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The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Welcome to The Empowered Parent Podcast Series 2.
This short series is inspired by the Australia and New Zealand Inaugural Neurodivergence and Wellbeing Conference.
Over the next few episodes, we’ll be shining a light on what it truly means to belong, and celebrating the lives, strengths, and stories of neurodivergent people.
I’ll be speaking with leaders, advocates, and thinkers from across Australia and New Zealand who are pioneering change. Together, we’ll explore how families, schools, and communities can move beyond old deficit views - and instead see neurodivergence as a vital part of human diversity.
This series is about hope, celebration, and possibility. It’s about recognising that there is a place in the world for everyone - and that when we create belonging, we all thrive.
Don’t forget to follow along, share your reflections, and join the conversation. You can connect with me at danabaltutis.com or mytherapyhouse.com.au
Let’s celebrate neurodivergence. Let’s celebrate belonging.
The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Season 2 NEURODIVERSITY Episode 2: Mind the Gaps - Dr. Vanessa Spiller on Neurodiversity (Clinical Psychologist)
What if challenging behaviours aren't problems to fix, but signals showing us how a child's brain works? Dr Vanessa Spiller, clinical psychologist and FASD expert, revolutionises our understanding of neurodivergent children through her groundbreaking "Mind the Gaps" model.
Drawing from both professional expertise and lived experience as a foster carer, Dr Spiller explains that neurodiversity simply means brain-based differences - everyone has strengths and weaknesses. The real challenge often lies in the gap between what children are asked to do and the abilities they actually possess. Her approach visualises these abilities as a wheel - for neurodivergent children, this wheel resembles something from the Flintstones: jagged, bumpy, and making progress difficult without proper support.
Dr Spiller shares powerful insights about executive functioning - the mental flexibility, impulse control, and ability to link cause and effect that many neurodivergent children struggle with. Rather than forcing children into environments that don't fit their brains, she advocates for finding windows into learning through special interests. "If a child loves trains," she explains, "using Thomas the Tank Engine scenarios to teach cause and effect will be far more effective than abstract examples."
Her most heartfelt message speaks directly to parents: "You are the greatest resource your child has." Not the speech therapist, not the psychologist, but you. This shifts the focus from parents feeling they need to be the perfect solution to recognising themselves as an ongoing, evolving resource - experimenting, learning, and modelling the very flexibility we hope to teach our children.
Whether you're a parent, educator, or therapist, this conversation will transform how you understand and support neurodivergent children. Subscribe now to hear more episodes that help build a world where every child truly belongs.
https://www.fasdtrainingaustralia.com/Mind-the-Gaps-book
https://www.amazon.com.au/Explained-Brain-Workbook-Educators-everything/dp/0995353212
https://www.fasdtrainingaustralia.com/
https://everymomentmatters.org.au/vanessas-story/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
Today I'm joined by Dr Vanessa Spiller, clinical psychologist, educator trainer, who has dedicated her career to supporting children and young people with complex needs, including fetal alcohol spectrum disorder or FASD, and other forms of neurodivergence. So welcome, Dr Vanessa, and I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Dana, and thank you for having me. I can't wait to get into our conversation.
Speaker 1:I can't either, because I heard you at the Neurodivergence and Wellbeing Conference and I was so in awe of how you look at people who've got some complex challenges and how you help other people in their life understand them, and I thought I've got to have you on the podcast because, vanessa, just in one little place is not enough. I've got to put you all over the place.
Speaker 2:Well, you may come to regret that, dana, but, um, thank you very much. It was. It was lovely and and we can do a bit of mutual admiration because I got to listen to you speak as well and and hear about all the fabulous things that you're doing in the ways that I guess you structure and have, I guess, created a little universe around supporting people with neurodivergence as well.
Speaker 1:So I think we're a good combination, oh, definitely, definitely, and so when I first met you at the Neurodivergence and Wellbeing Conference, you presented your Mind the Gaps model, and I was so struck by how practical and compassionate this model is and I have ordered the book and we are going to be applying it at my therapy house. So, instead of seeing behaviours as problems, you help us understand them as signs of the brain at work, which I love, and show that the real challenge is often the gap between what a child is being asked to do and the skills or abilities they actually have, which I love. Your Mind the Gaps model gives families, carers and educators and therapists a way to bridge those gaps, not by expecting children to try harder or be something different, but by providing the right supports, adjusting the environment and teaching skills in a way that truly fit that particular child's brain. And that's what I took, you know, from your presentation, which I loved.
