really does matter and you don't want to place that time pressure on them, to come up with, to formulate language in the moment or, for example, recall a memory in the moment like that can be hard for lots of different reasons. So there's even ways that you can get into those types of questions with declarative statements for individuals for whom those questions are still tricky. So, and even just to give you an example, it could be something like oh, I remember you were going to have science today. I'd love to hear about what you did in science whenever you feel ready.
Speaker 1So, you're just yeah, you're just sharing that, you're authentically curious, you're even pulling up a relevant memory, so you kind of get them in the ballpark, but then you build in processing time and formulation time so that they can share when they're ready, versus right now, cause the time pressure is another piece that can be really hard.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, especially for kids who've got processing challenges right and they can't process straight away.
Speaker 2Oh, I love that and I love the way that you give the context as well, because, like you say, then that gives them that idea this is where this is what we're talking about, I've pulled myself into this idea and gives them time to think about that. I love that, linda. I love that. So let's talk about some just maybe daily examples. So what if a child needs to have a bath or a shower, but every time the parent says shower time, the child who has demand avoidance has a meltdown. Excuse me, how could the parent rephrase this demand?
Speaker 1Yeah, how could the parent rephrase this demand? Yeah, so I think like what I always think about is what can we talk about outside of the moment, when there's no time pressure, versus in the moment, and like in the moment it's going to place a demand and a surprise, because you're giving new information that maybe the child's not expecting. So I would even start outside of the moment, at a time that everybody feels regulated and connected, and I might say something like oh it's, you know, we didn't have a bath last night, so I'm thinking tonight might be a good night for a bath bath last night. So I'm thinking tonight might be a good night for a bath. I just wanted to let you know what I'm thinking. I wonder what you think about that, if you might be up for a bath later tonight so you can invite their opinion and let them share. Or you could just say like this is what I'm thinking about and I just wanted to let you know and I'll follow back up with you after dinner, so something like that. So you're even just planting seeds ahead of time so the person that needs more processing time to become ready for bath time can be there by the time, like regular bath time comes.
Speaker 1But then other things to think about, like especially with PDA individuals, is just, you always want to include them in the process authentically. So with a PDA individual it really is going to be. I'm thinking tonight might be a good bath night and I'm curious if that's good for you too, and then really and truly let the child answer. With a PDA individual you have to be okay with the no, and if they were to say no, you might say well, let me know, you know, if there's a night that you might feel more comfortable doing it, because we just don't know, like, what they're thinking about or where they are in their thought process, or even why they might feel that resistance in the moment, and we can't assume that we do. We just want to give them space to kind of come to it on their own.
Speaker 1So I feel like you know, with the PDA individual you just want to give them as much autonomy, essentially within that decision making around when to take a bath, and that's what might help it to occur, because you're letting them lead the way around the when, and that might mean we're flexible, like maybe they want to do the bath in the middle of the day instead of at the end, like are we okay with that? Might we be okay with that? And that's where we get to prioritize, like what's most important that we follow this rigid schedule or that our child takes a bath, and in which case, maybe we are okay with them taking a bath at a time that they choose rather than we choose. So I feel like, yeah, pda, it's all about autonomy, and there's so much more than just the language alone that we use. It really has to be that mindset of partnership and including the child in the decision making so they feel they have autonomy, you know, in the things that we all need to get done.
Speaker 2And so do you use declarative language with all children.
Speaker 1I totally do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think it's. It's really it's just about being a respectful communicator to the person that you're with, um. So when I use it with all children, my goal is to approach them with respect, with positive intention, um, with with time, to think like that's good for everybody, not to put everybody on the spot, and I think it just establishes that foundation of mutual respect. If I respect this person, then and I show them that I care about them and the things that they care about and what they think about and what they talk about, then then it will more likely naturally develop that they care about me and we build that relationship together. Yeah, yeah, well, I was going to say Sorry, linda go on.
Speaker 1I'm like I could go on and on. I think, too, like there's just so many different things that declarative language brings Like. The first is that relationship piece and that connection and that mutual respect. But then, beyond that, you're just sharing information, maybe about what's not yet known, maybe about what we are thinking, because nobody can read each other's minds, so therefore it might make misunderstandings easier to, because we're talking openly about what we're thinking. It gives individuals information about the world, about the context that we're in, so it teaches and guides people, but the foundation is always going to be that mutual respect and that positive intention, and that we're doing this to give information and share, and that we're doing this to give information and share, not to get anything in return.
