SEASON 2 NEURODIVERSITY - Episode 7: Beyond Shame: Discovering the Joy in Your Brain Architecture (Sarah Eagle, Neurodivergent Consultant, Business Owner and Advocate)

What happens when we reframe neurodivergence not as a deficit, but as a natural variation in brain architecture? Sarah Eagle, founder of Joy Diving Australia and late-diagnosed autistic woman with ADHD, offers a refreshing perspective that celebrates brain differences rather than pathologizing them.

After losing her brother Ben during a psychotic episode in 2001, Sarah channelled her grief into walking 600 kilometres along Western Australia's Bibbulum Track to raise awareness for mental health. Years later, following her own neurodivergent diagnosis, she created Joy Diving Australia—a name inspired by both her love of scuba diving and her mission to help others discover what brings their unique brains joy.

Sarah speaks candidly about the shame many late-diagnosed adults carry after years of being told they need to be "normal." Through her work, she helps clients develop what she calls "sensory lifestyle medicine"—practical adjustments to their environment that support nervous system regulation. For families, she introduces polyvagal theory as a framework to understand behaviours as communications of the nervous system, fostering non-blaming language around regulation and dysregulation.

The conversation explores how workplaces can better accommodate neurodivergent employees, with Sarah highlighting the importance of environmental adjustments and the new psychosocial legislation that can support these changes. She's developing resources to help neurodivergent individuals navigate workplace accommodations and financial challenges, recognising that many late-diagnosed people face significant economic disadvantages.

Perhaps most touching is Sarah's ability to approach her own neurodivergent experiences with curiosity and compassion rather than shame. She shares a story about mistaking an optical illusion for a glass door—a perceptual "glitch" that she views not as a deficit but as a fascinating insight into how her brain works.

Listen to discover how understanding and embracing your unique brain type can transform your experience of life, reduce shame, and open doorways to joy you never thought possible. How might your life change if you approached your own brain differences with curiosity instead of judgment?

danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services

Transcript

Speaker 1 1:18

Today on the Empowered Parent Podcast. I'm so excited to welcome you, sarah Eagle, all the way from the Mornington Peninsula what a beautiful place that is. You are the founder of Joy Diving Australia and you bring such courage, warmth and authenticity. I saw your talk at the Neurodivergence and Wellbeing Conference in the Gold Coast last month and I was inspired by you, and that's why I invited you here to inspire more people that I can support and reach out to. As a neurodivergent woman yourself, you know firsthand what it feels like to be wired differently in a world that doesn't always make room for that difference. So welcome, sarah.

Speaker 2 2:09

Thank you so much. It's such a delight to chat with you. It's great to connect.

Speaker 1 2:15

Your story is deeply moving. After losing your brother, ben, during a psychotic episode in 2001, you honoured his memory by walking the entire Bibbulum Track in Western Australia so that was over 1,000 kilometres to raise awareness for mental health. That is inspirational.

Speaker 2 2:40

Look, I have to be honest, I was very lazy and only did 600 kilometres, but that was my first overnight walk 600.

Speaker 1 2:51

That's huge 600.

Sarah's Personal Journey with Neurodivergence

Speaker 1 2:54

That is not lazy. That is not lazy. That act of love and determination has shaped the way you continue to show up for others and just from our little chat before the podcast, I just feel that you have such a big reach, you know, for the families that you support and I can't wait to dive in after my little introduction and you do this with compassion and courage. In 2023, following your own autism and ADHD diagnosis, you created Joy Diving Australia, a space where people can experience belonging, where difference is celebrated and where stigma gives way to safety and strength. Before I go on to my prepared questions, Sarah, why Joy Diving Australia? What's in that name?

Speaker 2 3:53

So and this is all linked into my own diagnosis and discovering my own brain type I spent many years after my brother Ben's death going down. What I now know is this autistic social justice avenue of why did he get discharged from psychiatric care? Why did all these things that happened that led to his death and I burnt myself out. I experienced lots of suicidal ideation and what I now know is autistic burnout through that fierce social justice advocacy and so when I was finally diagnosed it was like putting on a cloak of compassion that this it's. There's. There's a reason why life has been really challenging for me in a lot of different ways and part of my own process of you know it takes time when you're late diagnosed to process and you review your life through this whole new lens and things sort of make more sense. Over a period of time I came to understand how unhealthy or how my brain was really wired at doing systemic advocacy work externally for others and I realized I actually needed to shift that and focus. I actually needed to do a lot of healing because there's been a lot of externalized ableism, discrimination, prejudice, shaming, which I had internalized, and the name Joy Diving came about is because I found.

