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The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Welcome to The Empowered Parent Podcast.
This podcast is a space for parents to learn, reflect, and grow.
Each week, we explore topics that help parents understand themselves and their children more deeply - from communication and connection, to supporting neurodivergent development at home and in the community.
We’ve had wonderful conversations with experts, parents, and professionals - including speakers from the Neurodivergence Wellbeing Conference, and a special series following one mum’s journey in unschooling her child.
Every episode is here to inspire curiosity, compassion, and confidence in your parenting journey.
Don’t forget to follow along, share your reflections, and join the conversation.
You can connect with me at danabaltutis.com or mytherapyhouse.com.au.
Let’s celebrate neurodivergence.
Let’s celebrate belonging.
The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Episode 68: Kerry Herbert (Early Childhood Teacher) - The Transformative Power of Play in Early Childhood Development
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Kerry Herbert opens up about her 40-year journey as an early childhood teacher and her passionate belief in the power of play. With a twinkle in her eye and wisdom gained from decades of working with young children, Kerry shares why she considers play "the highest form of research," echoing Einstein's famous quote.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Kerry's ability to demystify the developmental stages of play. She expertly guides us through the progression from exploratory and solitary play to more complex cooperative interactions, while emphasizing that children naturally move back and forth between these stages as they encounter new situations. This insight alone helps parents understand why their child might seem to "regress" in certain play contexts.
Kerry challenges conventional thinking about sharing, explaining that it's not always developmentally appropriate to expect young children to share. She introduces the concept of a child's "play history"—the unique experiences and associations they bring to each play scenario that shape their responses. This fresh perspective invites parents to view children's reluctance to share not as defiance, but as a natural part of development related to concepts like object permanence and time perception.
Perhaps most reassuring is Kerry's advice for parents who feel awkward or inexperienced with play. She encourages starting where you're comfortable, gradually expanding your play repertoire by observing your child's reactions, and remembering that different family members can contribute valuable elements to a child's play experiences. Through vivid descriptions that bring play scenarios to life, Kerry demonstrates how simple interactions—like matching a child's jumping rhythm with a drumbeat—can build connection and communication pathways.
Whether you're preparing your child for kindergarten, supporting a sensory-seeking child, or simply wanting to enrich family playtime, this conversation offers practical wisdom delivered with genuine warmth. Visit our website to learn more about consulting with Kerry to develop personalized play strategies for your child's unique needs.
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
Meet Kerry Herbert, The Play Guru
Speaker 1Hi Kerry Herbert, Welcome back to the Empowered Parent Podcast. You are an early childhood teacher at my therapy house and all the children, the families, the staff and, I think, all the little gnomes outside everybody loves you. You're always happy and sunny and we just think you are an asset to the organization and you're such a great champion for children's play and children's well-being and I'm so excited to have you here today to share your wisdom about play and introduce yourself to our listeners, because I know there might be a lot of families that are listening that know you as Kerry the person who plays with my child but don't really know much about you. As Kerry Herbert, you're often described, like I said, as the play guru, the sunshine, the fun person at my therapy house, and all children love coming to see you and they just run in into your treasure trove of toys and adventures. So welcome Kerry.
Speaker 2Hello Dana. Thank you so very much. That was a very lovely welcome.
Speaker 1Great. So to begin with, kerry, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? How long have you been an early childhood teacher, where have you worked and what inspired you to choose this profession?
Speaker 2hmm, uh, yes, I've been teaching since 1984. Um, I decided in about year six, um, that's when mum remembers going to a parent-teacher interview and the teacher said she said that she wants to be a kidney teacher and I sort of stuck with that idea. I remember finding one of those old trifold pamphlets from the kindergarten union about being a kidney teacher and I just held on to those. So right through high school I really tailored my learning to get into Teachers College and I did some music course and I was able to go to a local primary school and take little lessons and work with the children there as part of my secondary schooling. So yeah, it was very early that I decided I want to be a kidney teacher.
Speaker 1And why is that Like? It's like a calling for you, isn't it?
Speaker 2Yeah, well, I love to play still and I do have fond memories of my kindy time. I think I was probably one of the the running around ones and climbing, and but I do remember lots of things. I just loved being at kindy myself. Um, and do you love little children? I love children, yes, yes yes I do love working with children.