Speaker 2I love that that would be, good for all relationships? Yes, totally. Such a great adult, adults and children, so great Does it come naturally to you now. Was it a bit clunky at the beginning?
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm sure it was.
Speaker 1Like I feel like I've been doing it now Since 2007.
Speaker 1So so it comes very easily to me now, but that's not to say I don't have to think about what I want to say and how I want to say it, like I always do, because it's always going to depend on the context and it's going to depend on the person that I'm with and I have to read that person in the moment I have to attune to them and their communication.
Speaker 1So it's never a recipe or cookie cutter. It's very much in the moment. I'm going to receive the communication of the person that I'm with and then I'm going to think about how I can respond in a way that gives the information that they might need, that continues to communicate respect for them. You know, and even like nonverbal communication can really matter, like I have to make sure that I'm using connecting and positive body language, tone of voice, because, especially you know so many of the individuals that I might work with, like they're just so perceptive to all the little pieces of communication and so it all really matters just having that communicative, positive, communicative presence for the person that you're with. No, matter what.
Speaker 2So what does that mean, Linda, when you're using the nonverbals? What are some of the things that you're really mindful of in those moments?
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think too, I'll also refer you to a handout on my website called Guiding Principles when Using Declarative Language and Co-Regulation called like guiding principles when using declarative language and co-regulation. But, for example, I want to make sure I always have open, nonverbal communication. Like I'm open and curious, I'm understanding of you as a person. I'm not judging, I'm not impatient of you as a person. I'm not judging, I'm not impatient. It's not to say I don't have feelings. But even if I were to have an impatient feeling, I might think about how to communicate that in a way that is still positive and connecting versus judgmental, you know. So it's just you just want to think about your facial expression, that they're soft, that your body, your body language is open, not tense. That your tone of voice is um, like maybe neutral, maybe curious, maybe empathic, that your, that your rate of speech is slow enough that it gives them time to process what you're saying.
Speaker 2I think all those sorts of things. And what about if a parent is like in a hurry and needs to get started? Yeah, is there a place for declarative language and those soft nonverbal skills in that?
Speaker 1Yeah, soft nonverbal skills in that, yeah, and I think like in those moments I feel like pulling in co-regulation is what's really helpful. So just thinking about how to partner with the child. So say, for example, you need to move, you need to get out the door to get to school or whatever, and the parent is feeling stressed because it's getting late and they need the child to put on their shoes Like you might initially say something like oh, it's time to get on our shoes, I see your shoes right there, and the child maybe doesn't move, and then the parent's starting to feel anxious. Then I would just quickly move into partnership. So I might say something like then I would just quickly move into partnership. So I might say something like oh, let me get your shoes and I will help you put them on, or I can put them on your feet, and then maybe you can do the Velcro, or here I can hold your coat for you while you put your arms in, and you just think about how to partner in that moment, you know, in actions, for example, so that you can move through the process of what it is you need to do in a positive way.
Developing Communication Skills With Children
Speaker 1Or sometimes too, the way I think of that is when you're in those moments of transition where you feel stress. Your goal isn't to get the child to do X, y and Z. Your goal is to just create positive forward momentum as a team so you accomplish your shared goals and get to where you need to be. Like that's not the time to focus on self-care skills and the child doing it themselves. It's to focus on having a positive connection as we start our day, which means I might help you right now more than I would need to help you on a day that we both have a lot more time. But I'm prioritizing our connection and our success as a team over you doing x, y and z and I love that, because that would be different energy, you know.
Speaker 2So, when you think about I'm your, I'm your champion right now, what do you? I'm going to give you help around this, rather than, oh gosh, hurry up, do I need to help you? Like? Oh, you know how to put on your shoes, you know those types of things. It's really moving toward the goal energy. You know that energy there.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know that. That, yeah, yeah, and I find even, um, like you know, this isn't totally declarative, but it's that partnership ideas. You know, sometimes when I, when I'm getting my children out the door to school, like we're great and we get out no problem, plenty of time, but other days, like we're behind and we're rushing and my boys are maybe being a little bit pokey, like so I could be impatient, but instead in those moments I just try and say okay, like how, how can I help? What can I do to help us all get out the door. And they might say, oh, can you grab my lunchbox or can you get my backpack? Can you put my iPad in my backpack? So they can give me little jobs to help us all be successful as a team.