Speaker 2 5:27

I find solace and my nervous system is really calmed. Scuba diving, which I took up post-diagnosis, and so the feeling I get when my nervous system and my body when we're, when I'm in the water weekly because I live close to the piers here and beautiful diving spots, I've got my own gear, it's accessible for me. The feeling my nervous system gets is so deeply calming and so medicinal and it gives me so much joy to dive with the local puff of fish who are my favourite. I wanted to have a name that reminds me of my own joy, my own nervous system calm. But also I work with people to help them work out what brings their nervous system joy.

Speaker 2 6:15

So it's Diving for Joy for Every Unique Brain, brain type, because I do firmly believe the level of joy I feel post-diagnosis was not accessible to me pre-diagnosis because my nervous system was so heightened and so dysregulated and so anxious and uptight. But, learning self-literacy about my own brain type, I consciously practice calming down. I do a lot of things every day to keep my nervous system regulated and I do believe through that I actually have a lot more joyful moments because my brain is not in fight, flight, fear, fawn as much.

Speaker 1 6:56

I loved when I was thinking about joy diving. I thought it might have something to do with actual diving, given that you live on the Mornington Peninsula, that I know now. But I also thought about, you know, diving deep into your own brain type and the joy that it brings when you dive deep, right and you are like a buddy scuba diver to people when they do diving into people's brains.

Understanding Shame in Late Diagnosis

Speaker 1 7:19

you know, absolutely, absolutely. And you are like a buddy scuba diver to people when they do the dive into people's brains. You know, absolutely, absolutely. Everyone just needs to have their own snorkel and their own mouthpiece. Right, that's it.

Speaker 2 7:31

Yeah, absolutely, and you wear whatever tank you need, that suits. You wear that Whatever wetsuit works for your type. Do that and I'll take you through like a tour guide.

Speaker 1 7:42

Yeah, I love that, I love that so, sarah, when you think about neurodiversity we've touched on this a little bit now in your life and in your work what does it mean to you personally, as in to me? Yes, well, I think neurodiversity. And then for your clients, for yourself, and then for your clients.

Speaker 2 8:10

Yeah, I think neurodiversity is a very natural like. We all have different brain types. I have blue eyes. I could have brown eyes. I have a particular brain type that has a slightly larger amygdala. Some people don't have that. I think it's a very healthy expression of brain architecture and I think that there's a lot of labels that the medical model uses, like bipolar autism, adhd, dyslexia I can't even say that word HD dyslexia, I can't even say that word dyscalculia, I can't say it. We have these labels to give us a language, but they do come from the deficit model. I don't believe, I don't think these things actually really exist. To an extent, it's just a categorisation of experiences. So there's value in having the label, but there's also great harm, as we can see through the deficit model. That comes with a lot of shame and a lot of prejudice and discrimination.

Speaker 1 9:16

Let's talk about shame. Let's talk about shame because we started talking about it before the podcast as well. Do you feel like a lot of your clients a lot of them are adults, some of them are parents do they come with shame to you?

Speaker 2 9:31

Yeah, I think shame is probably the biggest factor or obstacle barrier that somebody late diagnosed will come to me with and they won't won't call it shame. It'll present in a lot of different ways and I think coming to terms with your own diagnosis is really a big part of understanding shame, shame spirals, the role it plays and how we developed it. Why have we got this deep sense that there's something wrong with me? I'm not good enough, I can't keep up with my peers, others can do it. And how do we make space for it and how do we accept that it's there? Because accepting it and shining light on it helps it dissipate and can bring great self-compassion and kindness.

Speaker 1 10:22

And it is. It's like, you know, some people had suppressed it and hid it right from themselves, or their families were telling them that they need to be a certain way. Education systems tell us that we need to learn a certain way, we need to sit a certain way, we need to listen a certain way, we need to be a certain way. You know, doctors also, like everything, is on the standard. You know, are you one? What is it? Plus or minus, two standard deviations above or below the mean. You know all of that in terms of what is normal. You know all of that in terms of what is normal, and I think you know our society is. Hopefully we are chilling out a little bit and seeing more of this beautiful tapestry that we have in front of us. Our society has really put people in boxes, haven't they, and labelled them.