Speaker 2I love being with them and just how much they bring things to life and different their creative ideas. Yeah, oh, I didn't think that that was going to go that way, but that's a wonderful thing. Let's move that way, so it can be unpredictable that way, and I just love working with them and being part of their new ideas.
Speaker 1And I love, kerry, the way you are so respectful about children and I know that you know if there's a child that's very, very movement-based and doesn't attend for very long to things, you will always say, oh yeah, he was very busy today, he was very busy and that's so respectful, not saying, oh yes, he wasn't attending or he's got an attention disorder or deficit or whatever it is. But you always look to the strengths of children and describe them as that, like little wondrous souls and stars on this earth Very much so and, yes, sometimes the busyness is the way they're engaging at the time.
Speaker 2So just working with them at their pace and following their ideas and then looking for little spots where you might extend an idea or introduce a new idea and see where they go with that. Or, if they're not ready, pull back and wait and keep working with the idea that they're going with.
Speaker 1Yeah, and also, what I love about you, kerry, is the children that find it very, very hard to engage with anyone in their lives. They seem to gravitate towards you and you're always bringing from home these little treasures that might enhance your interaction, enhance your relationship with the children. Do you have a treasure trove at home?
Speaker 2Oh my goodness At home. Yes, I have many parts of the house with treasures and, yeah, I find that when I'm out shopping markets side of the road then I get inspired and often I tend to think, as children do, creatively that something might be used in a different way, not what its intention is supposed to be, what it might be, its actual function, but then, oh look, this lends itself to being used like this. Yeah, so often the different op shops know me and they'll think, oh well, let's put that aside, because I'm sure Carrie's going to think of something to go with it. Oh, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1So that would probably be a good thing for families to know as well. Op shops are treasure troves for children, right Very much, and they don't have to go and buy the expensive toy. But they might find something in an op shop.
Speaker 2And also following children's interests, because I might that sensory motor child who's really just needing to keep moving around but they're very interested in, often, dinosaurs, it can be a popular one. So then, bringing the dinosaurs in, and then the dinosaurs also moving around and on the slide and in the swing and jumping and being part of the child's world, and then extending, and then that dinosaur might get hungry or need to go to the toilet or those sorts of daily living skills that the child is familiar with or perhaps working through, like toilet training, and so the dinosaur can sort of take the child through the steps of going to the toilet.
Speaker 1And you definitely have all the toilet paraphernalia with you. So you've got toilets, toilet seats, toilet paper, you've even got poos or faeces and you do a lot of toilet play, don't you, kerry?
Speaker 2yes, yes, it's very much part of play and very much part of what children are having to learn to, to do how their body feels, and then the steps involved in going to the toilet and and there might be fears in in different sounds and smells, and of the toilet. So working through those in play helps the child become more familiar and more comfortable and practice the sequence in a comfortable way with the character, whoever their favourite character might be, whether it's Bluey or a dinosaur or a favourite animal, another favourite animal, yep, so they can be going.
Speaker 2That's, I'm just thinking, just adding that they're model poos. Yes, they're model poos, plastic or rubber or something that's right.
Speaker 1They're model poos they're rubber, plastic, yeah. So the other thing I've heard about play and I've read lately is that play definitely can break through anxiety. The other thing I've heard about play and I've read lately is that play definitely can break through anxiety. So children who are highly anxious and always, you know, their whole body is triggered by fight, flight or fright play, and humour seems to just melt that away. Have you found that?
Speaker 2Yes, yes, because we can go at their pace, not pushing or rushing or having expectations, but just working with them where they're at and repeating which is really important.
Speaker 2So keep playing same scenarios out, yeah it may be the same sequence the dinosaur goes for a jump, then down same sequence the dinosaur goes for a jump, then down the slide. The dinosaur goes for a jump, then down the slide. And it may seem like that's happening many, many times, but that's really important. And then once that becomes really solid and they're comfortable with that, then you can have little times, little variations on that, can have little times, little variations on that. But they feel that it's predictable. They know a dinosaur is going to do it. So that can relieve that anxiety until they're ready to add a little something like dinosaur might kick the ball on the way or something, yeah, right, or roll down the slide yeah.