Speaker 2I love that. I love that it's definitely a different mindset. And, linda, what about bedtime and children who have different you know different ways of falling asleep, different times of sleeping. You know how? How could we help children around bedtime going to sleep with declarative?
Speaker 1language. Well, I think I mean, there's so many pieces to a bedtime routine that, like language alone is, is well, it's only one part of it. You know, um, and I think, like again, there's probably not a cookie cutter answer for bedtime, because it's going to depend on the child, of course. But things that I would think about are maybe noticing, together with the child, what kind of things help them feel ready for bed. And it doesn't have to be a one shot deal. It could be, you know, together, over the course of time or over, you know, maybe the course of a few days or a few weeks, you kind of just notice together what facilitates that bedtime.
Speaker 1So you could say to your child like you know, I'd love us to be in bed by nine and I'm just going to be paying attention to the things that help us both relax and be ready for bed, or the things that help you feel good about getting into bed or feeling ready, you know, and even asking them what are some of the things that are important to you to do before bedtime, and maybe they'll have ideas like I want you to read me 10 stories, or I want to listen to music, or I want you to lie down alongside me. So like no, no quick fix. But I think sometimes you can engage the child in in the process of what that bedtime routine maybe could look like for them. That will feel good for them yeah.
Speaker 2I love that and it's also helping the child be self-aware, able to think about things right. It's an amazing approach. So some parents may be listening and they might feel, oh, this isn't strict enough and um, is my child manipulating and playing me? What would you say to this?
Speaker 1yeah, well, I guess I would think, um, what's your goal like? What's your goal at the end of the day? Is your goal to have a positive connection with the? And you know, and just focusing on that first, I would say it's not that you can't have expectations or things that you hope for, so it could be something like you know, I would like us to be in bed by nine, so maybe that's the parent making that decision and then seeing if, together, they can find a way to make that happen.
Speaker 1I think, too, like when I think about setting limits, I feel like what's always really helpful for a lot of our kiddos is just to explain the why behind the limit, you know. So when you just say, do this and they don't want to do it, that can be hard. But if you say, oh, you know, this is really important to me and this is why, then more often than not, they, they can, because they understand it. They can then join in and be your partner in it. Um, so it's not that they're, they're not playing you, you're just they really. Some kids really and truly need to understand the why before they can join, like it's just their, the way their brain works, like it's gonna, it has to make sense before they can fully join. Like, not all kids are like that. Some kids do follow the direction and it is what it is. But I would say for those kids that that that doesn't work and you know and maybe they're listening to you in your podcast it's because they're searching those parents are searching for different ideas.
Speaker 1You know, I think I always go back to that piece like the child has to understand the rationale, they have to understand why this is important to us and quite often then they can partner in accomplishing that, that shared goal and do you use declarative language with your own children?
Speaker 2have you used that?
Speaker 1um, yeah, for or yep, for sure, it's not to say I'm not imperative, sometimes I am, but for sure I am. Yeah, and I think they're pretty good communicators with me, which I always feel proud of them, when you know, when they're able to explain something to me that I misunderstood from them, yeah, so I think they're thoughtful. I think we we do a pretty good job meeting both of our goals, both of our goals. You know they might want something different than I do, but if, but but, they can meet me in that, because they know, at another point in time I will meet them. Like, sometimes I'm the one that's flexible. It has to go both ways.
Speaker 1I guess that's what makes makes it a healthy relationship, and it's not that they're being manipulative, it's just that we respect each other and when they have a good idea or a good reason, I can hear that and honor that and I can be a reasonable person too.
Speaker 1It's not like life is not a line in the sand, that you always have to be on one side or another, like life is flexible and things change and and it's good to even for us to take in information that they might share and show them that we understand them. I understand that that's important to you and therefore, okay, like, yeah, sure you can stay up five minutes more, because I understand what it is that you need to do or that you need to finish, and that's important to you need to do or that you need to finish and that's important to you. Um, and then and I do think they remember that, like they remember that I'm not, I'm not like on my agenda all the time, but that I'm flexible, um, and again, I know I said this, but then it goes both ways. So then, when something is really and truly important to me, they're, they're good with it, because they know when it's really and truly important to them, I'm good with it. Are they? When it's really and truly important to them, I'm good with it.
Speaker 2Are they starting to use declarative language in their communication?
