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The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Welcome to The Empowered Parent Podcast.
This podcast is a space for parents to learn, reflect, and grow.
Each week, we explore topics that help parents understand themselves and their children more deeply - from communication and connection, to supporting neurodivergent development at home and in the community.
We’ve had wonderful conversations with experts, parents, and professionals - including speakers from the Neurodivergence Wellbeing Conference, and a special series following one mum’s journey in unschooling her child.
Every episode is here to inspire curiosity, compassion, and confidence in your parenting journey.
Don’t forget to follow along, share your reflections, and join the conversation.
You can connect with me at danabaltutis.com or mytherapyhouse.com.au.
Let’s celebrate neurodivergence.
Let’s celebrate belonging.
The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis
Season 2 NEURODIVERSITY - Episode 6: Hope in Therapy: Cultural Sensitivity Meets Neurodiversity (Anushka Phal , Educational and Developmental Psychologist, Business Owner, and Community Advocate)
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What happens when cultural identity meets neurodiversity? Psychologist Anushka Phal knows this intersection intimately as a Fijian Indian, born in New Zealand and raised in Australia, who received her own ADHD diagnosis as an adult. This revelation sparked both personal healing and a passionate mission to create mental health spaces where multicultural, neurodivergent individuals truly belong.
"When I got diagnosed, I looked back at life and realized there was an explanation for all the things impacting my self-worth," Anushka shares. "It's like watching a thriller movie for the second time – suddenly all the clues make sense." This newfound self-compassion transformed not just her life but her approach to therapy at Unmeed Psychology, the culturally responsive practice she founded in Melbourne.
The conversation explores fascinating questions many clients bring to therapy: "How much of this is my ADHD and how much is just being Asian?" Anushka unpacks how certain traits might be celebrated in some cultures while pathologized in others. Cultural context profoundly impacts how neurodivergence presents – she notes that in Fiji, her ADHD symptoms feel less problematic than in Melbourne's fast-paced environment.
Beyond clinical work, Anushka has created vibrant community spaces where people with intersectional identities can connect authentically. From South Asian queer gatherings to women's circles, these "third spaces" address the disappearance of natural community connections. "When you come from a collectivistic background, having your community makes such a difference to mental health," she explains.
For parents, therapists, and neurodivergent individuals, Anushka offers practical wisdom: strategic whiteboards for capturing thoughts, collection baskets throughout the house, and a profound mindset shift for preventing burnout – "Every time I say yes to something, I'm saying no to something else." Her "spider web thinking" demonstrates how neurodivergent traits can become superpowers when embraced with compassion and understanding.
Listen in for a conversation that might forever change how you view the beautiful intersection of culture, neurodiversity, and the healing power of belonging. Has your experience with therapy acknowledged all aspects of who you are?
https://www.umeedpsychology.com.au/anushkaphal
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
Today I'm very delighted to welcome Anoushka Phal, a psychologist whose heart and work are woven with hope and understanding. Anoushka is the founder of Unmead Psychology, a place where therapy is caring, cultural and empowering. Her organisation is in Melbourne, victoria. She specialises in supporting children, teens and families from many different cultures, all with kindness, deep respect and lots of hope. So welcome Anushka.
Speaker 2Hey Donna, thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited about this.
Speaker 1Yeah, so am I, anushka. You are bicultural yourself. You're a Fijian Indian, born in New Zealand and raised in Australia, and your own story helped you see how hard it can be when no one quite understands you. That feeling sparked a gentle but powerful journey to make mental health care better for multicultural communities like yours and mine and ours, because we are all I know. I'm from a multicultural community, so and I loved your talk at the Neurodivergent and Wellbeing Conference at the Gold Coast where I saw you. So, yeah, I loved it. So unmeet psychology means hope. Unmeet means hope. This was born from your belief that everyone deserves to feel seen, heard and safe in therapy.
Speaker 1You are dedicated to helping people navigate ADHD, autism, anxiety, intergenerational trauma, identity and more, always through a lens of culture, nuance and warmth. You don't offer just one-on-one support. You lead many, many different programs and community initiatives, like the six-week Harnessing, your Interest-Based Brain program to help adults with ADHD build tools that work with their brains, not against them. I love that. You also care deeply about lowering barriers. Through Unmead, you have reached thousands by offering free mental health workshops, community events and safe spaces for youth, students and LGBTQIA plus folks. I love that, anushka, you do so much for the community.
Speaker 1I don't know how you have time to breathe the Longwell Clinic, though, anushka. You are a mental health ambassador, you co-host for Girls at ADHD podcast and you and your contributor to community initiatives supporting migrants, women and multicultural youth. Your dedication has been recognised widely, with awards and honours that highlight your role as a passionate advocate for mental health and cultural inclusion. Your approach is simple, real and brave not about fixing what's wrong, but about understanding who you truly are and giving you space to share your story and be seen, or giving people space to share their story and be seen. So today, please join me in welcoming Anushka, whose gentle clarity and passionate advocacy remind us all that healing is for every heart and that a little hope can go a very, very long way. Wow, I love it. I can't wait to get into this chat with you, anushka.
Speaker 2I'm so excited to have a talk and just explore everything with you to have a talk and, like, just explore everything with you.
Speaker 1I agree, and I love your website as well. So, for anyone who hasn't been on there, I've been on there Unmeet Psychology. So let's start by asking the question when you think about neurodiversity, anushka, in your life and in your work, what does it mean to you personally?
