The Empowered Parent with Dana Baltutis

Unschooling Series with Paige Carter (Parent, Advocate, Community Leader, Business Owner): Week 6 - Recovery, Stability, Then Expansion: Trusting A Child’s Pace

• Dana Baltutis • Season 3 • Episode 6

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Say yes to slower. That simple pivot—away from pressure and toward real choice—turned a chaotic season into a week with fewer meltdowns, easier car rides, and a hydrotherapy session full of laughter. We open up about parenting a PDA child with low demand strategies, how we detach from outcomes, and why autonomy is not a luxury but a lifeline for regulation.

We dive into the recovery–stability–expansion arc and why families often rush past the stability phase. Fresh from the Perth PDA conference, we share takeaways from psychiatrists and lived-experience voices: meltdowns are involuntary, medication is a careful balancing act, and environments that honour autonomy are central to nervous system safety. The science lands in everyday moments—like offering a late yes or no to hydro, letting go of non-essential demands, and checking our own triggers when a child refuses shoes.

Low Demand Parenting by Amanda Diekman

danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, welcome to the Empowered Parent Podcast with Paige Carter, who is the uh owner of Inclusive Oak. Oh, hello Paige. It's a really late night for us here, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, yes. The ADHD hyperfixation kind of got the best of me tonight and I lost track of time. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

I think both of us did, and we are very committed to bringing you episode every week about this unschooling or deschooling. So, Paige, how has the week been for you and Oakland?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, pretty good. I feel like we are slowly but surely on the track of his nervous system slowly regulating, which is really nice because he's he's been very much in that rest mode of not really playing his PlayStation March again, but and just watching his iPad and just kind of chilling out. But we've had far less meltdowns. We've even gotten in the car a couple of times without a meltdown. We've still had a couple of moments, but not anywhere near like what we were having. So that's really cool. Wow. Uh he's yeah, and he just seems like to have a bit more capacity for just like those things like getting in the car, the things that were really triggering him. Um, and he had a we had hydro on Wednesday and he had a really successful session. It was really beautiful to watch, actually. He engaged in everything, he was laughing and joking with his therapist, and yeah, it was just really, really nice.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, fantastic! And the transition to the hydro was okay, or did you have to do that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, at first he didn't want to go, and I was just gonna cancel and to say that we're not coming. But then I said to him, I like I like he let me get him in these bathers and stuff, no worries. And then I said to him, mate, are we going or not? And he said, No, not. And then he goes, Oh, actually, okay. And then he just got up and went, and I was like, Okay, off we go. So I really just left it to him to decide. And at the last minute, he decided that he wanted to, and he really enjoyed himself.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, I love I love your energy behind that choice, choice making, and that supporting his autonomy. I think that's a really big thing, and he probably felt that and just felt that there was no pressure and he could make the decision himself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, and like like normal, you know, I talked about it the day before, and we I just kind of yeah, I just left it very open-ended to what he wanted.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so Paige, as you know, last Tuesday I went to the inaugural PDA conference in Perth, and the whole time I was thinking about you and Oakland and your family, and basically everything that you are doing now is exactly right, you know, and they were talking about this recovery piece um for young people, and you know, this can take time because yeah, and you really need recovery and before you can get to stability, and then from stability you might be able to get to expansion, but it it could take like you know, even a year, even years, especially after the trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

I've been told between six and twelve months is is like kind of within that typical range of how long it takes to recover. Um so he's been out of school since the start of September. So I feel like we're yeah, like halfway to that six-month mark, obviously. Well, nearly two and a half months-ish. And then yeah, I think going away next year will have a will have a really good impact on his recovery as well, because we can just really slow down and just do things at our pace.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So you've been still very busy, Paige, with packing up and very busy.

SPEAKER_00:

Our house is very empty. Yeah, it's got to the kind of crunch time now. We signed a tenant last week for our house, which is exciting. Right. Um, and we've just, yeah, we're we're really everything is getting packed away now. The only things that are really being left out, the things that are going in the van. And how's Oakland coping with that? He's actually been okay. He's been fine. Like I think I did say last week I wasn't sure how he would go when we got to this point, but he's been fine. He hasn't really, I mean, the couch is still there and the TV in his play station is still there. But our we've taken down all the bed frames now, and um, so our mattresses are on the floor, and he's cooked fine with that. He hasn't like he's been fine with it. So, yeah, so far so good.

SPEAKER_01:

So, does he understand what's happening and that where things are going? Like, how are you working through that with him?