Speaker 1Oh sure, they definitely do. Yeah, for sure. Oh nice. They might say things like I mean, they're older now too, but like 12 and 15.
Speaker 2But they might say things like you know well, mom, this is what I was thinking you know, to help clarify, or this is important to me, because that kind of thing, wow, you've really set them up for life, that's. That's. That's great for a lot of relationships, right, adult relationships need those type of communication skills, because it's often the communication that breaks down. Right, that's pretty amazing. And have your kids ever caught you out saying, oh, mum, you're using that language again.
Speaker 1No, no, because it's just been there forever.
Speaker 2Yeah right, it's just the way you guys do things.
Speaker 1I love that and I would say yeah, and I would say sometimes if I do lose my temper or yell or whatever, like a part of this process is just to even repair. So maybe I bark at them because we're running late. But then we get in the car and we're on our way and I will say I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I yelled, I didn't mean to, I was just getting like anxious about getting out the door. So I always come back and when I did something that I wish I hadn't, or when I communicated in a way that was not my best, I always, I always take accountability and repair and say my bad, I'm sorry, I did that, I didn't mean to. You know, this is what was going on for me and why I did that. My bad, I'm sorry, I did that, I didn't mean to. Um, you know this is what was going on for me and why I did that and I'm sorry it's the whole family, using it like extended family.
Speaker 2Is dad around just like? Is there? Yeah?
Speaker 1I would say maybe not. I think my, my father, like their grandfather, he might try and use it in a jokey way, like you know, he's making fun of it. But um, but my husband, who this is not his natural way, like he's an engineer, you know, he just gets, gets things done and doesn't talk about it. And um and he's, he's definitely come around, he uses a lot of it. And um, and he's, he's definitely come around. He uses a lot of declarative language and he's even figured out like the other way doesn't work as well. Uh, so he, he's exercised this communication muscle and grown it a lot over the years, for sure.
Speaker 2So for someone who does have like different communication profile, like like, let's say, our engineers of the world, is it? Did that just come through observing and listening? Like, how did he learn that?
Supporting Children's Communication Development
Speaker 1Yeah, listening, I would say so, like one of my younger child. His name is Desmond and he's sometimes like, he can get sticky at times, for sure, and you're not like you are not going to change his mind. If he decides on something, he digs in and and you know, with him sometimes it might be something that, like, is important. So we, we have to figure out how to help him feel comfortable with whatever it is that he's initially saying no to, and I think my husband used to try and push through it and you know, wouldn't work. And then he's always my husband is like, yeah, your way works a lot better because I might be able to connect with him and talk with him and listen to him and understand what's going on for him and then share my information and it helps him join. But again, it's that piece of I'm listening to him first and then, after he feels heard, I can share what I'm thinking and he's at a place where he can understand it and then he's more ready to join. But you can't rush that process, you can't.
Speaker 1And I think that's what, um, what like, especially for a younger son, like that's what my husband has figured out. So like, yeah, he would. He would say like oh yeah, I, I, um, his way, his old way, doesn't work. So, yeah, I love what he used to say. Yeah, he'd be like you're the Desmond Whisperer, but now he just he tries it himself the best that he can, and when he has the patience and the wherewithal, he can do it also. But but, yeah, but when he doesn't, for example, when he doesn't have it in him or the capacity at that moment in time, he'll just tag out and ask me to help.
Speaker 2Oh, that's great we're like a partnership, which is wonderful, yeah. So let's talk a little bit. We've been talking about communication. Let's talk a little bit more about communication. So what is, as a speech language pathologist? Linda, you've mentioned it a little bit, but I want to sort of hone into it. What is important to you about a child's communication development? If they're coming to you and they've got articulation issues and maybe parents will say, oh, they're not producing their sounds properly, is it speech and how do you support parents around those questions?
Speaker 1yeah, do you mean specifically if it's speech development that they're coming for? Yes, but they might have a lot of other issues oh, um, yeah, so like they might also need autonomy and processing time and all that right um, and they might also have demand avoidance, so they might not be um.