Speaker 1Or roll down the slide yeah, or roar down the slide, yeah, just adding little things.
Speaker 2and then the child's like oh, okay, and then becoming a little bit more flexible, a little bit more adaptable and still feeling in control and comfortable, that dinosaur's part of their play.
How Play Develops Through Childhood
Speaker 1I love that. I love that, I love that. So let's go back to kindy. And I know that some parents listening might be thinking about oh wow, my child is going to be going to kindy. They're going to be starting next year or next term, I'm not really sure. Are they ready? What are some of the most important things parents need to know before their child starts kindy?
Speaker 2um, visit kindy's go when you're thinking, yep, it's time. Looking towards the, the children going to kindy, and also work back from when they you think they're going to go to school and start. So, depending on where they're at in their development, you may be thinking they're not going to start school until they're six, so they are entitled to have a year of kindy before going to school. So tailor that year for when school starting time is.
Speaker 1And is kindy really important. When school starting time is and is kindy really important, Like you know, some parents will go straight to school with their child at reception. How important is kindy.
Speaker 2Yep, kindy is really important. It's not compulsory at the moment and starting school is compulsory at six, six um but it does give the child time for working more with others in groups and other children and that social um and in different places too, different situations um, and developing their play. So they may still be exploring but moving through that solitary play and then parallel playing next to someone and then becoming more towards the cooperative play and joining in with play. So they get to move through those stages in groups, small groups um at kindy.
Speaker 1it just means that there's more chance to be able to do that together and and I guess it would be different than playing with your siblings because, uh, you've got all these different types of kids profiles, unpredictable. You have to learn how to read intent, so they probably get really good at the social skills and communicating right before they go into school and then they have to add on all the other stuff, all the academics and the higher level thinking.
Speaker 2Is that right? Yeah, and it is very different playing with each child, because each child brings with them different cultural backgrounds, different family backgrounds, different play ideas, different family, backgrounds Moves character Certainly. Emotions yes, personalities yeah and, like some, have come from a family perhaps where a different grandmother is living at home with them and those sorts of things. So the structure of all the families will be quite different.
Speaker 2So their home experiences will be quite different. So as a kindy teacher, you're very aware that each child is coming to kindy with different ideas and experiences and knowledge and so you're aware of when you're setting up your program, how each child and different learning styles. So some will be more moving and engaging, but needing to move or engage for a short time and then needing to move have a big body movement break.
Speaker 1I remember when I started kindy I did not know how to speak English at all because at home we only spoke Lithuanian. So I'm really glad I went to kindy because I would have started school not knowing how to speak English. So that was my time to figure out out. Oh, everybody speaks a different language out here, away from the house. So that was great, and I remember the. The thing that I remember most about the kindy was an old red telephone booth at the end of the garden area and I remember we were in and out of that telephone booth talking on the phone all the time. So I must have been a communicator from way back. Definitely, yeah, wow. And Kerry, I know some parents get confused about kindy because there's childcare and then there's kindy rooms and then there's the state education department, kindy, like does it matter where you go? Does it matter?
Speaker 2It would. That would need to be a personal each individual would go and visit a kindy or childcare or the place that they think they'd like to do preschool learning. So yeah, and then get a few. I think it's really good to go visit a few and decide what's going to really be the right fit for your family.
Speaker 1And also, I guess if the child has any special needs or is neurodivergent, then those questions would need to be answered as well and asked right about how they can be supported in those environments.
Speaker 2And whether you're looking at starting kindy earlier for early entry, if there's any particular special needs, and getting in touch.
Preparing Your Child for Kindergarten
Speaker 1So it's where it's thinking when I was saying look at schooling and then work back, okay, and if you're thinking they're going to need early entry to kindy or extended time of kindy, those sorts of things, so it's good to start some visits and then have conversations with kindy staff and then work out what's going to fit yeah, and kerry, if, like, there's parents listening and they wanted to consult you around their I don't know their questions, their problems or their worries around kindy, and maybe they've gone out and they really don't know where to go, or they want to go out, they don't know what to ask would you be available to do a consult? Oh?