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, so we've been talking about so Oakland's known about our trips, our trip for oh god, like a few months now, four months maybe. Uh well, when hang on, no, when did we get our van? We got our van in August. So he's known about our trip since like mid-August. So we told him then, and so we've been very slowly preparing him for what would happen, talking about you know, our stuff is gonna go in the shed, and we're gonna live in the caravan, and then what we you know, what our trip is gonna look like. He's been very excited about it. He loves going away in a van. So and he kept he always says to me, How many more days now until we travel Australia? I don't think he really fully understands the concept of travelling Australia and how long we'll be gone and how much, you know. What that means, right? Yeah, yeah, like and how much kind of kilometres we do and all of those sorts of things. But he does know that it's big and exciting and it's gonna be the four of us. So yeah. And that he won't need to be going to school. Yes, he definitely, yeah. He he's he doesn't even really ask that anymore. Like he knows that we've just made him really comfortable in the fact that he doesn't ever have to go back if he doesn't want to, and we're just very much on his terms, and if if he wants to, then he absolutely can, and we just kind of take it as it comes, but he he does know that like going back to school if he wants to won't happen until we come back from this trip.

SPEAKER_01:

And what about the van? Does he go into the van? Uh like so he understands what the van is, and yeah, so we had we we had an old van and we did a big trip, like a three-week trip in that last Christmas.

SPEAKER_00:

So we went all the way up to Noosa, like through the middle of Australia, and then we came back by the New South Wales coastline, and he loved going in that van. He understood it very well, and then he he came with us when we pitched, you know, when we were looking for the new van. Him and Lacey both came with us, so yeah, he's very excited. He understands that that where the bed is that he's gonna sleep, and that we have a bathroom and the shower, and we've been away in it a couple of times, so yeah, he really he does understand.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's uh so you've actually been away with him and the family in that van prior to doing the big trip.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yeah, we went on the October long weekend, and we will also be living in the van for a month in Adelaide before we actually leave.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, okay.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So you'll be living on your property in the van?

SPEAKER_00:

No, so we will we're going to a caravan park for two weeks. Then we are staying with family for like the two weeks before Christmas.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so you can then iron out any inconsistencies at any point.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and that's like it. At least we can do it somewhere where we know where we are and we know good places to go, and we've got people around us that we know that could help if we needed it. That's great. That's great, Paige.

SPEAKER_01:

And what about your inclusive collective? How's that going?

SPEAKER_00:

Your little uh yeah, the the inclusion collective is is going good. We've got a few exciting things coming up in there with this week. We have a connection and clarity call, and then next week we have a masterclass, and also our final dinner catch-up is not this Saturday night, the Saturday night after before I leave. So that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, wow, it's coming quick, Paige. Everything's coming quickly now. It really is. We've got this time to journal your journey, you know, getting to the journey. And um seeing, and I'm really, really glad that you know, Oakland's settling now because it's it's midterm now, so that's how long, like you say, from September. It's taken from September, which was you know the end of last term, but still, yeah, it's it's just great that he is now just settling in and and looking forward to something, and you're looking forward to something. And and how's hubby?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, good. Yeah, we've all I think we're we're all just really excited. Everyone talks about how this stage, like the last couple of months before you leave, is super stressful and so overwhelming, and there's so much to do, but we're not feeling like that. We're uh I my my neurodivergent brain needs to have everything kind of planned out, yeah. Otherwise, I will feel very overwhelmed. So, what I'd done is I'd actually written a list of everything that we had to do at our house to prepare to leave. Um I actually broke that down into so like on this weekend, this is what we wanted to achieve. And like I just did it for like six or seven weekends of what we wanted to achieve on that weekend. So now, and we we did all of that. We we just broke it all down into like bite-sized pieces. Okay. Wasn't overwhelming for us, and now that we're you know a week and a half from leaving our house, we're quite content, really. Like, we're like, yep, we've got what we've got left to do is doable in that time.

SPEAKER_01:

That's fantastic. And the other thing is, what a great way to plan, right? So you are a planner, and you know, when you're doing something like that, it is very important to plan. So, Paige, if a family is listening to this episode and they're like, Oh, I'd love to go for a trip, but I don't know where to start. Is that something you could help them with?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, I would love to. And we are going to share our adventures on our on a separate page. I will share a bit on inclusive oak, but we do have a dedicated travel page called Inclusive Adventures. Uh-huh. And uh we're real both Sam and I are going to be posting on there. Sam's actually going to be the main one on that one, so that's exciting. You'll get to see a bit of his crazy antics.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I would love to. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_00:

So, yeah, but we're going to share on there uh to encourage other neurodivergent families and to show them that it absolutely is possible. And you can reach out to us anytime. Like, I don't mind if it's on inclusive oak or inclusive adventures, but I I love travel, it's such a special interest for me. Um, so I would chat about it all day, every day. And if I could help another family see that this is possible for them, that would just be incredible.