Speaker 2:What a great summary. I'm going to steal that summary.
Speaker 1:I'll send it to you, okay. And what I really admire is how you combine your expertise as a psychologist with your lived experience as a foster carer. Is that right, vanessa? Yeah?
Speaker 2:absolutely. It's definitely the intersection between being a mum, being a carer and now, to you know, a young adult. So you know, I guess we're still parents and carers even though our kids grow into adulthood and the intersection with my world as a psychologist and the work that I do there in terms of understanding people's brains.
Speaker 1:So it was kind of a perfect intersection really, oh, I love that because that's where your heart comes in right, the heart and soul. It's not just cognitive but it's like a visceral and a lived experience. So through the fetal alcohol spectrum disorder training Australia and Jumpstart Psychology, you've made the complexities of neurodivergence accessible, hopeful and deeply human, and that's what I love. And just before we got on the podcast today, you were saying you were in a meeting and you were so happy because the young person that you were supporting is actually liked in her environment. And I absolutely love that and you know we resonate with that, because liking the young person that you're working with and just really appreciating their you know, talents and their character is 90% of the job done as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2:Absolutely a liking and I think the liking comes out of understanding the young person. And you know, even in this, even in this meeting that I was in, you know, one of the things I loved about and and you know, even in this, even in this meeting that I was in, you know, one of the things I loved about it was, you know, we were talking about a particular behavioral symptom, so a challenge that this young person had had recently, and as we were dissecting what was going on and again, we were looking at, you know, this young person's brain-based strengths and weaknesses, and we were talking about, oh, you know, when we realized what was going on, when we looked at what was underlying this particular behavioral symptom, which was, you know, something to do with personal hygiene, we all were able to go. I can't believe we missed that. I can't believe, actually, the reason this thing was happening that was leading to, you know, personal hygiene issues and physical health issues, was actually because this thing that we understood and we already knew about this young person's brain and the fact that they were really concrete and really literal and we had assumed that their understanding of you know what it means to to do this particular hygiene thing was a bit personal so I won't go into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they were just being really concrete and literal and we'd missed it and this thing had turned into, you know, quite a big issue for it, and then we were just kind of like, man, how do we miss that? We know this about their brain. So we actually have to take it out of being this nuanced thing that this person has to use their own interceptive skills to understand and we just have to turn it into a habit and a routine, um, because they're excellent routine, you know, they're so good at that, and that was as simple as the issue was, um, but it was really about us going. How do we forget this about this person's brain? We, you know, we know. Yeah, isn't it fascinating?
Speaker 1:because sometimes these little things that probably right in front of us, we don't see because we're trying to complicate something. You know, and, and it is so true, when we really look through the lens of compassion and kindness, and that this person is a person and where they're at developmentally, what can we do to help them, you know, overcome some of the challenges that I'm sure if they knew that they were doing it, they wouldn't want to do it. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:They were just doing what their brain always does with a whole range of other things, and they just happened to be doing it with this on this occasion and we were just slow to pick it up.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I love the way your brain thinks, Vanessa. I love it. So let's dive in. And this season, we are talking about neurodiversity. And when you think about neurodiversity in your life and in your work, what does it mean to you personally?
Speaker 2:So to me, neurodiversity is pretty simple, really. It's not overly complicated, it's really. I'm referring to, and I'm thinking about, just simple brain-based differences, the fact that everyone has a brain, everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and it's about recognizing those. It's about helping people know and understand their brains, and so for me, that's the most important thing we can do is to know and understand our brain and to help know and understand somebody else's brain. And once we can do that, I think it enables us to create and co-create a life that fits the brain that we have.
Speaker 2:And I guess some of us do that really intuitively, like I mean, I didn't set out to create, I didn't go, oh gosh, this is the kind of brain I have, these are my strengths and weaknesses. I think I'll go and create a life that fits that. I kind of did it really intuitively and that's because I have a very neurocommon brain, I think. But for other people that isn't how their brains work and for some people they need some assistance in understanding the brain that they've got, and they need some assistance in helping other people understand the brain that they've got. But we can still create a life that fits them in their brain. To me, neurodiversity is really about understanding those brain-based both strengths and weaknesses. I don't see weaknesses as a problem, so I know some people don't like the term weaknesses, but I have no problem with weaknesses, I think, mainly because I know I have lots of them and there's lots of things I'm working on. So I think that's the human condition.