Speaker 2Oh, big question. So I am a late diagnosed ADHDer and I think I think a lot of the like. Look, I started out studying at Endeavor Psych, so there was a huge emphasis on neurodiversity and doing the work in that space already when I was studying, when I finished up uni and I started working about a year and I got diagnosed myself. So I think like the interest and the passion for it was already there. But I think my lived experience has really catalyzed the work that I do in this space, in this area, purely because like it's like incidental, you know, know, you start learning about yourself and then you start wanting to be like oh my god, do other people know this? And then realizing that there's not a lot of information out there. So, on a personal level, I think it's been quite the journey because on the one hand, I'm so proud and so like I don't know yeah, proud's Proud's the right word I'm so proud of my brain, like it is chaotic and it's messy. And I remember somebody once said to me like one of my clients actually she was like Anushka, when you look at all of the things that are me this doing, like your business itself it was. If it was a person, it would have ADHD and I was like a hundred percent. I'm like we run everything so chaotically, it works out. It works out that it is chaos, but it's beautiful chaos and I think it's been learning how to live with that and being okay with it.
Speaker 2But I think, yeah, being diagnosed as an adult. One of the things that I've learned and realized is that there was a lot of grief when I first got diagnosed, not because I was like, oh no, there's a label. Now, it was more that, because I had a label or because I hadn't had gone through and gotten assessed and diagnosed, I looked back at life and was like, oh, it's like here's where things, all of the things that I that were impacting my self-worth and like who I am as a person, actually there's an explanation, not an excuse. But there's an explanation for a lot of things and that led to a lot of self-compassion. I like to describe it to people. I'm like it's like watching a thriller movie for the second time and the second time you can be like, oh, look at all of the like all the choice points you know that's where, that's where that, and then you're like oh, it's not.
Speaker 2Like, it's not that you're not surprised at the ending anymore. So it's been. I think it's been a journey and I think it's really fueled a passion in terms of wanting to learn more about this space, not just for myself, but to be able to support clients and people around me as well. Yeah, yeah, and I was like it's. Every day is like a learning day.
Speaker 2And also, just when you like realize that you're neurodivergent and you surround yourself by other neurodivergent people, I think the most wholesome thing that has happened in the last three to four years is that I've really found my own people.
Speaker 2Not because, like, I've been intentional about it, you start realising how many of your friends actually are neuro spicy, but like I think it's also just like you find community and you find family and you can be yourself and like because you allow yourself to be yourself and you surround family and you can be yourself and like because you allow yourself to be yourself and you surround yourself by people who allow that as well, you're just. You come out so much better for it and it's it's just really nice. It was like one of the things that I really loved about the neurodiversity conference in Gold Coast was that so many people were neurodivergent themselves and so, like I just haven't been in a space where you can unmask like that, even in a professional context, like I can with my team. My entire team is neurodivergent. So like it's yeah, it's interesting to be in these spaces and like I don't know, just to find your people. That was a really long winner dance, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1Oh no, I love it. I love it and you know, I also think, because I was diagnosed as well later and you know, as you say, I was always interested in the community and I was interested probably because I fit into the community. Yeah, you're like something's drawing me here. I don't know what. I'm just over and over and over, but I just found like I felt like a compassion for the little child you know, that was always trying to fit in and was always thinking it was my fault that I wasn't doing enough being enough, whatever.
Speaker 2Yeah, not being enough right.
Speaker 1Yeah, never being enough, right. And then you think, oh, it's neurology, it's actually the way I'm made up and if only I would have known I would have been out there going hey, hang on a minute, you minute, it's the way I am. So it gave me more compassion, because I have a lot of compassion for my clients. So I was putting myself in that position and it gave me a lot of more compassion for myself. Did you feel that?
Speaker 2Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2And the compassion is, I think, been the most pivotal part of it, because and I hadn't realized this either but like, when you become self-compassionate you do regress a little bit because you kind of drop the ball on certain things, but you drop the ball in the best way, because then you build yourself back up again and I think the self-compassion really has really helped with self-confidence.
Culture and Neurodivergence Intersections
Speaker 2It's also helped with the imposter syndrome, because I think I mean there's multi-layers to this, because I have so many intersections but not enoughness has been like a really cool thing, at least for myself throughout my life. And then, like the with my, the demographic that I work with with primarily, you know people from multicultural backgrounds, and then, like I see a lot of women, and then neurodivergent women at that, like there is a big sense of not enoughness and not belonging in spaces. So I think, having one thing that you could look back on and be like, okay, actually, no, it's not, I'm not lazy, it's not that I'm not trying hard enough, it's not all of those other things that you're told I'm not too emotional, I'm not too much, you know, I'm not too sensitive.
Speaker 2I'm not too sensitive, I'm not too much and I'm not too emotional, I'm not too much, you know I'm not too sensitive, I'm not too sensitive, I'm not too much and I'm also not enough. I am just right amount of everything for how my brain works. I think that just does something to rewire the way. And then you just like you live better and I can't say that anything fundamentally has changed in my life, but it's just like your mindset shifts a little bit and you feel happier.
Speaker 1And I feel freer.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I just feel freer and I feel that I've always trusted my gut feeling. But now I'm really trusting my gut feeling and I know that what I'm advocating for is right, because it's what I know, that you know from the research, but also my lived experience, that this is what's the best for my clients at this point, for their situation, you know, and that's what they're trying to advocate for, but they're not being heard in the community that wants them to fit into. You know what is it? Square peg in a round hole. Basically, yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that. So you've played such an important role in this space, in the cultural multicultural space. Could you tell us a little bit about what you do now and what is it that fuels your passion for creating this whole belonging and connection? And could you touch a little bit about how culture and neurodivergent minds come together, because I absolutely loved your talk at the conference and I would love other people to hear just some of your thoughts about that.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay. So the work that I do at the moment kind of fell into it, which I know is like a thing that people say all the time. But no, truly like I was. I used to be a school psychologist. I was working in a high school straight out of uni and I had a strong passion for cultural psychology and like working in multicultural spaces. Know, in my head I was like I'll do this in four or five years time, after I've studied a little bit more, maybe done my PhD, we'll see.