SPEAKER_01:

So I think my husband had an idea when he was listening to this episode, well, to this series of the podcast, and he said, maybe Paige needs to put it out there that she's available to come and talk to groups of families for therapists and and things like that. Would you be willing to do something like that as you're traveling around if you happen to be in the neighborhood?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, I'd love to. Um, I am going to actually put things like that out there as I travel around. So my main idea for it so far was for, excuse me, my voice has gone funny. My main idea was for like other autistic families, um, for like coffee catch-ups and park catch-ups and stuff. But yeah, absolutely. I I really want to connect with other therapists and other providers as well on our travels. I would love to go and talk to their families.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I think, you know, at the conference, what I saw the strength in the conference was that it was families with providers together. And, you know, like there were 750 people in the audience, and they kept it at that. And they said there's another 750 that are going to be going on the digital, and there were 3,000, there are 3,000 families of children with PDA in the WA PDA Parent Support Network. Oh wow, justin WA. Justin WA. And it was actually an OT that put uh pulled together Hadi Brandis, who pulled together this amazing conference, but she's also a parent of neurodivergent children. She's also neurodivergent herself, and she basically did this with the parents.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love it. So she was saying that, you know, people were asking, is there going to be another PDA conference in Australia? And she said, Well, we are not organizing it because we spent 14 months organizing it, you know, six ways a six days a week, you know, 15 hours a day, and you've got your work, and you've got your kids, and and and so yeah, I think it's you I could see from that conference that it's very, very needed in terms of you know, the information around PDA. And also, you know, a lot of it. There were psychiatrists that I listened to, you know, I said that last week, but they were pretty amazing. They were showing that there's actually different structures in the brain. So the frontal lobe is not connecting to the other parts of the brain, like the limbic system. And I was just like dumbfounded as to how much work is happening in WA in the area of PDA.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, that's really incredible, isn't it? And do you know one of my core values is connection, right? And like the power of these connections and you know, the possibility of families like mine and yourself, and you know, just people from all around the country coming together to create things like this, even in different states. Like, how cool is that? How cool are those connections to have?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And the change and power that can bring to families like and therapists and provide all different everyone.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, incredible. Yeah, and it was pretty amazing because I sat at a table with four parents, actually, five parents and two professionals. So, like everybody we were at round tables, and you know, and then I was uh and some of these parents were from WA, and I was asking them when the psychiatrist finished talking. I said, you know, are you, you know, can you access psychiatry? And they said, even for them with really great psychiatrists in WA, it's really hard to access, but you've got to put yourself on wait lists. And what I realized from this whole conference was the importance of medical professionals, but really good medical professionals. And they're like I said, the psychiatrists were the really, really, the ones that really understood PDA, and they were talking about the medication, they were talking about you know how to support kids, and that medication, you can't just take one tablet, it's a series because what you're doing is you're activating one part of the brain while you're supporting or controlling another part of the brain, and it's really like an alchemy, it's a really fine art to support these kids. And they said we can't control, we can't control, it's not about curing PDA or changing the child, it's just about giving them that window of regulation that's real calm, yeah. And that's what you as like that's what you've been talking about, you know, yeah, about oak, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And and I think you know, it's across the board everywhere of trying to get into a psychiatrist, let alone a good one that actually understands PDA, it it's really hard, it's really hard, and and there's not enough pediatricians that understand PDA to be able to hold the families up until they get into a psychiatrist. And I think that's why then, like what we discussed last week, families like mine are turning to alternate options like CBD.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I I really understand that, and and I guess the other thing that I learned that was a really big aha moment for me, and it's like a no-brainer, but sometimes you've got to go round the circle to get back there. It was about the continuum of PDA, and there were adults that were that had diagnosis of PDA that were talking, and they were talking about how that has affected them in their childhood and in their adulthood, and how they have supported themselves to have a really good life, right? For themselves. And, you know, that could be that they can't work in a group, they've got to be, you know, like some people are sole business people, they can't be, you know, employees, they've got to be leaders, and you know, and it was just really fascinating to hear and how different environments bring out the PDA in different ways. So a child, um you know, a parent might say, Oh, this child is having huge difficulty with transition to school and blah, blah, blah, and here and there. And they come to a therapy session and they're good as gold. And then, you know, the therapist automatically goes, Oh, it must be a thing that the parent doesn't know how to do, XYZ. But that was not it at all. It's about the child's nervous system, it's triggered, it's like a PTSD response. And like I said in one of my posts, they said that the meltdowns and these triggers are just like sneezes, so it's involuntary, and the kids cannot help, they just do it, and you know, people I can see that in Oakland, he can't help it. No, he cannot help it. Yeah, it's really it was really, really fascinating, and it and it brought out to me that if there is a safe place, you will see the best in your child, and it does take time for the child to recover. It, I mean, they were saying that it takes a lot, that recovery takes a lot of time, and then you get to stability, and you've got to stay in stability before you extend. Extension comes much, much, much, much, much later. And I think as therapists and as some families, right, they go from recovery to extension, they don't stay in stability for long enough, and stability because stability gets like, oh, well, I think they're ready to do it, I think they're ready to go on, but only the child will tell us when they're ready to go on through their behaviors.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it always comes back to following the child's league, right? 100%. Yeah. But also, I think parents need more guidance in how to do that. You know, there's no handbook on how to manage PDA, it's it really is. I found it just like a whole new world, you know. Like I found like I finally had a real good grasp on understanding autism and ADHD in my kids, but then you know, PDA really started to come about, and it was like I just felt like I was learning a whole new world. And that's when I did reach out to Sarah from our PDA kids. I was like, I need you to teach me because I don't like I feel like I'm a fish like a fish out of water here. Yeah, you know, yeah. So I think that there does need to be more education for parents around PDA.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and and there was a parent that was talking from um America, and like I was telling you before we we hopped on, this low demand parenting book is just amazing that she's written, and it's written in a very, very easy to follow way. And she basically, there's a little anecdote here where she talks about you ask your child to put on their shoes, they say no, and then she says straight away, what are you feeling in that moment? What is it triggering for you? Right, and that's going back to when you said, Oakland, do you want to go swimming? And you can't attach yourself to his saying yes or no, right? So you might say, Do you want to go to hydro? But in your mind, you're going, please, please say yes, please say yes, please say yes. The child can feel that. And then what this Amanda Deekman talks about, and I'll put her reference in the notes, what she talks about is that why are you wanting your child, and it's sometimes it's very unconscious, right? This wanting why do you need your child to put their shoes on in this moment, right? Do they really need to put their shoes on in the whole scheme of things? I mean, if there's all these prickles out there and bees and everything else, yes, but at the end of the day, sometimes kids have to go out and experience the prickle.