Speaker 2yes, I could do that. Yeah, that's great helpful. That's great and um.
Speaker 1So we talk a lot about play at my therapy house and I know we are a very play-based service and everything else, and you did touch on this a little bit. But let's summarize that in your own words, kerry why is play so important for young children? I'm sure a lot of parents ask that why is it so important?
Speaker 2um, I think I like to think, uh, that play is definitely hands-on, which is really important with learning. So you can just hear things but you can forget them. If you're seeing them, then that helps you remember more, but if you're doing something, then you get a lot more understanding. So I think that really hands-on with play helps with the learning. I like I was thinking. There's a couple of quotes I really like.
Speaker 1One's.
Speaker 2Albert Einstein, the physicist from 30s, 40s, 50s, and he says play is the highest form of research.
Speaker 1Oh, I love that. I really love that. Play is the highest form of research. So we've got little researchers out there, yeah, all the time, just busy, busy. Love that. I really love that. Play is the highest form of research.
Speaker 2So we've got little researchers out there, yeah, all the time just busy, busy, busy. If you just sort of sit back, observe, it may look like they're just wandering around the yard or something. But if you do take time to stop and look, you'll see they're looking at the ground or they're watching another group and wondering how can they join that group. So it's a social skill at kindy learning. How do you join in with another? Group that are playing Yep, so I really love that idea.
Speaker 1I love that quote they're researching all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 2They're working out for their whole development physically thinking skills, social, emotional, social all of time. Yeah, they're working out for their whole development physically thinking skills, social, emotional, social all of that. That's what I love about play is it brings it all together. And I also love gym Piaget, from back in the 50s 60s psychologist did a lot of studies of child development and I loved his quote in order to think things through, children need to play things through.
Speaker 1Oh, I love that. In order to think things through, children need to play things through. We need to have these on our walls.
Speaker 2Kerry, I love these Well these are a couple I just keep putting in my diary every year because I just think they really give a big foundation for me of what I think about how important play is. Yeah, it can, and it is the whole child, using the whole body, body awareness, and it's just working with the child where they're at, looking at what they're doing and then joining in and being with them and just expanding on that, extending that, enjoying being with them in the moment.
Speaker 1And yeah, and play is very in the moment, isn't it? And then children start to learn how to plan their play and how to play out events that happen in the past. I remember when I used to come home, my sister and I used to always play out everything we used to do out in the community. We used to come home and play it out. Or children learn to practice playing out something that might happen in the future. So there's just no end to it, is there?
Speaker 2that's right, it's a yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's just and what age should children stop playing kerry? Never, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2Well, I haven't yet so, um, I think play starts to look a bit different. Yeah, as an adult, because play becomes your, perhaps your leisure or your hobby or your sport, but you're still sort of being playful. But and then if you have children enjoying playing with them? Yeah um yeah I think never. What was the saying? I think it's from Step Brothers or something never lose your dinosaur is another thing that I live by, because it's just yeah, it's important to always be in touch with that little playfulness.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that. So when do children actually start to play? Does play begin? I know that. Um, when I was studying, I thought play begins with pretend play with the cups of tea. Um, or are there other early forms of play that come first, like the baby? You know, how does the baby play, I think.
Speaker 2Well, even the baby is active in the womb.
Speaker 1Oh right, Doing somersaults.
Speaker 2Yeah, developing their senses and starting yep, and definitely that movement, that body awareness, and they'll find their toes and grab on, or that, sometimes ultrasounds of seeing baby with a thumb yeah.
Speaker 1I think the sucking reflex, a thumb?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think the sucking reflex comes later, yes, but they're just that body awareness and moving around and kicking around as their senses are developing. So I think that's where play is starting already.
Speaker 2Yeah, right, I love it, yeah, and then just going through the stages of play, definitely starting with their senses and body awareness, and just those baby play was very much body singing, little rhymes, like just holding baby's hands, even you know very early, just singing a little song like this Clap handies for daddy. Till daddy comes home, bring emma some apples and mommy some too, or something like that just simple little rhymes, but you're holding the body there's many different senses that you can bring into the play.
Speaker 2So there's the, the music. So they're using ears. You can hear it, you can feel it in the hands. You can see mummy's face smiling and facial expression.