Speaker 1:That's not a judgment and they're almost like, not so much weaknesses but things in my life that I just don't, I don't follow up on because I choose not to. They're not my interest area. Basically, let's go there. I've got interest areas and non-interest areas. I'm just really interested because I worked with a little guy in the last couple of days and you know he was. He's almost 10 years old and he's not even going to school because school thinks that he is too hard.
Speaker 1:And I just kept thinking about your model when I'm looking at this boy now that I've heard about your model, and just thinking about what the gaps are for him and that he doesn't have the skills. So he basically he's diagnosed with various diagnoses and one of them is that he does not have impulse control right. So that means he just goes and does it and needs it and soon as he sees it because his visual system is so strong and it's almost like whew, I'm going there and now I'm going and now I'm taking it and now I'm throwing it right, and he hasn't been able to think through that. And what's really interesting is that people are working with him, trying to work with him in a very structured way, you know, sitting down with timers and cutting and pasting and and everything else. And I can see this little guy and he's looking at the timer and he's cutting. And if anyone saw me now, like I'm actually looking at it another way and my hand is here next to my right ear and he's actually doing that because he knows it's a routine.
Speaker 1:But there's no joy in it, there's no meaning in it, there's no purpose in it, Like how can we help kids that are? I guess they're complex, but they're really like running around and you know really just anything they see they'll grab or they'll get up and they'll do something they have. You know, some parents find that really hard to go down the medication route this child has. They have just gone down the medication route. That's helped him a lot. I always say it just frees up the space in the brain, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:create some wiggle room for some kids and they just need that wiggle room to be able to develop some skills or to slow their thinking down and to help them problem solve better. It's a wiggle room creator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I love that and, like the thing is, I always keep thinking about well, what is neuroaffirming practice? You know, is neuroaffirming practice that we superimpose our ideas of what the eight or nine-year-old should be doing, or do we support him around his interests, like, you know, bubble play and things like that, even if developmentally he's at the, you know, like a one-year-old child that likes to explore? So what are your thoughts around that? You know, when we're looking at school and things like that, because I see some schools are not as neuroaffirming as they could be yet and I say yet because we are going down that way, 100% yeah.
Speaker 2:Look, it's really challenging and I get it. I have an enormous amount of empathy for schools. You know, I thought I wanted to be a teacher very early in my career and you know I did a year of teaching at uni and went oh my gosh, do I really want 30 kids in my classroom? And I was like, no, I'd rather be in a room with just one person. I think I can be more effective with just one person. And you know, when you look at a classroom, your average classroom has got, you know it's probably got I don't know 15 neuro common brains that are wired in a particular way, and then it's got you know another five brains that are you particular way, and then it's got you know another five brains that are, you know, more neurodiverse, that are wired in this way, and another three that might be wired in a slightly different way. You know it's a, you know it's a juggling act, but everyone has a right to an education with the brain that they've got, and so we do need to find some ways of solving that, but you know so. But I think we have to find a way through that, and a part of that is by understanding each of the brains that we have in our space and when it comes to things like executive functioning. So when you describe that little person there, I think of two brain domains. So executive functioning, so that mental flexibility, your ability to manage your impulses, the ability to link cause and effect, you know, in terms of brain domains it's just a domain that gets kids in so much trouble in environments that have an expectation that they have. Good, that's one of the key expectations of being in a classroom is that you're actually going to have average executive functioning for your age. That's a problem if you don't have that common, you know, executive functioning for your age, because the whole room isn't set up for you, the playground isn't set up for you, and so you can't meet the demands of that environment. And when you can't meet the demands of that environment, then you're going to respond with the things that you do have.
Speaker 2:And quite often that's when we, these kids, kick into fight or flight and they become flighters or fighters, or they become some combination of the two fight or flight and they become flighters or fighters, or they become some combination of the two, and so you can try to superimpose that on a young person, but they don't grow executive functioning skills overnight. You know this takes decades to develop, even in your common people. So, like you know, it just doesn't work at the end of the day. If it's super imposing it was going to work, it would have worked a long time ago and we actually wouldn't have any of these kids that have behavioral symptoms in the classroom. So I think we have no choice but to adapt to their brain and go okay, this young person doesn't have great executive functioning skills just yet. So what's our window into this? And typically our window into it is the things that are there, areas of hyperfocus, for example. There are areas of special interest, and so, again, we're probably going to have to start with those so that we can get some opportunistic learning and find and use them as a way of starting to open up executive functioning, helping to link cause and effect.