Speaker 2And it was like a very much we'll see situation in saying that I'd put myself up on southasiantherapistorg just in case, like you know, it was just there for like whatever purposes. I it was one of those ADHD things where it was like the middle of the night. I'm like, oh, this is a cool thing to sign up to and I just like left it there. But basically, in March of 2021, I got a phone call from somebody and they were super distraught and they were like I need a South Asian therapist and it's like you know, I'm dealing with these like cultural issues and I was like, okay, cool, uh. And then I tried to see whether if anyone else was available and I was like there wasn't. And at the time at least, yeah, there wasn't, wasn't. And I was like give me a week. And so I went home and I my mum was making dinner I remember it so clearly and I sat down and I was like, oh, I need to register an ABN and then I need a name, but it doesn't really make a difference, because I'm just going to do this after school, like it's not a big deal. And so I registered the ABN and started seeing people like after school every once in a while. And then it just kind of blew up because I started doing talks and stuff and community. Obviously there was a need for it and that was like in 2021.
Speaker 2And now we have reached a point where we have like, we're a group practice, we're a social enterprise as well, so we do all. We do all your basic private practice work, and then we do a lot of community engagement work, and that was also bred from need. So the first sort of community engagement work that we started doing was a South Asian queer space, and that was because I had a client who was like oh, I'm diaspora, I am queer, I'm neurodivergent, I don't know where to find friends and I looked it up and I was like I couldn't find any Facebook groups or anything like that where she could go and connect with people. So I was like, oh okay, like how about we just like host a thing for like a chai night and we'll see how many people come? And we had 30 people rock up and that, yeah, was insane. And then that space has continued to grow and now community has taken over. So, like I started running it when I was like a few years back, and now community has taken over and now they run it. And that's the same with our South Asian women's space, same with, like you know, our men's circles.
Speaker 2We do, we do so many events and experiences and stuff. Like on the weekend we had a movie night and next week we've got an open mic night coming up, and the whole purpose behind that is that I feel like third spaces are disappearing and as, especially when you're going in from like adolescence into adulthood, where do you go and make friends? How do you connect with people? How do you connect with other third culture kids Especially, like you know, because it's very easy, I think, to be able to meet people from your own cultural background if you just sort of migrated because there's a lot of space for, like you know, first-gen migrants. And even saying that our space is for first-gen migrants, it's not that it's not, but it's also that I found that people that are like me, who were born somewhere else and then were raised here and then have parents who are from somewhere else, completely entirely, it's just like you don't have anywhere to fit in and like where do you go?
Speaker 2So we just started creating ways that people could start connecting back into their culture and like where do you go?
Speaker 2So we just started creating ways that people could start connecting back into their culture and like, yeah, having those events. And the main reason behind that is because so there's so much research behind how social support and social connection elevates mental health right and how much it supports your mental health. So it's great that we exist as a cultural responsive practice and people from multicultural backgrounds can come and like be there and be supported by a therapist who gets it like that's the whole point, like we, we understand the nuance of culture and how that impacts everything else, but then also having your community, especially when you come from a collectivistic background, makes such a big difference. And over the years I've watched people make friends and like now, they come to the events together and there's not just like nothing more wholesome than creating that connection with each other. So, from going from all of that to, like you know, being like a team of, I think we're like 10 people now, 10, 11. I'm missing somebody? There's definitely no, there's 12 of us.
Speaker 2There's a whole group there.
Speaker 1There's a whole group there now yeah, which is like insane.
Speaker 2I had them all over like dinner on Friday night and it was just really wholesome to have them all there and just to see the passion. So it's like what fuels us, I think, and as a collective, is that this is what we needed when we were growing up, and what my hope is is that moving forward eventually, when I have kids and they grow up, they're not going to feel like there is not a place for them and whether that's and then, and also just to support, I guess the destigmatization of mental health in multicultural communities is really big. For example, me coming out and doing this work means that when I was studying, my parents were like, oh, what is psychology? They weren't really new. And now aunties and uncles are sending their kids to come and learn, to intern with me or to do mentorship programs and stuff and be like you should go in and study psychology, or like they're they're talking about mental health within the community. That never used to be spoken about. Or like with my ADHD.
Speaker 2When I told my parents you know they've been so like, even when I went to the conference and I sent them like little snippets of like oh, this was the conference and they were like oh, it's like sorry. The text messages my mom said was like well done. And then she was like I'm sorry again that we didn't understand what ADHD was. But now you're out there and you're champion, champion. She's like you were like basically you're empowering, like spaces, and really makes a difference.
Culturally Responsive Therapy Approaches
Speaker 2And that also just means that people within my family and within my like community as well, have then gone out and gotten diagnosed and gotten support and like are willing, like it's just de-stigmatizing these spaces, otherwise wouldn't be. And, like you know, when we're thinking about culture and we're talking about like neurodiversity, I've had so many times people ask me things like and there's a really good comedian, there's an Australian comedian who does a piece on this too, and I can't remember her name for the life of me, but I'll find it and send it to you the number of times I get asked in therapy how much of this is my ADHD, how much of this is my autism and how much of it is just being Asian and or ethnic, you know like yes, yes, I'm like it's such a valid question, like I, because when you look at culture as a whole, like you know the concept of like you know, and I just it was just really interesting because it's happened so many times and I laugh every time it happens.