Speaker 1So you've got that social interaction and you can yeah, I love that just very, very early, just little, little babies from newborns.
Speaker 2I would say yeah, and they do.
Speaker 2They look at things and you know, if you give them something to hold, they'll hold it and then they'll drop it and all sorts of things right, yeah, early cause and effect dropping throwing, and then you'll pick it up or uh it, now it's over there, or the yeah and just grabbing, like if you're touching their body, just naming you know toes, or those early blowing on tummy raspberries and that's all very playful peekaboos yeah and what I've noticed, like I was with a friend, six-month-old, the other day and you know she was picking things up and dropping them, picking things up and dropping them, but it wasn't the same until I joined her, like not picking things up but with my boys and going, oh boy, I can't drop, you know.
Speaker 1so I was doing some of the things and I've seen you, you've been my model working with some of the older kids that are at that level of play and I sometimes think just giving a baby a rattle is not enough. You've really got to stay with it and really join in the play. Doesn't mean that you've got to touch the toy, but just being there with your tone of voice and your body posture and your eyes and your emotions, that really supports the baby. To even extend that Is that right. And regulate through play, yes definitely.
Speaker 2I also think yeah, because you're the best toy in the room, right yeah, I love that. And just adding to, if they've got something, if they're holding a rattle, you might just also touch their hand.
Speaker 1So they're feeling that sensory touch and and say, oh, shake, shake, shake, shake, yeah I love that and I love that time because you know babies love to hear that musical time. Um, kerry, do you, um, do you assess children's play like, have you, have you worked to assess where children are at in their play?
Speaker 2I think, yeah, from uh, early days teachers, college, when we were learning the stages of play. So children will work through um like first exploratory, second solitary, so just playing on their own. Then parallel play, maybe copying, modelling, playing, next to not necessarily joining together as yet. Then interactive associative play and then the real cooperative collaborative type play. So that's generally the sort of five stages children are moving through.
The Stages of Play Development
Speaker 2But, they don't move through one and you tick it off and think, right next, okay, it's come and go from all of them. And that's for life really for adults, because if you have a new idea or you're trying a new activity, then you're back to exploring again. So each new idea and each new situation, each new thing, plate thing or whatever you've brought along, needs time for exploration. So you need to go back to that and then move through.
Speaker 1So I'm looking at your posters here, kerry, which I love, and they are on our website with the different types of play. What's coming to mind as I'm looking at them? A lot of parents come and you know their child is like five or six and parents are really worried that their child isn't sharing in their play. And when I look at your posters, I mean level five is cooperative, collaborative, um. Level four, interactive, associative. Maybe, but often the children that are coming they're just at the exploratory and the solitary, solitary and the parallel play, and I would have thought that sharing doesn't really come in until later.
Speaker 2That's right sharing and also needs to be looked at sort of as in it's not always the right thing to share. Like sometimes there's not sharing.
Speaker 1I don't like sharing a lot of my stuff.
Speaker 2No, no, so um that each individual situation might require sharing, or might yeah need uh to work through that. Not sharing at the moment, or?
Speaker 1I love that.
Speaker 2That sort of thing too. So, yeah, sharing is a tricky one because it can look like a negative type response to something. I think, yeah, we all have our things that we're like oh, I don't really want to share that.
Speaker 1Yeah, I don't want to give it away, and you know when you're talking sorry, kerry, to interrupt when you're talking. What it's reminding me of is there are some adults that will just give everything away and they don't have boundaries of giving things away, right, but then they think, oh, I've got nothing. So that's oversharing, right, and also oversharing in information when we're talking. As a speech pathologist, that's what I'm thinking. But if we teach, like, the boundaries around sharing, that could also be transferred to communication, that I share only this information, these things, with these people, but not with the others. So it could be the same in play, right? Yeah, I just had that aha moment right now.
Speaker 2That's why I love talking to you. Yeah, and also with the sharing, I was thinking that part of development is that object permanence. So they won't understand that necessarily the concept of sharing means you have a turn, then I'll have a turn, then you'll have a turn, then I'll have a turn. It might just mean, oh, you've taken it, now it's gone. Ah, yes, and my idea's gone too. It's all finished and they're not understanding that object like it can come back.