Speaker 2:I was talking about this only this morning. If you've got someone who is super fascinated with trains and they're really cognitively rigid and they're really inflexible with the things they want to talk about and they're having lots of trouble with their executive functioning, we can't sit them down and start talking to them about cause and effect and using some example that's really random that won't light up their brain pathways. You know we're going to have to go. Okay, you know how do we start to open up cognitive flexibility by using a Thomas the Tank Engine scenario. You know how do we go.
Speaker 2:You know, thomas, you know really wanted to go to this station, but the station master was saying actually, thomas, you need to go and do these two other jobs before you come back to this station. Um, so again, you know you can. You can try to impose that model of no, we're going to sit down and talk about cause and effect, and we're going to talk about it in regards to I don't know cats. We're going to talk about it in regards to I don't know cats. We're going to talk about it in regards to your behaviour in the classroom and the zones of or in the playground, or what you did to Johnny in the playground.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or which, of course, just goes straight over their heads. There's no engagement. They might nod and they might, at their very best, kind of go oh, yeah, yeah. At their worst they just ignore you and their executive functioning comes out right there and then in front of you, or we pivot and we go okay, we can have a window into executive functioning using this area that lights up their brain pathways, and that's our first place. And over time, if they develop some of those skills, then we can expand it to these more boring areas that don't light up their brain pathways. But we've got to go through the areas that work first.
Speaker 1:Sorry, vanessa, and often I find that it's through relationship that we can expand. So when they trust us and when we are in their world, then they go okay, you're okay because you're talking my language.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you understand me, you like me, you seem to get me, or at least you're trying to get me, and kids are pretty good at working that out.
Speaker 1:So I want to talk about the important role that you've played in this space of advocating for kids, and you know the books that you've written and all the work that you do with the complex children you work with today. So could you tell us a little bit about what you do now and what is it that fuels your passion for creating belonging and connection? This could take our full 45 minutes. Well, I just love listening to you, vanessa, and I'm sure the listeners do too. You're just compelling to listen to.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, that's very generous. You know, I think the thing, the first thing, that the first role that I played was really that role as a mum. And you know it was a role and my passion came out of absolute, sheer desperation. You know being plunged in the world of parenthood and wanting to do a good job and having this really complex. You know, really neurodiverse young person and me just trying desperately to work him out and working, you know, desperately trying to understand him and and some of it probably was also based on fear, because I could see the trajectory, I could see where things were heading if we, if I, didn't manage to understand him and if I didn't manage to help him and me create a world that gave him the, you know, the best possible life that he could have. So I guess you know that that passion just comes out of, you know, love we all fall in love with our kids and you know wanting the best for them. But yeah, and some of it did come with. You know, at that sense of fear, what happens if we don't? What happens if we don't? What happens if I don't understand him? What happens if other people don't understand him in this world? And you know I work in the area of FASD, so I know what those outcomes are and the outcomes are really dire and really depressing. So for me I just wasn't happy with that as an outcome for him and, as like most parents, that was just like no, that's, that's not where we're going.
Speaker 2:And that did intersect, I guess, with the other roles that I play, which would be, you know, the professional roles that I have, so working as a clinical psychologist, and I worked in child protection and family counselling. So, you know, trying to support families, you know, in really complex circumstances. And then, you know, trying to support families, you know, in really complex circumstances. And then, you know, trying to support adults. And I just became really interested in brains and the role that the brain that we have plays, I guess, on our life and how our life plays out.
Speaker 2:And then you know, again, out of necessity, you know I wanted to be able to communicate that to other people because, again, neurodiversity, neurocomplexity, these multi-layered things, you know they're incredibly complicated and as professionals we kind of love the language and we love the jargon, but I really quickly worked out that didn't help anybody else, so I had to have a language for communicating this with his teachers. I had to have a language for communicating this with his teachers. I had to have a language for communicating it with schools and principals and speech therapists and OTs and pediatricians and the soccer coach and you know every single person in the lives of these kids. So that drove me, I guess, to be an educator.