Speaker 2One of my clients was like, but I'm just like, I'm just Japanese, and I was like, yeah, she was in for like a, an autism assessment. And I was like, yes, and she's like, but it's in my culture to be like very like rigid about things, yeah, you know, and to have the rules and to follow things a particular way, or like yeah, or like one of my other clients, he was like, oh, how much of this is like adhd and how much of it? Because we were talking about his parents, because, like, he was diagnosed and he's like, but how much of it? Like you know, I've been trying to figure out which side of my family it comes from. But he's like, how much of this is like me or like an adhd, and how much of this is like my mom, just being a Punjabi mom? And I was like you know what? They're all great questions and like. So, looking at the intersectionality of where does trauma play a role? Where does culture play a role? And then, how does neurodiversity play a role has been really fascinating. And not just that, but, like I think, understanding how it presents differently not differently in that the underlying symptoms are so different, but how it might present differently across cultures as well.
Speaker 2Like I was, like you know, I was an A student all throughout. Like high school I was quiet and I was, you know, I did all of the right things because I was supposed to, like you're supposed to be the good kid. You know my parents are migrants. There's so much additional pressure around and like when people are like how come you got through uni, like you know, to study psych, like to go through like the whole six, seven years of it, because I did one of my degrees part-time. They were, like you know, I always got asked the question like how come you didn't notice during uni and it's not that I didn't notice, I was handing in things late. Like you know, my master's thesis was handed in, literally. I remember emailing my supervisor and being like I'm going to send this to you one week later and it was on the due date and he was like no worries. I was like it's not because it hadn't been done, I just got the ick from it so I had to start over. But, like, when I look back at it now, it's like, yes, I did struggle with certain things, like, especially exams I hated exams.
Speaker 2But my context is that I am in New Zealand, I was born in New Zealand and when I moved here, I didn't get my citizenship until 2020, and so what that meant is that I didn't have hex. So all of my like, my whole uni life, was this migrant experience of like and, and I was touched with lucky enough that, like, I wasn't on international rates, but still to pay for like three degrees. It's a lot of money and I, you know, I was living at home, which was great, but then I had to work the whole way through to pay my degree as I was studying. So if you're going to be like, where does your novelty and your motivation come from? Well, if I'm paying for my own degree and I have to work for it, yeah, of course my ADHD is going to be like, on like whatever, and you're doing three degrees yeah and I'm like on, you know, like my brain is like okay, you can't not do.
Speaker 2There's already like a sense of urgency because it's like you have to do well at uni, you're the one paying it and you're the one working to get through it. So it's like it was there, like the pressure is already there and you've got to understand, in the concept of, in the context of like a lot of like first and second generation migrants, you have that internalized or externalized pressure you are trying to survive. So, yeah, it's not going to come up the same way as it would for other people, especially if not, if this is like you know your home country from like the very beginning. You're kind of like there's a lot of cultural context that can be affected. So it's also really interesting as well, because then there's like traits and things like that that can be celebrated in some cultures and pathologize and others right. So high energy, directedness, impulsivity these things are celebrated in my culture.
Speaker 2Like to be direct. Oh my god, I struggle the most in like. Especially when I was working in like bigger organizations, I used to really struggle with the lack of directiveness because, as a South Asian, we just say what's on our face like whatever is like, whatever is happening. We say it, and sometimes to our detriment, I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes aunties will come up to you and they'll be like in the same sentence wow, anushka, you look great, but you've also gained a lot of weight and you, you're like you didn't need to say that that is not great. That was a bit too direct. Maybe keep some things to yourself.
Speaker 2But we're not good at sandwiching things, whereas I find, like within sort of more like Caucasian, australian culture, there's like a compliment sandwich. So it's kind of like here's a nice thing, here's a vague feedback, and here's a nice thing again. And it's like no, I just need you to tell me what is wrong. I need to tell, like, I need it laid out for me in bit by, because I'm not used to that. And then, like that's one of those things where I'm like okay, how much of that comes from my culture, how much of that is actually just because I am neurodivergent and I think it might just be a bit of both. You know, like who knows, it could be a bit of both. You know, like who knows, it could be a bit of both. So it's really interesting picking up on those type of nuances.
Speaker 1So, anushka, someone who might be listening and saying, well, how would I know what is culture and what is neurodivergent, like do and they want to sort of look deeper into themselves. Would they need to get someone who specialises or has interest in culture to sort of understand?
Speaker 2that, yeah, I'd say, go to a therapist who is culturally responsive, because it's and that can look like anything like, and talk to I guess. Yeah, that's what I would say. If you're contacting a therapist, be like to them. Look, I want to get a so-and-so assessment done, but I need someone who understands like cultural nuances and is culturally responsible, culturally sensitive, and the people who've done the work, who have like that understanding around things, will come to you and will, like you know, they'll let you know.