Speaker 2 11:19

Yes, we've got this reductionist model from the medical model that came out, you know, 100 or so years ago, yeah, and I think this neurodiversity lens. I hope and I do think we're heading in this way, you know how. I mean we have these, like we do a lot of research in cbt so that then we can have an efficient treatment plan and we can say this is six sessions and this person will be recovered from anxiety. And I think the neurodiversity model is actually saying we can't have these one-size-fits-all treatment programs. We actually need to get rid of that, even though it's efficient and a cost-saving approach. We actually need to get to know the brain in front of us and do person-centered, person-developed, tailored supports for each individual.

Speaker 1 12:14

These blanket programs and treatment programs, I mean maybe they'll still work for some challenges and they could be like a baseline, right, so there's a baseline, but the baseline has to be flexible as well. And I know, with the NDIS, you know putting people in boxes and eligibility criteria, and you know now, with the difference that's coming for the zero to nine-year-old kids from next year, that you have to be mild to moderate, to sorry, you've got to be severe to be able to get onto the NDIS. Mild to moderate are going to go onto this other program. You know, like all these labels and you know I guess that's all come out after the. When I went to the conference I was so full of hope and joy and vision and this is it. And you know people from all over Australia, new Zealand were there and we're all. And then all of a sudden it's like oh yeah.

Speaker 2 13:15

It's a reality.

Neurodiversity and Workplace Challenges

Speaker 1 13:16

Do you find that you know, when people come to you, even like when parents come to you, and you know you and them talk about the beauty of their child and everything, and then they go and interface the systems and the schools or whatever the child is in, that they become disillusioned and you know it's quite harsh, isn't it? It's quite harsh, having to advocate.

Speaker 2 13:43

Yeah, and the level of advocacy that we're required or parents are required to do to get rid of ableism or to have basic access to education or NDIS or support, is extraordinary. And a lot of these parents, as we know, because it's extraordinary, it's, and a lot of these parents, as we know, because it's genetic, neurodivergent or you know, have their own challenges and whatever that is for them, I think, um, I, I find so I support a lot of my clients to become passionate advocates and we might collaborate on projects to get that sense of you're not alone. What you're saying is, you know, very valid and reasonable and there are solutions to sort of help people not feel hopeless and helpless. Yeah, of.

Speaker 1 14:39

Yeah. So you play a very important role in this space, helping people be advocates and you do a lot of work on telehealth. Could you tell us a little bit about like what your what? A I don't want to say regular client? There's no such thing but what's your bread and butter Like? What does that look like? What does Sarah Eagle do through Joy Diving Australia? If someone came to you and said what do you do? How can you help me? What would you say to them?

Speaker 2 15:10

I do so many things. One of my main focuses is working one-on-one with late diagnosed people to help them develop an understanding of their own unique brain type. And how do we? We can we explore sensory modulation? I call it sensory lifestyle medicine. How can you use the sensory environment?

Speaker 2 15:31

I love that yeah, and that can be using smart globes or whatever it is for each person like. Like one of my favourites is to if my brain's really tired in the morning, I'll put on a podcast or an audio book, but I'll speed it up and the pace helps me get my brain into gear, or I'll slow it right down. I mean, there's simple adjustments that it's great to have as part of normal conversation in family groups as well family systems. So, yeah, I love working with late diagnosed people because there's a big gap in the system in the in the in Australia for evidence-based, person-centered lived experience, and it fits in from my career background.

Speaker 2 16:14

I also work in workplaces helping with the new psychosocial legislation, how to make the workplace sustainable for neurodivergent people or different brain types, and if workplaces don't do that, they're at risk of it's very expensive for them and could go to work cover or a whole lot of other issues. A lot of training as well, and I'm doing some really fun advocacy projects as well, creating like a group. It's like a, a course to use a budgeting tool, because a lot of late diagnosed people are financially behind the eight ball and the number one goal is to reduce shame and to normalise this, but also teach late diagnosed women and men how to manage their budget in a supportive, non-judgmental environment. And talk about super and whatever else we need to talk about Wow, I love that.

Speaker 2 17:12

Yeah, that's a really fun project yeah.

Speaker 1 17:16

And also, like you know, many people that are neurodivergent. You know they're given funding, like, say, going through the NDIS, and you know some people want to self-manage their funds. But that is quite a big ask. And now they've got the quarters coming out, where everyone gets money every quarter. So am I going to have enough, am I not? There's a lot of stress. This is not just personal budget, this is budget for services, right?