SPEAKER_00:

And this is yeah, exactly right. Like, I think sometimes it's it's such social norms that we're just conform still conforming to, right? Yes, that it's like, does it really actually matter if we don't do that? And until you actually have that realization and realize how much easier life becomes when you just take away those expectations and just go trying to be polite, stuff the norms, social like stuff who cares about the norms, right? Then like it when you kind of have that like mindset shift, it's so life-changing, really. Like you can just go, oh, okay, that's actually okay. Like it doesn't matter, really. Why what does it matter if my kid goes to goes in the car with just a pair of shorts on?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, what does it matter? Really? Like, who cares? Yeah, and you know, like of course we've got to think about is the child safe, you know, absolutely all of that, but at the same time, it's about that that need for autonomy, you know, and pervasive persistent demand for autonomy is the other way that you know they talk about PDA. That need for autonomy is so ingrained in them, it's like a survival, it's like breathing. Yeah, yeah. Like, and and imagine if someone was, you know, holding your nose and said you can't breathe, you would explode. And that's what happens with PDA when they don't get the autonomy. Because it's like the the stress is so high in the body, they have to control, and that is the only way they control their stress, they can do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. It's it's a very interesting journey, and it's there's just so much to learn. There is.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, thank you so much, Paige, for thank you for having me again. Oh no, I love talking to you, and I love talking about PDA, everything PDA, because I think the more little things that we touch on, you know, families will go, oh yeah, that happens to me, or yes, I can understand that. And and people listening would just understand that it's not something in someone's mind, it's not something volitional or something a child can control, it's uh inbuilt trauma, you know, and it's a trauma response. Basically, we are working with trauma response. Yeah, yeah. All right, thank you so much, Paige. Thank you, and have a good week. You too, thank you. I look forward to next week. Me too. Bye for now. Bye.

Contributor

Dana Baltutis

Host