Speaker 2Basically, I mean, it's the work that we do, and I know a lot of people within my circles and frames that do that work as well, where, like, I think, because things are so nuanced and like, look, this is something that I'm working on personally. So next year, if you're a therapist and you're wanting to learn about culture and neurodiversity, I'm going to be dropping a PD, hopefully. Yeah, I'm really excited because, like, I'm like we're one person and so there's only so much stuff that we can take on, but I'm like, if we can spread that word and that knowledge, it'd be really great for people to be able to pick up on. But, yeah, my advice would be go and see someone who is culturally responsive, because then that person is able to sort of like look at the framework and separate what looks like what for you and how to handle different things. Um, in saying that as well, traits are also just traits. So if it's something that needs to be worked on, it just needs to be worked on. Like we've got to remember this like concept of pathologizing stuff comes from like a bunch of people who decided to get together and stick things in a book and so now we go by that and that's okay, it serves a purpose in this capitalistic society.
Speaker 2But ask yourself the question would you be okay if you were back in your home country? Because I can tell you, you for certain, and I'm going home next week when I am in Fiji, my ADHD I am not on any medication, I am chill as it is such a good time because everybody runs on like Fiji time, there is no stress and it's not just like you know, it's not this matter of like going on vacation, it's actually like just going back home and the way that home works because we have a house there. It's actually like just going back home and the way that home works because we have a house there. So when we go back. It's still doing all your basic house things. It just the way that the community works is just so much easier and so much better and it's so much more chill and so much more conducive to like this and like who I am as a person and coming into Melbourne.
Speaker 1I feel sometimes.
Speaker 2I'm like, oh my God, god, there's a big rush and I actually have a client. Yeah, he's 50, he's actually like a white Australian, so we would having a chat. And he's from the country and has a very similar. And this is where I thought, like culture actually comes in into these spaces as well, because the culture out in country is very different. It's very similar to collectivistic cultures where, like you know, you've got people around you and everyone's working together and supporting each other and the ambience is also a lot quieter. And so for him, he's like, since we moved to the city, he's like it's just, he's like I've been going into depression and anxiety and like I'm feeling so stressed out because I'm overwhelmed, overstimulated all the time.
Speaker 2And he's like I just don't know how to explain that to other people that this is like too everything is too much for me and I'm like, yeah, I totally understand that. Like you know, and sometimes you need to think about, like you know, it doesn't matter what your background is. What does culture look like to you? What does it mean to you? Because it might even stem from where you've lived and how you've grown up.
Medication and Supporting Neurodivergent Children
Speaker 1And you could even like me, I have a camping culture, so you, I have a camping culture, so you know, like you said about you, know your, your person, from the country you know it's. It's so important because sometimes neurodivergent brains need quiet, reset, grounding and, like you say, the collective of it, right? So it's not just because we are social beings so it's nice to be out there on your own, but when I'm out with a few other people that are similar, that they're not like, oh, let's make this a dance party.
Speaker 2We need people who are able to sit with you in the silence, like I want to be with you, but I want you to be next to me and don't talk to me that would be great, but I want you to be next to me and don't talk to me.
Speaker 1That would be great. I love that.
Speaker 2I'm over here and then, like at the end of the day, we can debrief about our day.
Speaker 1Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, anoushka, many of the people listening are parents. If you could share just one message with them, what would you really want them to take away from this episode?
Speaker 2I'd say that the one thing that I see with parents yeah, when I work with children in particular is this panic around have I done something wrong? Have I done something wrong? And especially when they hear that, like with neurodiversity, oftentimes it is something that is passed down in families and you know, there's this concept of like, oh, like I have somehow wronged my child or I didn't pick up on something soon enough I should have been there. The fact that you're bringing your kid in to do an assessment and to get them the support that they need, and that you know that you're here, that is so big and that is so enough, that's already already the step, like the 700 steps in the right direction, and the fact that you're like, willing to accept and be open to that. The only other thing that you need to do from here is to continue to listen to them and what their instincts are and trust their instincts, because they are going to know themselves better than anything else. And also, go get yourselves checked out. 98% of the time, people coming in, they're like Anushka, I think I also need an assessment. I'm like yes, probably, I've noticed it. And so, like co-regulate, learn to be there with your kid, understand them, but learn to understand yourself so that you can understand each other better. There's nothing worse, I think and I seen this in both the cultural context and the neurodivergent context where, like I think, where there's intergenerational gaps, if you lack awareness and dismiss something and are not open to understanding each and every person's experience, also based, you know, on like not, yeah, based on like generational gap, I think that opens, like, if widens the gap between yourself and your child, like try and close that gap as much as you can. And I see with, like you know, adolescents and like young adults, they try and close that gap with their parents themselves, but with younger children they don't know how to do that yet.
Speaker 2So, whatever you and it takes a lot of patience it takes a lot of patience to sometimes, like you know, especially if you've got multiple kids who are like neurodivergent, it's like a lot of energy sometimes or like a lot of patience in the sense of if you've not grown up like one of the things like actually not so much like our family, but my cousins grew up hearing a lot of is like back in my day, you know, we just listened when. When we said something once, it was listened to and so when we used to, like you know, hear auntie's uncle say things like that, you'd be like, oh okay, but it's just like I don't know you, just like I don't. Yeah, I think, accept everyone's quirks and their interests and stuff and pay attention. Pay attention to your kid that is maybe being a little bit more quiet and is the good kid, because just because they're not showing your the typical signs of like bouncing off the walls doesn't mean that there isn't something going on for them. Like yeah, it gets overlooked very quickly very quickly 100.
Speaker 1and what about, like parents who might be thinking they've got their neurodivergent so they might have difficulty with? You know, concentrating, organising some of those executive functioning skills? Yeah, what about medication? You know, when they come they say, oh, I don't need medication, but the child is very stressful. You know, and that's when all your quirks really come out. I see, I see that a lot 100%.