Speaker 2 17:47

yes, absolutely wow yeah and shame. Yeah, I did. I did a little survey to get an idea of what is this a need and the results were really heartbreaking. And and what to what we'd expect people would were saying they're too frightened, they're too ashamed to even look at their bank account. But a lot of the participants were women late 40s, 50s and we know that's the growing the highest rate of homelessness for women. We have that risk and I wonder how many of these people are neurodivergent who are becoming homeless. So if we can make it a really supportive, compassionate budgeting tool that's easy to manage and navigate and address the emotional with that, it's not a therapeutic course but just through doing it, kind of building that habit, learning to manage the distress of opening your bank account and normalizing that yeah, and, and you know lots of people that are neurodivergent.

Speaker 1 19:29

They have difficulty with employment, as we know, and difficulty in keeping jobs long term. Or even if they're not neurodivergent and their kids are neurodivergent, you know there's appointments, there's sick days, there's meltdown days, there's their own mental health days. So I know that you've done quite a bit of work with workplaces. So what are some areas? If, say, say, a parent is listening and they're like, yeah, my workplace does not understand me, what can I do? If I went to my manager, what can I say to my manager?

Speaker 2 20:08

Well, this is a tricky one, because if a person doesn't feel comfortable disclosing, I would never push somebody to disclose if they were in any way frightened. If a person doesn't feel comfortable disclosing, that's. I would never push somebody to disclose if they were in any way frightened.

Speaker 1 20:23

To say that they're neurodivergent, right?

Supporting Neurodivergent Parents and Families

Speaker 2 20:25

Yes, If they're comfortable and it's already disclosed, then I'm actually about to release some resources exactly for this how to speak to your manager and what to look for. And workplaces need a lot of education around different brain types and we need to normalize this so you know the fluro lights, the open plan desk there's a lot of things in the environment that can be causing a brain distress and can lead to burnout and suicidal ideation and losing their job or leaving their work. So it kind of I'm not really answering your question, but it's kind of I would recommend, if people are not willing to personalise it and make it about, kind of I would recommend, if people are not willing to personalize it and make it about them is to recommend to management that there's neurodivergent training for the workplace. Make it broad. Starting from that would be my and where do they?

Speaker 1 21:31

get that, sarah? Is that something you do?

Speaker 2 21:34

I definitely do it it.

Speaker 1 21:36

Sarah Eagle neurodivergent training in the workplace. You heard it here.

Speaker 2 21:43

It's great, I really enjoy it, and I'll do environmental snapshots too. Walk through an environment and say, if you change this, this will help this area. All about calming the nervous system and how to make it more accessible calming the nervous system and how to make it more accessible.

Speaker 1 22:00

So, basically, it's people need to know that they're not alone, right, yes, so, for example, if someone's listening and they're like, yeah, I'm really struggling with my workplace, could they reach out to you and get some individual advice? Absolutely, absolutely About what they can do for their situation.

Speaker 2 22:22

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 22:23

Yeah, because when I listened to your talk I was really inspired about you know that there isn't enough awareness in workplaces and that people, I mean I think it's coming, but it just depends where you work and what you do, right.

Speaker 2 22:41

Yes, well, and this new psychosocial legislation in the workplace is actually really important and something that neurodivergent people can lean on to get adjustments made. The tricky part is HR and workplaces often are not aware. The tricky part is HR and workplaces often are not aware. So the legislation says workplaces must do regular hazard assessments, risk assessments on what the psychosocial hazards might be. So we know that autism, adhd and neurodivergence is not a mental illness.

Speaker 2 23:13

Yeah, and so we need to draw that link for them, and that's the resources I'm creating yeah yeah, to really highlight that, while autism, abhd are not mental illnesses, when the environment is not, is is not calibrated to us. It can lead to quite significant mental health issues, yeah, and so workplaces need a lot of education around that, including masking sensory processing challenges communication differences, flexibility.

Speaker 1 23:51

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. I just love I'm going off the course here because I just love talking to you, sarah, about all these wonderful things. So, from your experience and from your work with families, what would be one practical recommendation or insight that you found especially helpful when supporting neurodivergent people and their families, neurodivergent adults and their children? Do you find that some of them have real difficulty with parenting? Do you need to refer them to any place that's going to help them? Like, how do you support neurodivergent parents?