Speaker 2:It drove me to write books and develop resources that try to make these really, really complex things as simple as they can be and to make them really clear and succinct so that people don't need to get a PhD to work out what do I do, how do I best support this young person. But we sort of all got driven again by necessity and by trying to make other people's lives simpler as well, because I think people want to do the best that they can to support these kids, but they have no idea how. They don't know what that looks like on a day-to-day basis and in everyday life. And I love practicality and I like simplicity. So I guess I've tried to create a whole system that people can apply and so they can learn these skills themselves.
Speaker 1:And that's your.
Speaker 2:Mind the Gaps system. Yeah, mind the Gaps. The first one was actually, I call it explain by brain. So explain by brain is the broader framework and that is. You know, I didn't invent all the different components of it. I pinched from really knowledgeable people like Diane Melbourne, who has the neurobehavioral approach for FASD, from people like Ross Green, who has the collaborative and proactive solutions, and people like Bruce Perry, who have this phenomenal bodily of research around trauma.
Speaker 2:What I found is there was just shortcomings in all of those frameworks and models.
Speaker 2:They weren't quite right for everyone with FASD, and so I've basically tweakedaked those. I've taken the best out of those frameworks and the best out of that research and the best out of that evidence base, and then I've gone okay, this is what I know about how alcohol in particular impacts on brains, but I also know how, I guess, just brains work. So how, how do I tweak this to to fit all of these really diverse brains that I'm supporting? And so that's my overall Explained by Brain framework, and then the Mind the Gap stuff falls into what we call ability mapping. That's again, this is one of the practical tools that I use to understand brains, explain brains, describe behavioral symptoms, so that people can understand why people do the things that they do, even when we have no idea what might be driving that or we think it's driven by something else, and to design those supports and accommodations and to work out how we teach missing skills. So it's sort of that. Yeah, it's a component of that broader Explained by Bain framework.
Speaker 1:And I love when you presented it was very visual because you presented it as a wheel and then when you mapped where kids were on that wheel, the wheel wasn't round, the wheel was jaggedy like the Flintstones. Yes, and if the child's got a Flintstone wheel that they're going on, I mean life is going to be really rough and sometimes the child's got a Flintstone wheel that they're going on. I mean life is going to be really rough and sometimes the car's not even going to go forward. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So I love that. It's not going straight, it's not going fast, it's a bumpy, hard, really effortful wheel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, just like in the Stone Ages. Effortful wheel. Yeah, yeah, just like in the stone ages. So what with that? When we talk about, you know, supporting kids with their skill development, where there is that gap, does that mean that, is it like only psychologists that can do it, or is it a whole team approach?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's absolutely a whole team approach. Everyone has to be involved in filling in that gap because we live in. That gap is the world. So it's everything that happens in the world. That's the school, that's when we go to the cinema, it's when we go to the shops, it's when we go to have a doctor's appointment. The world lives in that gap.
Speaker 2:So we take our brain into every single environment that we go into. So we need supports and accommodations. Wherever our brain goes, we need supports and accommodations, and so it has to be something that is, yeah, that is contributed to by absolutely everybody in the world and obviously health professionals. We have a very particular role in that in terms of invite, in identifying where the gaps. You know where supports and accommodations needed, what some of those might look like helping other people, problem solve, what, what they helping people. You know I often call myself a translator, so you know I try to translate this young person's brain into the environment that they're in and you know what do we need so that you can understand them and they can understand you.
Speaker 1:So is the translator usually a psychologist, or it can be any professional.
Speaker 2:Look, it can be anyone who understands brains. So, yeah, I mean, often it is a psychologist. Because we love brains, we're always talking about brains. Oh, yes, definitely. Yes, it's a kind of our bread and butter. I think it's very natural for us to go there. But, yeah, it can be a speech therapist, an OT. It can be some really well-educated parents and carers, Like some of the parents and carers I support. You know they have some of them should have a master's degree in brains because they've really done the research and looked into it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, often it is people like psychologists, just because we love brains and this framework you wrote it around FASD is is it can be applied to any child. Right, that's got complex. Yeah, because that's what I found when I was listening to your session. I thought, oh, this can apply to so many children. You don't only have to have fetal alcohol syndrome disorder.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent because everyone's got the same brain domains. I can ability map myself, I can ability map my mum, I can ability map my son, I can ability map every client who comes and sits in front of me. Now I don't need to and I don't ability map everybody, although probably subconsciously, I've started to do that. But you know, the vast majority of people who come and see me in my office, they don't come in with FASD, they come in with a whole variety of things. And you know, as our conversation unfolds and as I get to know them in their life, I'm also getting to know them in their brain. And if it's appropriate, I do ability mapping. You know, people love again and many will have.