Speaker 2I'd say like, look, if you're toying with the idea of medication either for yourself or your child, if and you're unsure of it, that's fine go do the scaffolding first. Put everything that you could possibly put in place for you and your kid that is external to yourself and that is in your environment. But at that point, if you feel like things are still not like it's kind of working, but I need that extra something, take the meds. Just take. The best way that I can describe it is it is the same as taking like.
Speaker 2It's like if you have a vitamin deficiency, if you went to the doctor, the doctor was like you're lacking some vitamin c. You will come home and start taking vitamin c. Literally the psychiatrist is telling you hey, your noradrenaline and your like dopamine levels are not enough. Sometimes it's gonna fluctuate for you and it's the same thing. Just take the meds and like also, speak to your gp about it, because sometimes you can manage your medication in a way that you don't need to be taking it every day. Sometimes maybe it's just like you get used to it and then you take it as you need to take it. There are so many variations and so many options. Like, don't be so scared of it being like the be-all or end-all or that it's going to like impact you in this like crazy, big, terrible way for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2There is actually a lot of yeah, I think there's a lot of flexibility around it, and I think the meds or medication.
Speaker 1I know that. You know it took me about five years to be convinced to take medication, but I've been taking it now. What? Three years, four years, and I'm so much happier. I'm so much happier in my life because you know, you're not anxious. Yeah, well, you're still. You're still you and this is what I say to families. It's and medication is very different now than it used to be, you know. So it's. There's so many different meds out there and doctors who are willing to have a look and say, well, if that one didn't suit you, let's have a look at something else. And it's about quality of life, right For everyone, Not just for yourself, but for your kids too.
Speaker 2A hundred percent, a hundred percent, and it's like you know, I think with medication as well, it's one of those things where, like, I've been on and then off, and then on again, and then it becomes sporadic, but anytime that I have been on it, it, it, and I've come off it for the reasons of burnout, because I'm a very like let's do a million things, and so when I'm on medication I forget to scaffold myself and I just like, I just do all of the things, which leads to its own little issues. But being on meds and being able to get things done and it sounds so silly but like, and this is just the nature of ADHD, I think, is that you just can't, I can't get the little things done every day. Like, what do you mean? I have to make a phone call. I don't want to do that.
Practical Strategies for Daily Life
Speaker 2People sort of and like send an email. I don't want to have to do those things, but when I'm on medication, it's like I can open one tab at a time and get the task done and just move on and it's like, wow, I made all of my phone calls, I sent all of the emails, I responded to my friends and now I have time you don't. The guilt of like not staying connected, the guilt of like not getting things done just doesn't exist, and I think that is like you need to weigh up in your head how much, how much that like means to you as an individual and look, go on the meds, try it out. If it doesn't work for you, it's also not the end of the world. You can also just come off him.
Speaker 1Yeah, I love that, I love that. So, from your experience, what is one practical recommendation or insight that you found especially helpful when supporting neurodivergent people and their families?
Speaker 2Oh, there's so many. Are we talking like practical strategies? Yes, okay, yeah, there's a couple. These are more like physical things. I forget everything all the time. So I have a whiteboard at the back of every door in my house, including the door on the way out, so that I can put things down every time something comes into my mind. I just write it down and then, like, at the end of the week, I go through and collect all my thoughts, but it's been written down, so it's somewhere. I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2Analyze your working memory as much as you can that. What else do I do? I keep like a little. I've got like this really nice like tub from Kmart. I keep one upstairs, one on the stairs and then there's one in every room. So you know how. You just like leave things lying around on like tables and stuff and you don't want to put them away because that's a lot of work. Lying around on like tables and stuff, and you don't want to put them away because that's a lot of work. I like, if there's too many things, I just keep putting things into the tub and then again, when the tub fills up, then it's time to pick that up and take it into whatever rooms it needs to go back to, so I don't need to tidy all at once.
Speaker 2I have timers for everything, everything. So to combat waiting mode because, like, for example, I knew we had this. So to combat waiting mode because, like, for example, I knew we had this today. To combat waiting mode, and if things are not in my calendar, because I'm married to my calendar, that's it. I will put timers for literally everything in my day. And it's like siri just knows that I have to have like a timer. I was like, hey, siri set a timer for 4 pm today and it was just like it's there, so I can, I can physically see the countdown.
Speaker 2Right, yes, right, but I can get things done on time, Otherwise guaranteed I will miss it. I'll miss whatever is going to happen in my day if I don't have a time before it.
Speaker 1Oh, I love that. I love that that's so practical. Yeah, and I love the basket idea, because there are days that you don't feel like tidying.
Speaker 2No, you don't feel like tidying.
Speaker 1No, you don't like the visual clutter?
Speaker 2right, I don't like visual clutter. I like everything in piles and organised, but also don't want to have to take everything down.
Speaker 1Yeah, I love that. And then there are days that you're just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, those days the basket can be empty, the basket's empty, yeah.
Speaker 2It's the same thing with things on my stairs. If I put things, like when I'm at the bottom of the stairs and things have to come up the stairs, everything keeps going in the basket until it's too full and it's like, oh, now I'm on my way up and this is full. I guess I have to bring it up.
Speaker 1I love that because we've got stairs as well, and I'm always putting it on the stairs.
Speaker 2My stairs are not put too like cups, mugs, things like earrings, God knows what else, and it's all just like lying around.
Speaker 1Oh, I love that, I love that. So I like to ask all my guests this question what do you see as your neurodiverse strength or difference or magic that makes you uniquely, you?