Speaker 1Yeah, you can't really do skills training or drill work with children like that Right right, I think I'm always going to prioritise, like I think you have to just figure out what's the most important at that moment in time and if there's just one sound that's not yet there, like is it super important that we get to it right now, or are there other things that are more important, like establishing trust and connection? But if it's a child, say, for example, that their speech is very hard to understand and it's leading to a lot of communication breakdowns and misunderstandings and not successful communication, then I would want to figure out probably how to get, how to support that development but say, for example, for the PDA individual or the child who has that profile, I'm not just going to go in drilling, I'm going to go back to that reasoning and explain to them what I'm thinking. So it might be something like you know, kids develop different speech sounds and I noticed sometimes that other people misunderstand you and I know that that's hard and I'm wondering if you would like to work on your speech together so that people understand you better. So you might even just set it up like that so that the child can consent to the idea of working on their speech and probably, once you get over, get past that where they say, yes, I would like to work on that, then there's all different ways that you can go about it. But if autonomy is really important, you're not just going to jump into a drill, you're going to say you might say, well, one way that kids hone their articulation skills is through drills. And sometimes the PDA individuals are so smart and I always would bump up your language, not down, so it could even be something like you know, there's research out there that says if you do 100 trials in a setting or in a sitting, it's going to help you develop those sounds more quickly.
Speaker 1So some speech therapists do drills because they want to help kids master those sounds. Is that something that you would be interested in? So you're giving the PDA individual all the information but then ultimately the autonomy around whether they choose to join in that format or not. Like if there's some kids that, for example, they're not there yet and maybe you couldn't yet have that conversation, like at that level then and drills would feel really demanding.
Speaker 1Then really and truly I would just stick to natural environment context and natural breakdowns in communication so that when there's a breakdown it's authentic. So you misunderstood what they said authentically. And then you figure it out and then you say, oh, you know, I misunderstood you and it's because of this sound right here and I'd love to teach you how to make it in that sound, if that's okay. And then you're just plugging it into, like the real life context in a meaningful way, so it's going to make sense for that child. Real life context in a meaningful way, so it's going to make sense for that child.
Exploring Effective Communication With Children
Speaker 1But then, even like separate, separate is I'd want to make sure that, while their speech is developing in clarity, there's a good system of communication in place so that communication is successful, whether that's, you know, for example, an AAC device, or they're able to use signs or gestures, and just that all communication is honored, like whatever system they have going on, like make sure we honor that so that ultimately, at the end of the day, communication is enjoyable and not unsuccessful or yucky, you know. Unsuccessful or yucky, you know, like I think, yeah, like I think. Even with kids who are hard to understand, I always just want to create that foundation of successful communication first, so that they enjoy communicating and increase their confidence in communicating. Like sometimes you just have to start there before they start there before they feel safe enough to take a risk with speech sounds which might feel harder to them. So I feel like those are all the pieces that we have to make sure come first.
Speaker 2And I love that, and I think it's so important to let parents know that this is the way we're going to work and this is the way we work. And it's really important for children to build trust, because they're very vulnerable. They're feeling really vulnerable because some of them know that they can't articulate in a way that others do. And here's someone that's come in and said, oh, I'll help you make it better. Well, what does that mean? You know, some kids have a lot of stress around that because they felt like they've had to be fixed by others in the past. Right, so it's all about their memories. But I know you with declarative language, linda, you'd have such a beautiful way in just opening up their minds and connecting straight away. So, as a parent and someone who's passionate about communication, what are three recommendations that you could give parents whose children are not speaking yet?
Speaker 1I would just really tune in and I know this is kind of what I just said but really tune in and respond to all forms of communication. I know this is kind of what I just said, but really tune in and respond to all forms of communication. So just really take on that mindset of all forms of communication are valid. So maybe I'll. Since you're asking me for three, I'll stretch it out. So, number one, like, have an open mindset that all forms of communication are valid. Number two would be always, always, responding to the child's communication, no matter what form it takes, because again, you want that, you want to strengthen that feedback loop and their trust in communication, that communication works. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1And then, third, you know, before you even get to speech, like it's good to explore different modalities for communication, whether it's like AAC. You know, before you even get to speech, like it's good to explore different modalities for communication, whether it's like AAC, you know, an augmentative device like high-tech or low-tech picture symbols. But just, first and foremost, you want to get, you want, you want communication to be valid, you want communication to work for them and you can kind of explore, um, like, what if, what set of symbols might work well for them. First, like, not everybody is going to be a speaker, and that's okay. Um, there's lots of, you know, there's lots of ways that people can communicate.