Speaker 2:They will have some kind of diagnosis or they suspect they have a diagnosis, particularly of things like autism and ADHD. But also you know some of my adults who've been told that they have borderline personality disorder, which, again, it's just, it's not a very helpful diagnosis and it doesn't explain much. So but if we ability map their brains and go, you know what is it that you struggle with? Well, it's emotional regulation. It's that. You know, my stress system gets kicked into fight or flight.
Speaker 2:There's certainly some executive functioning difficulties, lots of problems with impulsiveness, not really understanding the consequences of my actions or being able to predict them well. Sometimes I get really overwhelmed. So you know, that's a processing speed. You know, sometimes I'm not reading the room well, so that might be adaptive functioning and social skills. Again, that's far more. I think that's much more useful for them to understand. Oh, these are just some of the weaknesses that I have, but I also have strengths in this and I can build some skills in this and my psychologist can help me with understanding that. They can help me to to work out what kind of environments I'm going to be best suited to. And it's, it's without judgment, it's just a description, there's nothing functional and it's more.
Speaker 1:Look it, it's not strengths-based, but it is strengths-based, if you know what I mean. Yeah, so you know. If you get a diagnosis, it's really like you've got a label on your forehead and you're thinking, oh my gosh, I've got bipolar, I've got ADHD, I've got ASD, I've got this, I've got that and all of that subjectivity you walk around with that, you know, in the back of your mind. So I love that, because it's very individualized, isn't it?
Speaker 2:exactly, and it's like well, how do I best live my life? Knowing my strengths and my weaknesses, what, no matter what everyone else calls them, if someone gives them a diagnosis, fine, but how do I live my life with these, these brain-based strengths and weaknesses that I have?
Speaker 1:I love it. I think I'm gonna map myself when I get your book. I'm gonna start with myself. I'll start with myself. So, vanessa, many of the people listening are parents today. If you could share just one message with them, what would you really want them to take away?
Speaker 2:Oh, just one message I guess it's a message that I tell lots of parents and that is that you are the greatest resource your child has. There is no, you know. The speech therapist isn't the greatest resource they have, or their psychologist, their you know behavior support practitioner. You, you, you are their greatest resource. Educate yourself, educate everybody that you know so that they also understand your child. Care for yourself, because, as the greatest resource you know, you're here for a long time, not a good time.
Speaker 2:We want longevity, and that means you looking after yourself and making sure that you meet your needs, but don't be afraid to create and co-create a meaningful and purposeful life for your child. You can do that together, and I think that's our job as parents is to imagine a future for our children and work with them to work out what it is that they want for their life. Yeah, and our job is to work out well, how do we get them there. So, you know, I think there's nobody who's a more important resource to that than you. So you've got to look after yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I love that I was actually working with a mum today and we do a little baseline assessment. So I do a six-week program with the parents and we score. She scored herself at the beginning and today was the fifth week and she scored herself full marks about feeling confident in herself. Oh isn't that great. And I was like this is what the work is about, because she's also supporting a young child that you know has got some challenges, but she could see the future and that she was the resource right, that she, that she was the child strength. I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that. And you don't have to know everything to have that confidence. You do have to go. I can problem solve and I can problem solve with them and you don't have to. You won't know all the answers. I have the skills to work it out and to work with them.
Speaker 1:And also, we talked a lot about problem solving and that problem solving isn't about coming up with a solution first pop. Like I know, for me as a problem solver it could take many different solutions until I come up with oh, there it is, you know. So having confidence that the solution will come, whether it's going to be from yourself, confidence that the solution will come, whether it's going to be from yourself, from someone else, something just drops into your lap from somewhere, or you have an aha moment while you're brushing your teeth. You know that's the way the brain works, right? It's not like. And the more you actually focus on the problem, the harder it is to solve often, I find and look, good scientists right.