Speaker 2I think it's a combination of my creative and innovative thinking, but the fact that the creative and innovative thinking comes from my spider web thinking, so the way that I the reason I call it spider web thinking, is because in my one and no one's gonna be able to see this but I do this like thing with my hand. You know, when you like open your hand up. I don't know if anyone's watched like Iron man, but if you, if you're a Marvel fan and you've seen Iron man, when Tony Stark comes out with Jarvis and he's like I think it's in like the Avengers movie and he like throws it and everything opens up around him and that's his brain. That's how my brain functions and in my ideal world we we get to the point of that technology so that I can see what's in my head and everything can just be moved around and be nice. So I think like that. It's very much like a big web and everything is interconnected and I think that is one of the most beautiful things because it means that as I'm having conversation with people and in moments I will come up with like ideas that like otherwise wouldn't come about, and I think it's very outside the box thinking.
Speaker 2It's what makes me resourceful. It's the reason that my organization has grown as much as it has. It's the reason that we are so open to like letting like new people, young people, anybody come through and be like we have an idea and why I'm so like we have the audacity. Let's just do the thing and see what happens. And I think the reason that, like, I'm okay with failure because it's like we do it. What's the worst? What's the worst thing that could happen in life? We at least we gave it a shot.
Neurodiverse Strengths and Spider Web Thinking
Speaker 2So I think the fact that my brain allows me to think like that, I think that's really special. I think I think it definitely has its spaces where, like when the negative thinking comes in and it does all of that and the RSD kicks in. That part is terrible. But when I'm able to use it for like 80 of the time it is this. It's like when I'm able to just use it for my day-to-day wow, things are beautiful and big and amazing. I think it's led me to places and opportunities that I wouldn't have been able to get to if I was neurotypical. I wouldn't break my brain for the world. I'm very happy with it.
Speaker 2Beautiful, I love that Shits me up the wall, but yeah.
Speaker 1I love that. And what do you do for rest? Do you rest?
Speaker 2That's such a good question. Do I rest? Yeah, rest has been a battle for me. I struggle with it because I get really uncomfortable sitting still. But in terms of rest, think I've had a few different things. I mapped out a few, a few almost like a year ago now, like the different types of rest that I think I need to be able to sustain my energy level. So that includes things like physical rest, emotional rest, like social rest and things like that.
Speaker 2So to rest I try to stay stimulated enough that my brain doesn't feel like it's going to explode. I paint, I re-watch the same TV shows over and over again, I paint, I listen to music, I go to the gym, I do improv comedy, I cook and I sleep a lot when I have a chance. So one of the things I was doing and I really miss doing this and I need to reintroduce it next year is like one Sunday of every month I would just do like a self-care, like reset day, and literally it would mean that I was sleeping until whatever time I want to sleep. Until then the kebab shop near my house opens at 12 pm, I would order a HSP. I would turn on my favorite TV show or movie for that day.
Speaker 2Pjs, right, have a shower as the food comes in. I would sit there and I would just give myself permission to watch whatever I wanted and eat whatever I want, and then, like, go for a walk and then come back and decide do you want to do something creative, do you want to journal, do you want to continue watching TV? And just let myself indulge in all of the things that I enjoy doing. And at least once a month it's like my reset day, to be like you need to just chill the fuck out a little bit.
Speaker 1And especially as a business owner right, oh yeah. And a leader in your industry and you're holding a community.
Speaker 2You industry and you're holding a community, you do need to have that rest because it's one of those things, like I think, because we I do all of the, the basic. You know, like I work throughout the week and then, like last weekend, you know, we had like Friday night, then we had Saturday night, we had where we had an event, so really I only had Sunday. And then there's like life outside of work also happens and I think you're right when you're running your own thing and there's there's people reporting to me even if I have a day off. I don't really have a day off because I've got messages coming through to be like, hey, can we do this, can we do that? Is this okay? Question about that.
Speaker 2And so it is never ending. And you know, when you've got a neurodivergent brain, your brain is always on the go anyway, like you're just constantly thinking when there is no space to think. So trying to find active ways to rest is really important. But I think the reason that I started emphasizing it more recently is because I did burn out two, three years ago and it was a really bad burnout and it's taken two, three years to recover from burnout.
Speaker 1How did that look like? What does it?
Speaker 2look like oh God, I was so like I went into my shell. I don't want to talk to anybody. I was exhausted all of the time, no energy to get up and do any of the things that I was supposed to be doing. Also, just irritable. I was just annoyed at everybody, especially if you were close to me. I was irritated at my family and my friends and just the world. And then you start losing passion. Right Like I, there's like a little spark that I think I have and that had dimmed down. It hadn't like extinguished, but it was dimmed down and then everything just felt like another thing and like that's already like a trap you can fall into, especially when you're, like, if you're ADHD or autistic, like one of the things that we make the biggest mistakes of doing is if we are striving to achieve something. Once we achieve it, we're not like wow, that's a great thing, I'm so excited. We're like, oh, check box. It's as if we're folding socks and putting socks away. They have the same equivalent excitement in our body.
Speaker 1We don't appreciate ourselves enough.
Speaker 2Just keep going, we just keep going. And so, like you know, being even mindful of things like that, like the small things, like that, I've started doing things like a gratitude thread with myself. So I send an email to myself every day about the things that went well that day, and it's just like email back and forth. So I wake up in the morning I'm like, oh yeah, yesterday was a good day, good things did happen. You're allowed to celebrate these things or putting down like a win for like that day, because we just let it go, we, because we just let it go, we let it all slip by and then that just perpetuates the cycle for everything. But yeah, the burnout was really bad. It was like a huge crash and I was so tired all the time and just like no motivation or energy to do anything, which is already hard when you have ADHD. Especially having ADHD, like it's something that I don't have a lot of.