Speaker 2 24:33

I love working with neurodivergent parents so I use polyvagal theory and I approach each person and I sort of I do the education with the family that every brain type within your family is unique and behaviors are a form of communication of the nervous system. So supporting parents to understand when they are dysregulated and when they're regulated, what helps them to regulate. And families then have beautiful conversations around with their children around regulation and dysregulation. It gives a lovely non-blaming language around. I need time to rest. My nervous system is really tired rather than you know. I've just got to leave the room.

Speaker 1 25:24

Leave me alone. Yeah, I need a break from you. Leave me alone, and it's still okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 25:32

And parents can still do that and repair that by saying oh sorry, I got angry, I was really dysregulated and I know when I'm dysregulated I can't access this frontal part of my brain and there's language you can use for children around that, so it's accessible and then you can get the family to talk about. How do we make our living room really calming for our nervous system.

Speaker 1 25:56

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 2 25:58

Yeah, so then everybody gets involved and we can run little experiments. Do you want to try dimming the lights for the week and let me know what you think?

Speaker 1 26:08

I love that, Sarah. And very practical, right, yeah, Very practical. Very practical, Because sometimes you know people that are auditory sensitive or visually sensitive and another person needs a lot of stimulation so they'll have a TV on full blast. They've got like a TV that's as big as the wall. And another you know another family member just like, oh gosh, it's too much, yeah.

The Illusion: Finding Strength in Glitches

Speaker 2 26:35

So so that usually creates tension, but if you frame it, oh, he's actually his body needs that. How can we set this up so that you get what your brain needs and that person gets that? But if you I also love the, I love bringing in their own wisdom in solution finding. I'll give suggestions, if needed, or recommendations, or do you want to hear what I think or tell them the latest evidence on it? But how can you operationalise that at home? What would work for you at home?

Speaker 1 27:08

I love that. I love that. So I ask my guests this question, all of them and what do you see as your own neurodiverse strength or difference that makes you uniquely?

Speaker 2 27:19

you, sarah ah, this is a funny. Can I tell you a funny story absolutely.

Speaker 2 27:29

I love stories okay, it might take a couple of minutes, but I think it helps. Yeah, I think so. My brain can do really great systems thinking and advocacy and can see patterns and things like that. It can do it really quite well with the right supports. I'm an NDIS participant so I have my own supports as well. So it can do some things really well and it can glitch out and it's hysterically funny and I think this is what makes my brain my brain. So before the conference. This is hysterically funny. I think other people would feel deep shame, but I don't.

Speaker 2 28:05

I was quite anxious about doing the talks. I haven't done a public talk in a long time and I was staying at the conference center and I went down to the gym because I find strength training really helps regulate my emotions. So it was five o'clock in the morning and you know, autistic, I'm navigating the gym looking at my little program, where's the equipment? And I handled that well, loved it, because it was quite dark. Yeah, listening to my favorite music to prepare, and then on the way out it's like six o'clock.

Speaker 2 28:35

I'm going to get a coffee and then I'll go do my hair and whatever else I need to prepare for the talk yeah and I had to go out through this glass door into this little foyer, and then there was another glass door to get me into the lobby of the conference downstairs yeah and I pushed the button to get out the second door.

Speaker 2 28:54

So I got through the first one and then I went to push the button to get out the second door. So I got through the first one and then I went to push the button to get out the second and it didn't open, I think. Oh no. So I was looking around, I was pressing different buttons, starting to get anxious and uptight, started muttering. Oh, you know, swearing under my breath. This isn't good enough, you know?

Speaker 2 29:16

really, just this is being human basically yeah, and starting to feel confined and trapped and I've got to talk, to give. And so I called the hotel, the conference center, the resort, and it said press one if you want to play golf, press two. And got up to like number seven. So I'm getting more agitated and the lovely guy at reception said it's David here, david, it's Sarah, I'm a guest, and I'm stuck in the gym. He said, oh, I'm so sorry, I'll come right around. This is the weirdest thing. So there's the glass door that I couldn't get out of and he walked straight through it. There was no glass door there at all. Wow, what was happening there? It was an illusion.

Speaker 2 30:06

Wow, yeah, so that was like a major brain, your visual spatial brain was like playing tricks on you Totally like an absolute, it's like this metaphorical there's no glass door, there's no obstacle, it's all in your mind, In your mind right, All in your mind. So as he's walked through, I put my arms through the door in absolute connection, like how? What's this dark magic?

Speaker 1 30:34

David, what have you got that? I don't. How did you do that?