Speaker 2Um, yeah, yeah, and I think also I love that that not everyone's going to be a speaker and that's okay and the child will be okay, and it's important for the parent to be okay around that right For themselves, cause I think that's an anxiety for parents, right.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think I think when there's stress, communication is harder and you just want communication to be easy because that's what matters most. At the heart of it is like you want that, that solid and successful communication, um first, and then the rest will follow. And, yeah, and you just don't know who kids are going to grow up to be or what their communication will be like. But there's lots of different communicators and lots of different styles. You know, there's full-time AAC users, there's part-time AAC users, there's sign language users, so, and then there's people who talk. You know, even us, if we think about it like, yes, we talk to communicate, but we also type about it, like, yes, we talk to communicate, but we also type. We also use emojis. Like you know, we communicate using um images or or gifs or gifs, however you say that word on instagram yeah definitely yeah, yeah, and it's getting more and more like more and more people are communicating online through technology.
Speaker 2A lot of people aren't speaking when they're communicating these days, I know. So and what about children with PDA characteristics and don't like demands placed on them? What would be like a couple of recommendations you could give to families around that that, oh, we have to work on them.
Speaker 1Communicating yeah, I think you have to. Well, I'm going to direct you to another resource too, because there's a lot of people that know a lot more than me about PDA, so I want to defer to the experts out there. So it could be. Pda North America has tons of great resources, including those on communication, and Sandra McConnell goes by PDA Mama Bear and she has a lot of great, very specific communication tips for PDA kids.
Acknowledging Distractions in Communication
Speaker 1But then if I were to say, just off the top of my head, I think you have to be mindful around when you place demands on kids and work hard not to and that can be with declarative language, for sure, but when you use declarative language you want to make sure that it's truly to give information and not secretly to get something, because PDA individuals are extremely sensitive to a declarative statement that feels like an underlying get you know. So an example might be if you were to say I see your coats on the hook. Like they would interpret that as a demand that you want them to get their coat, and a different way to say it, that that would leave um, that would give information and prioritize autonomy, would be something like um, you know, I noticed it's cold out today. Uh, I know sometimes you like to have your coat. If you would like to have your coat, it is on the hook. So you're just laying out the information and supporting them in that transition, but ultimately you're giving them the choice which is important for that PDA individual.
Speaker 1Yeah and so. Yeah, and I'm like I feel like we talked about a lot of different things for PDA individuals, like you have to, you just have to explain and give reason. That's important. I think you can't. You you have to always leave, leave space or prioritize autonomy and not not place that demand or not push them to do something quickly, because that will feel like loss of autonomy and linda wrapping up, what are the biggest life lessons, or what's the biggest life lesson your children have taught you about communication?
Speaker 1um, let's see that. Let's see, um, what have they taught me? Uh, I think just that it matters. I say to make sure to connect with them, to make the time to be present with them while you're communicating. I feel like truly listening to them matters.
Speaker 2Sometimes I'm distracted and I can't listen fully, but I know that I need like that's really important fully, but I know that I need, like that's really important, um, yeah, and probably important to tell them that I'm distracted now and I can't listen fully you know well, there you go totally yeah, yeah, and I do do that.
Speaker 1So thank you. Yeah, sometimes, when they're like Desmond is talking about a transformer that he wants to buy and I and I just can't take it in in my brain at that moment because I'm concentrating on driving I will, I'll say to him Desmond, I care about what you're saying, um, but I can't, I can't take it in right now. Do you want to tell me, like when we get home, and he'll say oh, yeah, yeah, he'll follow up and tell me when he gets home.
Speaker 2Definitely, at least they realize you're human as well. You're not just a communicator 24 7 um. It's so important that they realize that you've got your needs as well and you need to have time to do what you need to do in that moment. Yeah, linda murphy, what can I say? Um, I think I have just. You know, I've just had a beautiful hour of your wonderful calming effect on me. Definitely, and I'm hoping that you know the parents and caregivers and therapists and anyone that's listening to this podcast. Can, you know, go away? I'll leave all the references that you've given in the show notes and also the name of your wonderful book. Thank you so much and thank you for all the wonderful work you do for the children and caregivers and everyone that has communication issues in the world, and I know in Australia we do follow you and we do. I've done some of the training that you've done and everything else. So thank you again for being on the podcast.
Speaker 1Yeah, thank you so much. It was really lovely to be here and you're very, very kind, and it's a great way to end my day. Thank you, thank you.