Speaker 1Yeah, and objects can come back, or they're still there when you don't see them, right?
Speaker 2that's what object permanence is yeah, wow. So there's different concepts to work through and intent.
Speaker 1They can't read the intent of the other person so that you are going to give it back because maybe they haven't had that experience of something coming back. They might not understand the sequence of time, so just letting it go for one second might feel like a lifetime to a child.
Speaker 2Yes, yes and that can be experiences from their past experiences too, what sort of each each person really has like a play history, or each child arrives with a play history that they carry with them. So depending on on what's happened at home may guide their. You'll see those sorts of reactions at kindy if they're with siblings that just keep taking their stuff all the time.
Speaker 1It's like a play map, that sort of thing. That's their map, yeah.
Speaker 2So they'll be basing. They can only really base their what's happening in the situation from what they've experienced already, I get that.
Speaker 1I get that. So what happens when a child prefers only sensory or movement-based play, kerry, are there some children who don't seem to like traditional types of play?
Speaker 2Are there some children who don't seem to like traditional types of play. I tend to add to their play. So if they're using their very sensory base and matching their play, first keeping it matching their pace, like, say, they're jumping on a trampoline.
Speaker 1that's all they want to do.
Speaker 2Yeah, and you might just then add to that right, they really want that feeling of jumping on the trampoline. They're comfortable, they're seeking that movement.
Speaker 2So you might add to that and like, again, adding other senses, you might add some musical instruments and add a drum beat or some bells that shake and match their pace, their rhythm, yep, and so it's just adding or adding later, so more the senses first, so it might be something visual or something a sound, and then it might be a character that might join them, so join their sensory, and then slowly just introducing other ideas and songs they love songs.
Speaker 1You know, sometimes kids love not us singing traditional songs but just making it up, yeah, name or something, and then the go, and the stop and the anticipation, right, right, and you're right, I have noticed, because I sometimes, as a speech pathologist, because I'm a symbolic thinker, because words are symbolic and representational and so are toys, I tend to jump in too quickly with the symbolic play. You know, I go, oh well, he's jumping, I'm going to get bluey and jump. And the child's not ready for that, they're nowhere near ready, they just want to experience that themselves and then they might like you say, they might like the music, the songs, it's all about them, that ego, solitary play, exploratory play. And I'm going, oh, let's do some interactive, associative or parallel play with Bluey. And they're like no, no, no, bluey's going to take the Bluey, and they just chuck it down on the floor.
Speaker 2Yeah, not ready for that yet, no, and you might be able to expand, just adding perhaps a drum beat with their jumping, but then they might stop jumping and you stop, yes, and then, or perhaps you had some, it doesn't have to be a drum, it might just be something else in the room. Like you might have had some building blocks out, yeah, and then they've gone for a jump, yeah, and you might grab two of the blocks and tap them together on their jumps Right, and when they stop jumping, you stop yeah, Really emphasise the stop yeah.
Speaker 2And then they look and think oh, and then you start again and they pick up on the. Hey, I'm controlling this game.
Speaker 1And I love like, because people can't see your face, but your face is always very playful. Your body and face is playful. It's not serious. And so children are learning to be playful, aren't they? And silly, because I think that's really important Fun and joy very important.
Speaker 2Fun and joy.
Speaker 1yes, have you in your adventures of play, have you found different cultures, experience play differently, or understand play differently? Or when you see children from different cultures, are you finding them? They just all love to play. It's parents that are often, you know, stuck in their play ideas.
Cultural Differences in Play
Speaker 2A bit of both I mean different cultures definitely have different resources available, different values, different expectations. So there is definitely cultural differences and being aware that each child will bring with them different knowledge and experiences, but, just, I feel, providing that warm, welcoming, safe place and tailoring to each child's learning style which will vary across the board different cultures anyway and their needs, and then work closely with the families to understand the cultural differences, even if it's just like the names of things.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2If you've got a game happening with, I can't think of something that would be.
Speaker 1Like even foods right. Different foods yes.
Speaker 2What do you call? Just looking at the parents saying what do you usually call this? Yes or are they familiar with this?