Speaker 1But how did you turn the corner, Anushka? What did you do?
Speaker 2I just started saying no to everything because you know the thing that I realised just because you can doesn't mean you should, and I think this is like across the board If you are neurodivergent, 100% you can do the thing. There is no doubt that you can't do the thing. We are very skilled people. Sometimes I feel like a very useless skilled person. I am a skilled person nonetheless, so I can do the thing. Should I? Probably not. Probably not so many times I've had to be like just because you can doesn't mean you should. And so now I what I?
Speaker 2What I think about it in this sense now is that before I say yes to doing anything it doesn't matter what it is professional or personal life before I say yes to doing anything I think about every time I say yes to something, I'm saying no to something else. So if I'm going to say yes to doing like whatever, like this podcast episode, or to, I don't know, seeing a client or helping a friend out or overextending myself somehow, what am I saying no to? Am I saying no to going to the gym today? Am I saying no to having that like downtime that I need at the end of the day? Am I saying no to cooking a meal instead of, like you know, buying a meal instead of cooking one, like what am I saying no to what's being replaced by that, and that I think as a cost benefit and not like analysis in my head, really goes a long way.
Speaker 1I love that. Yeah, so it's a tiny shift.
Rest, Burnout and Recovery
Speaker 2Yeah, it truly has changed my life, because now I like it's not that I do, I mean like I do a lot of things, but I know where my capacity is now and I've started listening to my body, I've started listening to my brain and I'm like, okay, cool Energy is here now. So listening to yourself and it takes a bit of time to tune into that and I think I'm still working on it a little bit, but like definitely a huge improvement to like two, three years ago, like it was not a good time, wow.
Speaker 1So let's look to the future. Anushka and the yes and no's. So what gives you hope when you think about the future? The future for you, for for your business, for the field of neurodiversity, for your clients? What do you think is possible? What's coming in this field?
Speaker 2I I have a lot of hope because I think I'm surrounded by some really incredible people who are also passionate and and yeah, like, want to do the work, which is really great, and genuinely want to do the work, which is beautiful. There's a lot of authenticity, so I'm hopeful for my business in that regard, I think. But I think as a whole for the field and within the space of neurodiversity, I think we're starting to talk about it more and although it like I know there's a lot of criticism of like people are talking about ADHD and autism on like TikTok and there's all these reels and, oh my God, so many people are getting diagnosed. You know what? I would rather everyone be a bit over diagnosed than not be diagnosed at all. You know, at the very least, come and like learn about things.
Speaker 2If that is triggering somebody to be like I need to go check something out. That's, I think, actually like it's still a win, because we've been so under diagnosed, so under research for such a long time that now we're getting more and more people in these spaces, and especially in the spaces of like research and in community and in doing things a little bit differently, that, like, maybe, just maybe, fingers crossed. We're heading in a direction where this world will start being shaped for people like us, and if there's enough of us that are trying to do that work to shape the world in a way that is conducive to people like us, then, like I think that it's the same as that concept around, like equality versus equity right, if we make the world equitable enough for people who are neurodivergent, everyone's going to benefit.
Speaker 2I can't see anyone who's not going to benefit if we're not doing that. And I think, because now there are more voices I think at least now I feel like our voices are getting heard a little bit more Maybe that is going to evoke change. Maybe that is going to lead us to a place where, like, okay, all of these things that are causing the tiredness, the burnout, the exhaustion in everybody, maybe we'll start putting things in place that is just going to be a little bit more conducive and supportive of us. At least that's my hope. I hope that we're heading in that direction. It feels like it. Some days it doesn't feel like it, but some days I'm like you know what? No, there are enough people out here and we are doing the work, and like you're not going to see the results right now, but maybe, like 10, 15 years, something will happen and that's still better than nothing.
Speaker 1And that's what I loved about the conference because I wouldn't have met you. I wouldn't have met you on the podcast. You know, we're all in our little silos and I just loved that there were so many professionals there that were as passionate doing the work and just doing creative work right and doing research, and I just was like blown away and I said to my staff I said oh we're all going next year, because it just fills the cup.
Speaker 1It does, it does, it does, and especially for, I think, people who are working in this sector and we are constantly. We know this sector and you just sort of step to the left or step to the right and you think what's going on there? It just validated for me what I already know, that we are already doing great work, and you know, it's just about working together.
Speaker 2Yeah, what was that? And that the work is being done. Because this is. It's so quick, easy for us like, especially when we're in like in our own little bubbles, that it kind of starts feeling like, oh my god, what if it's not being done? What if I have to take it all? What if I have to be the one to do it? Then that start starts feeling like overwhelming, because you're like, oh, there are there, like you know, like-minded people out there. What's the deal? There's just so much that goes through our minds and just to be able to connect and be like, oh no, everyone is doing work and we're all these puzzle pieces are going to come and they're going to fit into each other, like that's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 1Anushka, thank you very much for saying yes to the podcast, and you are truly an inspiration and I love your energy and when you speak, I so get it, I so relate and I know that people back at work are waiting to hear this episode. So thank you so much, anushka, for being on the show today.
Speaker 2Thank you so much for this opportunity. It was so wholesome, and I just love these chats. These are so great. Oh yeah, they're amazing. Thank you so much for this opportunity. It was so wholesome, and I just love these chats. These are so great.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, they're amazing. Thank you Thanks.