Speaker 2:Good scientists, they love the experiment. You know that's what we do and we're experimenting with a theory that I think this is something that will make a difference for my young person. And you go out and you conduct the experiment and a good scientist isn't looking for a particular outcome. I mean we're kind of well't looking for a particular outcome. I mean we kind of were obviously hoping for a particular kind of outcome when we were doing experiments with our kids. A really good scientist is interested in the process and says, okay, well, now I can rule this one out, now I can rule this one out, and now I can tweak this one, and I think we got closer with this. And so actually I think we need to do a little bit more of this and I think that is a much. That's a much healthier way to view the world in general and we're not a failure. We can't fail if we just continue to conduct these experiments.
Speaker 1:That's right, and I think, when you were saying that you are the greatest resource for your child, we also want parents not to go gasp. It's like you are perfect the way you are for your child and, whatever happens, you will continue to grow. Even if you think you're not continuing to grow, you are. Just by one little interaction, just by seeing something, hearing something, and the right things will come to you at the right time. That is what I believe and I think the parents that can navigate their world like that without fretting about oh, I'm not good enough, I can't do that.
Speaker 1:You know all these limiting beliefs and decisions and I always say to parents if you have those, go and see a professional, go and see a psychologist, because sometimes, you know, our filters get in the way of being the best we can be in the moment with what we've got, and I guess that's why you're there, vanessa, but you know you are in Brisbane, you're not here in Adelaide. So so I think you know, but we need to be, you know, reaching out to professional help, because I do know a lot of parents put themselves last and they will get all the help they can for their child but for their own mental, spiritual, physical, emotional health. They'll put that on the back burner and that's the, that's the, the part that needs to be nourished right.
Speaker 2:Well, you've got to look after the resource, like the resources, we've got to nurture it and support it and we've got to let it rest when it needs to rest and we've got to grow it when it needs to grow. Yeah, not the outcome. No, we're not the solution, we're the resource. So we have to. We don't want to burn up all of the resource again. We're here, we want to keep nourishing it. We want to keep growing the resource and I think people mistake being a resource with being the solution. Oh, yes, we're, we're a resource.
Speaker 2:Yes, a really important one. We're not the only one, but we are not the solution.
Speaker 2:No, and I love that we are not the answer and we're never going to find a answer Again. I think so many parents I mean, and I know I wanted an answer, goodness knows, I would have loved an answer and it really sucks that there's not an answer. But the answer was I am the resource and I'm gonna have to keep conducting experiments, you know, potentially for the rest of my life, and that's actually okay and and also when you're conducting those experiments, you're growing yourself as a human being.
Speaker 1:You know so that your child is your best growth. You, you know in personal development. For you it was also professional development, but they are the key to your personal development, you know, as a human being, which I think is great, exactly.
Speaker 2:And we're modelling. We're modelling exactly what it is we want them to learn. You know, I want my son to learn. You're going to make mistakes. You're not going to get it right every time. I want him to learn. Life can be frustrating, but we can cope and we can learn and we can change and we can learn to be more flexible, Even when that doesn't come naturally to us. We can learn to be better at it. So we actually role model the things that we want them to do as well.
Speaker 1:So I think that's lovely, that's huge, and I think that openness isn't it, that openness to question yourself. I know that there've been parents that I've worked with and it's always that, oh, my child's got the problem and my child's got this diagnosis and this and this, but they're not really looking at their own profile. It's really important that we're open and we're looking at our own profile. It's really important that we're open and, as we're looking at our own profile, it's okay. It's not a judgment. And I guess people that have still got that fear, that shame, that guilt, sadness, you know carrying that. That's again where I believe that the psychologist is very helpful for working with those and just normalising because it's normal. You know, everybody's got that in different ways, yeah, but it can be very personal for some. Oh my gosh, okay, look how much I can talk to you, okay. So I like to ask all my guests this question what do you see as your own neurodiverse strength or difference that makes you uniquely, you?