Speaker 1Yes, do they know about that? Or people like the auntie, the uncle, the grandfather, the grandmother. Yeah, the names right, definitely.
Speaker 2And sometimes the children might mix their language with English so they might be using some home language with the English. So just looking to parents as that resource to help give translation really of what were they saying here, so that you can keep going with the play, but you understand what their idea was, because they've used a different language what their idea was, because they've used a different language.
Speaker 1Kerry, have you found that? You know? I've had some parents in the room and they've told me that you know they didn't grow up playing much themselves and now feel unsure how to support their child's play. What would you say to those parents? Is it ever too late to learn how to how to play?
Speaker 2uh, no, I don't think so and I think, but again, as you do with the child, you would go with where the parents at too, without pushing pushing them out of their comfort zone. Um and but each parent person has their own interest and style, and so, asking them about that and then using that as part of the play If they're really feeling uncomfortable that they can't join in then modelling the play and then they're picking up and seeing how their child is reacting or being part of the play and then just gradually allowing them, as they see the results, to become part of that at the level that they're comfortable with because, again, they have their play history.
Speaker 2So that's individual and cultural and depends on their family background. Individual and cultural and depends on their family background, um yeah, so just helping them be involved but also being aware of how they're feeling in the situation, do you find mums and dads play differently, and is that okay? Yes, it's good in many ways, um, because dad tends to be, because dad tends to be not always, but sometimes the rough and tumble guy.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And that's very important, and also without being stereotypical but, boys tend to need dad to model that rough and tumble and then and safely right. Yeah because dad helps them learn when it's time to stop or how to finish the game or those sorts of limitations and boundaries are really, really important for boys to be learning. It doesn't have to be Dad, because Dad might not be around.
Speaker 1Could be Mum.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I know, in my case that was the thing, and I did WWE wrestling with my boys. Okay, we had tag teams until they started getting too big and then I was worried I was going to get injured, but they were good at learning because we had done a lot of practice and they would learn when to stop. That's it, you. You need to look after the other person because you were a single mum, right, yeah, and learning the other person's perspectives and and being aware of another person.
Speaker 2So the rough and tumble play is really important for all children too, but it tends to be more boys Well, not always actually.
Speaker 1No, not always when I'm thinking about it.
Speaker 2It's not always. It can be over across the board, but that rough and tumble is very important if anyone can be doing that.
Speaker 1And mums they do more pretend play like cups of tea and cooking, or yeah, I guess again, that depends on home situations as well too.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, as well too, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1But those sorts of nurturing type play is important for boys, girls, everyone is hopefully learning, so it's almost like children, are learning about their masculine and feminine energies and how to integrate them and to be able to express both sides right the nurturing and the protective sides.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, that's wonderful.
Supporting Communication Through Play
Speaker 1Kerry, I want to go back to a question that comes up often for my therapy house. So sometimes parents come to my therapy house asking for help with things like speech for their child or handwriting. They want their child to talk more clearly or learn to write, so they're asked to see a speech pathologist or an occupational therapist. Do you help children with these kind of skills through play and, if so, how does that actually work?
Speaker 2Yes, that's what. I get the wonderful that I can bring it all together right um and working as a team here at my therapy house um and doing co-therapy. So the speech pathologist, occupational therapist and development through play. We work very closely together. We may have two therapists in the room um looking at it through our particular lens, but also lots of collaboration and lots of talking about it and I know I can go. If I haven't got that ot in my room, I can then go and discuss this and add it to the play and bring it all together.
Speaker 2Through my background with early childhood development, understanding that for handwriting the whole big body is very, very important for us. To stabilise it right to be aware yeah, develop and grow the gross motor, big body actions before you start developing down into the fine motor.
Speaker 2So I have the early childhood child development background so I can add that and then I've got the wonderful rest of the team to help add their parts in speech and OT and then just bringing it together and then working with the family as part of the team as well, so we can work with the whole child.
Speaker 1And as a speech pathologist, I've noticed that there's some kids that won't actually develop their communication as fast as they will when they're playing with you. Do you know what I mean? Like we use play in speech pathology all the time. But I think it's the way you use it, especially Kerry, the way you use it and how you keep adapting and being flexible and you're so quick at you know opening up these other ideas for children. I think children just feel very relaxed and can communicate so well with you. So I feel like you're always working on their speech and language, just indirectly yes, definitely always.