Speaker 2 30:39

wow, this is, yeah, it's totally mind-blowing. I did go and I begged. Could you send me the CCTV footage because I just want to see when my mind just is blown at that minute, when that second he's walked through like how, what?

Speaker 1 30:56

yeah, amazing. So your strength is to understand your brain and you're learning about your brain all the time. You talk a lot about brains, right?

Speaker 2 31:05

yes, I do everybody with brains with their brain and you're always yeah, I'm fascinated by it and I think probably the part of within that's that you consider a strength is that I hold it all very lightly, I don't have shame, and I think that's an important in my role. I want to share that, that this is just a glitch, like I, it's funny and like wow, how does that actually? Let's be really curious about what's going on. It's not a deficit, it's a really strange glitch.

Hope for the Future of Neurodiversity

Speaker 1 31:40

And also compassion, right, compassion? That your nervous system was so heightened so heightened that your brain was seeing things that weren't there, and that's what happens to many of us, I know. For me, you know like I perceive things that are not there, or I hear things that I mishear, I misread, and I know my staff are always like laughing at me and going what did you read that? As I don't know, but I was really sure that that's what it said, you know. So it's about being able to surround yourself with people and have the Davids of the world to come and rescue you. Yes, so it's about being able to surround yourself with people and have the davids of the world to come and rest. But you still had the problem solving capacity to be able to call reception, and you had the patience to wait until that number came up right.

Speaker 1 32:31

So no, you didn't want golf, you just needed someone to walk through your glass door, that's right. I love that. So, to finish, what gives you hope, sarah, when you think about the future, our future, where neurodiversity is truly celebrated and belonging is possible for everyone?

Speaker 2 32:53

I think having great conversations with people like yourself and knowing that you and I are not alone, that there's many of us out there fiercely advocating, fiercely, fiercely is not the right word. That sounds a bit aggressive, but we're passionate. Yeah, this social justice, yeah, it's so important for many of us and I see it. Going to the conference was really uplifting for me, as we talked about before we started it was for me as well.

Speaker 1 33:22

I don't know it was the vibe right and I've been to quite a few conferences, but there was nothing like this one, because it was so even-keeled and there was so many different people there from all walks of life and there were people that were really high up in the research world. And there was so many different people there from all walks of life and there were people that were really high up in the research world and there were people that were just there because they're neurodivergent. They wanted to hear what, what's going on? Um, there were parents that you know. I just found it incredible. I just found the acceptance and abundance. It was acceptance and abundance there. You know, it was just incredible. It was like being under a beautiful quilt on a cold morning. I just loved it so much yeah.

Speaker 2 34:06

And, yeah, knowing, yes, I think sometimes my brain gets oh, I need to do this and this for every field, like every problem that I see. But that was so affirming Actually. No, no, I can relax because there's brilliant brains on it.

Speaker 1 34:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was really nice to see people had a set time that they had to present, but you know, like nobody can present their amazing work in that time frame, it was really quite hard and and you know, everybody was just so, just so, giving of their time and their listening and their, you know it was, it was just all compassion. I just felt compassion and love. That's what I felt.

Speaker 2 34:49

I completely agree. I actually really want a lot of my clients to come with me next year. Yeah, for that sense of hope and I understand yeah and these are the things we need.

Speaker 1 35:00

Right and this is what I said, you know, as we're talking earlier before we went to the podcast is I want all my staff to go, because it's more about just seeing that we're all in it together and we're on the right path. You know, this is where the world is going.

Speaker 2 35:16

I actually feel moved now. I feel like you know, it's just that feeling in my heart, what you're saying, yeah, yeah yeah, Thank you so much, Sarah.

Speaker 1 35:26

I love your energy, I love what you bring to this space. I love that you work so you know, from your heart with the clients. You work so you know from your heart with the clients, and I'm going to leave your contact details on the show notes. So if anybody wants to contact you, is that okay?

Speaker 2 35:45

Absolutely More than welcome. Happy to have a chat. And if I'm not the right fit. If I can't, I'm happy to help find the right fit.

Speaker 1 35:54

I love that, I love that. So this will be in between all your diving.

Speaker 2 35:59

Yeah, I'm up for air, Sarah. Well, I'm not allowed to dive in winter, which I'm half happy about, so I'm not diving at the moment.

Speaker 1 36:10

Okay good, all right. Thank you, sarah.

Speaker 2 36:12

Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.