Speaker 2:Actually, I love that question when I because you sent me the questions beforehand, or some of the questions beforehand, and this one I actually because I don't think anyone's ever asked me this and I love it as a question and my answer I think the people around me would agree. I think a certain degree of hyperfocus, you know obviously talking about, there are certain topics that light up my brain pathways FASD, complex neurodiversity, pickleball. There's a couple of areas that, for whatever reason, they light up my brain pathways and I can just dive into them and I have, in terms of those particular topics, I have incredible attention to detail. It's kind of a bit like rocket fuel. I feel really passionate about it. It enables me to be creative, and so I guess I think I'm just really lucky that I've found these areas. And again, that just happens to be the way my brain is wired. So when I find something that lights up my brain pathways, I can just delve right into it at a level of detail that most people would just find tedious, and I can go yeah, but what does that look like here? Yeah, but what does that look like there? So how would we support that in this environment?
Speaker 2:Um, so my brain. It loves to solve puzzles, it loves to find uh, I don't know that. It loves to solve puzzles, it loves to contemplate puzzles. It's always looking to create a framework that that helps me to understand stuff. And then then I want to, then I I get really passionate and I want to explain it to someone else, because I get really excited and I go let me tell you about my framework. What do you think about this framework? And then they go oh, yeah, no, it's a really good one. Oh, except this. And then I'm like oh right, yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Let me go, and let me go and think about that some more and I'll tweak my framework.
Speaker 1:I love that so much. Oh, my goodness, when you talk like that, I can just hear myself and I know my husband probably will be listening to this and going. She's like you, she's exactly like you, because. I do think that as well. You know, and it's really important to find and own what you're good at and what your strength is and what makes you uniquely you and you know the other stuff they're not. Like I say, it's not your weakness, it's just that it's not your focus area for this lifetime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know we get the choice about that. You know, certainly, as I get older, I'm saying that you know what? I don't have to structure my career in a way that sits me in one particular job and I do that job, and I do that five days a week, and you know it's in one particular setting. I can actually go. Oh, hang on, my brain actually likes variety. My brain likes, you know, doing some creative sort of writing or you know, trying to, you know, design some kind of system. It likes to do some education. It likes sitting in front of people, and as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh, actually I get a say in this. I can actually do that. I can structure my work life to fit this brain that I have and some of these things that I do care about and that I'm really passionate about, and I'm really grateful for that. That's an amazing thing to have.
Speaker 1:And so are we. We're really, really grateful, because then we get the benefits. And to finish, what gives you hope when you think about the future, a future where neurodiversity is truly celebrated and belonging is possible for everyone.
Speaker 2:What gives me hope is, I think, my son. You know, and and even I think, before we got started I was talking about this particular client that I'd just been in a, you know, in a, you know, a conference call about. What I love is that, again, they, they both came with this incredible complexity and you know lots of adversity, without any doubt, but it gives me hope because, you know, for my son, I see that he is created and is creating this life that has purpose and meaning for him, um, and you know it has all the things that are important to him around work, and work looks and is structured differently perhaps to how it might be for other people. He's got relationships, he's got family, he has his special interests, he's got some things that light up his brain pathways, he likes to travel and he contributes to the community, like for me that's so important that you know he's not just a part of the community but he has a role and he has responsibilities in the community and he's aware of those and they're not a burden, they're actually, you know, something that is, I think, really important to him and I think that gives me hope and I've seen this in, I guess, this other.
Speaker 2:You know, in multiple of the young people I support, where we start to see things sort of turning and we start to see them actually I don't know finding a way of living that actually works for them, a form of schooling that works for them. They have some dreams around you know what kind of work they want to do in the future and how they want to contribute to society and and to other people's lives. And for me, you know that's again that's what everyone wants for their life. So when I see young people with really complex neurodiversity striving for that and achieving that that's I don't know that, just you know it fills my heart.
Speaker 1:It's lovely, it does, and it makes the world better right, because it's tapestry. We're all a beautiful tapestry and we all need all the different colours in that tapestry, exactly. Wow, this really, this really made me feel up and this really drove my brain and I'm just like I was a bit tired before we got on and now I'm just like whoa, I'm wired, I'm off to conquer the world. Vanessa, see you later. I'm just a psychologist, I'm fine. So thank you so much for being part of the Empowered Parent Podcast, vanessa. It was just-. Thank you for inviting me. You were so inspiring and if this conversation has inspired the listener, you, I'd love for you to share the episode with a friend, leave a review or follow along so you don't miss any episodes of our Neurodiversity series in the future. And together we can build a world where every child, every parent and every individual feels they truly belong. So thank you again, vanessa, for being part of the podcast series. Thank you so much.