Speaker 1And um oh, I was, I think, allowing because even if they're non-speaking, we still can be playing there's still communication in different ways sounds, gestures, facial expressions, body movements and it's great that when you're working with a speech pathologist, because then you can think about okay, what words do we use? Um, do we introduce a voice output communication device? You know those type of things. What are some of the other ways of communicating that we can? What are we looking at in terms of the child's comprehension or understanding of what's happening in that moment right?
Speaker 2Yeah, and using them in a playful way. So if we're using a voice output communication device, how can we playfully include that so we might just have it there with, say, emotions and feelings, and while we're playing the characters might be trying to solve a problem, but you can just go and press.
Speaker 1I'm feeling really confused right now and you can press the button confused.
Speaker 2Yes, and so you can just add that speech element into the play as the characters are working out or as yourselves, as part of the role playing.
Speaker 1I love that I could be talking to you for hours about play. Kerry, I just want to ask you very quickly what was your favourite toy when you were a child one one. Oh, I didn't. I didn't write this question for you. I want to get you on the spot.
Speaker 2What was your favorite toy? What did you? Like playing with um, you had a similar question. I was thinking because I, when I think of play, I think of outside nature, uh, trees, pets, um, yeah, right, so so was it a tree neighbors? It was just being outside the experience, so yes, I think I just loved to make up play um outside a lot of the time, yeah, so that's really hard to think of.
Speaker 1I'm the same, you know now that you've said it, and I was just thinking about it myself we had a tree at the front of the house and it used to have these little blossoms and that you could just rub. It was a birch tree and you could just rub right, and then there was all this fairy dust and we used to play with that birch tree all the time, and next to it was another huge bush with and we made a hole in it and so we used to go in there and we used to pretend that we're in a castle and we have to go and get the dust. That is what I remember about my play outside as well.
Speaker 2So much outside and so much bike riding up and down the road right, yeah, we had a bird's tree too, actually that dust and we had another tree that had these things that dropped off and they looked like fingernails and you could put them on your fingers and you'd have it.
Speaker 1So that was lots of play with those sorts of things too, so very much nature. I love that, I love that, and those memories always bring a smile to my face. So finally, kerry, what would you love every parent to know about play? What is one thing that you would like parents to go away with from this podcast, even if they forget everything else?
Speaker 2I've got more than one thing written down here.
Speaker 1Oh, something I haven't said already, something I haven't said already, go with your heart or be playful, or I think going at the child's pace, right being with them and just allowing the play to develop and not being prescriptive that a certain toy game item needs to be used.
Speaker 2How it perhaps is supposed to be, or its function.
Speaker 1Or the instructions, yeah, or you don't have to read instructions.
Speaker 2No, I get a game off the shelf but I don't actually. I'll take all the bits out and think now I want to use this for something totally different. Yeah, I love it um yep, so just being open and not holding back a child who's decided to pick something up and use it in a different way, then, just like that's exciting, wow, let's. Oh, that's, I didn't think so.
Speaker 1Basically, you're saying be in the moment and look through the lens of wonderment, definitely, and creativity and creativity, definitely. Kerry herbert, thank you so much for coming today and I know this is a hard task for you because you're very playful and this is very cognitive, like I'm asking questions, you're giving answers, but I think if I was playing with you, you would be playing all this out in a very different way very quickly.
Speaker 1So thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. And if parents would like to communicate with Kerry, maybe you've got some. You want to have some ideas about your child and you really don't know how to play with them or where to start. Or you're thinking, wow, I really want to get them something, but I'm not sure what to get. It would be really good even if you could send a little video in. Go to our website, you know contact us online form and you could have one or two consults with Kerry to really I'm sure she would love that.
Speaker 2I love petsy videos. Join in the play.
Speaker 1And you know Kerry is one of these people, that she's a rarity in our world and we are so lucky to have her. So definitely reach out and I'm sure Kerry would love to work with you and to help you, help your child be playful. Thank you so much, Diana.
Speaker 2Thank you, thank you.
